#331 - Allen Branton - From Roadie to Lighting Legend

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When when Sharon and I were
working on the book, I was

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looking for a quote from Joel
Gallon.

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So, so I say to Joel, I said,
look, when you and I started, I

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was doing 80% tours and 20%
television and, and over the

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next 15 or 20 years, those
ratios did this right.

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And what happened is that
basically I, I got invited to do

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more and more television and I
found it interesting and

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fulfilling.
And I think somewhere along in

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there the, the perception in the
world was that he's ATV guy.

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But it wasn't any decision I
made.

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It just sort of evolved.
Like that tour I did was 1999

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talking to.
I was talking to Winky at Tate

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the other day about doing a tour
for somebody.

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I'd like to do one more.
Today on Geezers of Gear, we're

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joined by Emmy award-winning
lighting designer Alan Branton.

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With A50 year career spanning
tours, television and live

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events from MTV Unplugged and
the Super Bowl Halftime Show to

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tours with U2, Diana Ross and
The Rolling Stones, Alan has lit

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some of the most iconic stages
in entertainment history.

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Alan's work has earned multiple
prime time Emmy Awards and

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nominations and he is a
co-author of Lighting Design

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Beyond Theater, a process for
the evolving entertainment

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industry.
With 50 years of incredible

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work, Allen has shaped the
visual language of modern live

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entertainment across every
continent except Antarctica.

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Please welcome the legend.
Allen Branton caught you mid

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sip.
How are you, Allen?

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Good to see you.
Yeah, I'm doing really, really

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well.
I'm back in Florida now.

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So I went from, well, it's funny
because I left Banff, Canada, a

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couple of weeks ago and there
was a foot of snow in my front

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yard.
I took pictures and stuff.

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It was just beautiful.
It looked like Christmas and,

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you know, so a couple days ago
I, I said to my fiance, hey,

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let's look at the camera because
we've got cameras.

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When when I miss the mountains,
I just look at cameras from my

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house and you know, I expected
to see a couple feet of snow and

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right as I turn on the camera, I
see a guy riding by in shorts

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and AT shirt on a mountain bike.
I'm like, what?

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So, you know, it's been like
50-60 degrees every day for the

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past week or so.
It's it's cold here in Bozeman.

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It it was warm up until just a
couple days ago.

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It snowed night before last.
Now it's melted.

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It's going to be in this
schizophrenic state for about

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two or three weeks and then
it'll be winter for good.

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I.
Think yeah, so you live in

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Bozeman.
I, I love Bozeman.

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It's a I've so I, I think I'm
about a 7 hour drive from there,

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7 1/2 hour drive from Bozeman
because I used to ship my car in

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and, and then just fly into
Bozeman and pick it up and

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drive, drive across the border
because it's hard to ship

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straight into Canada from
Florida.

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And I have a really good friend
who's from Bozeman, who I don't

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know if you know him, he's a
magician.

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Probably not Jay Owen, my wife
and I've only been here.

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Sorry, what was his name?
Jay Owen House.

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No, now I wonder if he's part of
the Owen House Hardware family.

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It's possible, I don't.
Know they are.

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They are sort of Bozeman
legends.

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You know, they have this as it's
amazing hardware store downtown.

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You know, like one of those
places that no matter what you

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are looking for, they have.
Yeah, fish hooks, hot dogs,

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whatever.
Yeah.

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Whatever.
Yeah, that's, I love those

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stores, by the way, the sort of
small town general stores kind

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of thing.
Yeah.

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This episode is brought to you
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I wonder.

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I'm going to have to ask him
next time I speak to him.

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I think he's in Vegas right now.
But for the longest time he

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wouldn't go do shows in Vegas or
anything.

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And he created this touring
machine where he bought all the

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gear, he bought the stage, he
bought the bus, he bought the

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truck, everything.
And his whole family worked for

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the traveling circus basically.
And what they did is they went

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to all these small towns, you
know, in Montana, in North

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Dakota, South Dakota, and all
the states around.

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And they had a call center that
would sell tickets for like the

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local gymnasium.
And they put 2000 people in

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there or the local Community
Center and they put 2000 people

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in there.
And they were usually the only

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act that came in every year and
gave these people entertainment,

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right?
And so he did really well

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because he was literally the
only game in town and just a

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fantastic family, really, really
nice guy.

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But I got to check into whether
the Owen House hardware store is

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part of the family, the same
family.

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My wife have and I have only
been here, let's see, six or

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seven years.
We we've been married 43 years

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and we is that it?
I'm from, Yeah, yeah.

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I'm, I'm from Little Rock, AR
originally.

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And, and we went to high school
together, but we weren't

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particularly close then.
And then when I went freelance

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and came back to Arkansas for a
time, we met again.

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And after we married, I said I'd
like you to see something.

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And I took her to Wyoming and we
rented a house then and there.

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And so have, for the most part.
I've lived in the Rockies

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somewhere.
Wow, all that's cool.

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Yeah, you know it.
Most of our married life.

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It's funny because my, my now
ex-wife and I, we actually took

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my mother to the Banff Springs
Hotel and it was, I don't

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remember, it was something
significant, her birthday or

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something.
And we stayed there for a

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weekend and, and we were leaving
the hotel and, and driving back

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to Calgary to go to the airport
and drop my mom off in Calgary.

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And my, my ex-wife said, you
know, I really love it here.

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It's so beautiful.
I'd love to spend more time

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here.
And I stopped to fill up the car

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in Canmore and which is right
next door to Banff.

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And I saw a real estate magazine
and picked it up and, and handed

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it to her and said, here you go
find something.

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And, you know, I ended up buying
a condo and then eventually 10

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years later, five years later,
built a house.

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And I've had a house there now
for 20, just over 20 years.

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I think that's cool. 20 years.
That's cool.

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So I went to Jackson Hole in
1982 before anybody even knew

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what that was.
It was incredibly sleepy and all

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the businesses closed and the
shelter seasons and it was and

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it was incredibly hard to
access.

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There's no crummy air service
and you know, it would just so

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we built a house there and and
our kids were born there and

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everything.
And and then later on we left

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for a little while and when we
came back to the West, we chose

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Bozeman for various reasons.
Jackson Hole we didn't recognize

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anymore.
And Bozeman has a fantastic

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airport.
So I can still go work

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everywhere.
Most places I can go non-stop.

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Anymore.
Wow, that's nice.

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Can't even do that from here,
from West Palm Beach where I

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live.
But yeah, it's amazing what has

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happened.
It's the same thing, by the way,

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and where I am in Alberta.
But it's amazing what's happened

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with both Montana and and
Wyoming.

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You know, like rock stars and
movie stars and stuff.

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I.
Wish I hadn't.

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I wish I hadn't sold that house
I built.

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Yeah, you know, but that's a
whole other story.

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It happens.
We used to call that the house

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that David built because I I
built that house the year after

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I did my first David Bowie tour.
Oh, wow.

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That kind of was a launch point
for me.

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Yeah.
In terms of getting noticed, you

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know?
Yeah.

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Yeah, well, I want to get in
that, but I thank you for

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joining me today on Geezers of
Gear.

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This episode is brought to you
by Delicate Productions.

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Since 1980, Delicate Productions
has mastered the art of

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From iconic music festivals to
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Creative impact.
I want to start out 'cause you

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know, you started a little bit
before that.

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I think you said you started at
21, but the bio of yours that I

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read said 23.
So where were you between 21 and

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23?
Because 23, I think you went to

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Shoko, right?
No, I was at, I was at Shoko 2

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weeks after I turned 21.
Oh wow.

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And and I was there for almost
five years, between four and

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five years.
And they, when I got there, they

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had, they've been in business 3
or 4 years I guess.

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And they had just recently added
a lighting department to their

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sound company.
At that time, even 1973, they

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had eight complete sound systems
touring North America, Very

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impressive people.
And so I get named they, they

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didn't call us electricians in
those days.

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We were roadies, yeah.
And and I get put out on a Beach

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Boys tour about three months
after I get there, I guess.

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And Kirby Wyatt, who is the
lighting department head was out

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there L being that show and he
announces after we're out there

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two or three weeks that Led
Zeppelin is coming up for them.

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And that's their most important
client and and tricky to deal

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with client and he's going to
have to go back and prep that.

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And so I'm going to be the LD
for The Beach Boys.

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And I'm like, excuse me?
And so.

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Did you have experience though
before that?

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Like when you started?
I had.

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Experience in a in a band, I've
been, I've been in a band and a

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band leader for in my youth.
And so I had a sense of, you

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know what a show is and a stage
and you know what constitutes,

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you know, the, the nuts and
bolts of a presentation and, and

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he could tell that from being
around me.

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I suppose so, but.
You'd never done lighting and

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now you're the LD for the beach
noise like.

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A few months later.
So he says, all right, we're

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going, but we're going to have
you watch me do this.

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You run the console and and I'll
call the spots and then we'll go

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00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,080
to a place where you do both and
it's all written down on these 3

226
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,440
by 5 cards.
It's a 2 scene preset in those

227
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,480
days.
Nothing very crude.

228
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,840
And so he indoctrinates me for
about a week and then just

229
00:14:53,840 --> 00:15:02,560
leaves me there.
And Kenny Whitwright was the

230
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,200
lead sound engineer and the
senior show Co man on that tour.

231
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,720
He he was an audio man in those
days.

232
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,800
And before that was before the
color changer and all that.

233
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,960
And and so he and I have known
each other for however many

234
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,320
years.
That is 52.

235
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,240
I think I was just with him
about a week ago.

236
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,120
We were really out here and
yeah.

237
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,560
How's he doing?
I haven't heard from him or seen

238
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,080
him in years.
He's doing great.

239
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,640
I like we've been fishing every
summer for the last four or five

240
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,040
years.
That's cool, but anyway, so I

241
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,200
get dropped into the deep end
doing that and I do OK, I guess.

242
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:49,080
And they then in the middle of
summer that same year, 73, they

243
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,320
started me as the LD on the
Three Dog Night national tour.

244
00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:00,720
And and that was a really
interesting experience because

245
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,200
Kirby decided Kirby the
department head, he decided that

246
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:11,440
because you had three featured
people in that band, that

247
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,640
someone calling spots and
running the console with a

248
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,720
little too many balls in the
air.

249
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,000
So he said, I want you to call
the spots because there's all

250
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,240
this choreography between the
three people.

251
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,240
I want you to call the spots
only and we'll have someone else

252
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,720
run the console.
But you're the senior man.

253
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,880
And so that was a really
formative experience because two

254
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,560
things I was able to watch the
show from all over the house,

255
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,880
high, low, left, right, far,
close, because all I had to have

256
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,560
was a headset radio.
Yeah.

257
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,640
And and so and I could watch it
without having to take my eyes

258
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,480
away from it and look at a
console.

259
00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,360
So probably what I think I
believe started then.

260
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,800
Really interesting.
Interesting.

261
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,200
So did did shows after that?
Were you able to use the same

262
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,839
format or did you have to go?
Back to the console again.

263
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,160
Let's see.
After that I did The Guess Who

264
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,680
and I did.
I did both.

265
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,960
I called the spots and and.
Randomly.

266
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,000
And I'm trying to think of what
the others might have been.

267
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:34,640
Did the band and then they put
me into a advance man role for

268
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,280
about a year where I would
travel around with a rigger and

269
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,720
go to all the cities that
they're a clients were going to

270
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,720
visit.
Because this should have been

271
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,160
1974 and 75.
Nobody had rigged lighting and

272
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,520
sound in all those venues
before, so we had to go around

273
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,080
and and ensure that you could
hang the PA system and hang

274
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,520
everything and keep the sight
lines clear because as you know,

275
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,240
all, all roads lead to the box
office.

276
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,480
Yeah, interesting it to me.
It's wild.

277
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,760
Like you said something before
we started recording and you've

278
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,960
already made it come completely
full circle.

279
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,200
True, but you couldn't have done
what you did today like you

280
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,720
couldn't have started in the
industry the way that you did

281
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,400
and and gone to where you got
today.

282
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,240
That that job where I was going
around to all the major cities

283
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:41,600
in North America representing
The Who, Paul McCartney, it's

284
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,360
etcetera, Genesis.
I think one time I would have

285
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,160
been 2425.
Wow.

286
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,520
It was literally like 3 or 4
years of experience in the.

287
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,600
Industry but but now the rigor
that travelled with me was it

288
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,560
was a more experience as a
rigor.

289
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,760
But see he had this guy his name
was Al Cain.

290
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,120
He had come from from the
shipyards in Rhode Island.

291
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,920
He was not a entertainment rigor
either.

292
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:24,360
And anyway the IT was just so
new what we were trying to do

293
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,280
now now remember the people who
own Shoko.

