#316 - Nils Thorjussen - The Future of Drone Shows: Safety and Innovation

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The way I think about drones is
that they are just one tool in

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the creative toolkit.
And you know, you, you start

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with a drone show and then you
add an audio track and it's

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better, OK, just like many
fireworks displays have an audio

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track that accompanies that.
It just makes it more impactful.

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And from there, OK, let's add
fireworks and, and do drones in

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conjunction with fireworks
because they do different

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things.
I mean, you know, fireworks

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displays can do things that
drones cannot and, and vice

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versa.
And so I think they're they're

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quite complementary.
And then from a show production

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point of view, you know, the
more stuff you add, the richer

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your production is.
So let's add searchlights, let's

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add lasers, let's add smoke,
whatever it is, you know, the

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more elements a production has,
the more impactful it is going

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to be.
And so, you know, drones are

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just one part of that.
So that's kind of how I think

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about it.
Hello and thanks again for

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joining me on another episode of
Geezers of Gear.

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And so today's guest actually is
someone I reached out to.

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I saw an article about him
heading up a standards and

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safety group who are talking
about drone technology.

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And this gentleman happens to
know an awful lot about drone

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technology.
So I thought it was going to be

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really, really an important
topic to discuss because drones

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continue to grow in the
business.

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And there's there are people who
love them.

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There are probably people who
don't love them.

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There are people who are afraid
of drone technology because much

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of it comes from China and all
kinds of different sides of this

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this conversation.
So I really do believe that

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today's guest is one of the
people who is going to be able

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to answer a lot of these
questions very well for us.

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And so I reached out directly to
him and he was gracious enough

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to give us more of his time.
He has been on the podcast

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before, so I happen to like him
a lot and appreciate when he

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takes the time to come on.
So today's guest, Nils

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Thorgeson, executive Chairman of
Verge Arrow.

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Nils is a pioneering
entrepreneur and technology

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executive with over 3 decades of
experience shaping the

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entertainment technology
landscape.

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Now as executive chairman of
Verge Arrow, he's leading the

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way in drone show technology,
making drone entertainment

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smarter, safer and more
spectacular.

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He Co founded Flying Pig Systems
creators, creators of the whole

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hog consoles and Element net
labs.

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Element labs known for early LED
innovations like versatube.

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Nils was last on the show back
in 2019.

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You can check that episode
number 65 out on Spotify or

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apple podcasts or at geez
zoogear.com.

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So please welcome Nils Thorgeson
blue Yonder.

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We're flying into the wild blue
Yonder.

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So are you in?
Where are you now?

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Are you in Park City?
I'm actually in Palo Alto today.

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Jesus.
I can't keep track of you.

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I need Agps on you.
So that but my my wife works

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here in Palo Alto, so I float
around.

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We kind of float back and forth
between Park City and Palo Alto.

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Well, good thing your company is
called Verge Arrow because it

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would make perfect sense to have
an airplane.

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Of course, and I just need a
really giant drone to ferry me

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back and forth automatically all
the time.

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Perfect.
Well, you know, you're

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Scandinavian, you're small,
silly.

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What a stupid thing to start a
frigging podcast with.

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So anyways, hello Mills, Thank
you for for popping into geez of

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gear again.
This is your second time and I

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appreciate that.
Thanks for having me and kudos

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to you.
I'm blown away at your like a

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300 or whatever of these things.
I mean, it's amazing and I love

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listening to them from time to
time, especially in my car as I

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drive.
And it's so nice kind of

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catching up with people I've
worked with over the years.

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And I think you're doing a great
industry service.

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So thank you on behalf.
Of you, I appreciate that.

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And if you know anything about
me, you should know that I'm

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really stubborn and I don't go
away easily.

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So, you know, even though it's
almost impossible to make any

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money with a podcast or to, to
come up with any kind of, you

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know, commercial value, it's,
it's something that we really

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enjoy doing and, and we
appreciate hearing things like

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that.
So thanks.

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So I actually reached out to you
because I had read a press

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release in a couple of different
magazines about this thing

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you're doing with with, you
know, drone safety and and

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regulation and standards and
things like that.

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And I think it's a great topic.
I think it's one that certainly

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sparked my interest and and I
felt like we should have you on

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to talk about it.
Hello, and thanks for joining me

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today again on Geez of gear.
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So yeah, with that said, before
we go there, I actually want to

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talk about drones in general
because I think, pardon me,

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something's wrong with my throat
today, but I think that everyone

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has seen some sort of a drone
show.

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Everyone knows what drones are.
A lot of us have bought our kids

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DJI drones that are now sitting
in expensive Pelican cases

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underneath beds and things,
which that's my own personal

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life example.
My son thought he was going to

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be the world's greatest drone
pilot for about a minute and

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that was expensive minute and
and it disappeared.

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But you know, drones obviously
have evolved into much more than

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that.
And these drone shows are not

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only taking the place of I think
fireworks in some cases, but

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they're working alongside
fireworks.

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They're they're sort of
collaborating together as part

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of an overall show.
And I think there are companies

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out there, I know Pyrotechnico
is one of them, who are doing an

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incredible job of combining
drones and and fireworks

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together into, you know, these
incredible sort of sky displays

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or whatever you call them.
But, you know, with regard to

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the sort of big picture, are
drones like expecting to replace

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fireworks or just augment or do
they plan to work together in

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harmony forever?
What's the, what's the big

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picture goal there?
Well.

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I think they're two different
things, OK, But I think they're

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very complementary.
I mean, the way I think about

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drones is that they are just one
tool in the creative toolkit.

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And, you know, you, you start
with a drone show and then you

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add an audio track and it's
better, OK, just like many

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fireworks displays have an audio
track that accompanies that.

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It just makes it more impactful.
And from there, OK, let's add

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fireworks and, and do drones in
conjunction with fireworks

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because they do different
things.

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I mean, you know, fireworks
displays can do things that

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drones cannot and, and vice
versa.

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And so I think they're, they're
quite complementary.

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And then from a show production
point of view, you know, the

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more stuff you add, the richer
your production is.

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So let's add searchlights, let's
add lasers, let's add smoke,

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whatever it is, you know, the
more elements a production has,

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the more impactful it is going
to be.

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And so, you know, drones are
just one part of that.

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So that's kind of how I think
about it.

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And in the in the beginning of
drone shows, there was a lot of

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buzz around, you know, drones
replacing fireworks displays.

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And in some situations that may
be true, you know, especially in

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the Western US where there are
like, you know, fire issues and

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things like that.
But otherwise, I, I think

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they're quite complementary.
And it's really not about drones

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or fireworks.
It's drones and fireworks.

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It's in my mind.
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quo.
You should say that part about

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replacing them.
You know, for whatever reasons.

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Because I actually just had this
conversation a couple of days

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ago.
So the town I live in in Canada

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is called Canmore and it's right
next to Banff.

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And they've got a local
government in place right now

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who has for the first time ever
shut down Canada Day fireworks.

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And it's based not on fires,
which we have many of we're in a

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forest up here, but it's based
on wildlife.

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You know, they, they think that
it's scaring the wildlife and

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it's causing them anxiety or
whatever it's doing.

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I don't know who's interviewing
the elk out there to come up

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with that, that decision.
But this is the, this is the

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direction that they've gone.
And so I said, have they

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considered drone shows?
And he's like, I don't know

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what's that?
And this is a connected person,

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right?
And he said, what's that?

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And I said, oh, let me send you
a couple of links.

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So I sent him some YouTube
links.

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Of course, Virg arrow was was
certainly in there.

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And he was blown away.
He was like, I didn't even know

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this sort of thing existed.
And I said, now you can even get

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drones that have pyro as well.
And so you can kind of simulate

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a fireworks show a little better
because there is actually some

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fireworks going on in that show.
But the idea is it's a spectacle

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that you can use to highlight
your event or your, your, in

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this case, birthday of the
country.

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And and so, you know, I got a
lead there for you anyways.

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But you know, I do see that side
of it.

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And, and also just like, you
know, I remember when moving

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lights first came out, I'm old
enough to, to be that guy and

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people just said, oh, well,
that's the end of follow spots

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and that's the end of, you know,
fixed conventional lighting.

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And that's the end of all of
these other things.

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It's not.
It's another tool like you said,

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it's another tool in the
toolbox. 100%.

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So if you only had drones,
people would get bored

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relatively soon, I would think.
Like I yeah, you could watch it

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for 10 minutes, but could you
watch it, you know, for 20

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minutes?
Could you watch it 10 minutes

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again the next day?
I don't know, like maybe maybe

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more so than fireworks, because
fireworks kind of do the same

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thing over and over again.
Whereas with drones you can draw

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different pictures in different
colors and all that stuff.

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I guess you can with fireworks
too.

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But when you add fireworks,
drones and lasers and like you

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said, skytrackers and stuff
together, it it's quite

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spectacular.
It isn't.

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And you know, I mean, from my
lighting perspective, I mean, I

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think there are a lot of
parallels with the development

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of automated lighting.
And in my opinion, OK, we've

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made it out of the VL One era,
but we're maybe still only in

227
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,520
the VL 5 era, OK.
I think it's really, really

228
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,560
early days, both in terms of the
development of the technology,

229
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,400
how people are using them
creatively, and I think there's

230
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,800
a long way to go before we run
out of steam or penetrate all

231
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,920
the different, you know, places
that could use a drone show like

232
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,960
you're just encountering, right.
So there's still lots, lots of

233
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,120
work to be done.
And and even today, looking back

234
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,040
at some of the early drone
shows, it's kind of like looking

235
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,280
back at the VL one era with like
Genesis and you know, at the

236
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:09,680
time, everybody was blown away.
But if you look at historical

237
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,160
concert footage from today's
perspective, you look at some of

238
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,680
those shows in the 80s and it's
like, Oh my God, they're so

239
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,760
boring, right?
And I mean that in no way to

240
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,200
offend the people who put on
those shows, but you know, it's

241
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,200
just the technology is what it
was at the time, right?

242
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,120
Yeah, it evolves well, and I
think we're in another one of

243
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,520
those moments right now because,
you know, whether I go to a

244
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,920
country show, a pop show or a
rock show, they're kind kind of

245
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,640
starting to look pretty darn
similar.

