#282 - Andrew "Hamish" Mills

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So it's episode #282 with Hamish
or also known as Andrew, his

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real name, Hamish Mills from
PRG.

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And if you don't know Hamish's
story on how he got named, we

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actually talk about that today.
We talk about that.

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We talk about his incredible
history in the business, you

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know, just working with the best
companies, doing some of the

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best tours.
I would say he's probably very

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good and also very fortunate and
lucky because he has sort of

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checked all the boxes.
The biggest best companies

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LSDPRG.
Well, lots of.

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Three letter companies,
PRGLSDVER Verilite and you know,

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he's done some really great
things and has a very important

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role at Verilite as well.
So enjoyable guy, great story

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and a lot of fun so I hope you
like it.

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Hello, thanks for joining me for
episode #282 of Geez of Gear.

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Today's podcast is brought to
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Hello again.

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00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,600
And so by the time you hear
this, LDI is over and.

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It was a great show.
Fantastic.

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Actually I haven't left yet so
it is now Wednesday.

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I'm recording this on Wednesday
right before the LDI show.

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I leave on Friday and I actually
just changed my trip.

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I was originally leaving on
Saturday and then a few people

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wanted to have meetings on
Saturday.

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And what do you mean you have no
time?

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What do you mean you're leaving
Tuesday morning?

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What do you mean you have?
You can't have a meeting on

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Saturday or whatever.
So I have changed it and I am

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now arriving Friday night late.
And so funny story, I like to

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stay at a particular hotel.
I won't say the name just so

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that people don't start putting
their drink bills on my room or

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something.
But I like to stay at a

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particular hotel and it's easy.
And, and there's not a big

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casino that you got to walk
through to get to your room,

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which is now probably
eliminating a lot of hotels and

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making you focus on one in
particular.

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But I booked it a while ago and
I got this deal where it was

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like sensible, like 240 bucks a
night or something like that.

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Plus, you know, the ridiculous
resort fees.

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I think it was like 270
including resort fees maybe.

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Anyways, whatever it was.
So I went to add the one night

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at the front end, the Friday
night at the front end and and I

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am a a VIP member, platinum
member, whatever it's called of

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that hotel chain.
And so I thought, OK, this isn't

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going to be a problem.
You just extend it by one night,

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same rate.
No.

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Well, first of all, we couldn't
extend it by one night.

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I had to book a separate
reservation.

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Secondly, it's literally more
than twice as much money.

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It's 600 bucks for one night in
this place.

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So guess where Mr. Marcel is
staying?

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I'm staying by the airport in
like a Holiday Inn or something,

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one of those kind of places,
Hyatt Place, I don't know what

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it was, but one of those, one of
the lower end hotels of a higher

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end chain.
And I'm perfectly happy with

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that.
I get in at like 11:00 at night.

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I'm not going to go anywhere.
I'll go straight to the room,

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crash, wake up in the morning
and move to a real hotel.

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And so that's my story.
And so by the time you hear this

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again, you can't say hi, I
caught you, you're at such and

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such hotel or whatever 'cause
it's already over.

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So I'm really looking forward to
seeing lots and lots of people.

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Of course, I'm looking forward
to dining with dinosaurs, which

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again, by the time you hear this
will have already been done.

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It's our inaugural event this
year.

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It's going to be a hell of a lot
of fun.

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It's I'm getting calls like I've
actually, I remember when I used

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to get calls for concert
tickets.

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I don't get that anymore.
But when I used to get calls for

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concert tickets all the time,
I'm getting more calls for, for

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can you get me into this
dinosaur thing?

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And I can't.
Like I don't have any passes.

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They haven't given me anything.
I thought I was actually going

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to have to pay for my own lunch
knowing these wonderful folks at

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LDI.
So.

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So yeah, I don't have any
passes.

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But, you know, again, by the
time you hear this, you will

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have known that because you've
probably called my phone 100

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times saying get me into this
thing.

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It's wild.
I mean, it, it feels like, you

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know, it feels a little bit
weirdly viral, you know, and I

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know I'll get there and only
four people will show up, but

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it, it sure feels like the
room's going to be stacked full

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of people.
And it's just going to be a

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really fun event.
And I'm really looking forward

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to seeing not just the the
people on our dinosaur list, but

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a lot of the people who have
told me they're coming, like

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real key people in our industry
and stuff.

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I thought it was just going to
be kids.

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I thought it was going to be
students.

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But no, like people who've been
in the industry a long time and

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that are almost certifiable
dinosaurs.

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Actually, there are a couple
dinosaurs who have told me

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they're coming.
So so yeah, looking forward to

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that.
And again, it's a little bit

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redundant because by the time
you hear this.

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It'll all be over.
What else?

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I got nothing on AI.
There's so many things happening

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with AI right now that I can
hardly keep up.

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And I promise, hopefully next
week I'll give you one of my

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updates, not only on the things
that have happened in the AI

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world, cause a lot of things
have happened, but on ways that

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I'm utilizing AII want to get
into more of that kind of stuff

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like how's it changing my life?
What are things that I've tried

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that are really working for me
and that I recommend to you

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possibly for your businesses or
your lives?

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And there's a bunch of those.
Like there's some things that

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you'd have to, you know, beat me
up to get them away from me at

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this point because I use them on
a daily basis.

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Like literally AI and don't tell
my employees this.

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But AI has has quickly become
probably my favorite employee at

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this point.
And so, yeah.

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And Speaking of employees,
through my company, we've

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actually just hired another
person.

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So I always love that.
It always feels like Christmas

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when a new person comes in.
We've parted with one person and

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we've added one person and we're
adding another person.

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We've already sort of up the
list and, and so we're working

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on finding that second person
right now.

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So it's exciting times.
We're back to finally growing

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again.
If you know me, you know, we've

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been through some pain over the
last few years.

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You know, everybody kind of got
over COVID.

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We didn't, you know, we got
sicker as time went on and we've

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fixed all the things.
We've built a Better Business

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today.
I'm really actually proud of

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what our team have done and, and
what we've survived.

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And so the future is bright.
So enough about me, how about

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you?
So today's guest, I won't say

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I'm really excited about this
one 'cause I always say that,

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but I am kind of.
So a gentleman named Andrew

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Mills, who's better known as
Hamish in the industry, brings

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more than 30 years of
entertainment industry

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experience.
Hamish has toured with acts like

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You Too, Metallica, Nirvana, Rod
Stewart and other high profile

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entertainers.
And he worked with service

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providers in the US, Australia,
UK and Europe.

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And Hamish has been responsible
for managing and directing

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operational functions for large
entertainment service providers

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in multiple countries.
A leader with proven success at

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companies including VER Tate
Towers, Epic Productions,

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Verilite, and Light and Sound
Design.

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Now the senior vice president of
operations for PRG, Hamish has a

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drive for excellence and
success.

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Please welcome Andrew Hamish
Mills to the podcast.

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Well, hello there, Mr. Mills,
How are you?

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Very good, Marcel, how are you?
I'm doing OK.

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I'm sitting here in sunny South
Florida when everybody else is

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freezing to death.
So although, you know, my

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friends in Canada love this one,
but I went out for my walk this

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morning and I actually had to
put a jacket on.

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It was like I think it was 48°
or something.

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When I went out for my walk this
morning I walked like 4 miles

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every morning and I was like
whoa, this is a little bit

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chilly at six O clock in the
morning so. 41° where I live in

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Simi in California here right
now.

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I do, I ride my bike every
morning.

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I'll do like 8 or 9 miles on my
bicycle.

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Yeah.
Not electric.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And those are so funny.
Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.
Well, you know what?

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Those have a purpose.
So I, I've got one of my, my

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best friends is, you know, he's
an older guy and you know, it's

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he's able to still get on a
bike, he's still able to get out

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and experiencing of.
Course I love.

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That for, for for people that
aren't as inclined physically,

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it's a good substitute for that.
I have a house up in Canada in,

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in like the Banff area
basically, yeah.

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And we go there for the whole
summer.

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And so I have two E bikes and I
have, I'm buying an E mountain

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bike as well.
Yeah.

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And so that one kind of
surprised me.

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I was like, OK, what's the
purpose of these E mountain

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00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,200
bikes?
But so many of my friends up

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there are like, you know, these
crazy like champion mountain

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bikers and stuff.
And The thing is you can just

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get further, faster, you know,
because E mountain bikes are

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all, and you know this, I'm
sure, but they're all pedal

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assist.
And so you still have to work,

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you know, it's.
Just absolutely.

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Yeah.
Yeah, you can just.

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Faster you can go steeper, you
can go higher, whatever it is,

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right.
And so they can get in what was

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a four hour ride and you really
had to plan for it because you

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didn't have time.
They can get that in in two

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hours now.
And so that's sort of the the

229
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:42,840
protocol for me.
I'm just old and out of shape

230
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,400
ish.
And you know, I want help up the

231
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,720
freaking hill.
I want somebody to hook a chain

232
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,280
up to the front and just pull me
up the hill, you know, so but

233
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,920
the, the mountain bikes because
of where are are the E bikes, I

234
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,520
should say, because of where our
house is, like you can

235
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,160
physically ride your bicycle
down into town, which I do, and

236
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,440
then you got to ride back up.
So if you have a couple beers

237
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,800
when you're in town or whatever,
it could be a little painful

238
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,400
coming back up.
Yeah, it's a struggle.

239
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,720
But if my girlfriend or one of
my house guests or something

240
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,160
wants to go down for a coffee or
a beer or whatever, we'll take

241
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,400
the E bikes and ride down there
and, and you know, you could

242
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,320
just hit the button and ride
back up again.

243
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,000
It these aren't pedal assists.
They've got a throttle on them

244
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,240
and and so they're fun.
I think I've always said those E

245
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,080
bikes that I have are probably
like the most fun per dollar

246
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,640
that I've ever spent on
something 'cause they really are

247
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,840
a blast.
You know you can do 30-40 mile

248
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,920
rides and you know, not break a
sweat so.

249
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,880
No 100%.
Yeah, it's pretty fun.

250
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,080
So I I got to ask you because I
don't know the answer to this

251
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,320
one.
Where did you get the name?

252
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,440
Where did Hamish come from?
So everyone asked me that

253
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,360
question.
I've had that nickname since

254
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,080
Australia and it was funny like,
you know, my career started

255
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,440
with, you know, when I was 18,
left school, I had my best mate

256
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,360
who ran a, he set up his own
little small business, which is

257
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,600
a mobile disco.
So, so he would, you know, you

258
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,400
invested in some speakers and
bought some lights and we made

259
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,160
in his garage a homemade
lighting board basically, which

260
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,680
was a bunch of, you know,
household switches with Edison's

261
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,880
or, you know, extension cords
plugged into the back.

262
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,360
And you would just sit there
during, you know, whatever.

263
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,640
He would get a job, whether it
was above it, so wedding,

264
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,480
whatever, and do the lights and
stuff for that.

265
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,560
And so I started there and then
he was a drummer as well.

266
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,480
So then he started doing cover
bands.

267
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,280
And so I followed along and my
actual first gig, ironically,

268
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,880
was audio.
As you remember doing, we did

269
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,640
this rehearsal in this, you
know, it was like a preschool

270
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,640
that one of the band members had
a friend that had access to and

271
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,800
that's where they set up.
And you know, I did audio for

272
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,600
the first time there, but, but
basically we, I work got into

273
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,200
the cover band circuit in
Australia in the late 80s and

274
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,600
the cover band circuit in
Australia was actually pretty

275
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,520
vibrant back then.
And you could go out and you

276
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:05,640
know, we still see it today,
right?

277
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,160
We still see quite a lot of
pretty popular Australian cover

278
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,080
bands with the Bee Gees, Pink
Floyd, and they have a

279
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,640
definitely still have a vehicle
and an audience for those sort

280
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,120
of things.
But back in the 80s it was a

281
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,480
very vibrant thing where you
could go out and tour Australia

282
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,880
for four or five months going
around, and you'd go around and

283
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,040
do what I call a pub circuit.
So it was a good way to see a

284
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,920
lot of Australia you'd go into.
You'd play some of these really

285
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,360
Outback towns where, you know,
you have to sweep the blood and

286
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,720
the glass up at the end of each
night on the loadout.

287
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,520
Yeah, to go do that.
But anyway, one of the drummers

288
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,200
and the bands I was working for,
he couldn't remember my name and

289
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,960
he just looked at me and says
you look like a Hamish, so I'm

290
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,720
just going to call you Hamish.
And it's sort of stuck because

291
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,000
it's a pretty unusual name.
Yeah, it is sort of it just it

292
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,640
sort of just stuck with me ever
since then.

293
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,000
I sort of, you know, it sort of
followed me because, you know, I

294
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,960
did the cover band stuff in
Australia and then I started to

295
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,120
do recording bands and ILD D
Australian band called Spy

296
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,400
Versus Spy.
And then I ended up doing Susie

297
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:07,720
Quattro.
Wow.

298
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,120
I ran around Australia.
So I did that.

299
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,680
And then I did Cliff Richard, as
you know, as Aligning.

300
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,800
I was like the youngest kid on
think I was like 20 at the time.

301
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,280
And, you know, I got on this
Cliff Richard tour of Australia.

302
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,520
Cliff Richard, for the audience
who may or may not know, is a

303
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,520
pretty renowned performer in the
UK, Europe and Australia.

304
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,880
And, you know, he, he his, you
know, the lighting designer at

305
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,240
the time was a guy called Bob
Elliott.

306
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,880
And we had a pretty, a pretty
complex lighting rig with that.

307
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:45,360
It was all, you know, triangular
pods that moved during the show.

308
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,280
He had very lights on it, you
know, and that was sort of my

309
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,280
intro into what I'll call a
large scale production tour.

310
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,000
Actually, the first one I
actually worked on was Bee Gees.

311
00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,840
I remember delighting into Bruce
Indoor Stadium when I was

312
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,360
working as a stagehand and Mel
was a lighting board operator

313
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,560
and I think it was called
obviously the lighting designer.

314
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,480
And you know, we did the be that
was that was that was amazing.

315
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,640
That's what sort of got me in
into real, Hey, this is a career

316
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,200
for me very early.
Did the media blow up as big in

317
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,359
in Australia as they did here?
Huge 100%, yeah.

318
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,160
Like, yeah, huge following.
Yeah.

319
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,920
Well, you know, that that that
they sort of lived there, right,

320
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,359
is at one point, I think, you
know, between, you know, UK,

321
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,680
Australia and then obviously,
you know, settling in the US But

322
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,440
yeah, they're very popular.
There, Yeah, I mean, obviously

323
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,080
the disco thing here just went
completely boom and and they

324
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,520
were suddenly huge, but.
But I didn't know if they were

325
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,480
all so big, I would assume
they'd be big in Australia as

326
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,760
well.
But yeah, just curious.

327
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,280
So the name, the name stuck and
and it's funny.

328
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,000
Like, I mean, at least it's
Hamish.

329
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,440
It's not like, you know, some of
the really funny ones that

330
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,640
people have walked around with
for 50 years.

331
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,040
You know, poop is always one of
my favourites.

332
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,680
Yep, nice guy.
Well, and I guess his comes from

333
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,960
his name at least, you know.
But but still it's it's a weird

334
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,760
name to have to carry around
your whole life and get called

335
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,400
on radios and stuff.
Poop.

336
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,280
Yeah, yeah.
So, so you kind of started late

337
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:25,280
then by, let's call it geezer
standards, you know where a lot

338
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,680
of these guys started in the in
the 70s.

339
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,240
Yeah, yeah, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a
young in, in the things.

340
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,400
I mean, I'm 55 now.
I mean, I've been doing this 37

341
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,320
years.
But yeah, you know, I sort of

342
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,200
called the tail end of what I'll
call the sweet spot in our

343
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,320
industry where it really changed
quite dramatically.

344
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,240
I mean, you know, I, I moved to
the UK It was interesting

345
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,640
because when I finished doing
Cliff Richard in Australia, you

346
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,760
know, the guys who did that were
from Samuelson's at the time,

347
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,440
which was, yeah, you know, a
branch of you're like Jerry as

348
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,160
the crew chief on it.
And, you know, they asked, hey,

349
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,640
Amy, she want to come over to
the UK and do the next clip of

350
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,880
the leg, leg in the UK.
You know, I was sort of like,

351
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,200
you know, I'm 20 at the time.
And I said, you know what,

352
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,640
Australia is only so big.
And it was for me, it was an

353
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,880
opportunity.
And both my parents were

354
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,640
English.
So I got a British passport so I

355
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,200
could literally jump on a plane
and oh, that's good.

356
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,440
So I had a drunk in at the time
I sold it.

357
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,320
That's what was paid for my
plane ticket.