294
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,040
None of them were more than
early 30s.

295
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,280
Everybody was.
Young yeah, and the whole

296
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,320
industry was innocent and there.
Was no, There was no.

297
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:46,160
There was no sense that you
shouldn't be doing what you're

298
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:52,720
doing.
Says who Says, you know, and in

299
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,680
our book, we were interviewed
Rusty Boucher and he, he talked

300
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,680
about the fact that that when
they were building those

301
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,000
lighting systems and sound
systems and, and rigging systems

302
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,080
and all that, he said none of
the things that you needed to

303
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,480
accomplish those tasks could be
bought anywhere.

304
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,320
You had to make it.
You had to invent it and make

305
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:15,680
it.
From nothing.

306
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,080
That was the industry back then.
Yeah.

307
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:24,680
And so somebody who was in their
40s or 50s and an established

308
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,080
business person wouldn't have
tackled something like that.

309
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,400
It would have looked ridiculous
to them I I think.

310
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,120
Yeah, yeah, that that is so
amazing.

311
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,760
And so, you know, three or four
years in, you're already

312
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,160
advancing shows like The Who and
and Paul McCartney that that

313
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,120
just blows my mind right there.
So you stayed, you stayed at

314
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,480
Shoko for what, five years?
Oh, let's see, I started in

315
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:59,880
January of 1973 and I think I
left in the middle of 78.

316
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,240
OK.
So I got AI, got an offer to do

317
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,040
a freelance job for Alice
Cooper.

318
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:15,280
Oh, and and it was going to pay
what in those days seemed like

319
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:21,120
really good money and.
Which which tour would that have

320
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:22,840
been?
The Alice Cooper Show.

321
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,280
No, wait, wait, wait.
King of the silver Screen.

322
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,640
Oh, OK.
Yes, that was a couple.

323
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,760
One was a was a big TV set on
stage.

324
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,520
OK, Yeah.
And the reason I took that job?

325
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,520
I love Shoko and I love the
people, but they decided after

326
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,840
I'd done all this advance man
work that they wanted to create

327
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,880
a department that would do
nothing but that.

328
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,360
And I would be the department
head.

329
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,960
And they gave me an office and
all this stuff and I just

330
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,320
couldn't do that.
I missed.

331
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,240
I missed doing shows.
And so when this offer came, I

332
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,000
said, well, here we go.
It's amazing the little

333
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,840
decisions that you make in life
that shape your career, right?

334
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,640
Because I mean, probably at that
point you're like, you know, you

335
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,520
probably had to think about it
at least like, oh, a desk and I

336
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,440
don't have to travel so much and
you know, but see, but see, I'm.

337
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,120
26 or 7 years old.
I like traveling.

338
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:28,960
Travel is cool, you know I've.
Never been anywhere before.

339
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,880
Yeah, yeah.
Before that.

340
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,600
Job.
Yeah.

341
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:38,960
And and, you know, and I left
there right before the truck and

342
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,840
bus era.
Yeah, we we drove everywhere.

343
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,960
Yeah.
So that's one of the things that

344
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,800
I'd sort of cherish is that I
can say that I drove a vehicle

345
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,880
into every one of the 48 states.
Wow.

346
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,360
Yeah, it was also before
Verilight.

347
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,560
You know, it was.
It was.

348
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,280
Yeah, that they, they started
that right after I left there,

349
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,880
but then they then I was after
Genesis.

350
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:16,720
I was the first designer that
they that that use them.

351
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,360
Oh really?
So they went back to you and

352
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,600
said, what do you think?
Well, I don't know if we, they

353
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,840
went back to me or I went back
to them, but we, we, we put them

354
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:32,960
on the My Diana Ross show, which
was in in Vegas at that time.

355
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,560
And we were, you know, VL ones
and.

356
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,600
Yeah.
So that was really cool.

357
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:53,920
Yeah, Yeah.
So when did, when did the house

358
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,720
that David built, when did David
come about and how did that come

359
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,080
about?
Because that was obviously a

360
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,480
pivotal moment.
That was another, that was 1983,

361
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,240
and that was another Shoko
connection.

362
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:14,240
Yeah, they were going to do his
tour and they recommended me to

363
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:25,000
them and we rehearsed in Dallas
at at a sound stage there.

364
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:32,520
And that's probably the best
rock show I've ever seen to to

365
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,760
this day.
Which tour was that exception

366
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,000
of?
Sorry, which tour was that?

367
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,320
One that had to be like around
the?

368
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,400
China Girl series Moonlight.
Yeah, yeah, China Girl was a hit

369
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,680
right there.
Yeah, yeah.

370
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,600
And and let's dance.
Yeah, Yeah.

371
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,560
That was a big moment for for
David.

372
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,560
Yeah.
So that you say it was the best

373
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,280
rock show ever.
Why?

374
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240
Why is that?
What was unique?

375
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,520
I think it was the sort of most
polished, unified presentation

376
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,160
really radical for Rock'n'roll
at that time.

377
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:17,440
He got, we had a wonderful set
that Mark Rabbit's designed and,

378
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,840
and forgive me, I can't recite
the name, but he he commissioned

379
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,320
the guy who was the in house
wardrobe person at the

380
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,800
Metropolitan Opera to design
costumes for himself in the

381
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,840
band.
And so the, the thing had a

382
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,880
look, you know, before lighting
ever showed up.

383
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,320
And, and I had been, I had a
certain amount of experience by

384
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,480
that time.
I've been lighting my own stuff

385
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,640
for 10 years so.
You knew what you.

386
00:25:53,640 --> 00:26:05,160
Wanted and we had 40 very lights
on that thing and we used them

387
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,000
for the first time, probably
about a third of them as shin

388
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,080
bursters doing a horizontal
focus.

389
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,720
And I was at the at the set
company in San Francisco, FM

390
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,200
productions finishing the light
plot.

391
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,320
And we called down to Dallas and
said, can we can we put these

392
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,000
things in the wings like like a
ballet?

393
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,560
Will they behave if you turn
them 90° and clamp them to a

394
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,160
vertical pipe?
And they said, we don't know,

395
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,400
let us do a test.
Wow.

396
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,160
So 24 hours later, they called
back and said, well, they seem

397
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,520
to tolerate it.
OK, go ahead.

398
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,320
Yeah.
So that's a long enough test,

399
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,480
yeah.
Well, you know, they broke all

400
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,920
the time anyway.
Yeah, That's, you know, Yeah.

401
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,280
And that's not to be critical.
I mean, no, a monumental

402
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,080
achievement.
Yeah, of course.

403
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,280
But they were fragile, let's
say.

404
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,120
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that was when they had the

405
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,800
curtains and and the techs back
there working on them and stuff.

406
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:11,960
It was.
All very magical.

407
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,680
Had a full time tech.
Yeah, yeah.

408
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,160
I'm really delighted and
gratified that I've lived long

409
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:25,040
enough to see that technology
become utterly reliable.

410
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,920
Yeah, You know, it's funny.
I was just talking to somebody

411
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,600
about this yesterday.
The one great thing about being

412
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,280
old is that we've seen all of
these different sort of versions

413
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,240
of everything, you know, and I
was, I was in the moving light

414
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,520
business when moving lights
first started.

415
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,680
You know, I was part of the
original gang of moving light

416
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,760
salespeople.
And, you know, that's cool.

417
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,760
Like I, I wouldn't have as much
as I'd like to be 20 years old.

418
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,280
I wouldn't want to be born in,
you know, 2010.

419
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,400
You know, my wife has a sign up
in the kitchen that says, honey,

420
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,760
you couldn't pay me to be 20.
Yeah, it's a good point,

421
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,600
especially now with all this
stuff going on, which I want to

422
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,000
talk to you about a bit later
too.

423
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,920
But the the the be, I don't
think it's probably been 10

424
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:26,480
years since I designed anything
that wasn't 100% automated.

425
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,160
Really with?
The exception of, you know, a

426
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,040
foot light or something that
just sits there.

427
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:39,520
Yeah, on that original David
Bowie tour, I would think that

428
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,840
if someone said, hey, you know,
in 20-30, forty years, whatever,

429
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,280
you're going to be designing
shows with only moving lights,

430
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,800
you probably would have been
like, get out of here,

431
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,640
knucklehead.
I don't know, you know?

432
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,320
Yeah, I don't know.
But well, just because of the

433
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,960
reliability issues.
Back then, you know that that

434
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:04,680
was a design, a design component
or feature or criteria baby.

435
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,960
Given how unreliable that stuff
could be, you were very careful

436
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,800
not to put a automated light in
a position or or assigned to a

437
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,560
task that you really had to have
100% without fail, like a key

438
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,000
light on the.
On.

439
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,600
An important performer.
Or stuff like that, automated

440
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,240
follow spots now you know, like
yeah, you wouldn't used VL ones

441
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,440
for automated follow so nice I
guess.

442
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,800
I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have
used any, any automated light up

443
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,120
until you know, very recently
for that.

444
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,800
Test Yeah, I agree with you.
I agree with you.

445
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,040
So you know you.
I think another major, major

446
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,000
moment for you and for the
industry really was when you

447
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:58,480
somehow decided to transition
from touring from, from lighting

448
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,400
live performers on tour to to
lighting from I guess behind a

449
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:10,880
camera lens or whatever.
So a, where did that come from?

450
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,200
What, what caused that sort of
transition in, in your career

451
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,720
and, and B I'd, I'd love to
hear, you know, sort of your

452
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,200
mentality and philosophy that
developed as far as the

453
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,480
differences and nuances related
to lighting from behind a camera

454
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,800
to, you know, lighting the
performer on stage.

455
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,080
I'll.
Try to make this short enough to

456
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,400
be practical that.
It's all good podcast.

457
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:46,440
OK, the first time this topic
came up, I was in Las Vegas with

458
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:57,120
Diane Ross and we were told that
HBO had bought the rights to to

459
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,000
record her show at Caesar's
Palace.

460
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,560
I think this would have been
1979 or 8079, I think.

461
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:17,400
And so these people show up from
HBO, the director Marty Callner,

462
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,160
who who who died a year or two
ago and Greg Brunton, the

463
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,640
lighting designer who was with
Ferentino at the time and he

464
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,120
died a few years ago.
And they both showed up and saw

465
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,720
the show and started, started in
on me about how much they loved

466
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,920
it and how much they had to
change it.

467
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,720
And so, but that turned out to
be a really, really interesting

468
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,240
experience because they really
actually did like it.

469
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,240
It was a really great show.
And they they completely

470
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,520
scrapped the set and brought in
a different set.

471
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,000
It did the same things
theatrically, but it it, it was

472
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,760
rigged to fly.
So it's just a, just a more

473
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,840
flexible scenario for
television.

474
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,320
And Greg was very generous.
He said, look, I'm going to just

475
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:23,280
go through your show Q by Q and
explain to you what works for us

476
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,840
and what doesn't.
And he was there with me every

477
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,840
afternoon for about two weeks.
But she, she would play there 3

478
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,160
or 4 weeks in those days.
So he starts doing this and I'm

479
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:41,800
I'll get all this, you know,
theory about color saturation

480
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,640
and contrast ratio and all this
stuff.

481
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:53,600
And so Long story short, we get
the thing kind of shaped up the

482
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,880
way he likes it.
And every time we make a change,

483
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,440
we see it that night on stage,
right, Because she's playing

484
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,280
every night to show tonight.
So so we get to the first time

485
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,320
the cameras come in and it looks
pretty good.

486
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:13,240
It's not bad.
And and then they recorded the

487
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,200
next night and the next night, I
think.

488
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,240
And the edited show was
sensational.

489
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,160
And I couldn't have done that by
myself at all.

490
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,720
But I watched and learned what
he was saying.

491
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,160
And I thought, this is really
interesting.

492
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:44,200
This is really interesting.
And so by the time the Bowie

493
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,800
thing comes along, which is
about four years later, I've

494
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,920
done some other stuff for
television, much of it with Greg

495
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,600
there because I request that he
be the one to come as a

496
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,680
consultant.
So the Bowie thing comes up and

497
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,200
we decide, OK, we're going to
declare that we want to do this

498
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,280
ourselves.
And we won that argument with

499
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:11,400
the producer in the network and,
and it was really good

500
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,400
television.
You can, you can still see it on

501
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,520
YouTube and stuff.
It's, it's, it's quite

502
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,320
something.
The cameras are crude, but the

503
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,280
lighting is reproduced pretty
faithfully because I kind of

504
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:32,440
knew how to squeeze all that
contrast by then and and get it

505
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:43,280
to photograph.
So after that I am deemed

506
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,920
competent to do television,
which was wrong.

