#258 - Ken Lennon

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So just imagine that you grow up
in Southern California, you go

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to Disney with your family
often, you spend all your time

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at theme parks and, and
specifically at Disney.

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And you love Disney.
And you go to college and you

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decide you're going to be a
theater person.

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And straight out of college, you
happen to find yourself landing

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in Disney.
And next thing you know, you've

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spent 37 years working for one
company.

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And it happens to be the
happiest place on earth and the

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most magical job you could
imagine.

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So that is what today's guest
did.

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It was a great discussion,
brilliant lighting designer,

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brilliant man, great stories.
And I think you'll really like

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it.
So I hope you enjoy episode #258

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today with a an excellent
person, a great designer, Mr.

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Ken Lennon.
Hello and thanks for joining me

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00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:07,240
today on episode #250.
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today at obsidiancontrol.com.
Hello again.

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00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,400
And so, yeah, I've got a great
podcast for you today.

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I am really looking forward to
recording this and to speaking

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with this gentleman, and I'll
tell you more about him in a

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minute.
I really didn't prep a lot of

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stuff to talk to you about
today, so I'm really sorry to

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disappoint you, but not a lot on
AAI today.

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There is actually a lot going
on.

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And I did want to do an AI
discussion today, but I've been

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traveling for a couple of days.
I had to go to Los Angeles for a

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board meeting.
Just kind of running around like

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a lunatic as a result.
So yeah, no big AI update for me

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today.
I am so sorry.

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Olympics.
So what did you think of the

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opening ceremony?
Certainly I know there's a lot

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of mixed opinions about the the
event or the ceremony itself or

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the production, I should say.
Not the production as in

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lighting and sound, but
production as in the

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entertainment or the the show
itself.

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As far as technical values or
technical capabilities, you

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know, one of our sponsors from
the podcast today, Elation had a

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lot to do with it.
They had some some fixtures on

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the Eiffel Tower, of course, I
believe, I can't remember the

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name of the laser company and I
should remember it because it is

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a French company.
They did a spectacular job.

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I thought the laser show was
really incredible.

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The beams coming off of the
tower was pretty incredible.

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A lot of other really cool
elements too.

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So bravo overall on on at least
the production quality as far as

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the lighting and and that stuff.
Again, whatever your opinion is

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on on the rest of it, that's
your opinion.

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I have my own as well, but we
won't get into that.

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So today on the podcast, really
excited to have this gentleman.

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Remarkably, I don't know him.
I, I should because of my

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experience in this industry, the
things that I've done for the

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number of years that I've done
them, but I don't know.

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So Ken Lennon is a recently
retired executive lighting

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designer for Walt Disney
Imagineering.

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His designs over the last 37
years have included such iconic

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trans attractions as Cars Land
at Disney California Adventure,

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Star Wars Galaxy's Edge at
Disneyland, and Walt Disney

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World New Fantasyland at Tokyo
Disneyland.

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Ken attended UCLA where he
received both ABA and MFA and

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theater.
He started with the Walt Disney

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Company in 1987 at the newly
created Disney Stores design

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team.
Throughout his career, Ken has

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worked with several lighting
manufacturers to develop

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products conducive to the
changing entertainment and

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sustainability environments.
In his spare time, Ken enjoys

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any kind of live entertainment,
especially concerts and theatre,

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and also loves to speak to
students about lighting and

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encouraging the next generation
to see lighting as a beautiful

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art form.
Love to hear that in his

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retirement, he hopes to travel
and chase the things he loves

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all around the world.
And so he's got an incredible

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story.
He's got a lot of really cool

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stories to share.
It's interesting.

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Anyways, I'm going to get on
with it.

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So here you are with episode
#258 Ken Lennon.

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Ken Lennon.
Hello.

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Hey, how are you?
Good to see you.

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Doing well, you look, you look
absolutely retired.

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You know, I was, I'm more than
ready for it.

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So I had myself a Goodyear to
plan for it.

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And so I'm I'm sliding right
into it.

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Yeah.
You know, if I was to, you know,

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be a guy who worked in animation
in, in Imagineering or

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something, and I drew up a
picture of a retired guy, he'd

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look just like you do right now
on my screen.

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Perfect.
I'm glad to be the poster child

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for retired Imagineering.
You've got the perfect

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retirement shirt on, the perfect
retirement glasses.

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You look pretty relaxed.
Yeah, if you had a pina colada

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in your hand, that's the only
thing that could.

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Well, I was just on cruise shift
last week, so I have my share.

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Oh yeah, Colada so.
Was it a Disney Cruise?

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Ship it was not it was not
haven't done that yet so.

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Really.
You haven't done a Disney Cruise

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ship.
I have not, yeah.

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Well, you don't.
I mean, you probably you don't

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have grandkids yet do.
You.

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No, not yet.
OK, Yeah.

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I mean, I will tell you, and
this isn't blowing smoke because

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you were a lifelong Disney
employee, but when my son was

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young, he, my son grew up with
no choice but to be a Disney

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fanatic because his mother was a
lifelong Disney fanatic as well.

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And so he grew up every like at
least one weekend a month,

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because we live in in Palm
Beach.

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And at least one weekend a month
he'd be at Disney.

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And so when Disney came out with
cruise ships, we went on a

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Disney cruise ship.
And I'll tell you, it was an

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incredible experience.
Like, I'm not a big Disney guy

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and there was no casino, I guess
is the only downside.

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But there were bars and but the
cool thing is as soon as we got

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on the ship, I'm going to have
to remember.

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So they gave us, and this was a
while ago.

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This was probably 16 years ago,
15 years ago.

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So they gave us a beeper and he
had a wristband that had some

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code or whatever on it that if
anyone found him by himself at

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any point, they knew how to
reach us.

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It was a beeper code or
something.

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And so we would get a beeper and
we'd have to call them right

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away and they'd tell us where to
meet them or something.

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I don't remember how that whole
communication happened.

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But the other thing was we had
matching wristbands.

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And so to get him off the ship,
you had to match the two

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wristbands, his and yours.
To get him to move around, you

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basically had to match
wristbands so they knew you were

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his parent.
And so it was, it was really

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cool because you could actually
just dump him in a room with a

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bunch of cool things to climb on
and throw at each other and

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stuff.
Bunch of kids in there.

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It was like a, it was like a big
floating daycare center that

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allowed us to hang out at the
adult pool and drink cocktails,

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you know.
And the other thing was there

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were, there was a pool where you
couldn't be above a certain

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height to get into that pool.
So you had to be little kids.

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No big kids could go in there.
That was really cool.

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And water slides that were just
for little kids and stuff.

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So I loved it.
They did it well.

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They did it like you'd expect
from Disney.

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Yeah, I have adult friends
who've done it and without kids

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and had a great time and really
separated away from kids and

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they had their own, their own
experience.

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So, huh.
So it's all our list of things

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to do so.
Yeah, yeah.

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Well, I would wait until you
have grandkids because that'll

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be really fun.
It's amazing.

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Like as you know, from a
lifetime of experiences, just

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the way kids faces light up when
they see Mickey or Goofy or

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whatever, you know, it's like,
whoa.

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And so yeah, we loved it.
We did it I think two or three

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times and really, really enjoyed
it because, you know, sometimes

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you can't get away from the kids
stuff.

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But on the on the Disney cruise
ships, they do give you an adult

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pool and they do give you some
bars and stuff that you can do.

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So I liked it.
And I'm not a big gambler, so I

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didn't miss the casino.
But so anyways, you know,

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starting from from the
beginning.

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00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,000
I mean, again, congratulations
on an entire career in one

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company that's as iconic as
Disney.

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Like, incredible.
It's again I look back and it

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feels like it's been, you know,
a week.

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But for it to be 37 years is
just it's truly fallen by that

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is say to to survive in one
company and do art like we do is

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00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,120
really Oh yeah.
And lucky and I can travel the

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world in all the places done so
many different kinds of design

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00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,720
then it's really I've had a
great time.

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Yeah.
Well, and I don't mean to

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oversimplify it, but not only
designing in one company, but

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designing in a company with the
imagination and the room to to

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move and maneuver like you have
when you're designing something

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at Disney.
And I'm not going to say

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unlimited budgets, but you have
budgets that most of us don't

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have.
Let's.

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00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,840
Say right, absolutely so and now
and we're always you know

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criticized about Oh well, you're
you only do great work because

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00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,000
you have unlimited budgets well,
we don't have unlimited budgets,

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00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,680
right we have larger budgets to
do attractions than most other

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companies have, but we sit
inside of that budget right so.

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An impossible expectations
possible.

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00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,120
Expectations.
Yeah, right, right.

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00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,560
So, so our work, you know, the
my budget scale with the

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attraction scale, Yeah.
So, you know, we're spending

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that kind of money.
Lighting comes up from the

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bottom of everybody else, and
nobody wants to spend any more

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00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,880
money on lighting, even in our
company than they have to.

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00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,480
So one of the blessings I always
had is that I sat at the table

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as an equal with my team
members, right?

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00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,560
So when I told them I needed
more money to be successful, to

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light their attraction, I sat
there with all the power, as in

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the manager, me or not sitting
there as a consultant whose best

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interest it was not to attack
the client and tell the client

229
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that I didn't have enough
planning to be successful.

230
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Yeah.
So that was a unique dynamic

231
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,720
that I was I was lucky to have.
And again, we there were always

232
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,600
the knock down drag outs when
you started.

233
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,720
Like everybody wants it to be
free and it's not free.

234
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,760
Yeah.
So, you know, so yeah, it was.

235
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:56,400
I was.
I'm truly lucky.

236
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,120
And it's not like as it's not as
though when projects scale,

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00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,520
budgets suddenly go away.
Yes, it's a larger number, but

238
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you still have to fit in that
number.

239
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,880
And again, with larger numbers
and larger scale comes larger

240
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,840
expectations.
And so, you know, Bob Iger or

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00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,800
insert, you know, leader here
walks in and and they need to be

242
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,920
wowed.
You know, even though they are

243
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,040
jaded, as jaded as you could
possibly be when you're the head

244
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,440
of Disney, you know they need to
be wowed by the latest

245
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,160
attraction.
And if they walk in and go, this

246
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,120
is flat.
Lighting's gonna be one of the

247
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,960
big things that makes it flat or
makes it wow, right?

248
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,840
Right.
And I always tell my peers when

249
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,280
they're in that fighting for
scope, schedule and budget, that

250
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,280
if you give up before you start
the design, when you get to the

251
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,640
end and it's not what people
expect, nobody cares how you got

252
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,640
there, right?
They look at you and say, hey,

253
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,120
it's flat or it's dark or it
should be this.

254
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,280
At that moment it's too late
because all the time, all the

255
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,640
money, it's all gone and you've
delivered a thing that is not

256
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,960
something that's.
An excellent point.

257
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,000
That anybody's wanted.
And so.

258
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,120
So I'm like always, always,
always, always, always, yeah.

259
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,560
Have a vision and fight for it.
Yeah, in the beginning.

260
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,800
Well, and there's there, you
know, just because you spend a

261
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,560
lot of money too, doesn't mean
that it's an excellent design.

262
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,920
And just because you know,
whatever, just because you had

263
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,720
an excellent design and they
didn't give you the right

264
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,120
budget, it might.
Fail there too, so.

265
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,960
Yeah, I mean, again, I, I would
never discount the fact that

266
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,080
like, I've seen a lot of live
shows, I've seen architectural

267
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:40,840
installations where they had
massive budgets and it was just

268
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,400
gross.
You know, it's like a ton of

269
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800
lights in your face all the time
isn't the right solution either,

270
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,840
right.
So adding, you know, finesse and

271
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,520
nuance and, and holding back,
you know, the dark spaces, like

272
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,480
as so many designers would say,
you know, darkness is one of the

273
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,400
most important parts of, of
lighting design.

274
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:06,000
Black is an important color and,
and so, yeah, but I wanted to go

275
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,960
back because you have such an
incredible story of so you went

276
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,160
to UCLAUCLA and and you got ABA
and an MFA in theater.

277
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:22,240
And so in the 80s that wasn't as
popular as it is today.

278
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,440
You know, for people to enter
lighting through like structure

279
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,520
and and rigid pathways, it's
usually by accident.

280
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,160
And so you just went through
high school and decided I'm

281
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,800
going to go to college and get a
theater degree.

282
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200
You know, so I'm so I discovered
like showing people theater and

283
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,000
lighting design in high school.
OK.

284
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,960
And then after high school, I'm
like, I didn't I didn't apply

285
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,560
the UCLA sister.
I did.

286
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,520
I went to the Community College
around the corner from my house,

287
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,040
Cerritos College.
And the gentleman Scott Nielsen,

288
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,000
who ran, who was the production
manager, who ran that theatre,

289
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,359
was a UCLA graduate.
And so I found, so I learned a

290
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,680
lot while I was there and
through his guys like, hey, you,

291
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,119
you should be, you should be at
UCLA.

292
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,000
And I'm like, OK, sure that that
could be a thing.

293
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,920
And that time Cerritos College
and La Mirada Theatre did have

294
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,680
had a summer program went the
Conservatory Theater, where they

295
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,560
brought professionals in from
all over the United States.

296
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,880
And we did crazy giant shows and
Rep in the theaters at Cerritos

297
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,640
and also at the long run Civic.
And I met a bunch of

298
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,120
professionals there and some
staff from UCLA and like, Hey,

299
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,920
you should be at UCLA.
I'm like, OK, so I'll apply.

300
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,920
And so literally it was it was
really bad.

301
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,080
You know, people outside said
this is a place you should go.

302
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,320
And I had respect for the
professionals and the and all

303
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,760
the the instructors who I worked
with.

304
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,600
You had some passion, obviously
towards theater and.

305
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,240
Towards the process, that's what
I wanted to do.

306
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,680
I discovered lighting early on.
You know, it's as I look back, I

307
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,560
grew up in Southern California.
I grew up in theme parks.

308
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,280
My mom, dad had us out all the
time.

309
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,840
We must have just been
horrendous kids to be have

310
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,600
locked in the house because we
were everywhere.

311
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,800
Knots and Disneyland, Japanese
Deer Park, Busch Gardens.

312
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,480
Like if there was a place mom
could drive the kids to get us

313
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,600
out of the house when we were
there.

314
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,760
And for Southern California was
theme parks.

315
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,440
But again, didn't know that that
defined my design aesthetic

316
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,720
until until much later.
Incredible story to me that you

317
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,160
launched a 37 year career with
Disney from like a post on the

318
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,640
bulletin board.
Exactly right.

319
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,040
So I'm graduating.
I know my MFA.

320
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,240
I'm trying to figure out what
I'm what I'm supposed to be

321
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,640
doing at that time.
I'd been hired to to like Pope

322
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,440
John Paul the second he was on a
a world tour and gonna stop and

323
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,040
do a lecture for Catholic
Charities in Texas.

324
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,440
Wow.
So my August September were

325
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,120
booked but that's all I had.
Who hired you to do that?

326
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,680
Gary, he knows who was an MFA
student when I was an

327
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,360
undergraduate.
So he got hired to do as the

328
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,640
production manager and said,
hey, you want to like the Pope?

329
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,280
I'm like, I hear the Pope's
Catholics, so sure, let me go.

330
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,600
That would be fun.
Yeah.

331
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,440
So I signed up for that and.
Then as your first gig.

332
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,880
That's my first gig.
Like sure, I'll meet the Pope.

333
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,560
Yeah.
Had no expectations and indeed

334
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,680
met the Pope.
Saw the Pope mobile you know,

335
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,640
the minute that I signed up my
call, Paul waiting.

336
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,360
Quit working on my phones.
And I was sure that I was being,

337
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,240
you know, monitored by people
who wanted to know who's going

338
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,280
to go, you know, be in personal
contact with.

339
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:41,320
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

340
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,360
So.
So that was a gig I already had

341
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,120
lined up.
So again, at this point, I'd

342
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,560
grown up in theme parks.
Didn't occur to me that people

343
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,400
made a living building or
designing or lighting theme

344
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,960
parks at that point.
A measuring was still completely

345
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,960
cloak and dagger didn't know
anything about them so I'm

346
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,800
walking out of the lobby of the
theater and there's a there's a

347
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,480
poster on the literally AT8F11
says hey, Disneyland's looking

348
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,960
to higher techs to like set up
and strike band gear for grad

349
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,040
night.
So I'm like oh that could be

350
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,160
fun.
You know so all so sure like I

351
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,680
could do that until I go off and
I meet the Pope.

352
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,200
Yeah so yeah side hustle for you
know, set up work third shift

353
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,960
and set up stuff I that'd be
that could be fun so I went to

354
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,480
Disneyland applied.
At that point it was, you know,

355
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,880
handwritten applications to a
person at the desk didn't hear

356
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,000
anything from them.
But then I got a call a few

357
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,560
weeks later from Disneyland and
what had happened was the they

358
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,960
were Disney had just launched
the Disney stores and they they

359
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,720
were did the first one in
Glendale Galleria that I

360
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,120
attended because I was a Disney
fan and thought, oh, this is

361
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,760
crazy.
This changes retail, but didn't

362
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,120
think anything about it.
They had done built their second

363
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,920
store, which was at Pier 39 in
San Francisco.

364
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,760
And that I learned that the
decorating apartment at

365
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,000
Disneyland was the team that was
that was chartered to build and

366
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,720
install the stores because they
had all the history with Disney

367
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,560
characters and building scale
furniture and displays for the

368
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,320
animated windows that they're
the group.

369
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,360
So Jim Caldwell, who managed
that group, said to HR, hey,

370
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,920
pull anybody with a theater
resume because I think we're

371
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,320
going to have to staff up here
at the park to build these

372
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,200
Disney Store things.
And I was in that stack because

373
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,440
I'd applied for the for the band
gear stuff.

374
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,200
I'm just like, yeah, I know.
Again, not a.

375
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,840
Place amazing isn't it I?
Had this great interview with

376
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,160
him.
He's like, I'm not sure if we're

377
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,160
going to expand Disneyland or
create a new group at the

378
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,960
studio.
I won't know until end of

379
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:41,240
September.
I'm like, hey, that's not a

380
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,200
problem.
I'm going to go off and like the

381
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,280
Pope and I'll be back in
mid-september.

382
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,840
And so he said great.
So I while I was in Texas doing

383
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,240
lighten up up, I got a call.
Hey, we're going to hire you.

384
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,280
We're going to start a new group
out of the studio.

385
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,280
Let's know when you get back.
So mid-september on the Disney

386
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:05,080
Store design center was born.
It was me and wow, five other

387
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,160
people handpicked from gym, most
from Disneyland, the decorating

388
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,240
apt.
I was the only person who was

389
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,560
completely outside the group.
Everybody else either came from

390
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,880
Disneyland.
There was a sculptor, Patty, who

391
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,440
who was the acquaintance of Gym.
So I was the only outsider and

392
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,520
we set up in a in nondescript
tilt up warehouse in Commerce,

393
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,560
CA and started making Disney
stores.

394
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,400
That is incredible.
It was incredible.

395
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,240
I mean, you got to think, you
know, of all the things that had

396
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:41,320
to go right for that to start
your 37 year career with Disney.

397
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,440
You know, if you hadn't looked
at the bulletin board, if you

398
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,640
hadn't worked up the, you know,
the, the confidence or whatever

399
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,160
to apply for that job, if they
hadn't made the decision to hire

400
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,240
a theatrical designer for store
design, You know, which because

401
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,640
I mean, retail lighting design
is obviously a really big thing.

402
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,720
You weren't trained in that you
were a theatrical designer.

403
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,320
And so, I mean, I guess Disney's
one of those few things where

404
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,680
it's a very similar experience
to walking through a theme park

405
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,960
when you're in their retail
stores.

406
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,400
And that's what they wanted, I
would guess, but just incredible

407
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,720
that all those pieces fell
together and.

408
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,160
Yeah.
And again, there's no

409
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,720
understanding of how the plan
like that's awesome.

410
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,200
And as a theater person to do
retail because Disney was new in

411
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,400
retail and I didn't know
anything about retail on in

412
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,360
design.
And before I got there, the

413
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,800
designs were being done by
architects who were not lighting

414
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,040
designers.
So they needed a lighting

415
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,760
designer.
And again, it all came together.

416
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,640
So you probably had to learn a
lot fairly quickly though from

417
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,120
an architectural design
standpoint, right?

418
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,840
Or even just just like electric
and stuff like.

419
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,720
Yes, So, yeah.
So that's.

420
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,240
Yeah.
So that was fascinating because

421
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,640
half of those spaces were show
spaces, right?

422
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280
They were, there were the scenes
with the characters and things,

423
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:08,320
and that was a very thing,
right.

424
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,080
But then everything else was
about retail.

425
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,160
Yeah.
So the first thing that I just I

426
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,880
started to look for were
fixtures that made sense to me

427
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,200
as a lying designer and as a
theatrical lying.

428
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,840
Yeah.
Because instantly color it was

429
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,480
important to me as a lion
designer in the first two stores

430
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,120
there was, it was, you know,
white Mr. Sixteens and that's

431
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,360
what they had on, you know,
color, color is important.

432
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,880
These are theatrical spaces, so
we need to find a fixture that

433
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:43,080
will take color.
So, so we're in to store three

434
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,840
or four and we're in a meeting
with, you know, the the retail

435
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,200
people and the real estate
people trying to figure out what

436
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,960
we're going to do.
So I need a fixture that takes

437
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,040
time.
So we're have a knock down, drag

438
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,400
out discussion, something that
would follow me my whole career.

439
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,600
And I said, well, wait a second.
So I left the room, got on the

440
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,800
phone with Robert Riccadilli at
Times Square and said, hey, you

441
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,560
make the cute little 3 inch
MR16.

442
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,840
I mean a three inch for a nail.
Could that take an MR16 and be a

443
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,640
track fixture?
And he says, yes, there was no

444
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,080
such fixture at the time.
I then walked back in the room

445
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,080
and said, OK, I got AI got a
fixture.

446
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,320
We got it.
It's it's theatrical.

447
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,040
It fits the theme in stores.
It'll take color.

448
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,760
It takes this crazy new MR16
lamp that was absolutely brand

449
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,680
new and nobody had seen anything
about it.

450
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,600
I certainly, you know, I had
that in some zip strips when I

451
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,480
was, you know, right, theater
stuff.

