#324 - Ritesh Patel - The Economics of Live Events

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The biggest thing is that if the
promoter doesn't stay in

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business, nobody gets paid.
And that's kind of that was the

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driving factor in starting the
ticketing company was finding

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ways to unlock margin in a show
that wasn't obvious because

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there's always 5% here, 5%
there, 3% there.

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If you can find ways to unlock
it, that is a way for the show,

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it's going to profit without
raising prices, without doing

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anything sketchy, without
scalping your own tickets.

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There are ways to do it if you
find the right tool kit, if you

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find the right methods.
And that's kind of what we got

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obsessed with.
It's like, you know, if you do

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that in 10 places, you've just
added 50% of the revenue.

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But an E thing is not
particularly remarkable or

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impactful, but them all
together, it's a really big

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deal.
Hello there and thanks for

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joining me today on I don't know
the episode number, but three

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something.
And so I wanted to talk a little

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bit about a couple of events
coming up at LDI this year that

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I am involved in.
And so one we started last year

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which is called Dining with
Dinosaurs.

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And this was based actually on a
conversation that I had on one

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of my podcasts with Scott DeVos.
And Scott said, you know, it'd

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be great if we had like a
networking event in this

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industry that was real low key
and was just a bunch of people

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to getting together and maybe
having some food and exchanging

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conversations about the past and
old stories and stuff like that.

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Like kind of like almost like
geezers of gear, but live in a,

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in a dining setting.
And he said maybe it could be

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called Dining with Dinosaurs.
And boom, you know, the idea was

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born.
And if you know me, you know

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that I don't sit around on ideas
for very long.

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I jump into them and, and create
some sort of a business or a

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foundation around that idea.
And so that's what we did.

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And Scott has helped a lot.
Sarah, I would say, is the

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driving force behind this.
But so last year, Dining with

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Dinosaurs was born.
We had no idea what we were

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doing.
I decided instead of trying to

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do it on our own where you have
to book a hall and have people

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fly in and crazy things, that
would have been a massive

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undertaking and I just don't
have the time or energy to do

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that right now.
But instead of doing that, we

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would tag on with LDIA, very
successful trade show that I've

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been going to myself for over 30
years.

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Jeez.
And so we contacted or I

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contacted LDI, my friends at LDI
and said, hey, we've got this

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idea.
And they were blown away.

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They loved the idea.
I thought they were going to be

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offended dining with dinosaurs.
And they loved it.

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You know, to their credit, they
jumped all over it.

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They were pretty excited about
it, got behind it, even though

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we had no idea what we were
going to do.

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All we knew is you were going to
have these sort of older people

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from the industry.
I think the rule was you had to

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be at least 55 to be a dinosaur.
I don't even remember the exact

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number that we were looking at,
but and men or women from all

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walks of the industry and they
would have dinner and there

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would sort of be these round
tables with younger people or

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people from the industry who
wanted to learn or, or talk with

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or network with these people.
And so it was born.

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And again, we didn't know what
we were doing.

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It was a little sloppy.
But lo and behold, people showed

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up.
I think there were 60 or 70

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people that that actually paid
for a ticket to get into this

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thing last year.
And they had a great time.

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And and, you know, the response
was tremendous, including a lot

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of response from the dinosaurs
who came to me and Sarah and

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told us, you know, they loved
it.

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They want to be involved either
again or in addition, and they

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had suggestions on how we could
improve it.

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And so, you know, Dining with
Dinosaurs, you know, annual

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event, I became year 2 and here
we are.

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And so this year, one of the big
differences is, first of all,

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LDI is 100% behind it.
Secondly, we had a lot of time

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to plan.
So we actually started I think

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in around May or June to plan
for this year.

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Just had another meeting today.
So it's fresh on my mind.

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And the other big difference is
that this year we are tying

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Dining with Dinosaurs into
another event, which I'm also

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involved in.
I'm one of the planners and

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organizers and I don't even know
what my role is going to be the

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day of the event, but it's
called X live concert sessions

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or X live the concert sessions.
And it's, you know, it's been

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called a mini Lititz.
It really isn't a mini

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conference at Lititz.
It's just a one day deep dive

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immersion into several different
topics in concert touring.

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We're not really getting
involved much in, you know, the

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health and the, you know, all of
the things that everyone else is

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getting involved in.
It's more really just related to

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the creative side of it, how to
create a career in this

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business, what can go wrong and
how to get through those types

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of things.
And the list of people involved

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in this are incredible.
You can go to the LDI website

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and look at it, but the list of
people, well, first of all, sort

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of the Co creator, Co organizer
with me is Jake Berry, who, you

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know, I don't really have to
give a big introduction to, you

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know who Jake is.
He was on the podcast a few

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weeks ago again.
And so myself and Jake and of

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course Sarah and then the team
at LDI have been very active in

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in getting this thing built.
So the concept is that the day

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before the show starts, and
because of Formula One, the

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show, now, I don't know if you
know this, but the show doesn't

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start until Sunday.
So instead of starting on

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Thursday like it has for so many
years, the show starts on Sunday

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now and the show will go, I'm
sorry, on Saturday is going to

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be sort of our day.
So Saturday morning, I think at

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9:00 is the beginning of X Live
and that'll go all day till

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5:00.
And then at 5:30, dining with

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dinosaurs starts and it goes, I
believe till 9:30.

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And so dining with dinosaurs is
going to include a bar.

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Of course, this year we're going
to have drinks with it.

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So it's going to be dining and
drinking with dinosaurs.

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And of course, you don't have to
drink.

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We're not promoting alcohol
consumption, but I'm sure there

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will be some.
And the dining isn't going to be

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a sit down dinner or lunch like
it was last year, which I felt

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like just slowed the whole thing
down and got made it a bit

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boring in that middle section.
And some people just didn't have

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time to eat either.
So now it's going to be more

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like if you've ever been to an
upstaging party at the Wynn,

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people walking around with trays
of food, probably not as good as

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the upstaging party at the Wynn
because that food is just

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tremendous.
That party's been legendary for

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years.
But yeah, so it'll just be

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people walking around with with
hors d'oeuvres and snacks and

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little mini burgers and
whatever.

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And so you can eat and have a
drink and talk with some

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incredible people.
And I've got a list of the

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dinosaurs that we have signed
up.

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We actually have a waiting list
now of people who want to be

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dinosaurs.
It's that popular now.

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So it's going to be a lot of
fun.

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Like I just think it's going to
be one of those networking

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events that you really, really
want to be at.

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And I'll tell you one of the
things that that myself and

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Sarah have fought really hard
for is just the value, you know,

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for it to be not expensive.
And when you think of something

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that's being held in a
Convention Center and includes

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drinks, open bar and food,
you've got to be thinking that's

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going to be $1000.
You know, like a beer in a

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Convention Center is 15 bucks or
whatever.

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And but LDI has managed to to
get it down to, I think it's one

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O 9 right now, but it goes up at
some point soon because the

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early bird deal is one O 9.
And I think it goes up to 129.

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And then eventually, like at the
time of the show, it's probably

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going to be 149.
So but, and that's one of the

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only couple of stand alone
tickets at the entire LDI show.

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So we're kind of proud of that
too.

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Everything else you have to buy
the big full conference pass to

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get into, but this you can get
in with just a single ticket.

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So if you have free exhibit
passes, you can just buy this

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ticket and that'll get you into
dining with dinosaurs.

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Or if you want to do the full
day conference the X live, I

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believe that's 5:50-ish.
And don't shoot me in the head

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if I get this wrong by 10 bucks,
but it's around 5:50.

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And that includes the full day
deep dive learning, educational

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thing, plus dining with
dinosaurs.

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So yeah.
And there's going to be swag.

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There's going to be all kinds of
cool people involved.

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And I think it's going to be an
incredible day and a great way

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to open up the show.
And hopefully this becomes an

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annual event where every year we
open the show with these two

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events on the Saturday before
the show.

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So that is Dining with Dinosaurs
and X Live.

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For more information, I guess
you go directly to the LDI show

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website and you can learn an
awful lot about both of those

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events.
I know for a fact that they are

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going to be great.
And certainly I'm most friendly

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with Dining with Dinosaurs
because it really was, pun

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intended, hatched on Gears of
Gear and and we'll be very

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closely tied to geezers of gear
now and in the future.

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So we're pretty excited about
that.

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And so yesterday or the day
before, Craig Mitchell from LMG

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put out a video on, I think it
was LinkedIn or Facebook.

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I can't remember which platform
it was, but it was a video from

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a guy called Maxonomics is his,
is his YouTube channel.

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And it was about ticketing in
our industry and just sort of

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the problems with ticketing and
with Ticketmaster and with all

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of this stuff.
And it's an incredible

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coincidence that we've booked a
gentleman today who is in the

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ticketing industry.
And so I'm going to want to talk

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to him a lot about this.
But if you haven't seen this

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video, please go look at it.
Go go to YouTube and search for

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Maxonomics, Ticketmaster or
Maxonomics.

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You could actually, it talks a
lot about the Taylor Swift

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heiress tour.
So you could look up Taylor

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Swift heiress, Maxonomics.
And it's just, it's, it was very

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educational for me.
I knew a lot of this stuff was

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going on, but there's stuff like
that I didn't know which we're

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going to talk about on the
podcast today, including, you

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know, bots working for scalpers
that are out grabbing tickets at

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an incredible rate.
So I hope you enjoyed today's

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podcast.
It is with Ritesh Patel, who is

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the Co founder and CEO of the
ticket Ferry, an all in one

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ticketing and marketing platform
helping events and venues grow

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revenue, cut risk and fight
scalping, which will be a great

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conversation today.
He's also the founder of Locust,

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a destination drum and bass
festival in Mexico and Bali.

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With over 20 years in live, live
entertainment and a background

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in tech, Ritesh combines
creative and technical expertise

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to solve the toughest challenges
facing event producers today.

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His motto?
Leave the house and good things

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happen.
So please join me and welcome

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Ritesh to Geez of Gear.
Hey, Ritesh, how are you?

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Hey.
How are you myself?

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Very good to meet you.
I've actually been looking

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forward to this because not only
am I in this space and, and so I

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look forward to talking about
the whole ticketing platform

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stuff, but I'm a tech guy too.
And I'm one of the rare, I guess

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people in our industry who is
heavily into tech, where I'm not

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talking about sound tech or
lighting tech or whatever.

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I'm talking about actual
technology platforms and things

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like that.
So I'm looking forward to having

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those conversations with you as
well.

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So, you know, I'm not even
really sure where to start

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'cause there's so much to to go
on here.