507
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:55,960
But to answer your original
question, I thought that if you

508
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:02,760
do a rock show on television, I
thought, well, the highest, the

509
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,560
highest vision you can have is
that it look authentic at home.

510
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200
It doesn't look like somebody
came in and washed it down like

511
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,960
a track meet, you know, which is
what they used to do in those

512
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,160
days.
Yeah.

513
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:23,520
So we started doing that and we
got to do a few more shows like

514
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,120
that.
By the way, the producer of that

515
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:31,560
Bowie show is my oldest client
and I did every show with them

516
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,160
for the next 40 years until they
retired of.

517
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:35,960
Oh my goodness.
Wow.

518
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:42,480
And one of the next ones that
came along, Joel Gallon, I

519
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,080
started working for him about 3
or 4 years after that.

520
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,760
And I've done all of his shows
ever since the late 80s because

521
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,760
he believed in that same notion
that music on television should

522
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,320
look authentic, not like
television.

523
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:06,080
You know, one of his, one of his
classic critiques of stuff like

524
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,320
that is it, it looks like it was
shot in the doctor's office, you

525
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,800
know?
And so the style comes from that

526
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,240
ethos.
Yeah, well, and you know, me

527
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:24,880
being a a knucklehead moving
light sales guy at the time, my

528
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,680
my observation was always just
that, you know, in comes Alan

529
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,640
Branton with a whole bunch of
white lights in the house and

530
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,200
and, you know, it's just this
big sunlight, you know, that

531
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,400
happens over the audience
basically.

532
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,880
And that's how big rock concerts
get lit for film or TV.

533
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,640
And I'm sure it was much more
nuanced and, and much more

534
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,960
thought went into it than that.
But that's, that's always what

535
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,000
it appeared to be to me because
I was a moving light sales guy.

536
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,320
And at the time moving lights
weren't that bright either.

537
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,400
So.
We're.

538
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,360
Putting these moving lights on
stage and you're just, you know,

539
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,240
coming out there and going boom.
Here's all this white light.

540
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,040
You know, that's really
interesting.

541
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,200
I think it's poorly understood
to this day, 100% how how bloody

542
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,760
dim they were in those days.
Yeah, they were dim, you know

543
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,560
now and say we brought all those
pars in to light an audience

544
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:28,680
because if you didn't see that
the audience was there and that

545
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,000
they were excited and thrilled
and then and all that stuff, you

546
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,200
don't have a television show.
Yeah, it looked like it was

547
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,120
recorded in a studio now.
Today we use a high output

548
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,960
automated lighting system on the
audience and they just look like

549
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,560
a beautiful color palette.
And every once in a while when

550
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,280
they get super excited, you can
lift it a little bit and it's

551
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,320
all you know, really subtle and
appropriate to the moment.

552
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,960
Yeah, I would, I would assume a
lot of the technology now and

553
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,320
the cameras is so much better
that you know you're not as

554
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,560
concerned by color temperature
and all those different.

555
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,840
Things that David Bowie show, we
keyed him at 100 foot candles

556
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,520
and the and the TV show I'm
going to do next week, we will

557
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,720
key the performers probably at
about 15 really.

558
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,840
So yeah, certainly when they're
doing music.

559
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:28,680
And so that allows the whole
thing to be way less, you know,

560
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,320
bright and obnoxious.
Well, again, just another dumb

561
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,920
question from me because this is
where my questions are going to

562
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,160
come from.
So what about video screens?

563
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Like it?
Is that still a battle?

564
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,400
I would assume that that's a
massive battle when you're

565
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,200
lighting for TV because it is
the sort of loudest voice in the

566
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:56,680
room in a sense.
It that was trouble for all of

567
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,480
us in the early years, but now
there's just a lot more

568
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,280
understanding and collaboration
between the departments and so

569
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,440
forth.
Because the the big problem with

570
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,160
those screens in the beginning
was that they were designed to

571
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,840
be used outdoors in daylight.
And so if you turn that thing up

572
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:25,240
full brightness inside, it's
just impossible to compete with.

573
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,360
And so over time we've we've
figured out and this is through

574
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,120
a lot of trial and error, you
figured out that depending on

575
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,720
the screen product you want to
turn it down to at at the most

576
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:47,920
15% of full 1515 and sometimes
even less, less than 10 right

577
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,000
now.
Now that depends on the product.

578
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,520
Some of the screen products
wouldn't tolerate that that sort

579
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,280
of limiting and they'd start to
misbehave and pixelate.

580
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,960
Things would happen.
Yeah, bad things would happen,

581
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,640
but but that was basically the
trouble is that those things are

582
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,520
too bright compared to anything
you could do to compete with

583
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,520
them.
And but nowadays everybody's

584
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,120
kind of understands that, I
think, you know, And the way you

585
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:28,120
can tell is if you see a picture
in the press or news footage or

586
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,560
you know, stuff on online or
whatever of somebody's show.

587
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,840
If if this it's rare to see
something like want to take

588
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,960
Taylor Swift for example.
It's rare to see pictures of her

589
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,600
in the press where the screens
aren't balanced to her close up.

590
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,880
The.
Whole thing is calibrated very

591
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:55,760
nicely, and that's just a matter
of the business maturing into

592
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,080
itself, if you will.
Yeah.

593
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,480
Well, and I assume everyone
plays nicely.

594
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,000
You know, it like maybe I think
because you were such a willing

595
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,760
participant in that, that first
show that you did the Diana Ross

596
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,600
one where you really did want to
learn from the experts coming

597
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,000
in, right?
And so so you were probably very

598
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,240
flexible and stuff.
But I would assume that back

599
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,200
then there was some attitude
being thrown around too by the

600
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,520
the band LD, who's like, you
know, I'm not going to let you

601
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,000
ruin my show like this, you
know?

602
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,840
I I did a lot of consulting jobs
in those days, like showed up as

603
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,880
the Greg Brunton TV consultant
person.

604
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,840
Yeah, 'cause I was deemed to
know enough about it to protect

605
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,840
the product in that way.
They didn't say it that way, but

606
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,560
that's what they meant.
And there you would you would

607
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,400
meet L DS who did not want to
change a thing.

608
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,960
They thought the purpose of our
recording their show was to

609
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,440
faithfully reproduce what had
happened there.

610
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,560
And the problem was that the
cameras were so primitive that

611
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,040
they couldn't reproduce it.
It had to be adapted to the

612
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,560
limitations of the camera, the
contrast ratio and color

613
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,240
rendition and all that stuff, or
you just couldn't see it.

614
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,680
You know, this element would be
3 times too bright and that one

615
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,800
would be so dark, would
disappear and, and the Blues

616
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,640
would be so saturated that they
would tear and, and, and

617
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,400
pixelate.
And so I still think that I've

618
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,160
never done as good a job at at
coaching that as Greg Brunton

619
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,880
did for me the first time I met
him.

620
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:45,480
Really he was, he was smooth.
Oh man, he was good.

621
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,280
Well, I guess.
He just come in.

622
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,360
He made me want.
He made me want it.

623
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,600
Yeah, You know, that makes
sense.

624
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,160
That makes.
Sense he invited me into a new

625
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,000
world, yeah.
As opposed to coming in,

626
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,760
swinging a big stick around and
saying you will do as I tell you

627
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,120
to Mr. Brand.
Yeah, Yeah.

628
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360
He, he brought you on board with
him instead of, you know, just

629
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:12,840
taking over.
Yeah.

630
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,880
That makes a lot of sense.
So I mean, at this time when,

631
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,320
when you were doing, you know,
by the time you did David Bowie,

632
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,640
which as you said was four years
after the first one, did you at

633
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,480
some point just say I'm doing a
total pivot and I'm getting

634
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,960
completely out of touring and
this is my new gig?

635
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,240
No, it's interesting.
When when Cher and I were

636
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,720
working on the book, I was
looking for a quote from Joel

637
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,840
Gallon and I and I wrote him a
letter and pointed out that

638
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:47,360
since I said Joel, since you and
I met in 19, that that's my dog

639
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,600
Lulu.
Yeah.

640
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,840
I figured she she she sees a
squirrel.

641
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,240
I know your kids are grown so it
wasn't them so.

642
00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:00,080
So, so I say to Joel, I said,
look, when you and I started, I

643
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:07,120
was doing 80% tours and 20%
television and and over the next

644
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:13,200
15 or 20 years those ratios did
this right.

645
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:20,800
And I would be interested in
your thoughts on that which

646
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,040
which ended up in the book.
But what happened is that

647
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,280
basically I, I got invited to do
more and more television and I

648
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,160
found it interesting and
fulfilling.

649
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,200
And I think somewhere along in
there the, the perception in the

650
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,160
world was that he's ATV guy.
But it wasn't any decision I

651
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,840
made.
It just sort of evolved like.

652
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,320
That.
You know, and the last tour I

653
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,960
did was 1999.
Wow.

654
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,200
Well, you know, I'm here to tell
you that it's probably worked

655
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,600
out OK for you.
You know, I think, well, it

656
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,320
might have been good decisions
you made.

657
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,720
Somewhere along, although I, I
was talking to, I was talking to

658
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,560
Winky at Tate the other day
about doing a tour for somebody.

659
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,120
Yeah, it, it didn't pan out, but
I'd like to do one more really

660
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,160
at least.
Well, because I, I, I still know

661
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,080
how to do this, you know?
Yeah.

662
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,360
Well, and you know, the cool
thing is now, Alan, not that I'm

663
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,560
calling you an old guy or
anything, but a lot of the tours

664
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,480
for some of the older artists
now, like a lot of the classic

665
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,840
artists, you know, they're not
bus tours anymore.

666
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,840
So it's it's a whole lot easier.
You fly in, you go to your

667
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,480
hotel.
Here's the thing too, that

668
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:44,640
they're all so, so much based on
video screens that I feel like

669
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:50,520
I'd be really comfortable and
effective creating powerful

670
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,280
images in that in that sort of
setup.

671
00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:00,120
Yeah, interesting.
Well, my my guess is that if the

672
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,760
universe understands that Mister
Branton wants to do another

673
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,520
tour, Mr. Branton is probably
going to do a pretty major tour

674
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,040
here coming up awful soon.
So, yeah, I mean, again, like,

675
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,400
I, I think it's so cool that
that artists in their 70s and

676
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,440
80s are still touring right now
and they've just made it a

677
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,440
little easier.
You know, like this Rush 50

678
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,320
something tour.
I was talking to Howard and

679
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,720
every single city is multiple
shows and, you know, there's no

680
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:34,040
buses and, you know, so you're
in LA for five days, then you go

681
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,520
to somewhere else and you're
there for four days and then you

682
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,560
go somewhere else and you're
there for five days and you know

683
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,000
it.
That's that's like a series of,

684
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,800
you know, residencies, you know,
like it's, it's just easier.

685
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:52,600
That whole world has changed.
See, when when I was touring,

686
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:58,800
people toured to promote their
record and they had a record out

687
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,560
or even in the beginning it was
probably vinyl, you know, And

688
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,880
then come comes cassettes and
CDs and all that.

689
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,160
They have a record out and
that's that's the heart of their

690
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,720
income.
Yeah, you lose money on touring.

691
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,400
And, and quite often they would.
Yeah.

692
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,920
And then now all that's flipped
where they make all their money

693
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,680
and.
And what back in the day we

694
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,760
quaintly called personal
appearances.

695
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:31,600
Yeah.
And so the shows of have to be

696
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,760
worth the money they charge for
them.

697
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,080
Jesus.
Yeah.

698
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:42,600
I was looking at my old files
the other day and there was a

699
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,120
there was I saw that the tickets
for the Paul McCartney show that

700
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:54,320
I advanced in 1976.
The ticket price was $8.50.

701
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,120
Jesus, wow, it ain't that now.
Yeah.

702
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,960
It ain't that now.
Yeah.

703
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,600
You know what's going on with
ticketing and especially the

704
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,560
secondary market.
Well, it's funny because I had

705
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,480
a, there's an alternate
ticketing guy out there that I

706
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,400
had on my podcast, I don't know,
a month ago or something.

707
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,320
Really interesting guy.
And most of what he does is

708
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,760
electronic stuff, electronic
music festivals or sort of fancy

709
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,840
raves and stuff.
And he does all the ticketing

710
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,560
for those events.
And because I said you're a bit

711
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,720
of a masochist going in business
against, you know, Live Nation,

712
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,960
who own pretty much 360° of
everything, the venue, the

713
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,320
artist, the, the ticketing, the,
you know, merch, everything.

714
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,120
And but we were talking about
this and we went through some

715
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,400
statistics and one of the things
I didn't know, like Taylor

716
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,320
Swift, for example, the most
expensive ticket, I believe was

717
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,280
like $475 face value.
And that was for the floor

718
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,440
seats, which ultimately sold for
about 10 grand.