246
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,400
You know, there's, there's not a
lot.

247
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,440
And you have some unbelievably
talented designers out there who

248
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,240
do some really cool things with
other elements and stuff like

249
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,840
that.
And so I'm not, I'm not knocking

250
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,920
the design community by any
stretch, but I just think that

251
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,840
when you start putting 1000
moving lights on every single

252
00:14:53,840 --> 00:15:00,480
show, you do end up with some
sort of lack of maybe, I don't

253
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,640
know, it just misses something.
I guess it misses something.

254
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,160
Whereas sometimes when you only
have a dozen moving lights, you

255
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,880
can do a lot more nuanced
things.

256
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,640
I don't know what do I.
Know.

257
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:11,720
Well, I think.
Yeah.

258
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,360
Well, I think that's a universal
truth in that, you know, if you,

259
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,880
if you get comfortable, you can
just kind of skate through and

260
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,480
it gets easy.
And some of the best shows I've

261
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,040
seen are the ones with more
constrained budgets where

262
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,240
they've been forced to make do
with less.

263
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680
And, you know, just like a
couple of dozen moving lights, I

264
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,880
mean, can do incredible things
if you use them appropriately

265
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,320
and the setting is appropriate,
right.

266
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,440
So.
One of my favorite examples is

267
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,240
is Mark Brickman with He went to
Lolla.

268
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,960
No, not Lollapalooza, Coachella
with Neil Young with 16 follow

269
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,360
spots.
That's it.

270
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,440
I was his lighting like 16
follow spots.

271
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,480
And, you know, everybody just
kind of went, well, what are you

272
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,960
doing?
And then it was just like wildly

273
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,200
complimented, you know, wow,
this was so cool, you know, And

274
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,240
again, you couldn't do it all
the time because people would

275
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,080
get bored of that, obviously.
But I love those sort of edge

276
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,560
cases where somebody tries
something completely different

277
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,520
and, and it works and it's, it's
just different, you know,

278
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,640
nothing more than that.
It's just different.

279
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:23,200
And so, yeah, I, you know, I
think that certainly seeing some

280
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,640
of the shows and again, I
compliment pyrotechnico maybe

281
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,080
because they're doing more
marketing than anybody else, but

282
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,480
they've done like I think it was
the inauguration or something to

283
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,440
do with government and I think
it had something to do with

284
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,080
either Trump's.
Yeah, we work with them or

285
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,280
something.
The the well there was like a

286
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,680
presidential something or
another.

287
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,000
I can't even remember.
What the was called, but where

288
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,760
they had everything going on,
they did the sound, the

289
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,400
lighting, the video, the they
did it all drones, fireworks,

290
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,760
all of that stuff.
And maybe you guys were involved

291
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,480
on the drone side, but I just
thought it was such a cool way

292
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,960
to, you know, really just
stretch that whole thing out,

293
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,640
make it make it bigger and and
so much more impressive than

294
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,480
just a fireworks show or just a
drone show or just a not that

295
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,079
any of those things, you know,
not that I'm belittling

296
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,319
anything, but it's just cool to
have all the elements.

297
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,920
So what?
Totally agree.

298
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,440
What?
What are your so?

299
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,079
What are the industry
constraints?

300
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,319
Is it?
Is it like what keeps us, you

301
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,600
said we're in the VL 5 era.
What keeps us from going to the,

302
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:34,480
you know, whatever where we are
today in lighting based on

303
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,440
drones?
Is it is it the technology, the

304
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,800
brightness of the lights that
are on board these drones, the

305
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,600
software regulations?
What is it mostly?

306
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,720
I don't know that it's, yeah, I
don't know that it's anything in

307
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,440
particular.
I mean, I think we're just at

308
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,080
this point in the evolution of
the industry where like the, the

309
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,880
technology has gotten pretty
well sorted.

310
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,040
Like the, the software works and
the hardware works and the

311
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,560
systems come together and they
allow people to do what they

312
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,600
want to do.
I think what hasn't happened so

313
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,160
much is that people haven't
gotten truly creative now

314
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,600
exploiting this technology.
It actually took a long time to

315
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,520
get to where we are today
because this stuff is hard.

316
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,800
It's a lot harder than you know.
It's, it's like the classic

317
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,160
exercise and developing a
product and it's peeling the

318
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,760
onion.
And you, and, and there are a

319
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,040
lot more nuances to developing
this kind of system than many

320
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,880
others because you, just you,
you learn stuff in the field

321
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,640
that you can never, ever predict
or emulate, You know, in a lab

322
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,320
or even in like your testing
area, you, you just discover all

323
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,760
kinds of wacky stuff.
And so it's taken a while for us

324
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,800
just to work through all of that
and create a system that is easy

325
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,280
for people to use and safe in
all kinds of different

326
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,960
situations.
So then, you know, we, we have

327
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,200
sort of like this base platform
that now we want as many people

328
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,680
to use as possible.
And I think still just a, a

329
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,120
small subset of designers have
actually really tried to push

330
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,120
the envelope with drones, you
know, because they've been, you

331
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,040
know, hard to get a hold of or
they've been expensive or

332
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,200
whatever it's been.
And, you know, it's also more

333
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,960
limited where you can use them.
Not every venue is going to

334
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,480
support a drone show.
So, you know, my perspective,

335
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,600
when I've worked in this
industry, it's always been one

336
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,280
of creating the tools.
And I'm not the creative person.

337
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,800
I work with creative people and
I watch them do amazing things.

338
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,560
And it's kind of same thing
here.

339
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,360
So, you know, a key part of that
is having good software, and

340
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,920
there's probably room for that
to evolve.

341
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,760
I mean, software became a really
important part of lighting, you

342
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,600
know, things like effects
engines and other tools to help

343
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,600
people quickly create shows.
And, you know, it's the same

344
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,080
thing here.
You need to give people good

345
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,760
tools in order to be creative.
And so, you know, we've just

346
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,040
gotten to the point where all of
this is now easily accessible to

347
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,080
people.
And so then, you know, we'll add

348
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,320
on bits and pieces.
As we move forward, you know,

349
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,600
people are starting to put
lasers on drones.

350
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:14,960
OK, So maybe that's the next
thing.

351
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,760
We're shooting lasers at drones.
Yeah.

352
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,880
Or dropping confetti or, you
know, whatever gag it is.

353
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,280
Or, you know, smoke on drones.
So, you know, the the FAA had

354
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,000
banned as you know, pyrotechnics
and and we finally last year

355
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,520
were able to, you know, get
approval to fly pyrotechnics on

356
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,000
drones.
So that opens up a whole new

357
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,280
Ave. not just for fireworks, but
now you can do drone shows

358
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,920
during the day because you can
do smoke effects.

359
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,000
OK.
And you could have a fleet of

360
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,480
drones like with coordinated
smoke or whatever, right.

361
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,520
So, you know, we'll see, we'll
see where that leads us.

362
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:54,080
But you know, I think we just
need to see what interesting

363
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,040
ideas people have and then what
the tools are they need to

364
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,680
achieve those things, and we'll
go from there.

365
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,160
Interesting.
Yeah, that all makes so much

366
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,320
sense.
What about things like scale?

367
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,320
You know, like I know that that,
or I at least believe that one

368
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,920
of the advantages that I think
some of the larger Chinese drone

369
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,480
companies had, at least early on
was where we were limited to

370
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,200
hundreds of drones.
Perhaps they were doing

371
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,320
thousands of drones in shows.
And I, you know, we've all seen

372
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,880
videos and, and stories of
disasters where they all crashed

373
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,480
into each other and landed on
people's heads and stuff.

374
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,360
But you know, certainly is more
better when it comes to drones.

375
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,440
Are more moving lights better?
I mean that kind of all the.

376
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,800
Time.
That's very good response.

377
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,520
Good response.
Yeah, I like that.

378
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,280
Right.
So sometimes, yes, I mean, it

379
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,800
gives you more pixels, OK.
And the Chinese have been really

380
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,760
good at developing the
deployment systems, OK, to strip

381
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,000
out labor.
I think that's a really

382
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,200
important part of the future of
this industry.

383
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,320
I mean, the, the Intel system,
which is now owned by Nova Sky

384
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,160
Stories, they have a similar
kind of flying out of the case

385
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,800
scheme with built in charging
and, and whatnot and and

386
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,240
streamlining the deployment is
important.

387
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,520
That being said, again, kind of
like moving lights like you can,

388
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,160
you can do a lot with 200
drones.

389
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,880
It all sort of depends on what
your use case is and, and what

390
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,640
you're, you're trying to do.
You don't necessarily need 1000

391
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,520
or 10,000 drones make an impact.
And even, you know, we've done

392
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,320
smaller events with 50 drones
and had a huge impact, right?

393
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,440
So it all kind of it all kind of
depends on on what your your

394
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,560
goal is.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes a lot of

395
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,200
sense.
So like some of the other I

396
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,320
guess differentiators, one of
the things that I, I believe is,

397
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,080
is accurate.
Is that your company Vergero

398
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,080
were or are one of the very few
companies, I don't even know if

399
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,320
there are others, but who are
producing both the software on

400
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,000
your own and the hardware.
And I believe that other

401
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,280
companies are using one company
software, maybe their own and

402
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,520
using somebody else's drones
perhaps.

403
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,840
What are your advantages in
doing that and capturing it all?

404
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,000
Well, the main advantage if you
do both hardware and software is

405
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,480
it gives you tight hardware
software integration OK, they

406
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,200
work nicely together.
It's the apple.

407
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,280
So exactly it's the Apple Mac
strategy and and and that

408
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,840
generally gives a better user
experience and also enhances

409
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,440
safety, which is really
important in this industry.

410
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,760
And you know, with our second
generation drone, we we took

411
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,200
over development of some
components that previously we've

412
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,560
been buying in from the outside
and now we totally control every

413
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080
piece of technology in the
system that we deploy.

414
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,640
And previously we had like an
autopilot component that we

415
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,560
would drop into our chassis and
then what we would find is the

416
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,320
supplier of that component would
make some changes to their

417
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,960
firmware, whatever they wouldn't
tell us.

418
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,400
And then you get into finger
pointing and it's just really,

419
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,760
really messy.
So by having full control over

420
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:20,080
your entire ecosystem, it just
allows you to more easily

421
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,360
deliver a quality product and
avoid surprises.

