#257 - Joe Cole

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Just recorded this episode #257
with Joe Cole from R-90 Lighting

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in Seattle.
Had a lot of fun.

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It was actually really
interesting because before the

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podcast started recording, we
actually had a discussion, a

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political discussion.
And I will say we're on sort of

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opposite sides of the politics.
And it was such a great

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discussion, friendly.
We agreed on some things, we

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disagreed on some things, but
didn't fight about it.

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And so it was really fun.
You know, I always avoid pot

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politics on the podcast, but we
had it before the podcast and

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just some other really smart
stuff came out of this

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conversation.
And one of the things was a

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quote from Joe, which I really
love.

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And I'm going to have to read
this.

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I'm sorry, but he said the best
way to sucker me into a project

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I don't want to do is to tell me
it can't be done.

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And with that, I will just
invite you to listen to the rest

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of this podcast episode #257
with Joe Cole.

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Thanks.
Hello and thanks for joining us

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today on Geese of Gear episode
#257.

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It's another week.
It's another podcast.

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God, I love doing this.
You know, if only this paid

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well, I would probably consider
spending a heck of a lot more

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time doing it.
I'd love to record podcasts

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every single day.
I love the people in this

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industry.
I love the conversations, I

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really love the stories and you
know, I'd love to do it more

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often.
Unfortunately, I don't have the

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sponsors that like Joe Rogan or
you know, Tucker Carlson or any

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of these people do to be able to
afford to do that.

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So work I shall do.
And this is just a part time

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endeavour still.
So it's been a busy week and

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it's going to continue to be a
busy week.

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I actually, I'm recording this
on a Wednesday.

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I believe it's July 31st, last
day of the month.

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And so, yeah, it's busy because
it's the last day of the month.

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Everybody's crunching to get
products shipped.

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They want the numbers, so we
have to help them get their

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numbers.
And so that's always a lot of

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fun.
I am traveling on Monday and

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Tuesday next week I have to go
to LA for a board meeting and

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some kind of looking forward to
just getting out for a couple

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days and then getting back
again.

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I'm not going to spend a bunch
of time in LA this time of

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visiting clients or anything.
I just don't have time, too

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crazy busy at the moment.
You know, our business just

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seems to go against the trend
when the industry is crazy busy,

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we're not.
When the industry slowing down a

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little bit and everybody's
complaining, we're going nuts.

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So right now we are going nuts
and I'm not complaining, you

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know, knock on my wooden head.
We're pretty happy and excited

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about where we're at right now.
So and grateful and Speaking of

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gratitude, we're getting a bunch
of it right now from a couple of

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companies, but also from the
industry as a whole.

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So quite often we will get
people trying to sell stolen

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equipment on gear source.
Unfortunately it happens.

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It happens with every
marketplace.

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The difference between the big
marketplaces such as Facebook

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and eBay and others and us is
that we're really watching for

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that equipment.
I mean, they might use some AI

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or something to kind of watch
for it, but we're looking for

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real patterns and trends and
just using our own knowledge and

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common sense and going maybe
there's something wrong here.

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And so, you know, recently we
were contacted by the Police

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Department in a particular city.
I'm not going to get into any

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details on this, but we were
contacted by the, by actually

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before we were contacted by the
Police Department, we were

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contacted by someone outside
saying, hey, you know, have you

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seen this listing?
And we looked at the listing and

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went, yeah, something suspicious
here.

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Let's take a look deeper into
it.

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We got in contact with the
Police Department who were very

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much on the sniff on this deal
and we worked closely with them

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to make sure that they recovered
the product.

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It was over $1,000,000 in
lighting equipment and you know,

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it was successfully recovered
without loss.

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So basically before they sold it
anywhere else, they were able to

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get it back from the people who
took the equipment.

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So somebody has been
reacquainted with $1,000,000 in

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gear.
Course there was number reward

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or anything.
So all we get is the Pats on the

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back and we're perfectly happy
with that.

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And just a fair warning, if
you're going to try and sell

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stolen gear on on Gear Source,
we are looking for you.

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We are paying close attention
and we will work with the people

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who you've stolen the gear from
and we'll work with the police.

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So it's not a threat or
anything.

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I'm no one to threaten anyone,
but we are definitely abiding by

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laws and following laws and
making sure that we don't become

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sort of a fencing platform form
for stolen equipment.

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And if you've ever tried to sell
anything, I tried selling AF150

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truck on Facebook marketplace
and I couldn't believe the

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number of scammers that came out
of the woodwork trying to part

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me from my money and in my
vehicle in some cases too.

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So, but mostly it was money.
Mostly it was like, you know

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those very simple scams that
oversimplified or basically send

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me your bank information so I
can send you the money or send

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you a deposit or send me a small
deposit.

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So I can send you a bigger
deposit.

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All of those different things
that are generally pretty easy

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to catch.
But then there's some that are

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tougher to catch.
And you know, honestly, like

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there's a place I guess for
Facebook Marketplace, there's a

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place for OfferUp, there's a
place for eBay selling $100,000

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lighting packages and sound
systems is not the place for

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those, those platforms.
You are probably going to suffer

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some pain unless you're selling
it to friends and locals and

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stuff.
And then what do you need the

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platform for?
I mean, just to tell your

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friends, hey, I'm selling my DNB
sound system.

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You know, I know this sounds
like an ad for Gear Source.

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But really what we do is we, we
put out marketing and feelers

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and stuff to a much larger
global market.

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And we have a very secure
platform and very secure payment

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process.
And we guarantee it by the way.

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So there is a fraud guarantee if
if for some reason we are

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defrauded on a transaction that
does not go to the seller, that

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goes to us.
And so we're very careful on

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these transactions.
We pay a lot of attention to

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make sure there is no fraud and,
and we'll always be watching for

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stolen equipment.
So there you have it.

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So today's guest is Joe Cole.
Many of you know him as the

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founder of R-90 Lighting.
R-90 is first and foremost

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dedicated to design.
Their history is rooted in

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corporate event lighting and
special event lighting design

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they have had.
They have over 20 years

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experience collectively in the
event lighting sector.

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R-90 also offers a comprehensive
collection of state-of-the-art

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lighting, rigging and video wall
equipment for rent.

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There was a lighting designer,
scenic designer, 3D drafting and

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pre vis programmer, content
creator and master electrician.

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Joe was last on our podcast back
in 2020, I think mid 2020 with

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and I can never say his name,
but Newell Juneja and I remember

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Neil is a, is an attorney and I
believe he primarily or as a, as

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an expertise or a, a whatever
you want to call it, he focuses

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on companies that are in the
weed business.

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And so I found that to be really
interesting and we talked a bit

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about that.
I think the episode was #111 if

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you want to check it out, but I
had Joe and Neil on.

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One of the big things that we
talked about was drive through

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raves.
They had partnered to put

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together these ideas for some
drive through raves.

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And if you remember all of those
drive through shows, I was not a

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huge fan of them, but they did
serve a purpose in helping

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people just stay sane, helping
guys like like Joe just find A

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use for some of his gear and get
out and do some things instead

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of just sitting there watching
Netflix all day.

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So good on you.
Maybe we'll talk a little bit

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about that today as well.
You know, of course, we'll talk

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about how Joe got into the
industry and just sort of, you

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know, his background and where
he's at today and where he's

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going in the future.
So a lot of cool things that

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we're going to talk about today.
So I'm looking forward to it.

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So please join me and welcome
Joe Cole, ladies and gentlemen,

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it's Joe Cole.
Hello.

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Nothing like, you know, right
before we get on a on a podcast,

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we go into a nice little
discussion about politics and

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get both of us wound up coffee.
While doing it.

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And then he runs out of coffee
because he was guzzling it.

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I need more coffee to put up
with this conversation.

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No, we had a we had a very
grounded conversation for the

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most part, and I think it was
enjoyable for at least one of

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us.
So anyways, staying away from

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politics.
How you been, man?

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It's been OK.
It's, you know, here we are.

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It's 2022.
We survived the pandemic.

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Yeah, 20. 2420. 20 yeah.
What's that mean?

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That like 1995 was 20 years ago,
19/18/2000 was 20 years ago

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isn't.
That insane.

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It's all insane.
When I started five years.

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AGO 2020 doesn't exist.
Really.

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I I, I guess, I don't know,
sometimes it feels like that.

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But yeah, here we are in 2024
and yeah, we survived a

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pandemic.
Yay.

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I was, I was talking with Sarah
about, I was talking with Sarah

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about this earlier because the
last time you were on the

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podcast was with Neil and it was
in June of 2020.

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Oh yeah.
And you guys were just going off

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on this drive in, what was it,
raves or something?

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Drive in Rave, Yeah.
Drive in rave.

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Yeah, we.
Were trying to find a way to

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survive and you know I don't
think we've talked since then

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and I know we well Geely Cly
you're gonna get back into

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politics here.
But I'll tell you like as a

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Washington state resident, I
have as a Washington state

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resident and as a liberal.
I've never been more angry at a

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00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,800
liberal governor than I have
been at at our governor here.

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And he, I spent most of 2020 and
2021 fighting stuff here.

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And it, it was a, it was an
uphill battle.

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And I, I turned from like a, a
lighting company guy into, I

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don't know, policy writer.
Like at one point I actually had

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on my desk the rewrite for the
reopening of the state for a

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00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,920
phase two that I had drafted.
Wow.

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Because I finally got to the
point where I couldn't get

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anything done.
I was talking to like the

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Washington State Arts Council
and so basically the the

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governor's office said, OK, you
guys are the so they took the

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00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,280
people who are supposed to be
giving out grants for

228
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,040
underprivileged tuba player
instructions and finding a new

229
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,360
statue for the town square and
and all this kind of stuff.

230
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,240
And they said you guys are in
charge of the arts and

231
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,200
entertainment for COVID.
What?

232
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,640
And yeah, that I mean, that
government, government logic,

233
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,440
right?
So it kind of made sense because

234
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,960
they were the arts and
entertainment branch of the

235
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,520
Washington state government.
But none of these people have

236
00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,400
ever produced an event.
Yeah, very few.

237
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,120
Like, there's maybe one person
involved who's ever, maybe even

238
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:03,520
been to a concert.
I don't know.

239
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,200
Right.
Yeah.

240
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,520
They all do arts funding for
other stuff.

241
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,280
Suddenly they're in charge and
they were just making these,

242
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,400
like, nonsensical rules.
So I got involved.

243
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,240
I tried talking to them.
I would.

244
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,680
I did 100 Zoom calls and
everyone was like, yeah, that's

245
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,240
a good idea.
I don't know why we don't do

246
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:22,680
that.
So I got a hot tip.

247
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,560
And this is how politics really
works.

248
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,480
Yeah.
I talked to a wedding person

249
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,600
because weddings were allowed to
open up to a small capacity in

250
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,160
2021.
OK.

251
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,320
And they they were like, OK,
well, yeah, you can have a

252
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,280
wedding party.
And here's, here's some like,

253
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,120
rules to follow.
So I talked to the wedding

254
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,160
people and I said, how the hell
did you do that?

255
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,160
Because in the meantime, even
though we'd done the drive in

256
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,760
rave thing and we we'd, we'd
almost converted a major concert

257
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,600
series to a drive in format, the
governor's office shut us down

258
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,760
and they shut down all live
music, like flat out band live

259
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,200
music.
Like I didn't know that. 43 And

260
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,440
we're all like trying to do the
the the jitterbug or something.

261
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,240
Yeah, the flash dance thing.
Yeah.

262
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,640
Yeah, and it, it was all because
there was some like, you know,

263
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,120
there was some douche bags going
out in the woods and having like

264
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,960
private raves that became like
super spreader events.

265
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,200
And, you know, I, I, I kind of
get that part.

266
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,560
Whatever.
There were ways to do it safe.

267
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,160
And we had proven that we could
do it safe.

268
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:21,480
So we go to the wedding
industry.

269
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,840
And I was like, how did you do
that?

270
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,680
And they said we hired a
lobbyist.

271
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,440
Really.
So I hired a lobbyist and it

272
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,080
turns out it doesn't cost a
briefcase full of cash.

273
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,680
It was like 125 bucks an hour.
I got a guy who got me directly

274
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,560
linked with the governor's
office and I got to talk to like

275
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,960
the, you know, third in charge
or, or whatever COVID czar.

276
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:43,960
I, I forgot what their titles
were.

277
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,680
Yeah, that got me in a position
where I was able to go, look,

278
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,120
what we're doing doesn't make
sense for our industry.

279
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,960
Let me help.
And they were like, oh, yeah,

280
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,720
you want to do it, sure, do it.
So at one point, I had rewritten

281
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,080
the phase two opening guides for
Washington state.

282
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,960
They were active for one week.
And then suddenly it was like,

283
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,200
Oh yeah, we're going to phase
three.

284
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,240
Really.
Yeah, it was.

285
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,680
It was ridiculous.
But yeah, but maybe you helped

286
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,600
convince them to go to, to move,
to do something.

287
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,200
Right.
It was me necessarily.

288
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,680
I think there was a lot of
pressure from the outside world

289
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,200
and from everyone else that that
helped push that along.

290
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,080
But but you know what?
You.

291
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,640
Know what I like about that
story, though, Joe, Like, you

292
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,480
know, I'm not a fan of politics,
of course, and, and we're not

293
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,360
totally aligned on politics, but
I love when someone takes

294
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,680
action, when someone, when it
matters enough to someone that

295
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,640
instead of sitting on a chair
and bitching about it all day,

296
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,560
you actually did something about
it.

297
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,560
And that's amazing.
That's really, really cool.

298
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,440
I didn't know you did that.
I don't think I didn't know that

299
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,400
happened.
Yeah.

300
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,480
It was us and my God, who is it
from, who was taking national

301
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,520
action?
Strickland.

302
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:58,080
Yeah.
Strickland.

303
00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:58,680
Yeah.
Michael.

304
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,680
Strickland, I was always really
impressed with what he did and

305
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:07,160
yet like he was phenomenally key
in getting the PPP in and

306
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,359
getting the EIDL stuff going and
like.

307
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:15,839
Yeah, I know Michael was a game
changer, but Michael, one of his

308
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,800
famous lines and you're saying
the same thing right now when

309
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,240
you said hire a lobbyist.
One of Michael's sayings that he

310
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,680
said over and over again, and
people are rolling their eyes

311
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,040
right now because they probably
heard it 1000 times, but he said

312
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,800
that the big, the difference
between like the airline

313
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,360
industry and the whatever larger
industries, hospitality

314
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,480
industry, the difference between
them and the entertainment live

315
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,080
events industry is that they
were showing up in battleships,

316
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,320
you know, lobbyists and, and
owning politicians and stuff and

317
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,640
we were showing up in 100
canoes.

318
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,240
Yes.
And.

319
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,560
With like, little row boats and
dinghies.

320
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:58,800
Like, please.
Isn't it awesome?

321
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,680
Yeah, you see it every time.
We have no voice.

322
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,720
Every time the airlines, an
airline fails or a bank goes

323
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,080
under, like the government's
lining up to just hand out

324
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,520
money.
Yeah, and bail them out.

325
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,280
And the entertainment industry
doesn't get that.

326
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,280
I mean, yeah, 911 happened and
shit went South.

327
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,840
No one was sitting there with a
check ready to write West Side.

328
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,760
Like, hey, W Sun, just stay in
business.

329
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,440
Here's some cash.
Hell, your business is

330
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,560
completely fucked.
Sorry about that.