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But you know, one of the big
things, I guess we can start

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with, well, before you were a
ticketing guy, you were a a

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festival guy, right?
So I, yeah, I started in club

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shows in 2000, so like super
underground gigs in the UK in

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the drawer and base scene, which
is notoriously one of the

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hardest scenes to make any money
from whatsoever, yeah.

222
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,760
I can imagine.
You know, it's like the Super

223
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,280
underground gigs, low ticket
prices, you're especially if

224
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,680
you're breaking new talent, like
you know, it's it's a lose,

225
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,720
losing scenario for two out of
three gigs.

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00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,920
And so like, you know, like any
promoter who does stuff in

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00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,040
either in the first few years or
just in underground music in

228
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,360
general, you're subsidizing it
with with a day job.

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00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:27,160
So I kind of when really heavy
on on tech when I was a kid and

230
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,200
started building software during
high school.

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00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,920
And so like I got to college,
found music and pies and the

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00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,600
drawing base scene and decided
that I'd already done all the

233
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,240
tech I needed to in my teenage
years.

234
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,920
And suddenly throwing raves was
my new passion.

235
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,640
So that kind of took took over
my life for a while and then

236
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,800
over like a decade basically did
two things in parallel, throwing

237
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,280
gigs and then working in tech.
So yeah, it's definitely been

238
00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:00,440
like, I think at one point I was
sleeping 2 hours a night.

239
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,000
Oh my God.
Growing 5 gigs a month, full

240
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,640
time job in tech and then all
the parties that go with the

241
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,760
scene was pretty intense.
Yeah, you know, it's funny how

242
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,320
close the two, like the border
between tech and, and whether

243
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,760
it's EDM or or drum and bass or
whatever.

244
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,600
It's it's amazing how closely
aligned those two are because,

245
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,080
you know, I know so many tech
guys and CEOs and stuff who, who

246
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,000
go to Burning Man, for example,
you know, with their massive

247
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,720
rigs and stuff.
But but still it's it's the

248
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,120
cultures sort of connect, I
guess.

249
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:38,840
There is a commonality I've
I've.

250
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,840
I've only really just figured it
out.

251
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,280
And so just let's just say my
scene, for example, not

252
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,880
electronic music in general, it
seems like what we've discovered

253
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,000
is drum and bass is a genre is
full of neurodivergent people

254
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,480
who all found a tribe and it's
not that different to the text

255
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,600
scene.
Yeah, interesting.

256
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,640
So drum and bass, I admittedly
know nothing about it, but I

257
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,080
know the music, but I don't
really know the culture or the

258
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,920
events or anything.
So can I assume that they're

259
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,960
smaller sort of ravy kinds of
events, not necessarily like big

260
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,040
EDM festivals?
Yeah, absolutely.

261
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,360
And even when it's got to a
point where the commercial

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00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,880
artists in the because DNB goes
through phases of being

263
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,080
commercial and popular and then
suddenly, you know, like

264
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,960
everyone jumps on it.
And and then after a few years,

265
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,160
it's like drawing bass is dead.
And suddenly, you know, there's

266
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,560
a mixed MAGA school that says
drawing bass is dead and all the

267
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,360
major labels that were super on
it drop it.

268
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,560
And because it's no longer the
core thing.

269
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,880
And in the periods of time where
it's popular, it does end up you

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00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,560
can do big gigs, but only in the
kind of like top ten artists

271
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,480
like you would in any genre
That's like, you know, 10 right?

272
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:02,160
And those shows, they might get
2003 thousand 5000 people, but

273
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,040
they're more like headliner
concert acts rather than like,

274
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,320
you know, a promo and, and, and,
and the bigger promoters are the

275
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,920
ones that do those because the
the fees are too high for an

276
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,000
independent to actually even do
those gigs.

277
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,800
But they're not, they're
definitely not the 1020 thousand

278
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,320
person headline shows.
There's one exception in the UK,

279
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,800
which is Boomtown Fair, which
which comes out of Bristol and

280
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,120
it's built its reputation on
pushing drum, bass and reggae

281
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,440
and dubstep and that whole bass
music culture.

282
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,760
And they grew to about 60,000
people.

283
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,080
But that's about as big as you.
And that's, that's like, that's

284
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,480
an anomaly.
Like that doesn't usually

285
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,760
happen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

286
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,120
You know, especially in a world
where EDM festivals have gotten

287
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,280
so completely, insanely huge at
this point.

288
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,080
Like some of them are just,
what's the one in Saudi?

289
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,640
What's that one called?
Oh, so there's middle beast in

290
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,080
Saudi, which is insane.
Yeah, yeah.

291
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,960
I think that's like 500 people
or something.

292
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,079
Exactly.
Yeah, that one's huge.

293
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,480
And but it's weird because it's
a real crossover kind of thing.

294
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,520
Like I think Metallica played
there last year.

295
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,359
And so, you know, it's very, I
think a lot of them are becoming

296
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,040
that actually a lot of the sort
of music festivals are sort of

297
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,880
seeing EDM merge into them.
Like I saw there was some stuff

298
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,040
at, what was it?
Lollapalooza now has a bunch of

299
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,920
EDM or DJs anyways.
I don't know if you call it EDM,

300
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,480
but there's DJs that are acts
throughout that thing along with

301
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,200
bands.
Yeah, and, and, and it depends

302
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,760
on which, where the that
festival started originally and

303
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,560
then how it moves to almost to
center right.

304
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:52,000
So like I still in Australia in
I think 2009 and they had two

305
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,480
main stages and there was
alternating acts.

306
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,760
So like, you know, an act, an
act would play that stage would

307
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,280
go into changeover, then the
next stage would start.

308
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,120
And if they were like literally
next to each other.

309
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,840
And I remember that the
mainstage had Rage Against the

310
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,800
Machine on the left and Bjork on
the right and, and it was like,

311
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,760
OK, well I went there for Bjork
and I was loving it.

312
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,840
But all the Rage fans were
booing Bjork because they were

313
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,440
waiting for Rage to come on.
And it was the same but just the

314
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,160
2 next to each other with
different production.

315
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,160
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.

316
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,560
No, but again, even Metallica
alongside EDM acts is just, I

317
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,200
mean, I guess Metallica is a lot
more mainstream now than they

318
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,680
were in the 80s or whatever, but
it's still very strange to me

319
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,640
that that those two acts.
I think bands were electronic

320
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,680
artists like pendulum really
facilitated things like that

321
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,640
because they started as
underground as underground drama

322
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,400
based producers and an event.
But the two of the three band

323
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,920
member, two of the three members
of pendulum came from a like

324
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,040
rock, punk, metal background.
And So what they ended up doing

325
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,480
is creating a live act from the
a Ridge from the pendulum like

326
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,200
drawing base electronic music
origins and you know, did a

327
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,680
pendulum live show.
But if you watch a Pendulum live

328
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,120
show, it might as well be like
Metallica style, you know,

329
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:15,600
they've, they've got the vocals,
we've got the emo vibes, they've

330
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,680
got like, you know, the the kind
of metal punk energy to that

331
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,120
gig.
And you would never think that

332
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,720
it's an electronic music show.
Interesting.

333
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,280
I'm going to, I'm going to have
to look that up.

334
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,120
I, I don't know them, but I'm
going to check them out.

335
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,040
And you know, I like, you know,
again, I'm an old guy, I grew up

336
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,680
with 70s and 80's rock and, but
I really like a lot of the

337
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,400
merged music now.
Like, you know, for example,

338
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,440
Black Country artists, you're
starting to see a lot more Black

339
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,040
Country artists and they tend to
bring a little more soul, a

340
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,840
little more R&B into country
music.

341
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,440
And I love some of that stuff,
like some of that that sort of

342
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,560
merged genres.
I really like the end result

343
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,760
from it.
And even, you know, country to

344
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,680
rock has become much more
merged.

345
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,920
You you're starting to see,
well, I mean, years ago you saw

346
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,160
the the hip hop guys that were
starting to put out rock stuff

347
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,200
and you're starting to see some
of that become a little, you

348
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,160
know, ubiquitous.
And I like it.

349
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,720
I like merged styles.
Thank you for joining me today

350
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,480
on Geezers of Gear.
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by Delicate Productions.
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376
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,800
You see, I had this conversation
literally about three hours ago.

377
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,840
We were talking about this
fusion element of a lot of the

378
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,240
modern artists.
And like, you know, you take

379
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,200
someone like Doja Cat and it's
like, it's not quite hip hop,

380
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:12,880
it's not quite pop, it's not
quite electronic, and it's a

381
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,400
fusion of all of them.
True.

382
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,800
Yeah, True, true.
And I like that.

383
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,760
So you were doing these
festivals straight out of

384
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,320
college basically?
Right.

385
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,680
I did club shows and then the
festival that I produce now is

386
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,880
the same drum and bass brand
from the early 2000s having kind

387
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,840
of taken 10 years off to build,
to build ticket ferry on the

388
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,880
ticketing side.
We we launched the the ticket

389
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,800
platform in Mexico in Tulum in
early 2021 through just having

390
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,280
beach venues in Mexico as a
client.

391
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,320
There was this kind of I guess
you know how it goes once you've

392
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,240
been a promoter, you're always a
promoter like, you know, even if

393
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,840
you've lost loads of money doing
it, you always, you know, you

394
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,400
walk into a field or a warehouse
or some random space and you're

395
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,400
like, oh, I could throw a really
cool party here.

396
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,000
And the kind of that that
happened and I and I approached

397
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,440
one of the venues, I was one of
our ticketing clients and I was

398
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,800
like, hey, there is a big gap in
the market for a multi day

399
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,760
destination drone base festival.
It does not exist in the

400
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,080
Americas.
And there's a huge market

401
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,440
opportunity to do it.
And took a year to convince them

402
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,520
because Salome is all house
music at house and techno for

403
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,480
them to even understand what I
wanted to do.

404
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,040
And I was like, right, let's
let's launch a festival and then

405
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,440
let's use my ticketing and
marketing tech to actually run

406
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,960
the show.
And so it was a real convergence

407
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,400
of, you know, like 2025 years
of, of different elements of

408
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,560
things are done.
So this was sort of simultaneous

409
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,120
like you were doing these events
and then I assume there was some

410
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,520
there was a need that you had
discovered for a different type

411
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,240
of ticketing platform.
Was it just to get away from

412
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,040
like Ticketmaster or did
Ticketmaster not exist for these

413
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,920
types of events?
You know what it was?

414
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,720
It was, I'd thrown 450 shows
across the UK and Australia of

415
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,360
various sizes.
And the one thing that you kind

416
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,320
of realize is that everything
is, I was, let's switch it

417
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,400
around.
Nothing is predictable, right?

418
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,400
So I could have a gig that I
think is going to sell out.