719
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,920
And the cheapest ticket, I think
was like 79 bucks or something,

720
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,360
which no one paid, you know,
because they put them up for

721
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,480
sale.
And then there's thousands of

722
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,080
bots that just go in and buy all
the tickets and they're all

723
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,000
gone, you know, like snap of a
finger and they're all gone.

724
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,360
And so, yeah, it's, it's a wacky
world.

725
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:21,600
They got to do something about
that.

726
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,680
Because, you know, I first of
all, having just billionaires

727
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,360
kids or billionaires themselves
in all of those seats really

728
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,280
makes shows boring.
And, you know, the fans at some

729
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,920
point, you know, rebel against
it.

730
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,760
I think, you know, I I just
think there's a there's a push

731
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,880
back from all of this that's
going to happen.

732
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,240
And, you know, I can't believe
what people are asked to pay for

733
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:50,760
tickets these days.
And yeah, it's frightening.

734
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,160
So.
But Sir Paul can charge it for

735
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,800
sure because he's a beetle.
I.

736
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:06,280
I should try to see more of
those shows I I don't they're

737
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,280
not as handy.
To me where I live and I don't

738
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,280
make.
The effort Taylor didn't come to

739
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,160
Bozeman now.
Actually, I was talking to some

740
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:15,720
friends.
About I was talking to Brad

741
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:19,920
Hayford and Steve Cohen last
summer about going to see

742
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,800
Metallica.
Yeah, who who I consider to be

743
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:31,680
the second best band in the
world still working and and I

744
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:37,360
just love you too.
How about and I just love seeing

745
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,160
them.
They're the It's just so.

746
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,560
It's just so.
Perfect.

747
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,040
I saw it last summer in in
Edmonton.

748
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:48,840
I was up in Canada so I went and
saw it in Edmonton.

749
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,280
Really cool show.
I was never a fan either but God

750
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,960
they put on a show I was.
I was never a fan of either one

751
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,520
of them until I saw.
Them yeah, and.

752
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,800
And then I was just stunned at
how powerful it is.

753
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,920
Yeah, yeah, it's a.
Good way to describe Metallica

754
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,480
cause.
I was down on the ground right

755
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,960
in front of these God knows how
many massive Subs that are

756
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,760
buried underneath that stage,
and it felt like whatever's left

757
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,040
of my hair was being blown off
of my head at that point, you

758
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:23,880
know, it felt like I'd never
hear or feel anything again.

759
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:31,120
It was wild so.
So.

760
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,200
Going back to this.
Transition because it's, it's

761
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,640
just remarkable and interesting
to me.

762
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,600
Where do you get the energy for
a televised live performance

763
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,920
that you would get from being
live in that audience?

764
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,440
Like how do you how do you
reproduce that energy to where

765
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,320
people are watching it, whether
it's a big screen or a small

766
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:59,200
screen or a phone screen and
they're feeling a similar like

767
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,920
excitement or whatever you want
to call that?

768
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:08,040
Well, let's see.
I'll take a crack at this this

769
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:15,080
this method has evolved over a
long period of time, but step

770
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,720
one, one of the things.
That's true.

771
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,600
Is that?
Television is a close up medium

772
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,800
right?
So when you televise a show,

773
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:28,760
well over.
Half the shots are.

774
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,440
Going to be close.
Ups of the various performers,

775
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,840
depending on if it's a single
artist or it's a group or

776
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,640
whatever they're they're going
to be like I've done a bunch of

777
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,920
shoots with U2.
Let's compare the two.

778
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,720
Say, so you do a shoot with U2
and you decide and I think I

779
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:51,760
think this was this sort of
goes.

780
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,760
Back to to.
Seeing The Beatles, right, these

781
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:01,680
four people are equal
philosophically.

782
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,000
They weigh them.
They weigh the same amount in

783
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,200
the hearts of the audience, even
though Bono is kind of the

784
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:15,560
leader because he's the singer
in a television context, all

785
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,960
four of them are equally
interesting to look at.

786
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:25,000
And so you, you like those
close-ups so that they're really

787
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,800
flattering and, and, and
attractive.

788
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,440
And then you arrange the
lighting that's in the

789
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:37,840
background to be absolutely
outrageous and crazy, but and

790
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,520
and appropriate to the moment,
whatever the song is, but you

791
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,640
physically focus it and
position.

792
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,280
It.
Relative to the cameras so that

793
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,160
it it, it pushes energy into the
picture, but it doesn't spoil

794
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,440
the close up.
So, so you're physically, you're

795
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,320
physically keeping.
Those.

796
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:04,280
Two activities separate, but the
camera sees them as the same.

797
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:06,840
Interesting.
So it's just it's it's.

798
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:07,800
Layering.
Really.

799
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,200
Yeah, right.
And, and I, I kind of came

800
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,600
across this 25 years or so.
Ago I was.

801
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,880
I had a really, really crazy,
outrageous programmer on working

802
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,760
on some shows and and he
couldn't take much coaching

803
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,000
about.
Pictures and close up keeping.

804
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,880
From spoiling the close-ups and
all that stuff.

805
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:41,800
So I basically said, well, the
way to to to to address this is

806
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,800
arrange the lights so that no
matter what he does with them,

807
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,120
they can't spoil this person's
face.

808
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,960
I just layer it behind.
And tell him to.

809
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,400
Go for it.
But he can't get at that face

810
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,160
with any of those life because
they're, they're too far out

811
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:02,200
there.
It's just a layering thing.

812
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,200
And then so so so that really
worked and I started developing

813
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:13,520
that notion and refining.
It and see now and.

814
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,400
Today I have on most of my
shows, I have the best

815
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,560
programmer in the world, Felix
Peralta, and he understands

816
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:28,720
television as well as I do.
And so we we do that layering

817
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:35,560
thing that I described, but in a
much more sophisticated way and

818
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:42,200
and we can take more.
Risks because.

819
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,960
We can even trash a close up.
We can trash it terribly.

820
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:52,480
But Felix understands by the
time I by the time they really

821
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,240
come to the close up on
television, I'm going to get

822
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:57,400
clear.
But when I see it from a

823
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,960
distance, I'm going to look like
I'm going to have it look like

824
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,120
this person is melting down, for
example.

825
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:09,040
Then when the close up comes and
and all that is is, you know,

826
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:16,920
just a decision tree about
what's the director going to see

827
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,000
at a given.
Time and what?

828
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,360
Are the music dictated?
Is this, is this getting at it

829
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:22,840
at all or?
Yeah, no.

830
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,880
But is this all your own show
or?

831
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:30,000
Is this also considered the same
basic function if you're

832
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,400
layering on top of the band's
LD, for example?

833
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,320
Oh yeah, do you do the same
thing?

834
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,240
Really.
You do the same thing like we

835
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:43,200
did.
I probably did 40.

836
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,280
Or fifty of those consultant.
Things back in the day I haven't

837
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,640
done.
I just did one the other day.

838
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:56,920
But the So what you would do is
you'd go through Q by Qi did a

839
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,200
bunch of these with Willie
Williams and did a bunch of them

840
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:06,280
with Peter Morris.
And probably I worked with them

841
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,360
more than anyone and we just go
through a queue by.

842
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,200
Queue and say OK.
The close up is being spoiled in

843
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,240
this section of the show by
those lights.

844
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,720
Let's just turn them off.
Turn them off.

845
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:30,240
Re record the queue the the face
of my person.

846
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,560
You know, Christina Aguilera,
for example, I did with Peter.

847
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:39,760
Her face is clean now.
Yeah, and just basically go

848
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,480
through and and comb the
problems out of it.

849
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:46,920
Interesting.
And if you.

850
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,040
Don't have much time?
You might.

851
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:53,040
Just look at the lights.
That are that are doing mischief

852
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:59,800
and just go through and refocus
them someplace else and because

853
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:06,200
everything's you know.
Program now nobody's doing

854
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:08,080
anything.
Nobody's winging it, really.

855
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,680
What about, you know, I asked.
Like, touring LDS?

856
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:11,440
This.
A lot.

857
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,840
And and it's something I've
always been curious about.

858
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,920
Like do you ever design to the
small screen?

859
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,760
Well, they should.
And they're and they're going to

860
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,160
do it.
More and more I think, because

861
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,120
any show of any level of
importance is going to have a

862
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,840
video component.
Well, and there's there's 20,000

863
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,960
people in the audience.
But there's millions that by

864
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,520
tomorrow we're going to see this
thing on YouTube and the camera

865
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,840
is so good now we don't.
Have to ruin it for the people

866
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,040
in the audience anymore either.
Yeah, really.

867
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,960
Because the.
Cameras can see the audience

868
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,520
being excited without too much
light on them.

869
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:59,400
Really one of the things that
we've developed in the last 10

870
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,880
or 15 years is, is we basically
turn the lighting design

871
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,480
approach upside down.
We build the picture right from

872
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,760
the ground up.
So the most interesting part of

873
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:19,840
the lighting statement is from
the from the deck up to about 12

874
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:23,600
feet, because that's where the
that's where the performers are

875
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,200
and that's the background that
the cameras see.

876
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,280
And that's sort of
counterintuitive to where we all

877
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,680
started many years ago where
your light rig was this thing

878
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,880
that was 30 feet in the air and
there was nothing on the ground.

879
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:45,840
And so and then when you get
into a television.

880
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,240
Situation that the the.
Background is nothing.

881
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,440
It's just blah unless there's
scenery.

882
00:59:54,680 --> 01:00:01,440
So, so we we've kind of flipped
it inverted that in, in recent

883
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:06,200
years and it's it's, you know,
it's just.

884
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,440
Better television, but to the
people at home.

885
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,400
I think it looks like an
authentic rock show.

886
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:16,280
It doesn't look like.
Yeah, you know, Yeah, so.

887
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,280
You know.
You've worked.

888
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,960
On so many.
Television specials, you know,

889
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,160
all the MTV Unplugged stuff.
I think virtually all of it,

890
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,480
right?
Like for about the 1st 10 or 15

891
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:31,600
years?
I haven't done one in a.

892
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,960
Long time, but but but the sort
of as it was sort of growing.

893
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:43,120
Yeah.
Interestingly, 2 fun stories we

894
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,280
Eric Clapton 1 and my memory is
the one that was the sort of

895
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,280
breakthrough for that, for that
brand.

896
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:57,160
Yeah, 'cause that we went to
London and shot that in a sound

897
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,400
stage, the name of which I
forget.

898
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:06,560
It's out by Heathrow and and we
were all jet.

899
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,560
Lagged and exhausted and.
And it was just, it was really

900
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:16,320
hard and I don't, I don't think
that I had done, I might have

901
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,760
done one or two.
Others with lesser names.

902
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,720
At that point.
And so the word comes down later

903
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:29,480
on that he hated it and wanted
and didn't want to see it

904
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,800
released.
He didn't like it.

905
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,280
He didn't like the way he
looked.

906
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:34,520
He didn't like the way he
sounded.

907
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,400
He didn't mainly sound with with
a musician of that caliber, you

908
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:44,600
know, And they and they ended up
convincing him to release it and

909
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,720
have it played on MTV and so
forth.

910
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,040
And it was the biggest record he
ever had.

911
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:51,400
Yeah.
I mean, it's amazing because

912
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:55,720
when I think of.
Of the song Layla, the only, the

913
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,400
only version in my head is that
is that one, you know, the MTV

914
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,080
Unplugged one like that to me is
what I hear right now if I

915
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:07,080
listen to that song and that
event is what?

916
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:12,560
Made all the other big stars
want to be on and unplugged

917
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,400
special.
What about the the Nirvana one

918
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,680
'cause that's.
Another sort of iconic one

919
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,200
that's a really big deal.
And I, I got to admit to you.

920
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,120
I've I've been meaning to go
back and and watch it.

921
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:26,640
Really.
You haven't watched it?

922
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,320
I haven't watched it.
They.

923
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:32,840
They've been showing them on.
On one of the streaming services

924
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,720
has been showing them recently
and I meant to go back and watch

925
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,320
it because I can't remember much
about it, to tell you the truth,

926
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,920
because that one was so amazing
too.

927
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,080
Like that was.
Just a really, really good one,

928
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:49,400
the Nirvana 1, And I wasn't a
fan at all at the time, but it

929
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,080
was just so good.
And obviously, you know, the way

930
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,840
that tragic events happened and
stuff, it was also quite

931
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,160
significant.
But so, you know, MTV Unplugged.

932
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,120
Sorry, were you going to say
something?