452
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,800
But it wasn't, it wasn't yet out
and in a lamp that anybody knew

453
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,800
anything about.
So so that was my first foray

454
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,840
into hey, I need I need a
fixture.

455
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,480
Let's find someone to make a
fixture to solve the problems

456
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,000
and didn't that I wanted
imagineering.

457
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,480
Yeah.
Did lamp life become a problem

458
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,120
on those in in the stores?
Like did you know in store?

459
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,440
Personnel climbing ladders to.
Change Mr. Sixteens it's so

460
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,560
funny because maintenance is
such a huge deal for

461
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,040
imagineering of course such an
important role of back then you

462
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,640
know I truly cannot tell you who
whoever went back and you know

463
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,160
they were 2000 arrow lamps and
that's what retail.

464
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:19,560
That was the numbers that made
sense to us back then.

465
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,280
Yeah.
But I we rarely went back into a

466
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,640
store after we we do it.
So we would design the store, we

467
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,400
would build it was it was a
complete theatrical experience.

468
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,520
We would come up with the store
concept and in the early days,

469
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,880
each store was specifically
designed for where it was.

470
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,320
So the South Coast Plaza store
was beach theme and we did one

471
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,560
in Del Amo, which was the center
of aerospace that was space

472
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,000
themed.
And so so we were doing unique

473
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,840
theatrical designs.
We would build them, we blow

474
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,680
them on a truck we'd made by the
truck.

475
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,240
We'd fly to where the store was,
we'd unpack the truck, we'd work

476
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,760
with the Oakland crews to
install it.

477
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,760
So it was really a theatrical
workflow that I was familiar

478
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,920
with and that went on for a
number.

479
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:12,160
Of years, Matt, were you ever in
a like forced to work alongside

480
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,200
with architectural lighting
designers or.

481
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,880
No, no, once I showed up, we
just took it over.

482
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,160
Oh wow.
Yeah.

483
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,560
And and figured out how to do it
And.

484
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,120
And in the Imagineering, which
was played that well, all we've

485
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,720
ever hired are theatrical lines.
That is who that is the core of

486
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:32,960
Imagineering.
Yeah.

487
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,640
A lying.
Design, and then they just need

488
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,480
to learn the additional skills
that they need to design an

489
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,200
architectural project or
whatever.

490
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,680
Yeah.
Tools are different, but the

491
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,320
rules are the same, right?
It's about.

492
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,520
That makes sense.
Angle, color, texture,

493
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,400
intensity.
Whether it's a restaurant or

494
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,680
whether it's a wall of Mickey
T-shirts.

495
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:49,320
Right.
Yeah.

496
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,920
Or it's a pirate bolted to the
floor.

497
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,040
The rules are the same.
So we just had to learn to use

498
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,520
different tools.
Yeah.

499
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,880
And I can teach you about the
tools, but I really can't teach

500
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,400
you about the art.
You have to have That's true for

501
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,120
the art.
And that makes a lot of sense.

502
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:09,840
All those spaces are art spaces.
Whether again, whether it's a

503
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920
churro cart with, you know, some
down lights in the theme, light

504
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,080
on outside of in the Fantasyland
or whether it's a giant E ticket

505
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,200
attraction, we just need to see
it and have a vision and

506
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,600
understand doing that.
So how long were you in the in

507
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,000
the store side of things,
Disney?

508
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,360
Stores for about 2 1/2 years.
Like I said, the early days,

509
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,720
every store was unique.
We were building 3 and four

510
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,160
stores a year.
And you could do that as a group

511
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,240
of, you know, 10 people in a
warehouse building.

512
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,240
Stuff like, oh, we wanted to 20
stores.

513
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,640
I'm like, well, we can't build
20 unique stores.

514
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,840
Yeah.
So then the model became, we do

515
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,280
a single store interior theme
for a year, and then each store

516
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,040
had an animating window out
front and the animated windows

517
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,000
would be different.
So there was still some interest

518
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,840
there.
That was still fun and that was

519
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,920
unique.
And so it wasn't stale.

520
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,960
Yeah.
And then they wanted to do 50

521
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,280
stores.
I'm like, well, we can't make

522
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,800
anything, you know, unique.
And we went to we would do the

523
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,120
design.
I would still design the

524
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,760
lighting, but then we went to
local scenic shops.

525
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,320
They built the scenery.
And then we'd still fly out and

526
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,720
put it in.
But then it then then it wasn't

527
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,760
theater and it wasn't it wasn't
the fun unique stuff that I did

528
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,080
really did.
Yeah.

529
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,240
So I found myself not to dish
Cleveland, OH, but I found

530
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,440
myself in a store in Cleveland,
OH and back.

531
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,120
This is before cell phone.
So, you know, we flew out.

532
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,160
I got there.
The store was nowhere ready for

533
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,840
us to show up to install
scenery.

534
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,560
And of course, project
management wouldn't tell, You

535
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,920
know, leadership, oh, please,
we're going to defer this for a

536
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,120
month.
So I get there.

537
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,480
It's not ready for me.
I'm like, oh, this isn't any

538
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,480
fun.
But at that point, Michael

539
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,320
Eisner wanted to do healthy fast
food for kids.

540
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,520
So we were, we were entertaining
a concept that was a store

541
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,440
restaurant combination, like,
oh, well, that would be fun to

542
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,640
light a restaurant.
I've never done that before,

543
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,600
right?
So I, so I hung on to do that.

544
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,320
And then we did Chef Mickey's,
which was his retail and the

545
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,320
first restaurant combination out
here in Montclair.

546
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,000
And I did that.
And in the middle of that I'm

547
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,240
like, OK, now I'm done.
I need to do something else.

548
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,200
And at that point we, we shipped
a bunch of folks off to France

549
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,960
to do, to install and build Euro
Disney.

550
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,240
So they were, so I got when they
were looking to backfill those

551
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,400
positions here at Imagineering.
So I went in, fill out a

552
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,560
transfer application, drop it
off at Imagineering, didn't hear

553
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,600
anything, kept working at the
store.

554
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,400
I'm like, OK, well, now I didn't
hear anything.

555
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,360
So I went back again, included
some shots from the Disney

556
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,240
stores in my application this
time.

557
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,280
And then I was for then
commuting from home right to the

558
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,760
job site, wasn't going to go and
get our offices.

559
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,280
And I come in home late one
night and there's a, there's a

560
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,680
phone message from, from
Imagineering like, hey, we keep

561
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,480
leaving you messages at your
office, but you don't return our

562
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:01,800
call.
So if you don't want to work for

563
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,080
us, just let us know.
I called back and said, oh,

564
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,640
that's not the case at all.
I am coming from home to the job

565
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,360
site and my office is not
telling me that Imagineering is

566
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,480
calling like they were.
So I said from now on you call

567
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,360
me at home and I'll call you
back.

568
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,960
Yeah, so so.
Isn't it amazing what we did

569
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,880
before cell phones like?
Yeah, I got it.

570
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,880
Was what?
Yeah.

571
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,240
Yeah, our prehistoric world.
Yeah, I don't even listen to my

572
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,880
answering machine, right.
The Raiders are off in my home.

573
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,560
I still have the landline but.
I don't use it, Yeah.

574
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,840
I haven't had one in, I don't
know, 10-12 years.

575
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,240
I don't think I've had a
landline.

576
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,760
So now I only here when an
answering machine answers and

577
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,400
then it talks and nobody will
use me.

578
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,840
That's funny that you still even
have an answer.

579
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,840
I know.
It's just too much hassle to

580
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,480
take it out again, yeah.
Just go like this.

581
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,920
Yeah.
And out of the wall.

582
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,720
I keep waiting for the lottery
to call and tell me I've won the

583
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,000
lottery.
So yeah, that dream.

584
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,280
We could forward the number to
your cell phone, you know, and

585
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,680
still rip it out of the wall.
Yeah, I had to keep one for a

586
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,280
long time just because I had an
alarm system in my house that

587
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,160
had to have a landline connected
to it.

588
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,680
And I was, you know, too cheap,
lazy, whatever it was to change

589
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,280
it to a wireless, you know,
Internet based alarm system.

590
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,480
Yeah, which I finally did.
But yeah, that was the only

591
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,640
reason I kept one for probably
the last five years that I had

592
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,400
it.
Yeah, one day we'll just give it

593
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,720
up and but it's connected to all
the other stuff.

594
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,640
Right, I understand that.
I get it, yeah.

595
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,040
So one day.
So I was like, hey, you call me,

596
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,200
I'll call you.
So we worked it out and went

597
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,480
over, did an interview with
Andrew Randall, who was the

598
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,400
manager of the department at the
time, and walked away thinking,

599
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,320
oh, this is going to work out.
So I got a call.

600
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,160
I got an offer, then we turned
over the restaurant stored

601
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,520
operations on Friday night at
midnight and then that following

602
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,080
Monday I'm, I'm like, hey, you
owe me two weeks of comp time

603
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,720
from all this overtime.
That'll be my that'll be my my

604
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,120
message that I'm leaving like so
I gave him that two weeks notice

605
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,760
and then I started living
imagining, Oh, wow, don't read

606
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,800
the the next the net that
Monday.

607
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,280
That's amazing.
That's an impossible story,

608
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880
could never work out, but
somehow for me.

609
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,600
It did.
It fell right together.

610
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,320
It fell right together.
Yeah, I guess.

611
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,840
Here's a.
So when you got in, Yep, you

612
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,520
when you got into imagineering,
you were part of a a larger team

613
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,760
I assume.
Yes, yeah, there was, yeah.

614
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,760
Half the team was gone in
France.

615
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,960
So we so back, you know, as a
kid, those were the old men.

616
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,520
Now that I'm retired, I was the,
I became the old man.

617
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,200
Something again I did not plan
for.

618
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,560
So they were busy going back and
forth between Glendale and

619
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,360
France.
And then there was a group of us

620
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840
who had been hired while they
were out.

621
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,040
So we didn't really connect.
We didn't really talk much in

622
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,200
those for those first few years.
We'd see them more rarely, but

623
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,560
they were busy doing Paris.
And then I I got hired and then

624
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,200
went right down to Disneyland to
assist Paula Dinkle, who was the

625
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,200
lighting designer for
Disneyland.

626
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,760
Of course she.
Worked on Base Park for Epcot

627
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,200
and stuff, and then she went to
do the SQS well, which maintains

628
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,760
the show quality.
So I went right to Disneyland,

629
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,639
and for me that was a kid in the
candy store.

630
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:15,320
Disneyland was completely
different back then, right?

631
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,400
They just locked the front door
and everything was wide open all

632
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,480
night long.
So I spent the summer six months

633
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,360
or so just running through every
attraction, crawling everywhere

634
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,000
that I possibly could.
And then it was all fine.

635
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,360
Now there's lockout tag out and
it just, it just wouldn't be

636
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,360
possible today.
But then it was.

637
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,760
So I got to see everything crawl
on all those attractions, see

638
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,239
how they went together, how the
original designers did that

639
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,320
work, and just and.
You were doing that to just

640
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,639
understand or to.
Improve just because.

641
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:49,080
Yeah.
Because I could, right?

642
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,920
Yeah.
I'd ridden those rides all my

643
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,719
life and now I could be in the
attic at the Haunted Mansion and

644
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,360
like, what does this look like
when the work lights are on,

645
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,000
right?
And you know, you could, you can

646
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,480
be in pirates in in all those
scenes.

647
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,760
And so, so besides my day job,
which was working with Paula and

648
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,600
doing show quality checks, I'd
spend my nights just running

649
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,160
through the park.
And that's amazing.

650
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,400
Understanding.
Yes, it could.

651
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,960
Again, not completely not
possible in in these days, but

652
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,600
back in the 90s it was that it
was possible.

653
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,840
So work with her had a great,
that was crazy great learning.

654
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,640
She was a great mentor.
She's fantastic and still a

655
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,560
dear, dear, dear, dear friend.
Learned everything I could there

656
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,400
and then went back up to
Imagineering.

657
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,880
And then a designer, Pam Rank,
had just been assigned to do the

658
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,760
Splash Mountain for Walt Disney
World.

659
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,640
It was one of the two assistants
assigned to Pam to work on that.

660
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,040
So that was my first real
attraction drawing.

661
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Doing design was with pain.
Fun.

662
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,680
And she was fantastic.
Again, still a dear friend, but

663
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:05,320
a crazy great mentor, full of
such grace allowed us as

664
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,760
assistants to be responsible for
designing scenes of an

665
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,360
attraction.
And I said, Pam, I don't know

666
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,720
how you did that at that age.
I would never have given

667
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,320
anything up to somebody.
I wanted to own every piece of

668
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,840
every design.
That was my motto for 20 plus

669
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,880
years.
And then it's like, as I grew up

670
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,280
and grew older, I understood
that that mentoring was

671
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,880
important and it was great to
let kids have this, have some

672
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,560
work and guide them and watch
them do this.

673
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,800
So I'm curious of, of, you know,
I'm curious on the process

674
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:45,320
certainly then compared to now.
But overall, like when Disney is

675
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,720
designing a new attraction, is
it very collaborative right from

676
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,720
the beginning, like the designed
lighting design team is with the

677
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:57,040
attraction design team is with
the, OR do they design the

678
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,320
attraction and then go, OK, here
it is, it's completed, now you

679
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,760
figure out how to light it.
Right.

680
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,400
Well, you know, there there are
a couple of processes in that

681
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,200
typically we are brought on
board when the attraction is is

682
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,160
defined like there's a whole
blue sky effort.

683
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,480
Hey, you know, the prospect,
Hey, we want to build a land in

684
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,080
a park and we don't know what it
should be.

685
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,400
And then imagine, OK, well,
let's say it's, you know, we're

686
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,000
going to build the land based on
the cars franchise, right?

687
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,880
So we come on board in there and
that's already defined.

688
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,120
Typically the attraction is
defined.

689
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,200
Like we knew what a Splash
Mountain was.

690
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,840
It was, you know, it was bigger
and better because it was

691
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,680
Florida based on Disneyland.
But at that point, you're

692
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,120
brought on board when the
facility is being designed,

693
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,040
right.
And then what you are again,

694
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,040
something that theater doesn't
train you for is that you are in

695
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,360
on the ground floor to design
the facility.

696
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,440
And I harken it to in theater,
you show up and you're going to

697
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,480
light a show in a theater.
And some architect and theater

698
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,760
consultant designed a theater X
number of years ago and the

699
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,200
lights hang where the lights are
going to hang because someone

700
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,480
thought those were positions
that were important back in the

701
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,840
day.
And you inherit those.

702
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,960
And Imagineering, you are
designing the theater that one

703
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,000
day there'll be a show in and
you will be lighting that

704
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,160
lighting that show, which is
completely upside down.

705
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,640
Yeah, you know, from, from my
theatrical experiences.

706
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,560
So we're in on, you know, we, we
layout the catwalks, we do the

707
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,600
catwalk layouts, we work with
interiors for soffit details.

708
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,600
And we, we, we work for out all
the places that lights need to

709
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,760
be to be successful to light the
show.

710
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,400
Yeah.
So that's a process that that

711
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,000
again, I wasn't, I wasn't.
Familiar with them, does that

712
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,480
also include like, you know,
standard like commercial

713
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,440
lighting, you know, fluorescent
tubes, work lights, all that

714
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,120
kind of stuff so.
We light all the spaces that you

715
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,760
go as a guest.
So we light, you know, again,

716
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,920
attractions, restaurants, shops,
landscape.

717
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,560
What we know is area
development.

718
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,400
We don't do parking lots.
We don't do back a house, right?

719
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,320
I will light any place that you
can go.

720
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,120
You know I have a huge passion
for even lighting area

721
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,560
restrooms, right?
I argue that a lighting designer

722
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,800
who lights a restroom will do
better than an electrical

723
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,720
engineer designing a restroom,
right?

724
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,320
And it's a chance to do
lighting.

725
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,680
Yeah.
So anywhere you can go, we're

726
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,160
responsible for doing that work.
That's interesting.

727
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,880
Yeah, so we're we're in on the
ground floor figuring out where

728
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,440
catwalks are.
We know what's what the show is

729
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,200
going to be and then we get that
facility design and then once

730
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,160
that work is done, we then turn
back around and start doing the

731
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,120
lighting design that sits in
that facility.

732
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,240
Yeah, which is so much better
than them just handing you a

733
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:56,000
completed project and now figure
out where you can fit lights

734
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,000
into this thing.
Exactly right.

735
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,200
Yeah.
If you can't make the shot, then

736
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,400
it's my fault.
It's not.

737
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,000
So an architect, Yeah, thought,
oh, this, this could be a thing.

738
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Which would be impossible given
the complexity, especially

739
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,280
nowadays.
Like, you know, these things are

740
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,440
so wild now, these different
attractions, so I couldn't

741
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,320
imagine lighting them after
they're complete, No.

742
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,360
No, it would be much harder than
it is.

743
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,480
For sure.
Impossible.

744
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,120
Yeah, I'd be.
Cursing somebody ever been

745
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,920
myself the whole time so.
Yeah, yeah, that's funny.

746
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:35,200
So you know what?
Any early experiences that you

747
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,880
remember, like you know, when
you first started working under

748
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,160
Paula and you, you worked on
your first few exhibits or

749
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,240
whatever, like anything that
jumps out that you were like,

750
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,800
wow.
Like either a pinch me moment or

751
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,200
a oh oh oh shit moment.
I had I need had an oh shit

752
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:52,960
moment.
Yeah.

753
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,440
So so I'm working with Pam and
we're doing the we designed

754
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,040
this.
We do design Splash Mountain and

755
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,120
that is that is just starting to
come up in the field in Florida.

756
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,720
I hadn't yet been to Florida.
A designer had done a rehab for

757
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,040
the Imagination Pavilion in
Epcot.

758
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,520
Upstairs in that pyramid, there
was something called the

759
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,080
Imageworks.
That was the interactive play

760
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,840
area that that was opening day
with Epcot, which of course, was

761
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,280
groundbreaking.
There was no, no one had

762
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,880
understood what interactive
stuff was.

763
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,000
Yeah.
And the designer who done that

764
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,960
design did the design, and then
she left the company.

765
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,960
And I was then a task to go to
Florida and install that design.

766
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,080
I had no understanding of what
it was.

767
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,680
You're on a plane and you're
gonna go see what it is and

768
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:42,800
figure it out.
Wow.

769
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:49,400
So Ilan and the coordinators
like, hey Ken, we just spent

770
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,080
$10,000 air freighting a bunch
of mercury vapor humble black

771
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,160
lights from California to
Florida.

772
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,080
And we're not going to install
them like for eight months.

773
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,760
Why did they reship them
overnight?

774
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,800
And I'm like, well, I, it wasn't
my idea and I'm very sorry that

775
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,160
we did that.
Hopefully we'll do better.

776
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,200
So.
So that was my first experience

777
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:18,480
of like, just picking up what
was was a mess.

778
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,200
Yeah.
And making something out of it.

779
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,320
Yeah.
And for me, that really was a

780
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:31,280
linchpin in my Disney career
because I didn't know anybody in

781
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,200
Florida at the time.
So I showed up as a designer,

782
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,960
like, hey, I get this is a
problem.

783
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,120
It's I will own it and I'll make
it OK.

784
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,440
And we're going to figure it
out.

785
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,440
And all anybody wants to hear
when they're panicking is that

786
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,720
you understand, and you're going
to take responsibility and just

787
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,160
tell them it's going to be OK.
Yeah, I know it was going to be

788
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,280
OK.
Yeah, absolutely not.

789
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,240
But I work with an amazing group
of people out there.

790
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,200
And from that first, that first
assignment, they then begin to

791
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,640
call back to California and
request me to do to be on their

792
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,080
team as they're like, that's
cool.

793
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,080
Yeah, again, that means
something complete.

794
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:12,680
Yes.
They're like, we we want it to

795
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,440
be Ken.
And my manager's like Ken, Sure.

796
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,600
But but how and why?
They're like, we'll just we want

797
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,920
we want Ken.
So for the next 25 years, 20

798
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,080
plus years, all of my work was
out there at at Walt Disney

799
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,360
World and it all really came
from from just showing up and

800
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,600
being responsible and and
turning some turning someone

801
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,960
elses design.
Well I think, and I might be

802
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,320
wrong, but I think wasn't Disney
World a lot more active than

803
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,120
then Disneyland?
Like Disneyland had a lot of

804
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,920
older attractions, they didn't
have a lot of room to build new

805
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,000
ones and right, So Disney World
was going nuts.

806
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,280
Disney World was going nuts.
You know, it had been 10 years

807
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,480
since Epcot Open.
So people were sponsors were

808
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,480
renewing their their their
sponsorship, which meant there

809
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,760
were rehabs planned and there
was money to go and do

810
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,280
attractions and and do work.
Yeah.

811
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,640
So I slipped right into that.
And then did you know that was

812
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,200
that was the original test
track, right?

813
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,840
That was GM signed up again to
one of the new attractions.

814
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,920
So because they wanted me, that
was that was me.

815
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,280
So I, I got to tell you, you,
you have probably single

816
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:30,440
handedly cost me, you know, half
of my wealth because my son grew

817
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,960
up, that was his favorite ride.
And so myself or his mother

818
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,400
would have to take him on it
over and over and over again.

819
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,040
Like, you know, he'd walk out
and want to get back in line

820
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,720
again and he was just a car
junkie.

821
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:48,360
And now he's a race car driver
and has been since he was seven.

822
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,760
And, you know, so thank you very
much for that.

823
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,880
I.
Appreciate that a lot.

824
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,920
Pleasure.
Yeah, Yes, it was my kids

825
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,560
favorite attraction too.
Was it, you know, the original?

826
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,160
The original concept was you
were gonna learn all about how

827
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,360
cars went together and safety
and all the pieces that go into

828
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,560
cars.
And as you walk through the

829
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,560
queue space, there were
workstations that were set up in

830
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,200
all the displays.
And as, as members of the team,

831
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,520
we got to have our own
workstation.

832
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,600
So my kids grew up with their
baby pictures at what was to my

833
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,080
workstation so they could go
through the attraction and see

834
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,000
their see their pictures, baby
pictures.

835
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,200
So for for, so you know, for
five and six year olds, that's

836
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,960
game changing really themselves
and a Disney attraction.

837
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,440
Oh my God.
So that was great.