331
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,760
Yeah, carry on.
Yeah, no, you're right.

332
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,040
And and obviously, you know, the
the huge spotlight on all of

333
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,840
that was Kovid, you know, was
the fact that I don't know of

334
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,800
any industry that was hurt
harder than than ours.

335
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:41,800
Absolutely not.
Yeah, that's still the.

336
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,960
Same thing where people are like
COVID.

337
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,520
What industry are you in?
Oh, I'm in the air team

338
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,560
industry.
Yeah, well, specifically live

339
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,320
events because even the
entertainment industry, like

340
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,680
they could still find a way to
make movies.

341
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,200
They could still have basketball
games without fans in the seats

342
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,240
and get the television revenue
from it.

343
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,560
Restaurants could still do take
out or delivery.

344
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,360
We couldn't do shit like a drive
in.

345
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,000
How much money are you gonna
make?

346
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,680
If you're successful with a
drive in Rave, you know you

347
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,720
might make enough money to pay
your guys.

348
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,600
We we loaded ourselves, right?
Yeah, like every one of the

349
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,320
random events.
We we tried drive in raves.

350
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,120
We at one point did a drive in
comedy show.

351
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,320
We tried to drive in rock show.
Like none of it.

352
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,680
And everyone who came was
stoked.

353
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,720
Everyone was like Oh my God this
is amazing.

354
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,360
I haven't been to a live showing
forever and I don't give a shit

355
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,400
if I have to sit in my car.
It's the best thing I've done in

356
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,240
like all.
Year.

357
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,360
Yeah.
And yeah, but logistically

358
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,400
there's just no way to make
money on it unless you can rent

359
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,680
out stadiums or something, or
they donate the stadium to you

360
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,160
and you can do it in a stadium,
a drive in stadium show or

361
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,160
something.
Who were?

362
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,280
Donating.
I mean, there was a group who

363
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,600
did a drive in movie and they
took a big video wall and set up

364
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,560
in a parking lot.
But yeah, I don't think they

365
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,640
were.
Actually making they were.

366
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,280
I haven't talked to anybody
basically like.

367
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,000
Enough money to pay people to do
stuff and at least people were

368
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,480
out doing stuff and you could
pay them to do it and.

369
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,960
And that was it.
But there's no.

370
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,320
You know, you know who seemed to
do OK was, what's that EDM guy's

371
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,840
name who's always in his
underwear in his apartment in

372
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,840
New York?
What the hell is his name?

373
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,280
Oh my God.
Mark Ribbelay.

374
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,120
Mark Ribbelay.
And he he did a whole drive in

375
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,320
EDM thing and he says that he
did OK.

376
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,240
He says that he did did well
with it.

377
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,280
And I don't know how again, like
the, the logistics, the math

378
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,240
just doesn't work.
You know, how many cars can I

379
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,000
fit?
100?

380
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,120
OK, how many people can fit in a
car?

381
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,080
Four.
OK, so that's 400 people, you

382
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,560
know, and, and where do they go?
To the bathroom?

383
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,400
Fuck, I never thought of that.
You know, that was the funniest

384
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,760
thing about all of the the
regulations and when we first,

385
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,000
when we first did that drive in
Rave, we based our regulation

386
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,320
off of drive in church because
immediately religion got their

387
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,320
way and suddenly it was like,
oh, of course we have to have

388
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,840
church.
Well, here's some regulations

389
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,360
for it.
Bathrooms were never touched or

390
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,560
talked about.
And when I asked what about the

391
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,680
bathrooms with the government
officials, they just really,

392
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,360
let's change the subject really,
really quick because no one, no

393
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:23,840
one wanted to talk about that.
But there were porta potties all

394
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,560
the way around.
And every and no one ever came

395
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,840
up with guidance for bathrooms,
even when we were going through

396
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,880
reopening.
And they're like, OK, we only

397
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,680
have 25 people in the room.
No one ever said, what about all

398
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,400
the people using the bathroom
and the little tiny closed door.

399
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440
Yeah, person after person.
And like, yeah, just we didn't

400
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,680
want to talk about it.
We conveniently all forgot about

401
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:45,600
that.
Yeah, yeah.

402
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,720
Well, I mean.
In fact, there was some

403
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,440
interesting.
Of course, yeah.

404
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,200
I mean, a lot of them, a lot of
interesting things that you

405
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,800
could talk about for days and
they still are.

406
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,400
I mean, a lot of the guys on on
both wings of the parties, you

407
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,720
know, are still throwing
snowballs at each other.

408
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,880
And that'll never end, I don't
think.

409
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,720
But so you know, we, we, I want
to go back a little bit here

410
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,360
because you have one of the most
interesting and acceptable and

411
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:21,840
logical reasons that you chose
first of all to start a business

412
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,200
in this industry and 2nd where
that business was going to be

413
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,640
based.
So what?

414
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,240
What was that all about?
There was logic to it.

415
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,320
Yeah, I think it's the best
answer ever.

416
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,560
You don't remember the answer?
I don't.

417
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,480
Remember the answer?
What was the answer?

418
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,400
It was a girl, of course.
Yeah.

419
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,960
Yeah, it was terrible.
Terrible.

420
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:48,920
No, it was fine.
It was great.

421
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,760
You know, I was in Arkansas, and
I left Arkansas because there

422
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,800
wasn't much there.
There's more there now, but

423
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,160
yeah, there wasn't much there.
Yeah.

424
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,520
So I moved to Seattle for a
girl.

425
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280
Yeah, partly.
And started a company for a girl

426
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,240
too there.
Career, well, I would say like

427
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,400
that starting the company was
later because no one else was

428
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,640
really doing, no one was really
doing it right.

429
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,240
I mean, we, we had a Christie
shop and they were doing it

430
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,480
right, but they were only doing
so much and there wasn't there

431
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,360
was a gap.
And when we started, we started

432
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:27,360
doing the events that Christie
didn't really care about because

433
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,520
Christie was here for Microsoft.
And so they were like, you know,

434
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,960
if it's under at the time like
10,000 or $20,000, like we don't

435
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,000
really want to do you want to do
it.

436
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,520
Leaves a lot of business.
Do you want?

437
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,320
To do right here and go do it,
Yeah, you should handle that,

438
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,160
You know, so I was doing a lot
of like.

439
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,560
Hand me down, little.
Stuff like little pop up fashion

440
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,160
shows and smaller club stuff and
you know, renting gear from

441
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,360
Christie left and right.
So thank you, Huntley for your

442
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,280
incredible deal on Gears and
thanks to my sales Rep and yeah,

443
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,240
here we are so oh.
That's, that's, that's cool.

444
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,040
So what?
When was this?

445
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,080
This was like early 2000s or
something, right?

446
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,920
Yeah, 2013 is when we officially
started, but I've been, I've

447
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,400
been kind of freelance and doing
independent shows for about four

448
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,440
to five years before that.
OK.

449
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,000
Yeah.
And you started in how?

450
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,120
Like how?
What?

451
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,760
What turned you on to lighting
to begin with?

452
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:39,520
I, man, I started in junior high
with a communications class

453
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,960
taught by Miss Susan Nichols,
whose husband was the scenic

454
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:51,280
designer for the Arkansas Rap.
And I somehow I got into doing

455
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,600
the tech side of things and I
enjoyed it.

456
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,600
And it it I was actually, I was
in the scenic for a while as

457
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,640
well.
Yeah.

458
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,640
And it was something about like,
I basically started in theater,

459
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,240
right?
And as many of us do.

460
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,720
And it was this idea of
transporting people to a

461
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,440
different place and being able
to adjust the mood and take

462
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,840
people on a journey, but also
having no talent whatsoever for

463
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,360
singing or acting or right, that
mess that, you know, and it

464
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,920
causes that.
And, and then I got into like in

465
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,000
like early college, I think I
got into like clubs and music,

466
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,880
the music scene.
And, and, you know, I had a, a

467
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,760
coked out sound guy at a
nightclub going like, no, dude

468
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,200
hit the buttons like this, bro.
And I was like, oh, wow, this is

469
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,320
OK.
Because, you know, before that

470
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,480
you've got your theater
professor.

471
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,160
He was like, OK, let's use no
color amber and no color blue.

472
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,800
And now it's funny.
Yeah, you're like OK, but but

473
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,040
it's no, no, OK.
Yeah, yeah.

474
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,280
Keep it boring, son.
Keep it boring.

475
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,520
Let's design this Neil Simon
play.

476
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,640
What would you do?
Fucking light the set.

477
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,960
OK, OK, can you expand on that?
No, I just lit the fucking set

478
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,200
like.
That's funny.

479
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,040
That's funny.
Theater guys are cringing right

480
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,720
now listening to this.
Absolutely.

481
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,760
And Bob Mario is like.
Yeah, oops.

482
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,200
I'm sorry, Bob.
Yeah, some of it's bullshit.

483
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,840
Bob has some really cool
designs.

484
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,040
And I'll tell you like what
really what really changed my

485
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,160
mind on it was I think maybe the
problem was I'd grown up doing

486
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,960
professional theater at the
Arkansas Rep where I was a

487
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,000
follow spot with like top of the
line production for the time.

488
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,520
And I saw what was possible.
And then when I went to college,

489
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,320
it was like literally hand
drying a plot for a Neil Simon

490
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,840
play with a little like stencil
with, with the field template

491
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,400
thing.
And it was literally like, well,

492
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,880
do you have a sideline at top
45?

493
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,880
OK, do you have an R1 at 45 out?
OK, great, let's do no color.

494
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,160
And it was so boring.
Then when when I when I took

495
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,400
like everything from college, I
was like, why do these big

496
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,480
professional shows look so good?
Like why?

497
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,040
Why does the other stuff look
better?

498
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,040
So I was working as a just a
stagehand on the side for a

499
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,520
local touring house which had
the Broadway tours come in.

500
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,480
At one point.
I became the ME for this house,

501
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,000
this little house called the
Walton Arts Center in

502
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,480
Fayetteville.
Some of you may have toured

503
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,960
through there.
So as the ME, you know, the big,

504
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,880
big Broadway tour comes in and
I'm like, wow, OK, big cool.

505
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,880
Like cool kids, right?
OK, Sir, I've got a full

506
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,400
complement of 10° source floors
in my first first house

507
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,480
position.
I've got some 5° in the outside

508
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,400
house position.
I've got nineteens on the apron.

509
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,840
What can I get you, Sir?
And they're like, son, I need 10

510
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,320
lights.
What?

511
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,640
Well, I just give me 10 fucking
lights, kid.

512
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,600
Do you have any R33?
And that was it.

513
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,920
The entirety of all those
Broadway shows.

514
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,680
There is very little front light
and it's just a little bit to

515
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,520
pop the faces.
Everything you see is all spoken

516
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:06,040
mirrors.
RIP.

517
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,280
A lot of romance out for you
though, like.

518
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,200
Didn't it?
It didn't blow the romance out.

519
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,280
It just blew it.
It blew the whole thing that I

520
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,480
was learning in college and and
all the higher education about

521
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,320
lightning design out the window
because the front light is so

522
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,120
like you read the textbooks and
it's all about these front light

523
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,200
looks and all choosing the right
gel color.

524
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,680
And here comes Broadway, which
looks 1000 times better every

525
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,440
single time.
And it's all about color and

526
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,480
pattern and everything is from
the top and from the back, and

527
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,760
what the front lights are don't
really matter.

528
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,440
Wow.
So that was that.

529
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,280
Was my lesson.
I never heard it said like that.

530
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,840
It.
It, it doesn't matter like your

531
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,400
front, as long as you can see
the faces when you need to see

532
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:49,800
the faces.
And that's not to say that

533
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,840
there's been some amazing stuff
done with design.

534
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,840
There's been some people who
really work with the the actors

535
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,680
and use gobos to a point where
your actors are trained to

536
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,800
actually walk into and out of
the light and get those moments.

537
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,840
And it can be beautiful.
But for 90% of what you look at

538
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,160
in theater settings, front
lights don't matter.

539
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,920
Yeah, as long as you got
something to bump the faces and.

540
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,680
Bump the faces, light the set.
I'm good to go.

541
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,200
You light the set and you can
put gobos all over the set all

542
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,920
you want.
You can do top light, you can do

543
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,960
these amazing looks and that's
that's how you get the really

544
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,200
big looks and Rock'n'roll still
look at like you've got.

545
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,560
Yes, front light can exist and
it can do things, but I would

546
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,680
say that that's my last spend.
If I have a budget, I'm going to

547
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,760
like every, OK, look at look at
ASL 260.

548
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,840
Let's do a crappy show in a
parking lot.

549
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,160
You've got a fixed budget and
ASL 260, so you're going to try

550
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,120
to put as much as you can behind
them.

551
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,720
So you can do beams and gobos
and patterns and everything and

552
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:57,640
downstage you're going to put
two tail panels because they're

553
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,880
just gonna wash the whole stage.
Yeah, bright it up and everyone

554
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,280
who's and yeah, you want
blinders which are forward

555
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,800
facing, you want you want some
beams, you want some hybrids,

556
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,160
like whatever you have you.
But it's all.

557
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480
All the use and AWS.
You want the use and AWS, Yeah,

558
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,600
yeah, I get it.
I mean, that's changed a lot

559
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,880
over the time, over the years,
you know, like, I think moving

560
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,320
lights have changed based on
video too, you know, obviously.

561
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,840
Like we're being so much BL and
all the additive color mix stuff

562
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,840
which which is creating a higher
CRI for everything, which is

563
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,920
great.
Yeah, but I think beams replaced

564
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,520
wash lights at some point
because of the video screens and

565
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,240
that that sort of front wash
light with the KL panels started

566
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,240
to happen where you were just
washing the whole stage and then

567
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,440
the beams were doing all the
work and the video wall was

568
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,920
cutting through it all.
But when, when did you get

569
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,080
access to moving lights?
Like I'm guessing these low

570
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,640
budget theater shows and stuff,
you weren't getting moving

571
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,320
lights yet.
I I so I I was sitting in the

572
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,680
back of the Walton Arts Center
with the big Broadway tours and

573
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,240
every time they came through
with a big old cyber light turbo

574
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,920
or, or a jeez, what were those
things?

575
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:16,040
The color Wah, the high end
system, the studio spots, studio

576
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,880
colors.
Yeah, like those things.

577
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,640
And I, I was sitting in the back
like, Hey, you gonna take that

578
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,840
apart?
Hey, can I can I can I watch

579
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,960
and, you know, kind of creepy,
right.

580
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,360
I'm stalking the moving light
tech.

581
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Yeah, but my first I got to
program a show on a on a hog two

582
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,720
out the wall, a dance show and
we have like 4 movers in the in

583
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,880
the rig that we had rented from
Missouri.

584
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,640
OK.
So weren't any in Arkansas?

585
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,000
Interesting.
That was that was kind of the

586
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,080
first time I, I think maybe the
first time I really got to play.

587
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:55,720
There's a club in Seattle called
the Triple Door and it is a it's

588
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640
a beautiful venue.
It's a very small venue.

589
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,560
So it's like, I don't know,
maybe 2-3 hundred cap, but it's

590
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:10,120
built in an old, I think it was
a prohibition era Speakeasy

591
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,560
theater.
And it's got the beautiful like

592
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,800
the, the, the, the shell and
like all the seats are these

593
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,120
like very mafia club looking
seats and a nice little rake.