419
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,000
Everyone says they're going to
for some reason, you know,

420
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,720
there's a sports game or it
rains or whatever it is and you

421
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,960
actually end up losing a bunch
of money.

422
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,720
And then there's others where
you've sold next to no pre

423
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,360
sales, but it's a slam dunk and
it's packed, right?

424
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,320
You've only done 50 pre sales,
but there's 500 people in the

425
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,080
room.
The thing that was really

426
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,240
consistent is that basically
every promoter needs just that

427
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,160
extra push of the 10 or 20% more
in, in sales, right?

428
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,320
Like that's why they're going to
get you from a loss to a break

429
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,240
even or a break even to profit.
And I'd been working in AD tech

430
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,560
in, I was living in Australia at
the time and I'd been working in

431
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,640
AD tech figuring out how like
affiliate marketing works, how

432
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,440
ad clicks work, how conversions
work.

433
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,480
You know, how digital marketing
is, is, is built and on the back

434
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,760
end.
And I was working, working an ad

435
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,280
network where I was building
the, the big data infrastructure

436
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,280
for these ad networks.
And I was like, wait a second,

437
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,760
like there is a way you can use
utilize ad tech to help

438
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,640
promoters to actually generate
more revenue, especially the

439
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,960
unsophisticated promoters we
haven't quite discovered adds

440
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,800
additional marketing.
This was like 2009, 2010, there

441
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,560
was this brain wave and I was
like, I think I've got it.

442
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,520
And basically it was what, you
know, you get those I like bulb

443
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,560
moments where you think, I
think, I think we have something

444
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,560
big.
And I was, I was literally on

445
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,960
the bus on the way home on a
Sunday And you know, you just

446
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,640
like gasped yourself in like, oh
shit, this is a big deal.

447
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:57,080
And basically what came into my
head was if I built a ticketing

448
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,720
platform that looks like a
ticketing platform, but upon

449
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,800
someone buying a ticket to a
show, the platform would tell

450
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,440
them, hey, you've got your
ticket, the credit card

451
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,440
transaction went through,
everything is cool, that

452
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,760
ticket's in your inbox.
How would you like your money

453
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,680
back?
If you want a full refund on

454
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,320
your ticket, why don't you
promote the show and help the

455
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,520
promote to drive more sales?
And if you do that.

456
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,480
Concept.
Your money refunded.

457
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,960
Yeah, yeah, Way to sign up an
affiliate like right at the

458
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,720
point of sale, you know,
Perfect.

459
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,360
Well.
I mean, you've got the right

460
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000
they just click submit on their
credit card.

461
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,600
Info Not only have you got their
attention, but you've got a fan,

462
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,400
you've got somebody who has
already purchased the product.

463
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,480
Who better than I used to call
them sneezers, which I stole

464
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,560
from Seth Godin a long, long
time ago.

465
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,080
But basically people who take
something that they've bought a

466
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,800
a new iPhone and you know, go
out and tell everyone about it.

467
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,600
Like some people just buy it
quietly and use it and they're

468
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,080
good.
Other people like me tend to go

469
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,680
tell everyone this is the
greatest device ever.

470
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,160
You need to have one of these.
And those are the people you

471
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,640
want to snag right at that point
of.

472
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,280
Sale Here's the thing those two
people will likely feel the same

473
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,080
about that device that iPhone
they bought right One is telling

474
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,240
people the other one isn't and
like up until that kind of this

475
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:24,720
idea was in my head.
The way ticketing worked and

476
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,320
actually still works with
everyone else is that you see

477
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,360
the gig, you go through the
checkout, you pay your money

478
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,440
soon as you you get you realize
that the payments gone through

479
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,840
you close the tab immediately.
You find the e-mail three or six

480
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,800
months later and you you pull up
your ticket and you go to the

481
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,320
gig and it's kind of like, well
why wouldn't you take someone

482
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,720
that's spend money on a show
they have assigned value.

483
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,280
They don't want to go by
themselves and just push that

484
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,920
idea into their head while you
have the way, while you they're

485
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,400
looking at the screen and go be
like, well, you're going to want

486
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,720
to go with friends anyway.
And why don't you?

487
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,000
And, and, and if we do that with
every buyer, we've just created

488
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,720
an army of affiliates and
distribution of people that are

489
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,680
willingly paying for this gig
who will willingly ask other

490
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,640
people to pay for this gig
because they assign that show of

491
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,600
value themselves.
So but how do the economics work

492
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,080
on that?
Like how many tickets does a

493
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,040
person have to sell to recover
their?

494
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,120
So what we modeled it is that if
you can drive 2 more sales, you

495
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:28,880
get 10% of your money back.
If you can drive 5 sales, you

496
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,360
get 30% of your money back.
And if you can drive 8, it used

497
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:35,600
to be 10 but now it's 8, you get
100% refund and you go for free

498
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,720
and.
Only 8 tickets.

499
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,960
You got to sell your tickets and
you get your ticket for free.

500
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,600
That's pretty cool.
Only 8 And The thing is, we get

501
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,840
people who have sought who then
end up generating like 20-30

502
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680
fifty tickets, right?
And the promoter can optionally

503
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,480
choose to give them some sort of
benefit.

504
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,920
It could be AVIP upgrade.
It could be a backstage thing,

505
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,560
could be an artist meet and
greet.

506
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,360
You know, that is up to the
promoter.

507
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:00,920
But like you get your ticket
money back.

508
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,800
And the benefit of you driving
more sales is that you've just

509
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,240
got a bigger crew to go with.
Like you've you've you've

510
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,920
enhanced the experience for
yourself and you've got it for

511
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,280
free.
And you know, the the promoter

512
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,560
gets accelerated sales, they get
early revenue, they get more

513
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,680
visibility into the show's going
to be a success.

514
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,640
And they can figure out like if
they if we sell them out six

515
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,960
weeks earlier than they would
have done without this, they can

516
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,680
do another gig.
They can expand capacity.

517
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,560
They don't have to spend spray
and prey marketing right right

518
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,520
up into the lead up of the gig
like a lot of benefits.

519
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,520
So what?
What percentage of buyers take

520
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,080
you up on this?
Surprisingly, over 30% of

521
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,280
buyers.
That's wild.

522
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,560
Wow, what a great concept.
I love that.

523
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,640
I'm going to, I'm going to steal
that and, and use it in my

524
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,680
business.
You know, go sell this piece of

525
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,280
gear over here and we'll get you
your money back.

526
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,640
No, that's very cool.
For 50 years, ETC has made a

527
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,240
name for itself in the world of
entertainment technology.

528
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,680
You can find ETC products in
buildings of every size across

529
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,760
the entire globe.
Broadway shows, rock concerts,

530
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,760
sports stadiums, outdoor parks,
TV studios and convention

531
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,040
centers, you name it.
They have all trusted ETC to

532
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,000
make their spaces beautiful and
safe.

533
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,840
Many of these spaces include
rigging systems to keep them

534
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,920
running smoothly and safely.
Fortunately, ETC Rigging offers

535
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a range of hoists and controls
to accommodate the unique needs

536
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,320
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budgets.

537
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Etcs, motorized hoists and hoist
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538
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technology including stage
curtains, lighting equipment,

539
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backdrops, projection screens
and more.

540
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And the recent addition of
Prodigy Balance, a new

541
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,320
counterweight rigging solution
for loads up to 1200 lbs, brings

542
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more options to venues looking
for safe, user friendly rigging.

543
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,360
If you need backstage rigging
that is easy to learn and safe

544
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use, Prodigy Balance could be

545
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ETC is known for its customer

546
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547
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548
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549
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Each person building the rigging
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550
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551
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555
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For the latest DTC products and
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556
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Connect dot.
SO one of the big questions I

557
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,120
have about your your business
ticket ferry.

558
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,640
So is it sort of off the beaten
path or are you now going real

559
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,040
mainstream with the ticketing,
you know, a pop back playing

560
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
arena?
I mean, arenas are a tricky one,

561
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,680
right?
Because, you know, typically the

562
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,200
venues are managed or operated
by the live nations and the

563
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,720
ticket masks of the world.
We'll do the odd arena show.

564
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,120
Sometimes it'll be outside of
music.

565
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,120
So like we're doing a, we're
ticketing a 23rd.

566
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,560
And this isn't exclusively
ticketing.

567
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,600
We're exclusively ticketing a
20,000 person E sports and

568
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,160
gaming final in Budapest, for
example.

569
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,280
And that's fully seat mapped.
And that's, it's a, it's a

570
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,600
proper arena.
And so we'll do those every so

571
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,160
often.
Or like, for example, we're

572
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,280
ticketing Twitchcon in San Diego
in October.

573
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,880
That's 30,000 people.
And you know, that's like Amazon

574
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,800
and Twitch.
It's a it's a big, big corporate

575
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,520
event.
So we do do stuff up pretty big

576
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,200
scale, but it's also available
to all the independent promoters

577
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,200
or the kind of the festivals
that are doing 10/20/30 thousand

578
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,680
people like it.
It supports all scales.

579
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,920
The I guess the biggest thing
for us is that, you know, what

580
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,040
toolkit can we build beyond just
taking the payment that's going

581
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,920
to help the gig to streamline
everything from conversions to

582
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,920
OPS to internal processes to
guest list, you know, everything

583
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,720
in between.
Like we've we talked to

584
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,800
promoters so closely and figure
out where their bottlenecks are

585
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,000
and one by one solve them and
all scale was like, you're going

586
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,080
to have bottlenecks.
You just need to someone to come

587
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,200
in and build the solution for
you.

588
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Well, and I guess that you and
the promoters are aligned and

589
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,640
that you're both trying to
compete against, you know, the,

590
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,960
the juggernaut out there,
obviously.

591
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,640
And so does that, does that make
you, you know, obvious partners,

592
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,600
I guess with the, with the more
independent promoters or the

593
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,520
smaller promoters or whatever,
Because again, they're, they're

594
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,400
fighting against Live Nation,
obviously.

595
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,800
They are now The thing is that
we don't necessarily fight

596
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,720
against Live Nation because we
never compete for the same deal

597
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,320
as right like I'm never going to
try and get the ticketing

598
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,800
contract for a Live Nation venue
because that would be silly.

599
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,440
Why?
Why would I even try to do that?

600
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,240
But the one thing that has been
become really clear over the

601
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,600
years is that no matter how big
you are as a promoter, whether

602
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,360
you are Live Nation, whether you
are someone who's really

603
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,600
starting out, is that at every
scale you're at, you have

604
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,760
problems and needs solving.
Like if your gig is not selling

605
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,840
out, you need to get to the
point of selling out.

606
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,000
Once you're sold out, your
problem is scalping.