358
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,080
And the tour was meant to start
on I think August or September.

359
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,440
This is back in 91 and or 90.
I've got a good so long.

360
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,640
So I, I just said, you know
what, I'm going to move over to

361
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,360
the UK early and at the time
they didn't have a gig for me.

362
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,320
So I said, you know what?
I'm not going to sit around.

363
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,240
I'm going to, you know, pound
the pavement.

364
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,320
So if I can just lay in another
gig with a different company,

365
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,760
just see what happens.
And I ended up working, but

366
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,720
first gig was with a company
called Super Mech.

367
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,160
Yeah, and Super Mech.
Mr. Clark.

368
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,600
Mr. Clark.
Peter Clark.

369
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,840
Peter Clark.
Peter Clark.

370
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,760
Job interview.
Do you know what PDS are?

371
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,520
No.
You've got the job, Maxi, give

372
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,000
that man a tenner.
You know he was.

373
00:19:58,120 --> 00:19:59,400
He was.
I loved Peter, man.

374
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,440
That guy was.
Is he still around?

375
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,600
I don't know.
I don't know where it is so I

376
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,920
know what it is.
I asked someone else and they

377
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,120
said I think he's.
Still.

378
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:12,040
Around like he's still above
ground, which is good, but I I

379
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,960
haven't heard of or about or
from him in 100 years forever.

380
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,280
Yeah, but I mean, it was
interesting because you know, my

381
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,920
first tour in the UK, I landed
doing the Gipsy Kings for Clarky

382
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,760
and it was like, you know, at
the time, you know, Clark had a

383
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,800
pretty unique formula to how he
did lighting, right?

384
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,040
It was just like straight box
trusses.

385
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,760
You would go up to, you had two
offices, one in London and one

386
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,000
up in Banbury where you
generally prep, prep, do the

387
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,040
preps and he would just have
stock looms and stuff.

388
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,120
And it was pretty cookie cutter
and how he sort of did it and he

389
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,200
was very, you know, yeah, I
remember I was on tour with him

390
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,480
and then he said, oh, you got a
day off.

391
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,120
I want you to go do a load in at
Sheffield Arena for the WWE, you

392
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:53,040
know.
Oh, thanks, David.

393
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,880
You know, Yeah, yeah, nice.
But yeah, I ended up doing that.

394
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,280
And then it was interesting
because the next job I did for

395
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,000
him was Nirvana.
And that was, you know, God, was

396
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,440
it the Never mind tour?
Whatever it.

397
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,440
Was and the first time.
And that was an LSD job that was

398
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,640
completely that was so busy with
what they had, they just

399
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,040
outsourced it all to Clarky.
Wow.

400
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:21,400
So they sent the crew chief over
who was Mill, Rocky and Mill.

401
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,280
I sort of was on the lighting
crew there.

402
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,120
And he said, well, Hamish, you
need to come over to Light and

403
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,720
Santa Design.
So I said, OK, so you know, I

404
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,360
finished doing Nirvana and then
I got a job at Light Santa sign

405
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,280
and went out to Black Sabbath
was my next tour and I did that.

406
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,280
And that was that was so that
was a, you know, once again,

407
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,200
this is a cool learning
experience.

408
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,800
You know, like 21, I'm starting
to do these hijacks travelling

409
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,280
around Europe.
And then and then I got what was

410
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,640
probably my first major, major
tour, which was Metallica, the

411
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,600
Black Tour and you.
Know that was that was going

412
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,600
yeah.
Yeah, well, it was like for me,

413
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,160
it was funny.
I forgot to bring the T-shirt.

414
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,040
We, it's like think I was like
#54 on the crew as that cycled

415
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,560
through, you know, where we were
with that.

416
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,040
But you know, that was because,
you know, Jack Berry was a

417
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,320
production manager.
That was my first interaction

418
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,880
with Jake.
John Broderick was a lighting

419
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,440
designer and you know when you
work with JB, he's a very

420
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,960
articulate guy and his
expectations to very fanatical

421
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,960
bodies in the column in back in
those days.

422
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,240
What was quite interesting
growing up in Australia and

423
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,080
working lighting boards, that we
actually were using DMX, you

424
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760
know, pretty early compared to
the rest of the world, right in.

425
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,120
Jam him and his analogue desks,
right?

426
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,960
100% Well, him and really are
both like that, right?

427
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,800
Yeah.
They are very much into the

428
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,480
mindset that the analogue 12
Volt control is you've got,

429
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,560
you're getting an instant
gratification of the feel of the

430
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,840
light through the faders on the
board.

431
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,800
And they felt the degradation or
the signal from DMX was too slow

432
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,000
to the response time that they
had to work with.

433
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,360
So they were adamant.
I mean I did Metallica and I had

434
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:06,880
like 672 way Dimaraks in a
banana patch Bay that was messy

435
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,240
to deal with the fact that
everything was managed on an

436
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,320
analog console.
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I remember

437
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,880
that he, he actually, I got
into.

438
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,240
I wouldn't call it an argument
because I wouldn't have got into

439
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,000
an argument with JB.
But I was doing a demo with I

440
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,600
don't remember if I was with
Martin at the time or what, but

441
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,920
I was at upstaging in a demo and
he got into this conversation

442
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,640
with me about because I was
looking at his setup and I was

443
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:37,080
like, why are you using an old
Avo analog console?

444
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,560
And he said because it's so much
better and it's it's there's

445
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,840
more feel and it's faster.
And I said, why do you need

446
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,840
faster?
Like, you know, you're changing

447
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,160
from scene to scene and he he,
you know, brings up a look and

448
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,720
then he starts going like, he's
playing drums for Metallica,

449
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,920
right?
And I'm like, OK.

450
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,160
He had that free strokes, right?
He had two buttons on the front

451
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,480
of that console, which was
exactly that.

452
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,880
Yeah, like it was what,
Metallica song where he.

453
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,160
Played the Strokes.
He's basically playing the

454
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,760
strokes, yeah.
Yeah, it was probably like Dun

455
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,040
Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun
Dun, whatever that song's

456
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,080
called.
Yeah, I've got.

457
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,640
I'd say.
Yeah, yeah, that, that, that 2

458
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,320
of me, by the way, was at the
time 21 on the Black tour.

459
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,960
And that was their breakout
tour.

460
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,680
That was that.
That album went nuts for that.

461
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,400
Well, you know, it was funny
because at the time it was us,

462
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,160
We had Guns and Roses out.
Yeah, OP was doing Guns and

463
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,480
Roses, Jake was doing Metallica,
and of course those two are like

464
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,760
2 pieces of pot, right?
They're all they're always on

465
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,680
the phone trying to outdo each
other on the how quickly you do

466
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,440
the loadout or whatever the
things were to go.

467
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,360
And do you know, Jake would
always bust your balls to say,

468
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,120
hey, it took took long an hour
loadout.

469
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:53,240
It was only an hour and 50
minutes.

470
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,600
But yeah, 15 trucks.
But you know, it was it was a

471
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,320
good cutting experience for me
on that tour because I actually

472
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,720
was paired with a lot of good
people on that tour.

473
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:10,800
A little buddy, Gordo Heinford,
you know, Tommy Booth, and we

474
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,800
had a very strong crew and.
At that point you were just part

475
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,160
of the lighting crew or.
Yeah, I was doing dimmers, yeah,

476
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,960
I was sort of head dimmer
technician.

477
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,200
So, you know, and you know, that
was a large tour because I mean,

478
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,800
like I said, I walked in or
suddenly got, you know, 672 way

479
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,600
demo, you know, dimmers to to
manage and you learn very

480
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,400
quickly all the craft that you
need to, particularly when you

481
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,840
start doing different venues and
stuff.

482
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600
I think one of the things that I
struggle with even to this day

483
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,040
is that people have lost the
fundamentals with touring these

484
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,920
days because it becomes so
complacent or just don't

485
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,800
understand some of the things
that you should be doing.

486
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,960
You know, and it first starts
with your power of you not

487
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,120
measuring your power and
understanding if you've got a

488
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,840
good clean power, you're going
to have a bad day.

489
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Yeah.
And I've seen that happen on a

490
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,400
couple of large jobs where, oh,
we've dropped a neutral or the

491
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,120
electrician wired the tails in
incorrectly.

492
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,640
And, you know, it really does
start with those basic

493
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,280
fundamentals, you know, going
like, you go out in the venue

494
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,840
for me, you know, what the hell
I used to work with Metallica

495
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,440
was.
And I said, Mr. Joe, I, I would

496
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,840
go to every department audio,
you know, video myself.

497
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,000
I, I basically took on
everyone's tides in the morning

498
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,080
because I would used to be able
to ask the right questions.

499
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,720
An electrician, you know, okay,
what are these?

500
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,520
What are the feeds on?
Are they independent of the

501
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,480
separate mechanical ground?
Electrical ground is already AC

502
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,720
units on these stuff.
You know, you get into all these

503
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,320
different things because, you
know, if you were tied on the

504
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800
same power as the audio, then,
you know, the audio guys would

505
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,040
come at you and wine because of
the buzzing or, you know, yeah,

506
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,160
all those other things.
So, you know, it was in my

507
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,800
interest to try and get in front
of that.

508
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,800
Yeah, as much as possible.
So you know.

509
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,320
Have you, have you seen them
recently?

510
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,520
Have you been out there recently
for Metallica?

511
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,960
I haven't seen metallic stadium
thing.

512
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,160
No, I haven't.
Yeah, the last, so interestingly

513
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,160
not the last Metallica thing was
when I was at tight when we did

514
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,440
the the video.
The rig that fell over or

515
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,200
whatever, the fake crash of the
one of the towers or something?

516
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,160
What?
Was it something?

517
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800
Broke or it looked like it broke
during the show.

518
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,520
Well, that was that.
Well, I mean, that was, you

519
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,440
know, 'cause when we did the
forgotten, it was.

520
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,280
I think the load, load, Yeah,
you.

521
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,120
Had loaded the, the, the
collapsing towers each, each one

522
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,360
had that thing, right?
We had the justice tour with the

523
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,480
large statue.
Yeah, you would have that tour

524
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,440
that with the towers collapsing.
They had a huge toilet.

525
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,880
I mean, the, the stuff we did at
Tait was a culmination of all of

526
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,760
those things for these, you
know, large movie shoot that

527
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840
they were doing.
So, you know, we we designed

528
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,160
this off and I was at Tait that
was, you know, massive in scale

529
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,960
to all the different elements of
those different tours that they

530
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,400
didn't combine it into one show.
And I can just remember like

531
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,840
testing the hydraulic towers out
in the car, parking at tight on,

532
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,920
you know, just the mass that you
were moving at such a quick

533
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:00,880
rate.
Yeah.

534
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,000
And then stopping on a time.
We actually, we, it was funny.

535
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,880
We used to had some, you know, I
think it was Nathan Cross who

536
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,280
was the guy who's running
navigator for the programming on

537
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,600
that particular thing.
We we used to yeah, we tested

538
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,040
things.
We had a video with like a

539
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,680
watermelon and we see how we can
crush the watermelon with the

540
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,760
towels coming down.
And then we had a night Adam

541
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,840
Davis doll.
It was plugged in there as well

542
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,320
at one point.
That was that was pretty funny.

543
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,640
That's.
Awesome.

544
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,080
But yeah, you got to see some
pretty cool.

545
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,840
Stuff the, the new ones.
So I, I went and I hung out

546
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:37,000
with, with Koenig up in Canada
in Edmonton last summer because

547
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,800
I was up there at my house and I
had never seen monitors done

548
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,360
under the seats like that.
Like the, the whole monitor

549
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,760
setup was under the seats.
And so you had follow spots down

550
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,080
there, you had monitors, you had
Video World down there and it

551
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,760
was all happening under the
seats in the audience had no

552
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,400
idea.
And I mean, I guess you got to

553
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,200
put them somewhere, but I was, I
had just never seen monitors

554
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,800
done remotely like that.
Like I'm old school where I

555
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,760
always saw them done from the
side of the stage.

556
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,680
I just, yeah, maybe I just
didn't pay attention.

557
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,680
And we've been like that for a
long time, you know, and, and.

558
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,960
Yeah, I mean, most of the stuff,
like in the largest stages I did

559
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,800
stuff, they were always under
the stage and they had the

560
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,160
video.
But yeah, they had the video

561
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,320
cameras or the sorry video
monitor screens to look at the

562
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,600
artist and they were just.
Well, this wasn't under the

563
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,440
stage.
This was under the seats, like

564
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,120
off the field.
Yeah, yeah.

565
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,480
I mean, next to one of the bombs
and and I mean, it was just like

566
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,680
a full on production center down
there.

567
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,440
It was wild.
I couldn't believe it.

568
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,960
But yeah, it was pretty cool.
So, you know, you were just

569
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,440
talking about moving these
monstrosities and stuff.

570
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,320
Like, I know I'm jumping around
a bit now, but when, like, is

571
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,840
there a point where you and
others, like you start feeling

572
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,480
uncomfortable that, like, maybe
we've gone a little too far

573
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,600
here?
Like maybe this is getting

574
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,200
dangerous.
You know what what I say to that

575
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,160
is, so you kind of have, first
of all, confidence in the level

576
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,400
of engineering that you feel you
have behind it.

577
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,560
And yeah, it's interesting when
we talk about the safety of the

578
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,920
industry, like, you know, I go
back to my time at Clint

579
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,840
Frenchard.
Yeah, we used to walk the

580
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,760
trucks.
Yeah.

581
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,440
I didn't have any safety harness
on it.

582
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,360
You know, that was the days
where you would like camber down

583
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,000
the cable pick to get off the
trust.

584
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,160
You wouldn't even use the trust
ladder.

585
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,240
You would just slide down the
cable pick and get off.

586
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,400
I mean, we did some pretty
stupid stuff.

587
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,440
Yeah.
Back in the day, there was non,

588
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,320
you know, safety like.
Half the people doing it were

589
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360
high as a kite as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

590
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,960
It's.
Not like people were of clear

591
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,720
mind when they were sliding down
the cable pick.

592
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,240
Yeah.
So, I mean, from a safety

593
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,080
perspective, you know, we, you
started out, if you go back to

594
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,000
the infancy of the industry,
back in the 70s and 80s where

595
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,680
safety wasn't necessarily the
forefront of people sinking.

596
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,760
Yeah.
And it has made quite that

597
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,600
journey now, you know, with the
Event Safety Alliance and all

598
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,760
these other things in place.
And, you know, we've had some

599
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,760
consequential issues or, you
know, failures out there.

600
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,160
You know, I think Garth Brooks,
one Justin Timberlake when I

601
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,120
think it was just Timberlake.
Yeah.

602
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,320
Failures.
Sugar Land yeah, there's,

603
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,680
there's a lot of things that
that happened and they really,

604
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,080
and, and that, that is a
challenge, I think for anything

605
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,400
you're doing today in production
is really understanding what

606
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,880
you're doing and having the
confidence in the ability of, of

607
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,440
other people behind that to
ensure that you don't put

608
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,560
yourself into that situation.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny

609
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,840
you brought up ESA because they
were actually a sponsor on

610
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,440
today's podcast.
Yeah, I just, I just did their

611
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,720
sponsor read here 1520 minutes
ago.

612
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,160
But I had Digby on the on the
podcast once and I had no idea.

613
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,360
He told me basically where the
whole concept of it came from

614
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:55,400
was, you know, his his first gig
in a in a club when, you know, a

615
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,400
set piece basically came off the
rails literally and crushed a

616
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,240
girl and killed her.
And he was the guy who hit the

617
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,240
switch to make the thing move
that fell and killed the girl.

618
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,600
Yep.
And I was like, holy shit,

619
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,320
that's a story like.
Yeah, it's a heavy wow, right?

620
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,800
Yeah, that's a lot.
That's a lot to deal with when I

621
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,360
was kidding, you know?
Yeah.

622
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,160
You know and.
That's and that's something for

623
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,280
me, right, is that, you know, we
talk about life overhead safety

624
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,360
and you know, particularly when
you get into this, some of the

625
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,840
complexities of the productions
today because we're always

626
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,920
pushing the envelope with it.
Yeah, yeah.

627
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,560
You know, if you get into high
speed performer flying or just

628
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,240
automation in general, it's
there is a lot of risk to that

629
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,080
and it's really making sure that
you had been skid doing a due

630
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,000
diligence.
So always third party

631
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,160
engineering for me, always try
and make sure that you're, you

632
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,800
know, you're having those right
level of conversations.

633
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,240
But unfortunately quite often
these things end up as a father

634
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520
of just human behaviour more
than the fact it was an engineer

635
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,840
or something like, well it was
engineered, but I didn't follow

636
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,400
the engineering directions.
Yeah.