594
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,280
And it's got a, a beautiful
proscenium with all the plaster

595
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,960
work and like gold.
And it's owned by a Thai

596
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,600
restaurant who took over the
building and they redid the,

597
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,680
they redid all of it.
And it's, it's just phenomenal.

598
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,480
And they, they put money in it
and they had a, there's a guy

599
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,080
named Paul there who really
keeps the gear up and keeps

600
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,320
everything working.
And well into the 2000s, he had

601
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,000
high end system color studio
colors studio spot, two 50s.

602
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,800
And God, what did what was
their, their, their moving

603
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,040
static, their static RGB color
pro.

604
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,880
Sorry, static C&Y color walk the
color spot or something?

605
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,360
Color Pro.
The color pros, yeah, and they

606
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,640
had those in a star drop and a
Hog 500 and.

607
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,880
Oh wow.
Or no, 1000, a HOG 1000 and that

608
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,280
was the first like working there
was the first time I really got

609
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,920
access to everything was a
mover.

610
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,600
Everything if it wasn't a mover,
at least had CMY Wow.

611
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,280
And so being able to program
that and play with that rig.

612
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,960
Oh, that had to be a lot of fun
for you.

613
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,080
It was.
A ton of fun.

614
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,360
Yeah, and you have to change
color on everything.

615
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,040
Oh, you can.
And yeah, I tell you, if you

616
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,640
don't clean start that hog 1000
I could crash that bad boy every

617
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,080
single show cuz that was funny.
I could run with the live

618
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,720
programmer on it.
That's funny.

619
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,840
Yeah, the Jans Hog and all that
stuff.

620
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,720
Yeah, I remember those consoles,
man.

621
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,320
We sold loads of those on the
used market until, I don't know

622
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,120
now.
Like there's probably still some

623
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,440
listed on gear source but I
don't remember seeing one.

624
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,760
But just in a while.
Facebook post with the MA1 for

625
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,320
sale.
Really.

626
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,520
Yeah, we get those every once in
a while.

627
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,040
Yeah, I mean, but the problem
is, you know it, those are

628
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,680
nostalgia for people I think
they buy them from, because

629
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,000
you're not going to buy it to
use necessarily.

630
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,199
You're going to buy it just to
keep it in your shop or put it

631
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,560
in your office or something for
a museum piece.

632
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,840
So it's like the shipping is
more than the console sometimes.

633
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,600
You know, it's like VL three
thousands.

634
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,080
Like for the longest time VL
three thousands were selling

635
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,360
used for new prices for a long,
long time and now it's like

636
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,960
they're $200.00.
You know the case is worth more

637
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,520
than the lights that are in it.
Oh, yeah.

638
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,320
Well, remember when when the 2K
suddenly went to being defunct

639
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,840
and then there were videos of
people chucking them off the

640
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,679
dock or like, yeah, trebucheting
them or like, yeah, Christian

641
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:45,880
Jackson, like rounding them up
and.

642
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,520
Shooting ammunition.
Yeah, that was hilarious.

643
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,560
That lighting shootout thing
that he did.

644
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,239
I loved it.
I mean, what a what a great

645
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:54,800
concept.
He needs to do it again.

646
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,600
The shootout too.
Get Dearson to bring some heavy,

647
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,800
heavy artillery into to do it.
You know, Dearson.

648
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480
Didn't they have like some
thermite and some C5 and some of

649
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,000
that?
They had some pretty wild stuff,

650
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,040
you know, and to do it as a live
stream was just.

651
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,880
Crazy range in Vegas where you
can shoot a tank.

652
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,160
Well, yeah, you can shoot tanks,
but you can also like Dierson

653
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,920
does it every year for LDI where
Joe, if you want to go, I can

654
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,720
connect you to it.
But every year for LDI, he

655
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:29,480
brings people up in helicopters
and with guns that, you know,

656
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,040
are on the the thing in the
helicopter, I think it's called

657
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,200
a turret.
You're sitting there with, I

658
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,080
think they're 50 Cal or
something.

659
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,360
You're just shooting at the
desert from the helicopter with

660
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,000
these massive guns.
Wow.

661
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,440
It's.
Not throw some VLS out there.

662
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,480
That'd be cool.
That'd be a great idea.

663
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,560
Like, you know, but four more
years, five more years.

664
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:51,680
How long is a Viper really going
to?

665
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,680
Last, who wants to go down there
and put the lights out though,

666
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,920
when helicopters are flying with
machine guns in?

667
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,640
I don't know, I.
Think there's got to be some

668
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,400
form of gun safety?
Yeah, we're talking about Las

669
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,120
Vegas and we're talking about
the desert and, you know, people

670
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,880
who are paying thousands of
dollars to be in this helicopter

671
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,040
to shoot guns.
So, yeah, it's funny, you know,

672
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,800
like, you knew that something
was changing in Vegas when all

673
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,840
the taxi advertisements switched
from strip clubs to go shoot

674
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,360
automatic rifles.
You know, it was like, whoa,

675
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:29,600
what happened?
You know, there's no more strip

676
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,200
club ads.
And now they're now they're all

677
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,560
talking about shooting guns and
doing weird shit.

678
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,520
Yeah, I guess.
Maybe.

679
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,960
Cleaning it up, other states
opened up their strip club laws

680
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,040
and like suddenly other states
were allowed to have strip clubs

681
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,000
as well and.
So maybe that's it, I don't

682
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:46,760
know.
I mean what?

683
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,320
Or maybe strip clubs in?
Vegas to see a bunch of naked

684
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,760
ladies who aren't going to have
sex with you either, like.

685
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,040
Not in Vegas.
In Vegas they are like in Vegas.

686
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,520
That's something that shifted.
But like.

687
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,600
Right rumor.
That's something though, that

688
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,280
shit.
Elsewhere they will too, but

689
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,960
like yeah I I personally don't
understand strip clubs because I

690
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,000
can't think of a single place I
could go and spend a lot of

691
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,160
money to have nobody want to
have sex with me.

692
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,520
More leave frustrated.
Yeah, spend a whole bunch of

693
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,000
money to leave frustrated.
Right, Yeah, I could go to a

694
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,520
bar, spend a bunch of money and
maybe go home with somebody, you

695
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,800
know?
Like, yeah.

696
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,520
What?
I get it.

697
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,040
I get it.
You know what though, There's I,

698
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,760
I haven't been in years.
I got to be perfectly honest,

699
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,960
but when I went a lot, usually
at LDI.

700
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,240
It's just a.
Fun thing for a bunch of dudes

701
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,920
on expense accounts to do.
On expense accounts.

702
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,840
I worked for moving light
manufacturers in the day.

703
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,280
I've gone on my own expense
account a few times too, but on

704
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,040
expense accounts.
Go smoke cigars, drink expensive

705
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,680
whiskey and and talk to girls
who in the real world would

706
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,160
never even say hello to you, you
know, And so it's just, it's a

707
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,840
goofy pastime.
Like I didn't go there with any

708
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,080
desires or expectations.
I wasn't looking to get laid or

709
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,120
anything.
I was just having fun with the

710
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,680
boys and talking some shit and
then going home to bed in in my

711
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,360
hotel.
But but it's just funny how it's

712
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,520
all shifted to ads for guns and
stuff now on the on all the

713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,640
taxis.
It's It's so weird.

714
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,200
Eventually they're going to have
to come up with something new

715
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,720
that you can only do in Vegas.
Yeah.

716
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:32,000
So from that early career, like
at some point you just saw an

717
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,120
opportunity of these shows that
Christie wasn't doing or didn't

718
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,400
want to do and you went, hey,
you know, I could go start a

719
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,640
company and do that.
Is that how that works?

720
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,760
It was partially that and then
kind of the the evolution of the

721
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,280
LED.
Yeah.

722
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,160
That was another big kind of
change point.

723
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,440
And you know, there were a lot
of smaller AV companies, so I

724
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,600
was freelancing for.
And, you know, we, we knew what

725
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,000
LEDs could do.
The color blast existed, but

726
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,720
Christie only had thirty of them
in town.

727
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,360
And at that, yeah, I think they
had partnered with like Midnight

728
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,360
hour or something out of out of
Canada.

729
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,880
So like they didn't really even
own their own LED, but they had

730
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,480
a deal going.
So they, they had some color

731
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,840
blasts in town and yeah, for a
while, like if, yeah, if your

732
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,440
show happened to fall on some
point when like there wasn't a

733
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,200
Microsoft show, it sucked up all
the inventory of all 30

734
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,680
fixtures.
You could grab some and yeah,

735
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,080
maybe do your show, but then,
you know, the budget wasn't

736
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:33,600
there.
And I, I, I found some cheap CK

737
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,320
knockoffs on Alibaba and I
bought a pallet of them.

738
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,720
Really yeah.
And I.

739
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:40,360
Because the customer didn't know
any different.

740
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,280
Well, the, I think customer knew
a little different, but not too

741
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,800
much different.
That was kind of the, the, so

742
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,880
the ones I ended up buying, I
wish I would have done more

743
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,880
research because we all learned
about pulse width modulation and

744
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,120
how that looks on video.
Yeah, and the first stuff like

745
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:58,800
no one was paying attention to
that really.

746
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,520
So the, the, the first fifty of
those I have for a long time.

747
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,040
We discovered they didn't work
too well on camera unless they

748
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,800
were a full blast.
So they got delegated to do in

749
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,240
more like rock'n'roll and and
theater and and stuff like that.

750
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,320
So.
Where it didn't matter as much.

751
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,240
Where, yeah, it didn't matter
your pulse with your, they

752
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,720
didn't make weird bars on camera
when you dimmed them down.

753
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,120
So we, we, we, we used the heck
out of them.

754
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,760
And then we I think that at that
point like some of the

755
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,120
manufacturers started getting
wind of this and state they

756
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,040
started shifting and you start
seeing advertisements for like

757
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,720
very good light pulse with
modulation, OK.

758
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,000
Yeah.
And it, it changed and, you

759
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,080
know, that's one of those weird,
like, you know, everyone talks

760
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,000
about China in, in different
ways.

761
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,640
And it's, it's one of those,
well, everything's made in China

762
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,360
almost.
There are some comments.

763
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,760
CK is made in China.
Color Kinetics was made in

764
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,760
China.
Absolutely.

765
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:04,960
And things like the LED par, who
really invented the LED par?

766
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,240
I would argue that China
invented the LED PAR like I

767
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:10,640
think.
It was.

768
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,720
Komar I think it was.
Komar, I think it was Komar.

769
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,840
Komar.
Komar came out with the first

770
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,560
LED par.
It was just called the Parlite

771
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,360
LED and they sold 10s.
Of.

772
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,960
Thousands of those things, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a

773
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,640
little black par.
They sold 10s of thousands of

774
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,720
these things, like just
gazillions of them just falling

775
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:32,840
off trucks.
You know, they were just they

776
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,720
sold them all day long because
it was really the first light

777
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,240
that came out after the color
blast.

778
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,880
That was really common sense
logical and and could be used on

779
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,640
shows and stuff.
And it really wasn't bright

780
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,960
enough to to replace like 1000
Watt par or even a 600 Watt par.

781
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,920
Yeah, but it it like people use
them for trust owners all day

782
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,680
long.
It was a great trust owner.

783
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,720
And you know, smaller shows you
could use them as pars.

784
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,120
You couldn't use them on like an
arena show as pars.

785
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,920
They just weren't bright enough
eye.

786
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,880
Candy stuff and and what?
Yeah, eye candy, but they were

787
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,560
great.
I mean, they still exist.

788
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,640
There's there's I get them, we
get them on gear source all the

789
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,320
time, you know, and people have
upgraded the LE DS in them and

790
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,600
made them brighter.
And, you know, it's just a light

791
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,880
that won't go away because it
was built by Italians in Italy,

792
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,680
you know, and built like a, a
freaking tank.

793
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,280
You know, they they were built
to survive anything.

794
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,840
So, yeah.
But you know.

795
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,840
Is, is, I mean, the difference
between that and the CK colour

796
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,760
blast at the end of the day, the
light output.

797
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,640
I mean, that's The funny thing
about about pars these days is,

798
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,760
you know, there's no more
parabolic reflectors.

799
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,640
Yeah, it's now just a wash light
and then you have a zooming par

800
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,320
that makes a circle that goes
in, out.

801
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,040
Yeah.
So is that a for now or is that

802
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,320
a par?
Well, so there's some other

803
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,720
companies, there are some
companies who did some with with

804
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:07,280
the parabolic reflector and you
know, the LED firing backwards.

805
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,840
So it was an LED package firing
backwards into the reflector and

806
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,120
it just never really caught on
that big.

807
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,400
You know, it wasn't the most
efficient way to get light out

808
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,600
the front end of the fixture.
And, and it also made it harder

809
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,760
to cool them too, because you
have, you know, the biggest

810
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,200
challenge with LE DS, as you
know very well is keeping them

811
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,960
cool enough, because if you
don't cool them, you run into

812
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,520
all kinds of problems very early
on in, in that fixtures life.

813
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:40,200
And so the, the, the contact
temperature for an LED is very

814
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,960
low.
Like I don't know what it is

815
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,880
these days, but I remember at
one point it was something like

816
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,320
70 or 80 Celsius.
It wasn't very high at all that

817
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,480
you needed to keep that
temperature below that.

818
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,640
And and so you know, some of the
biggest problems because I had

819
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,600
an LED company very early on and
also Gear Source.

820
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,320
So one of the where Christie got
a lot of their color blast was

821
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,560
from me at Gear Source.
We had this crazy opportunity

822
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,200
where we were contacted by
Circuit City.

823
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,280
And so Circuit City, this is a
blast from the past because they

824
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,240
closed a long time ago, but
Circuit City had come up with

825
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:21,960
this design to redo all of their
stores.

826
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,800
One of the things architectural
lighting designers put in like,

827
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,160
I don't know, 500 color blasts
in every store or some crazy

828
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,920
amount of color blasts in every
store and they never installed

829
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,320
them.
They sat for like 6 months, a

830
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,080
new CEO came in, they were
having all kinds of financial

831
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,960
problems and stuff and somebody
pulled the plug on the on the

832
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,640
project.
And so this was like almost a

833
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,880
year after Color Kinetics had
sold them.

834
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,800
And I, I can't remember the
original number, I think it was

835
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,760
8000 color blasts.
And then there was some other

836
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,280
stuff too.
And so I get a call from a

837
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,240
company that has been hired to
get rid of these color blasts

838
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,800
because CK wouldn't take them
back, of course.

839
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:11,040
And so I get a call from this,
this liquidation company who

840
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,560
knows nothing about what they've
got.

841
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,760
All they know is they've got
these color kinetics color

842
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,080
blasts.
They went online, how do we sell

843
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,920
these things?
And they found gear source.

844
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,960
And so I'm like, yeah, we can
help you sell those.

845
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,880
I mean, we understand where they
need to go and who they need to

846
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,720
go to and that kind of thing.
Well, Long story short, at the

847
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,960
time color blasts were selling
for around 1000 bucks each at

848
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,680
dealer cost.
These were sold at 399 each.

849
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:42,360
And so of course you can imagine
like we were selling 50 to 100 a

850
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,280
day every single day, sometimes
more, you know, sometimes we get

851
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,400
a 500 piece order and stuff like
that.

852
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,280
And they were shipping straight
out of color kinetics warehouse

853
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:57,080
and or out of, I'm sorry, out of
Circuit City's warehouse.