607
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,880
If you 100,000 people showing up
all at once on the door, your

608
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,440
problem is streamlined gates and
making sure that the scanning

609
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,280
doesn't fail.
Once you've got that, you've got

610
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,679
all the moving parts and
operations of multiple stages

611
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,639
and artist logistics and
advancing like every.

612
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,040
So people used to tell me like,
why would a gig the cells out

613
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,679
need you?
And I was like, well, it doesn't

614
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,360
matter because at every point
there's a new problem or there's

615
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,760
a new set of problems once you
hit a certain scale and

616
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,960
threshold.
So if we've built all those

617
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,560
tools, then that's fine.
We've all, we've always got

618
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,960
plans.
Yeah.

619
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,840
But at the same time, I mean,
when you're competing against a

620
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,120
or, or working alongside or
working in the same business as

621
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,200
someone like a Live Nation,
where they do have, you know, I

622
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,640
guess arguably a monopoly in
that they have the artist

623
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,280
contracts and the venues and the
ticketing.

624
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,840
And you know, they have a pretty
360 grab on on some of those

625
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,680
situations, whether it's, you
know, festivals or, or touring

626
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,200
or sporting events or, or, or,
or right.

627
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,400
Like they, they really do have a
fairly large grip on things

628
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,680
right now.
So, but like, I, I can't even

629
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,560
imagine how hard it is to work
against them.

630
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,280
But again, like you're saying,
it's, it's a different scale,

631
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,640
it's different venues, it's
different, whatever.

632
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,240
Yes, I don't really come across
that challenge when it comes to

633
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:48,440
Live Nation Ticketmaster.
Interesting.

634
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,360
Because of the the promoters
that we, we are not working

635
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,520
with, sometimes we'll actually
work within a Live Nation

636
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,360
ecosystem.
So like for example, we ticket a

637
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,840
portion of EDC Las Vegas and
it's that fine dining experience

638
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,240
inside EDC and it's a multi day
experience where you book a time

639
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:09,200
slot like a dinner reservation.
And then it's got like a, you

640
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,520
know, entertainment and food and
like, you know, open bar and

641
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,560
whatever for an hour.
And then so we power the

642
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,080
bookings for those slots.
And, you know, so like we do

643
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,000
often, not often, but sometimes
cross into the ecosystem.

644
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,760
But more often than not, like,
you know, it's one of the big

645
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,800
independents who's who's raised
a lot of money that I'm

646
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,960
competing against, not the Live
Nation ticketmasters.

647
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,000
Right.
Interesting because, you know, I

648
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,280
know I know some independent
promoters who have just given up

649
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,480
and gone into a different
business or done something else

650
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,440
because it's just, you know, in
most markets, they own at least

651
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,680
one venue, sometimes more than
one.

652
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:50,640
And, you know, they, they have
some tactics that make it very

653
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,880
difficult for some of these
independent promoters to, to be

654
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,960
able to get artists even, you
know, because they'll overpay an

655
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,880
artist to play their venue
instead.

656
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,600
And then they'll lock them out
for the next 18 months or

657
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,640
whatever their contract is.
And you can't play any other

658
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,160
venues in this particular local
or, or region or whatever.

659
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,800
So yeah, I don't know, like it.
The 20 shows and instead of just

660
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,720
the one then it seems to track
management of the artist, right?

661
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,000
Of course, Yeah, of course.
And you know, it's it's sort of

662
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,280
a catch 22 as well because the
artist doesn't necessarily want

663
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,600
to be owned by that big
corporation.

664
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,760
But at the same time, you know,
it's guaranteed payment.

665
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,160
And what are you going to do?
Right?

666
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,720
Say no.
But so just a couple of days

667
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:38,600
ago, maybe even yesterday, a
gentleman from a large supplier

668
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,960
in our industry called LMG,
Craig Mitchell, posted on his

669
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,360
social media a link to a video
from someone called Maxonomics

670
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,880
on YouTube.
And it was all about some of the

671
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,360
issues, I guess, with regard to
the process and economics in the

672
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,920
ticketing world and what that's
done to pricing, what that's

673
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,440
done to the sort of entire
ecosystem.

674
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520
And some of it I knew, some of
it I completely understood.

675
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,360
You know, like he went back and
said, you know, artists used to

676
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,600
tour to support record sales.
You know, you, you went out and

677
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,080
played live so that people would
buy your albums.

678
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,960
And obviously that shifted and
then artists had to focus on

679
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,960
touring as a business, as a
profit generating business

680
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,240
because that's how they earn
now.

681
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,040
And so that's obvious.
We've all known that for some

682
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,880
time.
But where it became a little

683
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,480
less obvious is just like I've
always known that scalping was a

684
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,040
big problem, but they lean in
pretty hard into the into the

685
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,600
business of, of scalpers and
into Taylor Swift in particular.

686
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,160
They looked at the, the Eris
tour and, you know, showed how

687
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,320
many premium seats there were
overall for the whole tour, I

688
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,520
think was 152 shows and there
were something like 1.5 million

689
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,560
premium seats.
It's roughly 10,000 seats per

690
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,840
gig in a in a stadium that are
floor seats.

691
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:06,800
And even though her model was
four, I think it was 449 was the

692
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,880
highest price for a ticket,
which were floor seats and it

693
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,840
was $49.00 for cheap seats.
Nobody had access to those

694
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,000
because they ended up like in
some cases, 40 to 50% of the

695
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,240
tickets were bought by scalpers
and fairly specifically bots.

696
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,040
And I didn't know about this
prior.

697
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,200
So some of the things that I
saw, here's just a few stats

698
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,640
from this video that I found
really, really interesting.

699
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,920
So all of the tickets for the
Aris tour went on sale on

700
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:44,600
November 15th, 2022 at 10 AM.
And within a very short period

701
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,520
of time, within like two or
three hours, there were 13

702
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,840
billion requests for tickets.
And there's only, what, 8 1/2

703
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,760
billion people in the world?
I think there were 13 billion

704
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520
requests for tickets, the sites
crashing and all kinds of

705
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,880
technical problems.
People waited online, in line

706
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,800
online for six hours in some
cases.

707
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,680
You know, these crazy Swifties.
And while they're waiting

708
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,560
online, they're looking at
secondary sites who already had

709
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,960
tickets for anywhere from 5 to
$30,000 for floor seats.

710
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,280
So this was like the Super Bowl
for these scalpers who suddenly

711
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,600
had this this margin.
And so by the way, those 1.5

712
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,880
million tickets, I think it was
something like $650 million in

713
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,040
revenue for the entire tour for
floor seats, but yet those sold

714
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,800
for somewhere between 3:00 and
$5 billion.

715
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,440
So just an insane amount of
profit basically if you got your

716
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,560
hands on a floor seat at face
value, you could 10X relatively

717
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,800
quickly selling it on a
secondary site.

718
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,240
So, and I guess the big one you
probably know is is prestige.

719
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:01,320
Who they, they typically are
able to buy hundreds of tickets

720
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,000
per second using bots.
Just prestige.

721
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,120
And I guess Ticketmaster sued
them and they ended up settling

722
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:12,800
out of court.
And one of the stats too that

723
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:19,280
they said was in 2017, Prestige
bought 40% of all Hamilton

724
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,880
tickets when Hamilton launched
on Broadway.

725
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,000
I mean, just incredible stats.
I just couldn't believe it when

726
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,040
I was reading this stuff.
Crazy.

727
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,560
So if you if you don't mind, I'd
like just I have a few thoughts

728
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:34,880
and insights into this already.
That's.

729
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,280
Exactly why I brought it up to
you.

730
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,360
You're the expert.
I guess let's, let's talk about

731
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:41,880
kind of the economics of
scalping, right?

732
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,760
On one side, you've got the, the
buyers of the tickets, so the,

733
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,600
the, the companies that are
buying them up using bots who

734
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,000
want to flip them and make a
profit.

735
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,320
And you've got the fans who are
getting basically pushed out of

736
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,600
the main on sale and have been
forced to buy on secondary.

737
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,120
Then you've got the secondary
sites that are allowing those

738
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,320
resellers to, to, to list and
obviously charging fees on each

739
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,960
resale, which are, you know,
they probably make as much as

740
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,040
the face value of the ticket
just on the resale fees.

741
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,960
So they love being that
marketplace, right?

742
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,400
Of course then the artists kind
of gets told by their fans that,

743
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,640
you know, they're being, they're
being screwed over by the resale

744
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,400
marketplaces and you kind of
like, well, why wouldn't like?

745
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,560
So we in 2014, we launched a
face value only resale system

746
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,120
within our platform so that if
you bought a ticket through the

747
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,800
system, you could just go into
your account, hit sell, pick,

748
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,320
whether it was going to someone
you knew or whether it was going

749
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,240
to a wait list for a sold out
show.

750
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,920
And you were forced to name
every ticket.

751
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,560
And if the promoter wanted to
win to be anti scalping, they

752
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,000
could enforce the name on the
ticket against the ID you show

753
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,680
at the door of the gig.
And that is actually the

754
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,840
solution, right?
And then you think, why doesn't

755
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,920
everyone do that?
And then some people are

756
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,160
proponents of like, well, if
it's a free market, like, you

757
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,720
know, someone owns something,
they're they're they have the

758
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,400
right to sell it on, but
actually they don't really own a

759
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:07,800
ticket.
They own a license to enter the

760
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,680
venue, right?
So they're, it's not really an

761
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,600
own, it's, it's they're owning
permission to go into the gig.

762
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,360
So they don't really own the
ticket.

763
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,680
So why should they be able to
make money out of it?

764
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,120
B People go all that, you know,
like the promoter should really

765
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,880
be able to benefit from the
resale and they don't, which is

766
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,640
true.
But then the other side of this,

767
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,800
which rarely gets considered,
is, let's say that in this

768
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,640
scenario, right, the ticketing
company was Ticketmaster, but

769
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,400
the promoter was actually AEG,
who is a direct competitor of

770
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,800
Ticketmaster.
They own access, they own their

771
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,680
own platform as well, but they
picked Ticketmaster to be able

772
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,760
to handle the volume.
So now you've got Live Nation

773
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,800
Ticketmaster as a service
provider to one of their

774
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,600
competitors, AEG and AEG is
likely taking a massive risk on

775
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,200
guarantees for Taylor Swift,
right?

776
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,440
But they've they've agreed that
they're going to pay these fees.

777
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,640
And this is like obviously on
the highest scope, but any

778
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,960
promoter in contractors agreeing
to pay their line up or their

779
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:09,360
talent a certain amount in terms
of performance fees, the scalper

780
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,800
comes in and buys 40% or even
100% of the tickets that on

781
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,240
sale.
They have just de risked the

782
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,400
promoter.
And so it's not in the promotes.