933
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,560
Well, I was going to one of
those stories, Joel Gallon

934
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,640
reminded.
Me of this the other day that he

935
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:12,040
he directed produced and or
directed those in those days and

936
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,320
he reminded me I'd forgotten
this to tell you the truth when

937
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:21,840
McCartney was going to do his
one we went to see him at his

938
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,760
farm in the UK.
We we flew all the way over

939
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:30,680
there to see him and he.
Came and he had a sort.

940
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,080
Of studio in a barn.
You know, like those guys do.

941
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,400
And he comes down there and he
says, this is what I'm thinking

942
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,000
of doing, tell me what you
think.

943
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,520
And he sat there and played the
entire thing alone on acoustic

944
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,880
guitar and sang it to the two of
us.

945
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,640
Oh my God, I'd have goosebumps.
The.

946
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,440
Entire time.
Oh man, that's wild.

947
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,640
And it's just there's a, I'm
going to do a little bit of a

948
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,680
digression here there.
There's a piece in our book

949
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:03,520
where Sharon talks about being a
lighting designer, being a

950
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,520
passport to see things that you
would never otherwise see.

951
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,240
Yeah.
And in that context, she talks

952
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:15,600
about doing a show in Ethiopia.
But Oh my goodness, The The but

953
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,040
being in a barn with with Paul
McCartney.

954
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,040
That's one of those passport
moments that could never.

955
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,240
Happen and it was not planned.
It would just suddenly we're

956
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,880
sitting there and here he comes.
Yeah, that is insane.

957
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:28,960
That is so.
Cool.

958
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,760
It's like, did you ever see the
Paul McCartney thing?

959
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,080
I don't remember which network
it was on, but where he's

960
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,680
sitting in the studio with my
mind just went blank.

961
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:39,040
The guy with the long.
Beard.

962
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:45,040
The producer Ruben, Rick Ruben,
he's sitting in a studio at the

963
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:47,800
console with Rick Rubin and
they're just going through every

964
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,640
Beatles mega hit and going,
well, what'd you do on that one?

965
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,400
And you know, they'd isolate
tracks and stuff and so

966
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,680
incredible.
That's one of the things that.

967
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:02,280
I intend to do that's kind of on
my bucket list is to sit down

968
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:08,040
sometime and spend a week or so
reviewing all The Beatles

969
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,440
material and all the coach.
That was the first.

970
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,280
For most of us of my generation,
that was the first moment that

971
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:18,840
we thought.
This.

972
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,960
Is really different than
anything.

973
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,520
I've ever seen and it's.
Still, it's still as good as

974
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,680
anything that's come after.
Yeah, man, go, go put on any

975
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,920
song and listen to it.
Yeah, it's it's, I was listening

976
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,200
to a couple the other day.
It's crazy how good that stuff

977
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:36,920
is.
Yeah.

978
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,200
The songs were just that good,
you know?

979
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,040
And and like you said, it was 4
different people and they were

980
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,760
all sort of, you know, you
wanted to like the same.

981
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,880
And yeah, they were, they were
kids.

982
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,080
They were.
Who was the oldest one?

983
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,000
George was oldest, right?
With his.

984
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:53,960
Yeah.
Ringo and Mork.

985
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:54,880
Ringo.
Oh, that's.

986
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,960
Right, that's right.
But they were like in.

987
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:02,440
Their 20s, Yeah, it's, it's
insane.

988
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,960
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's mind

989
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:07,600
blowing.
Though that that Paul McCartney

990
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,560
thing.
You were talking about, but

991
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:14,440
these so MTV unplugged, like all
the stuff you did, you know, to

992
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:20,960
me is just mind blowing.
I but you also got like you got

993
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,880
Emmys for stuff.
What what did you get Emmys for?

994
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,880
Well, I've only actually won. 2.
Emmys, I've been nominated 10

995
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,200
times, Yeah, but I only won
twice.

996
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:38,920
I we won for I got got nominated
for the first one in 19, 81 I

997
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:45,400
think for a Diana Ross special
on CBS and then the most recent

998
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,200
one was last year for rock and.
Roll Hall of Fame.

999
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,000
Induction and and but we have
the two we won were for, for

1000
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,480
Bette Midler, which I did with
Peter Morris and and, and the

1001
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,960
other one was for Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame 3 years ago.

1002
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,160
I think you've done all of those
as well, right?

1003
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,560
For a lot.
Of them, all of them, 20

1004
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:10,280
something years.
Wow.

1005
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,240
And super.
Bowls you got to throw.

1006
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,440
A couple Super Bowls in there, a
couple Super Bowls, I think the.

1007
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,320
I'd like to believe that we'd
still be doing Super Bowls, but

1008
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:28,600
we were part of the the team
that was connected with the

1009
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:34,560
wardrobe malfunction.
And and so we were everybody

1010
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:39,040
associated with that was kind of
blackballed from the.

1011
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,000
By the NFL.
After baby went out with the

1012
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:47,200
bathwater pretty much as they.
Say, yeah, yeah, which I get it,

1013
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,640
I guess like, I don't know, you
know, these big corporate

1014
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,280
people, that's what they do, you
know, that's how they shelter

1015
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:57,600
themselves from the problems is
OK, we've taken care of it.

1016
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:02,680
We fired everyone, you know, but
yeah, well, who knows that

1017
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:08,560
That's a very.
Fun and interesting job to do.

1018
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:16,960
In fact, Sharon, my.
Co-author in the book, that's

1019
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,359
how.
We started talking about, we

1020
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:22,680
started talking about a Super
Bowl, and that's how we came to

1021
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,880
write the book.
We, she and I were speaking and

1022
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,319
it was during COVID and she was
teaching at the University of

1023
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:33,160
Cincinnati.
And she said, I, I would you

1024
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,359
like to speak to my students
because we're doing all this as

1025
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:38,520
a Zoom thing because nobody can
be in class.

1026
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:45,279
And they were curious about how
do you do a Super Bowl halftime.

1027
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,120
And I started describing it to
her and she was pretty

1028
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:53,479
interested and surprised at some
of it.

1029
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:59,880
So I spoke to her class for
three semesters, I think during

1030
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:04,399
COVID and at the.
End of the third one, she said.

1031
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:13,000
I think this is a textbook and
what we tried to do in the book

1032
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:17,720
is to cover the parts of doing
this work and this is relevant

1033
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,880
to some of your questions
covering the the aspect.

1034
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:26,439
Of doing this.
Work that is not just lighting

1035
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:32,840
theory and what looks good and
why and and in the the craft, if

1036
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:40,680
you will, we tried to approach
what is it like if I want to.

1037
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:44,279
Do this for a living.
What am I going to?

1038
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:50,439
How do I know that I can go to
some of these circumstances that

1039
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,720
the client is going to invite me
to and how do I be effective out

1040
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:56,160
there?
How do I, how do I ensure that I

1041
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:59,520
can deliver?
Because a lot of these shows

1042
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,320
that are not in a proper theater
are in all kinds of insane

1043
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:12,320
places with not enough time and
all sorts of problems that you

1044
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:18,320
have to solve and, and you can't
find that knowledge in most of

1045
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,880
the schools.
They won't, they will talk about

1046
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:25,080
how to light a Broadway play.
And that's really important as

1047
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:28,440
far as I'm concerned, Broadway
play as the gold standard of

1048
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:33,360
entertainment in America, just
in terms of how impeccable and

1049
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,520
perfect it is.
But if you do this.

1050
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:37,960
For a living that isn't where
you're going to.

1051
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,960
Be yeah, I was going to say that
yeah, yeah, but it.

1052
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,080
Is it still appropriate?
I guess though, that that's what

1053
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,880
we teach in school Is, is
everything's a theatre.

1054
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:51,360
I, I.
Think.

1055
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,840
Sharon could probably.
Answer that better than I can

1056
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,200
because.
She's a, she has a background

1057
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,160
somewhat similar to mine and
she's also an educator and

1058
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,720
college professor.
I think that the that the

1059
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:09,880
infrastructure that's been laid
down with the physical plants

1060
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,360
and the colleges and the high
schools and all that are based

1061
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:21,840
on theater and that's why our
book title.

1062
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:26,680
Is what it is lighting design?
Beyond Theater and I I don't

1063
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,320
think it's inappropriate to
teach that, but I think there's

1064
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:37,520
more that you will need to know
if you're going to like some of

1065
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,000
the special events and or TV
productions or whatever that.

1066
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:42,680
Well, yeah.
And then there's there's also

1067
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,440
the practical side.
Of it all because, you know,

1068
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,840
without sounding like a jerk,
you know, if you come out of

1069
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,520
school, you're going to quickly
realize that the least amount of

1070
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,800
money you can make is working in
a theatre.

1071
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:58,520
And if you want to really make a
living from it, you're probably

1072
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,520
going to want to, you know,
light shows or events or

1073
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:06,280
industrial, you know, corporate
theatre or whatever you want to

1074
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:11,080
call it.
You know, it's probably fair.

1075
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:19,280
To assert that nobody in
education is doing anything

1076
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,360
wrong insofar as they understand
it.

1077
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,520
But you know, going back to our
conversation in the very

1078
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,040
beginning.
This.

1079
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:34,360
Whole new world of of
entertainment that happens in

1080
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,680
larger places and all over the
place and in all sorts of wild

1081
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,720
and different circumstances that
to to quote, share and that is

1082
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:46,880
all evolved in one lifetime and
so so.

1083
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,280
The.
And it's probably only in the

1084
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:56,000
last 10 years that the that the
technology is such that you

1085
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:01,200
could do something like a Taylor
Swift show in stadiums all over

1086
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:03,240
the world.
And no matter how much money you

1087
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:07,640
threw at it, you can do it and
expect it to be to work

1088
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,840
correctly all the time.
That's that's new.

1089
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,760
This is a really, really, I
don't even want know what you

1090
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,440
call this business.
I kind of call it special

1091
01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:23,280
events, but it's really an
immature creature compared to

1092
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:32,840
theater or film or even TV.
So I think it's not fair to

1093
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:37,720
expect it to be fully formed and
perfectly staffed and have all

1094
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:40,320
these people trained to operate
in it.

1095
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:43,880
Yeah, but we're going to have to
go there.

1096
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,680
Yeah.
Well, it just seems like that's.

1097
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,280
Where the majority?
Of the opportunities are, you

1098
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:54,520
know, theater is obviously still
extremely important, but it's

1099
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,160
not growing at the rate that,
you know, the, the live, you

1100
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:03,960
know, music or, or whatever.
It's just the economics, right?

1101
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,520
Yeah.
One, one of my mentors told me a

1102
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,400
story about, I think he was
associated with one of the folk

1103
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:16,040
art folk artists in the mid 60s.
And he said they booked a gig at

1104
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:21,160
the, at the theater in Berkeley
and, and they had a, a hit

1105
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:22,920
record in the top ten at that
time.

1106
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:28,760
And so they sold a second show
and the demand was still so

1107
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:34,040
insane that they, and they
couldn't stay another day or

1108
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:35,920
come a day early because of
their itinerary.

1109
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:41,320
They said well what if we move
into the field House which seats

1110
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,240
10,000?
Instead of the.

1111
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:51,360
Theater which seats 1200, you
know, and somebody goes. 10,000

1112
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:56,000
tickets in one throw.
So, so that those kinds of

1113
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:00,600
decisions and and epiphanies
were happening all over the

1114
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:08,000
place as pop music started
attracting bigger audiences and

1115
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,560
that.
And here we are.

1116
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:13,480
Yeah, now everybody's.
But I think at the end of the

1117
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:14,880
day.
Most people like.

1118
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:20,360
I know for me, and I'm old, but
for me, if I want to go see like

1119
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,960
if Led Zeppelin was going to
play more shows or whatever, I'd

1120
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:31,360
rather see them in, you know, a
5000 seat theater than a 20,000

1121
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:37,040
seat hockey arena or certainly
much more than in a 75,000 seat

1122
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,960
stadium.
You know, personally, I

1123
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,400
understand the economics.
I understand how it makes a lot

1124
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,760
of sense financially and all of
those things logistically even.

1125
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:51,440
But I'm not a fan of stadium
shows, you know, I just, I don't

1126
01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:56,480
want to see bands in stadiums,
you know, personally, Me neither

1127
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,680
because, because I, I don't.
Want to, I don't want to deal

1128
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:02,680
with having to get in there.
Yeah, that you know, but.

1129
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:09,520
But here's the thing though.
You and I would rather see them.

1130
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:13,760
You know, in a smaller place,
obviously, But the thing that's

1131
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,840
interesting is that the
technology has now caught up

1132
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:20,800
with the economics, right?
Yeah, We did ATV shoot the other

1133
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:25,840
day.
Well, about a year ago now in a

1134
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:30,400
Chicago arena with a stand up
comedian, one man telling jokes.

1135
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,000
Yeah.
And.