854
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:03,600
And I mean, it it for us for
probably four or six months, it

855
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,880
became a big source of our
revenue.

856
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,480
Like we were doing almost
$1,000,000 a month just in color

857
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,400
blasts some months, you know?
And so, yeah, we sold tons of

858
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,600
them to CK or to Christie, tons
of them to Upstaging, tons of

859
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,560
them to Bandit, to PRG, all the
big rental companies.

860
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,200
We sold so many color blasts it
was crazy.

861
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,120
So yeah, it was fun.
So that was so a couple of

862
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,440
things that sort of drove sort
of that foundation of LED in our

863
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:35,680
industry.
And I don't know if you know

864
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,400
these stories, but one was that
Color Kinetic sued everybody for

865
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,960
pulse width modulation control
over RGB.

866
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,840
Absolutely, and it boggles my
mind that they still have the

867
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,200
patent on RGB color mixing.
Well, so here's the thing, they

868
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,200
don't have the patent on RGB
color mixing.

869
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,200
They have the patent on pulse
width modulation control of LED

870
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,720
color mixing.
So doing and everybody just

871
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:03,680
found other ways around it.
And So what happened was, you

872
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,320
know, and, and so the head
engineer of of Komar at the

873
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,680
time, Fausto or Asadi is a good
friend of mine.

874
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,480
Fausto used to always say to me,
it's incredible that this

875
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,960
American company got this patent
on pulse width modulation

876
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,040
control.
When I read about this in

877
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,840
textbooks in like the 7th grade,
you know, this is something

878
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,600
that's been around since the
like, it's not a new thing, you

879
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,720
guys and your crazy patents in
the United States, this is nuts.

880
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,840
But what that did them having
such tight patents on this, it

881
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,720
scared all the European
companies away.

882
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,720
So it's stopped innovation in a
sense.

883
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:45,800
It slowed innovation in that the
US is the biggest market so less

884
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,120
companies were inspired to
design fixtures.

885
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,400
But it stopped product from
coming into the United States as

886
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,800
well because everyone was so
scared cuz literally CK had

887
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,680
lawyers that would just walk
around handing out cease and

888
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,560
desist letters at LDI and get
those fixtures off your booth

889
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,840
right now.
Or we'll, we'll come down here

890
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,200
and wrap, you know, tape around
your booth and close your booth

891
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,320
tomorrow.
And it was terrible.

892
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:13,520
It was terrible.
What happened?

893
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:19,880
So then when CK sold to
Phillips, Phillips went with

894
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,320
that program for a little while
and then they went, you know

895
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,960
what, there's probably a way to
make more money, let's just go

896
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,160
out and license to everyone.
And so they got really loose and

897
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,920
liberal with their licensing
policies.

898
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:36,240
And even Chinese factories were
getting licenses to be able to

899
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,240
copy or use their patents and
sell products directly into the

900
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,640
US market.
And that's when it just became a

901
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,200
free for all.
So year, I would guess that was

902
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:53,680
probably 2007, 2006 maybe when
it just got crazy opened up.

903
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,280
Sounds about right.
Yeah.

904
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,680
Everything opened up.
That slowed the start of things

905
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,280
like they almost tried to sort
of betamax the LED fixture, like

906
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,240
where we own the rights.
Nobody else is going to come up

907
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:08,120
with anything.
But then the industry always

908
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:09,960
finds a way.
You know, we're a pretty smart

909
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,520
industry and they found a way
and since that time we've seen

910
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,880
incredible innovation.
It's just amazing.

911
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:23,640
Like if you would have told me
in 2000 that we'd have LED

912
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:30,840
sourced fixtures that were
brighter than xenon fixtures or

913
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:32,720
whatever, I'd be like, no way,
you're kidding.

914
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,960
But it's just incredible the
amount, I don't think.

915
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,600
We've got, we're not quite there
right like we, we've got pretty

916
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,640
pictures that are as bright as
Xenon, but we haven't quite

917
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:42,760
surpassed the Xenon.
Right, right.

918
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,720
Yeah, exactly.
It it's an interesting.

919
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,880
Well, now the laser stuff, you
know, the laser phosphor stuff,

920
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,400
like it, that robot eye bolt,
that thing's incredibly bright.

921
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,240
Yep.
The bolt and the what?

922
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:59,280
The radius the.
All of that stuff, Yeah.

923
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,200
The Elation 1, exactly.
That thing's bright as hell the,

924
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,080
you know, And then some of the
like Ayrton has that little tiny

925
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,080
thing that's in the magic dot.
It's called the Kailami.

926
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,640
I think it's called.
I always call it salami, but I

927
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:14,880
know.
That's sort of sports car,

928
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,720
right?
Yeah, yeah, either a sports car

929
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,080
or a track.
They've gone on to a lot of the

930
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,080
the real iconic European race
tracks and stuff.

931
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,280
But yeah, that little Kailami
thing, it's like this big and

932
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,560
it's got the 100 Watt laser in
it and it's cool as hell.

933
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,800
And I think Eric told me either
they have one coming or one came

934
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,480
out or something from Elation as
well, a tiny little 100 Watt

935
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,920
laser.
But yeah, I mean, there's a lot

936
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,080
of cool stuff.
Like, you know, I'm older than

937
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,680
you, you guys are.
You guys are spoiled with the

938
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,600
shit that you've got now.
Like, you know, I grew up

939
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,000
selling pals and and robo scans
and stuff.

940
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,880
You know when when you know now
today none of those fixtures

941
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,600
would stand up to 100 Watt LED
fixture.

942
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,840
It's incredible.
Well, I count myself lucky that

943
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,720
my high school had a radio stat
dimming system with manual

944
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,000
interlocking submasters.
And.

945
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,680
Patch Bay and absolutely no
instruction whatsoever.

946
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,880
And I really showed up in high
school and said, oh, I'm in the

947
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,520
tech theater.
Yeah, I like lighting.

948
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,360
And they were like, great kid,
there you go.

949
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:29,240
So I had a free, free reign, a
full fly system with absolutely

950
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:31,640
zero training.
And I didn't kill myself.

951
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,960
I didn't kill anybody, but I had
a great time learning some

952
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,360
things.
You know, The thing is, that's

953
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,040
how most people learned in our
industry is, is trial by fire,

954
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,120
you know, and it's one of the
cool things about our industry.

955
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,320
It's crazy.
Like when you tell people, you

956
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,040
know, that we're putting up
these massive rigs and half the

957
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,080
crew don't know what they're
doing.

958
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,200
They're learning right now.
You know, it's like, really.

959
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,920
Yeah, which which is an
interesting thing, right?

960
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:03,040
So in our industry, and I've
had, I've had this issue with

961
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,120
crew, right?
So we've got, we've got kids who

962
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,760
come in and they're like, oh, I
want to be, I want to do this.

963
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,800
And almost immediately they're
like, why am I not making $55 an

964
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,800
hour?
That guy's making, you know.

965
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,680
Yeah, they're making a $1200 day
rate.

966
00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:20,960
And it's like, well, you just
started.

967
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,240
You don't know what you're doing
yet.

968
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,280
Yeah, well, I did a show
yesterday.

969
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,640
Yeah, yeah.
So now you're one day

970
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,440
experienced you.
Should I think you're right, a

971
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,320
little bit plagued by that.
And you look at like the

972
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,240
construction industry where they
have a very defined intern

973
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:39,400
program and a very, you know,
our industry has what Full Sail

974
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,680
where they teach you to be a
better designer.

975
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:45,520
But no one, no one's really
sitting you down and going this

976
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,120
is how you make labels or this
is how you convert an Excel

977
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,800
sheet into a mail merge, or.
Well, folks, folks are trying to

978
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,840
like the ESA for example, is a
great organization and but you

979
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,520
know, to get it mandated is the
tough part.

980
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,840
Like that's where that's where
it's really difficult is to

981
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,360
start mandating that stuff.
Paying a bunch of kids to train

982
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,000
and we're paying them top dollar
to figure it out.

983
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:14,080
Well, and Joe, it's probably
worse now that since COVID,

984
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,720
right, because we had a lot of
the.

985
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,080
Ultra retired or quit and moved
on and now we've got all all new

986
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,440
up and coming young ones.
I mean, I've seen some pretty

987
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,040
weird stuff.
Yeah.

988
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:29,600
Recently we had a call with a
certain labor company in a sub

989
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:36,640
arena and the riggers hung the
motors and then they stopped and

990
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:37,920
we were like what about the
truck?

991
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,960
What about wrapping the truck
like, oh, we don't do that.

992
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,160
So the riggers said that they
don't wrap the Truss or run

993
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,320
motor cable.
So we went to the electricians

994
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:48,920
and said, hey, we need you to
run this motor cable.

995
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,400
Oh, we don't touch that.
That's rigging.

996
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,600
God, you said, we have.
To give him a call, Stewart, who

997
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,480
eventually comes over, is like,
OK, we're going to figure, OK,

998
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,680
you guys all right, riggers, you
have to do.

999
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,480
And it was just like, how many
years have a decades have we

1000
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,080
been doing rigging?
That is crazy.

1001
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,800
Suddenly there's like a labor
stop because our the crew

1002
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,400
doesn't know who does what
anymore.

1003
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,960
It's nuts.
Yeah, that's crazy.

1004
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,480
No.
And it's such a valuable point.

1005
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,440
And I talk about this on almost
every podcast episode these

1006
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,520
days.
Is, is there's just such a lack

1007
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,080
of training in our industry and
especially like formal training,

1008
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,640
you know, like you have to have
at least this certificate to be

1009
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,480
able to do this.
There's none of that.

1010
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,640
And again.
Certifications coming out of

1011
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,960
Vegas, they're, you know, those
are handy, those are nice.

1012
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,960
But yeah, I'd like to see
something more like a an

1013
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,560
official apprenticeship program.
So you can't be a qualified me

1014
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,600
unless you've done so many hours
with somebody, right?

1015
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,360
And I mean, that's something
that works really well in the

1016
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,680
construction industry.
So yeah, you follow, you follow

1017
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:54,080
like Greasy Palmer around for a
year and then you're allowed to

1018
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,200
go out and make real money.
Yeah, no, that makes sense.

1019
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,840
And, and I completely agree with
you.

1020
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,040
And, and so there's, I think
there's two different topics

1021
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,920
there, though, right?
Like there's training and then

1022
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,840
there's certification,
basically.

1023
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,560
Sure.
And so I think at the end of the

1024
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,600
day, when everybody's running
really fast, like what you're

1025
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,760
basically doing is you're saying
slow down.

1026
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,560
We need to put this program in
place.

1027
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,920
And right now everybody's deaf
to it, you know, until the

1028
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,240
building's on fire, nobody wants
to figure out where the fire

1029
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,480
hoses are, right?
Like, I mean, that's probably a

1030
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,680
terrible analogy, but you know,
until it's a problem, it's not a

1031
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,600
problem.
That's how our industry tends to

1032
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,200
look at most of these things.
And I mean, it's a problem now,

1033
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,640
but we're all too busy trying to
staff shows.

1034
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,160
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, that's the thing.

1035
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,280
Like you need, number one, I
need enough bodies #2 I need

1036
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,600
good bodies.
So, you know, somewhere in there

1037
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,080
there's, there's an answer.
But one of the things that I've

1038
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:52,480
seen that I think is at least
promising is so many of at least

1039
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,080
the larger companies, or
especially the larger companies

1040
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,960
that I'm aware of.
And maybe you get involved in

1041
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,640
something, I don't know.
But the larger companies are

1042
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,840
doing their own training
programs and and they're they're

1043
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,760
recruiting and then they're
training their staff and you got

1044
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,480
to go through this program to
get on to our shows.

1045
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:17,080
And so that I think is promising
and think it's been done from

1046
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,440
necessity.
Like I think the companies like

1047
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,880
the upstagings and PRGS and
bandits of the world, they need

1048
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,200
to do those things.
You know, they need to Christie

1049
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,160
solo tech, any of these four
wall the companies that are

1050
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,440
hiring, you know, tons and tons
of people, not just one or two

1051
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:39,640
people or whatever they need to
to make the pool bigger and and.

1052
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,360
And deeper.
Bigger and deeper.

1053
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,280
Even as a mid sized company,
we've done some of that.

1054
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,800
So we've done the winter went
slow, we've done like an IT

1055
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:54,600
class for networking, for shows.
Yeah we've got some of our more

1056
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,400
experienced Mees come in and
just sit down and go okay this

1057
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,960
is a node yeah how do I get the
system to talk Arknet?

1058
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,560
How do I get to talk SACN?
How do we do MA net?

1059
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,960
What what are the pitfalls like
OK, yeah your IP address is

1060
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,440
matched.
That's a problem like just the

1061
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,480
basic stuff and.
Yeah, Well, should maybe.

1062
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,720
I don't know.
I don't know how unions operate

1063
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,960
and stuff, but should the unions
or labor companies get involved

1064
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,160
in incentivizing companies to
provide that type of training?

1065
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,920
Yeah, I think that'd be great.
Yeah.

1066
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,440
I think that would be a huge
step in the right direction.

1067
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,800
But I don't see, I don't see
IOTSE.

1068
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,160
I do, I see IOTSE doing
training.

1069
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,400
They do quite a bit of rigging
training.

1070
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,000
They do quite a bit of like
basic stage hand training, which

1071
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,640
is kind of like, OK, this is a
road case like this is how you

1072
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,680
push it down a ramp.
And yeah, there's there's no mid

1073
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,640
level there.
And, and part of it is because

1074
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,240
IA, at least in our region, IA
is doing the kind of the box

1075
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,760
pushing stuff.
But there there's no, other than

1076
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,240
a couple of major theatre
houses, There's no one who's on

1077
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,920
the IA who's being an ME,
There's no one who's doing a

1078
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,520
load balance.
There's no one who's actually

1079
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,760
patching the show.
Yeah, they're, they're either at

1080
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,280
the arena and some guy comes in
on the tour and says plug the

1081
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,440
red 1 into the red one, the blue
1 into the blue and don't fuck

1082
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,360
it up.
Or yeah, they're actually

1083
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,560
working at a theatre house like
the 5th Ave. or the Paramount

1084
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,600
where they're they're doing
their own work and doing their

1085
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,240
own patch and stuff.
But there's those jobs are

1086
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,400
taken, there's only, there's
only so many of those jobs

1087
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:30,520
available that are a higher
level like that kind of ME L2,

1088
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,480
whatever you want to call it.
So that IA doesn't invest a lot

1089
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,240
of money at least in our region
in training those those roles

1090
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,960
because they don't need to.
It's a bit disappointing though,

1091
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,040
because like as you know, most,
if not all of the manufacturers

1092
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,080
in our industry are willing to
get involved and and promote

1093
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,640
their own training programs,
many or most of which are free.

1094
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:57,040
And so I think like if you were
to go to an elation and say,

1095
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,680
Hey, I need you to do an
advanced moving light.

1096
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,400
Well, it's probably not that
advanced beginners moving light

1097
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,840
training on how to do this, how
to hang it, how to get it out of

1098
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,200
the road case, how to whatever.
I mean, you could probably do

1099
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:11,360
that yourself.
You don't need.

1100
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,920
Elation for that, yeah, I mean,
all that's kind of already

1101
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,400
covered, right?
It's the skills that are missing

1102
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,760
are How do I effectively
troubleshoot ADMX line?