637
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Well, and you know, like you
said, I mean, the way it used to

638
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,240
be done, everything was a
shortcut.

639
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,040
Everything was sort of a made-up
last minute idea.

640
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,600
Well, we could just do one of
these, you know, and strap it to

641
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,880
this thing over here and it
won't go anywhere, you know.

642
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,960
And I mean, most of the time it
worked, you know, most of the

643
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,600
time.
Pretty much we we got away with

644
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,120
it, right.
It was just one of those things

645
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,360
you were lucky when there wasn't
an accident where you were

646
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,640
probably doing something that
wasn't probably in the best

647
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,080
interest.
So the outcome if was to be

648
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,400
looked at done, you know, the
right way.

649
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:29,840
Yeah.
You know, that was back in the

650
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,840
days, too.
That was always part of The

651
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,120
thing is there was a shortcut.
Yeah, to trying to get to what

652
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,280
you needed to get done.
I mean, it's interesting today.

653
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,880
I mean, I was listening to your
podcast earlier with Chris and

654
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,080
you talked about the, the
technology reliability now,

655
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,560
because, you know, back in the
day you were when I toured, it

656
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,400
was you had to strive for 100%,
you know, everything working.

657
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,200
So if I had something, I would
actually go up in the trust

658
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,600
during the show.
And you know, if I had a bowl,

659
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,080
can you know, a pod bulb out
sometimes.

660
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,440
Oh, I would go up and say, oh,
you know, during the show I'd

661
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,160
sit there with a chain bag and a
rope and drop it within someone,

662
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,480
load it, bulb in and I do it and
I put it in and get the leg back

663
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,080
up and getting it back to 100%.
Yeah, Yeah.

664
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,080
And that just doesn't seem to
happen these days.

665
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,400
It's like, oh, we just don't
worry about it.

666
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,480
Well, if something does go down.
There is the fact that there's

667
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,520
like 1000 moving lights in the
rig now.

668
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:22,360
Right.
So I'll just.

669
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,199
Cover it with another one.
That's OK.

670
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,199
Like you don't notice them
missing.

671
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,800
Like back in the day when there
was only 12 of them up there,

672
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,560
you did notice 1 missing?
Totally.

673
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,400
Yeah.
Now, now it's a little bit

674
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,360
different.
It's, you know, I had that

675
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,000
conversation with somebody
yesterday and I don't want to

676
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,679
get into any negative stuff, but
we were talking about just sort

677
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:46,159
of the lack of, of sort of art
or drama in some of these

678
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,280
lighting rigs now where, you
know, everything has 1000 moving

679
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,440
lights.
It's all a little bit

680
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,360
ubiquitous.
Yeah.

681
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,400
Whether it's a country act, a
pop act, a rock'n'roll act or an

682
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,280
opera, they all have 1000 moving
lights and similar looks going

683
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,160
on.
And, you know, that's what I

684
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,560
loved so much about that.
And people are ad nauseam on

685
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,400
this one right now, but the Mark
Brickman thing, the, the.

686
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,160
Yeah, Roger Waters.
I almost said, Jesus, David

687
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,560
Gilmour.
Yeah.

688
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,800
And I mean, it was so artistic
and so unique and so different.

689
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,680
And I just loved it.
It was.

690
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,440
It was, you know.
And you're just talking about

691
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,720
that tour you just did, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

692
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,480
Cuz yeah.
I think you you went to Madison

693
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:27,480
Square Garden.
I did.

694
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:28,400
Yeah.
Yeah, I went.

695
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,040
Yeah, I.
Went to the LA show it into it

696
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,640
there and you know, my I told my
wife and the show is amazing.

697
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,960
I mean, look, you know, as an
artist, it was he was the one.

698
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,600
And that was for one
disappointment.

699
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,680
I never got to do was tour with
Pink Floyd because if you go

700
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,960
back to the Pulse tour in 94,
whatever it was that was on the

701
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,360
tour, obviously Metallica.
And then I think I finished

702
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,880
that.
I went out on Deep Purple or

703
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,920
something afterwards.
But, you know, I had friends who

704
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,600
did that tour and it was like,
you know, for and from a

705
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,640
lighting perspective, that would
have been the ultimate, you

706
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,760
know, you know, and I still look
at that show today and it still

707
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,520
holds its own today.
It's true in the creativity and

708
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,640
just the well, you can't.
Say that about very many shows.

709
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,440
Can you you know that like what
is that 30 years ago?

710
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,920
Yep.
And it still holds up like

711
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,920
granted you'd have much brighter
moving lights today.

712
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,400
You know, you'd have much
brighter everything today and

713
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,360
you'd have more video and all
that stuff.

714
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,520
But.
But that show was incredible and

715
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,480
it still holds up.
And I I watched some video of it

716
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,160
right before I went to New York
just for nostalgic reasons.

717
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,960
Yep.
And but yeah, like I love any

718
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,920
time a designer, you know, like
I loved.

719
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,680
What was that?
The Coldplay video, speed of

720
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,200
sound, the one with all the
Element labs tubes, the Versa

721
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,160
tubes on it.
Yeah, I loved it.

722
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,760
Like that to me was just.
I think Keeling did it if I

723
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,240
recall.
Yeah, Keeling, he did that too.

724
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,400
He did something for Kravitz,
right, With the.

725
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,480
Yeah, exactly.
Circular to video and yeah,

726
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,800
yeah, exactly.
And I love stuff like that.

727
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,280
I like when somebody takes a
chance and says I'm not just

728
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,480
gonna put 1000 moving lights,
I'm gonna do something a little

729
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,240
bit different.
And so, yeah.

730
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,960
Well, I mean, that's the thing,
right?

731
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080
It's the artistic level of the
people.

732
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,440
You know, we sort of go back to
the conversation about, you

733
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,800
know, JB and you know, like
Willie Williams on YouTube,

734
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,880
similar sort of guy, right,
moving a bunch of lighting with

735
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,840
not actual move, you know,
physical moving lights and

736
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,320
stuff.
And there he was also in that

737
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,720
mindset with, hey, I'm still
going to have an analogue

738
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,000
console because there's certain
movement.

739
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,400
I want to see the fixtures
themselves that I'm not

740
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,120
necessarily going to get on a
moving light console.

741
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,400
Yeah, from that perspective, you
know, and his his sort of design

742
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,600
methodology was interesting
because when I did the Pop Mart

743
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,200
tour, I mean, you know, if you
look at that and in the core, he

744
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,480
took, you know, architectural
elements that he saw at LAX and,

745
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,200
you know, whatever else, and he
sort of incorporated him into

746
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,720
his design.
But I remember doing the Pop art

747
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:59,680
tour and, you know, that was the
real, what I would call a

748
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,960
transition on the LED side of
the equation, right.

749
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,080
So before that, we're all using
bloody jumbotrons and whatever

750
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,280
the other is, right?
Yeah.

751
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,960
You know, LED screens that
weight a ton and to very

752
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,000
cumbersome.
And they came out with the blue

753
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:21,200
LED and then Frederick and that
group basically built this video

754
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,280
wall for you too.
And, you know, obviously the

755
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,880
band funded.
It's interesting when you look

756
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,120
at the history of some of what
bands have funded in the

757
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,480
technology of the industry
history with like Genesis, you

758
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,040
know, U2, Supertramp, you know,
used to buy all this stuff as

759
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,080
well back in the day.
It's it's.

760
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,080
Almost like what porn did for,
you know, video file

761
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:41,400
compression.
Yeah, yeah.

762
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,520
And.
You know it's true.

763
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,200
Like none of that stuff would
have gotten as as big and as

764
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,680
fast as it did without porn
paying for it.

765
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,080
You know it's true.
Sad but true.

766
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,240
Yeah, but so how long were you
at LSD?

767
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,000
About eight years, 8 years.
I did, you know, I you know, I

768
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,280
lived in the UK when I did.
You too.

769
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,440
I met my wife in the audience,
interestingly enough, at

770
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,160
Oakland.
And, you know, her sister's

771
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,920
American stewardess.
Yeah, she's American.

772
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,840
She's born and raised in
California, and I was living in

773
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,480
the UK.
I met her.

774
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,600
And anyway, cut a Long story
short, we got married a year

775
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,480
after I met her, and we're still
together today.

776
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,080
We've been married 26 years.
So do you have a 2020 what 5

777
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,720
year old kid or something?
I've got, well now I've got a 21

778
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:35,840
year old and I'm actually got a,
I got a 35 year old.

779
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,080
I was just making a joke that
maybe she got pregnant and you

780
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:39,440
got.
Married.

781
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,480
No, no, no, no.
It wasn't like that.

782
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,760
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah.

783
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,120
So, you know, that was.
So I came off you too.

784
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,320
And then I moved to the States
and then, you know, because on

785
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,960
Samsung we had offices in
Birmingham and Newbury Park.

786
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,360
Yeah.
You know, you know, Nick and Tim

787
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,400
said, hey, we'll just, we'll
just sponsor your visa over

788
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,560
here.
You can just work over in the US

789
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,960
until I got my, you know, my
visa from my marriage or

790
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,880
whatever it was, you know, my
green cards.

791
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,400
Yeah.
And then I did Rod Stewart for

792
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,400
for Tim.
And then interestingly enough, I

793
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,680
got a that's when I got an offer
to go to very light because, you

794
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:19,760
know, I I wouldn't when I got
married.

795
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:20,960
I want to come off the road, you
know?

796
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,240
Yeah, it's the one thing for me,
right?

797
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:23,760
You've got to have a successful
marriage.

798
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,920
It's very hard to do that.
Yeah, really on the road.

799
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,080
I don't know how.
Some of these guys do it, I have

800
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,000
no idea.
It takes a special person,

801
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,000
they're going to willing to
stick it out and they don't see

802
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,920
their partners for long periods
of time.

803
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,440
And, you know, and that just
wasn't for me.

804
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,520
And I sort of made that
conscious decision that, you

805
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,440
know, after whatever it was 1215
years of Trion's done.

806
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,760
And, yeah, I wanted to sort of
have a more grounded, yeah, so

807
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,440
stay a little regular line
moving forward.

808
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,440
So interesting enough was, you
know, Tim Lamb, who was a stage

809
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,720
manager on U2, got a job at Very
Light.

810
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,320
And it was Tim that got me a
foot in the door to go work at

811
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,320
Very Light in Los Angeles.
Interesting.

812
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,000
So, you know, and then, you
know, transitioned over to LA

813
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,720
and then I ran that shop for
about 6 years at Verilite.

814
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,960
And you know, we were sort of,
that was interesting because

815
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,600
that was sort of coming up to
the talent.

816
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,480
You know, that was early 2000s.
So you know, I finished Q2,

817
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,440
right?
It was 99.

818
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,920
So I think it was 2000.
I think I started at Verilight

819
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,200
and you know, I did did around
six years there.

820
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,640
Yeah.
And that was funny working in LA

821
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,640
and you know, you do the Bob
Barnard shows and, you know,

822
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:32,160
the, you know, the Grammys, the
Oscars and yeah, Dickinson and

823
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,360
you know, the just the craziness
of working in the LA market.

824
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,000
Yeah, because that is, it's its
own beast.

825
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,200
Yeah, but people don't
understand sometimes what it is

826
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,280
in the LA market.
But it's very interesting how

827
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,840
that functions from that
perspective because you know, a

828
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,400
lot of the design that happens
in the lighting side of things

829
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,080
is that you are you really?
They design in what I call situ

830
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,200
quite often.
It's not like on a prescribed

831
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,400
tour or production where you got
a definitive design and it stays

832
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,400
pretty regimated from the minute
you get it on the plot to the

833
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,600
minute you're out field.
Because quite often they're out

834
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,240
on site and they're making
institute decisions on where

835
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,000
they're putting fixtures and
doing everything else.

836
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,720
So you would always have to put
in a ton more cable and

837
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,720
additional fixtures TBD because
it's up to the designers, you

838
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:25,440
know, do you know ideas of where
they want to do it when you're

839
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,760
out on job sites?
So you know, and also very

840
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,480
demanding too on when they want
to see response times when they

841
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,880
need added of.
Course.

842
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,120
Yeah, yeah, You know, it's wild
too.

843
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,840
Like with Verilite, I had, I had
Dickinson on the podcast not

844
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,960
that long ago, I think maybe six
months ago or something, and we

845
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,960
were talking about the VL 5 and
just the sheer numbers.

846
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,200
And I, I think he threw a number
out and it just blew my mind

847
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,240
like of basically the number of
VL fives that he's rented

848
00:42:55,240 --> 00:43:00,960
overall, like just a, a
ridiculously huge number, you

849
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:01,320
know?
Yeah.

850
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,720
I mean, it was crazy, right?
It's like when you had Conti on

851
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:05,960
the other week, it was like, you
know, because a lot of the fires

852
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,080
have obviously converted to LED.
But yeah.

853
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,720
And it's funny, when I, when I
sort of came back to, well, came

854
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,640
into the POG fold, I sort of
walked back in the shop after

855
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,000
living very light.
And I said, oh, look, there's

856
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,120
fixtures I touched 20 years ago,
15 years ago.

857
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,680
They're still they're still
working.

858
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,720
Yeah, it is wild, isn't it?
It's it's pretty crazy.

859
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,760
Talk about a successful fixture,
though.

860
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,880
I mean, you build it, yes, what,
30 years ago or something and

861
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,480
it's still in use.
Well, I mean, it's got, it's got

862
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,080
one of those aesthetics that's
just not duplicated right now.

863
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,680
It's just the actual physical
look of the fixture itself.

864
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,120
And it was interesting when you
had Brickman on the other day

865
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,400
and you, you know, you think he
was calling VL 3S, but I think

866
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,520
it was twos and fours, right?
Yeah, you see the things.

867
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,520
But even for me, the VL 2 and
the VL 4 that the light source

868
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,120
and what that put out is still a
beautiful light source compared

869
00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:59,720
to some of the other stuff you
have today.

870
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,280
It's still, it's, that was
always the thing with verilite

871
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,360
was the optics to that sort of
fixture were second to none.

872
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,880
I mean, it was almost too good
quite often because you'd see

873
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,320
the imperfections come out on
the go.

874
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,680
Vote sometimes when you do it,
but I think I.

875
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,160
Think the thing that lost me
with the six or at least when

876
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,720
you go back and compare it now
to some of the things that are

877
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:23,880
out now, the small aperture like
just yeah isn't as pleasing to

878
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,520
me anymore.
You know, I love the big

879
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,160
aperture lights that are out
now.

880
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,320
They.
Are 100% yeah, and they keep

881
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,280
getting better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

882
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,600
You know, like that, that new
stuff from Ayrton just blows my

883
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,680
mind that Rivali and I don't
know what the other ones are

884
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,240
called.
There's a bigger one that just

885
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:43,120
came out, which is, oh God, it's
a track in South Africa or

886
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,000
something.
Oh, no, that's the other the

887
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,440
Kailami.
They they obviously everything

888
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,760
built around racing and stuff.
So I should know it, but I

889
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:51,600
don't.
Yeah.

890
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:56,520
So so now you've basically
completely transitioned.

891
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,440
You're off the road, you're
running shops for these big

892
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,960
lighting companies.
Yeah, I mean, it's like, you

893
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,480
know, I came and thrown around
Verilight or is the shop manager

894
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,080
there for six years.
So it's just putting product out

895
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,360
the door.
And you know, I ended up wanting

896
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,040
to go into project management,
right, Because that's, you know,

897
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,360
after touring for so long,
there's so there's a lot of

898
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,000
knowledge base.
It's so important when you're

899
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,720
working with your clients and
advancing jobs and doing all

900
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,400
things like, you know, I wanted
to sort of participate in the

901
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,680
beginning stages of developing a
project to avoid the heartache

902
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,280
you would quite often find
yourself in.

903
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,800
You'd go in rehearsals because
people weren't paying attention

904
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,160
to the details.
Yeah.

905
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,360
So, you know, when you go into
production design, am I in the

906
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,600
round?
Am I, you know, at the end of

907
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,040
the arena and then getting into
the devil in the details.

908
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:44,800
Right.
What's, How does the show go

909
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,720
together?
You've got the creative element

910
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:48,880
to the show that the designer
wants to meet, but then you've

911
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,760
got the practical elements that
still have to be meant putting

912
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,360
it in and out every day, putting
it on a trailer, a truck and

913
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,920
moving it, you know, from city
and the city.

914
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,080
And then depending on your
schedule, you're doing back to

915
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,800
backs.
If you design something, it's,

916
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,000
you know, you're still putting
shit up at, you know, 1:00 in

917
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,240
the yeah, sorry, at 4:00 or 5:00
in the afternoon, it's a

918
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:12,280
problem, right?
It's like you're burning your

919
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,120
crew out.
They're not getting any break.