422
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,240
So that's kind of where we're,
we're coming from.

423
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,520
I mean, we, we went down this
road initially simply because

424
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,520
when we got started, there's no
place to buy anything, right?

425
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,440
I mean, there were no, no drone
shows available.

426
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,840
I mean, you know, drone show
drones available for sale.

427
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,080
There was no software available
for sale.

428
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,160
And so my engineers are like,
OK, we'll just do it ourselves.

429
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,680
And so obviously that changed
over time, but that's why we got

430
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,520
started this way because we
simply, you know, we were in

431
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,800
this is 2016.
I mean, we're starting from, you

432
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,560
know, Ground Zero.
Yeah.

433
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,960
So what's the difference between
a drone show drone and a drone

434
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,880
that I can buy on dji.com or
whatever?

435
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,360
The main difference is no camera
and then you add a light and

436
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,560
then you want to have a little
more precise control over what

437
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:22,080
it actually does so in addition,
most drone show drones use

438
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,080
something called RTK, which is
like GPS enhancement to make it

439
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,040
more precise in its location so
they're.

440
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,720
Not crashing into each other,
basically.

441
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,880
Yeah.
So you need kind of like extra

442
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,000
communication to transmit that
information.

443
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,480
I mean, that's the basic
differences.

444
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,840
So like, I know that, for
example, to sound like a

445
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,800
complete idiot with my son's DJI
drone, it was always sort of

446
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,720
auto adjusting itself to the
wind or to to conditions or to,

447
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,200
you know, if there was a tree in
front of it or whatever.

448
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,760
I guess one of the problems
would be if if multiple drones

449
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,920
are flying together and they're
adjusting in the wrong

450
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,560
direction, you know, suddenly
you have a crash, right.

451
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,640
And so some of your software I'm
sure makes them go more in

452
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,480
unison than.
Right.

453
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,960
So the RTK is really important
because it's super precise, I

454
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,400
mean, down to a centimeter level
accuracy.

455
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,080
And then otherwise you just need
a really good autopilot on board

456
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,520
that does what you just
described, trying to keep them

457
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,040
where they're meant to be.
Yeah.

458
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,360
So like, is there a, do you guys
have a somewhere on a whiteboard

459
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,400
like a pixel pitch that you're
trying to hit?

460
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,520
Like is, is 10 feet or 15 feet
or something?

461
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,640
Is that a number that's written
somewhere or is that just

462
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,120
stupid?
No, that's in the in the

463
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:38,480
software.
We can adjust that.

464
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,120
So each drone essentially has a
bubble around it and you can

465
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,680
adjust the size of the bubble
and you can be more conservative

466
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,160
or you can be more risk taking
and minimize the bubble size.

467
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,560
And like maybe if you are in an
environment where it's not very

468
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,640
windy and the drones are going
slow, you can have a smaller

469
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,440
bubble.
And if you're being more

470
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,200
aggressive, you probably need a
bigger bubble.

471
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,360
So it all depends.
Right, interesting, I didn't

472
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,360
know any of this stuff, that's
why I ask.

473
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,600
That's why we're here.
That's why I ask questions.

474
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,920
So what are what are other
things that that I guess

475
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,440
differentiate you over some of
your competitors, I guess

476
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,720
especially North American based
competitors as opposed to I

477
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,400
think most of the really big
drone companies are in China

478
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,560
right now, right?
Yeah, the really big people are

479
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,520
in China.
And I mean, Nova is pretty big.

480
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,720
Again, the the company that has
the old Intel assets, they

481
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600
operate globally, but they're
headquartered in the US, right?

482
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,680
They're a very big player.
Right.

483
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,360
So what differentiates you?
Is it still that hardware

484
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:50,600
software combination the Mac?
Hardware, software combination,

485
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,960
which then gives us greater
safety, okay.

486
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,680
And there's, there's a lot of
stuff under the hood that we

487
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,200
have done to ensure that what we
do is safe and that there is

488
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,920
redundancy.
Okay.

489
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,480
And if anybody wants to go to
our website on verge dot arrow a

490
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,040
ERO, there's a whole white paper
we've written that kind of lays

491
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,680
out the details of how stuff
works for if you really want to

492
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,640
get down and dirty, you can read
through that.

493
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,320
And we, you know, we, we wrote
this earlier this year because

494
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,360
there are a lot of questions
around safety and how our system

495
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,480
worked.
And, and it was just helpful for

496
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,600
us to kind of lay out our
thinking and how, how we do

497
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,520
stuff.
So if you really want to learn

498
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,280
how everything works, that's a
great resource.

499
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,080
But in general terms, you know,
we, it took us a long time to

500
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,520
develop all this stuff and, and
it primarily was because we're

501
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,760
trying to do things the right
way and Safeway and not cut

502
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,360
corners.
And, you know, this is this is a

503
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,960
little bit different than
entertainment otherwise,

504
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,000
because, I mean, it's akin to,
you know, aspects of rigging or,

505
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,720
you know, pyrotechnics because
there's a there's a whole

506
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,800
component of safety that's
that's critical to what we do

507
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,840
and a little different from
lighting and like video, because

508
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,800
you're generally not worried
about potentially killing people

509
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,360
or maiming them or whatever, you
know, if your drones get out of

510
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,480
control, right?
So, so we were really perhaps

511
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,280
over cautious and conservative
in our development and maybe it

512
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,320
took us longer as a result.
And, you know, you cannot even

513
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,280
see that in our drone shows, for
example, like we're probably

514
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,120
more likely to have an auto land
of a drone, which means you you

515
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,600
lose a pixel.
OK, then maybe some other

516
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,400
systems because we're super
cautious.

517
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,600
But if we detect any anomalies
or anything that makes us, you

518
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,160
know, worried, then the drones
are programmed to just descend

519
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,520
and, you know, stay within their
safe flying area.

520
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,400
So I mean in in terms of your
original question, in terms of

521
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,240
the differentiation, I think
those are probably, you know,

522
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,680
the the main points.
Well, I remember too, and I

523
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,440
could be wrong again because I
haven't looked up these facts

524
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,280
recently, but I remember you are
doing your manufacturing,

525
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,320
manufacturing not in China.
And that became a pretty key

526
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,320
point.
At one point, I don't even

527
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,200
remember who was who was in
office at that time, but

528
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,680
somebody, it was probably Trump
was pushing pretty hard to shut

529
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,880
down Chinese drones coming into
this country for reasons of

530
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,440
national security and spying
and, and stuff that is probably

531
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,920
happening every day.
And he believed that basically,

532
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,040
and I don't know if there's ever
been truth to this, and you

533
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,480
might know probably, but he
believed that drone, that even

534
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,280
DJI hobbyist drones were
collecting data and sending it

535
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,040
back to the motherland.
And so is there any truth to

536
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,040
anything that I just said?
Well, I mean, I don't know

537
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,480
internally what DJI does or does
not do, but those drones

538
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,200
certainly have the ability to
gather data in terms of where

539
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,720
they're flying and transmit it
back to a central location.

540
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,640
You know, some of that actually
is really useful, important

541
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,480
because we want to keep drones
out of controlled airspace, out

542
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,280
of military areas and stuff like
that.

543
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,520
So, you know, there have been so
many incidents of of drones

544
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,440
flying in inappropriate
locations.

545
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:24,680
So having some control over that
is probably not a bad idea.

546
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,200
And and this is, you know, at
the core of a lot of discussion

547
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,640
at the moment.
And they're definitely going to

548
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,320
be changes, you know, within the
the, you know, framework that

549
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,040
governs drones in the United
States and other countries as

550
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880
we, you know, all figure out
like what's the right balance

551
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,480
and what are the appropriate
things to do.

552
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,720
So we actually, we got shut down
from doing 1 gig on the National

553
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,840
Mall, you know, some years ago
because one of our components

554
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,000
had a circuit board that was
made in China and even though

555
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,800
our drones were made in the US
otherwise and and we had full

556
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,640
control over the software,
right, that wraps around

557
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,880
everything.
But that one component came from

558
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,160
China.
And as a result, the Department

559
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,280
of Interior prevented us from
from flying an event, which in

560
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,520
that case, that's a bit silly,
OK, because we control all

561
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,640
comms, we control every aspect
of the system, you know, so that

562
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,160
was a a bit over the top, but it
just highlights the

563
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,200
sensitivities around this issue
and, and you know, how people

564
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:30,840
are thinking about.
It.

565
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,920
So was that a strategic decision
for you based on some of those

566
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,000
protocols or was that just the
best decision that you thought

567
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,760
for your business?
So which decision exactly?

568
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,400
To not manufacture in China,
yeah.

569
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,440
I don't want to manufacture in
China, Yeah, for a whole host of

570
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,280
reasons.
So we've always stayed out of

571
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,520
China.
But you know, we think about

572
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,240
this business globally.
And so we're we're still

573
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,080
competing against Chinese
companies like in Europe or

574
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,080
whatever.
So one has to be nimble and I

575
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,960
think it's all about balance in
terms of where you build stuff

576
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,080
and how you build stuff.
And it was complicated before

577
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,080
and it's only getting more
complicated with obviously

578
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,360
what's happening now with the
trade wars and everything.

579
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,560
So we'll see what happens.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's a

580
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,520
complicated topic, which is why
I don't know, it always

581
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,520
interests me.
But I remember some of those

582
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,200
talks that we had back in those
days when it was like, you know,

583
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,640
there's a good chance that DJI
is not going to be able to

584
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,680
import into the United States
anymore.

585
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,280
And other companies were getting
a little nervous about it and

586
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,160
and yeah, so it was kind of a
thing.

587
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:54,160
So I think your is your software
called Verge Design Studio.

588
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,040
Yeah.
So there are a few pieces of

589
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,520
software.
We have the design studio and

590
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,200
then we have a ground station
that controls what happens in

591
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,040
flight.
So those are the main pieces of

592
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,560
software.
But then there's also obviously

593
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,280
software that runs on the drone
itself.

594
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,679
So Design Studio is basically
where you're creating the show

595
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:17,400
itself and correct?
Is that similar to like doing

596
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,719
animation or?
Yeah.