783
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,800
They just basically generate all
the promoters revenue.

784
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,200
Now the promoters in profit, the
promoters sold out and it's the

785
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,360
scalpers problem to go and de
risk themselves by selling them

786
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,320
on.
And so the promoter who is

787
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,520
suffering scalping is completely
incentivized to allow it to

788
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,800
happen.
Yeah, it's interesting.

789
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,840
That is an interesting.
I've never heard that angle of

790
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,400
it, but that's an interesting
angle because like again, if you

791
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,840
go back to Taylor Swift, so yes,
in a sense the promoter was de

792
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,520
risked because all of those
tickets sold out.

793
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,720
They were going to anyway.
So in that particular.

794
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:58,800
So let's call that an anomaly.
That's an edge case, right?

795
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,600
Taylor Swift is an edge case.
Most bands are over here

796
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,520
somewhere where they don't sell
out every venue or whatever,

797
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,400
but.
I mean, it's not an education

798
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,720
thing that some promoters will
intentionally scout their own

799
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:15,160
tickets because then they're not
subject to the split of the

800
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,280
tickets between them.
Yeah, that makes sense.

801
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,920
So the artist gets screwed
because like again, when they,

802
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,160
when they went over the
economics of this Taylor Swift

803
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:30,200
thing, you know, and the total
floor seats were 650 or $75,000

804
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:35,480
over the OR million, sorry, over
the entire tour or 5 billion

805
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,560
being sold on the secondary
market, she didn't get any piece

806
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,880
of that, that spread between
6:50 and, and 5 billion.

807
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,760
And so in a sense, the artist
gets screwed, not that she's

808
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,640
hurting for, for a meal or
anything, but still, that's her

809
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,000
revenue basically that's being
shared with a lot of other sort

810
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,400
of ecosystems out there.
And Ticketmaster got screwed

811
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,120
because she wouldn't allow them
to do any kind of, you know, the

812
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,320
dynamic pricing auction.
And so the only people I guess,

813
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,760
who really won were the were the
secondary market, the brokers,

814
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,680
the scalpers, whatever.
Yeah.

815
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,440
And The thing is the dynamic
pricing increases the face

816
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:16,880
value.
So that's to the benefit of the

817
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,640
promoter as well.
Of course, yeah, the promoter,

818
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,360
the artist, certainly
Ticketmaster, big time, they

819
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,480
make a lot more money.
And so, yeah, I mean, there's an

820
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,000
argument for and against, I
think the dynamic pricing.

821
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,680
But that particular case, the
whole Taylor Swift thing

822
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,040
certainly is an argue for it.
You know, it's an argue for it

823
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,840
because at least if she
collected all that money, she'd

824
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,240
find a way to get it back to the
fans perhaps or something.

825
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,520
I don't know.
I don't know what I don't know.

826
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,680
You probably have some answers
here right on how to solve

827
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,600
scalping.
There is a it's a little

828
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,000
different for arena shows where
like everything is seated.

829
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,520
If you've got something that's
say 100,000 person festival and

830
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,360
those tickets start on Ted,
there's Ted pricing and they

831
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,720
start with like, you know,
they're the Super early birds

832
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,440
where they they are really low
price nine months out and then

833
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,440
they go up in price over time.
The economics are better if you

834
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,160
allow the ticket buyer or the
fan to sell back into the

835
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,800
platform and get there early by
refunded and you can then on

836
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,360
sell that ticket to whoever's on
the wait list for a sold out

837
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,640
show and they're paying the
final, final release price.

838
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,560
And then what you've actually
is, you've created a spread and

839
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,480
that spread is going to the
promoter and the talent, not the

840
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,320
scalper.
That's that's that's the ideal

841
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,960
economic solution for this.
Yeah, but how would you do that

842
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,960
for most of the shows?
Like OK, so that would work for

843
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,360
a festival, but how would that
work for like an arena tour?

844
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,920
Yeah, it wouldn't unless the the
seats go up over time and

845
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,880
they're repriced.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's tricky.

846
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:58,920
I mean, I guess the the one
answer is really to force a a

847
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,760
system where you sit in the seat
that you bought through the

848
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,360
promoter and if you want to sell
that seat, you can only sell it

849
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,280
back to the promoter.
Right, right.

850
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,480
And well, the platform can find
you a buyer for someone who's

851
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,200
waiting for a seat of that class
or that section or whatever it

852
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,000
is, right?
Yeah.

853
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:19,120
And like the kind of that does
happen now Ticketmaster reseller

854
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,840
like you know they they built
their own internal closely

855
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,720
resell over the over the years.
And so there is an element where

856
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:29,200
like they do have that now and
it's good.

857
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,800
The only thing that's different
to like, say, the way we do it

858
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,560
is that with us you're not
allowed to make a profit and you

859
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,520
have to offer it for face value.
Yeah, yeah, that's, I don't

860
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,760
know, you know, I believe in the
free market and stuff.

861
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,600
I just think that this has gone
wild, you know, like other than

862
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,640
a, a child of a billionaire or
something who can afford to pay

863
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,280
$60,000 for a pair of Taylor
Swift tickets, you know, like

864
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,440
nobody can.
There's just no normal person

865
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,760
out there that's going to pay
$60,000, but there's somebody

866
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,160
who will pay it, you know.
And I mean, I remember a long,

867
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,640
long time ago, I was, I provided
a bunch of lighting for Brittany

868
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,440
when Brittany was huge and she
opened her tour at The MGM in

869
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,040
Vegas.
And I had for some reason 4

870
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,440
front row seats.
And the day over, the day before

871
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,720
the the opening night, I got a
call from the GM of The MGM

872
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:28,120
saying, you know, I understand
you have 4 front row seats and

873
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,320
I'd like to offer you 4 seats
anywhere else in the arena, plus

874
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,280
dinner, plus, you know, your
entire stay while you're at the

875
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,800
hotel.
Plus, I forget what else he

876
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,320
offered me because he had some
billionaire flying in his

877
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,320
daughter and her three friends
and they expected front row

878
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,880
seats and he was flying them in
private just for this show.

879
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,960
And he wouldn't take no for an
answer.

880
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,120
You know, they want to be front
row and, and, and so yeah, I had

881
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,400
no problem take my seats.
I'm all good with that.

882
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,240
I didn't really necessarily even
want to be at the show except

883
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,920
from a work standpoint.
But I would have looked a little

884
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,480
creepy sitting in the front row,
like looking up at Brittany.

885
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,960
Anyways, so.
So I was perfectly happy moving

886
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,960
back, but it was crazy that the
the guy who runs the venue is is

887
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,160
calling asking me for my seats
and.

888
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,880
Giving Yeah, here's the other
the the viewpoint for this,

889
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,120
right?
Like if you think about what you

890
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,960
what you said before, where
people can't afford to pay

891
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,960
thousands of dollars or 10s of
thousands of dollars for a

892
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,600
ticket.
Once prices rise to even

893
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,360
hundreds of dollars, even like
say 100 bucks, let's say that

894
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,360
was the cheapest ticket price
for a gig, you've just priced

895
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,160
out the real fans, the people
who are likely to have the most

896
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,680
energy in the crowd.
Yeah, in favour of a bunch of

897
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,560
rich people who are just going
to stand there looking bored.

898
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,520
Yeah, that's the unfortunate
part of all of this is really

899
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,280
that, you know, it's it's very
unfortunate, but how do you fix

900
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,840
it?
Again, like the problem is, you

901
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,920
know, there is so much incentive
for all of the service providers

902
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,880
involved in that problem to not
do anything about it.

903
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,480
And so how's it going to get
fixed?

904
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,200
Gentrification of gigs is a real
problem.

905
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,960
Yeah.
It's a real issue.

906
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,840
Like nightclubs going to table
service.

907
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:22,000
I mean, it's unfathomable that
someone can pay the average

908
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,280
person's or double the average
person's monthly salary on a

909
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,760
table for one night.
Yeah, it's incredible.

910
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,680
Like, it just feels immoral to
me that that is even a culture.

911
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:33,920
Yeah.
Like if you're celebrating

912
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:35,640
something, OK, cool, you've
saved up.

913
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,240
Great.
But like I I just don't believe

914
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,240
that segregation to
entertainment is a good thing.

915
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,080
Yeah, I agree with you.
Like when it becomes sort of an

916
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,600
elitist thing to go to a
concert, you know, it's already

917
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,400
happened.
Like, again, I, I think I told

918
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,400
you before, my son is a racing
driver who's who's benched right

919
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,840
now basically because of cost,
because it just came down to a

920
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,920
situation like we have a friend
in IndyCar and I won't say the

921
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,080
name, but we have somebody that
we're close with an IndyCar

922
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,080
whose father paid $40 million to
get him into IndyCar.

923
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,200
You know, it's incredible.
Like it's not even the top

924
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,600
racing league in the world, you
know, Formula One is and Formula

925
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,560
One is hundreds of millions of
dollars now to get someone into

926
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,720
Formula One, it's just an
incredible amount of money to be

927
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:31,800
a racing driver and then let
alone to go to races, which used

928
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,280
to basically be free.
You could sit on the side of a

929
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,560
hill somewhere and watch it.
And now it's it's just

930
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,800
incredibly expensive.
And I just don't know where it

931
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,320
all ends.
Like you're just going to end up

932
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,200
with no fans like you said, just
people sitting still and not

933
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,640
cheering and just there so that
they can post a picture on

934
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,920
Instagram or or whatever, right?
Like, I mean it's.

935
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,640
It's, well, I mean, if you
combine that with I guess like

936
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,120
foreign culture where people are
not really enjoying a gig and

937
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,280
they've just, they're just
filming the gig while they're on

938
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:06,960
the dance.
Floor, I know it's crazy, isn't

939
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:07,200
it?
And.

940
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,040
Those two things combined are a
real problem.

941
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,800
I so I, I threw my festival.
So I do 2 festivals, 1 in Mexico

942
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,880
and one in Bali.
They're both Dorman based that

943
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:22,720
ordered destination festivals.
The crowd we get it's niche.

944
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:24,960
You know, it's 1000 to 1500
people a day.

945
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,000
It's not huge, but beautiful
venues.

946
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:34,320
And this year one of my artists
posted a video of the crowd and

947
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,880
she, she put a caption.
What do you notice?

948
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,600
And I didn't know what she was
trying to, trying to illustrate,

949
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,160
right?
I was just like, it's, it's, I

950
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,720
booked every, every artist like
I curate the music and it's a

951
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,680
crowd of people during one of
the, one of the, the artists

952
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,080
that I booked and she captioned
it.

953
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,120
What do you notice?
And it took And then she screen

954
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,600
grabbed the, the responses and
there were like 50 people that

955
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,320
replied saying no phones.
And I looked at the video and I

956
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,120
was like, wow, there's no one
with their phone out.