920
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,680
And you really got to take into
a lot of things into

921
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,560
consideration when you're sort
of, you know, working on

922
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,440
finalizing my design is taking
in all those different elements,

923
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,120
right, Is, you know, am I, am I
loading in from state, upstage

924
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,840
right, upstage left, upstage
centre?

925
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,360
Am I designing a mother grid
that holds a whole arena floor

926
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,600
for two hours?
You know, what are the things,

927
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,800
how do you make things so
there's flexibility in what you

928
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:45,040
need to do each day so you you
can move more quickly depending

929
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,040
on the constraints of the
building or whatever it is

930
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,000
you're in.
Yeah, pretty much it's, you

931
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,960
know, that's the biggest for me
today, seeing where we are in

932
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,720
the industry and seeing the old
guard you jokes, your own piece

933
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:59,960
bugsies, you know, all the old,
all the old production managers

934
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,320
that have the craft because you
know what happened to them years

935
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:04,760
ago?
They actually spent their

936
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,840
journey with the bands expanding
at the same rate as a band did

937
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,720
and really, really understood
all the different nuances they

938
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,040
needed to to be successful right
to where they are today.

939
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,360
When I think some of the up and
coming production managers today

940
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,040
are sort of more so thrown into
the throes of all I'm doing a

941
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,280
club tour or a small, you know,
shed tour and suddenly my artist

942
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,280
has gone viral and now I'm doing
arenas and are they so?

943
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,040
Often now and they let.
The yeah, I mean.

944
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,600
Social media phenomenon.
You start out in clubs and you

945
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,920
end up in stadiums, you know?
Yeah, they they transition a lot

946
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,760
of these artists happens very
quickly.

947
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,000
I mean, Lady Gaga would be a
good one for me too, right?

948
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,760
I mean, you know, I remember
when I was a tight, you know,

949
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,440
that she started out as a a
lower tier, you know, production

950
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,400
budget.
And then she went through

951
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,080
nuclear within two years, Three
years.

952
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,280
Yeah.
I mean, it was sort of crazy the

953
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,440
level of production she went to.
Some of the country artists now

954
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,640
too, like some of these country
artists like Jelly Roll and some

955
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,320
of these guys like they, they're
not overnight successes because

956
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,160
like Jelly Roll's been doing
this for a long, long time, but

957
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,440
all of a sudden it just exploded
from social media and you know,

958
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,920
suddenly he's doing stadiums.
You know, it's these things are

959
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,800
crazy so.
You get, so you get, you get

960
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,680
that expansion and then you then
you then have you got the

961
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,320
capability of making those next
tier UPS in those different size

962
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,360
productions.
And I think, you know, for me

963
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,720
that becomes a challenge is, you
know, going back to is the

964
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:42,040
creative designer element
meeting the requirements of the

965
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,080
size of the tour and the the
schedule and all those sort of

966
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:47,720
things.
And you thought in all the

967
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,000
practicalities and you know, are
you able to drive better

968
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,760
conversations to avoid a lot of
heartache or potential issues

969
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,640
when you do get out into, into
the rehearsal side of things?

970
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,800
Because yeah, you'll get the
designer same thing, right?

971
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,960
Is that their, their trajectory
to Oh, you know, I've gone

972
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,000
through school, I've done my
stuff, I've loaded my stuff on

973
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,080
YouTube or whatever it is.
And now I'm doing these higher

974
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,560
level productions and you know,
I'm sort of designing without

975
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,160
any sort of practical knowledge
behind it, right.

976
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:20,160
So for me, if I'm working with a
designer like, you know, Spike

977
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:25,400
or Justin Collie's an example,
those guys did their graft in

978
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,360
setting up as lighting
technicians first.

979
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,880
So they clearly understood the
practicalities.

980
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,720
Yeah, but quite often what they
would design and they were

981
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:37,080
really great to collaborate with
on the Fender side of things

982
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,040
because you could speak at the
same level as and sort of work

983
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,320
for some real problems to get to
the right act on a good.

984
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:44,880
Point, you know, it's such a
good point.

985
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,880
I would guess especially some of
the younger designers coming up

986
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,760
are, are not as aware of how
hard it's going to be to put

987
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,520
this thing together every day
and take it apart every night

988
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,680
and they just designed something
pretty.

989
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,600
You know, you're correct.
They've just got the end result

990
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,200
up there.
I mean, you know, if I take my

991
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,720
time at Tait as an example, when
you're designing a Tait you're

992
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:10,200
you you've got even more things
you're laying in because I've

993
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,600
got to look at it from the
manufacturing standpoint, right?

994
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,880
I've got to look at it from the
implementation on show site.

995
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,280
How am I looking at the
ergonomics, how a stage hands

996
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,280
going to unload it to all those
sort of things?

997
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,320
How is it going to package?
How's it going to ship?

998
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,800
Is that you're an upper deck or
lower deck of an aircraft?

999
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,520
Is it going into your box, an
American box truck?

1000
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,280
All these things that you were
factoring into a design, custom

1001
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,560
design situation that you could
have taken into consideration.

1002
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:39,000
And you know, am I doing
something that takes the least

1003
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,280
amount of tools possible and the
least amount of human effort to

1004
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:45,840
pull it up and pull it down each
day?

1005
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,240
And you know, that's that's
where what production obviously

1006
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:50,840
wants to see with that because
that just.

1007
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,920
Well, yeah.
And there's, you know, I think

1008
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,520
like back in the day, call it,
you know, there were problems

1009
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:02,600
where as we were starting to
sort of go from the the simple

1010
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,520
box sort of set up to all of
this scenery and these weird

1011
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,440
shaped things and stuff, you
started having things that were

1012
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,680
designed shows that were
designed not for every venue,

1013
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,560
but for some venues.
And then you get to the first

1014
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,800
venue and you go, oh shit, it
doesn't fit.

1015
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:21,560
Yeah, yeah.
Like it fits physically in the

1016
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,280
building, but it doesn't fit in
the loading door or something,

1017
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,000
you know?
Like, yeah.

1018
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,800
And well, so it's funny because
I did, it was a Goo Goo Goals

1019
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,120
tour.
And you know, we had the Maya or

1020
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,280
the Maya 10s or whatever.
They had huge, they had huge

1021
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,480
prison stuff.
And it was literally, you know,

1022
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,360
to get him through the door,
there was a couple of shits that

1023
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:43,680
we did where it was a real
problem.

1024
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,720
And you'd have to, you'd have to
change your loading based on

1025
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:48,520
that, right?
I'll, I'd have to actually get

1026
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,720
the speakers in first because
there's no part quite wise for

1027
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:54,840
them to get round if I put the
lighting in first.

1028
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,880
So.
Oh, Jesus, We'd have to take

1029
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,680
into those sort of things into
consideration when you go into

1030
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,040
the building and it goes back to
the same thing.

1031
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,280
Or even back when I took it,
right, You still had to have a

1032
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,720
plan, Bab and C, Right.
What am I downsizing the ring to

1033
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:07,440
for this?
Yeah.

1034
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:08,920
Yeah.
We're only going to put up the,

1035
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:10,960
you know, the front and back
trust.

1036
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,600
We're going to miss the mid
trust or, you know, the side

1037
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,360
trust or whatever it is.
Yeah.

1038
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,240
And still be able to do do all
those sort of things.

1039
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,640
So what did you do when you were
at TAP?

1040
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,840
So I brought, oh, it's just
enough.

1041
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,640
You know, when I finished at
Verilight, I went over to Ed and

1042
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,160
Ted's and I worked there with
Donnie Ladico and Ted Fowler and

1043
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,120
fun.
And that was actually one of my

1044
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,280
favorite parts in my career
because we are a smaller company

1045
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,080
boutique.
We did a lot of large acts, you

1046
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,720
know, you know, Eagles, Billy
Joel, John, we had some pretty

1047
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:47,120
good acts and we were very good
at maintaining that sort of

1048
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,640
stuff.
You know, when I was working

1049
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,960
with Spike and Justin, I used to
do a lot of collaboration with

1050
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,560
tape on the tours that we did.
So, you know, I'd be on the

1051
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,440
phone with Adam Davis or whoever
the design team was on

1052
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,800
integrated because that, you
know, for me on the lighting

1053
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,280
perspective, I always wanted to
say, is there an opportunity to

1054
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,560
have some custom things made
that really make the

1055
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,960
installation out on job site
really easy?

1056
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,080
And I think it was slide that
sort of mentioned Adam because

1057
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,880
at the time Tit's model was
changing as well, right?

1058
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,280
Where there are pretty much an
end to point sale where they

1059
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,160
sort of had to now integrate
with the changing model of the

1060
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,800
clients and say, hey, I'm not
necessarily going to drop a

1061
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,520
large check for an end to point
sale to a whole set.

1062
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,880
I'm interested in partial, but
I'll rent the rest.

1063
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,240
Yeah.
So, you know, I sort of asked me

1064
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:33,680
to come in and be the general
manager and start running the

1065
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,480
rental side of that company and
sort of building the inventory,

1066
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,480
setting up the AMS, doing those
sort of things.

1067
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,080
And I ended up doing quite a lot
of other things as well.

1068
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:46,480
I sort of was pushed where they
needed me to, to put out

1069
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,320
whatever fire was.
So it became the, you know, the

1070
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,360
director for automation there
for a while.

1071
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,680
So I was heavily involved in the
Nam Hoist and the performer

1072
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,520
flying side of things and
actively participated in.

1073
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,360
Very cool.
All of that sort of stuff.

1074
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,440
So yeah, that was that would.
Be fun different.

1075
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,360
Well, it is different because
you go from a commodity based

1076
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,480
sort of situation where you know
your design stuff, it's very

1077
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,480
much you know already you're
working with things that are

1078
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,040
already being designed in
manufacture.

1079
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,520
Yeah, you got 4 products.
How many of these do you want?

1080
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:19,480
Yeah.
Exactly.

1081
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,040
So then you get thrown into this
environment where everything,

1082
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,640
every day is so different.
I mean, you know, would be

1083
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,120
amazing.
What I'd watch going for that

1084
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,920
place was because you know, one
day you'd be doing Kylie

1085
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,320
Minogue, which is all these
water fountains, you'd have a

1086
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,760
lift in a swimming pool and
you'd have these water jets that

1087
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,560
all had to be controlled and
automated.

1088
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,800
And then you'd go to, you know,
you know, go back to Justin

1089
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,840
Timberlake, an 88 foot bridge
laser tracked going down the

1090
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,480
full length of the arena.
And you would just everything

1091
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,280
was so different and they had
its own set of challenges and

1092
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,800
complexities to it.
I mean, when you go there, you

1093
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,760
were in the pressure cooker
because you got a, you were

1094
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,760
designing things in a very short
time time frame and to a very

1095
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,800
high standard to what you're
trying to do.

1096
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:08,320
And that's, you know, that's it
was just, you know, one of the

1097
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,040
probably my best experiences
just from a learning perspective

1098
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,200
to walk in and sort of feel and
see that.

1099
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,280
And you get a different
understanding of different

1100
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,440
aspects of the business that
weren't really seeing there

1101
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:19,720
before.
And you have a greater

1102
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,000
appreciation for from from that
perspective.

1103
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,280
So that.
Would be fun plus a fun time

1104
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,280
because it wasn't like it was.
Probably quite corporate by

1105
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,560
then, but nothing like what it
is today obviously.

1106
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,480
Yeah.
I mean, obviously I was in the

1107
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:33,760
infancy of that, interesting
enough.

1108
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,280
I mean, you know, Michael was
obviously still around quite a

1109
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,760
bit.
And, you know, you know, and

1110
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,240
Adam and Winky and, you know,
that they were in that

1111
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:45,880
transition because I think at
that point we sold it to Rocket

1112
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,160
Cargo.
At the time that was acquisition

1113
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,560
by them, which was by another
parent PC company.

1114
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,520
And then, yeah, you know, and
for me, I ended up leaving

1115
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,040
because, you know, my family's
based here in California.

1116
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,640
So we decided by what?
So we actually wouldn't move

1117
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,480
back.
So I made the decision that it

1118
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,880
was, you know, time to move.
Yeah, it's probably hard for a

1119
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,480
California person to live over
there in.

1120
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,160
Litters joined by the time in
litters.

1121
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,600
Don't get me wrong right?
We were in AI was on a farm.

1122
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,000
I was stuck between two Amish
farmers.

1123
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,920
I had this little 8 acre piece
of paradise for me.

1124
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,720
He missed the Amish.
Yeah, it was, it was.

1125
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,360
It's just enough.
We used to have a vegetable

1126
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,800
patch in the back, back of my
property and I would have the

1127
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,040
Amish neighbour come over with
his mules and his plow as I was

1128
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,720
coming up and he would basically
plow my garden bed so I could

1129
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:37,080
plant my food for the, for the,
you know, that's spring or

1130
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,040
summer.
I mean when you grow your own

1131
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,120
food it is night and day
difference to wealth.

1132
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,640
The of course, yeah.
At the supermarket and it's

1133
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,480
noticeably.
Love to do that.

1134
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,040
I would love to do that.
Yeah.

1135
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,640
That's, that's one of my dreams
is to, you know, have one of

1136
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,000
these sort of regenerative,
regenerative farms, you know,

1137
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,200
where you, you grow your own
food and everyone talks about

1138
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,520
how just how much better it
tastes and how much better it is

1139
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,400
for you and for the environment
and all of that stuff.

1140
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,640
I try to buy that stuff, like I
try to buy from regenerative

1141
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,320
Farms, but yeah, it's hard.
You know, there's a lot of

1142
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,840
people in this country and if
everybody wants grass fed beef,

1143
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,400
you're going to have a hard time
finding it, right?

1144
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,840
Yeah, 100% So, yeah.
Yeah.

1145
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,840
So, you know, that was, you
know, that was cool.

1146
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,400
It was just a different aspect.
You know, we had horses and

1147
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,560
three horses on there.
My wife took care of all that

1148
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,200
sort of stuff.
So yeah, it was a it was a

1149
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,760
different experience.
You would get into the chaos of

1150
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,920
Titan, like I said in the
pressure cooker and then you'd

1151
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,600
step out and it was just like
immediate zoned out.

1152
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,400
You just hear the horse drawn
carriages go on the road as you

1153
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,640
lied in bed at night and stuff.
It was it was different you.

1154
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,480
Know your wife's not in the
business, is she?

1155
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,160
No, no, no, no.
Good for you.

1156
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,720
Yeah, those two, those two
people in the business family

1157
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,280
scare me.
I don't know how the hell they

1158
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,760
believe.
Yeah, no, my, my wife said it

1159
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:59,120
was a successful real estate
broker and yeah, so yeah.

1160
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,040
So where'd you go after Tate?
I lost my.

1161
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,280
Place in your massive resume
here yeah and well it's

1162
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,000
interesting it's sort of it's
it's been quite the journey in

1163
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,320
the different companies so I
ended up coming back to LA yeah

1164
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,480
it was a very short period at a
company called DPS and I'm not

1165
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,280
going to get into the politics
of what happened there but yeah

1166
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,640
interestingly enough I ended up
getting a job offer to go over

1167
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,120
to the video clipping rituals
yeah and I ended up because you

1168
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,320
know I before I left Tito I was
speaking with Vince and Susan

1169
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,880
and you know they were
interested and finally the

1170
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,520
planets aligned they said well
come on on board and I came over

1171
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,440
to VR and I'm sort of put in
charge of running the global

1172
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,440
lighting division at the time
you know that literally you know

1173
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,560
it's funny when I went into
initially interviewed it was a

1174
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:53,640
day that Vincent sold it to to
their VC so it was the CEO of

1175
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,200
the time Steve Hankins first day
was.

1176
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,200
The same day.
Yeah, first day and.

1177
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,000
Then my guy.
Looked in there for the

1178
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,480
interview and then, yeah, it's,
you know, that that whole thing

1179
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,520
has been a journey as well, you
know, because I literally spent

1180
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,280
probably a year, year and a half
in the lighting side of things.

1181
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:13,440
And then, you know, fortunately,
you know, so the industry knows

1182
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,960
it went nose up.
And I was asked to sort of step

1183
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,360
in and sort of see the company
through bankruptcy and then

1184
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,560
through acquisition emerge with
POG.

1185
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,680
And it was funny because I had a
conversation with Jerry Harris.

1186
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,600
Something was in Dallas.
And I was saying, you know,

1187
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,280
well, I was sort of laughing.
And I said, you know, in my

1188
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,440
career, I've always stayed one
step ahead of everything.