597
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,239
So I mean, given my my
background with lighting

598
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,400
consoles, I'm a big believer in
in open standards and being able

599
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,600
to talk to everything, right.
So, so we can, you know, you can

600
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,280
design inside the studio, you
can import things from third

601
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,199
party applications and then
either manipulate them or just,

602
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,159
you know, fly that content.
But what's great about our

603
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:47,120
system is that it validates
everything and make sure that it

604
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,040
is safe to fly.
It calculates all the flight

605
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,320
paths and then you can adjust
and manipulate in the design

606
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,639
studio.
So again, you know, from a kind

607
00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,080
of a lighting perspective, it
gives you the, the, the aviation

608
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,640
equivalents of like a preset
focus or you know, some of these

609
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,520
other tools.
You know, the ability to be

610
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,680
nimble and adjust your, your
launchpad on site without things

611
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,400
going wobbly.
And you can see exactly where

612
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,360
your safety zone needs to be,
like looking on Google Maps and

613
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,840
you know, all these kind of
features that are just really

614
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,800
useful for safely and
efficiently delivering a show.

615
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,600
And so you know that probably, I
mean, going back to your

616
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,720
differentiation question, I
mean, that's probably another

617
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:30,840
area where we do have
significant differentiation

618
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,760
because we've put so much effort
into the user experience and

619
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,960
trying to make it fast and easy
for people to get things into

620
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,440
the air safely, right?
And then adjust for all of the

621
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,360
weird stuff, which you know very
well what production is like,

622
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,640
right?
And there is always weird stuff

623
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:57,080
that happens and you know, just
giving people the tools to adapt

624
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,080
to those things on site.
You know, that's all really an

625
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,480
important part of the the
package because so often like

626
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,800
little things are the ones that
get you in a production

627
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,040
environment, you know, you
don't, you don't have the right

628
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,480
piece of gear, whatever that is,
which then prevents you to from

629
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,320
doing something else and then it
cascades.

630
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,040
So again, having now done this
for nearly a decade and worked

631
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,880
through all of these issues, we
now have a really robust toolkit

632
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,000
that allows the operator on site
to efficiently deliver a show

633
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,120
and allows creative people just
to focus on being creative

634
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,000
without a bunch of constraints.
Well, and what are, what are

635
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,920
some of those weird things like,
you know, beyond wind and

636
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,720
weather and stuff like that?
Like have you ever had a flock

637
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,520
of birds fly into a drone show
and cause havoc?

638
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,400
We haven't, but there is another
company in this industry that

639
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:54,200
did a gig years ago in Las Vegas
and bats flew out of the

640
00:36:54,200 --> 00:37:00,000
ventilation system just as they
were taking off and managed to

641
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,080
get caught up in one drone and
it went sideways and ended up,

642
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,440
you know, hitting a spectator
there.

643
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,680
So so these things do indeed
happen.

644
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,240
Yeah, that's wild.
Yeah.

645
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,240
I mean, I guess the difference
like, you know, if I'm doing an

646
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,040
outdoor festival or something
and weather comes in, you know,

647
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,520
I got to worry about my lights
and certainly the stage and and

648
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,320
the LED screen.
But you might have hundreds of

649
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,280
drones in the air that that are
that can easily become

650
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,640
projectiles, I guess.
So you have to have a whole

651
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,240
different sense of security and
safety.

652
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,240
For sure.
I mean, that's really, really

653
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,840
important.
And you know, in these

654
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,400
production environments, it's
there's always an element in of

655
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,360
chaos, right?
Some are better run than others,

656
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,280
But you know, sometimes you show
up and where you think you're

657
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,320
going to take off suddenly as
the catering tent or whatever it

658
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,000
is.
Or, you know, they don't give

659
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,880
you the, the crew that you've
been promised, or they don't

660
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,520
give you the, the forklift that
you need to move your gear or

661
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,640
whatever it is, you know, and,
and you know, all these things

662
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,040
can get in the way of a
successful production.

663
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,640
Right, I get it.
Yeah, No, I mean, we've all seen

664
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,240
it.
And again, the obviously the

665
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:14,080
hope is that it never turns into
anything catastrophic where

666
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,480
people start getting hurt or,
or, or worse.

667
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:22,720
So, so speaking, I mean, we're
really sort of hitting the edges

668
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:27,160
of, of safety and standards.
And I was, I was not really

669
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,640
surprised, I guess, when I saw
the article that you're involved

670
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,440
in, in getting this going and
getting it to become a reality.

671
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,440
But I, I think I was, I was kind
of happy about it because it

672
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,160
just seemed a bit like a wild,
Wild West for a while where

673
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,640
anybody could put up a drone
show.

674
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,120
You could, you know, buy a bunch
of drones and, and put up a

675
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:50,920
drone show if you had the
technology.

676
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000
And I believe you guys sell the
technology and I'm sure there's

677
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,520
forced training and stuff like
that that a company would have

678
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,680
to take.
But is there any reason for the

679
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,040
timing?
Like why now, you know, was

680
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,760
there a big accident?
Was there a close call?

681
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,520
Was there anything that really
created urgency for standards

682
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,240
today?
So there was there was an

683
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:20,400
accident in Orlando in December
where a drone was out of control

684
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,600
and hit a kid, made the national
news, got a lot of press.

685
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:31,040
And afterwards we had a series
of conversations where with the

686
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,640
FAA where they were reaching
out, trying to understand better

687
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,800
what they should do and how
everything works, etcetera.

688
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:45,640
And out of those discussions
came a request really from the

689
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,760
FAA to get a standards process
moving.

690
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,160
OK.
And that was a little bit

691
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:58,960
surprising for me because my
expectation had been that, OK,

692
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,480
the FAA now is going to clamp
down and they're going to make a

693
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,040
bunch of rules and they're going
to specify a bunch of stuff to

694
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,720
ensure this never can happen
again.

695
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:15,880
And the reality is that part one
O 7 which is the the the part of

696
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:23,920
the FAA code or or rules.
That govern unmanned aviation

697
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,400
were set up to be deliberately
light touch.

698
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,200
That was the mandate from
Congress.

699
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:37,560
They're meant to spur innovation
and the FAA is is meant to stay

700
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,600
out of as much of of this as
possible.

701
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,400
They've created the framework,
but they really want industry to

702
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,360
regulate itself.
And and the FAA has said to us,

703
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,280
you know, it's like you really
don't want us making the rules.

704
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,480
OK, we want this to come from
industry because you guys know

705
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,680
better in terms of how the stuff
works and and what it takes to

706
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,280
make it safe.
And if we, you know, do our job

707
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,000
and create a good standard, then
the FAA no doubt will embrace

708
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,880
that.
So that's what we're now doing.

709
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,760
So after, after getting that
guidance from the FAA, I started

710
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,160
doing some research to figure
out, OK, what are the standards

711
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,680
bodies that might be appropriate
for this?

712
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,960
I got introduced to ASTM because
as it happens, they're doing a

713
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,360
ton of work already and have
been for the last year, 10

714
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,160
years.
Oh gosh, I don't even know what

715
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:40,320
it stands for than advancing
standards and in any case to say

716
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,680
trademark.
Yeah, yeah, advancing standards

717
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:50,760
and transforming markets, OK.
But it is, it is one of the

718
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,000
leading standards bodies in the
world.

719
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,080
It's it's well recognized.
And what's exciting about

720
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,600
working with them is there's a
whole infrastructure that we're

721
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,560
able to take advantage of.
So, you know, they already have

722
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,440
been doing all this work within
unmanned aviation.

723
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,600
There are a number of other
standards that have already been

724
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,000
put in place.
They have like editorial

725
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,720
support, They have like this
whole process and, and they have

726
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,720
companies involved that are
involved in unmanned aviation,

727
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:26,200
people like, you know, Google
Wing and zip line and Skydio and

728
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,200
all these awesome companies that
are on the forefront of drone

729
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,960
innovation.
So they're part of this.

730
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:37,240
So it ensures that whatever we
come up with is going to be sane

731
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:41,040
and logical and make sense from
aviation and safety point of

732
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,000
view because it's going to get
approved by these people that

733
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,560
come from that background.
So that's kind of how we we got

734
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,480
to where we are in terms of
this.

735
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,000
Process So were you literally
though the the sort of point of

736
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,720
the sword on this like when and
so did you have to then start

737
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,200
calling around to other drone
companies and saying hey, we

738
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,240
want to get you involved in this
process and how did that go?

739
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,560
Yeah, yeah, Actually, that's
exactly what I did.

740
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,240
And then I wanted to get the
word out.

741
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:15,240
So I've, you know, generated a
press release and tried to do my

742
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:18,040
best to ensure that it got
exposure in all the right

743
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,600
places.
And I've had a phenomenal

744
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,960
response.
I mean, lots of drone companies,

745
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,160
drone users, you know, people
from all parts of the industry

746
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:32,080
and all parts of the world have
sat in on these meetings and

747
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,760
participated.
And, and that's really exciting

748
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,560
because talking to some of the
ASTM folks, you know, a lot of

749
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,920
times these standards groups are
small and sleepy and there's not

750
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,320
a lot going on.
And they are really pleasantly

751
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,120
surprised by the amount of
participation that we've had so

752
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,040
far.
So now the key is just kind of

753
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,000
keeping that momentum going and
you know, we have identified

754
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,920
some of the key issues and now
we just need to start drafting

755
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,240
things specifically and then
discussing it with this group of

756
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:07,000
people and going from there.
But it's, you know, it's, it's

757
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,320
really, it's really, really
important that this is an

758
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,000
industry wide group and it's not
just, you know, my company

759
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,160
trying to, you know, make some
stuff happen.

760
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,040
It needs to come from industry
and be broadly supported to have

761
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,800
validity and then get embraced
down the road.

762
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,880
I completely agree with you.
I mean, I know if you look at

763
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,680
the rest of our industry,
anytime you talk about safety

764
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:37,400
standards or even control
standards, control protocols,

765
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,680
DMX standards, you know, you,
it's not a topic that a lot of

766
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,560
people get excited about.
I mean, but in this case, like

767
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,680
it could, when you talk about
regulatory or safety concerns,

768
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,400
like people could look at that
as a loss, you know, as a net

769
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,200
loss.
Oh no, they're going to start

770
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,520
putting rules in place.
But I think it's a gain.