1136
01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:39,200
And the setup.
Was a stage in the center with

1137
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,640
three big video.
Screens above it.

1138
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:46,800
On a triangle configuration
right and and four or five

1139
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,120
cameras, you know, looking at
him from various angles and so

1140
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:56,080
the the the directing of the.
Video.

1141
01:16:56,080 --> 01:17:00,320
Screens was so effective and so
much In Sync with his

1142
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:03,560
performance that the person in
the top of the arena who was

1143
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:07,360
looking straight at that big
screen with the with the face 30

1144
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:12,680
feet high, he the joke paid off
better for him up up there than

1145
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:14,840
it did for the people in the
15th row.

1146
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:20,040
You could it, it was a that
became a really, really good

1147
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,360
seat because of the way the
whole thing was designed.

1148
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:28,200
And so that that kind of that
kind of turned my head around a

1149
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,680
little bit because I've seen
these screens for years and you

1150
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:35,200
have two and you see them used
so ineffectively and stupidly.

1151
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:41,080
But I saw that and I thought
that is that is good.

1152
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:44,000
That's good for the, that's good
for his bottom line, and it's

1153
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,640
really good for the audience.
That's a good seat up there.

1154
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:51,360
Yeah, it's imag done well.
Yeah, and the triangle

1155
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:54,080
configuration and stuff sounds
like it was very cool as well.

1156
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,040
But I never forget something
that Mark Brickman said on my

1157
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,640
podcast once he said, you know,
I went and saw the Stones, you

1158
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:04,240
know, that whichever tour it was
recently with the like the

1159
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:08,120
iPhones, basically the, the
screens that looked like 4

1160
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:13,560
iPhones and he said that those
screens.

1161
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,280
Were cool.
But there was a problem.

1162
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,520
And I said, oh, what, They
weren't working right or

1163
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:20,840
whatever.
And he said no.

1164
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,480
The screens made Mick Jagger
look small.

1165
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,320
And you know you.
Can't make Mick.

1166
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:32,000
Jagger look small and I
understood what he said.

1167
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,480
But at the same time, I mean,
when it's in a stadium, you're

1168
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:40,160
just trying to, I think you're
just trying to fill people's

1169
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:42,840
eyes with so much stuff going on
or whatever.

1170
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:44,960
I don't know.
Like for me, it just doesn't

1171
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:46,280
work.
I don't like stadium shows.

1172
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,840
I didn't see it so I can't mean
say for sure.

1173
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:54,280
But, but I I do know that one of
the really big problems with

1174
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:58,000
that whole iMac thing really in
the beginning now people are

1175
01:18:58,000 --> 01:18:59,720
doing a much better job of it
now.

1176
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:05,040
But but the problem with it was
in the beginning that the people

1177
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:10,680
directing it wanted to direct it
like it was ATV show yeah right

1178
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:12,840
instead of true iMac.
And So what would?

1179
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:19,240
Happen is that you would end up.
Seeing about 1/3.

1180
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:23,320
Of the time you'd see the image
of somebody on the screen,

1181
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,320
whoever the future performer was
that was the same size as the

1182
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:28,480
live person on the stage.
And I'm thinking, how did that

1183
01:19:28,480 --> 01:19:31,360
help me?
Yeah, yeah.

1184
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:34,280
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
What a.

1185
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:35,560
What a.
You know.

1186
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:39,800
Completely common sense comment
to make, you know, Well, yeah,

1187
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:41,840
yeah.
And a lot of these things are.

1188
01:19:42,440 --> 01:19:44,760
Common sense, yeah, I think.
Yeah.

1189
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:52,160
The I.
I I did a little consulting with

1190
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,800
with Willie Williams when
YouTube played the sphere just

1191
01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,160
in how how I'd like the
close-ups and.

1192
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:09,400
He is really, really wise in the
use of all this stuff.

1193
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:14,640
You know, they put up, they had
some wonderful video material

1194
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:18,160
that they played here and there
and they had, and they'd use

1195
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:23,680
imag really pretty much they,
they used some head to toe

1196
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:28,080
images, but they'd be 30 feet
high, you know, or they'd use

1197
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:31,480
just faces.
And a great deal of the time

1198
01:20:31,480 --> 01:20:35,280
they didn't use any imag at all.
They did other things.

1199
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:41,440
And then in the, in this sort of
middle section of the show, the

1200
01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:47,920
screens were turned off.
You just saw the band on the

1201
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:54,440
stage and that's it.
And, and they would, it was

1202
01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:57,840
really brave.
And they would do a series of,

1203
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,600
you know, 5 or 6 songs, I forget
how many, that were the ones

1204
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:04,240
that historically in their
repertoire, they knew that the

1205
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:09,840
audience would be emotionally,
you know, empowered.

1206
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:14,840
By and sing along.
And you know, Bono would, you

1207
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,480
know, an example of this song?
All I need is you.

1208
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:24,480
And he would sing a lyric and
then he would hold the mic up to

1209
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,920
to the crowd and they would sing
back at him.

1210
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:36,400
All I need is you loud and see.
Turning the screens off and

1211
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:41,680
letting that happen.
That's that's wisdom.

1212
01:21:42,480 --> 01:21:45,240
Well, that's, yeah, that's an
artist and A and a creative.

1213
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,440
Team who who know their
audience, who really, really

1214
01:21:48,440 --> 01:21:51,080
intimately know what their
audience wants.

1215
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:55,000
Yeah, I like that.
So again, that's another one of

1216
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,200
those passport.
Things where I thank God.

1217
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:01,040
I'm really glad I saw that.
Yeah, yeah, really glad I

1218
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,120
struggled.
With it like I wasn't there.

1219
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:07,160
And and so admittedly I was not
there, but when people sent me

1220
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:12,480
video or I saw video online of
the U2 sphere thing, I really

1221
01:22:12,480 --> 01:22:14,480
struggled to find.
Bono.

1222
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:16,880
Like, like I'm going, where is
Bono?

1223
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:18,840
Like I'm looking everywhere on
this video.

1224
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:22,200
And it took me forever to find
this little guy on a stage down

1225
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:24,000
at the bottom.
I think you kind of you kind of

1226
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,640
had to be there.
You know, yeah, that's what

1227
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:27,800
everyone said.
They said it was.

1228
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:30,680
Mind blowing the the film they
made of it was a was a

1229
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:36,120
commercial.
Venture I I surmise.

1230
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:41,520
Yeah, but.
That was.

1231
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:45,040
That was a that was very
courageous for them to be first.

1232
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:48,360
Yeah, yeah, no.
And it obviously was a massive.

1233
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:54,640
Success so good on them 60 shows
yeah that's just wild it's wild.

1234
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:58,120
Do you think the the whole
sphere thing is going to

1235
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,800
continue to succeed?
Is it going to be a big deal or

1236
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:05,480
is it just going to wear its
welcome out and become, I don't

1237
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:07,800
know, to be fair, I haven't
seen.

1238
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:09,640
Any other shows that have
happened in there?

1239
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:15,920
Yeah.
And I'm vaguely aware just

1240
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:19,680
through rumor that the thing
cost a fortune to build well

1241
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:23,520
beyond what was estimated.
And so, you know, it becomes a

1242
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:27,280
it becomes kind of a financial
venture at that point.

1243
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:30,480
Can you 2 1/2 billion dollars or
something I heard.

1244
01:23:30,480 --> 01:23:33,720
More.
But that's.

1245
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,200
That's sort of out of my.
Realm, Yeah, yeah, you know,

1246
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:37,320
that's.
Somebody else's gig.

1247
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:42,320
Yeah, but Vegas is the perfect
place for it.

1248
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:46,240
You know, 'cause there's, you
can always, you can always put

1249
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,760
that number of people in there.
Yeah, there's always they're

1250
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:51,480
they're in town.
All the time, yeah.

1251
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:53,920
Yeah, well, and you know, people
are.

1252
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:56,920
Looking for something to do.
So as long as you put artists in

1253
01:23:56,920 --> 01:24:00,760
there that are capable of
putting bums in seats, as they

1254
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,880
say, you know, I think you're
going to, you're going to do OK.

1255
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:09,120
And The thing is, even just with
like weird EDM content and

1256
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,600
stuff, I think the place is
viable, you know, like so even

1257
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,600
if they get tired of putting
bands in there or something, I

1258
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:18,960
think they can find other uses
and, and keep it busy.

1259
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:23,280
I just don't know if financially
it's going to be wildly

1260
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:26,440
successful unless you're
charging 1000 bucks for a ticket

1261
01:24:26,440 --> 01:24:30,600
or something.
We, we spoke very briefly

1262
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:35,480
earlier about technology and,
and how happy you are, how you

1263
01:24:35,480 --> 01:24:39,600
know, seeing technology now that
actually is reliable, especially

1264
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,960
automated lighting technology.
And believe me, I was also there

1265
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,520
when it wasn't reliable.
I worked for Martin in the early

1266
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:49,880
days with the pals and and
etcetera.

1267
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:56,640
And you know, they were always a
little bit innovative, but you

1268
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,680
know, tended to be broken quite
often.

1269
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,480
So, you know, first I would
start with like you've, you've

1270
01:25:04,480 --> 01:25:08,120
witnessed obviously a few
decades of, of lighting

1271
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,960
technology, evolution in
lighting technology.

1272
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:16,400
And you know, outside of just
going from fixed position

1273
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:21,040
stationary lights to to moving
lights, you know, what are what

1274
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:24,720
are some of the most significant
changes that you've seen or

1275
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:26,680
evolutions that you've seen in
lighting?

1276
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:38,400
Well, let me think a second
here.

1277
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:44,440
Let me just sort of reflect,
yeah, if you will.

1278
01:25:44,440 --> 01:25:46,640
And maybe this will of course
become, maybe this will turn

1279
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:51,120
into an answer.
So if you if you, if I.

1280
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:56,000
Get the 1st.
Batch of of I'm petting the.

1281
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,480
Cat You.
Get the first batch of the old

1282
01:25:59,480 --> 01:26:04,280
ones and they are it's, it's
thrilling.

1283
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,720
Really, it's just thrilling what
that stuff can do.

1284
01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:13,080
But you, you start to realize
it, it, it's incredibly

1285
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:17,160
limiting.
It will do a few good things and

1286
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:21,360
that's all.
And it breaks all the time, so

1287
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:26,920
it's better.
So we use that as a kind of as a

1288
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:30,720
toy.
That's that's that's.

1289
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:36,320
A little bit unkind, not as.
A toy, but as a special, right?

1290
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,800
We use it as a special.
We'd use it in in the Diana Ross

1291
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:42,240
show that I started using it
with and then later I used it

1292
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:47,160
with, with Bowie and others.
You would, you would find places

1293
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,880
to move it.
You would find places to use the

1294
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:55,400
color colors that it would
produce, which were, which were

1295
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,960
way more interesting than the
color you could get out of an

1296
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:03,920
incandescent light with gel, you
know, just another palette all

1297
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,440
together.
And you could change them, you

1298
01:27:06,440 --> 01:27:12,200
know, And then we would use the
movement at times when, when,

1299
01:27:12,280 --> 01:27:14,080
when something in the music
called for movement.

1300
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:15,720
I didn't move them as much as
some people.

1301
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:20,480
And then they start to, you
know, you get into the and there

1302
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:26,320
was no, there was no time on
that console, you know, that it

1303
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:30,400
was just, it was just turning a
knob or moving a fader.

1304
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:35,880
So you couldn't record time.
You couldn't, you couldn't save

1305
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:40,080
the queues.
The queues were in the console.

1306
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,680
And there was.
No disk drive.

1307
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:45,280
So the thing was really
primitive.

1308
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:51,760
So you which limits your it
limits how much you want to rely

1309
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:57,200
on it because it's liable to
fail and screw you any minute,

1310
01:27:57,800 --> 01:27:59,960
right?
And at the same time, it's so

1311
01:27:59,960 --> 01:28:03,880
intoxicating that you, you know,
you go, you go for it.

1312
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:08,240
So then the Series 200.
Comes along in the three. 100

1313
01:28:08,480 --> 01:28:13,160
and then and then Martin start
to come in and and what that

1314
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:16,600
company in Texas high end, high
end and you know and then.

1315
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:20,200
And I love.
The the color, what was the name

1316
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:21,240
of that wash light?
They have?

1317
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,000
Studio color.
Studio Color.

1318
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:24,840
I love that thing.
I love.

1319
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:28,120
That I love the color.
I love the the way you could

1320
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:32,040
could beam shaping, control the
beams and all that.

1321
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:33,560
It's love that thing.
Yeah.

1322
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:39,760
And but still it's it's none of
it is is reliable enough that

1323
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:45,360
you can risk.
Using it on the performers.