1189
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,120
Your acquisition emerged with
the companies I used to work at

1190
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:38,240
before you bought it.
Right.

1191
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,760
So I left light and Sound design
basically a year before he

1192
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,000
bought them.
I left Verilight a year before

1193
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,040
he ended up buying Verilight.
Yeah.

1194
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,160
And then finally caught up where
I was at a company where, you

1195
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,080
know, I hadn't moved on or done
that sort of stuff.

1196
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,600
Yeah, you should probably just
plan with him every time you're

1197
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,480
going to move.
You know, just like, hey, I'm

1198
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,120
thinking of going here.
What do you think?

1199
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,240
Yeah.
Tell me what you think.

1200
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:01,640
In other words, are you buying
it?

1201
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,400
Because just move me over there
instead, you know, it'll be

1202
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:09,440
easier save a step.
But so you were at VER sort of

1203
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,800
after like because going in
there in any kind of an

1204
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:17,480
operational role like back, I
don't know, call it 10-15 years

1205
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,280
ago would have been really hard
because I remember they had no

1206
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,160
clue.
Like they didn't know how much

1207
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,520
inventory they had.
They didn't know where it was.

1208
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:29,040
They didn't know.
They their inventory management

1209
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,600
system seemed to be like on
napkins or something.

1210
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,320
Well, they they started out on a
program called Rental Point and

1211
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,880
then Vince decided to go to a
proprietary system, right?

1212
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,560
So yeah, his own developed
system called Rev, which is the

1213
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,840
reversed.
So how?

1214
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,000
Ingenious.
Yes.

1215
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,840
So, you know, and I think at
some point he thought that was

1216
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,080
an opportunity to market it on
as just a an IMS for general

1217
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,920
public consumption and so on.
And you know, for me, it was

1218
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,640
interesting, right, because my
whole career was based around

1219
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,480
production based businesses to
where I was at leading up to the

1220
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,040
VR was really my first
experience walking into a sort

1221
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,760
of a hybrid, what it becomes a
hybrid of dry hire and

1222
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:17,040
production business.
And these have very different

1223
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,960
operational implications as to
how you have to service it.

1224
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,280
I mean, the first thing I sort
of had to get my head around

1225
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,480
when I first joined video, it
was just the volume of stuff

1226
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,280
they would move around the
network on a daily basis.

1227
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,480
Because, you know, it was really
everything was sort of the

1228
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,040
salesman was the effectively the
rental agent was effectively the

1229
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:40,160
logistics manager, the AMS
manager, everything in one, you

1230
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,600
know, one position scheduling
the gear in the AMS to move

1231
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,680
around to sell these jobs.
So you were saying 5 volumes of

1232
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,280
equipment transferring from 1
branch to another to, to make

1233
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,960
demand.
And you know, the dry business

1234
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,640
has a different expectation
obviously to production.

1235
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,320
It's very short term, it's very
last minute.

1236
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,080
You can have an order drop in
at, you know, 3:00 in the

1237
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,480
afternoon for a 5:00 delivery
sort of approach.

1238
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,560
So you have a different
requirement on how you look at

1239
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,640
your equipment from a ready
status and how you have to

1240
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,280
service that.
So operationally, there's some

1241
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,960
real challenges to mixing both
and not degrading one for the

1242
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:18,840
other.
Yeah.

1243
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:22,040
How do you successfully still
manage those types of

1244
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:23,200
situations?
So, you know, it's the same

1245
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,960
thing, You know, we talk about
camp eggs, you know, and I've,

1246
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,840
you know, this is a conversation
that comes up because, yeah, you

1247
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,200
know, it's interesting.
I've heard some of your other

1248
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:31,440
podcast.
It's quite true, right?

1249
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,800
It's the, the trouble that you
have with CapEx is that I it's

1250
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,520
what we have to spend today to
be relevant is astronomically

1251
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,080
expensive.
It's crazy, yeah.

1252
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,200
And so.
Generally get the return on

1253
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,600
investment you would like to see
for the investment that you're

1254
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,120
putting in because you know,
it's interesting though, it's

1255
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,120
funny how the market is sort of
allowing itself to sort of

1256
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,880
dictate, well, I'm not going to
pay this, but you're not

1257
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,360
actually going to get the return
on your investment because I'm

1258
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,200
sort of trying to set the market
price for it.

1259
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:02,240
And it's like, you know, it's
like go back a few years, like,

1260
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,480
you know, at one point fence by
the decision.

1261
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,760
I'm going to corner the market
with Win Vision products, right?

1262
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,480
And he actually did, he got it
in such volume in mass and you

1263
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,080
had a long return on that
investment.

1264
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,440
It was he.
Did, yeah. 567 years right

1265
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,440
there's of of continual rental
and you know, I think.

1266
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,280
Even though everyone figured out
where he was buying it you.

1267
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,480
Know what it was and.
Could buy it direct and

1268
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:26,800
everything else he yeah, he did
pretty well with it.

1269
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:28,000
Yeah, he did.
Yeah.

1270
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,440
That was one of, you know, his,
his six.

1271
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,680
And you know, you look at any
entrepreneurial owner, they'll

1272
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,240
just like, you know, Rusty and
Fairlight.

1273
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,040
Am I in an opportune window
point in history where I can

1274
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,760
sort of, you know, take a large
market share with either, you

1275
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,400
know, you know, designing,
manufacturing my own stuff, or

1276
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:49,280
am I going to invest in a
product where I can corner that

1277
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,320
market and hold it for for a
period of time?

1278
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:54,840
And it's getting harder and
harder to do that today just

1279
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,280
because of the life cycle of how
quick since the technology

1280
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,000
changes.
I mean, you know, for you, right

1281
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:04,840
gear source, you know, for me as
a in an asset mindset, you

1282
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,520
already have to know what you're
doing with the asset before you

1283
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,880
even take it in the doors.
How am I getting rid of it?

1284
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:16,280
What's the life cycle or the
opportunity for the second hand

1285
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,360
or the used asset sale?
Yeah, yeah.

1286
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,080
Because you've got those curves
on the just like a car is that

1287
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,120
you're, you've got that window
of opportunity where you're

1288
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:28,040
going to get the biggest amount
of return of, of that used asset

1289
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:29,720
sale.
And when is it time to sort of

1290
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,080
cash it out and have a, have a
have a real sort of strategy to

1291
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,400
that you've already defined
before you've even ingested

1292
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,000
something disposing of it?
Am I selling it?

1293
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,160
At what point in this life am I
doing it?

1294
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,080
The most successful model I ever
saw, and I hate to give him

1295
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,800
credit you know, but is Bob
Cannon.

1296
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,960
Mike Cannon, the the old bash
model years and years ago where

1297
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,600
basically no matter what it was,
it was for sale in two years.

1298
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,000
Yeah.
And that included the hottest

1299
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,280
lights of the time.
You know, like I remember

1300
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,160
because I worked for high end at
the time and they were selling

1301
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:06,280
cyber lights used.
And they, they beat us on deals

1302
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,840
like where, you know, and
because they were selling them

1303
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:11,160
at dealer cost, but they were
selling them to end users at

1304
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,600
dealer cost used, right.
And so we would lose a deal for

1305
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,320
100 cyber lights.
And I'd call up Canon and say,

1306
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,000
what the hell are you doing?
And he'd be like, you know what,

1307
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,680
you guys will get an order from
us, don't worry, You know,

1308
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,960
because what they would do is as
they were selling them, they

1309
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,640
were buying new ones at dealer
cost.

1310
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,200
But at least, I mean, their
model was just incredible to me.

1311
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,880
It was just an incredible.
And by the way, Mike Cannon does

1312
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,680
it the same way today.
It's just the numbers are way

1313
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,200
shittier today than they used to
be.

1314
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:39,440
Yeah, I don't understand.
So.

1315
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,720
Because I've got a bit of
admiration for that because

1316
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,360
that's truly it, right?
You're sort of you're leveraging

1317
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,880
the idea on buying in bulk at a
lower price.

1318
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,160
I have the idea that it's always
available to sell and and know

1319
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,440
that I can replenish that with a
new inventory.

1320
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,160
It keeps my inventory new and
fresh and I'm still getting a

1321
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:02,960
profit on the used asset salad.
You're minimalizing your, your

1322
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,040
utilization cost basically
because if you look at it and

1323
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,480
say I'm going to use it for two
years, what's that going to cost

1324
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,480
me?
And all you're doing is making

1325
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,800
that number smaller and
therefore hopefully making it

1326
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,440
more profitable.
But yeah, I mean, it's the same

1327
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:18,600
thing.
Like I, I've had this

1328
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,040
conversation with Jerry, and I'm
not trying to do a sales pitch

1329
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,400
here, but I've had this
conversation with Jerry where

1330
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:28,000
it's like, Jerry, why don't you
look at your CapEx, carve out 10

1331
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:31,760
percent, 20% of your CapEx for
used gear instead of new.

1332
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,160
And you know, I understand the
leverage he's using at the bank

1333
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:36,840
and all of the different things
he's doing.

1334
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:41,880
And you can't, you know, you
can't, you can't do some of that

1335
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,560
magic on used gear.
I get it, that's already been

1336
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:49,600
depreciated etcetera, etcetera.
But but if you can, instead of

1337
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,720
paying $10,000 for a brand new
light fixture, if you can pay

1338
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:57,920
7000 or 6000 and get a used one
and rent it for a year for the

1339
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,520
same rental rates, you would
have rented a new one and then

1340
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:04,920
sell it for somewhere around 80
to 100% of what you paid for it.

1341
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,680
Doesn't that make a little bit
of sense somewhere in that math

1342
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,440
somewhere?
And the generally the answer is

1343
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,520
if you're call it a small to mid
size rental company and let's

1344
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:21,000
say under, you know, 25,000,000
a year or something, it makes a

1345
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,480
hell of a lot of sense.
But if you're one of these big

1346
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,840
companies using, you know,
either private equity or public

1347
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,800
money or whatever it is, it
doesn't make sense.

1348
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,440
Maybe, you know, it doesn't make
as much sense anyways.

1349
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,520
And it's because of how leverage
works.

1350
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:36,520
Yeah.
So yeah.

1351
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,680
Yeah, I mean, the scale is
pretty.

1352
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:40,680
I mean, we, we do.
I mean, I think, you know, I

1353
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:45,600
think Conti said we did like 241
shows a day or whatever it was.

1354
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,600
That blew my mind.
Yeah, that blew my mind.

1355
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:49,800
I'll.
Do in a week I can move anywhere

1356
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,040
between half a million to 1.2
million scans in a week and

1357
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,640
anywhere from 500 to third tech
1400 orders in a way that was.

1358
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,040
Insane.
That is just wild to me.

1359
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,440
Those are crazy numbers in our
industry, which is a small

1360
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,000
industry if you think of it, you
know, compared to others, it's

1361
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,560
pretty small.
But that just blows my mind.

1362
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,520
The other stat was, what did he
say, 100,000 moving lights?

1363
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,600
You guys have over 100,000
moving lights?

1364
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,560
I think he said yeah, just wild,
crazy stuff.

1365
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,880
It's a yeah, it's, it's a yeah,
30 plus years of acquisitioning,

1366
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:24,640
merging.
It's a large inventory base.

1367
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:26,920
Yeah, yeah, to, to, to manage
to.

1368
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,680
So, you know, and it's, you
know, that's the usual

1369
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,680
challenge, right.
Is that always, am I in

1370
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,359
possession at the right time of
asset at the right time.

1371
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:37,120
And so true.
Yeah, it's what most companies

1372
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,160
always struggle with because you
never get the dates to fall

1373
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:41,319
where you want to, to optimize
what you have.

1374
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:45,439
As always, crossover where I've
got a sub rental, you know I've

1375
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,840
got to go put my hand in my
pocket and buy more.

1376
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:51,840
Yeah, yeah, I know.
It's it's a crazy balancing act

1377
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,319
and it's not.
The numbers just have gotten so

1378
01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:57,640
much crazier and, and the simple
math is like a Cyberlight used

1379
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:03,000
to cost you call it $5000 and
you rented it out for $300.00 a

1380
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:07,160
week and you sold it two or
three years later for very close

1381
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,840
to $5000.
Now that same Cyberlite, which

1382
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,040
is a Mac whatever and Ayrton
whatever, a Verilite whatever is

1383
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:19,640
$10,000.
You're renting it for 175 a week

1384
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:25,040
or 1:50 or 200 a week, and the
value is dropping more quickly

1385
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,960
generally, and you know, all the
math is kind of screwing you.

1386
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,319
Yeah, it is.
It's a it's, yeah, now it is.

1387
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:36,439
I mean, look, we've been in a
very tough year and I've, I know

1388
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:38,560
that too, right, Is that it's
been a race to the bottom, I

1389
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,160
think for most vendors.
I'm just trying to secure the

1390
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,000
work.
And, you know, we're all

1391
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,960
obviously hoping for a, you
know, a prosperous 2025.

1392
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,000
But yeah, you know, I think, you
know, it's more indicative for

1393
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:53,359
me of, you know, because when we
talk about assets, you always

1394
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:56,120
got the cost of the asset
itself, but then you got all the

1395
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,200
other peripheral stuff that
supports it, around it and what

1396
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,160
it takes operationally to
support it, what you're doing in

1397
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,920
parts and everything else.
And sometimes it gets missed as

1398
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,040
to what the real cost is of what
you're doing to get it out to

1399
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,560
market and making sure that
you're making the margin to

1400
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,680
revenue to cover your cost of
what's really going.

1401
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,880
On and that's true.
It's see, that's the one thing

1402
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,880
for me, you know, it's funny
because we get into VCP, you

1403
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:24,560
know, VC, P/E, you know, I, I go
with the saying, right, EBITDAR

1404
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,360
is an opinion, cash is, is fact,
right.

1405
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:28,400
So.
So true.

1406
01:10:28,480 --> 01:10:32,520
Yeah, it's net free cash flow is
generally what is driving your

1407
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,280
decisions on how you're going to
look at your CapEx and what you

1408
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:37,000
need to do.
But I think for us as an

1409
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,320
industry, we've done a poor job
of educating our clients and

1410
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,400
sometimes ourselves on what
things truly cost.

1411
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:48,360
And, you know, how do you
impasse all that on to make sure

1412
01:10:48,440 --> 01:10:51,200
that people are willing to pay
for it and that you're getting

1413
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:53,480
your cost covered so you're a
profitable business?

1414
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:55,680
Yeah.
So I'm not going to mention any

1415
01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:01,400
names or anything, but I, I
recently was made aware of, call

1416
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:05,120
it a, a letter that went out
from a certain company CEO in

1417
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:10,280
our industry to their staff and
they've lost money.

1418
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,560
And generally the, and, and, you
know, they're in a really bad

1419
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,200
place right now.
Could be bankruptcy, could be a

1420
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,400
lot of things, but and they lost
money.

1421
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,720
And so he comes out and says
basically everything's OK, Puff

1422
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,280
of smoke, everything's OK.
Actually, if you look at it,

1423
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:32,200
we've grown this year.
Our revenue is higher this year

1424
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,640
than it was last year.
I mean, your profits have

1425
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:36,400
tanked.
You know, it's not how much you

1426
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,240
make, it's how much you keep,
you know, at the end of the day,

1427
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:44,640
that's what matters, right?
And so I just like this is the

1428
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,720
wrong mentality, like I'd.
Rather.

1429
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:49,480
Say, hey, you know what, our top
line sales are down, but you

1430
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:53,000
guys killed it this year and we
actually made more money than we

1431
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,280
did last year.
You know, that's amazing.

1432
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,640
Like that's obviously a win win
for everything because smaller

1433
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:04,280
revenue means less inventory and
less people and less buildings

1434
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:05,360
and all the hard costs.
Yeah.

1435
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,120
Less cost, yeah, Yeah.
Less cost.

1436
01:12:07,480 --> 01:12:10,640
And when you're in the VCOP
environment, you're always on

1437
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:15,120
this perpetual mill of starting
to exceed the next quarter or,

1438
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:18,560
you know, infinite revenue
growth continuously.

1439
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,040
At some point you hit a
threshold where that's just not

1440
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,960
sustainable or yeah, you know,
you, you're exhausted where

1441
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,880
you're going to get out of the
market to do that.

1442
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:29,920
So, you know, for me, it's
about, you know, how do you

1443
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,720
improve the the quality, the
balance and to your point, come

1444
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,480
back to margin and you know, am
I making money?

1445
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,280
Yeah, that that to me is that's
as long as you're covering your

1446
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,800
costs of of what you're doing
and and making a profit on the

1447
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:44,720
top of it.
And that's a fundamental out of

1448
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,080
all the metrics and KB IS that
get thrown out to businesses

1449
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,640
that we're all asked to look at
the very most fundamental one.