838
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,960
So, so they were of course very
sad when we went back in and did

839
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,200
the, the two point O version and
that's their and I, I did that

840
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,320
version as well, the three-point
O that's taking now that's all

841
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,040
being done on the floor.
So I look forward to seeing what

842
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,880
that was.
Well, wasn't that ride the

843
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,640
attraction?
Wasn't that the first sort of

844
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,320
exciting thing at Epcot?
Because Epcot was so like

845
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,400
educational and so hardcore,
like educational and stuff, and

846
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,480
then all of a sudden you had
this car thing that was going

847
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,200
real fast around the track and.
Yeah, yeah, it was a huge amount

848
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:12,040
of.
Fun that was.

849
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,000
Yeah, that was the first real
thrill ride.

850
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,520
That.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I

851
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,520
thought, yeah.
And then you got Sauron and all

852
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,560
the other stuff around it after
that.

853
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:21,680
Yeah.
Mission.

854
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,920
Space.
And all.

855
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,840
Yeah, yeah.
What's the one that makes you

856
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:27,840
the space one?
What's it called?

857
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,440
Mission space.
Mission space.

858
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mission space.

859
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,240
I remember there was such an
aura over it was like, oh, don't

860
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,400
go in there, you'll get sick and
all this stuff, right?

861
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,240
And I so I avoided it and then
finally I went in it and I'm

862
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:43,000
like, that's it.
Like I think you could put it on

863
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,640
a rough mode or a a mellow mode
or something.

864
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,600
So yeah, when we first opened,
it was 4 experiences.

865
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,680
They were all the same.
And you got the, the intense G

866
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,400
forces as you passed it off.
And then and then years later

867
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,680
they went in and created, I
think it's the green side and

868
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,040
the green team and orange team.
Yeah, and the green team, you

869
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,280
don't, you don't spin.
So yeah, you do some pitching,

870
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:06,800
some yacht, but you don't get
that.

871
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,680
Yeah, that's what it was, Yeah,
Yeah.

872
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,200
So yes, I, I experienced a lot
of G forces, yeah, getting that

873
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,040
stuff.
Oh, testing it and stuff, yeah.

874
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Yeah, that, yeah, that was good
fun.

875
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,640
That was great.
I could ride it about five or

876
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,360
six times.
Then I would have to get out

877
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,560
the.
Yeah, the Eric swap who was

878
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,480
programming the the motion base.
He could write it all.

879
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,240
He could write it all day.
I'm like Eric, I don't

880
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,560
understand how you can.
That's funny so.

881
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,680
Yeah.
So then so on that ride, for me,

882
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,040
it's it's all the visuals.
There's there's the blast off

883
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,200
from the from the launch
platform.

884
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,080
And for me, that's a rough
moment.

885
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,800
Yeah.
And so that that's a take a deep

886
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,720
breath and let the cold air on
your face.

887
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,200
Yeah, yeah.
And then as you go on through

888
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,160
the experience, there's the the
gravity assist where you're

889
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,640
where you're flying past the
surface of the moon.

890
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,960
And in the experience, that's
the same exact G forces from the

891
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:02,560
ride system.
But because the visuals are

892
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,360
different, I had a completely
different reaction.

893
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,600
Like I could, I could experience
the looking at the moon scroll

894
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,360
past at the maximum G's all day
long and didn't affect me at

895
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,040
all.
The interesting vertical tower

896
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,440
thing going up, my body's like,
Oh, this is you shouldn't be

897
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,040
doing this.
That's funny what you can trick

898
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,880
yourself into, right?
Yeah, your eyes see can

899
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,960
completely change what?
Really wild What?

900
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,840
Your body experience.
Yeah, yeah, well some of those

901
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,520
motion rides, they just got so
good.

902
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Like I all of them, like I love
every one of them.

903
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,840
The The Simpsons one I think is
at Universal, but that ones

904
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,400
crazy fun and all the ones that
you guys did over the years.

905
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,520
Star Wars was amazing and her
Star Tours.

906
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,440
Sorry, you know, I mean just
such good stuff.

907
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,600
I love those rides.
Yeah, it's great that to be with

908
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,560
a company that was that, you
know, cutting edge.

909
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,480
I remember when I was in college
when Star Two was open at

910
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,360
Disneyland and nobody had any
understanding of what that was

911
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,160
or like no one had seen a
simulator, No one knew what any

912
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,120
of that was.
Yeah.

913
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,040
So there were speculations that
you're on a roller coaster track

914
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,040
and like nobody had any idea and
to be to be on that cutting edge

915
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,920
and the mission space was the
same, the same experience.

916
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,480
Like no one ever created that
right?

917
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,640
System before yeah, well, and
then Sauron too.

918
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,360
Sauron was another one.
I mean, now, now you kind of go,

919
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,280
OK, yeah, it's, it's a little
tired by today's standards, but

920
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,400
but at the time it was like, Oh
my God, I can't believe what I'm

921
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,280
experiencing right now.
It's like.

922
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:31,560
You just.
Forget that the feet are

923
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,880
dangling in front of you, but
other than that, you know it's

924
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,520
wild.
Just you're a sweet spot, you

925
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,440
are completely Hang Gliding and
you don't have any other

926
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,400
external experience.
I mean you are in the sky and

927
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,920
that ride system is.
Spectacular.

928
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,960
Yeah, the was it called?
Not rock and roller coaster was,

929
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,760
the Aerosmith one was.
That rock and roller coaster.

930
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,640
Yeah, yeah.
So I was doing, I was with

931
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,480
Martin at the time and I was
doing some stuff with, with Van

932
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,080
Co.
I think they were still Van Co,

933
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:07,760
they weren't PRG yet.
And, and somehow I got invited

934
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,160
to the preview of it, like there
was a preview day for the

935
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,040
industry or whatever.
And I got invited to that and

936
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,400
went on at three or four times.
And I remember at the time, and

937
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,040
you could correct me if I'm
wrong, but I think it was the

938
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,960
first one that like took off
like that, that didn't go slowly

939
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,040
up a little crank thing.
And then, you know, it just like

940
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,200
shot you out of a cannon.
And nobody warned me about that.

941
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,960
So I was like in shock.
I think I probably swallowed my

942
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:40,600
chewing gum at that moment and
just such a cool ride at the

943
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,760
time.
Yeah, very unique, never

944
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,840
anything like it.
You know the that linear

945
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,400
induction launch nobody, nobody
had seen before experienced it

946
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:53,120
before when we built the
facility there, we weren't even

947
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,920
sure that that was going to be a
thing that was going to be

948
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,760
successful, right.
So in the original slab is a

949
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,000
giant pit in case there had to
be a giant flywheel to launch

950
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,640
you, you know, on a cable system
like other like other zero to,

951
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,280
you know, 60 plus it coasters
did.

952
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,040
Yeah.
So they, we, they head to their

953
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,360
bats like, oh, if this doesn't
work, we'll have infrastructure

954
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,920
in place to do what was Plan B.
Right.

955
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,880
But yes, when it's since you
screaming down that of down that

956
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,040
that tunnel and immediately
upside down.

957
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,080
Yeah, that was that was a a
joyful attraction to work.

958
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,680
On well, the whole attraction
was just cool, like I remembered

959
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,400
through the line.
It's like you got them in the

960
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,240
studio and Steven Tyler turns
and goes, oh, hey, what are you

961
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:35,440
doing here?
You know, nice to see you guys,

962
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,400
the whole design of it.
And then, of course, the

963
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,560
lighting was fantastic on the
ride itself, you know, just

964
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,880
really, really cool.
So, you know, I know this is way

965
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,520
off topic, but when Disney is
looking for a ride like that,

966
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,400
like I, I assume when you're
Disney, you don't go to like

967
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,240
Iappa and, and go, oh, yeah,
that one will do.

968
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:59,920
We'll buy three of those.
You know, you're fully designing

969
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:01,760
that.
We are fully designing.

970
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,120
Yeah.
We know we're, we are with our,

971
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:07,240
you know, selected vendor who's
going to deliver that ride

972
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:07,880
system.
Yeah.

973
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,000
But yeah, we start with the
story.

974
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:11,920
Yeah.
And then we design the ride

975
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,400
system.
That's cool.

976
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,960
Yeah, that's really cool.
That's why that attraction is so

977
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,520
successful, because the story is
clean and simple and fun.

978
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:22,640
The onboard audio is
spectacular.

979
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,240
Really good visuals go great
with the with the experience on

980
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:28,560
the ride.
Yeah, Yeah, that was that's a,

981
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,560
that's a great little package of
it.

982
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,760
Yeah.
Telling a great story and having

983
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,560
a ride that supports it.
What's that length of time, you

984
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,680
know, from somebody comes up
with the story to, you know,

985
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,560
we're ready to open the ride?
You know, any war between five

986
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,280
to seven years really tell you
is the depending on the

987
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,800
complexity, it's a long I.
Don't have the patience for

988
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,440
that.
I need it in one year.

989
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,120
Come on.
Yeah.

990
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,080
Yeah, I can't do I know we built
Disneyland in a year, but we we

991
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,440
can't I will tell you we can't
build a churro car.

992
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,160
Yeah, these days it's just all
too complex.

993
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,040
So yeah, it's that many years
from.

994
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,680
Hey, there should be we're gonna
build a land at California

995
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,080
Venture.
What's did it be based on?

996
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,960
Oh, maybe it could be the cars
franchise from that germ of an

997
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,600
idea to opening day, five, 5-6
years.

998
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,360
And.
And for us, wow, yeah, it's it's

999
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,720
the team works.
Maybe, you know, eight months to

1000
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:24,920
a year before the line designer
comes up, before the real show

1001
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,120
team gets involved to like get
into the weeds and start design

1002
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,440
and.
Start well, and that's a really

1003
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,440
risky sort of thing, right?
Because like, let's say it's

1004
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,000
Cars, for example, you're,
you're developing a ride,

1005
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:44,040
assuming that Cars is still
going to be a popular franchise

1006
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,560
at that point, right when when
the ride is done, otherwise you

1007
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,960
kind of come out and you're
kicking out a turd, you know?

1008
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,920
Like, because the film was 2006,
I want to say we went Florida

1009
00:53:56,240 --> 00:54:00,800
doing some early work on the
relight of the Spaceship Earth

1010
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:01,760
attraction.
Yeah.

1011
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,120
And my family was out there that
summer and we all went to the

1012
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,240
AMC there at Downtown Disney.
And we're watching the film for

1013
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:10,840
the first time.
And really it's the moment where

1014
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,720
as I, as I break up here, where
the town wakes up and the neon

1015
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,240
turns on and we're sitting in
this theater and my kids say,

1016
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:22,400
hey, dad, this would be a great
attraction in a Disney park.

1017
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,040
And I'm like, oh, that would be
fun.

1018
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,200
Fast forward five years later
and, you know, and then and now

1019
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,600
it's a thing.
But my kids instantly said, oh,

1020
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,160
this would be a thing.
And then to have been the

1021
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,280
designer to then deliver that is
is a great crazy art.

1022
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,400
Amazing.
So we're in Florida.

1023
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,600
Doing the thing, still working
in Florida, Florida doing weed,

1024
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,360
lighting, spaceship work, doing
all that work, doing Rocky

1025
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,160
roller coaster, mission space,
all this stuff.

1026
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,520
And then my daughter comes to me
and says, hey dad, I'm going to

1027
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,640
start high school.
And I think it'd be great if you

1028
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:00,960
were home more when I was in
high school and I had that exact

1029
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,800
same face.
I'm like, I have a daughter who

1030
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,320
wants dad to be.
Really, that doesn't happen.

1031
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,200
It doesn't happen again.
This my whole.

1032
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,880
I want you to meet all my
boyfriends.

1033
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,880
Really early on, I want you to
meet my friends and embarrass me

1034
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,520
in front of my friends.
Oh, yeah, whole high school.

1035
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,120
I'm like, what is what is what
is happening?

1036
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,040
So I go to my to my mansions.
Hey, my daughter would like me

1037
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:23,320
to be home.
He's like, well, you know, we're

1038
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,840
considering doing this cars land
thing at California Venture.

1039
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,880
You could do that.
I'm like, oh, that could be fun.

1040
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,360
So that's how I got assigned to
two cars.

1041
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,120
Land is that.
What a great dad.

1042
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,280
Yeah.
And then I was home through my

1043
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,880
daughter's high school, but that
got me through daughter and son

1044
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,600
high school experiences.
And then I got to be on the

1045
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,200
ground floor and create that for
us.

1046
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,120
A game changing the land.
Yeah.

1047
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:50,400
Disney Company.
Yeah.

1048
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,440
So have has that sense shifted
to where they they've gotten

1049
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,840
even a little braver where
they're saying, OK, we're coming

1050
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,400
out with this movie in two
years, let's start designing the

1051
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,360
attraction today and have it
launched, you know, within a

1052
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,480
year or two after if that movie
comes out.

1053
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:16,160
We drop those discussions do
take place, but we but it it

1054
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,240
just it so far it has it has yet
to line up for us as the

1055
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:22,400
attraction but.
Yeah, I can only imagine

1056
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,160
creative entertainment.
Those guys do a much they're

1057
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,520
they're much more nibble and you
know, their product, you know,

1058
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,600
they can get into a space and
create a show.

1059
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,520
So, so the stuff that really
ties to opening of a of movies,

1060
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,920
really our creative
entertainment teams, yeah, take

1061
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,080
that stuff and some character
meet and greets.

1062
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,520
It still takes us a long time.
And when we just opened the

1063
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,880
beating the Beast attraction in
Tokyo and, you know, in 2020, we

1064
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,840
finished it in 2020.
It opened it in 2021 because of

1065
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,120
the COVID.
But that, you know, that's

1066
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,600
that's decades before there was
a there was a wrong.

1067
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:57,920
Well, I think.
It's a long time.

1068
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,680
Disney's one of the few who has
that level of popularity of

1069
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,880
their old movies, you know, and,
and can come out with things

1070
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,040
like that 20 years down the road
or, or further, but not many

1071
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,600
companies could do that, you
know, like, I don't know that

1072
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,920
Paramount Pictures could grab a
20 year old movie and go create

1073
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,800
a theme park around it or
something, right.

1074
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:22,080
Might not work out, but what was
I gonna ask you?

1075
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:27,400
So it's an interesting timing
that whole early 90s thing

1076
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,720
because technology was starting
to shift towards color changing

1077
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:37,680
fixtures towards discharge lamps
versus halogen or or

1078
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,560
incandescent lamps.
And I know I did a bunch of

1079
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,560
projects at Disney and I
probably won't even mention some

1080
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,280
of them because some had issues,
you know, because we were

1081
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,160
talking about very new
technology.

1082
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,480
And, and I remember one in
particular where I think it was

1083
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,960
Epcot where I might have been
even lighting the ball.

1084
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:02,520
But it was something where I
remember we were getting in

1085
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,080
trouble from Disney because
every time there was a product

1086
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:09,800
failure, you had to send guys
out on row boats, you know, to

1087
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,440
fix them.
And it was, it came at a this

1088
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,880
crazy expense and stuff.
And so, you know, we had to fix

1089
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,680
the problem pretty quickly, you
know, because it was sort of a a

1090
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:26,640
convergence of need on on the
part of large customers,

1091
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,720
especially like Disney, like
cruise ships and stuff, who

1092
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:33,320
wanted fixtures that were a
little more environmentally

1093
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,440
protected, either IP rated or
somehow able to be used

1094
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,120
outdoors.
And manufacturers coming up with

1095
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:46,800
very, very early versions of
those types of technologies that

1096
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,280
weren't always the best.
You know, now, like even some of

1097
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,480
the least expensive product
lines out there have IP rated

1098
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,520
fixtures that are very good.
Back then, not so much, you

1099
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,320
know, And I worked with a couple
of companies who had those

1100
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,880
technologies that maybe weren't
always the most reliable.

1101
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,920
Yeah, we made the industry do
terrible things.

1102
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:10,240
You did back in.
Those.

1103
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,080
Early days.
Yes, I completely yes, we asked

1104
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:16,360
for crazy stuff because you
know, you want to use what's new

1105
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,720
and what's exciting and that's
that was necessarily again,

1106
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,680
designed to run 16 hours a day
in an attraction, right so.

1107
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,920
In Florida.
In Florida or the outside in the

1108
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,200
heat and the humidity, the bugs
and all the things.

1109
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,840
Oh, but I need to have this
thing that does this.

1110
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,960
And yeah.
And then yes.

1111
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,880
So I've seen every manner of
enclosure and all the all the

1112
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,760
terrible things that we asked
you guys to sign up for.

1113
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,200
And then when it goes terribly
wrong, like you say, you get the

1114
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,000
call like, oh, this terrible
idea was a terrible idea and you

1115
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,080
sold it to us.
Why'd you sell us this time?

1116
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,600
You sell us this even though we
told you that if you did it,

1117
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,560
yeah, we're going to be in a
world of trouble.

1118
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,400
The problem is, you know,
there's way too much incentive

1119
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,200
for the manufacturer because
number one, it's potentially a

1120
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,840
really large order.
Number two, you know, it's very

1121
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:05,280
high profile and you know like
you want to be a part of those

1122
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,640
projects, right, But.
At the same time, you're not

1123
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,000
getting some agreement from
Disney on the back end that says

1124
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,040
don't worry if this fails, it's
our fault because we're pushing

1125
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,280
the envelope here.
We're really pushing technology

1126
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,320
forward.
So yeah, I mean, I definitely

1127
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,880
was on several of those, you
know, too many to mention

1128
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,280
because, you know, it was
convenient.

1129
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,600
Like we could be in a car and up
to Disney within a few hours.

1130
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:36,800
And so I did a lot of stuff with
with Pleasure Island, lots of

1131
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:41,680
stuff with Epcot, lots of stuff
at the parks, and it was always

1132
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,640
a lot of fun.
But it was very stressful.

1133
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,560
Very stressful.
Yeah, at that point, for us

1134
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:50,080
anyways, because we were in
between being totally indoors

1135
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,280
and really wanting to be
outdoors but not yet having the

1136
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,000
technology to be outdoors.
Right.

1137
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,400
And that's what we do best, is
force people to do things that,

1138
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:02,760
you know, I would say a decade
before the world is ready for it

1139
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,400
to actually happen.
So now, as you say, everyone's

1140
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,080
got stuff that's designed to be.
Outside it's so much easier.

1141
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,760
It's so much easier.
But yeah, again, because we

1142
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,400
asked 20 years ago for you, for
you to make a thing and then

1143
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,240
that became what it was.
And then, yeah, now we've solved

1144
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:21,000
these problems, so.
And remarkably to one of today's

1145
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,360
sponsors of our podcast is
Elation.

1146
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,800
And Elation, you know, to their
credit, was one of the very

1147
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,120
first companies, probably the
very first company to go hard on

1148
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:36,080
IP rated exterior fixtures for,
you know, pretty much the whole

1149
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,200
line.
And so, you know, with that

1150
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,680
Proteus series and stuff like
they came out with really great

1151
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,400
fixtures that were all IP rated
and everybody else was like,

1152
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,240
that's stupid.
They're so much more heavy and

1153
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,840
they're more expensive and they
lose some light output and

1154
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,760
stuff, but they've done pretty
well with those fixtures you.

1155
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,160
Know, and those fixtures you
know want to be inside as well

1156
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,640
as they want to be outside
exactly being inside this is no

1157
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,040
cakewalk for for a light fixture
these days in this environment

1158
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,200
so yeah still.
You know we're working in Japan

1159
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,960
and those interior spaces are as
hot and humid you know you get a

1160
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,480
water ride in Tokyo in August
and you might as well be outside

1161
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,680
standing in the rain yeah.
Being inside the building, Yeah.

1162
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,600
So, so, yeah.
So thanks to the industry for

1163
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,520
for were, you know, suffering
along with us.

1164
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,040
And now we're at a place that
everybody now makes it makes

1165
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:29,920
something.
And that was unique to me at

1166
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,080
Imagineering is a theatrical
line designer.

1167
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,280
You specified the tools that
existed in the right in the

1168
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,360
marketplace.
No one you didn't, no one ever

1169
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:42,080
said, Oh, well, you could drive
industry change to solve your

1170
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,080
problems as a lot of you did.
And then I get to imagineering

1171
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,520
and then this is this is just
like every day, every day venues

1172
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,200
are coming through our what was
our our library was a big table

1173
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,240
and they're showing us, you
know, where we got the early,

1174
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,280
early days of color connection.
You know, guys with LE DS and 9

1175
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,120
Volt battery, this could maybe
be a light and it could maybe

1176
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,440
change color and you think this
is important and like that would

1177
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,120
be great.
Please go off and, and and make

1178
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,360
that yeah, you know, with, with
no thought, like, hey, you know,

1179
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,040
if I quit, could I come
alongside you and, you know, and

1180
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,680
reap this benefit together?
Really just driving change and

1181
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:23,000
intervention and weighing in on,
on fixtures for the industry.

1182
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,760
Right.
When we first went to LED,

1183
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,240
vendors would come and show us
architectural if there's oh,

1184
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,120
it's LED.
I'm like, OK, great.

1185
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,840
But what happens when the light
engine fails?

1186
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:33,880
Oh, well, that's gonna last
forever.

1187
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,800
I'm like, OK, but it's really
not.

1188
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,400
Yeah.
So when it fails, what happens?

1189
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,120
Oh, well, then you'll replace
the fixture.

1190
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:43,720
I'm like, well, say this is in a
plaster ceiling inside of a

1191
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,120
hotel space.
Yeah.

1192
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,480
No one wants to cut open a
plaster ceiling and replace the

1193
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,680
entire light fixture.
That's a great point, yeah.

1194
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,120
That most of them didn't think
about it.

1195
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,680
No one.
Did we're like no, we let us

1196
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:58,560
bring you the maintain the
ability side to this because in

1197
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,840
the early days there was there
was no thought.

1198
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,080
It was just chasing LED.
And that'll last for everything.

1199
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:05,720
Yeah.
And we're like, no, stuff has to

1200
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,480
be componentized and he has to
take it apart.

1201
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,480
And virus drivers are going to
fail and engines are going to

1202
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:12,080
fail.
And.

1203
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:12,680
Yeah.
And.

1204
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,800
And, you know, a recessed down,
like installed at Disneyland

1205
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:21,120
1955 with a porcelain socket is
still still there doing a thing

1206
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:24,440
right, 75 years later.
And so it was fun.