1324
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:51,560
Because if it fails or doesn't
do what you needed to do at any

1325
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:53,280
given moment, the show falls
apart.

1326
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:55,920
Yeah, your singer's in the dark.
And even if it.

1327
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:59,440
Works, yeah.
Even if it works, let's let's

1328
01:28:59,440 --> 01:29:04,800
say I've got 6 performers out
there that I want to do a a

1329
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:09,360
backlight on.
It's tricky because they don't

1330
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,680
match.
Yeah, because of lamp life and

1331
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:13,240
all this.
Stuff.

1332
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:15,280
None of it.
None of it looks the same from

1333
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:17,920
lamp to lamp to lamp.
It's really funky, you know?

1334
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:21,440
I remember I went to work for.
High end for a brief time and I

1335
01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:24,960
remember doing a show and I
believe it was, it might have

1336
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:29,120
been Greg Brunton, but I
remember doing a show.

1337
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:32,320
We didn't do the show.
The lights all came from Van Co

1338
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:36,560
or Bash or whoever it was, but
it was, it was like 2 or 300

1339
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:41,760
studio colors.
And it was for a, a talk show.

1340
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:49,240
Rosie O'Donnell at Universal, I
think in, in Orlando and, you

1341
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:53,120
know, on the outdoor stage.
And so I went there and I'm

1342
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:58,000
standing next to Greg and, and
he's, I don't remember, he was

1343
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:02,080
programming or something was
happening and he's looking at me

1344
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:03,440
and he's like, do you see what I
see?

1345
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:06,960
And I'm like, yeah, it looks
great, fantastic.

1346
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:10,760
And he goes, he goes, Marcel,
there's like 7 different color

1347
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:13,360
temperatures up there.
You know, I got, I got whatever

1348
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:16,320
it was 203 hundred lights with
seven different color

1349
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,960
temperatures that I can count.
And there's probably more than

1350
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:20,800
that.
What are we going to do about

1351
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:22,720
this?
And this was his first show, I

1352
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:27,160
think with studio colors.
And I was like and Long story

1353
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:31,520
short high end had to send in
like 300 brand new whatever the

1354
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:33,680
lamp was.
MSR 570 fives.

1355
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,000
I had the same experience with
Studio.

1356
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:41,080
Colors on a on a show where
where the I was using them on

1357
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:45,920
some white scenery and it was
really blatantly obvious how how

1358
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:47,400
poorly they all match each
other.

1359
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,680
And let's see you, you in
hindsight, you sympathize with

1360
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:57,800
the with the suppliers because,
you know, these lights are used

1361
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:01,160
all over the place and, and and
the lamps get changed at

1362
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:03,120
different times and have
different numbers of hours on

1363
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:04,400
them.
And what are you supposed to do?

1364
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,360
You know, you can't give
everybody new bulbs every time.

1365
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:10,520
Yeah.
Or, you know, so well, you can't

1366
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:13,000
charge for new bulbs every time.
That's well, right.

1367
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:15,240
Right.
Yeah, so, but see.

1368
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:21,600
Slowly but surely, all these
problems get addressed.

1369
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:30,680
Yeah, and now we use, I know I'm
kind of skipping about two

1370
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:37,040
decades, but we use we use a
fully automated system on on all

1371
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:39,120
our shows.
We're doing the Rocker Hall of

1372
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:42,560
Fame next week, see 8th of
November.

1373
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:48,560
And no time is wasted on shit
like that.

1374
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:53,480
Yeah, It, it's just, you know,
if, because most of it's even

1375
01:31:53,480 --> 01:31:57,160
LED now and, and if something
doesn't match something else,

1376
01:31:57,160 --> 01:32:01,120
you just get on the console and
match it, you know, and I.

1377
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:10,120
And so the if you read Rusty
Boucher's interview in my book,

1378
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:18,120
the vision that they had is now
real 50 years later or 40 or

1379
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:19,920
however much it is 20 years
later.

1380
01:32:20,440 --> 01:32:25,280
Yeah, because, because the the
the great story that they tell

1381
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:29,680
is that is that when they set
the first batch of 50 lights up

1382
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,160
in the shop after they got them
all going, the count console

1383
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:33,720
wasn't finished.
So they just had them on a

1384
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:39,440
laptop and they hooked them all
up to see, you know, to see if

1385
01:32:39,440 --> 01:32:41,800
that what, what what would
happen to see if they all worked

1386
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:46,440
and somebody turned a knob and
they all moved together.

1387
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:52,240
And he said nobody was expecting
that.

1388
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,600
We thought we were making a
light that you didn't have to

1389
01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:01,200
get on a ladder and touch it to
put the light where you wanted

1390
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:02,000
it to go.
It was just like a

1391
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,080
repositionable that that that's
what we.

1392
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:05,920
Thought we were doing and we
didn't have to buy.

1393
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:08,720
Gel and we didn't have to get on
a ladder and touch it and then

1394
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:12,760
when it moved we were all
surprised every.

1395
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:15,800
Man on every man that was there.
Was surprised, which is wild

1396
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:21,120
isn't it?
And we wasted the next 30 years

1397
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:27,960
moving them and calling that
enough, calling that good

1398
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:31,320
enough.
Yeah, I say.

1399
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:34,400
Yeah.
Yeah, it took a while.

1400
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:36,240
To take, you know, sort of a
leaps and.

1401
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:40,160
Bounds jump from that technology
score, and that's not to

1402
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:42,120
criticize anybody, it's just no
sort of the.

1403
01:33:42,120 --> 01:33:43,360
Way what?
What?

1404
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:47,560
What's the term for that?
It's like technological

1405
01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:51,680
determinism because it moves.
We're going to move it.

1406
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:53,640
Yeah.
You know, a lot.

1407
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:54,840
Yeah.
A.

1408
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:55,920
Lot all the.
Time.

1409
01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:57,960
Yeah, yeah.
It's like check off.

1410
01:33:58,120 --> 01:33:59,960
If the gun comes on stage, we
got to shoot.

1411
01:33:59,960 --> 01:34:04,160
It, you know, Yeah, true.
So.

1412
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:08,880
You know, did you like obviously
another shift and you've already

1413
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:10,920
talked about it is the shift to
LED.

1414
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:14,120
Did you struggle with that?
Obviously because of television,

1415
01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:17,480
because of the flicker and the
color and all of these things,

1416
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:23,320
for a little while we did.
And we, it was the same thing

1417
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:25,760
as, as with with the automated
lights in the beginning, you

1418
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:31,280
didn't use the LED fixtures for
anything that was fragile.

1419
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:35,440
You know, for, for, for quite a
while we never used them on the

1420
01:34:35,440 --> 01:34:39,200
actors would use them to paint
scenery or do this or do that.

1421
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:46,800
But but now we do because
they're so they're so reliable

1422
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,920
and, and stable.
Yeah.

1423
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:57,480
And you know, the power draws
down and the heat and all and

1424
01:34:57,480 --> 01:35:02,560
the noise, you know, Yeah.
I mean, God, I'd, I'd forgotten

1425
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:05,400
about that shit for the 1st 20
years or so.

1426
01:35:06,440 --> 01:35:09,680
You, you fire up a automated
lighting system with not very

1427
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:13,120
many lights, you know, 30 or 40
and it sounds like a jet taken

1428
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:14,960
off.
Yeah, doing the whole reset

1429
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:16,400
thing.
Oh God.

1430
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:18,720
It's all gotten so.
Much better.

1431
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,960
I mean, I tell that.
To young moving light sales guys

1432
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:24,480
today, which makes me sound even
older than I am.

1433
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:26,720
You know, you have it so good
today.

1434
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:29,080
You young guys, you know
everything works.

1435
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:32,120
Like you can buy American DJ
fixtures now and they work

1436
01:35:32,120 --> 01:35:34,600
great.
You know it.

1437
01:35:34,600 --> 01:35:38,480
It's wild.
It's wild so.

1438
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:41,880
You know, moving.
On here because I know I can't.

1439
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:46,600
Keep you all day.
But what if you look back, you

1440
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:50,200
know, and this is sort of a
stupid podcast question that

1441
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:53,920
everyone has to ask you, but
what, what's like one of your

1442
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:57,080
proudest moments, one of your
proudest projects?

1443
01:35:57,080 --> 01:36:02,000
What's like, if you had to put,
you know, the one thing up there

1444
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,320
that I did this, what would that
be?

1445
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:21,240
I would guess that.
That first David Bowie project,

1446
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:25,640
I think it.
Because if you go back and.

1447
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:29,600
Watch it, you see that the
cameras are crude and that it's

1448
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:34,800
not super high resolution, but
it holds up perfectly.

1449
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:43,800
And he was so.
Perfect.

1450
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:52,320
Every moment of that show and
and so the tour.

1451
01:36:52,320 --> 01:36:57,680
Was really great and the.
The the television special is

1452
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:03,960
really great and I I think that
it a.

1453
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:06,920
Lot of the touring jobs I got
after that people.

1454
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:10,160
Got in touch with me because
they.

1455
01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:14,600
Wanted something that good.
And and that was.

1456
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:16,320
And.
I was really frustrated for a

1457
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:19,240
long time because you could
never get it to be that good

1458
01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:21,640
again.
Because nobody's as good as him.

1459
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:24,480
Yeah, nobody's David Bowie
except David's as good as him.

1460
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:30,760
Yeah, and but.
In a larger context, I was

1461
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:38,280
really lucky in early on.
To work with.

1462
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,960
Those sorts of artists with.
With Diana.

1463
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:46,080
Ross and I did tour with the
Stones and Jagger and with Bowie

1464
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:56,320
2 tours and and even Ozzy I did
1 did 2 actually and and Whitney

1465
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:07,400
and you you start to have an
appreciation of the.

1466
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:14,040
Power that that one person.
Has to move that crowd and it's

1467
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:17,800
and if you're paying attention
and with people who are that

1468
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:23,080
that accomplished, it's hard to
miss it, you realize.

1469
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:28,960
They don't need.
Anything from me but they've.

1470
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:30,680
Got command of this puppy of
the.

1471
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:34,640
House lights are on, so if I
want my lighting to mean

1472
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:40,520
anything, I want to attach by
thinking to what they're doing

1473
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:44,040
and and how the audience is
receiving.

1474
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:46,040
It.
And so forth.

1475
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:51,600
I want to, I want to get on that
train, not try to do some sort

1476
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,320
of light show.
Yeah, you want to stay out of

1477
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:56,880
the way, Just frame the.
Artist and stay out.

1478
01:38:56,880 --> 01:38:59,680
Well, you, you want to.
You don't want to you.

1479
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:02,400
Want to stay out of the way, but
you want to be right there, you

1480
01:39:02,400 --> 01:39:06,360
know, and usually, often that's.
Counterintuitive.

1481
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,760
When the most powerful moments
happen, that's when you get out

1482
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:12,800
of the way.
You know, when she's going to

1483
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:15,920
nail something or he's going to
nail something, everything goes

1484
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,800
away and they're standing there
in one light, you know, and

1485
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:23,400
then, and then, so I'd say that
I forgot what your question was.

1486
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,840
Oh, the thing I'm most proud of.
I think I'm going to mangle your

1487
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:29,840
question a little bit.
I'm most proud of the fact that

1488
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:34,920
I figured that out early and
was.

1489
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:38,800
Lucky to be.
Exposed to people like that and

1490
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:44,640
I built my life around it.
You know, one of my mentors used

1491
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:48,880
to say light on the money Yeah.
Makes a.

1492
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:53,320
Lot of sense, yeah.
So you've been doing this a long

1493
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:57,800
time and 52 years.
What inspires?

1494
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:01,320
You How do you stay inspired?
On year 52.

1495
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:04,600
Oh, I just think it's a
wonderful.

1496
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:09,280
It's a it's a wonderful life.
Yeah.

1497
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:25,560
It's there's a.
The the presentations, whatever.

1498
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:31,120
They are would be a music or
whatever it is that's once out

1499
01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:32,760
of the coin and then the
audience comes in.

1500
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:39,520
The audience, the audience is is
comes with an open heart and

1501
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:45,240
they're expecting to be excited
and satisfied and that that's

1502
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:48,120
the same every time.
Every single time.

1503
01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:55,400
And it never grows old.
Watching that, yeah.

1504
01:40:55,400 --> 01:40:57,160
So, so many.
People say that kind of thing,

1505
01:40:57,160 --> 01:41:00,600
you know, like House.
House lights go or whatever, you

1506
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:04,320
know, it's like you get that
feeling every every night, every

1507
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:07,880
time the house lights go down,
you get that same feeling, which

1508
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:10,920
tells you, I got to keep doing
this, you know, I kind of like

1509
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:13,600
it, see, And we talked about the
artists and the music.