1103
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:22,240
Yeah.
Right.

1104
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:27,040
How how do I figure out that a
power that that a true one is

1105
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,640
bad?
Or like, how do I troubleshoot

1106
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,600
power?
Where where do I start and where

1107
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,280
do I finish and how do I
determine?

1108
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,960
Because we get stuff back all
the time and our repair guy

1109
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:39,680
jokes that like about 30% of the
gear that comes back to shop to

1110
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,720
the shop marches in FG.
Yeah, it's actually fine.

1111
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,760
There's nothing wrong with it.
It's something else that's been

1112
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,440
wrong.
Well, you know, I know Kadena is

1113
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,320
getting involved in a lot of
training all over the country.

1114
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,080
Well, and even the world.
I think he travels outside the

1115
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,440
US to do training.
You do, you know Richard Kadina?

1116
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,280
Yeah.
Yeah.

1117
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,320
You know, brilliant guy and he
gets involved I think with the

1118
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,320
unions.
I think he does union training.

1119
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,720
And the cool thing about him is,
is, you know, it's from

1120
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:12,360
electricity all the way through
to moving light, whatever.

1121
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,520
Like he can, he can go as in
depth as you need to go well.

1122
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,240
He wrote.
He's an amazing trainer.

1123
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,720
Yeah, he wrote books on it, but
he's an incredible trainer and,

1124
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,400
and a very smart guy and, you
know, an accomplished author and

1125
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,120
all of those things.
But there's only one of him, you

1126
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:33,000
know, So we need more guys like
him who, who have sort of

1127
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,840
carved, carved out this niche.
But again, I think #1 you need

1128
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,560
customers who demand it, you
know, because that demand

1129
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,160
obviously creates, you know,
incentive and supply.

1130
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,880
Like the show to load in on time
and work correct I I think

1131
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,400
that's where the.
This is the problem, right?

1132
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,640
Yeah, this is the problem.
If you take a, you get maxed out

1133
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,640
and you take these kids who like
haven't had much experience and

1134
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,960
you suddenly throw them on a
show and oh, magic, you're the

1135
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,560
lead.
And they, they don't know what

1136
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,760
the like.
It takes time to get to that

1137
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,560
point where, yeah, you may have
worked like four or five shows

1138
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,920
and things have gone great.
Yeah, but you haven't had that

1139
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,480
problem.
And then suddenly you have that

1140
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,560
problem and you're just like,
what do I do?

1141
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,480
What do I do?
And it's, it's, I think that's

1142
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,040
why look at the construction
industry has that year long

1143
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,520
apprenticeship program or two
year long like so you're an

1144
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,720
electrician, you're, you're
clocking next many hours, you're

1145
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,720
working for a full year, a full
2 years at at that lower rate.

1146
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,800
But again, the difference is.
Master electrician who?

1147
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,920
Really?
An actual certified electrician

1148
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,600
knows what they're doing.
Yeah.

1149
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,840
You're likely to have come
across all of the potential

1150
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,240
problems you might have come
across and you're going to learn

1151
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,640
the trick that you're going to
learn the actual trade.

1152
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,520
We got some of these kids in who
like they really want to be an

1153
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,400
me and really what they want to
do is be a, they really want to

1154
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,160
be a programmer.
But people who can actually load

1155
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,120
shows in and you set them down,
you give them a capture file,

1156
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,360
you give them a plot, and
they're like, what do I do?

1157
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:01,720
Yeah.
But why I keep saying this whole

1158
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,760
thing about incentive is like,
again comparing it to the

1159
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,280
construction industry where you
have building codes and you have

1160
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,920
inspectors and you have every
step of the way an inspector

1161
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,760
comes in and goes, Yep, you
drilled that hole deep enough or

1162
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,080
or, you know, you ran that wire
enough or whatever it is.

1163
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:21,080
And whereas in our industry we
don't have any of that stuff.

1164
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,480
You know, inspectors all the
time, but they're, they're the

1165
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,440
city electrical inspector who
has never read the NEC code on

1166
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,160
temporary electrical power.
And they walk in and go, yeah,

1167
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,120
you have to put cable ramps on
all of those fixtures that are

1168
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:39,720
against the wall.
So they might be looking for ADA

1169
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,640
compliance or things like that,
but.

1170
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:43,680
We, we.
And every time we, the city of

1171
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,320
Seattle gets a new electrical
inspector, it's a battle because

1172
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,520
they, yeah, literally never read
the NEC code for temporary

1173
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:50,760
power.
Yeah.

1174
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,240
And they come onto a job site
and they make their demands,

1175
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,360
which are over the top absurd.
And then it.

1176
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,080
Takes a few.
Weeks at the point, they're kind

1177
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,600
of OK.
We're such a free for all

1178
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,760
industry though, like the we're
home boys and again, everyone

1179
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,520
home boys, everyone wants
regulation and wants some rules

1180
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,200
mandated and stuff like that.
But then everyone doesn't when

1181
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,320
it comes right down to it, it's
like leave me alone.

1182
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,480
I know what I'm doing here.
And so like if someone was to

1183
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,640
come in and say, you know, you
need a hang point for every X

1184
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:26,600
feet of Truss, you need this for
every six moving lights, you

1185
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,880
need a this for every 100 feet
of cable, you know, like all of

1186
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,080
these regulations.
And then an inspector is

1187
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,200
actually checking those things
off.

1188
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,080
You know, I think that is a
totally different thing.

1189
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,400
And we're not going to get from
here to there in one step.

1190
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,360
But I think again ESA, I'm very
supportive of the stuff that

1191
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,800
that they're doing over there.
Well, the.

1192
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,440
ETCP certifications have come
out and a lot of venues are

1193
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,000
starting to take on those and
take them very seriously, which

1194
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:58,520
is great.
Yeah, yeah.

1195
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,920
I think some of that training
has happened in the rigging side

1196
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,160
of things because that's
something that really effects

1197
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,440
people lives.
But a lot of this stuff is

1198
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,720
happening through volunteers.
You know, the, the, they're the

1199
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,000
ESA are volunteers.
They're all volunteering their

1200
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:13,480
time.
I think they may have hired one

1201
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,960
employee now, like a office
manager type, but they're all

1202
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,880
volunteers.
All of the main people are

1203
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,960
volunteers.
You know, some of these things

1204
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,120
are pretty heavy lifts.
Like sometimes you got to lobby

1205
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,960
the government to to regulate
this or whatever.

1206
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,760
You got to go to insurance
companies and say, will you give

1207
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,560
them a lower insurance rate if
they can prove that they've done

1208
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,360
all of these safety things.
And so now there's an incentive.

1209
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,240
Again, everybody does things
based on incentive, right?

1210
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:44,120
And so, yeah, I mean, something
has to give because, you know,

1211
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,120
people have died in our industry
is a problem.

1212
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,320
You know, we have a staffing
problem in our industry right

1213
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,520
now.
And, and so that training thing

1214
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:56,240
is going to become a bigger and
bigger issue.

1215
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,280
And everyone I talk to every
single week on this podcast says

1216
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,480
it's an issue.
But again, I, I, I just think it

1217
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,640
needs to start with some, some
rules and some incentives.

1218
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:10,040
And until we get there, we're
going to stay right where we're

1219
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,560
at right now, or until lots and
lots of people get hurt or die

1220
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,520
or something.
And then it becomes a forced

1221
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:18,000
issue.
And then the government's gonna

1222
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,320
make the decisions.
And now get wait until you see

1223
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,720
some of those rules.
You know, it's like what you

1224
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,200
want me to do what?
Like I've been doing shows for

1225
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:26,960
50 years.
I could never do that.

1226
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:28,320
You know, that kind of stuff's
coming.

1227
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:33,680
But so you know, the other thing
is like at the same time that

1228
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,280
you've got all of these problems
over here and people wanting

1229
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:40,080
like I'm sure you have all kinds
of wage problems and stuff where

1230
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:45,440
guys who used to be a $300.00 a
day rate are now asking for 600

1231
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:46,920
or more.
Absolutely.

1232
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,400
And that's something else
that's.

1233
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,280
So inflation is obviously a huge
problem, yeah, across the

1234
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,480
industry.
And coming out of the pandemic

1235
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:01,440
there was like, you know what,
2021 inflation jumped 8%, which

1236
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,760
was massive.
And yeah, we, we went through

1237
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,400
some of that.
But I think we're just only now

1238
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:12,480
seeing that inflation set in
where we're, we're looking at

1239
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:17,120
massive increases just this year
alone in our insurances doubled,

1240
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:23,680
Yeah, our building rent, our
triple Nets have doubled or not.

1241
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,480
I think our triple Nets are up
like over 100%.

1242
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,280
Jesus Christ.
And we were, we were locked in

1243
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,200
at a pretty low rate.
But the the triple Nets gone

1244
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:35,480
through the roof.
And part of that is just

1245
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:36,720
building maintenance has gone
up.

1246
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,360
So the garage door breaks.
I don't know why I'm paying for

1247
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,480
a garage door to get fixed on a
building I don't own, but that's

1248
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:44,760
how commercial real estate
works.

1249
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,560
So here we are.
Yeah, truck costs have gone up,

1250
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:51,320
rentals costs have gone up.
Everything across the board has

1251
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:53,200
gone up.
Even just like grocery store

1252
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:56,360
food has gone up, the cost of
living has gone up, the cost of

1253
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,400
the cup of coffee has gone
through the roof.

1254
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:00,960
Yeah, every single one of our
clients goes.

1255
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,800
You know what?
Let's do the same budget we did

1256
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,200
in 2019.
I know, isn't that crazy?

1257
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:08,480
So our our industry is kind of
in that weird rut where we've

1258
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,080
been so used to appeasing our
clients.

1259
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,440
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can
make that happen.

1260
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,400
So even now, we've gotten to a
point where we're going, OK, we,

1261
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:19,160
we need to make more money
somehow.

1262
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,920
Like we cannot do the same show
that we did in 2019 for the same

1263
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,040
amount of money.
So your budget was $30,000 back

1264
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:28,800
then.
We cannot do that same show for

1265
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,200
$30,000.
And the answer is, well, cut

1266
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,880
some gear.
Yeah.

1267
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,480
So, yeah, we're not really
making any more money.

1268
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,040
You still have these shows that
you still have these clients who

1269
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:40,960
call out.
The gears in my shop instead of

1270
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,080
on the rig, you know right?
It's not like, right?

1271
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:44,400
Yeah.
And then you still have these

1272
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,120
clients who call in and they're
like mystified that they can't

1273
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,400
get front lights and a couple up
lights for their little tiny gig

1274
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,360
for over under $1000.
Yeah.

1275
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,480
And it's just it's, I think
we're going to see some huge

1276
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,280
shifting in the industry.
And I think a lot of the big

1277
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,640
guys are in a lot of trouble,
and I don't think they're

1278
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,040
admitting it because I think a
lot of them are really

1279
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,400
overextended on their credit.
And I think we're seeing that.

1280
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,680
And we're seeing that in weird
places, like certain companies

1281
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,359
coming in to do installs and
just not charging for labor

1282
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,120
because they're trying to
increase the bottom line to make

1283
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,200
this look better.
So when the venture capitalist

1284
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:24,000
comes to buy them out, or the
next venture capitalist comes to

1285
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:25,680
rebuy them, they look better on
paper.

1286
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,080
That's starting to bite some of
these companies in the ass

1287
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,200
though, because the private
equity companies are pretty

1288
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:36,760
smart at looking through your
financials and doing.

1289
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,359
Buying each other out from each
other you've got.

1290
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:41,960
And they do these things by.
Private equity firms who are

1291
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,359
getting bought by companies were
owned by private equity firms.

1292
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,000
And they do these quality of
earnings reports that sometimes

1293
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,040
take weeks or months, where
they're really just looking at

1294
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:57,040
every nickel that is spent and
verifying all of that

1295
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,160
information, like how are you
making your money?

1296
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,200
How are you paying for it?
What are you paying?

1297
01:09:01,359 --> 01:09:04,479
What is the actual profit
margin, not just the one that's

1298
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:07,160
stated or whatever, But you're
right.

1299
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,920
I mean, it's almost like a three
headed monster that you're

1300
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,439
talking about.
Like poorly trained but

1301
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:18,439
overpriced labor is number one.
It's. #2 It's not even I'll go.

1302
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,720
I'll let you fast number.
Two, being the customer doesn't

1303
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,319
want to pay any more than they
did when costs were half as

1304
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:28,319
much.
And #3 there are competitors,

1305
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:31,439
some of them very large, who
will still do it for that money

1306
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,359
because they need to buff up
their their top line sales

1307
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:39,560
number, even at the expense of
losing money in some cases.

1308
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,279
Absolutely.
It's especially here in Seattle

1309
01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:45,560
where the rent cost and the cost
of living is risen so high.

1310
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:49,680
Paying 25 to $30.00 an hour for
a shop labor is.

1311
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:53,040
I mean, that's barely, it's,
it's almost poverty.

1312
01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:56,200
People are like, oh, you're
crazy, $15 hour in minimum wage,

1313
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:00,040
but you can't fucking live on
$15.00 an hour in this city or

1314
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,480
in the suburbs of this city or
anywhere near this city.

1315
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,720
And the, that's not a US
industry problem.

1316
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:09,720
That's a, that's an overall
industry problem.

1317
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,200
But for us, it's pushed our
bottom line higher and higher.

1318
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,720
So we went through two years
post pandemic of massive growth

1319
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,240
and the past year has literally
been stagnant of we we don't

1320
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:25,200
have enough money to grow
because we're we're just we're

1321
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:28,240
break even, we're break even.
And every time we're like, Nope,

1322
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,000
Nope, we're still break even at
it.

1323
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,280
Yeah, we've just seen a company
here fold.

1324
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:34,080
It.
Really.

1325
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,080
Yeah.
We, we lost a well, I, I don't

1326
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,120
know.
They, they say they're not dead,

1327
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:40,880
but we all are pretty sure
they're dead.

1328
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:44,440
Yeah.
A long, long time company up

1329
01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:46,160
here.
I won't make names.

1330
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:50,680
Yeah, no, but they we just
recently we.

1331
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,160
Went to go pick up a sub rental
from them and they found a note

1332
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:57,360
on the door that said closed due
to burlary and upon further

1333
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,440
investigation it turns out that
they haven't paid their rent in

1334
01:11:00,440 --> 01:11:02,440
quite a while.
When it wasn't a burglary, it

1335
01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:06,440
was the sheriff and they're.
Burglarizing the landlord.

1336
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,320
Yeah, the landlord's changed
locks on the door, so you know

1337
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:12,280
they're there.
There might be an auction

1338
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,560
sometime, although they've
announced they're reopening in

1339
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,440
September, so yeah.
Well, let's, let's hope they do.

1340
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:20,560
Let's hope they do.
You know they do.

1341
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:24,200
I mean, I'm seeing the same
thing like we saw obviously the

1342
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,800
same thing you saw in 2020.
A lot of companies didn't

1343
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:31,080
survive and then everyone went
batshit crazy for a couple years

1344
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:34,880
and then, you know, the 4th head
of that three headed monster is

1345
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,080
debt.
You know, so many companies took

1346
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,840
on so much debt, especially in
2020.

1347
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:44,480
And you know, it was easy to get
the government was was Co

1348
01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:47,000
signing for you basically
through the SBA.

1349
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:51,920
So you were able to take these
EIDL loans and and other loans

1350
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,160
and there was so much money
flying around I.