957
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,600
They're all dancing and smiling
and they love it.

958
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,320
And A, I'm very proud of that,
that crowd and the music was

959
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,320
curated to have that type of
crowd.

960
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,280
But B, if someone has to point
out that people are dancing and

961
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:18,960
that's unusual, that's a real
problem.

962
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,320
Yeah, yeah.
It really is incredible.

963
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,600
Like when you are looking at the
stage and all you see is all

964
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,280
these, these phone screens, like
in front of you there might, you

965
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,200
know, if you're 20 rows back
there, there's probably 200

966
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,960
phones in front of you that
you're looking at before you get

967
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,680
to the artist with your eyes,
you know?

968
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,520
So, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know that I like that so

969
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,080
much.
You know, I, I, I've, I've

970
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,000
talked about it on this podcast
before.

971
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,400
But Bon Jovi, one time I heard
him on a talk show and he said

972
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,400
he was asked, you know, what's
the problem with the music

973
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:53,960
business these days?
And he said, well, one of the

974
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,920
problems is we've lost sort of
the kinetic connection to music.

975
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,240
And he said, what do you mean?
And he said, well, you know, for

976
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:04,040
example, when I was growing up,
I used to go to the record store

977
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,720
and spend an entire day in the
record store just thumbing

978
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:11,840
through albums and, yeah,
looking at all the pictures and

979
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,240
all the song names.
And you didn't even have

980
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:16,320
listening stations at this
point, So you couldn't even

981
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,080
listen to the different songs on
the album.

982
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,760
You had to buy it for the one
song that you heard on the

983
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,960
radio.
And the rest was discovery.

984
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,480
And that discovery was
incredible, you know?

985
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,840
That's nice.
Think of how far we are from

986
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,120
that now.
We're so far from that.

987
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,120
When I, when I first got into,
into the drama bass scene, I, I

988
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,800
went to university in, in
Bristol in the UK and it's got

989
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:43,400
very, very healthy music scene
from electronic to, to other

990
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:44,960
genres.
And like, you know, Massive

991
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,440
Attack comes from Bristol.
Portis had come from Bristol.

992
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,520
There's a huge reggae scene and
a huge alert bass music scene as

993
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,920
well.
There were multiple record

994
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,520
shops.
You, you basically on any given

995
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,600
day you would travel between
multiple record shops to see

996
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,000
what had come in that day.
And then like, you know, you'd

997
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,000
have the new releases and
there'd be 3 copies of a white

998
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,120
label and two of them have been
reserved for a regular customer.

999
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,160
And you're going, oh, what's in?
Can I listen to it?

1000
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,520
You know, you all, you knew
which days there were, there'll

1001
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,040
be new deliveries from the
distributors.

1002
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,760
And you know, you're, you're,
you're desperately trying to

1003
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,160
find new music or the new
release from this new label.

1004
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,480
And you know, not everyone could
have that music and you'd have

1005
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,640
early access because you'd got
it right.

1006
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,400
And that eye is lost now.
Yeah.

1007
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,880
Well, you know, so again, going
way back when I used to have to

1008
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,080
buy concert tickets, I lived in
Canada at the time.

1009
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,120
And in Canada they had the bass,
I think it was called the bass

1010
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,280
Ticket outlets were in Sears
stores.

1011
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,200
And so you had to go to like the
customer service area in a Sears

1012
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,200
store and there was a little
bass window.

1013
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,880
And if it was a big show, people
would camp out overnight outside

1014
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,880
that Sears store to be first in
line.

1015
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:59,000
And you'd have a whole row of
people camping all the way

1016
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,560
around the building, you know.
So a lot of times I'd wait a

1017
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,880
couple hours in line to try and
get the first, you know, 5 rows

1018
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,440
or whatever.
And it used to be where you

1019
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,520
could.
And then it got to where you

1020
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,080
were the first or third person
or fourth person in line and you

1021
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,480
got like row 12 and you're like,
what the heck?

1022
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:24,520
And as I got into the industry
35 years ago, I started to learn

1023
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:29,200
about promoter holds and about,
you know, band guest lists and

1024
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,000
all of these different things
where then I was buying tickets

1025
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,000
from, obviously, or, or getting
tickets from.

1026
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,680
But it makes you really feel for
that kid that's standing at the

1027
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,480
front of the line, whether it's
online or, or physically, right?

1028
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,600
Walking away either empty handed
or, or with less desirable seats

1029
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,240
than he expected, having camped
out overnight, right?

1030
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,520
So.
Yeah, it comes down to like

1031
00:57:54,520 --> 00:58:02,160
accessibility of gigs to normal
people and like, you know,

1032
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,960
everything we're talking about
is, is all stems.

1033
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,680
It comes back to that.
And it's like, well, like the

1034
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,440
the the issue I guess is like
promoters.

1035
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,200
Promoters are their own.
They can take risks for only so

1036
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,360
long and they can lose money for
only so long.

1037
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,280
So they, they have to not have
to, but they choose to go out

1038
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,160
market to try and balance out
that risk losses.

1039
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,680
And then, you know, the artist
gets big and they put up their

1040
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:32,760
fees to unfeasible numbers.
And I mean really, it's like,

1041
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,360
well, now you have to charge 100
bucks, 200 bucks, 300 bucks a

1042
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,400
ticket because the artist is
charging 200 grand for a DJ set

1043
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,120
and 500 grand like it's it's
you.

1044
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:48,080
Know I, I was at AI was at a
shed show, probably a, I don't

1045
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,760
know, 18,000 seat shed in
Florida.

1046
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:55,360
And I was talking with the, with
a Rep friend of mine, an AEG Rep

1047
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,960
friend of mine.
And I said, man, this is, this

1048
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,280
is huge.
You guys must be really earning

1049
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,280
on this one, right?
And he goes tell you what, turn

1050
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,480
around.
And I said what?

1051
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,880
And he goes look at the grass.
And I said, yeah, he says when

1052
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:11,360
the lawn is full, we make X
percent.

1053
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,200
When the lawn isn't full, we
either break even or lose money.

1054
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,440
And I'm like, really like,
that's your profit is the lawn

1055
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,480
seats.
And he said, yeah, yeah.

1056
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,080
Yeah, and I, I think a lot of
people don't realize it's that

1057
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,600
like that festival you got on
the guest list for where there's

1058
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,960
10,000 people in the field.
The promo needed 15,000 just to

1059
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,360
break even.
Yeah, it's wild, isn't it?

1060
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,120
It's wild.
So I don't know, like, you know,

1061
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,640
I don't mind when it's just the
elite, you know, the very, very

1062
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,120
top, top, top cream of the crop,
like the Taylor Swift tour, you

1063
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,160
know, OK, so it's gone batshit
crazy.

1064
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,760
People are willing to pay
$30,000 for for floor seats.

1065
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,600
Fine, let's put that over here.
That's that edge case that we

1066
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,800
talked about.
But when it's so many shows,

1067
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,640
like you wouldn't believe how
many calls I get from people

1068
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:59,840
saying, hey, can you get me
tickets?

1069
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,840
Cause.
In our industry, 1520 years ago,

1070
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,000
it was easy.
I could get 20 tickets for any

1071
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,520
show just by calling in a favor
with somebody, right?

1072
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,000
But now it's not like now it's
really a job.

1073
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,840
And so I just say no to
everyone.

1074
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,480
But occasionally somebody will
say, you know, Chili Peppers are

1075
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,160
here in a couple of weeks and I
know their production manager

1076
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:21,960
and their lighting guy and
they're this guy and they're

1077
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,360
that guy and you know, what do
you need?

1078
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,160
I need to and it's somebody I
owe a favor to or whatever and I

1079
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,160
might make the call, but it's
amazing how much harder that has

1080
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,320
become because of all of this
stuff, right?

1081
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,320
Because those tickets are gold.
So like when it's that one elite

1082
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,480
tour, like a like a Taylor Swift
or whatever, you don't mind so

1083
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,400
much.
It's sort of like the Super Bowl

1084
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,120
in sports.
Like I can get tickets for

1085
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,720
almost anything, but the Super
Bowls are really tough one.

1086
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,000
And, you know, I've done
halftime shows at the Super Bowl

1087
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:58,000
and couldn't get tickets.
So that's a tough ticket to get

1088
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:02,080
unless you're willing to pay,
you know, 3, four, $5000 for the

1089
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:07,120
ticket.
I hope regular concerts, I hope

1090
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:10,400
regular bands don't get to that
point, you know, where it's just

1091
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,000
ridiculous.
The biggest thing is that if the

1092
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,320
promoter doesn't stay in
business, nobody gets paid.

1093
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,960
And that's kind of that was the
driving factor in starting the

1094
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:27,000
ticketing company was finding
ways to unlock margin in a show

1095
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:33,080
that wasn't obvious because
there's always 5% here, 5%

1096
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,960
there, 3%.
If you can find ways to unlock

1097
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:41,920
it, that is a way for the show.
It's going to profit without

1098
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:46,160
raising prices, without doing
anything sketchy, without

1099
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,520
scalping your own tickets.
There are ways to do it if you

1100
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,320
find the right tool kit, if you
find the right methods.

1101
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,480
And that's kind of what we got
obsessed with.

1102
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,120
It's like, you know, if you do
that in 10 places, you've just

1103
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,440
added 50% of the revenue.
But an E thing is not

1104
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,120
particularly remarkable or
impactful, but them all

1105
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,760
together, it's a really big
deal.

1106
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,320
Like if you think about it in
the sense of, you know, the

1107
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:12,920
promoter does need to stay in
business.

1108
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,240
If the promoter goes out of
business, then what happens?

1109
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,000
Like in Bled says it's a
flagship festival that takes

1110
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,440
place in, you know, some random
town, right?

1111
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,120
It could be like their main
tourist attraction over the

1112
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,840
course of the year.
So our festival goes out of

1113
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:33,320
business then hotels will
suffer, the restaurants will

1114
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,840
suffer, local economy suffers.
Vendors don't get that booking

1115
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:39,840
anymore.
Or the freelancers who are going

1116
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:41,600
to work at the gig, they don't
get booked.

1117
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,880
And so on and so on and so on.
The artists don't have a show to

1118
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,680
play.
And so, like, that promoter is

1119
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,520
more important than the artist.
Yeah, they're taking all the

1120
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,480
risk and they're at the bottom
of the food chain.

1121
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,520
And if they don't survive, it's
a real problem.

1122
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,600
Today's podcast is brought to
you by Artistry in Motion.