1207
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,600
It's like, Oh no, this people
have to maintain this stuff.

1208
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,360
So I I had a company that I
started very early on.

1209
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,400
We were one of the early players
in the LED space called LED

1210
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:40,720
Source, and we existed because
of exactly what you're talking

1211
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,400
about South, you know, LEDs over
here, opportunities over here.

1212
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,040
And we helped connect the dots.
So we'd get calls from a

1213
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:53,760
designer saying, you know, I
know I need to use LEDs on this

1214
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,400
project, but I'm not really sure
how can you help me?

1215
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,960
And then we would drive change
at the manufacturer's side to

1216
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,400
make sure that the products fit
the project better.

1217
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,080
And I know you mentioned
somewhere in your notes that you

1218
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:11,960
sent to us about using color
reaches on a project.

1219
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,200
And you know, color reach was
one of the ones that we spent an

1220
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,280
enormous amount of time working
with color kinetics to get it

1221
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:22,880
right because it wasn't right
initially.

1222
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,680
And you know, that became quite
a successful project.

1223
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:31,360
We did the the tower in Miami, I
think as I recall, we were the

1224
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:36,000
supplier on the when you went to
LED to light the ball at at

1225
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,640
Epcot.
I think we worked with Candela

1226
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,120
on that, if I remember
correctly.

1227
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:41,320
Sure.
So yeah.

1228
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,320
And so, but yeah, you're exactly
right.

1229
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,960
I mean, there were, you
basically had an architectural

1230
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,480
fixture that was being used in
very theatrical environments for

1231
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,080
the most part.
And then the theatrical guys

1232
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,440
were going, well, why can't I
just plug DMX into it?

1233
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:58,520
And the architectural guys were
like, Huh?

1234
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,760
Well.
You know, you want to plug what

1235
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:05,600
and so there was just a big
disconnect and it provided an

1236
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:07,120
opportunity.
It was a short lived

1237
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,720
opportunity.
The company we did very, very

1238
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,920
well for 10 years or something
and then shut it down.

1239
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:18,120
But but it provided a very
needed service between color

1240
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,600
kinetics who who didn't really
have a clue about most of the

1241
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,920
projects that their stuff was
going on and then and the

1242
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,280
customer, you know, so the
customers were all frustrated

1243
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,000
with color kinetics, but they
wanted to use the product.

1244
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,800
Well, again, it it it changed
the game for me.

1245
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,920
So I'm I'm designing the cars
land, you know, with that crazy,

1246
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,440
you know, backdrop of the
Cadillac mountain, you know, the

1247
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,960
the Fender mountain range, the
Cadillac mountain range from the

1248
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,320
film.
Yeah, yeah.

1249
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,000
And like it's, you know, I'm
like, what am I going to do?

1250
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,400
And then so colorless.
Oh, we have this we have this

1251
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,880
light fixture gonna make an LED
flood light that will shoot 300

1252
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,960
feet and it will change color
and I'm like well that's great

1253
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,640
where is it doesn't exist yet,
but we have a preliminary cut

1254
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:08,240
sheet.
I'm like okay, great.

1255
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,840
Well, then I'm gonna be all in
because you know, prior to that

1256
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,720
it would have been HID
floodlights all over and you'd

1257
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,720
be running around with gel
trying to pick a color for a

1258
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,560
light and then figure out how
you make the color filter fit on

1259
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,080
the light.
Luckily for me, before I had to

1260
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,840
do any of those large scale
projects, I was young enough to

1261
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:32,640
be riding that wave of color.
So I specified the Reach as the

1262
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,560
fixture that lights all of all
of that whole exterior rock work

1263
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,000
in that land, having never seen
it, right, I'm like, well, I'm

1264
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,440
either going to be a hero or I'm
going to be fired, but I'm going

1265
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,680
to roll the dice because there's
just no other.

1266
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,040
Way to do this there?
Is nothing, right?

1267
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,800
So I we're all in, they promise
it'll be a thing and it'll

1268
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,440
perform.
And I still recall climbing up

1269
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,840
on top of that radiator cap,
which from the guest perspective

1270
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,040
looks like a solid mount rock
work, you know, mountain, but

1271
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:04,280
the top of it is actually open.
And that's where 80% of my light

1272
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,320
comes from.
And I remember getting up there

1273
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,560
one night, turning on the reach
for the first time and shooting

1274
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:13,560
clear across the land and having
a giant, giant hotspot.

1275
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,040
I took a picture and sent it to
to my Co workers like, hey, I

1276
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:20,840
think I'm going to be OK.
But again, until I turned it on

1277
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,120
and shined across the land, I
didn't know what was what was

1278
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:25,600
coming.
But, well, yeah, you're, you're

1279
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,399
counting on the fact that these
little LED light sources are

1280
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:32,040
gonna produce light hundreds of
feet away or whatever.

1281
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:33,840
Yeah.
And yeah, and prior to that

1282
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,920
fixture, there was no example,
right.

1283
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,080
You could do, there were close
up floodlighting things to like

1284
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,520
1015 feet.
Yeah, something that promised to

1285
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,399
like, you know, 300 feet.
I like this is this is what I

1286
01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:46,880
need?
Well, when we did the Miami

1287
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:51,439
Tower, I think it was 2011,
maybe 2012 when we completed did

1288
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:55,760
it.
And at the time I don't think

1289
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,279
they'd done anything that big or
that tall.

1290
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:04,560
And so we did all these fly over
renderings and stuff where

1291
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:08,279
literally we had helicopters out
shooting the building and doing

1292
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,160
all this stuff.
And not only to convince the

1293
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,439
client, but to convince
ourselves that it could be at

1294
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,240
least as good as what we were
replacing, which was, you know,

1295
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,600
lights that were, you know, on
buildings a block away, in some

1296
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,040
cases lighting this tower.
And they were going out and

1297
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,000
changing gels on these, you
know, 2000 Watt fixtures and

1298
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,840
stuff.
And it was, it was not only was

1299
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:36,120
it incredible and much more
beautiful than even we, our

1300
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,359
renderings, like it blew away
our renderings.

1301
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:44,479
But it's now 12 years later and
I think they've had like maybe

1302
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,359
two fixture failures on this
entire tower.

1303
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,840
And, you know, we got rid of all
that.

1304
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,479
They were spending millions of
dollars in rent on building

1305
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,120
roofs around the building so
that they could light it.

1306
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,960
We brought it all on site.
It was all done from either

1307
01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:02,760
poles on the street or from
levels of the building.

1308
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,920
So yeah, I mean, it was a game
changer, that stuff.

1309
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,440
Yeah, yeah.
And again, until it showed up,

1310
01:10:08,440 --> 01:10:12,040
there was, we were all just like
rolling the dice, like we it's

1311
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:13,520
gonna be OK, right?
Yeah.

1312
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,480
And certainly for me, I'm like,
OK, I'm just this is we're going

1313
01:10:16,480 --> 01:10:18,520
to be what we do.
And then for you, but for the

1314
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,680
rest of the world trying to sell
clients and reputations and

1315
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,400
businesses who are on the line,
I'm like, all I thought was,

1316
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,400
well, the firearm if it doesn't
work and you know, how bad can

1317
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:28,280
that be?
Yeah.

1318
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,720
But then then it indeed turned
out to be the most spectacular.

1319
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,000
And our failure rate is
regarding with yours.

1320
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:37,480
There's still there's.
We've just got a couple of them

1321
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:40,600
that are yeah.
And yeah, it's, it's just, it's

1322
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:42,080
fantastic.
Well, I mean, that's my

1323
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,440
workforce.
Until you get into the real

1324
01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:47,880
junkie stuff like some of the
commercial stuff where people

1325
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,160
were buying off brand products
or whatever.

1326
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:53,640
But even some of the big brands
were having failures early on

1327
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,840
because, you know, usually with
LED, it's all about heat.

1328
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:01,280
And, and as people want things
to be smaller, heat dissipation

1329
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,560
becomes a bigger problem.
And, and you know, power

1330
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,560
supplies fail and things fail
because of, of the heat.

1331
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:10,920
You know, you're not taking care
of the fixture or you know, the

1332
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,800
LE DS themselves.
But you know, for the most part

1333
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:18,040
with good quality stuff like
ISOL, I don't even know how many

1334
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:23,000
color blasts, 10s of thousands
of color blasts probably and so

1335
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,320
few failures you could count
them on a hand or two, you know.

1336
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,200
So it just a really good run
with that stuff.

1337
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:31,760
Yeah, it's a really good run.
Yeah.

1338
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,440
Oh, but he no LE DS.
They're they're cool on the

1339
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,520
yeah, they're cool on the face.
But yeah, it's a thermonuclear

1340
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:40,920
reaction happening on the.
Backside of the yeah, one, they

1341
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,280
were so specific on what that,
you know, the temperature right

1342
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,720
at the, at the base of the LED
had to be that contact

1343
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,840
temperature.
And if you exceeded it, the LED

1344
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:54,160
failed very quickly or the power
supply or something failed very

1345
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,440
quickly.
If you stayed within those those

1346
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,200
very tight standards, you were
OK, you were OK.

1347
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:06,320
But yes, but it was, it was, you
know, that whole sort of mid to

1348
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:11,520
late 90s period was, was the
wild, Wild West of people trying

1349
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:17,640
to make theatrical fixtures work
outdoors with varying levels of

1350
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:20,320
success, but mostly failure.
Mostly failure.

1351
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,680
Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's
Iridian.

1352
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:26,160
Like, remember Iridian, I know
you had you had some Iridian

1353
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,400
experiences.
Yes, you certainly do.

1354
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:32,320
As a as a company, you yeah,
yeah, those, yeah, those babies

1355
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,200
were everywhere.
I remember a lot of those, the,

1356
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,040
you know, the little sort of
moving light thing.

1357
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,840
AR one, was it called?
I think it was called an AR1 or

1358
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,840
an AR5 or something like that I
had.

1359
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:50,040
I put the first bunch of those
in in rock and roller coaster.

1360
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:52,760
Yeah, yeah.
I'm like, oh, they're so cute.

1361
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,080
I'm like, oh, but they're made
of plastic.

1362
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,000
Yeah, yeah, they.
Plastic does not want to run 16

1363
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,840
hours a day, seven days a week,
no.

1364
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:01,880
They had a lot of problems with,
but it was.

1365
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,280
But it was a it was fabulous
right out-of-the-box.

1366
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,000
It was.
It was magic, Yeah.

1367
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,360
But then there was a learning
curve about yeah, what does that

1368
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:11,400
mean?
And.

1369
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,160
Well.
And their outdoor wash light had

1370
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,760
a lot of problems too, the AR500
I think it was called.

1371
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,240
But again, it's hard being an
innovator.

1372
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:22,040
It really is hard innovative.
It really is hard.

1373
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,600
So I'm not blaming them.
They were trying to do things

1374
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,200
that hadn't been done, again to
varying levels of success.

1375
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,360
And, and answering the
industry's call, right, again,

1376
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:35,600
we, we lighting giant icons, us
and every other line designer

1377
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,240
out there.
And I need something that it has

1378
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:39,480
to change color.
Yeah.

1379
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,080
And it wants to be in a small
package.

1380
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:44,040
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh, we'll just put

1381
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,080
this in a box and put it
outside.

1382
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,680
And then it sounded great.
And then water issues or water

1383
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:54,080
issues, right.
But again, we're everyone is 10

1384
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,200
years ahead of where they need
to be at any given time.

1385
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,680
And now, now we don't think
twice about LEDs and icons and

1386
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:02,960
washes.
And yeah.

1387
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:07,600
We have all those tools.
Yeah, I, I left Martin and, and

1388
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:11,960
went for a very brief stint at
high end and that was right when

1389
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:13,720
they had their architectural
fixture.

1390
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:17,520
And again, I forget what that
one was called, but similar

1391
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:19,200
issues.
You know, it was basically a

1392
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:24,400
studio color in a big outdoor
fixture, and studio color wasn't

1393
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,080
made to be in an outdoor shell,
you know, and.

1394
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:31,600
It sure was in Florida and I I
used those on the on the entry

1395
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,000
arts to rock and roller coaster
like, oh, we wanted to change

1396
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,680
color and be fun and dynamic and
and this was a late.

1397
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:38,560
This was a late ad.
I'm like, well, I have no

1398
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,200
control controls out there, but
I have power.

1399
01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:44,680
So I swapped that would that
were just going to be HID

1400
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,200
uplights and we put those in.
You could program them remotely

1401
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:50,480
and they could wake up and run a
show and do so.

1402
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,400
It was magic, right?
And it was everything you wanted

1403
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:55,680
until it wasn't.
Yeah, so.

1404
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:57,960
But like, like every new fixture
and every.

1405
01:14:57,960 --> 01:14:59,600
No, it was just that period of
time.

1406
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,720
I mean, it was an in between
time and then, you know, thank

1407
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,120
goodness in the early 2000s, LED
became a real thing and it was

1408
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:09,800
reliable enough to start using
on these projects.

1409
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:15,320
And big thanks to, to color
kinetics, at least early on.

1410
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,360
You know, shortly after that
they just kind of blocked

1411
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,080
everybody else from selling
product into the market.

1412
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:25,400
But then when that opened up,
obviously the industry changed

1413
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:30,400
to this day today.
So everything like you got in at

1414
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,720
the wrong time, Ken, Cuz today
everything is good.

1415
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:35,680
You could pick any brand off the
shelf.

1416
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,960
All the moving lights work for
an eternity practically.

1417
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,320
They never fail.
Never failed.

1418
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,040
All the IP rated stuff works
amazingly well.

1419
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,640
It never fails.
Yeah, it's a whole different

1420
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,000
time, yeah.
I was on a call with some

1421
01:15:49,480 --> 01:15:53,080
designers in Florida.
Hey, we think we need a exterior

1422
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,320
Lego to, like, put pattern on
the ground.

1423
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,600
And I'm like, oh, but do you
really need?

1424
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,360
Yeah.
Like, do you really need

1425
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,360
patterns on the ground outside?
Yeah, You know, for me, I'm

1426
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:08,240
like, oh, I, I as I, as I get
into mature, I'm like, oh, I see

1427
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:11,080
all the problems that that's
going to cause later on I could

1428
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:12,520
do.
Is that a what is that what the

1429
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,280
tool that I need outside?
Yeah, like does that do I need

1430
01:16:15,480 --> 01:16:18,480
meat goes outside and hiding in
trees like I have.

1431
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,840
So for me, I'm like, guys, you
do whatever you want, but I've

1432
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,320
been here 37 years and I've
managed to not ever have the

1433
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,920
need to do that.
I said yeah, there were plenty

1434
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:32,040
of wash lights and LEDs, you
know, spotlights to light the

1435
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:34,360
thing.
But but I just don't know that

1436
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:35,440
that's.
You know there's a lot of

1437
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:38,840
outdoor Lecos now though, right?
There are, and we're putting and

1438
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:41,880
we're our news.
Our replacements for Splash

1439
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:45,720
Mountain are all exteriorated
because they're sitting in in

1440
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:47,120
water attraction.
Yeah.

1441
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:49,200
So we're using them.
Yeah.

1442
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:51,360
In a water ride.
That's what you want back, you

1443
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,400
know.
When was the Altman 360?

1444
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,320
Q Those things kept themselves
dry because they were little

1445
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:58,280
ovens baking away.
Yeah, that's true.

1446
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,720
They go to LED and there's
they're not drying themselves

1447
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:03,080
out.
So so.

1448
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,480
We're using the exterior rated
fixtures in our What about?

1449
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,560
Rides you may have, you may have
retired too early, but what

1450
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,640
about some of the laser sourced
fixtures?

1451
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:18,360
Did you get to use any of that
stuff like the Clay Paki had or

1452
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:23,480
has the the Stilos?
And then Ayrton got really big

1453
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,000
into the laser stuff.
And Ayrton, I don't know if you

1454
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,320
remember their magic dot.
It's it's like a tiny little

1455
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:35,000
round automated light.
That was probably 10 years ago.

1456
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:39,000
It was a really big deal.
Well, Ayrton took that same

1457
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:46,000
fixture and they've put 100 Watt
laser, full color fixture, full

1458
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,080
color changing and everything
and even has gobos in it.

1459
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:53,120
But you know, it's 100 Watt
laser, it's bright as hell and

1460
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:55,840
it's outdoor rated.
I mean, I could just as soon as

1461
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:58,040
I saw that thing, I'm like, Oh
my God, Disney's going to have

1462
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:59,640
thousands of these.
But the problem is it is a

1463
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,200
laser.
So even though it's only 100

1464
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:07,120
Watt laser in the US, we, you
know, for whatever reason, we've

1465
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,320
decided the Food and Drug
Administration should be

1466
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:14,080
responsible for lasers.
And so they say no, you can't

1467
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,520
use that.
But everywhere else in the world

1468
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,360
it's okay.
So well.

1469
01:18:18,480 --> 01:18:21,160
You can't trust lying designers.
We'll tell you it'll be fine and

1470
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,160
then when it's not, then it's
too late.

1471
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,560
That's true, That's true.
But I'm sure you've used

1472
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,560
Sharpies.
Yeah, our entertainment folks.

1473
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,480
Yes.
Yeah, I mean, you know, Sharpies

1474
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:36,880
are more dangerous to eyes and
hands and everything else than

1475
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:38,520
100 Watt laser.
Sure.

1476
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,480
They find themselves on rooftops
doing fingers of light in the

1477
01:18:41,480 --> 01:18:44,040
sky for.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1478
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,360
Yeah, there's, yeah, they,
there's a, they are screaming

1479
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:49,040
bright fixtures.
Yeah, yeah.

1480
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,040
But the inside.
An attraction we know where

1481
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:55,640
stuff's running at 40%.
Yeah, we, I don't, we don't even

1482
01:18:55,640 --> 01:19:03,720
use really color changing Lito's
spotlights as a standard still

1483
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:08,200
we're we still at least I in
when I in the last stuff we've

1484
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:10,360
delivered.
If a fixture is just going to be

1485
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:14,120
on in in if it's night time,
which you know let's say that's

1486
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:18,640
R-80 at 40% with a pattern and
it's going to be on 16 hours a

1487
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:22,120
day, seven days a week forever.
That doesn't need to change

1488
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,080
color, right.
So we, so most of our, at least

1489
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:28,120
most of my installations and the
teams that I've been responsible

1490
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:33,320
for, we face white light line
beaming LED spotlights as really

1491
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,360
the workhorse.
And then if something needs to

1492
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:39,200
dynamically change as part of
the show, then we're all in and

1493
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:41,960
it's color changing and it it's
programmed and it does it thing.

1494
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:44,320
Interesting.
But most of our stuff, you know,

1495
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,640
pirates, we turn it on in the
morning and it just runs all day

1496
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:52,480
and there's no, you know, so at
least as the old man now, and

1497
01:19:52,480 --> 01:19:57,240
now I do, I, I see in three or
four years when, when

1498
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,840
construction schedules are
compressed and labor gets even

1499
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:05,160
more expensive, that it will one
day just be cheaper to be all in

1500
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:08,400
on the color changing as you can
just install it, focus it, never

1501
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,680
touch it again.
And you know, you can pick the

1502
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:13,600
color from your programmer and
you make it whatever you want to

1503
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:15,960
do.
I see that that will be where we

1504
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:20,520
end up currently today.
If it doesn't need to

1505
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,040
dynamically change, then for us
it doesn't.

1506
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:28,320
And and line dimming for us is.
It works great as retrofit in

1507
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:31,080
our attractions, right?
We got dimmers everywhere.

1508
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:38,280
I can swap out an old quartz
fixture for LED fixture and

1509
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:40,480
hanging in, plugging in and
moving on.

1510
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,400
So that's still, that's still
important and we're still

1511
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,720
driving industry to to create
those fixtures.

1512
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:50,600
Altman's got a great new version
of that that that we're that

1513
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:53,960
will spawn its way into our our
future attractions.

1514
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:55,520
Yeah, that's, that's cool.
Yeah.

1515
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,280
What about from a control
standpoint like you know, were

1516
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:03,920
you guys also sort of pushing
the the the technology forward

1517
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:07,240
on controls or did you just use
whatever was out there?

1518
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:11,840
Well, you know, we're we're
still giant fans of it.

1519
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,400
Pesky little DMX.
You know that for us, that's

1520
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:17,600
still our that's still our
workforce.

1521
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:19,840
Yeah.
You just can't bring that

1522
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,360
control system down.
You know, the architectural

1523
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:29,520
world, there's zero to 10 and
Dolly, and so that's finding its

1524
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:32,880
way.
Our projects in Europe use Dolly

1525
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:37,600
everywhere.
But really, truly, if it can be

1526
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:41,600
DMX, we like it to be D.
What about like Artnet and ACN

1527
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:44,280
and all that stuff?
No, no.

1528
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:49,400
No, we still hardwired DMX to
our, to our dimmer cabinets,

1529
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:52,520
from our control systems to our,
to our dimmer cabinets.

1530
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:56,000
That's hardline DMX because if
the network goes down, guess

1531
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:57,280
what, those lights are going to
stay.

1532
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:00,840
Now that equipment is all indeed
networked and we're monitoring

1533
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:03,760
it and talking to it and doing
all configuring dimmers

1534
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:07,480
remotely, You know, we're doing
all that work over the network.

1535
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:12,120
But the day-to-day turn on the
lights and on the show really,

1536
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:17,880
truly it's it's DMX truly to
fixtures really truly whenever

1537
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:18,880
possible.
Interesting.

1538
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:20,840
At least for our theatricals.
Yeah.

1539
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:26,560
So do you think I, you said I
think maybe 5-6 ten years from

1540
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,840
now or whatever, but will they
start building without at least

1541
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:34,280
without dimming?
Because obviously dimming in

1542
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:38,160
most jobs has gone away at this.
Point during starting to yeah,

1543
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,720
I'm curious about that because
for us, you know the the the

1544
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:49,360
form factor of a 96 you know
dimmer rack is still really one

1545
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:52,920
of the best ways to get that
kind of density, you know in in

1546
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:55,480
circuiting.
So even when our stuff is just

1547
01:22:55,480 --> 01:22:59,280
going to be on, you know, or
even, you know, have relay

1548
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:03,000
modules and just, you know,
provide power to stuff it for

1549
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:07,920
us, it's still those systems.
And you know, we, we use the

1550
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,320
wiring Bay that sits alongside
so ETC.