1510
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:16,080
And the But to see the audience
creates this too.

1511
01:41:16,240 --> 01:41:18,000
Yeah.
In fact, they may be more

1512
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:21,320
essential to it than than the
content.

1513
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:24,760
I mean, certainly there's
certainly you can't, you can't

1514
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:26,400
do without them.
Yeah.

1515
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:29,840
Yeah, Well, we've all been.
Involved in Really great.

1516
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:36,960
I guess shows or events with
with bad artists, but when it's

1517
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,360
a really bad audience, I think
it's a whole different

1518
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:42,760
experience at that point, right.
So which is kind of what you

1519
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:45,320
just said, you get those another
old.

1520
01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:48,560
Another old friend of mine used
to say that that audience looked

1521
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:53,200
like a painting.
Yeah, not what you want.

1522
01:41:54,560 --> 01:42:00,680
So your book Lighting Design
Beyond Theater, give me like one

1523
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:04,160
key take away or key insight
from that book.

1524
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:10,400
Actually, we were just there in
a way.

1525
01:42:10,440 --> 01:42:13,480
I'll give you 2.
The last chapter is called

1526
01:42:13,480 --> 01:42:17,640
Learning from the Audience and
in in the.

1527
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,920
Earlier in the book we've.
Talked about, you know, field

1528
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:24,520
craft and how to organize things
and how to think about it and

1529
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:34,120
and so forth but in the end you.
Learn more from from.

1530
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:37,400
Understanding who the audience
is for the particular thing

1531
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,960
you're working on than any other
question you can explore.

1532
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:45,680
Because if if you're if you try
to align yourself with where

1533
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:51,840
they are, I mean, it's just
common sense, you'll be more

1534
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:56,080
effective in whatever project
that is.

1535
01:42:56,360 --> 01:43:01,120
The other, the other chapter I
really like is about readiness.

1536
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:09,120
And I think that's probably the
the most important.

1537
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:13,640
Lesson I learned.
At a sort of technical

1538
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:18,760
organizational level is that
anytime I've been disappointed

1539
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:24,120
in the outcome of, of what I
got, it was because I wasn't

1540
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:32,800
ready or or prepared well enough
to do what was needed when the

1541
01:43:32,800 --> 01:43:37,840
time came.
And that's a, that's an acquired

1542
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:41,880
skill also.
And in fact.

1543
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:44,600
I suggest in that chapter.
That it, that's not something

1544
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:52,080
you could do by yourself.
In our current model, our prep

1545
01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:56,840
design build process involves
four or five people and and as

1546
01:43:56,840 --> 01:44:02,800
soon as the job is is known, we
get on a Zoom call or or a

1547
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,520
conference call together and
start talking about it right

1548
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:08,440
then.
We don't know much about it

1549
01:44:08,440 --> 01:44:11,760
other than the date and kind of
what the content is.

1550
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:15,800
We start talking about it right
then, you know, and

1551
01:44:17,480 --> 01:44:20,200
progressively decide.
What form it's going to?

1552
01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:25,280
Take and, and how it's going to
work and we invite the the

1553
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:29,760
vendor into those conversations
right from the start also so

1554
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:32,640
they can know what we're
thinking.

1555
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:38,440
And quite often and, and usually
it's Brad or or Alex Flores or

1556
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:42,160
one of his people and they'll
they'll say, OK, I see what

1557
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:46,320
you're thinking here, but I
can't, I can't do that for the

1558
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:51,280
money you have or I don't have
enough of those or that won't

1559
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:53,800
work the way you think it will
or something.

1560
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:59,160
And so by the time we have have
a load in, this thing is lit, we

1561
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:00,560
know what it's going to look
like now.

1562
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:04,880
Yeah, we know exactly what
everybody likes doing.

1563
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:06,720
We know where how we're going to
use it.

1564
01:45:07,160 --> 01:45:13,520
We've got you know, and so
that's how you get it to be

1565
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:19,480
really good as you are ready
when the talent comes on stage

1566
01:45:19,480 --> 01:45:23,200
to do it.
You know that that's such an

1567
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:25,080
important point in everything
like.

1568
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:28,880
Whether you're an athlete or a
like my son being a racing

1569
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:32,000
driver, you know when you go out
and race, like when bad things

1570
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:35,480
happen, you're prepared for it,
you know, and if you're not

1571
01:45:35,480 --> 01:45:38,760
prepared for it, bad things
happen, you know, like they end

1572
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:41,040
poorly.
But if you're prepared for it,

1573
01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:42,880
you know you can get through it
right?

1574
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:47,040
So to me, that's such an
important thing, preparation and

1575
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:52,480
and being ready, like you said,
it's everything, you know, I

1576
01:45:52,480 --> 01:45:54,040
mean, we're.
Going back to the equipment

1577
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:59,000
considerations, the fact that
all this equipment is really

1578
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:02,520
reliable now, and when we put
the lighting system in the air

1579
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:04,800
and turn it on, it's all working
and ready.

1580
01:46:05,320 --> 01:46:08,080
Yeah, we can aspire to do
things.

1581
01:46:08,080 --> 01:46:11,320
That we never could have.
Done 1520 years ago, 'cause we

1582
01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:13,640
we would turn it on and then
we'd start fixing it.

1583
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:16,600
Yeah, right.
And all that time is lost.

1584
01:46:17,040 --> 01:46:18,560
Yeah.
And like you talked about

1585
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:20,040
bringing the vendor on.
Early.

1586
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:23,200
Because you know, the other
thing about gear these days is

1587
01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:26,920
it's relatively ubiquitous.
You know you don't like back in

1588
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,080
the day, if you designed a show
around a VL 5, you needed VL

1589
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:31,000
fives.
That's it.

1590
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:37,120
That's all there was but today
you need AX lumen wash light

1591
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:41,440
with these features and that
could be a Chauvet, A robe, A

1592
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:45,480
elation Acme.
You know, there's 10 brands that

1593
01:46:45,480 --> 01:46:49,920
that could be and it makes it
much easier to design my my team

1594
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:51,720
will tell you that I don't even
remember what the.

1595
01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:53,640
What the names of these things
are anymore?

1596
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:55,760
Yeah, because you don't need to.
We talk about.

1597
01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:57,440
We talk about them in.
Terms of their.

1598
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:02,040
Task and function, and somebody
will say, oh, I know we used

1599
01:47:02,040 --> 01:47:04,000
this last time, but there's this
new thing.

1600
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:07,120
We could use that instead.
It does the same thing and it's

1601
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:09,840
cheaper or whatever and we've
got them in stock.

1602
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:12,640
That too.
That too, and.

1603
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:21,000
So, so, so it's this is
complicated, but the equipment

1604
01:47:21,280 --> 01:47:26,040
is not the reason you can't do
something interesting.

1605
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:29,520
Yeah, we've evolved to that
point, I think for sure.

1606
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:31,680
Yeah.
So the next time I see you is

1607
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:35,160
going to be at this this event
in Vegas called Dining with

1608
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,200
Dinosaurs.
And we appreciate that you're

1609
01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:38,960
going to be one of our
dinosaurs.

1610
01:47:39,360 --> 01:47:43,120
And it, you know, it's funny
because when we first came up

1611
01:47:43,120 --> 01:47:46,840
with this name, I was like, you
know, none of these friends of

1612
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:50,960
ours and, and designers and
riggers and audio people and

1613
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:52,880
stuff, they're not going to want
to be called dinosaurs.

1614
01:47:52,920 --> 01:47:55,720
Oh, yes, they will.
And it, it, you know, it's, it's

1615
01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:58,640
funny because we have a waiting
list for people who want to be

1616
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:01,440
dinosaurs.
It occurred to me that that I

1617
01:48:01,440 --> 01:48:03,920
didn't want to be called a
dinosaur, but.

1618
01:48:06,440 --> 01:48:08,480
It's your event and it's not my
call.

1619
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:17,320
And I hope we can contribute
something to the younger people

1620
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:20,520
who are looking at this.
Yeah, that's, that's what I was

1621
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:21,960
going to ask you.
Is is.

1622
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:25,120
I assume you know, based on your
book, based on some of the other

1623
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:29,320
teaching stuff that you've done
that you are a fan of, of

1624
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:32,000
passing on information to
younger people entering the

1625
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:34,440
business.
Totally.

1626
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:38,360
I mean.
I don't think there's enough

1627
01:48:38,360 --> 01:48:42,000
people to do the work that's
going on.

1628
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:45,800
Right now much?
Less the work we'll see as the

1629
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:51,080
thing grows and expanse.
There aren't enough people who

1630
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:56,560
know what they're doing, and
that's not to be mean to anybody

1631
01:48:56,560 --> 01:49:00,240
who who knows less than I think
they should.

1632
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:04,640
And it's just we don't have a
good enough mechanism.

1633
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:08,480
To.
To pass these things along and

1634
01:49:08,560 --> 01:49:12,920
and prepare people well, you
don't a couple of contributing

1635
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:15,400
factors to.
First, you had COVID where a lot

1636
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:19,120
of people left the industry
forever, didn't come back, you

1637
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:22,080
know, and secondly, coming out
of COVID, everything kind of

1638
01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:26,680
went batshit crazy and and
expanded like mad and, and, you

1639
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:29,600
know, more shows, more bands
touring all at the same time.

1640
01:49:29,600 --> 01:49:35,880
Everybody wanted to go out and
so the business expanded and the

1641
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:40,920
workers contracted basically.
And so, you know, and then I

1642
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:43,920
think a lot of companies have
done a really great job creating

1643
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:47,840
training programs and, and
bringing new people into the

1644
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:50,320
industry.
But it's all happened sort of in

1645
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:53,480
a vacuum and it's all happened
very quickly in a big rush.

1646
01:49:53,480 --> 01:49:58,800
And so I, I, I love that I'm
able to put this thing together,

1647
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:01,280
even though the name is kind of
silly, but I love that we're

1648
01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:05,360
able to put this thing together
to really pair up, you know,

1649
01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:09,480
sort of mentors with, with
groups of people who want to do

1650
01:50:09,480 --> 01:50:12,440
the same thing I just did.
Just sit and the brain of a, a

1651
01:50:12,440 --> 01:50:14,680
legend.
You know, we can keep talking

1652
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:17,280
about this as we go down the
line because.

1653
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:21,760
Yeah.
I, I think we're, we're, we've

1654
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:24,480
got all these people that you've
collected and there are others

1655
01:50:24,480 --> 01:50:28,800
that, you know, couldn't be
there or whatever, but what we

1656
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:33,480
have or, or what we know.
Is what I'd.

1657
01:50:33,480 --> 01:50:37,600
Call field craft.
You know, there's a zillion

1658
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,560
people that you could put into a
traditional theater and they

1659
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:42,680
know what to do.
They know more than I do.

1660
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:48,120
But you put somebody in a field
in Louisiana or in a football

1661
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:52,920
stadium in South Africa, and
that's.

1662
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:58,560
That's exciting work, but it's
boy.

1663
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,840
It's, it's a whole different set
of challenges.

1664
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:04,600
It's yeah, it's.
It's a different creature.

1665
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,800
All together.
But but see, The thing is, if

1666
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:11,480
you call up any of the half
dozen vendors we know, or you

1667
01:51:11,480 --> 01:51:16,160
call up Tate, or you call up
Claire, or you call up you can

1668
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:21,960
assemble a show, a huge show,
and put it in the middle of the

1669
01:51:21,960 --> 01:51:26,800
Sahara Desert with generators
and broadcast it to the entire

1670
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:33,040
world perfectly.
The technology is is now in

1671
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:35,720
existence to do.
That, but there's not.

1672
01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:38,680
Enough people to do it in enough
places.

1673
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:44,120
And of course things like that
on smaller scale happening all

1674
01:51:44,120 --> 01:51:47,480
over the place.
Yeah, it's, it's very important.

1675
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:50,560
And we, we appreciate you
getting involved in it.

1676
01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:52,160
I mean, you're, you're a huge
name.

1677
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:55,880
You're obviously someone who
people are going to want to talk

1678
01:51:55,880 --> 01:51:59,120
to.
And so we appreciate you getting

1679
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:01,400
involved in that.
It's been huge amount of work

1680
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:04,160
for Sarah and I getting involved
with LDI to put this thing

1681
01:52:04,160 --> 01:52:07,120
together.
And yes, it's going to be fun.

1682
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:09,840
I look forward to it.
Thank you.

1683
01:52:09,840 --> 01:52:10,600
So.
Much Alan.

1684
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:13,440
I appreciate your time today.
And look forward to seeing you

1685
01:52:13,440 --> 01:52:15,560
in Vegas.
You're welcome.

1686
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:17,360
See you there.
Have a great one.