1123
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,920
When it's time to make a moment
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1124
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to major sporting events and
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01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:40,800
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01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:45,160
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1134
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,680
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1135
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,760
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1136
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:56,240
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artistryinmotion.com and make

1137
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,640
memories happen.
Yeah, You know, I, I have a, a

1138
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,480
good friend who's a, a small,
he's not that small, but he's a,

1139
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,800
he's an independent promoter of,
you know, pretty mainstream

1140
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,760
acts, but sort of on the smaller
side.

1141
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,440
And I mean, he's hurting right
now.

1142
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,480
Like he's just like, you know,
it's so hard right now because

1143
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,920
either the acts get overpaid by,
you know, the big competitor

1144
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,040
and, and taken into their venue
when they really don't belong

1145
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:26,600
there or, or, you know, the ACT
just wants exorbitant amounts of

1146
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,840
money now.
And there's just no way to make,

1147
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:33,720
make the math work on it.
You know, you can't charge $250

1148
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:38,640
to go see, you know, a fairly
mediocre 70s or 80s act who

1149
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:40,240
still thinks they're worth that
kind of money.

1150
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,640
So yeah, yeah.
It's, it's strange.

1151
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:49,640
So you started, I believe more
from a tech standpoint, like you

1152
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:52,640
had the need and that you were
creating these, these small

1153
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:55,840
festivals and stuff.
And so you saw a need for a

1154
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,840
better ticketing solution that
was backed by like, all of your

1155
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,880
digital tech knowledge.
And yeah, I'm kind of tech

1156
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:04,880
knowledge.
I saw the need to build a

1157
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,160
revenue platform rather than a
ticketing platform.

1158
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,800
Ticketing was the kind of
museum, but it was more like

1159
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,160
what revenue generating
technology can can we build?

1160
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,760
Yeah, yeah.
And that's interesting because,

1161
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,560
you know, ticketing itself, I
guess is a pretty old school

1162
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:24,080
thing.
And I'm sure Live Nation has

1163
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,960
probably added a ton of
technology to Ticketmaster.

1164
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,760
And I don't buy a lot of tickets
from Ticketmaster, so I don't

1165
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:32,520
even really know much about the
platform.

1166
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:39,240
But just starting at it from a
technology problem more so than

1167
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:43,640
a ticketing problem, I think
probably changes the entire

1168
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,320
outlook.
And that's sort of how I look at

1169
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,040
my own businesses too.
We were talking before we

1170
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:52,680
started recording about AI, you
know, 2 I, I own marketplaces

1171
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:56,720
and two areas where a
marketplace can really benefit

1172
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:58,920
from AI.
One is 1 is the search

1173
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,200
experience and the other is
basically the listing

1174
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,280
experience, the listing and
listing management experience.

1175
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,440
So if you, you know, for
example, whether it's eBay or,

1176
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,840
or whatever it is any, any
marketplace platform, if you

1177
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:17,480
have AI helping you, especially
if you're AB to B company,

1178
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,480
you're a business who's listing
hundreds of items, not one item.

1179
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,560
Having AI technology to help you
list those items much more

1180
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:26,320
quickly and help you manage
those items and help you build

1181
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,280
descriptions on those items and
price those items and everything

1182
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:34,640
else is a major, major win.
And so without even getting into

1183
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,400
ad tech and all of the other
things data that, you know,

1184
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,680
there's a lot of data plays you
can make within a marketplace

1185
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:45,680
sort of universe.
And but just on the search and

1186
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,640
and you know, just that
connection front end and then

1187
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:53,240
the listings back end are two
incredible opportunities to

1188
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,280
engage AI.
Most definitely, Especially

1189
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,840
because now there are multimodal
models where like they can

1190
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,840
actually analyze an image and
figure out what's in it and

1191
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:09,000
authorization and then try and
defy what the item is like and

1192
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:13,400
then pull that information from
the training day or even the

1193
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,160
broader web like that.
That's a really big deal.

1194
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:17,600
Yeah.
I mean, so that was one of the

1195
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,880
things we're building a new
platform right now where we're

1196
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,720
launching a new platform.
It's pretty much 99% built, but

1197
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,520
it launches in a couple of weeks
and it's, it's the sharing

1198
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,120
economy side of, of equipment
basically.

1199
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:35,600
So it's Airbnb of, of lighting,
sound staging video equipment

1200
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,960
from B to B.
So it's, it's sub rentals

1201
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,440
between large providers.
And you know, that was one of

1202
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,960
the things as we were building
that we were just like most

1203
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,200
companies would.
We were using an API into

1204
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,560
whether it was open AI or it was
DeepSeek for a minute or it was,

1205
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,120
you know, whoever it was usually
trying to optimize on cost

1206
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,200
because we're not raising
billions of dollars to go lose

1207
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,640
giving out tokens to our users.
But one thing we learned really

1208
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:07,880
early on is, is that search
results are a very unpredictable

1209
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:12,720
thing when you're just using an
API into ChatGPT.

1210
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,600
And so we invested in building
RAG servers and, you know, both

1211
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,800
for the listing side and for the
search side.

1212
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,840
And suddenly things got a lot
better.

1213
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,680
You know, it was like, and the
other thing that we were able to

1214
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:29,359
do is even though we're not
listing these items with a bunch

1215
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:34,640
of features, you can search by
feature and our Rag server is

1216
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,880
able to connect you to items
that are listed on the platform

1217
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,080
based on features.
So you could say I need

1218
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,040
something that's got, you know,
whatever and it would find

1219
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:46,840
anything that has that,
whatever.

1220
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,359
And then it would look at what
we've got for listings and match

1221
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:50,880
you to those listings.
Excuse me.

1222
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,359
So, so yeah, it's been a real,
you know, again, we didn't go

1223
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:59,520
hire a bunch of AI coders or AI
knowledgeable people.

1224
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,359
We just went to our normal dev
team and said, hey, go figure

1225
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:04,439
this out.
And so it was quite a learning

1226
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,160
experience over six or seven
months to build this thing.

1227
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:08,920
But yeah, we got it done.
It's pretty cool.

1228
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,240
That's kind of what what I do
without our engineering team.

1229
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,479
It's kind of like I'll pre
research a bunch of new

1230
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,279
technology and then go right,
this is what we're building and

1231
01:09:18,279 --> 01:09:23,479
here's all the APIs and tools
that you can research off the,

1232
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,319
you know, like as part of the
the task and you're allowed to

1233
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:29,080
override me if you find the best
solution.

1234
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,720
But here's a bunch of background
information and some something

1235
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,319
you've never done before.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1236
01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:37,479
That makes a lot of sense.
What about?

1237
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,760
That like.
With live events, you know, I

1238
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:44,840
still think that there's so many
areas to not only improve the

1239
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:49,279
experience, but to, to even
further monetize those people

1240
01:09:49,279 --> 01:09:52,319
that are there at live events.
Not into the ticket pricing or

1241
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:55,360
anything else, but even just,
you know, communicating with

1242
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,200
people through my business
partner has a platform where

1243
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,680
he's able to connect to people's
cell phones and control certain

1244
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,600
things on their cell phones and
stuff and be able to, it started

1245
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,880
out as as almost like, you know,
the wristbands where you could

1246
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:13,160
change the color of the
wristbands.

1247
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:15,040
You can change the color of
people's phone screens.

1248
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,400
You can flash their flash at
certain speeds.

1249
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,000
You can play a sound.
You can do all kinds of things

1250
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,480
through their phones.
But you can also do messaging,

1251
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:25,480
whether it's for security or
marketing purposes or whatever,

1252
01:10:25,480 --> 01:10:28,920
single one directional messaging
to their phones without having

1253
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,600
any Wi-Fi or any connection in
the in the facility.

1254
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,480
So where are some areas that you
think technology over the next

1255
01:10:36,480 --> 01:10:40,000
few years are going to play a
role in sort of expanding or

1256
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:44,360
improving live events?
I think there's an under, I

1257
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:48,240
guess like a misunderstood
opportunity for the option for

1258
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,400
AI within the event promoter
side.

1259
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,200
People are using it just for
content generation at the moment

1260
01:10:55,200 --> 01:11:00,600
and that's really narrow minded
in terms of where it actually

1261
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,080
benefit event producers and
venues.

1262
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,960
We're doing a bunch of things on
that side of things as well,

1263
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,240
because ultimately what you
usually have, unless you're one

1264
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,480
of the big guys is a very small
core team.

1265
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,880
If you're a venue, if you're a
promoter, your full time staff

1266
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,400
is going to be minimal.
Everything else is Audi workers

1267
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:25,720
and contractors, right.
So how do you leverage AI to

1268
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,000
give you the same or similar
resources and leverage as the

1269
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,440
big guys?
So we're, we're putting a lot

1270
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:37,920
focus into that because
ultimately if you don't have

1271
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:41,800
budget for 10/20/30 full time
salaries, how are you going to

1272
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,200
compete?
Yeah, it forces you to be

1273
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:46,840
smarter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1274
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,720
So no, we're doing a.
Yeah.

1275
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:52,880
And so like, what are some
examples that you can share that

1276
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,320
aren't a proprietary or secret
or whatever?

1277
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:59,320
I mean, even just artist
advancing where you know, you've

1278
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:06,720
got you're booking 100 artists
for a festival, like keeping on

1279
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,600
top of all the emails, even to
make sure when you haven't

1280
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:13,760
missed something that's super
critical, you haven't missed a

1281
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:15,920
notification that someone's
flight's been delayed.

1282
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:21,160
You haven't missed their like,
you know, the the tech writer

1283
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,320
has changed things like that,
right?

1284
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,960
Like there's so many only so
many hours in the day and only

1285
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,320
so many resources you've got as
especially pendant to keep track

1286
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,600
of everything.
And I realized I just cooking my

1287
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:39,120
festival, you know, 75 artists
flying in dedicated for that gig

1288
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,480
and all the moving parts that
come with that.

1289
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,640
Everything is a bottleneck.
Yeah, you know, it's

1290
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,000
interesting.
Just a few weeks ago I had Jake

1291
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,760
Berry.
I don't know if you know Jake,

1292
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,960
probably not, but Big time
Rock'n'roll production manager,

1293
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:57,880
worked with the Stones and U2
and ACDC and blah, blah blah.

1294
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:04,000
But he did the Aussie Black
Sabbath farewell gig in in

1295
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:06,960
Birmingham a few weeks ago and
he was the, he was the

1296
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:08,840
production manager and so much
more.

1297
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,840
But he was responsible for a lot
of that coordination of all

1298
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,880
these hundreds of artists who
came in to do this thing,

1299
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,600
getting them dressing rooms,
making sure the dressing rooms

1300
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,880
had what needed to be in those
dressing rooms and, and making

1301
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,160
sure that artists weren't
freaking out because they didn't

1302
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:26,440
have fancy things in their
dressing rooms.