1551
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,920
Is is our is our give me a
control vendor.

1552
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:18,880
Well, that's not a secret there.
We have a 50 year relationship.

1553
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:24,720
Yeah.
But we now specify those, those

1554
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:28,320
racks with the wiring Bay that
sits next to it and which which

1555
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:31,680
for us allows the contractor to
be in and out of dimmer cabinets

1556
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,360
and not have to mess with dimmer
modules and that whole side of

1557
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,920
the cabin.
Yeah, so, so, so ease of

1558
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:40,240
installation and ease, even ease
of maintainability.

1559
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:45,160
I still, I still see it.
I'm sure one day there'll be

1560
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:49,840
something else, but but those
systems are so robust and when

1561
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:54,120
we have such history again and
the the density of circuiting

1562
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:58,200
that we can get from that and
and the the troubleshooting and

1563
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:02,760
everything that comes with smart
dimming and controls still for

1564
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:04,480
us is is important.
Yeah.

1565
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:07,280
So, yeah.
So maybe, you know, but back in

1566
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:11,400
the day when we know, when we
when cyber lights were thing and

1567
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:15,440
we wanted, you know, here at
home and when it wasn't 120

1568
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:17,200
volts, it was going to be a Rene
cab.

1569
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:20,920
Yeah, when we're working, you
know, in, out of the in other

1570
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:25,440
countries, it can be 220 and,
and be still be be be a dinner

1571
01:24:25,440 --> 01:24:29,680
cab.
So, so, yeah, I don't know.

1572
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,640
Well, I'm sure, I'm sure it will
happen, but I think that's going

1573
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,440
to be a slower roll out for
Disney than it is for other

1574
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:37,360
people.
You mentioned cyber lights.

1575
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:42,320
I remember doing, I think it was
while I was at high end that we

1576
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,720
sold a bunch of cyber lights to
Disney for the castle.

1577
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:49,480
You know, putting like just
gobos really slowly rotating on

1578
01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:53,840
the on the face of the castle.
It was really such a nice look.

1579
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,640
Beautiful.
I'm, yeah, I'm sure it's done

1580
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:00,800
differently on it.
You know, I did.

1581
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,560
We did the original feller magic
there at Walt Disney World,

1582
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,480
which was full of cyber lights
in that world out in Tokyo and

1583
01:25:07,480 --> 01:25:09,040
rolled out into Hong Kong.
Yeah.

1584
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:13,960
And then it became time to
replace those fixtures.

1585
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:22,080
And as you know, it's back.
The LED Cyberlite is back and

1586
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:25,640
I'm as in love with it now as I
was then.

1587
01:25:26,480 --> 01:25:30,200
Lucky for me, ETC came and said,
hey, what do you need?

1588
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:32,960
I'm like, I really need the
Cyberlite to come back.

1589
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:36,880
I have shows that specifically
rely on that fixture.

1590
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,120
Wow, they're they're.
So that's one years old.

1591
01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:44,760
That's my fault, 100% my fault.
I couldn't be happier because

1592
01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:48,080
again, I they were great
discussions.

1593
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,920
I'm like, I don't care what it
does.

1594
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,120
Here's what's important.
I go from the center of the

1595
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:55,560
mirror to the center of the
yoke.

1596
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:57,880
That relationship has to remain
the same.

1597
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:00,400
So I don't care what it looks
like I said, but these are going

1598
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,600
to replace existing cyber lights
doing a show and that

1599
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,520
relationship is important.
What happens out the back that

1600
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:10,280
don't care.
You know Gobo's I know what I

1601
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:14,840
need my show to be, but so have
at it all you want.

1602
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,800
Please, please, please.
That has to be that which has to

1603
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:22,440
be the same and, and ETC.
And high ends like that would

1604
01:26:22,440 --> 01:26:24,400
be, we would love to do that for
you.

1605
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:29,240
And so that's really cool.
Install the 1st 45 of them in

1606
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:32,120
Tokyo.
They're building the versions

1607
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:33,560
now.
They're gonna go for us in Hong

1608
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:37,520
Kong next spring.
So yeah, it's my fault.

1609
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:41,880
And I again, it was so funny
just for kids to see scanners

1610
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:45,960
who don't understand that you
can move light so fast around a

1611
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,960
space with no mass, right?
And that's what the magic of

1612
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:53,360
that, of that mirror is.
And for that show, that's what's

1613
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,040
happening.
You know, we're playing 450

1614
01:26:56,280 --> 01:27:00,280
light queues in a 8-9 minute
show that stuff.

1615
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:03,640
There's nothing else that is
that.

1616
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:09,000
Even in live shows, like I think
that it's all about the layers

1617
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:12,200
of light and the different looks
and the different like you don't

1618
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:15,240
want everything to move exactly
the same or to do the same

1619
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:18,080
thing.
And I still think that there's

1620
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:24,800
and I'm an old school, I'm old.
So I still think there's a use

1621
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:26,760
for mirrors.
I love mirrors.

1622
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,400
I like big mirror, bright cyber
light types of fixtures.

1623
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:32,480
I like.
I don't know if you ever saw

1624
01:27:32,480 --> 01:27:37,160
from remember Obies in
California, they had the the Z

1625
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:41,360
scan and the Telescan.
Yeah, you know, loved those

1626
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:43,800
fixtures for what they did,
right.

1627
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:46,800
Yeah.
But yeah, maybe, maybe there

1628
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,680
will be a comeback for me or.
Fixtures, who knows?

1629
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,000
I think so, yeah.
You know, they're like, oh, but

1630
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:53,480
it's not bright.
And I thought I'm like, well,

1631
01:27:53,480 --> 01:27:56,560
but it came but how it's bright
enough for me so.

1632
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,640
And I know that in disgust.
And he's like, well, how bright?

1633
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,960
I'm like, well, in the original
side we're like, you know, I was

1634
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:04,840
putting ND filters in because I
do.

1635
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:07,920
There was just way too much
light to even control with the

1636
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:08,400
douse.
Yeah.

1637
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:10,760
So here's what I need.
So.

1638
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:15,320
So if you want, I think it's
brighter, but it can dim.

1639
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:19,360
That's fine with me.
And so, so the spec for, for my

1640
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:21,440
needs and Disney needs are
perfect.

1641
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:24,960
I suspect there'll be a brighter
engine coming for it later for

1642
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:28,040
those rock'n'roll folks who need
who want all the lights.

1643
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:29,680
Possible.
You think so?

1644
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,200
A nice a nice suspect.
So you know, I know.

1645
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:35,040
And now that it's got some legs
and it's working its way out,

1646
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:38,560
I'm, I'm, yeah, excited so.
You know, from a fixture design

1647
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,000
standpoint, and I talked to
manufacturers about this all the

1648
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:45,680
time, They went a little crazy
on making everything brighter.

1649
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:47,840
Everything needs to be bigger,
brighter, brighter, brighter,

1650
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:51,400
brighter, you know, and to a
point where it's just like, you

1651
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:54,480
know, how about giving me
something that's like the

1652
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:58,560
equivalent of an old Mac 2000,
you know, in light output or a

1653
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,360
cyber light.
In light output, I don't need a

1654
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,440
bazillion lumens.
You know, maybe I need, you

1655
01:29:04,440 --> 01:29:09,760
know, 10,015 thousand lumens,
not 30 or 40,000 lumens.

1656
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:15,040
And so I love that manufacturers
like you may not have seen that

1657
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:18,840
Martin have a new fixture called
the Mac one, which sort of the

1658
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:22,560
the face of it looks a little
bit like a VL five, you know,

1659
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:26,760
with the the sort of fan look on
the color changer.

1660
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:30,720
Really cool.
It's small, it's very

1661
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,160
inexpensive, like 1500 bucks
kind of inexpensive.

1662
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,360
It's a little LED wash light,
moving wash light.

1663
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:42,640
And I love that manufacturers
are getting, they're making

1664
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:45,600
things smaller again to fit into
different spaces.

1665
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:49,320
They're realizing not everything
needs to be 30 or 40,000 lumens.

1666
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,680
And so I just think there's
choices.

1667
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:56,760
It's all about giving designers
lots of tools to choose from.

1668
01:29:57,360 --> 01:29:59,840
Yeah, I completely agree.
I mean, you know, the first

1669
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,600
thing anybody asks is doesn't do
you want it to be brighter?

1670
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:06,160
And for decades everyone always
said yes, make it brighter.

1671
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:10,080
Did did it need to be brighter?
You know, again, as a theatrical

1672
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:15,160
line designer, I never the use
for a 750 Watt quartz fixture I

1673
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:16,720
personally have never had.
Right.

1674
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:18,960
Yeah.
In in in my Disney World, it

1675
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:20,400
goes.
There was always plenty of

1676
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:20,760
light.
Yeah.

1677
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:23,480
And then we went to LED and
there was always plenty of

1678
01:30:23,480 --> 01:30:25,400
light.
And there was the 2nd generation

1679
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,800
and that was more light than I
could ever possibly.

1680
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,480
Yeah.
And now we're chasing again,

1681
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:33,480
just more I'm like, but who?
I know everyone tells you they

1682
01:30:33,480 --> 01:30:35,040
want to be brighter, but who
what?

1683
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:37,160
Please tell me the problem
you're trying to.

1684
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:38,240
Solve.
Yeah, that's the.

1685
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:39,880
Question to ban.
What problem are you?

1686
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:41,920
Please tell me the problem
you're trying to solve.

1687
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,320
Great.
And then and then let's solve

1688
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:46,120
that.
But again, it was just everyone

1689
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:48,520
just set off the topic.
Oh, I need to be brighter.

1690
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:52,280
Well, no, because then it's just
all too bright and now I think.

1691
01:30:52,440 --> 01:30:55,800
That was a bit of a manufacturer
arms race, you know, because

1692
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:59,160
ours are 21,000 lumens.
Ours are 23,000.

1693
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:04,440
Oh well, ours are 25,000.
I mean, it was an arms race.

1694
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,160
Yeah, and everyone's trying to
lock in that spec.

1695
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:10,240
I think it has to be 28.
Well, if you're not that, then

1696
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:14,360
you're not considered, right.
So I understand all of that, but

1697
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:19,400
as the industry, right as I read
profiles while I'm talking, I'm,

1698
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,320
I'm a darkness designer, I'm
starting to hear people say I'm

1699
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,880
like, yes, because the dark is
just as important as the light,

1700
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:26,880
right?
So people are headed back.

1701
01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:31,040
Light and shadow is more
important than the brights.

1702
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:35,000
But do you get involved at all
or did you get involved in the

1703
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,400
LED walls?
Like was that part of your view

1704
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,680
or somebody else?
Because that's the other issue

1705
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:45,200
is those things are getting so
friggin bright that now you've

1706
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:48,280
got light fixtures competing
against the LED screens, you

1707
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:50,440
know?
So light fixtures needed to get

1708
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:52,640
brighter to cut through that,
right?

1709
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:55,600
So let's just take like
everything back from 11:00 and

1710
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:57,600
then style it all back down.
Yeah, yeah.

1711
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:00,400
Because when the back wall is so
bright you can't see anybody

1712
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:03,480
standing in front of it, then
maybe the back wall is too

1713
01:32:03,480 --> 01:32:07,040
bright and the the answer isn't
putting put more light on on top

1714
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:07,960
of it.
Yeah.

1715
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:11,320
We always chase create people
who wanted us to light stuff

1716
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:16,200
outside during the day, Yeah.
We we just can't see.

1717
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:19,160
That, but it's the sun.
Oh, but couldn't it be bright?

1718
01:32:19,160 --> 01:32:22,920
I mean, it's the sun, yeah.
If you had any idea how many

1719
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:27,040
mock ups we had showing creative
teams that know if it's outside

1720
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:29,560
and the sun is up, that's the
brightest light you're going to

1721
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,480
ever have.
And if if your icon is in the

1722
01:32:32,480 --> 01:32:34,520
shadow, then it's going to be in
the shadow.

1723
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:37,680
I can't throw more light at it
from any place out in front and

1724
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:38,800
overcome what's going on.
Why?

1725
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:42,480
Why?
You're just not good enough.

1726
01:32:42,480 --> 01:32:44,040
We'll find another designer who
can.

1727
01:32:44,600 --> 01:32:47,920
I'm like, come back at night and
then it'll be super magical and

1728
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,600
no one will understand how it
got to be so beautiful at night

1729
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,520
and let the sun have the day and
we'll let the lion designers

1730
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:55,480
have the night.
I think it's a that's was always

1731
01:32:55,480 --> 01:32:59,400
a fair training.
Right, So what is this shaboom

1732
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:04,040
thing?
So, yeah, so if you recall in

1733
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:07,720
again, the moment we spoke of
her in the Cars land, in the

1734
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,680
Cars film, there's a moment
where they've repaired all the

1735
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,520
neon and the town's been
rebuilt.

1736
01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:16,880
And and we we show you and show
the other characters in the film

1737
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:20,120
and Shaboom plays in the film as
part of that.

1738
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,280
And the town wakes up and it's
magical.

1739
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,560
And when I watched it as lying
designer, I teared up back in

1740
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:29,840
2006.
And so here we are.

1741
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,400
I'm creating the cars land,
right?

1742
01:33:32,480 --> 01:33:36,520
I'm, I'm the the designer.
So I'm like, I think so I'm

1743
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:39,240
sitting in my office.
But back in the day, our

1744
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:42,480
workflow was such that one
designer could just sit behind

1745
01:33:42,480 --> 01:33:46,480
this computer in AutoCAD and
design that LAN.

1746
01:33:46,480 --> 01:33:49,720
So yeah.
So today that's not our workflow

1747
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:52,400
to that.
Now it's it's five or six people

1748
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:55,040
with our 3D in the Revit in the
previous.

1749
01:33:55,040 --> 01:33:58,560
But back in the old school days,
I was just sitting there in my

1750
01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:01,880
office doing doing the design.
And I'm like, you know what, we

1751
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:05,000
are gonna I this is an important
thing.

1752
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:07,640
When we get to Suns, we get to
sunset.

1753
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:11,840
This land should wake up in real
life like it does, like it does

1754
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:12,920
in the film.
Yeah.

1755
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:15,880
So.
So that's a an idea that I have.

1756
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:20,200
And I and I hold it to, I keep
that to my chest.

1757
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:22,520
I don't share with the creator
team, but that's a thing that

1758
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:23,560
I'm.
That I'm doing.

1759
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:25,680
Interesting.
Yeah, so.

1760
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:29,560
And for a bunch of reasons, you
know, it's good, it's gonna be

1761
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:32,200
spectacular.
But also in the world of

1762
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:36,560
circuiting, it's, it's far more
expensive to individually

1763
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:38,840
circuit a land.
So you can turn on a circuit at

1764
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:44,760
the time, you know, in a, in a
very specific way for a 32nd

1765
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:48,400
moment at night, right?
So I know that's, it's important

1766
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:50,840
to me and it will one day will
be important to the world.

1767
01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:54,440
So I hope I don't tell anybody
that that's what I've done

1768
01:34:54,440 --> 01:34:58,560
because I don't want them coming
back and saying as they do for

1769
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:00,440
all projects.
Well, we're over budget.

1770
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:03,800
Is there a way we can cut
something right and someone's

1771
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:06,320
oh, well, we could cut all of
that dimming and just turn on

1772
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,000
the land, right?
And then, then that moment

1773
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:09,440
doesn't exist.
So.

1774
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:16,000
So again, I keep that to myself.
I lay out the circuiting so I

1775
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:19,360
can create that moment.
Most importantly, on top of the

1776
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:22,480
flows, what for us is it is a
diner.

1777
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:26,360
Yeah, there's spark, the spark
plugs, and there's rings of neon

1778
01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:28,800
on the spark plugs.
And in the film it turns on a

1779
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:33,320
very specific way and the sparks
plugs fire in a very specific

1780
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:35,960
way.
We have recreated that in the

1781
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:37,040
land that.
Was awesome.

1782
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:43,000
Film, It was great.
So we're in construction and the

1783
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:47,240
creative leader comes, says,
hey, the contractor came to us

1784
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,640
and said that it's gonna be
really hard to individually

1785
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:56,160
circuit those rings of neon.
And, and, and this is this is a

1786
01:35:56,160 --> 01:36:00,160
true statement.
I called Pixar and Pixar said it

1787
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:04,160
wasn't important that the rings
of neon chase on like they do in

1788
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:05,400
the film.
And I'm.

1789
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:08,520
And this moment, I'm still
holding this this whole secret

1790
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:11,440
to myself.
And I'm like, well, OK, but we

1791
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:15,480
already paid the contractor to
wire the way it's circuited in

1792
01:36:15,480 --> 01:36:18,920
the electrical drawings.
And I know you said it's hard,

1793
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:20,880
but you didn't tell me it was
impossible.

1794
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:22,880
Yeah.
And and our job is to do the

1795
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:24,000
impossible.
So.

1796
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:26,720
So can we please have them
install it?

1797
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,080
I don't care how hard it is.
We already paid for it.

1798
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:32,200
Let's please do it the way that
we intended.

1799
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:34,360
And lucky for me, she's like,
you're right.

1800
01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:38,680
I'm Again, we never spoke of the
shaboom moment, but I was still

1801
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:41,760
trying to hold all those pieces
in place.

1802
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:43,680
I.
Have any idea how you did that

1803
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:46,720
in such a democratic it's not
environment?

1804
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:50,160
Right.
Again, if you had any idea how

1805
01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:53,200
many reviews I had where
leadership said, oh, Ken holds

1806
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:55,720
too much of his design too close
to his chest, I'm like, well,

1807
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,400
because at the end of the day,
you're going to want that design

1808
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:01,360
that's too close to my chest.
But in the process, you don't

1809
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:02,800
realize that that's what you're
going to.

1810
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:04,600
Yeah.
So that's going.

1811
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:06,360
That's going going forward at
this point.

1812
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:10,280
There's still the Shaboom song.
Isn't isn't part of isn't part

1813
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:12,080
of this process.
But the, the, the land is

1814
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:14,960
circuiting in a way that when we
get to dusk, it's going to turn

1815
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:18,440
on in order that it does like it
does in the film.

1816
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:20,200
Yeah.
Fast forward.

1817
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:24,560
Lassiter and his son are walking
the land one night and his son

1818
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:28,760
says, hey, dad, this would be
great if this land woke up like

1819
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:30,480
it does in the film with
Shaboom.

1820
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:34,920
So my creative leader comes,
says, hey, Lassiter and his son

1821
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:37,720
think it'd be a great idea.
I'm like, well, that's funny

1822
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:41,360
because it's already let
designed to do that.

1823
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:43,120
Yeah.
So I say it to her.

1824
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:47,080
I said, you can tell them that
it's their idea and we can

1825
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:49,440
achieve it.
Or you can tell them that we

1826
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:51,600
were already.
It was a surprise we had for

1827
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:53,440
them.
I said, I don't care who gets

1828
01:37:53,440 --> 01:37:55,960
the credit, but we're ready to
do that.

1829
01:37:56,160 --> 01:38:00,000
And then we work with the audio
team and got Shaboom as part of

1830
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,880
the soundtrack, so then it could
truly be the moment from the

1831
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:04,880
film.
So it really was a collaboration

1832
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:08,720
between Lassiter and his son and
and and the lighting designer

1833
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:10,600
that ultimately delivered what
that is.

1834
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:13,640
That is.
So every night at sunset, the

1835
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:19,000
background music on the land
fades down and we pay play

1836
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,640
Shaboom and the land wakes up
like it does in the film.

1837
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,600
It's it's a become a crazy viral
moment.

1838
01:38:26,760 --> 01:38:30,520
I've seen people get engaged
while it takes place.

1839
01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:34,640
You know it, there's a a mention
of it in the Disney in the

1840
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:36,280
guidebook for California
adventure.

1841
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:39,480
First time the lighting moment
ever was, you know, in a guide

1842
01:38:39,480 --> 01:38:41,880
map.
So it was, that's cool, a game

1843
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:46,040
changing moment, but it it was
just great to be a part of it

1844
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,680
and to and to have the thought
and be able to deliver that to

1845
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:51,800
the world.
You didn't get reprimanded by

1846
01:38:51,800 --> 01:38:54,560
somebody later saying can you
need to tell me about?

1847
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,880
These things well, again in in
performance evaluations, yes,

1848
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:03,120
but again, doesn't matter to me
because I know what again, I'm

1849
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:07,720
driving toward being the most
magical moment when the sun goes

1850
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:11,640
down to the can flow.
And so that, so that was a that

1851
01:39:11,640 --> 01:39:14,040
was a great move.
Speaking of which, what's what's

1852
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:16,360
that show called at night on the
lake?

1853
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:19,480
The OH.
Yes.

1854
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:23,600
Do you do that or did you do no?
That's a different entertainment

1855
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:27,200
did that OK, but Jason Badger,
who's now an Imagineering and

1856
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:31,080
part of our programming team, he
programmed that.

1857
01:39:31,080 --> 01:39:34,520
The original show, World of
Color, he did a lighting and

1858
01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:38,800
fountains and that whole show,
the version 1.0 was him.

1859
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:40,520
Wow and did all that
programming.

1860
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:43,560
It's a spectacular, really
spectacular menu and a great,

1861
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:44,640
great show.
Yeah, really.

1862
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:46,760
Cool show.
So we snag him away from

1863
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:48,200
entertainment.
So we used to have to ask the

1864
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:50,800
entertainment if we could borrow
Badger to come program our

1865
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:51,440
stuff.
Yeah.

1866
01:39:51,440 --> 01:39:53,680
And now they have to ask us if
he can come in.

1867
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:56,320
And that's funny.
Leave us to go do something for

1868
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:59,080
him, but.
I would assume you guys got into

1869
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:01,520
a lot of time coding right?
Like time coding.

1870
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:05,960
Shows yes and and that and that
is how the shaboo moment plays

1871
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:12,120
so, so when we go into dusk, we
turn on all those circuits are

1872
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:18,240
on in the programming, but over
the network we we turn, we we

1873
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:21,280
hold a higher priority, all that
stuff off.