771
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,520
I think in a sense, not only
does it make it a safer

772
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,160
industry, but it legitimizes the
industry even more, right?

773
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:11,400
I totally agree and more
importantly, it will save the

774
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,680
industry, OK, because if there's
another incident like what

775
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,040
happened in Orlando, the risk is
that the industry gets shut

776
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,120
down, OK, that you know, 1
action could be that OK, all

777
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,640
drone shows are banned until we
really figure this out, right?

778
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,720
And God only knows how long that
takes.

779
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,880
So I think it's really, really
important for the future

780
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,600
development of this industry
that, that something like this

781
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,720
happens.
And, but, and not just in the

782
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,480
USI mean, this is a, an
international effort.

783
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,120
And, and the reality is that
many of the governing bodies

784
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:50,480
outside the US are also not
expert in drone technology and

785
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,320
they don't really know what to
do.

786
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,240
And, and what's worse is that
they, you know, their paradigm

787
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:04,040
is, you know, either manned
aviation or like drone delivery,

788
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,880
unmanned aviation.
And there's some significant

789
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,960
differences between, you know,
those things and a drone show

790
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:16,240
and like safety instructions
that might make a lot of sense

791
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:22,600
for a drone delivery drone make
no sense for what's happening in

792
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,640
a drone show because you've got
like 1000 drones.

793
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,000
In close proximity.
In close proximity and you can

794
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,600
say, OK, you need to land now
terminate the show because of

795
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,960
this, you know situation.
But but you actually with that

796
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,280
action may decrease safety and
not increase safety because if

797
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,880
you just land all and it's not
pre programmed, then you're

798
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,760
going to get a lot of mid air
collisions and then the drones

799
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,120
are going to go out of control
and you've actually potentially

800
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,000
made the situation worse.
So it's.

801
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,840
An interesting concept right
there.

802
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,640
Like I never thought of that.
If you do have to, like if

803
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,480
suddenly lightning or whatever
it is, that could become sort of

804
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,360
an instant problem.
If that happens, do you like

805
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,440
stagger the landing or how does
that work?

806
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,520
Well, it all depends.
You know, many times the safest

807
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,200
thing to do is just to let the
show run its course, OK.

808
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:22,080
But if you if you have to take
immediate action, you can, you

809
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,480
know, there are a few, you have
a few options you can return to

810
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,640
home.
OK.

811
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:32,440
And we have we have now certain
bailout points in our shows that

812
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,040
can be inserted to ensure that
that can be done safely.

813
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,600
So like every every minute or
whatever, you could have a

814
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,400
bailout plan, but then that
increases your show file.

815
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,400
I mean, they're trade-offs,
right, Because you have all

816
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,280
these additional instructions.
But if you returned home without

817
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,080
it being pre programmed, then
your your chance of collisions

818
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,840
increases significantly.
And it may or may not be safe

819
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,960
all depending on like where
spectators are and where you're

820
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:02,000
doing it.
I mean, another alternative is

821
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,120
you land all just have
everything goes straight down,

822
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,040
OK.
And because the drones are

823
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,880
always in a safe, sterile area
and not over people or not close

824
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,560
to spectators, you know, that
can be done safely.

825
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,760
But if you're over water and
your your drone doesn't float,

826
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,760
you've suddenly lost, you know,
potentially hundreds of

827
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,600
thousands of dollars of
inventory in the water.

828
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,400
And then the third option is you
can cut the engines in an

829
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,800
extreme situation.
You know, you literally cut the

830
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,760
engines and the drones fall out
of the air and again, because

831
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,360
they're meant to be in a, a
sterile environment, they won't

832
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,120
hurt anybody, but you probably
have just lost, you know, again,

833
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,720
thousands of dollars of your
technology, right?

834
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,320
So, so it's tricky.
So there is, it's really, I

835
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,320
mean, and this is what we're now
going through as part of the

836
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,000
standards process is, is trying
to think about different

837
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:56,080
scenarios and determine where we
can issue, you know, strict

838
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,440
guidelines as to how things
should be done.

839
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,680
But things aren't always as easy
as they seem, and a lot of

840
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,960
thought needs to go into this.
Wouldn't one idea just be to

841
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,960
have separate, whatever you call
it, take off spots, landing

842
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,240
spots like to basically parse
that out so that you don't have

843
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,680
500 or 1000 drones all trying to
land in the exact same spot at

844
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,240
the same time in a in the event
of a problem?

845
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,160
Sure, You could do that.
I mean, we can have different

846
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,000
take off and landing locations.
We've done multiple shows where

847
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:30,560
things come from, you know,
different homes and go back to

848
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,640
different homes.
So that's one possibility, yeah.

849
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,760
For sure.
See, now I've earned my way onto

850
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,040
your safety committee already.
I had one ingenious idea.

851
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,080
So is there anything at all
that's transferable from like

852
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,560
whatever it is 100 plus years of
of manned aviation that could

853
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:56,000
apply to drone shows?
There, I mean, there's lots that

854
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,160
can be learned from manned
aviation and it's, you know,

855
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,280
they're, I think they're,
they're generally 2 buckets that

856
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,040
we're focused on.
There's like the technology side

857
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,520
and then there's the operational
side.

858
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:13,640
So on the operational side in
particular, there is all this

859
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,160
work that has been done on how
to, you know, operate

860
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,400
organizations and crews and
things like that and pilot

861
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,600
safety.
I mean, This is why often, you

862
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,320
know, flights get cancelled
because, you know, crews, they

863
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,480
they time out or whatever, OK.
And it's all meant to prevent

864
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,840
exhaustion.
And you know, as one example,

865
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,560
that principle totally applies
to drone shows because you know,

866
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,080
there is a pilot in command for
every drone show and you want

867
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:49,800
them to be lucid and able to
react quickly when, you know,

868
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,800
weird stuff happens.
And many pilots, especially on

869
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,640
smaller shows, right?
These guys are also driving the

870
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,600
truck and loading gear and
putting it in place and

871
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,400
potentially being sleep deprived
and, you know, doing a drone

872
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,800
show tour, right?
And, you know, tonight it's

873
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,200
Houston and tomorrow it's
Dallas, and the next day it's

874
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,960
Oklahoma City and whatever.
And these guys, guys are working

875
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:26,160
really hard and their brains may
not be operating at 100% because

876
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,520
they're working so hard.
You know, fatigue is real

877
00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,720
impacts if fatigue is real and
it, it impacts your ability to

878
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:37,600
make good decisions.
And, and those principles have

879
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,880
been well developed in manned
aviation and they're equally

880
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,960
important for, for drone shows.
But people don't think about

881
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,320
this stuff, right?
You know, they, they, you know,

882
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,600
in general, the atmosphere has
been, you know, more like

883
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,680
traditional entertainment.
And it's like, hey, man, we're

884
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:57,120
digging and, and anybody who
can, you know, go to China and

885
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,840
spend, you know, a few 100 grand
in buy some LED and then presto,

886
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,800
they've got a business.
And you can kind of do the same

887
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,360
thing with drones.
You need one additional piece of

888
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:07,920
paper and maybe some different
insurance.

889
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:14,200
But otherwise, you know, people
just like that who then just gig

890
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,920
like it was an LED screen and
you know, it's not.

891
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,280
Yeah, So I don't want to try and
sound smart.

892
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,840
I did actually look this this up
on on ChatGPT or something but

893
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,720
do technologies like redundant
navigation, Geo fencing or

894
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:38,920
aerospace communication mirror
like aviation industry stuff?

895
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,200
Yeah, redundancy 100%.
I mean, that is like a key

896
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:47,600
principle of manned aviation.
I mean every aircraft has 2-3

897
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:53,040
layers of redundancy.
Geo fencing is more of a drone

898
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:58,720
thing, OK, than manned aircraft.
Although essentially the way air

899
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,760
traffic control works is each
airplane is in its bubble,

900
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,120
right?
And nothing else should get in

901
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,280
that bubble.
And we have a similar bubble

902
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,480
scheme with our drones.
And not everybody does this, but

903
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,680
you know, every drone has a
bubble and nothing else is

904
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:20,400
allowed in that bubble.
And if it gets too far outside

905
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,680
or, you know, pierces that
bubble, then you know,

906
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,680
corrective action is taken,
right?

907
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,800
So, you know, that's kind of
it's different, but it's a

908
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,520
similar, similar principle.
Yeah.

909
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:36,240
What about things like outdated
software or, you know,

910
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,920
situations where basically
there's a mismatch between the

911
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,280
hardware and the software or
something and something builds

912
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,160
out?
Well, these are all things we're

913
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,960
working on now as part of the
standards effort.

914
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:54,640
I mean, there have been huge
advances in the software and our

915
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,400
platform is set up so that we
can update it regularly and we

916
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,560
do and we spend a lot of time
and effort on doing so.

917
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:07,160
We use an autopilot called PX4,
which is is kind of like the

918
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,960
Linux software of you know,
autopilots and and the drone

919
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,400
space.
A lot of people use it.

920
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,600
It has a great community
supporting it and it has had

921
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,280
huge advances in the in the last
few years.

922
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:27,880
So it is highly advisable to use
a, you know, new ish version of

923
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,480
that software.
I mean, you don't always have to

924
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,200
be the newest one, but you want
to make sure you're

925
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:36,520
incorporating recent advances.
And so, you know, I think the

926
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,560
same, the same is true of, in
other words, aviation or, or

927
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,240
other kinds of technologies,
right?

928
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:45,960
I mean, you, you need to update
the, the software on your

929
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,280
computer to keep it safe from
viruses and other threats.

930
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,480
And it's just good hygiene to be
doing so.

931
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,760
And drones are are no different
if you're using something like

932
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,640
PX4.
Yeah, I'm sure you've seen it.

933
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,680
There was a recent video of
something in Asia.

934
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,640
I don't remember if it was
Beijing or Singapore or what it

935
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,680
was, but huge drone show that I
believe when they were when the

936
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,560
show finished or, or maybe even
during part of the show, there

937
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,640
was just everything started
crashing and falling out of the

938
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,120
sky.
And do you know what happened

939
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,560
there or?
I mean probably GPS jamming that

940
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,360
is a a big problem and the big
vulnerability of all of these

941
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,720
systems.
Because they all rely on

942
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,160
jamming.
Well, I mean, this is what's

943
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,400
happening now in the Black Sea
and other places, you know, in

944
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,040
military settings where
presumably the Russians are

945
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,720
deliberately manipulating GPS
data that comes from the

946
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:50,280
satellites to confuse their
opponents.