1351
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,880
Really regret not taking a
bigger EIDL loan and parking

1352
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,720
$1,000,000 of that into a high
interest savings account.

1353
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,400
No kidding.
You're interested behind.

1354
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:06,680
I would have been 2% a month.
It's crazy, isn't it?

1355
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:08,280
It is crazy.
It's crazy.

1356
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,080
You could have done that.
That's totally true.

1357
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,240
I never even thought of it that
way, but it's true.

1358
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:13,320
It's.
Nuts.

1359
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:19,080
I think you sell gear, you sell
used gear.

1360
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,280
How's your sales doing first
quarter?

1361
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:26,640
Actually right now quite good
first quarter, I believe first

1362
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,880
quarter was bad, but we had
different reasons.

1363
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,400
We had different reasons.
So Gear Source went through our

1364
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,240
own pain that's totally
different than everybody else's.

1365
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:41,200
I will tell you, I will tell you
our company though, we don't

1366
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,480
follow the industry trends
because remember that it's a

1367
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:46,760
supply and demand business that
I'm in.

1368
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:51,760
And so when COVID, we had huge
supply, no demand, very little

1369
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:53,840
demand, the demand that we did
have.

1370
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:58,040
So we still did probably 35% of
our normal revenue during COVID,

1371
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:02,040
during 2020, I should say.
And that was because you had

1372
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,160
opportunists who had cash and
then we had companies,

1373
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:09,880
especially in Asia who were just
dying and, and, you know, needed

1374
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,640
to just pay their home rent and
stuff like that.

1375
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:14,600
So they were selling gear on the
cheap.

1376
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,160
And, you know, we were creating
these deals.

1377
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:21,480
We sold a, a sound company from
Chile to a, a sound company in

1378
01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:25,240
Canada and they just had some
warehousing available and it was

1379
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,000
unbelievable inventory.
And they said, Yep, we'll take

1380
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,320
it all.
And we sold just all the audio

1381
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,200
consoles and some amp racks and
stuff.

1382
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:36,360
And it paid for everything that
they, you know, they've got a

1383
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,400
large, I think it's DNB or L
acoustics, I can't remember.

1384
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,800
So they ended up with all this
stuff as their profit on the

1385
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:47,200
deal basically.
And so, you know, we're, we're

1386
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,880
always like when the industry
goes batshit crazy like it did

1387
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:55,840
in 2021, mid 21 to 22, there's
no gear available.

1388
01:13:55,960 --> 01:14:00,000
So now supply is really bad, but
demand is extremely high.

1389
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:03,440
And so we're running around
trying to find sellers who are

1390
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:07,280
willing to get rid of stuff.
And then we'll get to where

1391
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,600
we've got loads of supply.
And now the demand's gone

1392
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,000
because everyone got slow again.
I remember the calls.

1393
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:14,680
Yeah.
I had Brad calling me like every

1394
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:15,480
other week.
Hey, man.

1395
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:16,560
Yeah.
You got a, you got a.

1396
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,040
Points right.
Yeah, Did you?

1397
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:20,160
Sell some mega points.
I was like, no, no I won't.

1398
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:22,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, you should have.

1399
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:24,960
You could have got friggin high
prices.

1400
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:28,200
You know what, Watching some of
the used prices too was just

1401
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:33,520
crazy because like MA twos in
2020, we're selling for MA2 full

1402
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,560
size.
We're selling between 12 and

1403
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:43,360
$15,000 by, call it, 23.
Early 23 MA twos were selling

1404
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:46,040
for $35,000.
Yeah.

1405
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:49,080
Go figure.
Just crazy.

1406
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,840
Three times as much over yet and
so many people are just not

1407
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,840
happy with where the three is at
development wise and I.

1408
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,800
Don't or they couldn't get.
Them cuz I mean, I was around

1409
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:02,360
from the switch from 1:00 to
2:00 yeah and it took a lot of

1410
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,880
time to make that switch and it
took a lot of time and they need

1411
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:09,600
real world situations like you
can't debug the software sitting

1412
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,040
in the shop like you have to
have that console out in the

1413
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:13,920
show.
Well, yeah, they got hit by some

1414
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,360
really bad timing because they
launched it right.

1415
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:17,800
But.
It is a terrible time to try to

1416
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:20,640
proof a console or proof Oh
yeah, why you're in real world

1417
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,240
situations, Because there aren't
any real world situations.

1418
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:26,520
But the other thing is they ran
into supply problems, you know,

1419
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,040
because the same problems, the
factories are closed due to

1420
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,960
COVID or whatever, like so you
know.

1421
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,880
Everyone's had that.
Like even right now in MA three

1422
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,320
you could.
Block down some of their

1423
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,320
component sales.
So for instance, companies in

1424
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,840
China who are selling like a
capacitor, right, like you have,

1425
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,600
there are some some companies in
this industry who still make

1426
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,160
their own product in their own
countries of origin.

1427
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,080
They're not making everything.
And nobody's gonna like open a

1428
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:57,400
capacitor factory when you could
just buy them.

1429
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,760
Yeah, but there are certain
companies that had a lot of

1430
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,880
problems with specifically
capacitors because their mains

1431
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:07,240
capacitor supplier wasn't
allowed to sell X amount outside

1432
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:08,840
of the country.
Yeah, they were taking care of

1433
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,080
their own.
Supply was limited, so they went

1434
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,080
to third party capacitor
suppliers and those have all

1435
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,480
been popping.
And there's a there's a certain

1436
01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:20,200
product line that we've had a
lot of issues with, specifically

1437
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,760
a capacitor on the Control Board
of this one product or this one

1438
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,280
product line.
And it's been a nightmare for

1439
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:28,040
them.
It's been a nightmare for us.

1440
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:31,280
And it's yeah, it's trouble.
And that that has continued to

1441
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:34,360
progress down the chain.
That's these little remnants

1442
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:37,800
leftover from COVID where, you
know, it's a few things that

1443
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,240
were purchased during the COVID
times have got they're plagued

1444
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,040
with issues because of little
things like that.

1445
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,120
It's not the products bad.
It's just, it's, it's you.

1446
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:52,040
You have a a beautifully
designed $20,000 fixture that's

1447
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,480
Immaculate and the passer goes
bad.

1448
01:16:54,480 --> 01:16:56,360
The thing's a fucking piece of
it's a brick.

1449
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,680
Yeah, it's useless, completely
useless.

1450
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,520
Now I've been through that like
a, you know, again, I've had a

1451
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:06,240
long moving like career prior to
my used gear career and I

1452
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,600
remember I can't remember if it
was Martin or high end.

1453
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,120
One of them switched their
stepper motors in their in their

1454
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,640
moving mirror fixtures and they
switched to a Chinese supplier

1455
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:18,720
and there was something
happening, I think when they

1456
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:23,400
were heated up inside a fixture,
the lubrication was, was

1457
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,120
basically leaking outside of the
motor or whatever and they were

1458
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:29,120
seizing up.
These motors were seizing up and

1459
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:32,800
I mean, it was a frigging
nightmare and it took a while to

1460
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,640
fix it too, so you were just
sending out boxes of motors.

1461
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:37,080
To be screws in the back of the
motor.

1462
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,920
You pull the spool out, you take
some gaff tape inside out around

1463
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:42,200
your finger, you wrap it around
the coil, you put it back

1464
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:43,680
together and there's a 5050
shot.

1465
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,520
It works again.
That's something you know, I

1466
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,120
don't.
I just sell them a new motor.

1467
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,960
Yeah, but so I mean and the
other thing about like you were

1468
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,840
talking about the inflation
costs, some of it is a false

1469
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,600
inflation cost.
Like some of it is just is just

1470
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:00,000
people saying, hey, I can get
away with charging more, so I'm

1471
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,720
going to charge more, right.
But.

1472
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,520
Here in our industry, God, try
that and you're fucked yeah, I

1473
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,880
mean, we we we all do to a
certain a certain point, right.

1474
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:15,320
We're all going, oh, but I would
argue that we're maybe when

1475
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:18,640
we're gouging the bigger
companies, I think we're

1476
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:20,280
actually getting our fair market
value.

1477
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,200
Yeah, I think for the.
First time in a long time and.

1478
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:26,800
No, I agree with you.
There's been there's been a

1479
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,120
significant downturn in one off
rock shows.

1480
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:33,840
Touring is has been down.
You've seen all those like arena

1481
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:35,880
tours canceled because really
they should have been only a

1482
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,800
theater tour or or a large
theater tour in the first place.

1483
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,800
Or Black Keys?
And who was the other big one?

1484
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,160
Beyoncé.
Did Beyoncé drop a No, that's

1485
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:47,360
not.
Right, No Jlo Jlo J.

1486
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:49,400
Lo right, so like, you know.
That was the same time for a

1487
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:51,800
shitty ticket.
On stadiums, yeah.

1488
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:53,960
Some of these people shouldn't
have been doing a stadium tour

1489
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:55,160
in the first place.
I agree.

1490
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:56,600
I've been saying that for two
years.

1491
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:01,320
It goes down on the chain.
So we saw a significant downturn

1492
01:19:01,480 --> 01:19:06,200
in Q1Q2 of one off rock shows of
just people who'd cancelled

1493
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:07,640
their tours.
Yeah.

1494
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,840
And right now we're seeing
festivals that are not selling

1495
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:12,240
well.
Like.

1496
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,680
Festivals are in trouble again.
There was that whole festival

1497
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:20,440
bubble thing back in 2017.
And yeah, this is different.

1498
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,640
This is not, I don't know if
it's a bubble or if it's just

1499
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:26,160
the people don't want to go to a
festival anymore.

1500
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:28,640
You know, it's hard to say.
I was talking to a very good

1501
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:32,200
friend of mine who's an account
exec for a very large concert

1502
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,680
touring company, and he said to
me that the last six months were

1503
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,760
the toughest 6 months he can
ever remember in his career.

1504
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:44,480
Yeah, and the next 18 months,
he's got the biggest pipeline

1505
01:19:44,480 --> 01:19:49,760
he's ever had in his career.
So he said it's a fucking weird

1506
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:52,320
market right now.
Like I can't figure it out.

1507
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:54,440
Like are.
We good, Are we bad?

1508
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:55,840
Are we good?
Are we bad?

1509
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:57,280
You know what's going on right
now.

1510
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:59,000
It's got to pick up and it's so
it's.

1511
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:03,400
I I would say almost genre
driven like I've seen EDM shows

1512
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:07,960
flop which didn't happen for a
long time but but if anyone is

1513
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:11,160
doing well right now it is like
the Insomniac and the EDM

1514
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:12,720
concerts and shows that are
done.

1515
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,160
Very well, but that's the only.
Thing everything else is we're

1516
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:18,880
watching alt rock bands they
can't even sell out in their own

1517
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:20,920
hometown.
Really.

1518
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:25,520
And one offs and festivals.
Like none of there's not a

1519
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,280
single festival we're doing
that's not EDM driven that has

1520
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:33,000
sold out this year.
But so The thing is when you

1521
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,280
talk to anyone from Live Nation,
they say you're full of shit,

1522
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:41,280
like the capacity is massive for
more ticket sales, not less,

1523
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:45,840
more ticket sales, you know, and
the way they say it, the way

1524
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:47,960
they explain it, you.
Want to name too many names?

1525
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:52,800
But ask Ask a certain division
of Live Nation that focuses on

1526
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,480
country music.
Yeah, ask.

1527
01:20:55,480 --> 01:20:58,240
Them how they're doing and the
answer is not that great.

1528
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:02,280
Yeah, Yeah, it's an interesting,
it's an interesting time right

1529
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:03,400
now.
You know, I've been trying to

1530
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,360
figure it out.
I used to, I used to hang my hat

1531
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,160
on the fact that I knew what was
going on in the industry and I

1532
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,360
could predict really well and I
could predict my own revenue

1533
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:13,960
really well and all of that
stuff.

1534
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:16,680
Now I haven't got.
A fucking clue I.

1535
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,640
Haven't got a clue what's going
to happen next year.

1536
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:22,040
I don't know.
I I half of mind, I mean, you

1537
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:23,760
know, you want to buy a company
and sell it to someone in

1538
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:25,760
Canada.
Yeah, I might be open to that

1539
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:28,440
next week or like shit, a month
from now.

1540
01:21:28,440 --> 01:21:28,840
It might.
Or.

1541
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:31,080
Expanding open a Portland
office.

1542
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:34,280
I can't.
Can't make up my mind and the

1543
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:36,880
industry can't make up its mind
and we're all stuck.

1544
01:21:37,440 --> 01:21:38,680
No.
And you know, I've been saying

1545
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:40,960
some of this stuff for a long
time and I think some people

1546
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,280
just roll their eyes and don't
listen And, and I think

1547
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:45,160
sometimes I've been right,
sometimes I've been really

1548
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:48,600
wrong.
But the like my biggest one that

1549
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:52,120
I constantly pick on is Mötley
Crüe doing a stadium tour.

1550
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:55,120
You know, that was shocking to
me.

1551
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,680
You know, first of all the bands
long retired.

1552
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:02,160
Secondly, they were hardly
selling out sheds and and arenas

1553
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:05,760
like not even selling them out
in their final tour before they

1554
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,680
retired.
And you know, the singer Can't

1555
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,840
Sing, the guitar player can
hardly stand up, which they've

1556
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:16,480
since replaced him.
And you know, who's paying 450

1557
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:21,080
bucks for a ticket in a stadium
to see an old washed up 80s band

1558
01:22:21,080 --> 01:22:23,120
right now?
Like, I mean we, I don't get it.

1559
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:25,640
We have a solution for that,
it's called a casino.

1560
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,200
Yeah, you're right.
That's where the facts belong.

1561
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,320
Yeah, that's where Tesla and The
Cult and all of those kinds of

1562
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:35,920
bands are playing in casinos and
it's great.

1563
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,560
Like when I feel like going and
seeing Loverboy, I know I can go

1564
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:40,160
to the casino and go see
Loverboy.

1565
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:45,200
It's fun, you know, but and some
of the packages are cool too.

1566
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,520
You know, it's like sticks and
Journey and and REO Speedwagon.

1567
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,080
They've been making a killing
like little tiny bites at a

1568
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:55,000
time, you know?
I've heard some of those rehash

1569
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:58,280
festivals have done pretty well.
Oh really?

1570
01:22:58,440 --> 01:22:59,640
That's.
Something that I've heard has

1571
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,840
sold like the and not not that
far back like like the 90's rock

1572
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:05,520
type of stuff.
Like the green?

1573
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:10,120
Days and the Blink 182's and all
those bands and I've heard that

1574
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:13,000
some of those, what kind of
festival things have sold?

1575
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:16,400
All yeah, festivals are another
one that I, I can't quite figure

1576
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:18,480
out.
By the way, a little bit of

1577
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:21,560
trivia that I learned, I don't
know, a few months ago or

1578
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:24,520
something.
Guess how many festivals there

1579
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:30,240
are annually in the Netherlands.
Netherlands is, I think it's

1580
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:33,120
15,000,000 people in the
Netherlands it's not a lot of

1581
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:33,560
people.
I.

1582
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:36,960
Don't know, I've never looked it
up.

1583
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:39,880
So Netherlands, you know, they
have a winter I guess.

1584
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:42,760
So it's you're talking about a
summer festival season that

1585
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:46,240
could go maybe from what, April
to September or something?