1874
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:25,640
And what happens is we release
those off channels and so so the

1875
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:31,880
land turns itself on OK and all
that and all that is following

1876
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:35,000
sympty.
We did that for a so we could

1877
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,520
indeed program the sympty, which
for me is the most magical way

1878
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:40,760
to program lighting.
Yeah, in the whole wide world it

1879
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:43,160
is.
It also, there's also a time

1880
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:48,120
out, so there are occasionally
times when the audio Shaboom

1881
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:51,080
moment just doesn't just doesn't
play for random reasonings.

1882
01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:53,320
Yeah.
And so we didn't want the land

1883
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:56,080
not to turn on because we didn't
play Shaboom.

1884
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:59,000
So so the lights are on in the
background.

1885
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:02,160
We released those channels when
Shaboom plays, but if Shaboom

1886
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:05,240
doesn't play for 5 minutes
later, we release all those

1887
01:41:05,240 --> 01:41:07,400
channels.
The magic just all turns on.

1888
01:41:07,440 --> 01:41:09,360
Yeah.
So, so everything is on in the

1889
01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:13,320
background.
As for Cinti, yes, if it if it

1890
01:41:13,320 --> 01:41:17,720
can have Cinti as a line
designer, I really that's yeah,

1891
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,960
yeah.
As a theater person, when you're

1892
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:25,080
used to like writing a queue,
telling the stage manager, you

1893
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:27,400
know, when when to call that
queue and then your border

1894
01:41:27,400 --> 01:41:30,880
operator presses the go button
like you, you know, you don't

1895
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:32,800
think anything about what that
lag time is.

1896
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,800
But then when you can and have
your lighting program to a 30th

1897
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:39,960
of a second, like, like that's
granularity that you could never

1898
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:41,080
imagine.
Yeah.

1899
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:46,320
And when you can have it, to me,
it's it's it's it's simply

1900
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:48,440
magic.
Because at that moment, then a

1901
01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:52,160
queue is either absolutely
playing at the exact right

1902
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:53,720
moment, right?
Or it's not.

1903
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,200
Yeah.
And I argue that that when we're

1904
01:41:56,200 --> 01:41:59,880
programming those things, I feel
as I, as I can feel the

1905
01:41:59,880 --> 01:42:02,360
difference between frames when a
queue plays right.

1906
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:06,440
Because again, it's either laser
right or it's just a little bit

1907
01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:09,280
right, which is, again, as a
theater person, you're just

1908
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:11,920
lucky that the stage manager
called the queue and somebody

1909
01:42:11,920 --> 01:42:15,560
hit the go.
So I I have a an add on question

1910
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:19,880
which is probably really stupid
but so looking at rock and

1911
01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:24,880
roller coaster as an example, is
that something where the

1912
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:28,200
lighting starts when the ride
starts?

1913
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:31,960
Or are there some kind of
physical triggers along the ride

1914
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:36,280
that are triggering queues?
Inside the ride building we are,

1915
01:42:36,280 --> 01:42:39,720
we, we are taking inputs from
the, the ride system.

1916
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:44,280
So we know, so the ride system
knows where vehicles are at any

1917
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,280
time.
So we will get a trigger from

1918
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:49,520
the ride system and then we will
take our queuing off of that.

1919
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:53,040
So it's, it's either, you know,
we're either delaying depending

1920
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:54,800
on where on where that trigger
is.

1921
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:58,640
I see.
So if the trigger is 4 seconds

1922
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:01,000
earlier than I need, I need the
queue to play, then I'll see

1923
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:03,720
that trigger and then I'll just
hold for four seconds and then

1924
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:06,000
I'll I'll play that key.
And So what is?

1925
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:07,360
What is that trigger?
What's?

1926
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,840
What's?
Those are it's it's the ride

1927
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:15,600
system it's it's it's sometimes
it's it's beams of the vehicle

1928
01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:17,840
brakes as as gross the roller
closer.

1929
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:20,720
Sometimes there are physical.
And then the ride system is

1930
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:22,120
communicating with.
Lighting how?

1931
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:25,640
Yeah, yeah, Exactly how, though?
What's, what's that serially to

1932
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:27,560
us?
We're talking back and forth.

1933
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:29,160
I see.
Yeah, interesting.

1934
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:32,520
So, and, and then that ride
system is always the monitoring

1935
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:36,120
where vehicles are at all times.
So, so we, we just listen to

1936
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:41,800
that or sometimes the light the
lighting team has our own set of

1937
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:45,280
triggers and then we we manage
those.

1938
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:49,280
But we first try to simply
listen to the ride system

1939
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:52,480
because that already exists and
that and that's, that's

1940
01:43:52,480 --> 01:43:54,320
accurate.
And it's one less system for us

1941
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:55,560
to maintain, right?
Yeah.

1942
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:58,520
So if the ride knows what's
going on, then we typically just

1943
01:43:58,520 --> 01:43:59,880
listen to that.
Yeah.

1944
01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:06,680
So what has your design process
been going through your career

1945
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:09,280
like?
When you start a project, what

1946
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:13,880
is that process?
So when I start, I sit with the

1947
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:18,200
team and try to, and work to
understand what the show is

1948
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:20,920
going to be and what the needs
of the show.

1949
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:25,520
All I, for my system, I don't
ask a lot of questions.

1950
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:29,760
I, I get a lot of grief from my
peers and, and, and this will

1951
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:31,400
follow me.
This will be on my tombstone.

1952
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,440
I say, I want to know if it's
daytime or nighttime, if we're

1953
01:44:35,440 --> 01:44:38,320
inside or outside.
And those are the questions that

1954
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:41,040
that I have at the highest
level.

1955
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:43,440
And that's all I really need to
know.

1956
01:44:43,440 --> 01:44:48,280
And this is again, this has been
my case from when I was a

1957
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:50,440
student.
Like this is what this is all I

1958
01:44:50,440 --> 01:44:54,960
need to know because I argue I'm
the lighting designer and the

1959
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:58,560
light lighting is my art.
And I want to bring my art to

1960
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:03,560
you and you and, and your
attraction or to your show.

1961
01:45:04,440 --> 01:45:08,080
So, so, so I asked the, you
know, the highest, highest level

1962
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:11,120
questions.
And then I sit back and take in

1963
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:13,640
the show and chat with the
creative team about, you know,

1964
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:17,400
what it is again, you know, if
you're riding a splash mouth and

1965
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:19,720
there are scenes that you're
inside and you're outside and

1966
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:22,000
scenes that are day and night.
And that really, for an

1967
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:26,160
attraction is really all I need
because I don't want you telling

1968
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:30,160
me, Oh, I think it's blue or
it's purple or it's magenta like

1969
01:45:30,280 --> 01:45:32,840
I want, I want that to be.
That's my.

1970
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:34,240
Really great, yeah.
Yeah.

1971
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:35,920
So it's.
Just kind of creating the

1972
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:39,280
bumpers, you know that.
Just keep it myself.

1973
01:45:39,480 --> 01:45:40,920
Keeping you in the lane from
going off.

1974
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,840
The rail, Yeah.
And then let me be the one to

1975
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:47,400
to, to bring my vision to your
attraction.

1976
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:49,600
That's now I really cool when
I'm there.

1977
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:52,480
I, I have those conversations,
but I don't have this

1978
01:45:52,480 --> 01:45:55,680
conversation until I understand
what I think the attraction.

1979
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:58,120
Yeah, to be.
And there'll be times like, you

1980
01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:00,080
know, I think it wants to be
blue and they think it wants to

1981
01:46:00,080 --> 01:46:01,480
be red.
Well, if that's the case, then

1982
01:46:01,480 --> 01:46:04,800
we'll have these discussions and
then we'll all, you know, we'll

1983
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:07,040
work together and figure out
what it wants to be.

1984
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:10,440
And ultimately the creative team
buys off what it is that we

1985
01:46:10,440 --> 01:46:11,240
leave.
Yeah.

1986
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:16,240
But I But I really like to be
the person that owns that art.

1987
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:17,200
I like that.
Yeah.

1988
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:25,080
The process is so hard that if
you're not fighting for your art

1989
01:46:25,120 --> 01:46:28,320
and your vision for what a thing
looks like when it's completed,

1990
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:32,040
then it's way too easy to be
knocked off course.

1991
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:36,320
Yeah, I say that to a lot of
designers. 1/3 of the time

1992
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:40,560
you'll be picking up somebody
else's design after it's already

1993
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:43,520
been, you know, engineered or
put on paper, right?

1994
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:46,000
Like that's what drawings are
done, is that we're building the

1995
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:48,200
thing.
And for some reason you're going

1996
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:51,240
to be the line designer who has
to go take those tools and, and,

1997
01:46:51,320 --> 01:46:55,960
and make a show.
And, and that process is hard

1998
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:59,280
and it's expensive and people
don't build things the way

1999
01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:01,320
they're, they're supposed to on
drawings, right?

2000
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,320
So there's a bunch of chains
that has to take place, and

2001
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:09,000
unless you're driving to see
your vision at the very end,

2002
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:15,040
it's really hard to fight
against those changes.

2003
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:20,000
Yeah, an example, early on when
I was working with Pam on Splash

2004
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:24,000
Mountain, we were doing a shop
and lights couldn't go where

2005
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:26,480
they wanna go.
OK, well, we just, we won't

2006
01:47:26,480 --> 01:47:28,680
install them there, Right.
And then she came out there and

2007
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:30,160
said OK, And that wasn't the
answer.

2008
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:32,800
The answer was to solve the
problem because those lights had

2009
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:34,200
a reason to be there.
Yeah.

2010
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:37,320
A lesson that I've learned and
had followed through my whole

2011
01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:40,800
career.
So, so I tell everybody, when

2012
01:47:40,800 --> 01:47:43,880
you pick up somebody else's
design, if, if it's hard, you

2013
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:46,880
need to like, just hunker down
and figure out what somebody

2014
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:48,960
wanted that to be.
Yeah, because it's just too

2015
01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:51,840
weird to say, OK, if it's hard,
I have no skin in the game, It's

2016
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:53,720
not my art.
We'll just throw it out.

2017
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:55,960
Right.
And then a year later, somebody

2018
01:47:55,960 --> 01:47:59,240
wants to know why that light,
that figure isn't lit correctly,

2019
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:00,800
you know?
Well, because a year ago,

2020
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:03,360
someone said it was hard and I
didn't know what that light did.

2021
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,360
So I said just don't install it.
Well, now those tools aren't

2022
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:08,920
there.
I love that approach.

2023
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:12,560
I mean, it's, it's not
dissimilar to how I look at

2024
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:16,120
business because I've been on
all the different rungs of the

2025
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:18,520
ladder.
I've been a CEO for the last 25

2026
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:25,280
or so years and I enjoy being
sort of not the top of the food

2027
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:29,280
chain, being a boss, but I like
being the penultimate decision.

2028
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:32,840
I like being the guy who at the
end of the day has to live or

2029
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:36,160
die by the decision that I'm
about to make.

2030
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:38,880
And it sounds like you're the
same with your designs.

2031
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:42,800
Like it you're not saying I'm an
egomaniac, only I know how to do

2032
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:44,840
this.
I know better than everyone.

2033
01:48:45,040 --> 01:48:49,680
It's just that you want to
really own it and make it yours,

2034
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:53,440
and you might collaborate along
the way to get that done, but at

2035
01:48:53,440 --> 01:48:55,560
the end of the day, you're gonna
make the decisions.

2036
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:58,440
And you know, it's similar to me
with business.

2037
01:48:58,440 --> 01:49:01,120
I'm not saying I know everything
or I know more than my team.

2038
01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:06,280
Do I really rely on my team to
help support my decisions?

2039
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:08,680
But it's my decisions.
Right.

2040
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:10,800
And, and I want that to be the
case too.

2041
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:15,600
Like, yeah, it's so hard, right,
to find the time in the

2042
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:18,240
construction process and they do
the test and adjust and do the

2043
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:20,760
program.
Unless you're fighting for what

2044
01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:24,720
your ultimate vision is for
something, it's just too easy to

2045
01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:27,240
to give up or, or, or give stuff
away.

2046
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:29,400
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, the

2047
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:32,000
whole team weighs in on it,
right?

2048
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,480
Executives, you know, Eiger will
ride in the tracks and everybody

2049
01:49:35,480 --> 01:49:36,800
gets to weigh in on what it
looks like.

2050
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:41,360
But I, I want to be the one to
show you what I think it wants

2051
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:42,520
to look like.
Yeah.

2052
01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:46,000
I have creative teams that, that
that want that keeps saying we

2053
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:48,640
want to have a work session.
I'm like, no, no, no, nothing,

2054
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:52,480
Have a work session.
Let me let me deliver what I

2055
01:49:52,480 --> 01:49:54,160
think the scene should look
like.

2056
01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:56,040
And then we can review and
comment.

2057
01:49:56,280 --> 01:49:59,120
Yeah, I'm a much better review
and comment than work sessions.

2058
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:02,840
I don't want somebody else
weighing in, you know, on what,

2059
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:05,560
what something should be.
Yeah, I get the feeling you're

2060
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:07,240
not a guy that goes well, what
do you think?

2061
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:08,520
What do you think?
What do you think?

2062
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:10,720
What do you think?
And then you make the average

2063
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:12,960
decision.
See, I don't.

2064
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:16,120
And I tell every young designer,
the last thing you want to do is

2065
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:19,200
turn to somebody and ask them
what they think your art should

2066
01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:21,480
look like.
Of course as soon as you ask the

2067
01:50:21,480 --> 01:50:24,480
question and they tell you, oh I
think it needs it wants to be

2068
01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:28,680
180° from what you want it to
be, you then can't unhear that.

2069
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:31,920
Yeah.
And and then when you're when

2070
01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:35,240
they said it wants to be X and
you know it wants to be Y, then

2071
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:38,000
the whole struggle is to get
them over to what you think Y

2072
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:38,640
wants.
To be.

2073
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:40,880
Yeah, yeah.
It's much easier, at least for

2074
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:43,680
me, to show them what I think it
wants to be.

2075
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:45,240
Yeah.
And most of the time that is

2076
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:48,920
successful and they'll weigh in.
Oh, this too bright or little

2077
01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:52,320
stuff, but not fundamental.
What should the art we deliver

2078
01:50:52,320 --> 01:50:54,640
in this attraction look like
and.

2079
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:57,480
And so for me, that has been my
whole life.

2080
01:50:57,480 --> 01:51:02,320
And again, the creative folks
just want to know that you have

2081
01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:05,520
a vision and you have passion
and that you're there fighting

2082
01:51:05,520 --> 01:51:09,320
for their their product to be as
good as it can possibly be.

2083
01:51:09,480 --> 01:51:10,120
That's.
The.

2084
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:11,960
That's the goal, right?
That's.

2085
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:13,760
What you're there to do, Yeah.
Right.

2086
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:15,360
So.
And I don't want you to have to

2087
01:51:15,360 --> 01:51:18,600
worry about how we get there or
how many lives there are or

2088
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:20,560
where they're gonna be.
Like, that's my job.

2089
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:22,680
Yeah.
I want you just to see it and

2090
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:26,440
know that well, I'm driving to
be beautiful on your behalf.

2091
01:51:26,520 --> 01:51:28,920
And trust me, it's gonna, it's
gonna be OK.

2092
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:32,880
Well, the fact that you could
keep that shaboom moment, you

2093
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:37,600
know, away from everyone tells
me that, you know, collaboration

2094
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:41,240
light.
Yes, and again, it's I'm told

2095
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:43,040
it's a character flaw of my
whole career.

2096
01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:47,560
But again, the reason that that
the the stuff I deliver is as

2097
01:51:47,560 --> 01:51:51,120
beautiful as it is, is because
I'm I'm the one who's.

2098
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:53,520
You take ownership.
Who's taking the complete

2099
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:54,480
ownership?
Yeah.

2100
01:51:55,040 --> 01:52:00,400
Another crazy silly sidebar.
So in the cars land, there's in

2101
01:52:00,400 --> 01:52:04,080
the there's flows, which is the
restaurant space.

2102
01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:07,080
You come into A to a big first
thing you do is come into a big

2103
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,920
Rotunda and there is BG.
There's 45 minutes of background

2104
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:13,720
music that plays in that
restaurant.

2105
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:18,280
And in that I've lined that
Rotunda with, with LED cold

2106
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:24,560
lights and Badger has, has spent
months programming 45 minutes

2107
01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:30,240
worth of background music to
send the on these, on these

2108
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:32,680
strip lights.
So we're, we're in early

2109
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:36,200
construction and I see that,
that the, that we've added a

2110
01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:39,760
soffit that's in the way of one
of my coves because they needed

2111
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:42,440
to add speeds.
So that soffit is in the way to

2112
01:52:42,440 --> 01:52:46,640
do what I, what I need.
I needed to do, I go to the team

2113
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:51,720
and say, hey, I need to add 60
Cove lights in this Cove because

2114
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:54,440
the, the lights had to move
because there's a soffit in the

2115
01:52:54,440 --> 01:52:56,040
way.
So now I need to buy more

2116
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:59,400
lights.
They say no, I'm like, OK, but I

2117
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:01,560
think it's really important.
They're like, that's great.

2118
01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:04,160
You think so?
No, Yeah.

2119
01:53:04,160 --> 01:53:08,120
So I tell Badger, when you
program this space, assume that

2120
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:09,680
these psych fixtures are going
to be there.

2121
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:13,240
So please in put these in in
your configuration and program

2122
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:15,400
these figures as part of the
show because I'm going to keep

2123
01:53:15,400 --> 01:53:18,080
working as hard as I can over
the next few months to get these

2124
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:20,320
fixtures.
Yeah, I try again.

2125
01:53:20,480 --> 01:53:25,480
I tell the team, Hey, I have
test and adjust money like it'll

2126
01:53:25,480 --> 01:53:27,880
be transparent.
You like, no, no, no, no.

2127
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:33,040
So again, because I'm because
I'm tenacious, I keep asking the

2128
01:53:33,040 --> 01:53:34,120
case.
You know, we don't need it.

2129
01:53:34,280 --> 01:53:38,760
So finally I'm laying in bed,
turn to my wife and say, honey,

2130
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:42,400
I'm going to do something that's
either going to get me fired or

2131
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:45,200
I'll be a hero.
But I I can't not do it.

2132
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:47,080
She's like, well, this is who
you are.

2133
01:53:47,240 --> 01:53:50,280
So if your career is on the line
and you lose some sleep over.

2134
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:52,960
So I go off.
I buy these fixtures on my own.

2135
01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:57,840
I get in there with one night
again, I made sure that that the

2136
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,520
infrastructure was there, the
power supplies were there.

2137
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:03,280
I just had to plug them in line
and fill the soffit with these

2138
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:06,600
fixtures, address them, and they
jumped in because Badgerhead

2139
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:08,040
program leaves us part of the
ship.

2140
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:10,720
Yeah.
Fast forward to a walkthrough

2141
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:14,480
with the with the creative team
who told me multiple times I

2142
01:54:14,480 --> 01:54:17,160
can't have lights there.
We're walking with Lassiter.

2143
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,800
Lassiter walks in.
It's the first time he'd ever

2144
01:54:19,800 --> 01:54:23,160
seen lighting program was empty.
And he's a kid in the candy

2145
01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:24,920
store.
You can't believe that the

2146
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:28,720
lighting is moving like it does
with the music.

2147
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:31,880
And the creative team looks up
and points at the place where

2148
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:34,720
there were lights.
And I said, yeah, I know they're

2149
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:36,920
there, but it was important that
they be there.

2150
01:54:37,200 --> 01:54:38,920
And they.
They both turn to me and say,

2151
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:42,400
you were right.
Yeah, I was right.

2152
01:54:42,560 --> 01:54:45,960
But I had to be willing to,
like, go against everything you

2153
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:49,520
told me and get myself fired
because this is this is what's

2154
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:50,960
important to the show.
Yeah.

2155
01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:52,880
And now you're in it, and you
see it.

2156
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:56,520
And Lassiter is losing his mind
over how magical, which is just

2157
01:54:56,520 --> 01:54:58,320
an entrance to a restaurant can
be.

2158
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:02,000
And so again.
So let me e-mail you over the

2159
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:04,200
bill for the stuff that I had to
buy, okay?

2160
01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:07,520
Yeah.
So as I was at my retirement

2161
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:11,960
party, the show manager said,
and remember that time when I'm

2162
01:55:11,960 --> 01:55:14,360
like, remember that time when I
bought the fixtures and saw them

2163
01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:16,400
myself?
And she said, yeah, She said,

2164
01:55:16,880 --> 01:55:19,320
well, good job.
I'm like, yeah, you're welcome.

2165
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:20,920
Yeah.
So did they pay you back?

2166
01:55:21,480 --> 01:55:23,040
I didn't know I.
Oh my God.

2167
01:55:23,880 --> 01:55:27,440
It was, it was my test in the IT
was project money that I had.

2168
01:55:27,440 --> 01:55:29,040
It wasn't my personal money.
Oh, I see.

2169
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:33,560
But yeah, again, so, so in our
process, right, we estimate cost

2170
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:36,080
of fixtures, cost of controls
and then we have our tests in

2171
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:38,080
the jet supply.
So that's color and slush funds

2172
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:40,440
and things.
Slush funds, yeah, to buy stuff

2173
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:43,600
like 60 Cove lights and stolen
or another light on the ladder,

2174
01:55:43,640 --> 01:55:45,360
you know, stuff that's that's
commitment.

2175
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:47,240
Though wow, I love that I know I
like.

2176
01:55:47,240 --> 01:55:49,560
I know, but I'm.
Willing to put it all on the

2177
01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:51,360
line here because I'm right and
you're wrong.

2178
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:53,920
I got it.
I just got to do it so.

2179
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:55,880
And that's and that's and that's
how.

2180
01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:59,000
That's wild.
Has it did anything change like

2181
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:03,400
in 37 years in your design
process from a standpoint of the

2182
01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:05,400
tools that you use as a
designer?

2183
01:56:05,400 --> 01:56:08,640
Like you know, I know you said
you started in AutoCAD and you

2184
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:13,360
went to 3D whatever and but like
did you ever use like physical

2185
01:56:13,360 --> 01:56:16,720
tools like models and things
like that or, or was it always

2186
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:18,440
software?
Did it evolve?