947
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:55,720
And it is possible to buy, you
know, pieces of equipment that

948
00:55:55,720 --> 00:56:01,840
can scramble or or mess up or
otherwise, you know, destroy the

949
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,360
GPS signal coming down so that
the drones don't know where

950
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:06,160
they.
Are right.

951
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,000
So people are intentionally
sabotaging a drone show?

952
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,480
Wow.
There's been lots of this in

953
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,360
Asia.
We had it happen to us on a show

954
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,320
in Germany.
I think it happened to another

955
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:25,160
company in the US last year in a
show in Washington, if I

956
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,440
remember correctly.
So, you know, this is this is

957
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,440
like equipment that's bought
that people like truck drivers

958
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:36,160
will put it on their trucks so
that boss can't track him, OK,

959
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,840
this kind of thing.
I can understand that

960
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,120
application, but to try and
screw up a drone show and get

961
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,760
drones to crash, what's the end
game on that?

962
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,400
Oh, it's just vandalism.
Yeah, that is gross.

963
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:55,840
That is wild.
But that is the weak link of all

964
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,320
of these systems.
Well, I would guess that one of

965
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,280
the things too that's probably
causing problems and causing a

966
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:08,400
need for for safety regulations
is price wars, right?

967
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:14,040
Like as you push the price down,
you have to maintain a level of

968
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:19,040
of safety and and whatever you
would want to call that like

969
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,040
integrity I guess.
Right.

970
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:23,280
So.
Yeah, 100%.

971
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,000
I mean that's that well, that's
a that's a really big problem,

972
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:31,480
right, because, you know, our,
our drones, which are built, you

973
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,800
know, with safety in mind, cost
more than a drone that is built

974
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,160
for price sufficiency and that
doesn't have the same amount of

975
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,800
redundancy or safety features,
you know built into that right.

976
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,040
So it this industry has become
very price sensitive pretty

977
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,240
quickly.
And that's a real issue.

978
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,720
But you know, at the same time,
you know, anybody in the public

979
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:01,240
who goes to see a drone show
doesn't have any expectation of

980
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:02,280
risk.
OK.

981
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,000
There's there's no, of course
there's no assumption of risk in

982
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,480
your mind.
Do I need to wear a hard hat,

983
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,520
You know, to this, to this, you
know, New Year's celebration or

984
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,760
whatever it is.
Yeah, well, exactly.

985
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,200
Which is.
Which is why then it's really

986
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:22,320
important to have at least some
minimum level of safety that is

987
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,240
set out in a standard that
people need to comply with.

988
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,520
Yeah, yeah.
So basically all you're saying

989
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,200
is all drones need to be up to
at least this standard.

990
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,880
Some will still be well above
that standard, but all of them

991
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:37,520
need to at least hit this
standard.

992
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,800
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.

993
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:45,720
So, you know, I would guess that
this is probably one of the

994
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,680
biggest issues and not just on
the hardware, sort of, you know,

995
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,040
lowest level or or base level or
whatever, but also the labor and

996
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,760
everything else too.
Like what is the what are the

997
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,680
stand?
Are there any standards in place

998
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,520
like what a person operating or
setting up a drone show must

999
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,120
have?
Do they have to have certain

1000
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,040
qualifications yet or no?
Well, you have to have a

1001
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,880
commercial operator permit, OK.
And that's stipulated by part

1002
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:21,240
one O 7 in the US, but it's a
bit like going to the DMV and

1003
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,320
taking the written test there,
right?

1004
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,640
OK.
You know, maybe 10% of the

1005
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,320
knowledge is actually useful for
what you do on a day-to-day

1006
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,440
basis.
And and there is a lot you need

1007
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,680
to know that's not covered in
that exam.

1008
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,640
OK.
So again, that is one piece of

1009
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:44,440
this standards effort is, is
thinking through what should be

1010
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,840
mandated and then you know, how
you go about doing it.

1011
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,200
And so you know, for us, we're
it's all about trying to find

1012
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,120
the right balance.
And I also view this as a, as a

1013
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,280
longer term effort.
So right now we just need to

1014
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,440
focus on like kind of key core
elements that we can get

1015
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:07,480
consensus on quickly and like,
let's get that in place.

1016
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,200
And then there can be version
2-3 and four where we like go

1017
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,320
into more detail about some of
these things.

1018
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,360
And I'm sure this will be an
ongoing effort, you know, that

1019
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,360
evolves over the years and and
becomes more refined.

1020
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,000
But there is I mean.
There, there was so much that

1021
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:25,480
could go into it.
So we just need to pick our

1022
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,320
battles, right and pick the key,
important key things, but you

1023
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,360
know, training and experience
and you know, all these things

1024
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,440
are, are really important and
the, the industry for the most

1025
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,920
part it it works on a pseudo
apprenticeship system.

1026
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,920
I mean, you know, much like
concert touring where like you,

1027
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,440
you, you start with doing small
gigs and then you kind of work

1028
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,160
your way up and you get more
experience.

1029
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,640
And, you know, but there's a,
there's a big difference from

1030
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:54,480
doing a club show to doing an
arena or stadium show.

1031
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,200
And, you know, you don't just go
from one to the other.

1032
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,680
There are skills you have to
learn along the way to make sure

1033
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,280
that you're competent on what
you're doing.

1034
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,640
Yeah.
And do you, do you coordinate at

1035
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:10,480
all with like other regulatory
bodies like in Europe or in, in

1036
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,960
Asia, God forbid, or anywhere
else?

1037
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,280
Yeah.
So in Europe there's something

1038
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,360
called EOSA, which is like the
European FAA.

1039
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:25,320
So we work with them and have
had to get a special approval on

1040
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,520
our system because we didn't
quite fit what they had in mind.

1041
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:32,040
And so we were able to get that.
So we're approved to fly in

1042
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,760
Europe with our system, which is
great.

1043
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,560
And then in other territories,
you know, we've had to gain

1044
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:41,440
approval for doing shows there.
And you know, some are easier to

1045
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,640
work with than others.
But I mean, as as you're with

1046
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:50,280
regard to this safety group,
this task force, are you working

1047
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,400
with Europe as well to make sure
that whatever you're doing here

1048
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,080
will also carry over there or is
there a similar group or task

1049
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,080
force in Europe?
There, there isn't I think we're

1050
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:03,520
a little bit ahead.
There are some things starting

1051
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:09,600
to happen and we are in touch
with them and want to coordinate

1052
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,680
100% OK.
But I think things are moving

1053
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,440
faster in the US.
So, you know, it may be that

1054
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:19,640
we're first out the gate and
then we'll see, we'll see what

1055
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,600
they, what they like and what
they don't like and, and try

1056
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,240
and, and figure out how to be In
Sync with them.

1057
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,640
But I, you know, from my
perspective, I think it's really

1058
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:29,640
important that, you know, this
is not AUS standard.

1059
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,320
This is an international
standard.

1060
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,760
And, and there aren't really,
you know, it's a bit like

1061
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:37,600
entertainment technology more
generally.

1062
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:41,280
OK, You know, what, what, what
tends to get used in Europe also

1063
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,440
gets used in the US for the most
part, like these tours, they,

1064
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,720
they go around the world, right?
And it's not that big an

1065
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:50,440
industry.
And so it's not like every

1066
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,040
country supports its own variant
of of the technology.

1067
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:58,280
And and here people are kind of
essentially doing drones the

1068
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,120
same, you know, the shows the
same way.

1069
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,320
There's no big difference
between how you do a drone show

1070
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,640
in Germany versus the US.
So it makes sense to have

1071
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,080
compatible standards.
Yeah.

1072
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,320
So I guess it's it's sort of a
two-part process where one is

1073
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,880
that you create those standards
and and you know you write the

1074
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,520
textbook basically.
And then secondly is that you

1075
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,960
work with other areas to mandate
it or working even in the US,

1076
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,240
work with, you know, the
different groups that need to

1077
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,280
mandate it for those shows, but
also in Europe and Asia and

1078
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,680
Middle East and wherever there's
drone shows being done.

1079
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:33,920
Exactly.
Yeah, I'll see.

1080
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,040
I said another smart thing.
That's two in one podcast.

1081
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,080
This is amazing.
I might be out for a record 3

1082
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,560
here, so I'm going to try and
find something smart to ask you.

1083
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,480
What about, so with regard to
what I just said about

1084
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,920
mandating, are you already
starting to reach out to like

1085
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:59,960
event organizers, festivals, at
least letting them know that

1086
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:02,480
you're working on something like
this and that it will be

1087
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,600
published at some point and that
it should be something that they

1088
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,880
mandate for those or or is it
too early for that yet?

1089
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,120
Well, I think they probably want
to see more detail, but I have

1090
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,480
been in touch with the event
Safety Alliance.

1091
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,080
OK.
I think this is going to be

1092
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:21,560
really interesting for them.
That's as far as I've I've

1093
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,160
gotten.
But in general on all this, I, I

1094
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,920
have a, you know, this is, I
have an open door policy like

1095
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:28,680
everyone is welcome to
participate.

1096
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,320
I'm trying to get as many people
to participate as possible for

1097
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:37,720
the reasons I mentioned earlier,
and so the more industry

1098
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,400
participation we have, the the
better.

1099
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,240
Yeah.
What about insurance companies?

1100
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:45,120
Is there is there in your
vision?

1101
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:49,320
Is there a point where this will
be mandated by insurance

1102
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,280
companies as well?
I would think so because they

1103
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:57,480
too are not so knowledgeable
about how everything works.

1104
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,280
And I have.
I have worked hard to reach out

1105
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,000
to them and try and educate
them.

1106
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,120
But it has not been well
received.

1107
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:08,880
I mean, not that I've been
rejected, but they just haven't

1108
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,400
been interested.
You know, they don't they don't

1109
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,680
want to listen.
And the, you know, the insurance

1110
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:17,280
rates for drone shows are really
high.