1450
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,360
Do I have money in the bank or
not?

1451
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,920
You know, I have cash is is
really the one that is of.

1452
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:57,600
Course, of course.
Yeah.

1453
01:12:57,600 --> 01:12:59,080
I mean, take it away and see
what you do.

1454
01:12:59,480 --> 01:13:02,640
Hey, you know, I mean, maybe
venture capital would invest in

1455
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,120
you or whatever, like as venture
capital loves to spend money on

1456
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:10,000
things that don't make money,
but but eventually they're

1457
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,240
expecting it to make money, just
not today necessarily.

1458
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:14,520
Right.
That's interesting, right,

1459
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:16,840
Because you know, the, I think
also, you know, I was listening

1460
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,360
on one of the radio shows the
other day and they were talking

1461
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:23,400
about, you know, the, the, the,
the PAVC sort of model of, you

1462
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,320
know, it used to be five to
seven years, then it went down

1463
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:29,160
to three to five years on, You
know, what I'm investing in.

1464
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,520
When am I selling it off to the
next, next investor?

1465
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:33,520
Yeah.
And I think what, what's

1466
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,640
happened now is that three to
five model is they're still

1467
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,960
holding companies well past that
into the seven 8-9 year range.

1468
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,640
Yeah, probably.
And, you know, some of the other

1469
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:45,880
companies are just going in
there and it's like, you know,

1470
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,360
so what's going to happen?
Yeah, you know, well, they'll be

1471
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:52,280
in into that, you know I don't.
Know what's going to happen with

1472
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:55,600
the big one out there right now
that's for sale and, and

1473
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,680
constantly in rumors of who's
going to buy it and how they're

1474
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,160
going to buy it.
And, and so, yeah, I mean, to

1475
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:05,200
me, you know, it's, it's wacky
math.

1476
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,320
It's all crazy math at this
point that we're dealing with.

1477
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,800
And I think at the end of the
day, a successful company is, is

1478
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,800
one that buys gear, has a great
plan for, like you said,

1479
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:19,280
disposal of that gear and also
how to make money and how much

1480
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,680
money I need to make.
And, and, you know, a

1481
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,800
willingness to say no.
Like as a business owner, one of

1482
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,280
the most difficult, difficult
things to do is not to say yes,

1483
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,240
but to say no.
And and in this industry,

1484
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,600
especially, like when somebody's
going here you go like, I don't

1485
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,960
know if you were at VER, but I
heard one of the things that

1486
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:41,640
really hurt VER was the what was
the moving like that you bought

1487
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,480
like thousands of for Bruno
Mars.

1488
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:47,560
Oh God, it.
Was an LED fixture.

1489
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,960
I forget what it was, but it was
thousands of them.

1490
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,400
And I, I heard that that Bruno
Mars deal was one of the ones

1491
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,240
that kind of broke the camel's
back.

1492
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:01,400
And it was just, you know, it
was just so asset heavy and

1493
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:03,360
priced low.
Yeah.

1494
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:05,080
Well, it goes back to the same
thing, right?

1495
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,480
If I'm spending my EBITDA
contribution to the cost of the

1496
01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:11,760
CapEx and it's not going to end
well, Yeah, it's there's some

1497
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:15,120
basic principles that need to be
followed when you're sort of

1498
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,640
looking at how you're spending
your cash and yeah, what you're

1499
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,360
going to commit to from that
perspective.

1500
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:23,480
You know, so that's always the
challenge for when you're

1501
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:26,680
working with clients and saying
can you always look for the

1502
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:29,880
upsell on trying to work with
stuff that you have today versus

1503
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,440
going out and buying you.
And some of the pressures on the

1504
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:37,160
designer side of things has
changed now where they're more

1505
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,360
open to doing that because they
are constrained by the books of

1506
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,240
their.
Of it kind of fixed a little bit

1507
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,160
of that stuff, especially
initially, like initially it

1508
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:48,760
seemed like you guys could all
get away with kind of renting

1509
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,360
whatever was in your shop, you
know, because they were just so

1510
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,600
desperate to put something out
the door, right?

1511
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:57,080
But but then it seemed like
everybody got a little spoiled

1512
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,640
again and said, no, it has to be
Model 3.

1513
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,200
I won't take the Model 2.5.
It's got to be Model 3, you

1514
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:07,200
know, or else I'll take my show
to Christie Lights or somebody

1515
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:10,960
else, right?
And that stuff to me is what's

1516
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:14,040
got to really come to an end.
And I, I know that, you know,

1517
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,840
the manufacturers who are all
friends of mine don't like when

1518
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:18,680
I say that, but I think it's
true.

1519
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:20,840
Like you can't just keep shoving
new fixtures up.

1520
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:22,720
Everybody's 100.
Percent, yeah.

1521
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,600
That's the, I think Steve
Richards brought that out of his

1522
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,520
comments back in the pandemic
saying, yeah, well, actually it

1523
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,560
might have been actually the
bankruptcy going back to the

1524
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:35,360
idea of you keep forcing a new
product at such a a quick rate.

1525
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:37,920
The the people that are actually
having the front of cash to do

1526
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,000
it and it's just not getting
their returns and you're just,

1527
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,760
you're sort of biting the hand
that feeds you at some point.

1528
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:45,360
It's tough.
It's, it's hard because you have

1529
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:49,240
so many companies out there now,
like whether it's audio, like

1530
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,440
let's pick on audio for a bit.
You know, everyone, like I, I

1531
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:54,960
talked about this, I don't know,
last week, a couple weeks ago

1532
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:59,080
with someone about these line
array systems where they're 2,

1533
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,960
two and a half, $1,000,000 to
buy a line array system.

1534
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:07,280
And you go from the model J to
the model K to the model L and

1535
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,240
it's coming very quickly.
And if you want the Academy

1536
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:12,960
Awards this year, you better
have the model L or whatever.

1537
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,080
I'm making things up.
Yeah.

1538
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:15,600
But.
But you know what I mean?

1539
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,600
Like, and then they're stuffing
the L series up your ass and you

1540
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:22,520
go to sell the the K that you
just finished paying for and you

1541
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:26,320
find out it's only selling for
six or $700,000 now.

1542
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,400
And you're like, holy shit, you
know, that was expensive.

1543
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:31,840
So and video's the same thing
now.

1544
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:34,680
I mean, like these tiles that
you guys used to rent for four

1545
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:38,760
or 500 bucks are 40 bucks now,
and you know what I'm talking

1546
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:40,280
about.
Obviously, I mean it's.

1547
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:42,720
Yeah, it's way too much.
Yeah, 100%.

1548
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:45,400
Yeah.
I mean, LE DS a real painful

1549
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:46,960
one.
And particularly too, because

1550
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:50,840
you've got, they've gone to such
a high definition pixel now that

1551
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:54,120
and particularly on the
practical implications of that

1552
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:56,520
from a day-to-day management of
loading it in.

1553
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,920
Loading it, the higher the pixel
pitch, the harder it is to

1554
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,320
ensure the integrity of it
because your cost to maintain

1555
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:05,560
and keep that product up or
through the roof, because it's

1556
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,800
really something that's more
purposely designed for what I

1557
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,040
call a permanent installation.
Yeah, I'm going to sort of,

1558
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,200
yeah, I'm going to sort of still
define this because I want that

1559
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,840
level of definition on my or
whatever it is.

1560
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:20,080
And you know, on the vendor side
of things, you end up having to

1561
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:23,080
carry the stick on, you know
just how hard it is to keep that

1562
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:27,400
packaged in in in rentable order
doesn't have fragile it is.

1563
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:30,200
Well and the crazy thing is like
the reality of all this and I'm

1564
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,960
not arguing with designers who
know way more than me, but from

1565
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:37,280
what I know, the audience member
in the front row isn't going to

1566
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:40,920
know the difference between 1.9
mil and 3.9 mil.

1567
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:42,720
Yeah, yeah.
You know what I'm saying, right?

1568
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,680
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, which might be, which

1569
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,320
might be $2,000,000 in cost, you
know?

1570
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,800
So and that goes back to on just
the CapEx conversation again,

1571
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:52,320
right.
So if you look at and it's

1572
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:54,480
pertinent to different business
markets, right.

1573
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:57,560
So you know what is a
requirement in the music market

1574
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:02,080
because the designers want that
high end fixture, that ten

1575
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,880
$12,000 fixture versus I can go
into a corporate or a dry higher

1576
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,760
environment in hotel and staging
where I only need a $6000

1577
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:11,280
fixture.
That's the same thing 'cause

1578
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:13,280
they don't care.
They don't need well, I need

1579
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:15,320
this last thing.
I just need to know it puts

1580
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,360
light on the stage or the set or
whatever it is.

1581
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,080
And yeah, I really don't need
that.

1582
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,640
And that's that's where the
challenge becomes when you're

1583
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,280
looking at CapEx expense,
particularly on a company that's

1584
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:29,080
multifaceted in the different.
Businesses, and I'm careful to

1585
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,760
say this, but the, the probably
the most profitable time was

1586
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:34,880
when the designer worked for the
lighting shop.

1587
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,400
Yeah, you know, because then
they just looked around and

1588
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:40,280
went, OK, I got four of those.
I got 12 of those over there.

1589
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:43,160
I got 100 of those over there
and they put a rig together.

1590
01:19:43,480 --> 01:19:46,040
Yeah, well, and.
If you get the opportunity to go

1591
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,480
back to the upsell, right, it's
the first thing you would as a

1592
01:19:48,480 --> 01:19:51,800
salesperson you want to try and
do, right, is that, look, if

1593
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:56,720
I've got product on the shelf
that I can put to you at a lower

1594
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,640
cost or do it without the
additional need, you'll get the

1595
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:01,800
benefit of that.
And of course, the benefit of

1596
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:05,800
it, you start to go do that, you
know, and that's, I like those

1597
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,560
sort of conversations when you
do get into it, because that's,

1598
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,360
that's what.
Obviously is optimal for both

1599
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,960
parties in that perspective.
I'm sure there's just, I'm sure

1600
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:15,920
most people are like that still,
right?

1601
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,800
Yeah.
But yeah, well, yeah, it's sort

1602
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:22,280
of really up to the tenacity of
the salesperson, obviously.

1603
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,400
And then obviously also on the
client side, right.

1604
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,440
Are they just going to stick
their feet in the ground?

1605
01:20:26,440 --> 01:20:30,120
So it absolutely has to be this.
Yes, through, through nothing

1606
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:31,880
more than that.
I just saw it on YouTube.

1607
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:34,440
That's the latest thing I've got
to have versus yeah.

1608
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:38,000
Is there a real requirement for
it in the design that this

1609
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,440
fixture or this technology can
only meet?

1610
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:42,520
Yeah, sort of understanding that
it's.

1611
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:46,000
It's interesting because I, I
think, you know, when you see

1612
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,520
that an artist is growing as
fast as these artists are

1613
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:50,600
growing and they're going from
clubs to stadiums.

1614
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:54,840
And then you see, you know, a
PRG or a Christie or A4 wall or

1615
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:57,520
whoever is growing and they're
now, you know, hundreds of

1616
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:01,080
$1,000,000 companies and then
the manufacturers are growing.

1617
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:04,720
And I remember when I was at
Martin, we were like a, well, I

1618
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,640
remember when it became $100
million company and that was a

1619
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:08,840
big deal.
Yeah.

1620
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:12,560
And, you know, now that's a
relatively small moving like

1621
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,800
manufacturer these days, 100
million.

1622
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:16,640
Yeah.
But, you know, I mean, at the

1623
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:19,240
end of the day, I just don't
know if there's room for, you

1624
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:24,480
know, 10, like 2 or $300 million
moving like manufacturers.

1625
01:21:24,480 --> 01:21:27,760
I don't know if the market is
big enough it is to keep

1626
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:29,880
supporting it.
I think it's always been part of

1627
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:31,800
the problem, right?
It goes back to, you know, I

1628
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:34,880
always bring this up too, right,
is the level of R&D that goes

1629
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:38,680
into these fixtures is really,
well, it's a huge cost.

1630
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,600
But when you look at it relative
to what I'll call genera

1631
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:45,120
consumer products, like whether
it's a flat screen LED or a

1632
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,120
washing machine, whatever it is,
it's going to billions, yeah,

1633
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:50,440
billions of people.
Then they're going to have a lot

1634
01:21:50,440 --> 01:21:53,320
more capital upfront to really
sort of invest in a more robust

1635
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:57,480
product where in our industry
the market is only as big as

1636
01:21:57,480 --> 01:22:01,000
what it what it can be.
You're only going to put your

1637
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,440
R&D level to what you willing to
burden on that cost before you

1638
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:06,880
have to get it to market to make
that profit and you know.

1639
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,760
Runaway success, you know,
something like a Sharpie or a a

1640
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:14,240
Mac one or something like that
that you might sell 100,000 if

1641
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:15,680
you're really, really lucky, you
know.

1642
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,240
Well, that's not a lot, you
know, I mean, at the end of the

1643
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,680
day, that's not a lot, yeah.
And how many of those are you

1644
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:23,400
going to have?
Like not every fixture is going

1645
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:25,560
to sell 100,000 units or
whatever so.

1646
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:28,840
Anyways, yeah, I always find it,
I always find it interesting in

1647
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,640
our industry because we always
think, oh, we went in this huge

1648
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:33,800
market like motors is a good
example, right?

1649
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:38,400
The entertainment portion to
motors is infinitely so small

1650
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:41,720
compared to who buys the rest of
these scenes in the manufacture

1651
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:42,640
place.
It's so.

1652
01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,200
True, so true.
Well, Phillips used to always

1653
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,120
tell me about that, about lamps
whenever, like when I was at

1654
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:51,920
Martin and I try and beat up
Phillips for better deals on MSR

1655
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:57,040
1200s or MSR 570 fives back
then, they'd be like, Marcel,

1656
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:00,680
you have no idea how little you
are to you Like, yeah, compared

1657
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:03,640
to, you know, the medical and
all of these other industries

1658
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,400
that use these lamps.
You're nobody like you guys are

1659
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:09,440
tiny.
So, you know, we were talking

1660
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:13,360
about something before we
started recording about.

1661
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:16,840
You were talking about just how
challenging it was coming out of

1662
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:22,080
the pandemic and trying to
operate a remote business.

1663
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,960
And yeah.
I obviously have a different

1664
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,840
viewpoint of that because I
operate a remote business and

1665
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:33,840
have for about 10 years now I
think like way before it was

1666
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:38,640
ever cool.
And and so you know what, what

1667
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:41,160
tell me about that.
Tell me about like, what was the

1668
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:43,480
challenge and.
Well, I think, I think from what

1669
01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:47,240
we do and you know, the, the I
think there's certain positions

1670
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:51,080
in any company which could be
easily defined as a remote work

1671
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,280
position, right?
Is that if I'm in a virtual

1672
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,600
thing, I'm just moving numbers
around on a screen or whatever

1673
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:00,360
it is, then then you know that,
that, that works out great.

1674
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:05,800
But for me in, in quite often
what we do, having an in such,

1675
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:10,480
you know, in person interaction
where you'll get so much more

1676
01:24:10,480 --> 01:24:14,080
solved more quickly because I
have a direct verbal

1677
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,800
conversation because, yeah, part
of my trouble with electronic

1678
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:18,920
communication.
And sometimes even in meetings,

1679
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:21,680
right, you'll get in meetings
and yeah, quite often people are

1680
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:23,560
on the screen and they look at
it, but they're off.

1681
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:25,560
They've got their other screen
and they're off on the side

1682
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:27,280
doing it.
They're really paying attention

1683
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:29,400
to what's been going on in the
media itself.

1684
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:35,400
Yeah, to start with.
And then you get into the other

1685
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:38,200
side of things where if it's
e-mail communication or text

1686
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:43,400
communication, no one has a
visible reference to the tone of

1687
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:45,720
that.
And people's psychology is, oh,

1688
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:49,280
is this guy shouting at me or
this person shouting at me or

1689
01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:53,640
they're not or.
Is the caps lock on by accident?

1690
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:54,920
Yeah, exactly.
You're alright.

1691
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:59,000
So you, you don't have a, a,
what I call a, a, a, a personal

1692
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:01,200
point of reference in that sort
of tone.

1693
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:03,920
And people quite often we'll
blow it up.