1586
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,520
Yeah, I mean, ours is pretty
much locked from.

1587
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:52,760
Tiny little country, tiny little
country, you know, 15,000,000

1588
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:54,760
people or whatever.
Maybe 17,000,000.

1589
01:23:55,040 --> 01:24:04,640
How many festivals?
Just give me a number. 24. 14114

1590
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:08,720
hundred festivals in the
Netherlands each year right now,

1591
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,000
you can look it up.
But are they, are they, I mean,

1592
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,400
when you say festival, what do
you mean?

1593
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,440
Because we, we have locally,
we've got some big festivals and

1594
01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:20,280
then we've got some medium
festivals and we've got like the

1595
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:22,920
all of them block parties.
And then we've got like

1596
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:26,040
Ballard's Whalen days where it's
like a guy who's like a

1597
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,080
lumberjack that chops wood
sculptures.

1598
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:33,720
And so there's a guy called Sax
Squatch, and he wears a

1599
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,680
Sasquatch suit and plays the
saxophone and it's a.

1600
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:40,120
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Yeah, right.

1601
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:41,880
But that's that's the big
entertainment, right.

1602
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:44,120
So when you say festival like,
you know what?

1603
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:47,160
What does that entail?
I don't honestly know the answer

1604
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,640
to that.
I believe it's music festival so

1605
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,680
if that even narrows it down.
Even that, like saxophone, it

1606
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:54,320
could be playing at a music
festival.

1607
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:57,920
But he's not on the same stage
that Sophie Tucker's plan.

1608
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,920
He's not on the same stage as
Odessa.

1609
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,360
Yeah, I can't answer that.
I just know that the number of

1610
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,120
festivals annually in the
Netherlands is 1400 and it blew

1611
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:11,840
my mind and it might even be
higher than that now with this

1612
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,080
batshit crazy last couple of
years we've had.

1613
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:16,520
So that's where.
Footage wise, I mean.

1614
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:20,240
I don't know what the
Netherlands pans out to in terms

1615
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:22,560
of I'm thinking about.
Just Washington state, right?

1616
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:26,600
Probably Washington state size.
It might be a little bigger than

1617
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,240
Washington state.
I would guess that if we did all

1618
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:32,680
of the little town festivals and
town carnivals with music acts

1619
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:35,760
on them, I would guess that
Washington state is, I would say

1620
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,080
easily 10,000.
There's probably 10,000

1621
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,200
festivals here.
No way there can't.

1622
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:44,600
Be little teeny weeny little
silly things and whatnot.

1623
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,440
Look it up and let's we'll talk
about it later.

1624
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:51,000
Anyways, I thought that was an
incredible number and but the

1625
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:52,960
other thing about Netherlands
is.

1626
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:55,960
What are they?
Not a lot of bands tour through

1627
01:25:55,960 --> 01:26:01,920
the Netherlands, so it's a much
more festival place and and so

1628
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:05,000
it's again, it's a little bit of
an inflated number because of

1629
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:07,600
that, but they're they're party
people.

1630
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:09,840
They love going to music
festivals in the Netherlands,

1631
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:11,880
like most of Europe, but.
Netherlands.

1632
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,960
Especially they love, they love
a good festival in the

1633
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:17,440
Netherlands.
Yeah, the disposable income is

1634
01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:20,480
another funny one.
You know, it's like Mexicans are

1635
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:23,480
in Mexico.
Are are they hardly earn any

1636
01:26:23,480 --> 01:26:25,160
money.
They're practically starving to

1637
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:29,560
death, yet you know, The Rolling
Stones come and and they'll buy

1638
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:33,280
125,000 tickets.
You know, it's just incredible

1639
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,240
to me.
Or Beyoncé or whoever is there,

1640
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,240
you know, like if Taylor Swift
went there, I guarantee she

1641
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:44,560
could play 150,000 tickets, you
know, and it's just incredible

1642
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:45,440
to me.
But that's cool.

1643
01:26:45,440 --> 01:26:48,520
Like the, the good news for all
of us is that no matter how bad

1644
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:51,440
the economy gets, somebody will
usually find money to buy a

1645
01:26:51,440 --> 01:26:54,040
concert ticket or to go to a
nightclub or something.

1646
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:56,040
And that keeps you working, sort
of.

1647
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:58,160
That's the hope.
I don't know.

1648
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,200
I the the cost of every of
producing everything, like I

1649
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:05,120
said, it just keeps going up and
yeah, none of the budgets are

1650
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:08,480
rising.
So when you when when your

1651
01:27:08,480 --> 01:27:14,520
annual revenue is $5 million, it
sounds great until your annual

1652
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:19,280
expenditures become $6 million.
Yeah, that's not good math.

1653
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:21,560
Yeah, at which?
Point, it doesn't balance out

1654
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:24,640
and then your business collapses
and there you are so.

1655
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:26,840
Yeah.
Well, and unfortunately, again,

1656
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:31,160
like you mentioned the D word
debt and again, we didn't go too

1657
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:34,320
far into that, but I know a lot
of companies who took more money

1658
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:36,600
than they should have taken in
in 2020.

1659
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:39,200
And you know, they looked really
smart.

1660
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:42,800
They had gear when nobody else
had gear and you know, they had

1661
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,000
more people than other people
did or whatever.

1662
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,840
But now they're not looking so
smart.

1663
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:50,560
And and you know, when those
payments started coming due,

1664
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,680
they didn't look so smart.
And I know I even people who

1665
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:57,080
said, oh, it's a 15 year
mortgage, you know, it's easy.

1666
01:27:57,080 --> 01:27:59,240
I got no problem.
It's only 10 grand a month.

1667
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,960
I can pay that, you know, but
it's like a, you know, it's like

1668
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:05,800
paper cuts.
They add up after a while.

1669
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:09,280
You know, that's 10,000 a month
when you're also your rent went

1670
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:12,800
up and your employee costs went
up and your healthcare costs

1671
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:14,120
went up and everything else went
up.

1672
01:28:14,440 --> 01:28:16,040
Yeah, it's harsh.
Yeah.

1673
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,680
I mean, I've certainly, we've
certainly got some debt.

1674
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,400
Yeah, I mentioned the Eid alone,
that's a very manageable debt.

1675
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:27,200
We've got a couple of other
loans out, but I, I think our

1676
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:31,960
bigger problem cash flow wise
has been installations where

1677
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:36,560
we'll work with these arenas and
we'll do an installation.

1678
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:40,880
So there's a certain arena we
put some stuff into.

1679
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:42,840
We had a little bit of problems
with the gear.

1680
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:45,560
Not our problem.
It was a manufacturer error.

1681
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,120
It's now six months later and
I'm still sitting on 50 grand

1682
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:51,680
that I'm basically loaning a
major sports organization

1683
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:54,880
because the installation is not
done because the manufacturer

1684
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,680
has been slow at fixing the
problem that they created.

1685
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,760
And so we can't get paid until.
So I'm sitting on that's

1686
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:05,040
terrible, 50 grand out and then,
you know, here's another,

1687
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:08,720
another organization would
really like us to come in and do

1688
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:11,640
a lot of repairs.
We need to buy about 10 grand

1689
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:15,080
worth of parts to do that.
If I buy that 10 grand worth of

1690
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:17,960
parts now.
Our 60 grand, it's going.

1691
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:20,720
To be 90 days before I see that
back and then I'm going to be

1692
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:23,400
out the labor as well because
I'm going to pay my guys in two

1693
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:25,520
weeks that that's when they're
going to get paid.

1694
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:29,000
We're going to bill.
It's going to be, you know, a

1695
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:31,440
$20,000 bill.
It's going to be 90 days before

1696
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:34,400
I see that money.
And so I'm just like, I'm become

1697
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:38,440
the bank, I'm loaning out the
money and I'm like, on paper, if

1698
01:29:38,440 --> 01:29:43,360
I do the math, we're OK.
But in the short term I'm kind

1699
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:46,640
of like, shit, we can't take
that job on because I can't sink

1700
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,920
$20,000 into their bullshit.
I get 90 days to get paid.

1701
01:29:50,480 --> 01:29:52,520
I get it.
And that's something that our

1702
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:55,080
industry has also been really
bad at is like, oh, yeah, we'll

1703
01:29:55,080 --> 01:29:57,080
just, yeah, OK.
And every time you sign one of

1704
01:29:57,080 --> 01:30:00,600
these deals with like you're a
preferred vendor for some major,

1705
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,120
major company, that always comes
with the strings of, oh, we pay

1706
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:06,240
90 days and that's considered
early.

1707
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:08,160
So we gave ourselves a 3%
discount.

1708
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:09,280
Even Disney.
The fuck?

1709
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:12,720
I remember Disney and Royal
Caribbean when I was selling

1710
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,400
direct to these companies in
South Florida or whatever it

1711
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:18,080
was.
Like, what do you mean 180 days?

1712
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:19,720
Like you're freaking Disney
right?

1713
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:22,760
Pay me.
Yeah, pay me self for concert

1714
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:24,880
ticket or for park admission
tickets.

1715
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:28,200
And pay me name names.
But do you know what happens

1716
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:31,240
when I don't pay my cell phone
bill at T-Mobile on time?

1717
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,160
Of course I have to pay.
That at the end of the month

1718
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:35,800
that they shut my cell phone
bill off.

1719
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:38,040
Yeah, yeah.
And then when?

1720
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:41,240
Those roles are reversed.
Yeah, isn't that incredible?

1721
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:45,440
It's a different story.
Isn't it amazing, fun and such a

1722
01:30:45,440 --> 01:30:51,680
sexy thing to be a business guy?
It's company ownership, great.

1723
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:56,280
You know, Oh my God, I yeah, I
get a lot of people who are

1724
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:58,320
like, oh, you're so lucky.
Yeah, you own the company and

1725
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:00,720
Hawaii.
No, like I haven't slept in a

1726
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,200
fucking week.
Like I I'm I'm nervous about

1727
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:04,560
this.
I'm nervous about that.

1728
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:06,680
And then you asked me to drove a
truck into a semi.

1729
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:10,640
Shit.
You're exactly right, I posted

1730
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:13,280
something this week and I I'm
trying to find it right now

1731
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,840
because I can't remember exactly
how I said it was.

1732
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:17,960
It live the American dream, they
said.

1733
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:21,640
Be your own boss, they said.
Set your own hours, they said.

1734
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,440
Own your own business, they
said.

1735
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,280
Something like that.
It was something like that, but

1736
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:29,280
it was basically God, I got to
find it, I'll find it and I'll

1737
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:31,280
send it to you or something.
But it was something like, you

1738
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:34,960
know, owning a business is like,
you know, jumping out of an

1739
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,000
airplane and trying to build a
parachute on the way down.

1740
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:40,360
You know that kind of.
Thing, yeah, it's, it's trying

1741
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:42,120
to build a build a airplane on
the way down.

1742
01:31:42,480 --> 01:31:43,920
Yeah, Yeah.
That's what it is.

1743
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:47,960
Yeah, so, but it's true.
I mean, it's it's so exactly.

1744
01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:50,720
True and Lego animated movie.
And you happen to be a master

1745
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:51,840
builder?
No problem.

1746
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:55,240
Yeah, yeah.
Or if you're, or if you're

1747
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:58,360
Zuckerberg and the very first
time you ever try and do a

1748
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:03,040
business, it becomes worth a
trillion dollars, you know, out

1749
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:05,360
of high school or whatever, out
of college.

1750
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:09,280
But it doesn't usually go, It's
not usually quite that sexy.

1751
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:13,240
No, usually it really sucks for
a long time and then hopefully

1752
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:15,680
you can sell it and have enough
money to retire on.

1753
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:17,720
But sometimes that doesn't even
work out right.

1754
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:19,920
I mean.
That was that was the weird

1755
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:23,840
thing is I was getting to that
point in 2019 where I was like,

1756
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:27,280
man, couple more years like
this, we're smooth sailing,

1757
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:30,280
things are looking pretty good.
And then suddenly it all crashed

1758
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:33,360
and now, yeah, it almost feels
like having to rebuild.

1759
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:37,200
I won't even get into my story
because mine is much sadder than

1760
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:39,760
that.
But it's, you know, the last

1761
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:43,840
five or six years have have
tried to kill me and I survived

1762
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:45,240
and now I'm coming out the other
end.

1763
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,960
But I've still got to, you know,
I've still got to pay back the

1764
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:51,360
last five or six years, you
know, and it started with a, it

1765
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,960
started with a lawsuit against
Google, one of the largest

1766
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,360
companies in the world, who
decided you're going to sue us,

1767
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,040
We're going to pummel you into
the dirt.

1768
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:03,160
And they tried, they tried to
end my business.

1769
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,160
They tried to destroy me
completely.

1770
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:08,240
And I finally had to just tap
out and say, OK, I give up.

1771
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,160
You know, I'll sign a release
and let you guys off, even

1772
01:33:11,160 --> 01:33:14,160
though you stole my trademark.
And then, you know, going

1773
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:19,480
through divorce at the same time
and, and then, you know, in

1774
01:33:19,480 --> 01:33:23,440
2022, I had a a very, very
massive software failure that

1775
01:33:23,440 --> 01:33:26,120
almost put me out of business.
I mean, it literally almost put

1776
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:30,440
me out of business.
Cost me a couple $1,000,000 and,

1777
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,760
and just brutal, brutal, brutal,
brutal.

1778
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,920
So yeah, the last five or six
years I've had a very successful

1779
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:38,880
life.
Up until the last five or six

1780
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:41,200
years I've been brutal, really
rough.

1781
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:45,040
So yeah, I can go toe to toe
with anybody's sad stories right

1782
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:47,120
now, you know?
Five years ago, I bet you were

1783
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,640
like, you know, I may retire in
about 5 to six years.

1784
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:52,320
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I just turned 60 and I

1785
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:57,080
always saw myself not retired
but not really working, you

1786
01:33:57,080 --> 01:34:00,840
know, by the time I got to 60
and, you know, now I'm, I'm

1787
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,240
rebuilding and hoping for 65,
you know?

1788
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:07,760
So fortunately I love what I do
and I probably will never stop

1789
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:10,600
working anyways.
But to get to that point where

1790
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:14,440
you go, I've got loads of cash
in the bank and I don't really

1791
01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:17,560
have to do anything today.
Let's go for a walk, you know,

1792
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:19,960
or whatever, right?
Like that's where you want to

1793
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:21,760
get to.
That's that's all I'm looking

1794
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:22,480
for.
Not once you.

1795
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,680
Get to I yeah, man, I would love
to work for myself.

1796
01:34:26,440 --> 01:34:28,760
Yeah, I don't want to own the
company anymore, but I'd love to

1797
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:31,200
work for myself.
And that's, that's something

1798
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:34,960
where I like, you know, I think
honestly, I've been in a little

1799
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,520
bit of depression or funk the
last six months.

1800
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:40,720
And it was, yeah, I found myself
going, God, I fucking hate my

1801
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:41,760
job.
Yeah, I.

1802
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:42,400
Get it?
I.

1803
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,120
Hate this shit.
And yeah, it kind of took me.

1804
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:47,760
I had to go out and do
something.

1805
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,520
I had to like step out into the
field and build something cool.

1806
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:55,640
Yeah, that reminded you that.
It's actually pretty.