1111
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,320
I mean, maybe.
That's why they don't want to

1112
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,080
listen.
Maybe it's very profitable right

1113
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,280
now.
Well, you know, it was very

1114
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,000
profitable.
I mean, after this incident,

1115
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,720
we'll see how profitable it is
because they're probably going

1116
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,080
to have a payout, one would
assume.

1117
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:36,720
But yeah, in my, in my mind, the
rates they charge are not

1118
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:38,800
correlated with the risk
involved.

1119
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:43,160
And then there's no
differentiation between safer

1120
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,160
ways of doing things and less
safe ways of doing things.

1121
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:50,000
And you know, I've tried to talk
to them, but I guess I'm, I'm

1122
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,960
guessing the day will come, but
I have not been able to engage

1123
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,720
them yet.
Yeah, so who pays for all of

1124
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,080
this?
Pays for what specifically?

1125
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:05,280
Like, it's not easy and
inexpensive to do what you're

1126
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,880
doing right now to build this
task force, to get a lot of

1127
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,120
people involved, for people to
fly around to get to meetings to

1128
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,520
do.
Like is there, is there a budget

1129
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,040
or is this all just completely
being done voluntarily?

1130
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,360
It's basically a volunteer
effort, Yeah.

1131
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,040
So yeah, this is this is it's
become nearly a full time gig

1132
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:25,840
for me.
Yeah, that's what I was getting

1133
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,400
at, yeah.
Now fortunately or earlier this

1134
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,760
year, I handed off the like a
lot of the day-to-day stuff with

1135
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,920
my, you know, partners.
So they're now taking care of

1136
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:41,200
that and allowing me to focus
more on strategic issues and,

1137
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,320
and suddenly safety has become a
huge strategic issue and this is

1138
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:49,120
now my main focus.
So, yeah, it is a volunteer

1139
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:56,280
effort and obviously any costs
are, you know, absorbed by the

1140
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:57,720
companies that are
participating.

1141
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,440
But fortunately, I mean, there's
not a lot of cost.

1142
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,960
It's mainly time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.

1143
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,840
So how about if, if other
manufacturers, operators,

1144
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:14,000
production companies want to get
involved with this work I do

1145
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,200
they just reach out to you or is
there a name like do you guys

1146
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,640
have a website yet or anything?
Or is this just a task group?

1147
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:22,640
We don't have a, we don't have a
website.

1148
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,360
But if you want to, if you want
to join the party, send me an

1149
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:33,520
e-mail standards@vergearrow.com
and and then I'll include

1150
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,600
anybody who's interested in
participating in our e-mail list

1151
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,000
and they can join the meetings
and participate as much as they

1152
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,960
want or, or just observe.
Many people just want to kind of

1153
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,520
be on top of what's happening.
They don't necessarily have time

1154
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:51,960
to start drafting standards, but
they really want to know what's

1155
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,280
going on.
And so, you know, we're having

1156
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:59,000
monthly meetings where we can
disseminate information and keep

1157
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:00,880
people apprised of where we're
at.

1158
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,520
Yeah.
And I guess the only other thing

1159
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,720
I would ask about this, unless
I've missed things that you want

1160
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,360
to talk about as well, but
people who are listening to

1161
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,080
this, who may not own drone
companies or anything, who are

1162
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:15,840
just in live events production,
is there anything you want them

1163
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:20,479
to do after hearing this or?
Yeah, buy drones.

1164
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,439
So I mean, I'm, I'm like the
Pied Piper, man I'm, I, I, I

1165
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:28,160
love drones.
It's fun and there's.

1166
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:29,560
There's so much.
Cool stuff.

1167
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,720
There's so much cool stuff yet
to be done.

1168
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,760
And so I, you know, I mean, the,
the, the mission of our company

1169
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,680
is really not to do shows
ourselves.

1170
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,600
I mean, we did a lot of shows in
the beginning because, you know,

1171
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:43,880
there was like nobody to sell
to.

1172
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,960
We just had to go do the shows
to, to make stuff happen and

1173
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:48,359
prove the technology and what
not.

1174
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:51,920
But you know, we are generally
trying to step back from being a

1175
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:55,080
production company and doing the
shows and instead being a

1176
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:58,200
supplier of the technology that
powers them.

1177
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,640
But I, I want to see more people
getting involved.

1178
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,399
I think there's, there's still
tons of potential and you know,

1179
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:08,960
we're trying to, with, with the
system we have, we're trying to

1180
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,120
make it easier for people to do
this.

1181
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,600
I mean, you still need to do
some training and you need to

1182
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:18,000
know what you're doing.
But I really want more people

1183
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,000
involved because I think there's
still lots of untapped

1184
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,600
potential.
So if I'm a smaller mid size

1185
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,439
production company and I want to
call somebody up at at verge

1186
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:32,200
arrow and get into the drone
business, like to do, let's say

1187
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,200
I'm in a small city of 100,000
people and I don't know which

1188
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:38,000
city that is.
But let's say I'm in a small

1189
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:41,160
city of 100,000 people and I'm
like, I want to add this wrinkle

1190
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,279
to to our business model and put
it on our our, you know, door

1191
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:48,600
hanger.
And what kind of money, what

1192
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,439
kind of an investment, both from
a manpower standpoint and a

1193
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,360
training standpoint, but also
buying the hardware and software

1194
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,400
and everything else.
What is that huge numbers?

1195
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,280
Like give me a round Number.
Yeah.

1196
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,480
I mean, you know, in terms of
people generally the the recipe

1197
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:09,280
for success is having one point
person, OK, who becomes really

1198
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:13,680
knowledgeable and then, you
know, they ideally have a couple

1199
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,600
of people supporting them.
But you really want one person

1200
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,680
who becomes the pilot is like on
site and in charge and really

1201
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,000
knows the system inside out.
Like you don't need more than

1202
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:30,200
that, you know, in terms of in
terms of cost, right, You can

1203
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,400
you can get up to speed with,
you know, you know, a smaller

1204
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,600
investment like a 5000 grand and
a smaller number of drones, OK,

1205
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,160
just to get going and learn and
do smaller events.

1206
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,080
And then many of our customers,
they, you know, they start small

1207
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,800
and then they like add another
100 drones and they add another

1208
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,640
100 drones.
And now we have 1, like one of

1209
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:57,200
my favorite customers is a
campground in like Wisconsin.

1210
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:01,720
It's Jellystone Campground, OK.
And they bought 50 drones and

1211
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:05,600
they just had them flying every
Friday and Saturday, you know,

1212
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,600
in their, I think over their
lake.

1213
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,240
And they had like, you know, 5
or 6 different shows

1214
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,280
choreographed to different songs
and, you know, Oh yeah.

1215
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,320
And it's like the IT guy running
this.

1216
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:18,320
OK.
And then they bought more drones

1217
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:22,160
and now they're like, you know,
putting on drone shows in the in

1218
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,880
the area and they're now like
actually a, a drone show

1219
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,480
company, you know, going around
and, and doing this stuff right,

1220
01:11:27,480 --> 01:11:28,640
Jelly.
Stone drones.

1221
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,040
Uh huh.
It's like anybody can do this if

1222
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,920
you have a reasonable amount of
intelligence.

1223
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:36,120
Like you don't need to be super
smart.

1224
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,480
You just need to be, you know,
reasonably intelligent and

1225
01:11:39,480 --> 01:11:42,800
diligent and studying the
materials and, and, you know,

1226
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:47,280
gaining experience and whatnot
and, and off you off you go,

1227
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:48,960
right.
So I think there's going to be a

1228
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:52,480
lot more of this.
You think about like weddings

1229
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:55,720
and other events and, and again,
you like, you know, for some of

1230
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,840
these things, you don't, you
don't need 1000 drones to make

1231
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,920
an impact.
Like we've done parties and

1232
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,560
things just for fun with like 50
drones and with the right

1233
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,520
content, it looks killer, right?
So it all depends.

1234
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,480
Yeah, you're not going to want
to create like animated movies

1235
01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:12,320
with 50 drones.
You know, you're going to want

1236
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:16,040
to do more of a, like a
fireworks show kind of thing or

1237
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,400
a, you know, a smaller display
or whatever.

1238
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,760
But yeah, I completely get what
you're saying.

1239
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,600
You know it.
You have to think of them like

1240
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,120
pixels at the end of the day.
So if you want to do some

1241
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,520
elaborate video, it's got to
have lots and lots of drones.

1242
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,360
You need more pixels for sure.
Yeah, Well, that's interesting.

1243
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:34,920
Anything else?
Did I miss anything?

1244
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:41,400
No, I think that's basically it.
But on a completely different

1245
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,560
note, I love your enthusiasm for
AI.

1246
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:51,800
OK, I totally agree that it will
change how shows are programmed

1247
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,840
and become a tool for people to
use.

1248
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:57,280
And I'll even tell you a little
story.

1249
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:03,320
We even back in like the mid
1990s when I was doing lighting

1250
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:09,280
consoles, we started dabbling
with neural networks and we had

1251
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:15,040
a guy on a project for about a
year trying to do what you are

1252
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:17,920
thinking about.
But we were just way too early

1253
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:21,520
and the and the product was
called the show box, OK.

1254
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,640
And the idea was more for more
for club lighting, OK, Basically

1255
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:30,000
to have a box and have it
automatically generate

1256
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,360
interesting looks based on music
and other inputs and and stuff

1257
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:37,440
like that, right.
And it kind of we dropped it

1258
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:41,040
after about a year of effort
because it was just OK, right?

1259
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,000
It just, you know, it wasn't, it
wasn't it wasn't good enough,

1260
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,640
right?
But there's no, you know, So

1261
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,080
I've been thinking about it ever
since and I think now is the

1262
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:50,880
time.
I think the underlying

1263
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:55,000
technologies have finally become
sufficiently robust that there

1264
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:59,680
is absolutely no reason why this
isn't going to get deployed as a

1265
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,360
tool in show design.
You know what, though, Nils,

1266
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:09,600
it's, it's an interesting
challenge because like IIA small

1267
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,600
company, I don't even remember
the name of them, but not last

1268
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:17,520
year at LDI, but I think it was
the previous LDI put a, they

1269
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:21,080
have a show box like what you're
talking about very much the

1270
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:25,360
exact business plan that you
just mentioned, nightclubs

1271
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:30,200
primarily, and this box would
just program your show and and

1272
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,280
off you go.
And so they put a sign up

1273
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:36,040
saying, you know, fire your LD
or something like that.