1694
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,840
And then you got the issues with
e-mail etiquette and, you know,

1695
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:09,000
you're putting the most
pertinent information at the top

1696
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,040
of the e-mail to people write
War and Peace novels or the

1697
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:13,440
people.
You know, I always write e-mail

1698
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:15,360
and bullet points.
I try and keep it short to the

1699
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:17,800
point as possible.
That's not trying to get into

1700
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:19,800
long winded things because, you
know, e-mail for me is a

1701
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,560
horrible communication because
you just get overwhelmed with

1702
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,200
it.
Yeah, it's like, you know, I'll

1703
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:26,240
do 5-6 hundred emails a day in
my inbox.

1704
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:31,240
It's nuts because everyone wants
to CCBCC put you cover it's.

1705
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:32,280
Really.
You're happy, right?

1706
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:33,920
So I'll just be called CYA.
Yeah, Yeah.

1707
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:35,840
Correct.
It's all that sort of mindset,

1708
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:36,800
right?
Well, I'll send the e-mail.

1709
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:38,680
I'm sort of absconded on
responsibility.

1710
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,600
Yeah, yeah, it's on my desk and
on to someone else's.

1711
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:43,880
You know I.
Always tell any of my management

1712
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:47,320
team of things it's like if it's
important to pick up the phone,

1713
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:50,960
have a conversation, yeah,
verbal conversation on something

1714
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:52,840
to go do that.
But you know, if you're in a

1715
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:56,080
collaborative environment and
you've got you need to get more

1716
01:25:56,120 --> 01:25:58,480
intimate, you're working on a
very tight timeline.

1717
01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:01,080
I need to get real answers to
things and I, I should be able

1718
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:04,160
to go straight over my asset
manager and say, hey, what's the

1719
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:07,080
availability of this or what's
my options here very quickly.

1720
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:09,400
And do you know they're working,
you know, remotely or they're

1721
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:12,160
not accessible, You're just
sending an e-mail, but I'll get

1722
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,880
a response for two or three
hours depending on what they're.

1723
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,840
Working on, I mean, I can tell
you it, it does get better than

1724
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:20,440
that.
So you know the flip side of

1725
01:26:20,440 --> 01:26:24,040
what you're saying, Like I
actually a lot of times, almost

1726
01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:28,200
all the time, I prefer a call
like this.

1727
01:26:28,240 --> 01:26:31,320
And so we use a software
platform called Rome and it's

1728
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,000
very different than anything
else out there.

1729
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:37,160
It's basically it's like an in
person office, but it's virtual.

1730
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:41,280
And so I can look at people's
offices and I can see Hamish is

1731
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,520
in his office and there's nobody
in there with him.

1732
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:47,800
And I can knock on your door and
you can either say fuck off,

1733
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:50,040
leave me alone, or you can say
come on in.

1734
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:52,720
And if I come in, we're just
talking.

1735
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:56,320
There's no video, but we can put
up a whiteboard, we can share a

1736
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,960
screen, we can do whatever.
Or we could say, hey, let's pop

1737
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,120
into conference one over here.
And and then you've got video

1738
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,760
and stuff too, right?
Yeah, but but it's much more

1739
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,000
real time, like what you're
talking about where you can just

1740
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:09,440
pop into your asset manager and
say, hey, do we have these?

1741
01:27:09,440 --> 01:27:12,680
Can we get these, blah, blah,
blah, and just have an impromptu

1742
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:16,160
water cooler conversation as
opposed to setting a Zoom

1743
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:18,520
meeting for 3:00 this afternoon
or whatever.

1744
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:21,120
Let me look at your calendar.
No, you're in your office.

1745
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:22,400
I see you're there.
Boom.

1746
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:23,920
I'm coming in, you know.
Yeah.

1747
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,080
So that works really well.
And I like it because, like our

1748
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:31,080
system has a built in AI note
taker, for example, so I don't

1749
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:34,120
have to worry about sitting
writing notes during a call.

1750
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:35,960
It's all being done for me.
Yeah.

1751
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,800
And it sends me a message with
all the notes after.

1752
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,920
And so there are good ways, but
I mean, I agree with a lot of

1753
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,240
what you're saying.
Like there are, I think in a

1754
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:48,880
company like PRG, I would say
there are jobs that probably

1755
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:52,880
would be no different virtually
than than they are in person.

1756
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:56,400
Obviously some of the accounting
roles and things like that.

1757
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,840
But even then, if it's team
based, then the whole team kind

1758
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:01,880
of has to be virtual.
Otherwise you're going to have

1759
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,040
some people who are a little
annoyed because they have to go

1760
01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:07,880
to the office and other ones
don't and things like that.

1761
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:10,960
If you can just say the whole
accounting team is remote, then

1762
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,320
then it's good, right?
But here's the challenge.

1763
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,400
Like when you said sometimes it
takes 2 hours to get an e-mail

1764
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:20,960
returned or whatever.
So virtual and I, you know, I've

1765
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:25,000
had employees that some of whom
you know, some of you you don't,

1766
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,360
but who have figured out a way
to leave their come their office

1767
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:30,880
on.
So it looks like they're in

1768
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:33,360
their office.
No, but they're out like walking

1769
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:36,600
their dog or playing with their
kids or they've gone to pick up

1770
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,640
for school or drop off for
school or gone to lunch or

1771
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:41,400
something, right.
But it shows them in their

1772
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:43,240
office.
So I'm knocking the shit out of

1773
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:45,720
their door and nobody's
answering the door, right.

1774
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:47,840
And I end up calling their cell
phone and they're like, Oh yeah,

1775
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:49,680
I just had to run out for a
minute, you know?

1776
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:54,240
And so there is stuff like that,
like a. 100% yeah there's ways

1777
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:57,320
to game things for sure people.
Sometimes you take the piss

1778
01:28:57,320 --> 01:28:59,920
doing that.
Yeah, you know, my, my

1779
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:03,920
girlfriend and I both have
worked remote for years and so

1780
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:06,200
she knows when I'm working, I'm
working like she's not going to

1781
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:09,160
come to me and say, hey, you
want to go for a walk or you

1782
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,320
want to go to the gym or you
want to whatever.

1783
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:14,040
Like, there's times of the day
when we'll schedule for that

1784
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:16,520
kind of stuff, but usually, you
know, it's a little bit more

1785
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:18,720
structured.
Like I'm in my office, period,

1786
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:21,240
even though I happen to be in my
pajamas in the living room.

1787
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,880
I'm in my office, you know, So
yeah.

1788
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:28,520
Oh.
Big important e-mail came in a

1789
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:30,400
quote.
It's The Beatles reunion.

1790
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:35,000
How old are you?
The Beatles reunion, they're

1791
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:41,080
putting the band back together.
So Michael Jackson, you did one

1792
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:42,440
of the Michael Jackson tours,
right?

1793
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:44,920
One of the late ones.
Well, when I did the tour, I, I

1794
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,960
was, you know, I was at Elliott
Watts Sound Design and I was

1795
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:52,080
asked to bring in two trailers
of additional TV lighting for

1796
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:56,240
the HBO video shoot in Romania
and then at Wembley Stadium.

1797
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:59,600
So, you know, I was in between
tours at the time.

1798
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,320
So I said sure, I went and did
that.

1799
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:04,360
Benny Collins was the production
manager.

1800
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:06,400
I think Anthony was the stage
manager of the time.

1801
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:09,560
Mel was built up.
It used to moving lights.

1802
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:13,160
I think it was kind of.
I think I used to be.

1803
01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:14,200
I think it was.
I can't remember.

1804
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,800
Yeah.
But that was an interesting one

1805
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:19,480
because, you know, you know, I
remember the lighting, the

1806
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:23,520
tracks of burning.
And they flew US Air Romania and

1807
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,600
I literally, and it was funny.
I was on the same flight as

1808
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:28,040
Peter Morse, right?
So.

1809
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:30,440
Really.
So if we get down to Heathrow

1810
01:30:30,440 --> 01:30:32,040
and I get on this bloody plane,
right?

1811
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:34,880
And this plane was like a
miracle on wheels.

1812
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:37,120
So I kid you not, right?
I sort of looked out the window

1813
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,960
before we born and I said, is
that retreads on the tires?

1814
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:42,680
Oh, and we sort of get into the
plane.

1815
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:45,520
It used to be what I think was a
true carrier or whatever it was

1816
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,480
because they had the camouflage
green food trays and stuff.

1817
01:30:48,480 --> 01:30:50,280
And literally I went to recline
my seat.

1818
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:52,800
Note my seat fell back into the.
Oh my God.

1819
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:55,640
So that's a.
That was how we started it,

1820
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:58,880
right?
So, so we anyway, we, you know,

1821
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,400
fly into Romania in the
Bucharest and, you know, I get a

1822
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,520
hotel and then we go to this
stadium.

1823
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:09,200
And do, you know, at the time,
this was when Ceausescu had just

1824
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:13,400
been outed and, you know,
basically killed by, you know,

1825
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,040
by the public, right?
It's interesting when you go

1826
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,200
there because it's literally
like a movie set.

1827
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:23,080
So while you go to his palace,
and while I was there, I

1828
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:25,480
actually got into his palace.
So there was, I think it was

1829
01:31:25,480 --> 01:31:27,440
guarded by the UN, and I got a
carton.

1830
01:31:27,440 --> 01:31:30,320
And back in those days, Marlboro
cigarettes were a great currency

1831
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:33,480
if you wanted to, you know, you
don't get your way around, make

1832
01:31:33,480 --> 01:31:34,480
friends.
Yeah.

1833
01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:37,000
So I got a carton of Marlboros
and got him off to this guy.

1834
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:39,320
And he let me in.
And I sort of walked around this

1835
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,000
Alice.
He just saw the amount of money

1836
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,240
this guy squandered, you know,
from his population.

1837
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:47,920
And at that point, that was
still bringing his coffin out

1838
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,000
every Thursday so they can spit
on it.

1839
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:53,800
It was like crazy.
You would see that news and

1840
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:56,760
things to go do that.
But you know, I remember, you

1841
01:31:56,760 --> 01:31:59,800
know, going into the stadium
there and we set up all the

1842
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:02,360
lights and stuff.
And it was interesting because

1843
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,640
it was, I remember one night,
you know, because we were there

1844
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:08,720
for I think 5 or 6 days or
whatever it was.

1845
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:10,960
Can't remember what the period
of time was, but it was there

1846
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:14,920
for a while and a couple of
nights we sort of got invited.

1847
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:16,720
Oh, you should come out to to
this place.

1848
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:19,280
So I said, OK, so we've gone
with out these guys and we're

1849
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:21,200
like the secret police in
Romania.

1850
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:24,120
And I thought when we're going
out to this, you know, out in

1851
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:25,760
the middle of nowhere, I
thought, jeez, are we going to

1852
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:28,240
end up in a shallow grave here?
I was like really concerned

1853
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:30,680
about it, but I was interested
that took us to this out of this

1854
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:33,640
way nightclub thing.
And you know, we had a good time

1855
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:37,000
there, I guess.
But yeah, did did that whole

1856
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,200
thing there.
And then when the show finished,

1857
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:43,240
it's funny, all the HBI guys
wanted to get out of there as

1858
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:46,360
quick as possible because, you
know, the, the country, what,

1859
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:49,920
you know, the amenities weren't
the best and you know, it was

1860
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:51,280
just, you know, a bit of a shit
show.

1861
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:55,960
So they all piled into the
airport, my flight to go back to

1862
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,360
London.
They someone has somehow they

1863
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:01,480
managed to bribe the people at
the counter there with cash to

1864
01:33:01,480 --> 01:33:04,640
sell out our seats off.
And you know, I'm sort of stuck

1865
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:06,880
there now.
For their seats.

1866
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:12,240
That's just the seats.
So I literally had no hotel I

1867
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:15,160
had, I just spent the last of my
currency because, you know, it's

1868
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:16,920
up to my last day.
I thought he'd go do it.

1869
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:20,400
And I said, oh shit.
So, you know, I ended up, I

1870
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,640
ended up calling the steel guys
because the steel guys are

1871
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:25,080
always the last people here
pulling down the steel at the

1872
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:26,920
stage.
And I said, you got somewhere I

1873
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:30,040
can bed down for a couple of
days until I can get a flight

1874
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:32,320
out.
And that's what I did, right?

1875
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,560
I walked into this hotel and was
like, you know, the hotel room

1876
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:37,960
with the Steelers, It was just
absolutely terrible, right?

1877
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,160
You'd pull a bed from the wall
and the cockroach would pull it

1878
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:41,880
back.
And you know, the, the, the

1879
01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:44,120
shower, I didn't have a head on
it.

1880
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:45,280
So I ended up.
Having to put a water.

1881
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:48,320
Bottle of punch holes in it and
put it up there to go do it.

1882
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:50,080
But you know.
We're living large.

1883
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:53,280
We're living large, but that
that was that was an interesting

1884
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:57,640
experience just to, you know,
see that sort of level of

1885
01:33:57,640 --> 01:33:59,280
things.
Another interesting one for me

1886
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:03,720
was on YouTube and we did
Sarajevo and I remember we

1887
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:10,320
landed in the Sarajevo and our
hotel, I literally saw the hotel

1888
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:13,600
opposite where we were had huge
shelves, holes in it right now.

1889
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:16,920
I remember watching on see it in
this hotel getting shelved live,

1890
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,080
you know, from a hotel and where
it was.

1891
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:23,200
Yeah, it was crazy, right?
So I get into my hotel room and

1892
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,320
above my bent board is bullet
holes.

1893
01:34:25,440 --> 01:34:27,720
There's machine guns to go do
it.

1894
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,320
So it was, it was, it was sort
of really bizarre.

1895
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:32,240
It's a bit unsettling.
Well.

1896
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:35,360
You know, this is just after
obviously Bosnia and everything

1897
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:38,080
settled down and you know,
because it's just enough.

1898
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:41,080
Where we did the gig at the
stadium was where Torvill and

1899
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:44,120
Dean did their Winter Olympics
side of things.

1900
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:48,040
We had catering in, in one of
the buildings there, which

1901
01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:50,680
unfortunately was where they
massacred a bunch of people,

1902
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:54,360
which was really weird, scary.
You know, once again, it's, it's

1903
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:57,160
an experience you'll never
forget on certain things, right?

1904
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:59,920
What you'll visually see and
understood what happened there

1905
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:02,800
from, you know, whatever was
going in the country, it was

1906
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:03,520
quite.
Interesting.

1907
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:06,560
I remember going to see Michael
Jackson.

1908
01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:09,800
I think it was the opening show
of the tour.

1909
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,520
That was probably either right
before or right after that.

1910
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:15,400
No, I think it was right after
that because the tour ended when

1911
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:17,480
he was going to court about that
boy.

1912
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:23,800
So, but I think Obie's did that
one and you know, I went over

1913
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:27,000
because I had a bunch of lights
on it just in support of and

1914
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:29,760
plus I wanted to see Michael
Jackson and I brought Tim

1915
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:34,960
Brennan with me.
And you know, which was, was a

1916
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:39,640
funny story by itself because we
were flying out of Miami on

1917
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:46,720
Martin Air and, and I had no
idea who Martin Air was, but it

1918
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:49,680
was just the cheapest business
class tickets I guess my office

1919
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,640
could find.
And so we, we were flying

1920
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:55,800
through Amsterdam and, you know,
Tim being the big pothead that

1921
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,240
he is, he's like, we're stopping
in Amsterdam, right?

1922
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,160
And I said just to get on
another plane.

1923
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:04,240
And he goes, are you kidding me?
Like the entire flight.

1924
01:36:04,240 --> 01:36:07,120
I usually sleep on the flight
over to Europe from the US Yeah,

1925
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,440
the entire flight, every 30
seconds probably.

1926
01:36:10,440 --> 01:36:13,520
He was like, man, Marcel, I
can't believe you're taking me

1927
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,200
to Amsterdam and I don't get to
see a cafe.

1928
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:19,840
Yeah, you know, and just
complaining the whole time.

1929
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,440
So we get off the plane in
Amsterdam, we're walking to the

1930
01:36:23,440 --> 01:36:26,560
next gate, our bags are on the
plane getting checked to the

1931
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:32,040
next gate or whatever.
And he's just bitching in my ear

1932
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:33,800
because now he's had a few
cocktails too.

1933
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:36,000
He hasn't slept all night
because he's pissed off.

1934
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:41,120
Finally, I said fuck it.
We walked out of the airport,

1935
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:43,800
grabbed a taxi.
I had no idea how we were going

1936
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:45,320
to get to Prague after this,
right?

1937
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:47,440
Yeah.
But all I knew is I couldn't

1938
01:36:47,440 --> 01:36:51,480
listen to Tim anymore.
And so we went to like Bulldog

1939
01:36:51,480 --> 01:36:53,600
or Bullfrog Cafe or whatever
it's called.