2187
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:22,680
Yeah, so, so it has evolved.
So when we first first started

2188
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:26,040
back in the day, we were
drawing, you know, on vellum

2189
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:29,480
with like with light plots.
We had templates and all the

2190
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:32,080
things, the symbols were a
little bit different, but our

2191
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:34,720
workflow was completely
theatrical, unlike the

2192
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:38,400
architectural world where the
shape of a symbol defines what a

2193
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:42,400
fixture is right in the spec.
Well, for us, we have a generic

2194
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:44,400
down light and like theatrical
paperwork.

2195
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:47,480
Every fixture in all of our
facilities, whether it's a

2196
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:50,680
restroom or shop or an
attraction has a fixture number

2197
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:54,280
and that ties back to a fixture
schedule, which then ties back

2198
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:56,720
to a spec and all the
information just like it does in

2199
01:56:56,720 --> 01:56:59,680
the theatre because theatre
people who started our process.

2200
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:03,400
So we started hand drawing and
then we went from there to

2201
01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:06,280
AutoCAD.
And that was a really, really

2202
01:57:06,280 --> 01:57:09,240
hard transition because the
tools were new.

2203
01:57:09,240 --> 01:57:12,560
But the difference there was, is
that we knew what we were

2204
01:57:12,560 --> 01:57:14,880
delivering, right?
The deliverable was the same.

2205
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:18,960
The output from AutoCAD back in,
you know, in the 90s look was a

2206
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:21,400
light plot.
It looked just like a light plot

2207
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:25,720
that I would have drawn by hand.
So, so the, the hard part there

2208
01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:28,840
was the tools were changing, but
the output was the same.

2209
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:31,480
I see.
And then that has now

2210
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:37,760
transitioned in the last 10
years to a BIM Revit 3D model

2211
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:42,480
experience, which is it's time
for this old man to retire.

2212
01:57:44,160 --> 01:57:47,120
Now our deliverable still to the
maintenance teams and to the

2213
01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:51,720
project is a traditional flat 2D
drawing, right?

2214
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:55,600
We have people who are in the
model and our stuff is in the 3D

2215
01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:58,200
model.
But as the line designer, that

2216
01:57:58,200 --> 01:58:01,960
wasn't my, that's not my job.
I I have enough work to do as a

2217
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:05,160
line designer that in my
workflow I can stay out of the

2218
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:08,920
mall, and I've hired people to
work in the model and represent

2219
01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:13,400
our fixtures in the model.
Does that equal a better

2220
01:58:13,400 --> 01:58:16,400
attraction?
I argue no, but that's the

2221
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,600
workflow that architecture has
gone.

2222
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:21,920
Yeah, yeah.
So, so that's, so for me, that

2223
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:24,120
was that's that's a lot more
labor.

2224
01:58:24,360 --> 01:58:27,520
That doesn't equal more show for
you as a guest.

2225
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:29,600
Yeah.
So for me, I don't see it.

2226
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:31,320
But that's what the world has
done.

2227
01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:36,400
We've always done models and the
models are very, very important.

2228
01:58:36,400 --> 01:58:40,720
So we do 16th inch scale models
of attractions and land for

2229
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:44,080
mixing and then that becomes 1/4
inch model and it becomes a

2230
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:46,960
little more defined.
And then at the end of the day

2231
01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:49,280
it's 1/2 inch model of
everything.

2232
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:51,920
And we still do build half inch
models.

2233
01:58:51,920 --> 01:58:55,960
So all that rock work that you
see for cars land, there's a

2234
01:58:55,960 --> 01:58:58,840
giant half inch scale model of
all that car.

2235
01:58:58,840 --> 01:59:01,240
Wow.
So that gets carved and then

2236
01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:04,360
that gets digitized and then
that goes into the process and

2237
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:07,640
becomes chips and then becomes
scratch code and becomes block

2238
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:09,880
work and that workflow.
And then where do they go?

2239
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:12,120
Yeah.
Then they go into a giant

2240
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:15,200
warehouse like we still have all
of our models.

2241
01:59:15,200 --> 01:59:17,600
We we have.
And we Can you imagine what that

2242
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:19,680
stuff is?
Worth I think actually the art

2243
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:23,040
of the covenant is like right
next door is my vision of what

2244
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:27,840
our models.
So I'm in the half inch model

2245
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:29,560
and I'm standing at the half
inch model.

2246
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:34,680
So I will often sit with my
ground plan, my catwalk layout

2247
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:37,040
that is on my drawing.
And then I will sit at that half

2248
01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:40,800
inch model and say, well, here
and then see on that model where

2249
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:44,560
a light should be to light
somebody and then sketch it on

2250
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:47,040
that drawing and then go back
and put it in AutoCAD.

2251
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:49,280
So I work in all of those
models.

2252
01:59:49,880 --> 01:59:52,960
It's an important design tool
because you can then physically

2253
01:59:52,960 --> 01:59:57,360
see angle and positions that you
can't see, right?

2254
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:03,240
And even in the 3D World, my
face is the model is a lie.

2255
02:00:03,680 --> 02:00:06,920
And you can see anything you
want in a model and you can see.

2256
02:00:07,640 --> 02:00:10,920
Any view you want in a model
that's not necessarily the view

2257
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,520
that a right season yeah yeah
right.

2258
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:17,720
So I don't care that if you ride
the ride backwards, you can see

2259
02:00:17,720 --> 02:00:20,480
lights on the catwalks cuz you
shouldn't ride the ride

2260
02:00:20,480 --> 02:00:24,240
backwards.
But in the 3D model, Mike, you

2261
02:00:24,240 --> 02:00:27,680
can look backwards and then
comment, I'm like, no, let's all

2262
02:00:27,680 --> 02:00:29,960
just, that's right.
The vehicle, the direction it

2263
02:00:29,960 --> 02:00:30,720
goes.
Yeah.

2264
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:34,880
So, so I'm a huge, huge fan of
the model and I and our model

2265
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:39,400
shop people are spectacular.
I still argue that the real,

2266
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:43,080
real Disney magic in our
attractions comes when the

2267
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:47,320
creative team talks to the model
makers and the model makers sit

2268
02:00:47,320 --> 02:00:51,360
and they make that.
I can't imagine the complexity

2269
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:53,720
and the time involved in making
those models.

2270
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:58,760
Oh it's spectacular yeah detail
all like literally if to see the

2271
02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:02,080
half inch model of Raider
Springs racers ride is to be

2272
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:05,720
staring at the ride like wow
everything that is in that

2273
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:08,920
building that is awesome was
handmade and is in there before

2274
02:01:08,920 --> 02:01:12,320
that level two yeah because.
It's one thing to make it after

2275
02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:15,160
the ride, but making it before
the ride exists is pretty

2276
02:01:15,160 --> 02:01:17,160
incredible.
And then like even just

2277
02:01:17,160 --> 02:01:20,680
rendering sometimes blow my mind
when I look at renderings and I

2278
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:23,960
see the real project and you can
hardly tell, like a picture of

2279
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:27,160
the project versus the rendering
look almost identical.

2280
02:01:27,240 --> 02:01:28,800
Yeah, that's when you know you
got it right.

2281
02:01:29,040 --> 02:01:32,640
It's great.
So in my process, so I sit and I

2282
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:35,920
talk to the team and I ponder
what the show should be, and

2283
02:01:35,920 --> 02:01:38,560
then I typically just sit down
and just draft.

2284
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:41,440
So for.
The Booting the Beast attraction

2285
02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:45,520
in Tokyo.
I sat at my friends table in

2286
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:50,000
Palm Springs over a weekend and
drafted that entire attraction

2287
02:01:50,320 --> 02:01:53,240
over a weekend because I had
given it all the thought and all

2288
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:55,360
the discussion.
Now it's just put the tools in

2289
02:01:55,360 --> 02:02:00,240
place to realize what your
vision is when it's all done.

2290
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:02,240
Yeah.
And so I'm all I count.

2291
02:02:02,360 --> 02:02:05,840
I tell everybody, please always
be driving to what you think the

2292
02:02:05,840 --> 02:02:08,080
finished thing looks like in
your head.

2293
02:02:08,320 --> 02:02:10,880
And if, if that's the course
that you're on, then you'll be

2294
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:14,520
successful and you'll be able to
defend your design decisions cuz

2295
02:02:14,520 --> 02:02:18,800
you're working toward a finished
picture, not just throwing tools

2296
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:21,800
on a plot to figure out one day
when you turn it on what

2297
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:23,480
something's going to point at.
Right.

2298
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:28,320
Every every light has a purpose.
It sounds so obvious and it

2299
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:30,640
sounds so common sense, you
know?

2300
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:33,440
But it's just not.
Right, like it's.

2301
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:37,360
Yeah, wow, that is incredible.
What are what are like a couple

2302
02:02:37,360 --> 02:02:41,400
of challenges that are
exclusively Disney?

2303
02:02:41,520 --> 02:02:46,440
Like challenges to designing a
Disney project versus something

2304
02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:49,400
else?
The the biggest challenge is, is

2305
02:02:49,400 --> 02:02:54,520
that nobody's supposed to see a
light fixture.

2306
02:02:55,440 --> 02:03:00,120
That is a quintessential yeah.
That is that is the driving core

2307
02:03:00,120 --> 02:03:04,760
of of us as lying designers is
that I don't want you to see a

2308
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:08,560
light fixture when you're
experiencing our our anything,

2309
02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:14,600
our area development are sort of
pre uplights, which I've created

2310
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:16,160
teams that would prefer not to
see.

2311
02:03:16,280 --> 02:03:18,440
Yeah, I don't want you to be
able to see a light.

2312
02:03:18,880 --> 02:03:21,440
And so that's that's the
fundamental difference between

2313
02:03:21,440 --> 02:03:24,200
US and really everybody else.
So when you're lighting all of

2314
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:28,720
that rock work for cars land and
the goal is you can't see a

2315
02:03:28,720 --> 02:03:30,640
light fixture when you're in the
land.

2316
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:32,440
It just wants to magically be
lit.

2317
02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:36,400
That's a that's a big challenge.
That's a huge challenge, yeah.

2318
02:03:36,640 --> 02:03:39,560
Yeah, other folks will just
throw lights up on poles out in

2319
02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:42,280
their development and whack at
it, which is a fine way to do

2320
02:03:42,280 --> 02:03:44,080
it, right?
It depends on what you're going

2321
02:03:44,080 --> 02:03:45,880
for.
If you're going for what the

2322
02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:49,120
thing looks like just stepping
back and looking at it, then

2323
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:52,880
stuff on poles is fine.
But if you if if you want to be

2324
02:03:52,880 --> 02:03:56,800
immersed in the land and be able
to look around the land and not

2325
02:03:56,800 --> 02:03:59,400
see light fixtures and things in
your face.

2326
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:01,400
You don't want it to wreck the
fantasy right?

2327
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:04,280
Like because you're, you're
living through this experience

2328
02:04:04,280 --> 02:04:07,000
and when you start seeing the
things that are creating the

2329
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:08,600
experience, it changes
everything.

2330
02:04:08,600 --> 02:04:13,320
You know, it's, it's, but it's
so funny because I and all the

2331
02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:16,640
idiots just like me in the
industry, that's all we're doing

2332
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:18,880
when we're in a Disney
attraction, right, Is we're

2333
02:04:18,880 --> 02:04:21,400
trying to figure out a, how it
works.

2334
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:25,040
You know, just like probably a
magician going to a magic act,

2335
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:26,480
right?
You're trying to figure out the

2336
02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:28,880
trick, right?
And so we're, we're trying to

2337
02:04:29,080 --> 02:04:31,760
look at how everything works,
how it got put together.

2338
02:04:31,760 --> 02:04:35,440
But certainly what are the light
sources, right?

2339
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:37,920
And they're always really well
hidden.

2340
02:04:38,080 --> 02:04:41,720
I, I didn't know that that was.
So is it like an unspoken rule

2341
02:04:41,720 --> 02:04:45,280
or it's a real rule?
Well, it's a non yeah, I

2342
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:48,200
everybody I share with, I share
that that's that's the goal and

2343
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:51,040
and in the organization that it
that is the rule.

2344
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:55,360
Yeah, yeah, that is the rule.
And, and, and even in the rare

2345
02:04:55,360 --> 02:04:58,920
instance where you can see
something or you have to see

2346
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:03,120
something, our creative teams
also are, are in on that secret

2347
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:06,800
and, and are looking out to make
sure we don't, you don't see

2348
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:07,760
stuff.
Yeah.

2349
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:11,600
So, so again, so when I'm riding
a ride, whether I'm assisting

2350
02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:15,440
somebody, I'm always, always,
always looking to looking left

2351
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:18,520
and right and up and down, but
facing face, experiencing the

2352
02:05:18,520 --> 02:05:22,280
show in the right direction, but
making sure that I'm not seeing

2353
02:05:22,280 --> 02:05:26,000
flare off of a lens or a light
fixture that that I don't need

2354
02:05:26,000 --> 02:05:28,760
to see.
Yeah, we did that a lot in this

2355
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:32,160
last work in Tokyo.
Lindsay Leader, who was the

2356
02:05:32,160 --> 02:05:33,880
designer for the Frozen
attraction.

2357
02:05:33,880 --> 02:05:36,880
And it is game changing and
spectacular.

2358
02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:41,560
My my role as her assistant, as
the executive on the project was

2359
02:05:41,560 --> 02:05:45,440
to make sure that I hid all the
lights that for her.

2360
02:05:45,680 --> 02:05:47,840
And so while she was busy
worrying about what the

2361
02:05:47,840 --> 02:05:50,480
composition was, I was the one
sitting in the back of the boat

2362
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:53,640
looking and like, oh, I see a
light and I'd take my Crescent

2363
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:57,080
wrench and run up on that
catwalk and try to find a new

2364
02:05:57,080 --> 02:06:01,320
place to put it in.
Rehung some scenes five and six

2365
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,840
times.
I'm sure LED made that a whole

2366
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:09,400
lot easier, yeah, you could get
fixtures a lot closer to things

2367
02:06:09,400 --> 02:06:13,600
and hide them in better places
cuz heat wasn't such an issue

2368
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:16,440
and stuff like that, yeah.
Yeah, but now we're chasing.

2369
02:06:18,040 --> 02:06:20,520
We need condition spaces on
catwalks.

2370
02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:22,640
What's there?
A thing that we didn't worry

2371
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:23,760
about before?
Yeah.

2372
02:06:23,760 --> 02:06:26,800
Now a fixture is a computer
sitting.

2373
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:30,360
We try to use fanless fixtures
whenever possible, but it's

2374
02:06:30,360 --> 02:06:33,280
still a computer sitting
somewhere cooking away on a

2375
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:37,600
catwalk that needs condition
spaces that sports fixtures

2376
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:38,760
never did.
Yeah.

2377
02:06:38,760 --> 02:06:42,680
So now we're busy chasing
requirements to treat our

2378
02:06:42,880 --> 02:06:45,480
catwalks like they're like
they're full of video

2379
02:06:45,480 --> 02:06:47,320
projectors.
So we're we're now having

2380
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:50,480
temperature and humidity
requirements for back of house

2381
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:53,960
spaces moving forward that we
never had before because their

2382
02:06:54,040 --> 02:06:56,640
heat was never interesting.
Yeah, interesting.

2383
02:06:57,360 --> 02:07:00,680
Are there are there any
initiatives for like energy

2384
02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:04,040
savings and stuff like that?
Like is that part of the design

2385
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:08,200
process or the consideration?
Well, you know, as we were going

2386
02:07:08,200 --> 02:07:12,960
from incandescent and HID
sources to LED, it was never a

2387
02:07:12,960 --> 02:07:18,720
mandate for us to get there.
But we are all, we are 100% LED

2388
02:07:19,000 --> 02:07:20,960
probably for the last 10 years.
Or so.

2389
02:07:21,360 --> 02:07:23,040
Yeah, that.
Made and that's a requirement

2390
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:24,880
that we really put upon
ourselves.

2391
02:07:24,880 --> 02:07:28,120
The parks of course, would love
that because it's less to

2392
02:07:28,120 --> 02:07:30,680
maintain and less to operate for
all of those reasons.

2393
02:07:31,600 --> 02:07:36,160
But up until we finally had all
the tools in the LED world to

2394
02:07:36,360 --> 02:07:40,920
accomplish what we were working
on, we still had We had mixed

2395
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:46,440
sources like cars land, those
were LEDs like the exterior, but

2396
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:49,200
everything in the attraction
were quartz fixtures.

2397
02:07:49,200 --> 02:07:51,520
And because that's what.
You, well, you know, one of the

2398
02:07:51,520 --> 02:07:54,360
other funny things about LED and
it's becoming a bigger issue in

2399
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:57,120
touring because in touring
they're looking at alternative

2400
02:07:57,120 --> 02:07:59,800
power sources now and stuff,
especially festivals.

2401
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:03,200
They're using battery systems as
opposed to diesel generators,

2402
02:08:03,760 --> 02:08:10,160
but LE DS when they're not on or
off versus a lot of the

2403
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:12,960
discharge stuff and whatever you
don't shut it off, you just

2404
02:08:13,080 --> 02:08:17,120
douse it.
And so you get like they, they

2405
02:08:17,120 --> 02:08:20,360
look at the energy savings and
they go, this is a 2000 Watt

2406
02:08:20,360 --> 02:08:24,880
lamp, This is a 300 Watt lamp.
So we're getting roughly 90%

2407
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:28,280
savings, but it's actually well
beyond that because this one's

2408
02:08:28,280 --> 02:08:32,200
shutting off when you're not
using it and and the other one

2409
02:08:32,200 --> 02:08:35,600
isn't, it's on pretty much from
morning till night.

2410
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:37,600
Yeah.
And so, yeah.

2411
02:08:38,080 --> 02:08:42,400
Are there any other like big
challenges that that I guess

2412
02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:46,960
you'd be like luxury, you know,
hold my beer, I can explain to

2413
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:48,960
you.
You know, the luxury for us is,

2414
02:08:48,960 --> 02:08:52,080
is that we, we are on the
project for its entire life

2415
02:08:52,080 --> 02:08:54,760
cycle.
Yeah, I'm in the room when we

2416
02:08:54,760 --> 02:08:58,040
start talking about we're going
to build Rainier Springs Racers.

2417
02:08:58,040 --> 02:09:00,880
And I.
So I start that and I'm, and I'm

2418
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:04,120
the last person out the door at
the very end finishing

2419
02:09:04,120 --> 02:09:06,480
programming.
And I, I shut the door and the

2420
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:10,520
guests run in the front door.
That's a luxury that that I

2421
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:12,480
don't know of any other
organization may have.

2422
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:15,120
Well, consulting then, do you
come back in?

2423
02:09:15,560 --> 02:09:18,320
Do you come back in after and
look at it again and say, you

2424
02:09:18,320 --> 02:09:20,480
know, there are things that we
could fix?

2425
02:09:21,520 --> 02:09:24,880
Yes, I'm pretty much as a
civilian at that point.

2426
02:09:24,880 --> 02:09:30,080
We have we have teams in in each
park that are that that maintain

2427
02:09:30,080 --> 02:09:32,680
the quality and review those
shows.

2428
02:09:32,680 --> 02:09:36,400
So there are there are staff in
place whose job it is to

2429
02:09:36,480 --> 02:09:39,400
maintain this.
But if I ride an attraction and

2430
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:42,920
something is is wrong and should
be fixed right away, I'll shoot

2431
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:45,360
an e-mail off to the team, say,
hey, we should get in there.

2432
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:48,520
And this is bad enough that
someone should go check this

2433
02:09:48,520 --> 02:09:50,840
focus.
Yeah, but the ability to be

2434
02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:57,320
there, and so that's magical, is
that I get to see it at every

2435
02:09:57,320 --> 02:10:00,160
phase.
And so I'm there in construction

2436
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:02,720
and would get when something
can't go where it was supposed

2437
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:06,560
to go and it has to move, I as
the line designer get to decide

2438
02:10:06,560 --> 02:10:08,600
where that fixture moves to.
Yeah.

2439
02:10:08,760 --> 02:10:11,440
And in any other world, the,
it's the electrical and you

2440
02:10:11,440 --> 02:10:14,240
know, it's the the electrician
who decides where that down

2441
02:10:14,240 --> 02:10:16,680
light's going to go because
there's mechanical duct in the

2442
02:10:16,680 --> 02:10:20,120
way, right, right.
So I, I can either have the

2443
02:10:20,120 --> 02:10:23,000
power to fight to move the
mechanical systems out of the

2444
02:10:23,000 --> 02:10:26,760
way if it's important enough, or
I can decide if there's another

2445
02:10:26,760 --> 02:10:29,400
place that light can go and
there's a lion designer, I get

2446
02:10:29,400 --> 02:10:32,880
to make that choice.
So that's, that's a real crazy

2447
02:10:32,880 --> 02:10:35,680
blessing.
And and and a way of working.

2448
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:38,440
I can't imagine not working.
Yeah, Yeah.

2449
02:10:38,680 --> 02:10:40,840
But what about what about other
challenges though?

2450
02:10:40,840 --> 02:10:43,880
Like outside of the you can't
see a light are are there other

2451
02:10:43,880 --> 02:10:49,000
things that are relatively
exclusively Disney, like where

2452
02:10:49,240 --> 02:10:53,840
maybe in another type of job you
wouldn't run into those types of

2453
02:10:53,840 --> 02:10:56,280
problems?
Not really.

2454
02:10:56,640 --> 02:11:00,560
No, no, no.
But hiding the lights is

2455
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:05,640
important, Yeah.
Being able to fight for the

2456
02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:09,000
tools to be successful, yeah.
Is something that's uniquely

2457
02:11:09,360 --> 02:11:12,200
unique to being a member of the
team and imagining everything.

2458
02:11:12,200 --> 02:11:18,360
Well, I think there's an
inherent pressure to always, do

2459
02:11:18,680 --> 02:11:22,720
you use the word a lot magical
to do magical things because you

2460
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:25,400
are in the most magical place on
earth, right, Right.

2461
02:11:25,440 --> 02:11:29,880
And so there's always pressure
probably to, to not just be

2462
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:35,120
good, but to to excel.
And that to me seems like that

2463
02:11:35,120 --> 02:11:38,280
would be significant on a daily
basis, that kind of pressure.

2464
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:41,280
Yeah, there, right there is all
the history and there's the

2465
02:11:41,280 --> 02:11:43,440
magic that you're going to leave
to the guest.