1274
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:40,640
You don't need them anymore.
And literally they had a line up

1275
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:45,360
of LDS at their booth saying,
you know, I want you thrown off

1276
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,440
the show floor.
I don't even want you on this

1277
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:49,560
show.
You're disgusting human being.

1278
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:51,880
Like just tearing this guy in
half.

1279
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,600
Like I, I don't know the guy, I
don't know the company.

1280
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,960
It was probably in bad taste,
the signage that he put up.

1281
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:04,280
But you know, what I keep saying
to people is you can't stop

1282
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,520
this.
You're not going to stop this.

1283
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:10,200
It's happening and so you really
need to learn about it.

1284
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,240
And so I put out a LinkedIn
post, I don't know, a month ago

1285
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,880
or something and I just said,
hey, look, you know, half hour

1286
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,280
of my time for free.
I'll give you a sort of a

1287
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:24,920
starter AI course on how you can
start incorporating AI into your

1288
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,520
life and Business Today
immediately in a very powerful

1289
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:35,520
and rewarding way.
And the 1st strange thing was I

1290
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,440
didn't get a lot of response.
And yet no one in our business

1291
01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:44,080
hardly uses AI yet other than
maybe your very basic writing an

1292
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:49,000
e-mail or something like that.
And then I started getting sort

1293
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,080
of a ground rumble and people
were telling other people or

1294
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,600
reposting it on their Facebook
or whatever, or LinkedIn.

1295
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:58,600
And so I've done a dozen of
these.

1296
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:03,320
It's been absolutely my time
spent, you know what I mean?

1297
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:07,160
Like no return expected, not
charging anything, would never

1298
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,360
charge anything.
I'm not an AI expert.

1299
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:13,520
I'm just a heavy user.
And but the value has been

1300
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:16,240
tremendous for these people.
Like I get people emailing me or

1301
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:18,480
calling me back going, you
wouldn't believe what I just

1302
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:20,160
did.
And they tell me the whole thing

1303
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,480
and I'm like, that is a perfect
use case, you know, and then

1304
01:16:23,480 --> 01:16:24,800
we'll talk about it a little
more.

1305
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:30,840
And so it's just funny how slow
we've been to adopt such

1306
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:34,480
powerful tools to what we're
doing.

1307
01:16:34,480 --> 01:16:36,640
So I just don't see any time
soon.

1308
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:41,040
Like MA owns 98% of the control
market right now.

1309
01:16:41,480 --> 01:16:45,240
And I don't see them suddenly
putting in self programming

1310
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:47,120
desks.
You know, that's just not going

1311
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:51,120
to happen yet, right?
Even though they could, you

1312
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,960
know?
But what they can do, Yeah.

1313
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:56,880
I mean, it's it's it's just like
an effects engine, OK?

1314
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:01,960
You know, you give people the
tools to make their shows even

1315
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:06,400
better, right?
But of course, the the logical

1316
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:10,640
progression of this is that at
some point, maybe those tools

1317
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:15,280
are completely autonomous.
And, you know, maybe for some

1318
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:18,280
shows, you don't even need a
designer, right?

1319
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:23,920
I mean, that almost seems like
an inevitability, but you know,

1320
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,080
the, the the reality is maybe,
you know, with some smaller

1321
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:30,600
shows and smaller events and
things, right?

1322
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,960
I mean, there's not a lot of
design happening anyway.

1323
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,840
And you kind of have somebody
who's doing it halftime or part

1324
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,480
time and doesn't necessarily
mean that they're going to be

1325
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:42,200
out of a job, right?
It just means it could be better

1326
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:43,720
I.
Think it's changing, it's

1327
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:45,320
whatever.
And we always pick on the

1328
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:48,400
lighting guys and say lighting
designers, lighting consoles,

1329
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:50,400
etcetera.
But I spoke to an audio

1330
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,840
manufacturer a couple weeks.
Ago 100%.

1331
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,800
And I said, how long before you
know, you don't need a guy

1332
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:58,360
standing in front of house at
the console or you don't even

1333
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,080
need a console.
You know, you just need a box

1334
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,240
that's storing all that
information and, and changing

1335
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:06,640
that information throughout the
set list or whatever.

1336
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:10,520
And he said it's it's there.
The technology's there right

1337
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,040
now.
We have products that are coming

1338
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:16,400
out that, you know, won't leap
all the way there because you

1339
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,000
got to be careful not to lose
market share over this kind of a

1340
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,360
thing, right?
But yeah, I mean, that's the

1341
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:22,720
reality.
Technology's there.

1342
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:25,880
If like, I don't know if you saw
last week that that Tesla

1343
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:28,960
delivered their first car
autonomously, you know, to the

1344
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:32,400
guy's house and, you know, it
had to cross all the way across

1345
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,800
town going through stoplights
and, you know, all the things

1346
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,800
that a normal drive would have
to do.

1347
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:42,760
And it showed up at the buyer's
house and very safely, you know.

1348
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:47,320
So that to me tells me that if
you can do that, you can

1349
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:51,120
probably you can probably run a
typical rock'n'roll show, you

1350
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:52,720
know, without a lot of people
involved.

1351
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:57,160
So yeah, I don't know, like, I,
I'm not wishing anybody out of

1352
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,880
jobs, certainly not because
these are all my friends and,

1353
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:02,000
and certainly my guests on my
podcast as well.

1354
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:05,960
But I am saying that don't
ignore it because I think it's

1355
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:09,000
real.
Yeah, and I think most of the

1356
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,600
people on your podcast are would
never be out of a job, OK,

1357
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,600
because for the for the top of
the top, yeah.

1358
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:18,000
And the big spectacles and the
biggest events and things

1359
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,960
they're always going to need,
you know, a creative designer

1360
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,240
and etcetera, right.
But you know, maybe some of the

1361
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,800
smaller gigs or or whatever
where there's not a lot of

1362
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:33,720
budget anyway, maybe those those
are are are natural applications

1363
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:34,680
for easy.
Pickens.

1364
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,720
Yeah, or, or even on the big
gigs, right.

1365
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:40,200
So certain cues are developed
that way, but you still want to

1366
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,040
stitch them together in an
intelligent way or, or whatever,

1367
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:43,760
right.
So we'll.

1368
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,360
See, well, and also I some of
those things where you're, you

1369
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,160
know, setting up your show,
setting up the rig, you know,

1370
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,640
addressing fixtures, like all of
those tedious things that you

1371
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:57,280
have to do every time you start
before you actually program a

1372
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,360
light to do anything.
You know, like a lot of those

1373
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:04,120
things need to disappear first.
You know, so that instead of

1374
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,880
spaying spending, you know, 10
days on on, you know, pre

1375
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,920
production or whatever, you're
spending one day or two days or

1376
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:12,640
whatever it is.
I don't know what the actual

1377
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,160
math is and all that, but you
know what I'm saying.

1378
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:20,440
So what what about drone shows?
Like are you guys getting AI?

1379
01:20:20,440 --> 01:20:23,360
And I'm sure AI will become
involved in safety, where it's

1380
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,680
predicting problems and solving
problems before they happen and

1381
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:30,280
all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I mean, I think the the

1382
01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:33,280
natural application is creating
content OK, like really

1383
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,040
interesting 3D elements.
And you know, we've we've

1384
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:38,680
experimented a little bit with
it and, you know, gotten OK

1385
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:42,200
results.
We probably need to spend a

1386
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:47,160
little more effort on it.
And undoubtedly AI will be used

1387
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:50,760
to generate drone shows.
I mean, we we use it intensively

1388
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:54,320
to generate code.
I mean, that's pretty common all

1389
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:58,040
over the place, right?
I think, you know, even Google,

1390
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:01,200
I can't remember what the number
is, but a very significant

1391
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:04,800
percentage of their code is now
generated by AI, like, yeah, you

1392
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:06,960
know, something like that.
I mean, a staggering number.

1393
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:12,000
Yeah.
So, I mean, it's here and it's

1394
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:13,920
happening.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

1395
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:19,160
I mean, I think the big
challenge is hiring AI coders is

1396
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,040
so expensive right now.
Like when you're competing with

1397
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,240
the Googles and Open AIS and
like, did you see this Facebook

1398
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,080
thing, Meta thing a couple weeks
ago where they're going to pay

1399
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:32,160
$100 million for you to leave
your job at Open AI, a signing

1400
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:37,720
bonus of $100 million?
What the hell is that, you know?

1401
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:41,880
Yeah, that's insane.
So, you know, like I I've heard

1402
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:44,520
people say about the drone
business while in the military,

1403
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:46,160
they certainly have that
technology.

1404
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:48,040
OK.
You know, military has this

1405
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,520
interesting, you know,
bottomless budget, whereas, you

1406
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:53,280
know, Verge, Arrow is a small
company.

1407
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:55,480
Most of these drone companies
are small companies.

1408
01:21:55,480 --> 01:21:58,360
You know, they're they're
probably sub $100 million

1409
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:01,320
companies.
They don't have $100 million

1410
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:05,080
signing bonuses to hand out to
to AI guys, you know.

1411
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:09,080
So, yeah, it's interesting, but
cool.

1412
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,600
Well, thank you so much for
doing this, Nils.

1413
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:13,600
You are so welcome, as always, I
love.

1414
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,320
Talking with you, I I always
enjoy talking with you and we

1415
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:18,200
hardly ever do it on a personal
level.

1416
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,240
So just got to get you on the
podcast every few years to

1417
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,600
although you're seem to be
slowing down your work now.

1418
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:26,840
So I don't know if you're going
to have anything useful for me

1419
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:29,360
anymore.
Well, we'll see.

1420
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,240
We'll see.
I I keep on getting sucked into

1421
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,120
all kinds of things.
So yeah, yeah, who knows.

1422
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:38,800
But hopefully I'll make it down
to Florida or Canada at some

1423
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,200
point and I'll stop by.
Cool.

1424
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:43,280
Well, thanks.
Appreciate you nails.

1425
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:44,920
All right, take care.
Yeah.