1940
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:57,160
He bought 3 different kinds of
weed, got stoned out of his

1941
01:36:57,160 --> 01:36:59,880
brains.
And we grabbed a taxi back to

1942
01:36:59,880 --> 01:37:03,120
the airport, got our way back
onto another flight to Prague

1943
01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:07,920
and somehow found our bags when
we got to Prague and and made

1944
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:09,320
it.
So yeah, it was an interesting

1945
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,680
experience, but that show was
incredible.

1946
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:17,760
And, and so Peter had invited us
backstage to meet Michael.

1947
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:22,840
And so OK, you know, we had
laminates and we're like, you

1948
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:25,880
know, Wayne's World, you know,
watching through the audience

1949
01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:27,600
like this, we got laminates let
us through.

1950
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:31,640
So we get backstage and, and you
know, we meet the pop star and,

1951
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:35,640
and we're going to try to get
back out to front of house and

1952
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:37,440
we're doing the same thing,
holding up our laminates.

1953
01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:40,160
Well, now they've let in the
whole crowd and there's like

1954
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:44,080
100,000 people or something.
And they were angry, like they

1955
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:47,560
had been waiting a long time
and, you know, they fought to

1956
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,840
get to this position.
We're going against the crowd.

1957
01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:55,400
And they're like, not very happy
that we're trying to get through

1958
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:56,440
them, right?
Yep.

1959
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,760
And so him and I are holding
hands like little girls.

1960
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:02,320
And at some point, you know, it
was like a movie where it was

1961
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:06,320
like our hands came undone.
And I never saw him again until

1962
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,560
the next day at the airport.
Oh, well, I was afraid that he

1963
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:11,800
died.
Like I literally was afraid he

1964
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:14,760
died and got trampled and and I
was going to have to explain to

1965
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:19,120
his family that I lost their
son, you know, or whatever, but.

1966
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,600
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting
because you'll see that when you

1967
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:24,200
open the doors in the stadiums
where there was Wembley or

1968
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:26,160
Bucharest there, same thing,
right?

1969
01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:30,600
They literally Sprint as fast as
they can to get to as close to

1970
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:32,640
the stage as possible.
Going against that.

1971
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:34,080
Yeah.
Oh, exactly.

1972
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:35,720
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

1973
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:40,520
It was wild, Yeah.
So there was Sarah told me that

1974
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:44,480
you told her about another U2U2
lemon in Oslo.

1975
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:48,320
Oslo, that's a little legend.
But so, you know, so obviously,

1976
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:52,320
you know, Willie designed this
lemon on the stick that sort of

1977
01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:57,200
drove out from the mainstage
down a curved track to the B

1978
01:38:57,200 --> 01:38:59,600
stage, right?
And, you know, the scene opened

1979
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:03,520
up and inside we had lights, and
the band would sort of step out

1980
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:06,600
and walk down the ladder and
start into their set for the

1981
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:11,360
second part of the show.
Well, we're in Oslo, and I'm

1982
01:39:11,360 --> 01:39:13,520
sitting on headsets backstage
listening to all this because

1983
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:15,520
we're all wiped up on all that
sort of stuff.

1984
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:20,800
And the music's going and you
see this lemon slowly track out,

1985
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:25,400
gets all the way to the end.
And then you see the lemon start

1986
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:28,160
to open and then it gets stuck.
It's a typical Spinal Tap

1987
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:29,600
moment, right?
That's hilarious.

1988
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:32,120
Cracked open, right?
Music's going.

1989
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:34,240
Nothing's happening.
Nothing's happening.

1990
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:35,160
And you're.
I'm listening to the

1991
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:37,720
conversation on headset, right?
They're all freaking out.

1992
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:39,280
Yeah.
How do we get the band out?

1993
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:40,880
They're stuck.
We can't do this.

1994
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:43,400
You know, I was just.
I was in stitches.

1995
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:46,440
Yeah.
It's all they're humor, right?

1996
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:48,400
Yeah.
And then you see this thing

1997
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:52,480
slowly go back again, you know,
knowing that they couldn't come

1998
01:39:52,480 --> 01:39:54,840
out and say your back again, You
had to go all the way back to

1999
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:57,000
its home position before you get
the band out.

2000
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:58,440
Yeah.
And then the band need to walk

2001
01:39:58,440 --> 01:40:00,760
down to the down to the real
stage.

2002
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:02,080
Yeah.
To to do set.

2003
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:04,160
But it was like just one of
those things.

2004
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:05,800
And it obviously made the papers
and stuff.

2005
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:07,520
I don't know.
William was beside himself, you

2006
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:09,640
know, he's like, it's one of the
worst things you can have,

2007
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:10,560
right, Is.
Yeah.

2008
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:11,560
Yeah.
Something like that happens.

2009
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:12,720
You know, I had another thing
on.

2010
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:16,200
She's going struck.
Someone into that too, by the

2011
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:18,240
way, right?
Like someone said, no, no, no,

2012
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:19,960
it's a really good idea.
We're going to have them come

2013
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,440
out of this lemon and it's a
really good idea and that

2014
01:40:22,440 --> 01:40:24,600
someone is sitting there like
this right now, right?

2015
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:26,720
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So what was?

2016
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:28,920
What was I?
Was just going to say on Kiss,

2017
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:30,320
we did.
I had the same issue.

2018
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:32,040
Well, similar to the issue in
Australia, right?

2019
01:40:32,040 --> 01:40:34,720
We had, because in JD Sims, we
would go out on these, you know,

2020
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:37,000
Grove lifts, right?
They're just snorkels that would

2021
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:38,240
go out over the audience to do
things.

2022
01:40:38,240 --> 01:40:40,320
Same thing.
That thing broke down and he's

2023
01:40:40,320 --> 01:40:43,960
stuck out over the audience for
like 2 songs until like a God of

2024
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:46,440
Thunder, yeah.
God of Thunder is when he always

2025
01:40:46,440 --> 01:40:49,080
did that.
Yeah, yeah, So one of those,

2026
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:52,600
another classic, you know,
spiral tap moments again,

2027
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:55,520
wasn't.
There wasn't there one with an I

2028
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:58,400
don't know if you were involved.
I think probably Wiseman was

2029
01:40:58,400 --> 01:41:00,600
involved because he did a bunch
of the Mötley Crüe stuff.

2030
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,520
But wasn't there a Mötley Crüe
show when they were doing that?

2031
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:06,280
The track out into the audience
with the drum kit.

2032
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:08,720
Yeah that roller coaster thing
thing your rolling.

2033
01:41:08,760 --> 01:41:12,280
Got stuck upside down on it.
Tommy Lee got stuck upside down

2034
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:14,240
on the roller coaster.
Yeah.

2035
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:15,760
Yeah.
I mean, that's the risk right

2036
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:17,360
there.
We talk about technology and.

2037
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:19,160
Those doesn't work sometimes.
Yeah.

2038
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:21,280
And then you're going to have a
rescue plan.

2039
01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:24,720
I mean, that was the thing, like
when I do perform a flying, that

2040
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:28,720
was a prerequisite was that you
had to have a defined rescue

2041
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:30,880
plan if something failed as to
how you're going to get the

2042
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,680
artist down or whatever it is,
and you'd have to have it

2043
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:35,840
written out, practice, work
through.

2044
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:38,920
So yeah, you know, to to, to, to
go do it.

2045
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:43,080
Yeah, yeah.
Well, anything we missed?

2046
01:41:43,240 --> 01:41:44,880
I don't know, like we've covered
a bunch.

2047
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:47,720
Yeah, we sort of, yeah, shot the
shit and talked to quite a few

2048
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:48,880
things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2049
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:51,200
No, it was fun.
I'd, I'd, I'd love to do this

2050
01:41:51,200 --> 01:41:51,960
again.
I didn't.

2051
01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:53,320
Sure.
I didn't know you were so

2052
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:56,920
interesting.
Yeah, he'll be great.

2053
01:41:56,920 --> 01:41:58,400
And I said awesome.
Yeah.

2054
01:41:58,880 --> 01:42:02,160
I don't know why I don't know
you, but there's just, you know,

2055
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,360
because I never toured.
I don't know everyone on the

2056
01:42:04,360 --> 01:42:06,960
touring side of this business
unless you were in purchasing

2057
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:08,880
because I always sold moving
lights, you know, so.

2058
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:10,400
Yeah.
Well, you know, you know, my

2059
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:13,960
time at Ed and Ted's and very
light and things, you know, I'd

2060
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:16,120
still be quite and heavily
involved in that side as well.

2061
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:18,200
I mean, you know, I used to
work, you know, all the time

2062
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:20,440
with Martin on on those sort of
things.

2063
01:42:20,440 --> 01:42:23,720
And you know, back in the day he
was Hairspray with Verilight

2064
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:25,080
when he was selling out of
there.

2065
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:29,760
You know, Ray, you know, he's
got he was the other guy that

2066
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:31,880
sort of did the rounds Peter
something.

2067
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:33,480
He was.
He must have sold at every

2068
01:42:33,480 --> 01:42:36,400
company as well at some point.
But oh, you're talking about Ed

2069
01:42:36,400 --> 01:42:37,800
and Heads.
Yeah.

2070
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:43,280
Well, the when you mean epic.
Well I let he's just say on that

2071
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:45,960
side of it.
I left when Ed and Teds got

2072
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:49,520
bought and we did I I was only
there for another six months

2073
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,320
before I moved over to tape.
And for me, OK.

2074
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:55,440
Well, I mean, for me it was just
like one of those things I sort

2075
01:42:55,440 --> 01:42:58,080
of wasn't going the way I would
hoped it was going to go.

2076
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:01,720
So very quickly it was, you
know, not going to come out the

2077
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:04,400
way I would have hoped.
So, you know, I took that

2078
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:06,720
opportunity and it was an
opportunity for me at the time

2079
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:08,560
and embraced it and sort of
moved on.

2080
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:10,440
Which is sad because it was
likely, didn't it?

2081
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:14,240
Yeah, it it, Well, you know when
just to understand the history

2082
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:17,920
of that, right, The deal for
that company was signed two

2083
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:20,560
weeks before the crash of, oh,
wait, whatever it was.

2084
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:22,960
Right.
Brutal timing, brutal time, you

2085
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:26,440
know?
So once again, VC involved large

2086
01:43:26,440 --> 01:43:30,000
expectations to revenue.
You have a bunch of covenants in

2087
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:33,240
place against the capital
available to go do that.

2088
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:34,800
It's the usual story with
covenants, right?

2089
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:36,720
You don't, you're not.
You don't get the cash.

2090
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:40,080
Yeah.
So, you know, if you overextend

2091
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:43,680
or you're making decisions on
the anticipation of getting it

2092
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:45,600
and then that doesn't
materialize, guess what?

2093
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:46,920
It'll go sell.
That's brutal.

2094
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:49,360
That is so.
You know, that's and that's, you

2095
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:51,800
know, that's a risk on on those
sort of things.

2096
01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:54,560
So, you know, I was actually
surprised they lasted as long as

2097
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:57,640
they did and they actually were
able to go to, I think Ted sort

2098
01:43:57,640 --> 01:44:00,280
of reinvesting it at one point
to go do it.

2099
01:44:00,360 --> 01:44:03,200
But yeah, it was such.
Bad timing though.

2100
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:04,560
Yeah, that that was.
Horrible.

2101
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:05,920
Unfortunately, it was bad
timing.

2102
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:08,160
It was just.
Like, I know people who sold or

2103
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:12,440
bought companies like right at
the end of 2019 or at the

2104
01:44:12,440 --> 01:44:16,000
beginning of 2020.
Like actually, who was it?

2105
01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:18,240
Itis when Itis still sold main
light.

2106
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:20,920
He told me right at the
beginning of 2020, he took a

2107
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:24,120
huge delivery and I forget which
light fixture it was, but it

2108
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:27,240
they were still sitting brand
new in boxes when I talked to

2109
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:29,480
him about it.
And this was like in 2021.

2110
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:30,600
Yeah.
You know, Yeah.

2111
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:33,880
I mean literally sitting there
for a year untouched and

2112
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:36,840
probably by the time he gets to
use them they won't be the

2113
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:38,360
latest model.
Not really.

2114
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,120
Grant Yeah, the words appreciate
it.

2115
01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:42,520
And they got no value.
That is tough, yeah.

2116
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:44,280
It is, yeah.
Brutal.

2117
01:44:44,440 --> 01:44:46,880
Yep.
All right, Hamish, thank you so

2118
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:48,520
much for doing this.
I appreciate it.

2119
01:44:48,520 --> 01:44:54,360
It's been fun and have have have
a great rest of the week.

2120
01:44:54,360 --> 01:44:56,920
I guess it's Wednesday.
Are you going to LDI or you

2121
01:44:56,920 --> 01:44:58,960
don't go to that I?
Probably won't.

2122
01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:02,400
I used to go there religiously
all the time, but you know, I've

2123
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,920
got so much going on.
Yeah, at POG with all the

2124
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:07,680
different shows, we're actually
very busy right now.

2125
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,040
I've got a lot going on this
particular suite which is good

2126
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:12,000
so.
Yeah, Wiseman was telling me, I

2127
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:14,320
don't know, recently, he said.
It was one of the most brutal

2128
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:17,920
years I've had, but the next 18
months is like the biggest

2129
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:20,280
pipeline I've ever seen.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

2130
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:23,360
That's well that's, you know,
that's sort of I think what the

2131
01:45:23,480 --> 01:45:26,040
the hope is with all of us,
right is to see that change.

2132
01:45:26,040 --> 01:45:28,520
I mean, for me going back to it,
there needs to be a change also

2133
01:45:28,520 --> 01:45:30,560
in the pricing as well coming
hell.

2134
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:32,520
Yes, you know, hell yes for
everyone.

2135
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:36,760
It's like I'm, you know, we all
need to say that because it's

2136
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:39,360
like, you know, going back to
the old edges, I'm doing more

2137
01:45:39,360 --> 01:45:41,440
work for less money doesn't work
well, you know?

2138
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:45,040
And I mean, at least the larger
companies have access to to

2139
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:47,720
either public money or private
equity money or whatever.

2140
01:45:47,720 --> 01:45:51,320
Like at least you have capital
that you can access if you need

2141
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:54,880
to, as painful as it might be
sometimes, but smaller companies

2142
01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:59,080
like I know 5 to $7,000,000
companies that are going out of

2143
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:00,280
business left and.
Right, right.

2144
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:01,880
Yeah, No, I actually left and
right.

2145
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:05,200
I expect to see a slew of
bankruptcies to come.

2146
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:07,760
There's a bunch of them.
Well, you've also got the things

2147
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:11,560
to anyone that was able to
obtain COVID, you know, funding,

2148
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,240
Yeah, some of that payments are
coming due and stuff.

2149
01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:17,360
So yeah, this couldn't be but.
Also, buying gear like drunks,

2150
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:20,840
sailors, you know, right after
COVID because you had so many

2151
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:23,680
shows coming at you and just
going, yeah, I'll take fifty of

2152
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:25,000
those.
I'll take a hundred of those.

2153
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:27,840
And when you're a $10 million
company, you can't be doing that

2154
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:30,160
stuff.
You got a bootstrapping boy.

2155
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,400
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, I guess you know that's

2156
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:34,760
interesting when you talk about
entrepreneurial things goes back

2157
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:39,640
to in that spot of where you're
at and your growth period where

2158
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:42,480
the cap.
That's why VCPC quite often has

2159
01:46:42,480 --> 01:46:45,440
to be brought in because you hit
that threshold where you can no

2160
01:46:45,440 --> 01:46:48,320
longer get the capital to
continue what you're doing if

2161
01:46:48,360 --> 01:46:50,320
you want to continue.
It's so.

2162
01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:52,000
True.
But you're right, we we need

2163
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:53,720
some pricing shift in the market
for.

2164
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:56,080
Sure we do.
You know, and, and one person

2165
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:58,880
explained it to me recently, a
small business operator and he

2166
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:02,280
just said, look, I'm getting so
much pressure now from customers

2167
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:05,560
who are saying unless you'll
give it to me for 2019 numbers,

2168
01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:09,400
I'm gonna get it from Christy
Lights or from 4 Wall or from

2169
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:11,800
PRD or from whoever will give me
that price.

2170
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:14,960
I, you know, I'm sorry, I know
I've been renting it from you

2171
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:20,080
for 10 years, but unless you can
do the show for 2019 pricing and

2172
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:22,920
how do you do that and make
money, you can't, you just

2173
01:47:22,920 --> 01:47:25,840
can't.
So have you seen the price of

2174
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:28,960
eggs?
Exactly.

2175
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:32,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.
It's all right, mate.

2176
01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:35,400
Well, it's been a pleasure.
Yeah, have a good one.

2177
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:36,440
You too.
Bye.