2466
02:11:43,440 --> 02:11:46,680
And it's far more than just
being able for someone to see to

2467
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:49,360
see something.
It wants to be magical, as you

2468
02:11:49,360 --> 02:11:52,600
say, as a line designer in the
industry, you're writing our

2469
02:11:52,600 --> 02:11:55,160
attractions, trying to figure
out how we did that.

2470
02:11:55,160 --> 02:11:57,760
Yeah.
So we're always trying to make

2471
02:11:57,760 --> 02:11:59,920
you have to figure out how we
did that.

2472
02:11:59,960 --> 02:12:02,240
That's awesome.
So that's so that's fun.

2473
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:04,720
Yeah.
You know, driving industry to to

2474
02:12:04,720 --> 02:12:08,840
make products to make our jobs
easier is something again that

2475
02:12:09,040 --> 02:12:11,840
that that I had never
experienced before.

2476
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:14,840
So that so that's wait.
Yeah.

2477
02:12:15,080 --> 02:12:19,280
But really just being able to be
a member of the team is, is fun

2478
02:12:19,280 --> 02:12:24,800
and, and me and for me, I'm a
real physical, hands on person.

2479
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:29,680
So for my workflow, I'm able to,
I'm the person who just gets to

2480
02:12:29,680 --> 02:12:32,600
decide where the lights go in an
attraction.

2481
02:12:32,600 --> 02:12:34,880
Yeah.
And that's unique to Disney and

2482
02:12:34,880 --> 02:12:38,200
unique to me and the teams that
I work with.

2483
02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:41,040
So we do what we do, electrical
drawings, and they go to

2484
02:12:41,040 --> 02:12:44,240
electrical contractor and it
shows lights on catwalks and in

2485
02:12:44,240 --> 02:12:48,080
ceilings.
And we get to physically tell

2486
02:12:48,080 --> 02:12:51,080
the contractor where to install
that stuff.

2487
02:12:51,120 --> 02:12:54,480
Yeah.
And that's unique to Disney, you

2488
02:12:54,480 --> 02:12:56,880
know, So that's fun.
Yeah.

2489
02:12:56,960 --> 02:12:57,800
For.
Yeah.

2490
02:12:58,400 --> 02:13:01,360
Before we get away from Disney,
because I, I want to, you know,

2491
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:03,440
I can't keep here all day,
unfortunately.

2492
02:13:03,440 --> 02:13:06,200
And I want to move on to talk
about your family for a minute

2493
02:13:06,280 --> 02:13:10,120
in it.
But so if you were talking to a

2494
02:13:10,120 --> 02:13:15,200
room full of of college students
right now who are deciding, you

2495
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:17,560
know, am I going to go be a
rock'n'roll touring person?

2496
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:19,200
Am I going to go work on
Broadway?

2497
02:13:19,200 --> 02:13:22,200
Am I going to, you know, go do
corporate shows?

2498
02:13:23,360 --> 02:13:29,880
What would you say to them to
entice them to a potentially 37

2499
02:13:29,880 --> 02:13:33,360
year career at at Disney like
you've had?

2500
02:13:33,600 --> 02:13:34,520
Like what?
What?

2501
02:13:35,440 --> 02:13:39,000
What's so darn great about it?
What is so darn great about it

2502
02:13:39,000 --> 02:13:42,640
is you're working to in an
organization that is that it's

2503
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:46,360
whole driving force is, is to
make, is to make magic.

2504
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:50,840
And you're working on a scale
that you won't you can't work on

2505
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:56,440
really any place else.
And and for me, that's magic.

2506
02:13:56,720 --> 02:13:59,200
So I tell I talk to kids all the
time.

2507
02:13:59,520 --> 02:14:01,880
I'm like, you should chase
whatever you want to chase.

2508
02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:05,760
Like for me, Disney and theater
was what I always wanted to do.

2509
02:14:05,760 --> 02:14:11,800
Now as as an adult, I probably
see 30 live shows a year.

2510
02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:16,120
I'm a huge concert.
Like if I'm not out your.

2511
02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:17,800
Shirt screams dead.
Head Yeah by.

2512
02:14:17,880 --> 02:14:22,920
The way I must be a dead head.
I, I have, you know, 300

2513
02:14:22,920 --> 02:14:26,520
favorite bands and they go from,
you know, folks that play at

2514
02:14:26,520 --> 02:14:30,280
Sofi, the folks that are at 5050
people in the, in the little

2515
02:14:30,280 --> 02:14:31,720
dive bar here.
Good for you.

2516
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:32,280
That's.
Cool.

2517
02:14:32,840 --> 02:14:37,880
So I I love that and I have a
crazy appreciation for those who

2518
02:14:38,080 --> 02:14:41,280
who program live events like.
I love it, Yeah.

2519
02:14:41,280 --> 02:14:46,840
And, and when live when, when
the lighting designer truly

2520
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:49,280
understands the music that
they're programming the the

2521
02:14:49,280 --> 02:14:54,960
lighting to, I can see it and I,
I smile, I tear up when we know

2522
02:14:54,960 --> 02:14:58,880
when lighting and and, and the
content are perfectly in line.

2523
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:02,200
And I can tell when the lighting
designer has worked with that

2524
02:15:02,200 --> 02:15:05,440
band and they are all In Sync
about what their show's supposed

2525
02:15:05,440 --> 02:15:06,360
to look like.
Yeah.

2526
02:15:06,760 --> 02:15:10,760
And, and, and, and you get to do
that every day at Imagineering.

2527
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:14,680
And as I and I, so I, so I'm
like, Chase, whatever you want

2528
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:16,920
to chase.
But for me, this is what I

2529
02:15:16,920 --> 02:15:20,360
wanted to do.
And I say as a lighting

2530
02:15:20,360 --> 02:15:25,320
designer, I could be working in
New York and there would be 2000

2531
02:15:25,320 --> 02:15:28,760
people a night who see my work
right.

2532
02:15:29,080 --> 02:15:33,360
And out of those 2000 people,
maybe 100 of them open up the

2533
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:37,480
play bill and look to see who
the Lion designer, what even was

2534
02:15:37,480 --> 02:15:39,520
on that?
Yeah, but but you're playing to

2535
02:15:39,960 --> 02:15:43,040
again and your show could run,
you know, for it could be

2536
02:15:43,040 --> 02:15:46,520
Hamilton and run forever as a
lions on air Disney.

2537
02:15:46,520 --> 02:15:52,120
I've got 150,000 people right a
day who are who see my work.

2538
02:15:52,120 --> 02:15:54,640
They don't they don't know who I
am and I don't care that they

2539
02:15:54,640 --> 02:15:58,400
don't know who I am.
But my, my art is on display at

2540
02:15:58,400 --> 02:16:03,440
a scale that is that's
unfathomable in any other world

2541
02:16:03,440 --> 02:16:05,200
of energy.
And for a length of time that.

2542
02:16:05,200 --> 02:16:06,240
And for a length.
Of time.

2543
02:16:06,680 --> 02:16:09,200
You know you you said something
key when I asked you the

2544
02:16:09,200 --> 02:16:13,520
question.
You said at scale, and I can't

2545
02:16:13,520 --> 02:16:16,920
think of much larger scale than
than Disney, you know, from a

2546
02:16:16,920 --> 02:16:20,960
standpoint of, of the size of
these projects and, and the

2547
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:23,880
scope and the length of time
that they're going to run and

2548
02:16:23,880 --> 02:16:27,400
all of those things combined,
you know, it's, it's really

2549
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:28,360
incredible.
So.

2550
02:16:28,360 --> 02:16:31,680
Yeah, I mean your shows in
theory, you know, run forever

2551
02:16:31,680 --> 02:16:36,240
and and, and as a leader of
teams, I let the line design

2552
02:16:36,240 --> 02:16:40,240
team for the the Star Wars
Galaxies edge projects here in

2553
02:16:40,400 --> 02:16:44,240
in Disneyland, in Florida and
just finished this ridiculous

2554
02:16:44,240 --> 02:16:47,719
Disney Springs expansion for
Tokyo Disney Seas.

2555
02:16:50,160 --> 02:16:56,040
I, as an old man, have decided
decided quite some time ago that

2556
02:16:56,520 --> 02:17:02,080
that my joy and my work is in
doing the the large experience

2557
02:17:02,080 --> 02:17:05,400
pieces of a land.
So the crazy E ticket

2558
02:17:05,400 --> 02:17:08,879
attractions that I coveted and
couldn't imagine 30 years ago

2559
02:17:08,879 --> 02:17:11,320
not having.
I'm more than happy just to step

2560
02:17:11,320 --> 02:17:14,799
back and say here, you take it
and I'll come alongside you and

2561
02:17:14,799 --> 02:17:17,639
make sure that you're successful
and I'll be there with you every

2562
02:17:17,639 --> 02:17:20,040
step of the way.
But you own it and this is yours

2563
02:17:20,280 --> 02:17:23,280
and I'm going to take what is
the area development and right

2564
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:26,879
and the and rock work.
So in the last 10 years, 12

2565
02:17:26,879 --> 02:17:31,120
years of my career, what's
defined my art is my ability to

2566
02:17:31,120 --> 02:17:35,200
like giant large scale rock work
installations.

2567
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:37,879
It started with cars land.
That was the first time there

2568
02:17:37,879 --> 02:17:40,520
was ever anything like that ever
in a Disney park.

2569
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:44,840
And the Star Wars lands on have
equal crazy amounts of rock

2570
02:17:44,840 --> 02:17:47,280
work.
And this fantasy springs in

2571
02:17:47,280 --> 02:17:52,360
Tokyo again, has crazy, crazy
landscapes and crazy rock work.

2572
02:17:52,639 --> 02:17:55,840
And so for so for me, you don't
even have to, you cannot ride

2573
02:17:55,840 --> 02:17:57,959
the attractions.
You can just walk through any of

2574
02:17:57,959 --> 02:18:01,559
those lanes and you're seeing my
work and you're being

2575
02:18:01,840 --> 02:18:06,200
emotionally affected by my art
on that, on those installations.

2576
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:09,959
And for me, I would have told
you 30 years ago, I I would

2577
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:13,200
never be that person, but that
is that's who I've become them.

2578
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:16,879
So I'm I'm the giant step back,
big picture guy.

2579
02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:20,040
And that's that's the scale that
I really like to work.

2580
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:23,320
That is that.
And again, no, nobody else does.

2581
02:18:25,200 --> 02:18:26,360
I love that.
Yeah.

2582
02:18:26,360 --> 02:18:32,799
I mean, you know, obviously can
for a young kid go growing up

2583
02:18:32,799 --> 02:18:37,120
going to Disney World and or
Disneyland, sorry, in

2584
02:18:37,120 --> 02:18:44,080
California, and then to spend 37
years, you know, behind the

2585
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:46,520
scenes designing all of these
incredible things.

2586
02:18:46,520 --> 02:18:50,360
And I could just imagine the
first time you ride these rides

2587
02:18:50,360 --> 02:18:54,719
before they open, the smile on
your face, you know, I could

2588
02:18:54,719 --> 02:18:58,680
just imagine it like, what a
cool job in a sense, you know?

2589
02:18:58,680 --> 02:19:01,680
And I'm sure there's a lot of
bureaucracy and there's a lot of

2590
02:19:01,680 --> 02:19:05,799
hard parts about it too, that
you know, you're so carefully

2591
02:19:05,799 --> 02:19:10,120
not mentioning, which is great.
But because I've done business

2592
02:19:10,120 --> 02:19:13,280
with Disney and it's not always
the most magical experience, I

2593
02:19:13,280 --> 02:19:16,799
will tell you.
I tell designers that who I

2594
02:19:16,799 --> 02:19:19,920
hire, you're going to experience
bone crushing stress.

2595
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:21,240
Yeah.
Like bone.

2596
02:19:21,240 --> 02:19:24,120
Like that's bone.
Like you could be prepared for

2597
02:19:24,120 --> 02:19:26,200
bone crushing stress in this
job.

2598
02:19:26,400 --> 02:19:28,639
And you're creating the most
magical places.

2599
02:19:28,840 --> 02:19:32,639
You'll open it up and.
And luckily, you know, the

2600
02:19:32,639 --> 02:19:35,240
further away you get from
opening day, the the the less

2601
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:37,200
stress and the less pain you
remember, right?

2602
02:19:37,200 --> 02:19:39,360
Your baby, just all you have is
joy.

2603
02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:43,520
You're out from opening, but
crazy bone crushing stress.

2604
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:46,120
And I and I still get emails and
calls you.

2605
02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:48,360
But hey, can you told me bone
crushing stress?

2606
02:19:48,559 --> 02:19:50,840
I'm there right now.
I'm like, well, welcome to it.

2607
02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:52,960
And at least you knew that it
was coming, right?

2608
02:19:52,960 --> 02:19:56,400
That's funny.
But so so it is again.

2609
02:19:57,040 --> 02:20:00,680
You're got so much on the line.
Yeah, but at the end of the day,

2610
02:20:00,680 --> 02:20:04,160
you're making magic and but.
It's incredible support that you

2611
02:20:04,160 --> 02:20:05,440
need.
No, it's incredible.

2612
02:20:05,560 --> 02:20:08,760
It's incredible.
So you know, I told you I wanted

2613
02:20:08,760 --> 02:20:13,040
to you mentioned in the in the
pre show here, the pre talk that

2614
02:20:13,040 --> 02:20:19,080
we had about your, your kids are
are getting involved in the

2615
02:20:19,080 --> 02:20:21,680
family business.
Yes, indeed.

2616
02:20:21,680 --> 02:20:25,800
So I've got my daughter is a
show producer producing stuff on

2617
02:20:25,800 --> 02:20:29,800
the Tokyo portfolio.
My son-in-law, Noah Holiday is a

2618
02:20:29,800 --> 02:20:33,440
member of the lighting
department and he's he's taken

2619
02:20:33,440 --> 02:20:36,960
over with Lindsay, the Tokyo
portfolio that I ran for the

2620
02:20:36,960 --> 02:20:41,160
last the last seven years.
Couldn't be more excited,

2621
02:20:41,160 --> 02:20:43,680
couldn't be more blessed again.
You know my how?

2622
02:20:43,680 --> 02:20:46,920
Proud are you?
My daughter, you know, grew up

2623
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:51,920
at Walt Disney World, like until
until she started kindergarten

2624
02:20:51,920 --> 02:20:54,960
here in California, the whole
family was with me in hotel

2625
02:20:54,960 --> 02:20:57,560
rooms in Florida.
Like I tell the story that that

2626
02:20:57,840 --> 02:21:00,400
until my thyro started with
kindergarten, she thought

2627
02:21:00,400 --> 02:21:03,400
somebody came every day and made
her bed and put fresh towels in

2628
02:21:03,400 --> 02:21:05,360
her bathroom and she was thought
every.

2629
02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:07,360
Day started with Mickey Mouse
pancakes.

2630
02:21:07,360 --> 02:21:10,120
Exactly right.
She was very sad when she got

2631
02:21:10,120 --> 02:21:12,120
out of bed and nobody made her
bed behind her.

2632
02:21:12,440 --> 02:21:14,920
She had to replace the towels.
That's hilarious.

2633
02:21:14,920 --> 02:21:17,880
So, so truly, truly has grown.
Up.

2634
02:21:17,920 --> 02:21:21,160
And was that any prodding from
you like you really should look

2635
02:21:21,160 --> 02:21:22,720
at this, You really should look
at this.

2636
02:21:23,000 --> 02:21:26,160
You know, the last thing you
want is, you know, is your kids

2637
02:21:26,160 --> 02:21:28,080
to suffer like, you know, like,
like you did.

2638
02:21:28,080 --> 02:21:29,840
Yeah.
But I couldn't be prouder.

2639
02:21:29,840 --> 02:21:33,920
And that's amazing, the fact
that she, I made a point as a

2640
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:37,240
designer and as an as an
imaginary to make sure that my

2641
02:21:37,240 --> 02:21:40,200
kids understood what I did for a
living.

2642
02:21:40,200 --> 02:21:42,520
Yeah.
So my wife, who's also just

2643
02:21:42,520 --> 02:21:44,600
retired, was the 3rd grade
teacher.

2644
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:47,000
And she would ask her kids all
the time, what do your parents

2645
02:21:47,040 --> 02:21:48,600
do?
And their, their kids don't

2646
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:49,440
know, right.
Yeah.

2647
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:52,640
So when dad's going to be gone
for two or three weeks on an

2648
02:21:52,640 --> 02:21:55,160
installation, you're going to be
home alone with mom, and you

2649
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:58,560
don't know where Dad went or
what Dad does, That's got to be

2650
02:21:59,720 --> 02:22:01,560
quite a bit of stress to be a
kid.

2651
02:22:01,720 --> 02:22:03,600
Yeah.
So I always made it clear that

2652
02:22:03,840 --> 02:22:07,880
they were part of, they were
part of it for every vacation.

2653
02:22:07,960 --> 02:22:10,480
When they have summer break,
they may be with me.

2654
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:14,800
Whether it was Florida or Hong
Kong, they knew what Dad did and

2655
02:22:14,800 --> 02:22:17,480
they were excited and they lived
the dream of.

2656
02:22:17,600 --> 02:22:20,520
So they were rock stars, I'm
sure among their friends and

2657
02:22:20,520 --> 02:22:23,120
stuff.
Your dad is the guy at Disney

2658
02:22:23,120 --> 02:22:25,120
who does all this stuff.
Wow.

2659
02:22:25,480 --> 02:22:29,200
Yeah, so so that's so that's so
that's that's important is for

2660
02:22:29,200 --> 02:22:31,720
the you.
They got to know what you do and

2661
02:22:31,720 --> 02:22:34,200
why you do it, because then when
you're gone, they understand

2662
02:22:34,200 --> 02:22:37,320
that you're making Disneyland
for other kids and you know,

2663
02:22:37,680 --> 02:22:40,920
yeah, that's exciting.
So yeah, I'm blessed.

2664
02:22:41,080 --> 02:22:44,280
My son works in the, in the
video game industry.

2665
02:22:45,080 --> 02:22:50,400
You know, he, he's, he's the
brand manager for, for content

2666
02:22:50,400 --> 02:22:53,840
that he grew up playing.
So again, so all my kids are

2667
02:22:53,840 --> 02:22:57,360
busy truly chasing that is their
dream and have what, what I

2668
02:22:57,360 --> 02:22:59,280
would tell you are they're the
dream jobs.

2669
02:22:59,280 --> 02:23:01,680
And I'm just blessed that, that
my experience.

2670
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:04,560
And you know, they could
understand what it meant to have

2671
02:23:04,560 --> 02:23:06,680
passion and love what you do for
a living.

2672
02:23:06,680 --> 02:23:09,560
And they, they saw that and they
grew up with it and they're

2673
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:13,040
chasing it themselves so well.
I'm I'm the luckiest.

2674
02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:16,400
Dad, and thanks to you and test
track, you know my son's friggin

2675
02:23:16,400 --> 02:23:18,000
race car driver so.
Your.

2676
02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:21,360
Sons are all off making loads of
money and my son's still costing

2677
02:23:21,360 --> 02:23:24,400
me everything I've got.
So but but living the dream and

2678
02:23:24,400 --> 02:23:27,080
having his best Oh yeah.
So that's he's having a great.

2679
02:23:27,080 --> 02:23:29,720
Time right yeah, exactly.
He's having a great old time.

2680
02:23:29,800 --> 02:23:32,080
Yes.
Well, I, I so much appreciate

2681
02:23:32,080 --> 02:23:35,640
it's been over two hours and I
got 80,000 more questions I want

2682
02:23:35,640 --> 02:23:40,120
to ask you part as Disney fan
and geek and and part just you

2683
02:23:40,120 --> 02:23:44,760
know, you've had an incredible
career and you know, I hope I I

2684
02:23:44,760 --> 02:23:47,680
would assume you're going to
continue doing stuff.

2685
02:23:48,960 --> 02:23:52,800
You know, everyone who leaves
Disney that I'm aware of tends

2686
02:23:52,800 --> 02:23:57,480
to go back to Disney and and do
projects for them as a as a

2687
02:23:57,480 --> 02:24:00,400
contractor, as a freelancer or
whatever.

2688
02:24:01,080 --> 02:24:03,960
I would assume you're going to
touch on some of that stuff.

2689
02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:06,120
It's my goal.
It's my goal to go back and just

2690
02:24:06,120 --> 02:24:07,800
do the fun stuff.
Good for you.

2691
02:24:07,800 --> 02:24:09,920
I'm always available to do the
fun stuff.

2692
02:24:09,920 --> 02:24:13,320
I said much to my department.
You need someone to focus your

2693
02:24:13,320 --> 02:24:15,280
show.
I will come with my Crescent

2694
02:24:15,280 --> 02:24:17,000
wrench and I will focus your
show.

2695
02:24:17,480 --> 02:24:21,160
That is for me that is the joy
is the hands on and the Yeah

2696
02:24:21,200 --> 02:24:22,600
doing so.
Yeah.

2697
02:24:23,080 --> 02:24:25,720
Well, I look forward.
To it I completely appreciate

2698
02:24:25,720 --> 02:24:28,760
you doing this today and it's
been an incredible talk.

2699
02:24:28,760 --> 02:24:33,320
I've learned so much and, and,
and yeah, I'm sure our audience

2700
02:24:33,320 --> 02:24:34,440
will love it.
Well.

2701
02:24:34,440 --> 02:24:37,160
Thank you for reaching out and
caring to hear you know an old

2702
02:24:37,160 --> 02:24:41,000
man in the stories about making
magic for for families my.

2703
02:24:41,000 --> 02:24:43,160
Show is called Geezers of Gear
Ken.

2704
02:24:44,320 --> 02:24:46,240
I think I am a geezer.
Yes, you're.

2705
02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:48,080
Officially a geezer as well, so
yeah.

2706
02:24:48,560 --> 02:24:50,800
Like that is perfect.
And we talked about gear.

2707
02:24:51,360 --> 02:24:53,680
Yes, really.
Certainly that's what makes the

2708
02:24:53,680 --> 02:24:56,560
magic for us.
So thank you again for reaching

2709
02:24:56,560 --> 02:24:57,680
out.
It's been an absolute pleasure.

2710
02:24:57,760 --> 02:24:58,680
Yeah.
Thank you.

2711
02:24:59,080 --> 02:25:00,520
All right, see you later.
Yeah, bye, Bye.