1303
01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:29,520
And coordinating all of these
people were bringing their own

1304
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,280
buses to the venue and stuff
like where they had their own

1305
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:36,760
like little VIP area that they
could hang out in or whatever.

1306
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,400
Organizing where to put all of
those organizing their equipment

1307
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,200
on stage and how to change out
between bands.

1308
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:48,920
Because the change time was so
short, because Ozzy could only

1309
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,880
spend so much time there.
He was obviously in in rough

1310
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:53,720
shape.
You know, he he couldn't be

1311
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:57,560
there for 12 hours or something
waiting for artists in between

1312
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:58,360
shows.
Yeah.

1313
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:01,240
I mean, the coordination side of
things was just a massive

1314
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,640
undertaking.
Right, and that is often 5

1315
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,240
people's work, but usually
you've only got the budget for

1316
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:12,040
two, so things will slip.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's

1317
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:16,120
interesting.
So what do you think going

1318
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,000
forward?
Like what's going to destroy

1319
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,600
concert touring?
What do you see as being some of

1320
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:26,240
the challenges that we face that
we may not even know that we're

1321
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,080
we're facing right now when it
comes to live shows or concert

1322
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,160
touring?
You know, anything safety,

1323
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:35,560
security, environmental, you
know, whatever it is.

1324
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,920
I think the biggest there's,
there's two major issues that I

1325
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:44,040
think are going to be the most
impactful. 1 is that people who

1326
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:48,960
do still go to shows kind of
growing out of it or they're no

1327
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,720
longer going out or they've now
got families and they've decided

1328
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:55,640
that like instead of going out
five nights a week, they're

1329
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:59,920
doing it once every six months.
You've got Gen.

1330
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:04,320
Z that does not really leave the
house and doesn't go out.

1331
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:08,680
So you've got 2 revenue loss on
both ends of the spectrum.

1332
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:15,160
And then you've got the global
trend right now, which is almost

1333
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,640
all ticket buying, unless it's
like a Taylor Swift esque super

1334
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:22,520
hot tour.
Everyone is leaving ticket by

1335
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:27,040
buying tickets to a gig until
month of show, week of show, day

1336
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:30,960
of show.
And often 50% of the sales for a

1337
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:35,160
gig come on the day of the gig.
And that is folding a bunch of

1338
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:37,520
promoters at the moment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1339
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,600
That's got to kill a promoter.
I can't imagine 50% of your

1340
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:43,680
revenue come in the day of, you
know, like, yeah, a heart

1341
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:45,440
attack.
And that's a heart attack, you

1342
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:47,680
know?
Yeah, even if you had the money

1343
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,920
to pay for expenses, you're
right, it's a heart attack.

1344
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:52,440
It's the stress and the unknown
factor.

1345
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:56,080
You're putting so much money
into extra marketing and you're

1346
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:59,080
cutting things here.
And just because people just

1347
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:02,440
decided to be not lazy because
lazy is the wrong word.

1348
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,360
Circumstances have led to people
leaving things to the last

1349
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,640
minute for various reasons.
Sometimes because when they

1350
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:12,120
bought a show a ticket to a show
early, the show got cancelled

1351
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:14,600
and they didn't get their money
back, so they're more cautious.

1352
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:18,160
Sometimes there's a lot of money
to pay their power bills, so how

1353
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,000
could they spend money on a
concert ticket until they

1354
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:21,880
absolutely have to?
Yeah, yeah.

1355
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:25,440
That's, and I think it's all in
parallel with rising artist

1356
01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:30,640
fees, rising insurance costs,
just affordability is going out

1357
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,720
the window.
So like, it's a it's a perfect

1358
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,000
disaster, really.
Yeah, which is very.

1359
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,840
Depressing.
Yeah, yeah.

1360
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,840
I mean, you know, I'm sure you
you saw all the stuff that

1361
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:45,720
happened with Tomorrowland with
the the pyro catching the stage

1362
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:50,360
on fire and and almost ending
the show, like almost ended the

1363
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:51,760
event.
It didn't happen.

1364
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:52,520
Almost.
Right.

1365
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:54,120
And that is a well oiled
machine, right?

1366
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,160
That's a well oiled machine.
Well oiled machine that's super

1367
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,440
well funded and just that one
thing could have ended it.

1368
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:05,680
Well, and because they're a well
oiled machine and super well

1369
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:09,400
funded, they were able to go on.
But if if they were just some

1370
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,880
regular schmo doing a really
cool EDM festival in the middle

1371
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,640
of a field or something and that
happened, that's over.

1372
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,520
And now you've spent all the
money and you got to give people

1373
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:24,040
back their their ticket price.
A personal anecdote, my festival

1374
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:27,840
that I did, which was mid June,
so exactly 2 months ago, two

1375
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,720
days before the festival
happened and we have a 80 to 90%

1376
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,360
international audience that fly
in from other countries into

1377
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:37,960
Bali.
So they come from Australia,

1378
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:41,640
they come from New Zealand, they
come from Singapore and then

1379
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:44,000
other other countries in
Southeast Asia.

1380
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,960
Two days before the gig, a
volcano erupted in Indonesia.

1381
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:54,560
It didn't cause any damage but
spewed a bunch of ash into the

1382
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,640
air and a couple of hours later
I started getting text messages

1383
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,400
saying my artist flight's been
cancelled and the airlines

1384
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:04,520
cancelled every flight out of
Australia, New Zealand and

1385
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,960
Singapore into Bali 2 days
before my gig.

1386
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,040
Every single flight.
How'd that work?

1387
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,280
It was not.
It was not fun.

1388
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:19,600
Our crowd is so passionate about
the gig and the music that they

1389
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,320
spend.
Some people spend.

1390
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:27,080
These are ticket buyers spent
1000 to $2000 on rerouting

1391
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:31,080
themselves through other
countries or buying new flights

1392
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:34,160
to get to the gig.
Wow, so.

1393
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:35,960
But you.
Didn't end up we lost to.

1394
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,560
Give a ton of refunds or just we
didn't?

1395
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,360
We didn't have to.
We didn't have to give any

1396
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:41,720
refunds.
Oh wow.

1397
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,360
People found themselves, they
found a way to the gig, but what

1398
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:52,600
it did do is massively impact
the attendance because people

1399
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:56,240
that didn't have tickets yet,
who then couldn't, who hadn't

1400
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,920
committed because they were
going to buy when they got on to

1401
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:03,680
got got to got to Bali, they
didn't have that, I guess, like

1402
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,480
sunken cost, right?
And then there were people that

1403
01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:11,240
basically had saved up to buy
their flights to buy their

1404
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,400
hotels and whatever.
And then they couldn't spend

1405
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:17,480
another, another grand to buy
new flights.

1406
01:19:17,480 --> 01:19:20,160
And so you know, they didn't
come.

1407
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:24,960
Wow, Yeah, it's, it's a tough
business, man.

1408
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,320
When you get down to that level,
you know, like, again, if you're

1409
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,120
Taylor Swift, you you postpone
it and pick a new date and you,

1410
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:36,080
you do it then for local
promoter, you know, that kind of

1411
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:39,880
a show, 1500 people, whatever.
It's a whole different ball

1412
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:41,480
game.
It's, it's brutal, right?

1413
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,560
And, and especially if you think
about it, there was 75 or so

1414
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:47,440
artists.
I had a 20 piece orchestra

1415
01:19:47,440 --> 01:19:48,840
flying in from Europe.
Right.

1416
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:54,280
And imagine the skepticism of a
ticket buyer whose or a

1417
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:57,400
potential ticket buyer whose
flight gets cancelled, looking

1418
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,440
at the volcano erupting
nationwide, flights being

1419
01:20:00,440 --> 01:20:02,480
cancelled, and then thinking,
you know what, none of the

1420
01:20:02,480 --> 01:20:04,400
artists are going to show, so
why would I even bother trying

1421
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:06,280
to get there?
Yeah, yeah.

1422
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:08,040
So did that increase your cost
as well?

1423
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,160
Because now you had to pay to
get the artists in and stuff?

1424
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,200
We were fortunate we managed to
get everyone there without

1425
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,080
paying any extra.
It was, yeah, there was some

1426
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:17,360
juggling.
There was some.

1427
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,800
Juggling that you still we're
able to put the thing on, you

1428
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:22,760
know, like that to me, it says a
lot.

1429
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:26,520
But wow, that's that's that's no
fun at all.

1430
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:31,760
So let me ask you this like, you
know, you're now what, almost 15

1431
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:33,840
years into it, right, the ticket
business?

1432
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:38,840
On the team side, yeah.
So we've, we've sold well over

1433
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,280
$300 million worth of tickets
through the platform now.

1434
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:45,320
Wow, that's a big number.
What station?

1435
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,320
It's the big guys, but it's all
right.

1436
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:49,400
Yeah.
You know, based on the fact that

1437
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:53,280
things were probably different
15 years ago and, you know, the

1438
01:20:53,480 --> 01:20:56,000
the situation you were stepping
into was different.

1439
01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:59,520
Concert touring was different,
politics were different, the

1440
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:01,600
economy was different,
everything was different.

1441
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:04,440
Would you do it again today?
Would I do it again today?

1442
01:21:04,440 --> 01:21:05,760
I would.
I would definitely do it again

1443
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,640
today, knowing how important it
is to keep the industry alive.

1444
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:17,440
I think that building the tech
company came from a real, I

1445
01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:23,600
guess like love gigs and just
the, the industry in general,

1446
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:28,120
because ultimately, like I'm a
raver and when it really comes

1447
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:32,920
down to it, that's what I love.
I, I want to go to shows, I want

1448
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,760
to push new, I want to push new
music, I want to discover new

1449
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:37,680
music.
And if there are people that

1450
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,960
share that same passion and I
can build a toolkit for those

1451
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,640
people to be successful
financially, yeah, of course I

1452
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:45,440
do it again.
That's amazing.

1453
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:48,120
Well, Ritesh, I got a jump.
I appreciate you coming and

1454
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,000
doing this.
You actually reached out to me.

1455
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,160
I love it.
I, you know, a lot of times when

1456
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:55,120
people reach out to me, a lot of
times they come in through

1457
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:58,520
agencies or whatever and, and
you know, using some kind of AI

1458
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,760
search thing and they connect us
and I look at them and I go, I

1459
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:04,320
just don't have an audience for
you, but I think my audience is

1460
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:05,840
going to find this really
interesting.

1461
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,880
So I really appreciate you doing
it.

1462
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:09,440
Yeah.
Thank you so much.

1463
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:12,280
Yeah, All right.
Well, have an amazing day.

1464
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:13,560
Yeah, you too.