1807
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:59,120
And then I was like, Oh yeah, I
like what we do and who the

1808
01:34:59,160 --> 01:35:00,320
hell?
Well, I'll tell you this right

1809
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:03,600
now, and it's going to sound
cheesy as hell, but I'm a really

1810
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:09,600
good guy to bounce shit off of.
Ideas, problems, thoughts, you

1811
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,520
know, whatever.
I'm really good at that.

1812
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:14,600
And I'm I'm opening the door
anytime you need to, you need to

1813
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,240
just vent on somebody and say
here's what's going on right

1814
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:18,880
now.
Like, what do you think?

1815
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,880
You know, I'm great at solving
the world's problems.

1816
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:24,880
I'm just not very good at
solving my own, you know, is

1817
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,960
really what it comes down to.
I'm a great, I'm a great outside

1818
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,360
consultant, a terrible inside
consultant.

1819
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:34,200
So, but yeah, anytime, I mean,
if, if you think that I could

1820
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:36,800
help you through one of those
problems or something, reach

1821
01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:38,040
out.
And if I can't help you, I'll

1822
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:40,400
say I can't help you.
But most of the time I'll have

1823
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:43,680
an idea and I won't.
I won't even charge you

1824
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:46,720
anything, Joe.
OK, here's a.

1825
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:47,840
Conundrum.
That amazing.

1826
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:49,800
I'll give you a live one.
We'll put you on the spot.

1827
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:51,800
All right.
All right, here's the conundrum

1828
01:35:53,440 --> 01:35:58,280
company in town that's I'm not
going to say competition because

1829
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:01,880
they've been kind of a smaller
company goes appears to be going

1830
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:07,880
under their top sales guy is
potentially up for grabs.

1831
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:15,680
This top sales guy comes with a
couple of certifications that no

1832
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:20,080
one in your company possesses
that gives you an opening into a

1833
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:22,480
market you haven't really tapped
too much.

1834
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:27,560
You're also at a point where
your break even things haven't

1835
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:32,160
been going that smoothly.
So do you jump on this

1836
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:38,800
opportunity to bring this person
on board, make them an offer and

1837
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:43,960
use as an excuse to try to grow?
Would you step back, let it ride

1838
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:46,560
and ride it out until you're in
a better position?

1839
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:50,200
Just see what happens.
So it's a great question.

1840
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:51,680
Let me ask you a couple
questions.

1841
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:57,480
So first of all, is your concern
a ethical concern or a financial

1842
01:36:57,480 --> 01:36:58,200
concern?
Absolutely.

1843
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:00,320
Not a so it's it's a fight, it's
entirely fine.

1844
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:03,440
Ethical concerns aside, 100% go
for it.

1845
01:37:03,440 --> 01:37:08,240
Like I'm I'm a go forward at any
cost kind of guy.

1846
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:11,120
Like you have to if if you sit
still, you die.

1847
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:13,520
That's that's how my brain
thinks now.

1848
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:15,360
Make the gamble and see if it
pays off.

1849
01:37:15,440 --> 01:37:19,600
Make the gamble and, and make it
pay off, not see if it pays off

1850
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:22,040
set, set it up so that it's
gonna pay off.

1851
01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:25,480
And you know, if you I, I can do
it on the air here or we could

1852
01:37:25,480 --> 01:37:27,800
do it later off the air.
But I could give you some ideas

1853
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:30,760
on how to structure a deal where
you can't lose too.

1854
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:34,640
And, and I'm happy to share that
kind of stuff with you so.

1855
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:36,080
I've got, I've got plenty of
that.

1856
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:38,080
Yeah.
The question is, it's, it's a

1857
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:41,080
bigger esoteric one.
It's knowing what we've talked

1858
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:44,600
about today and knowing the the
risks involved and not knowing

1859
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:47,760
what the industry is doing right
now and not having that like

1860
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,400
gift of sight that we all
thought we had for the longest

1861
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:52,200
time.
Yeah, take the gamble.

1862
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:56,120
Yeah.
So again, 100% I would not even

1863
01:37:56,120 --> 01:38:01,120
95% or anything, 100% I would, I
would put some limits on it.

1864
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:04,080
So I would say I'm going to give
this three months or six months

1865
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:08,360
or whatever I think is a
reasonable point of of time down

1866
01:38:08,360 --> 01:38:10,360
the road.
So let's say I say it's six

1867
01:38:10,360 --> 01:38:12,880
months, and let's say the guy's
costing me 5 grand a month.

1868
01:38:13,200 --> 01:38:15,440
Nice round numbers.
So you know it's going to cost

1869
01:38:15,440 --> 01:38:18,800
me $30,000.
It's a $30,000 bet.

1870
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:22,120
How am I going to get 30 grand
back in six months?

1871
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:25,400
And if you think of it that way,
it's pretty friggin easy to get

1872
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:30,680
30 grand out of a person who's
got contacts and has a clue,

1873
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:33,240
unless you've misread the
person.

1874
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:37,960
If you can't increase your sales
by enough to cover 30 grand,

1875
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:40,360
then maybe it's not worth doing
it.

1876
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:44,880
But if if you look at it and you
go, hey, if I provide this guy

1877
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:50,280
with the tools he needs with,
you know, a phone and a desk and

1878
01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:53,280
whatever the things are that he
needs to be able to do his job.

1879
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:56,200
And I support the hell out of
him and I coach him a little bit

1880
01:38:56,400 --> 01:38:59,520
and, and, you know, take him out
for some dinners and stuff.

1881
01:39:00,280 --> 01:39:04,200
Is this guy capable of pulling
in 150 grand in profit in the

1882
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:08,000
next six months?
Do it, you know, absolutely do

1883
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:10,120
it.
But the first six months is what

1884
01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:12,960
I'd look at as I've got to at
least break even on this.

1885
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:16,600
I don't want this to impact to
to worsen my bottom line.

1886
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:20,520
I I want it to at least be even
on my bottom line.

1887
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,400
And then and again you can
structure a deal so that.

1888
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,360
The only ethical part for me is
do I bring someone on?

1889
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:31,480
I guess if you tell them up
front with this is a trial and

1890
01:39:31,480 --> 01:39:33,600
if we can't make it work after
six months, we're going to have

1891
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:39,200
to like think otherwise.
So again, I don't know if you

1892
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:42,120
want to do this on or off the
air, but like I would structure

1893
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,800
it slightly differently.
I might front load it a little

1894
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:47,720
bit and say, hey, I've got an
opportunity for you where if you

1895
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:51,080
can get to this in the first six
months, here's what we'll do.

1896
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:54,840
So I dangle a carrot.
So instead of instead of putting

1897
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:58,160
up a barrier and saying, hey,
you know, if you can't do this,

1898
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:01,680
so you're putting pressure on
him instead of incentive and and

1899
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:05,400
motivation on him.
So if I if I put motivation

1900
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:09,040
there and say reach this and
you'll make a lot of money or

1901
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:10,560
you'll have a really good
position.

1902
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:14,520
Instead of saying if you don't
reach, if you don't reach this,

1903
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:17,840
you're going to be fired, right?
So it's a different type of

1904
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:19,920
pressure.
It's a very positive pressure

1905
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:24,520
that I'm trying to improve my
family life or whatever versus

1906
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:27,240
this guy's a Dick.
He's going to fire me if I don't

1907
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,040
hit these numbers off, you know?
So it's all in the packaging on

1908
01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:32,160
that one.
Like it's all in the

1909
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:34,280
presentation.
It's all in the packaging and

1910
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:38,600
it's all in the details.
But you know, I agree with you

1911
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:41,800
for being nervous, but I would
do it like 100% do it.

1912
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:42,920
That's.
Definitely food for thought.

1913
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:45,960
Yeah, well, again, if you want
to talk about it off the air,

1914
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:48,760
call me anytime, you know,
because I'm happy to have those

1915
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,360
conversations and I'm really
creative when it comes to that

1916
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:53,080
stuff.
You know, I've, I've definitely

1917
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:57,520
structured some wacky deals in
companies for other companies,

1918
01:40:58,480 --> 01:41:01,920
you know, and stuff like that.
So it's definitely in my

1919
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,320
wheelhouse, that kind of stuff.
But I wanted to read a quote

1920
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:07,840
that you gave us in in the notes
which I loved.

1921
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:11,840
And you maybe love hate.
You probably have a love hate

1922
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:14,600
relationship with this quote.
But you said the best way to

1923
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:18,320
sucker me into a project I don't
want to do is to tell me it

1924
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:21,680
can't be done.
Yeah, it's true.

1925
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:24,040
I love that.
I love that.

1926
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:26,920
Like that's such a cool.
And I don't think you wrote it

1927
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:28,880
as a quote.
I think it's just who you are,

1928
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:30,000
right?
It's just part of your

1929
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:33,120
character.
That's kind of been my love for

1930
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:36,680
the industry is you tell me that
we have to load this whole thing

1931
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:39,240
in and have it up and going by
1:00 and I'm going to find a

1932
01:41:39,240 --> 01:41:42,480
way.
Yeah, I like.

1933
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:43,600
That.
Cuz I'm the same way.

1934
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:46,600
Yeah, I'm the same way.
Tell me I can't do it.

1935
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:50,480
Trying to create the impossible.
And back when I was doing more

1936
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:53,960
design work, I'd come up with
stuff that was mind boggling.

1937
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,360
How does that even work?
And I love seeing that stuff.

1938
01:41:56,400 --> 01:42:00,200
I love, I love seeing the the
stuff that's coming out of like

1939
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:03,160
what EDC is doing down at like I
think that was down Florida

1940
01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:06,520
where they suddenly had a 80
foot span of clear span Truss.

1941
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:07,560
Holy shit.
I.

1942
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:10,880
Know, I know.
But my buddy Eric designed that

1943
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:13,680
and I was just like, I had to
call him up and be like, are you

1944
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:15,320
fucking nuts?
Like how?

1945
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:20,880
And they used like basic
construction crane trusting to

1946
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:22,680
EDM.
Doing some really cool stuff.

1947
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:25,560
But here's a funny thing that
Mark, you know who Mark Brickman

1948
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:28,280
is, right?
He was Pink Floyd's lighting

1949
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:31,320
designer forever, but brilliant
designer.

1950
01:42:31,320 --> 01:42:34,400
Like as good as they come.
And Mark said to me, you know,

1951
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:36,320
you know what I don't get about
EDM?

1952
01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:39,840
And I said, what?
And he said, listen, if I'm

1953
01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:42,560
standing there in the crowd
stoned out of my fucking brains

1954
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:45,560
on Molly, the last thing I want
is a bunch of white strobe

1955
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:47,720
lights flashing in my face all
the time.

1956
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:50,040
I'm like, yeah, you got a good
point.

1957
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:53,400
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Maybe that's why they get crazy.

1958
01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:55,760
I don't know, I.
Yeah.

1959
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:59,960
EDM is a very interesting
market, and I said this years

1960
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:03,400
ago.
The EDM has been very, very good

1961
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:08,560
for our industry because a kind
of guy with two laptops and a

1962
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:10,520
mixer just isn't that fucking
exciting.

1963
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:13,960
Like, give me Mick Jagger doing
a guitar solo and doing

1964
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:16,880
backflips.
Yeah, there are DJs who do that.

1965
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:18,720
The Jagger doesn't need all the
production drugs.

1966
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:21,840
Jumps up on the DJ table and
like jumps around and like he's

1967
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:24,640
active and does stuff.
But 90% of the DJs out there,

1968
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:26,360
they just sit there and they
kind of do this.

1969
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:29,760
And so you really.
Need. 50 strobe lights to make

1970
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:33,040
it exciting you really need that
many movers to make it that much

1971
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:35,200
more exciting because.
That's the show, kind of.

1972
01:43:35,400 --> 01:43:37,960
Boring.
Yeah, but that's the show.

1973
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:41,520
Yeah, it makes the show.
And that drove the rest of the

1974
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:43,800
industry.
So now you have all these other

1975
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:46,160
acts that not like.
Trying to compete.

1976
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:51,360
My God Sufjan Stevens right?
They're like a crossover

1977
01:43:51,360 --> 01:43:56,880
Christian folk music ish act.
The last time I saw them on tour

1978
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,280
they had like, well, big
lighting package and like wacky

1979
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:04,400
WAVY inflatable arm guys and
spectacle and it like I think

1980
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:09,240
that is all thanks to EDMI Think
because EDM drove production

1981
01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:12,240
values up, everyone else had to
fall in line and everyone else

1982
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:15,000
had to jump on and go well shit,
we better get a floor package.

1983
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:17,480
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you're right.

1984
01:44:17,480 --> 01:44:21,480
Thanks DJs.
Yeah, well, Joe, I have to do

1985
01:44:21,480 --> 01:44:22,800
other things.
So do you.

1986
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,240
And it's been enjoyable.
We, we managed to somehow skate

1987
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:30,960
around politics and I like that
and, and I even still like you,

1988
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:34,280
even though you know you, you
vote differently than me.

1989
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:36,320
Go figure.
Isn't that crazy that we could

1990
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:39,760
still be friends?
Full disclosure for all of the

1991
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:43,440
people out there watching this,
Marcel and I had a rather long

1992
01:44:43,440 --> 01:44:46,880
conversation about politics
before we started this podcast.

1993
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:50,280
And we both walked out of it
still having mutual respect for

1994
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:55,440
each other and having some, you
know, obviously we disagree on

1995
01:44:55,440 --> 01:44:58,680
some stuff, but there we are.
And I would encourage the rest

1996
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:01,840
of you out there and in podcast
land or video land or wherever

1997
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:05,040
this is, Oh my God, do the same
like.

1998
01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:07,800
Yeah, well, but don't do it
online.

1999
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:11,360
Don't do it on social media,
because it's a lynching

2000
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:13,120
regardless of which side you're
on.

2001
01:45:13,120 --> 01:45:16,080
It's a lynching if you go in and
try to debate with somebody

2002
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:20,840
within a social media string of
messages, it's a lynching and

2003
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:22,600
it's no fun.
For half the people in that

2004
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:24,440
string of messages are Russian
bots.

2005
01:45:24,800 --> 01:45:27,360
It's stupid.
They're they're there to make us

2006
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:29,440
hate each other and to divide
us.

2007
01:45:29,440 --> 01:45:32,840
And I love sitting, having a
beer or a cup of coffee with

2008
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,000
somebody and talking about
things that I don't know

2009
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:38,040
anything about or that I don't
agree with and hearing their

2010
01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:39,960
opinion.
And maybe I'll come a little

2011
01:45:39,960 --> 01:45:42,480
closer to where you're at.
I probably won't completely

2012
01:45:42,480 --> 01:45:45,600
change my mind, but you know,
I'll probably agree on some

2013
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:47,760
things and you might even agree
on some things I say.

2014
01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:49,240
But I'm glad you brought that
up.

2015
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:51,520
Virtual handshake Earlier, we
agreed.

2016
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,480
We found a common ground that we
agreed upon on one topic.

2017
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:56,920
Yeah, yeah.
No.

2018
01:45:57,480 --> 01:46:01,160
And I think we probably agree on
more than than either of us

2019
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:03,840
knows right now.
Like I think both of us puffed

2020
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:06,600
our chest a little bit and said
I'm standing over here, I'm

2021
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:10,160
standing over here, you know.
And but I think we agree on more

2022
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:12,440
than more than we don't.
So.

2023
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,880
But anyways, thanks Joe.
I appreciate it very much and

2024
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:19,760
you know, hope things get a hell
of a lot better for you and

2025
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:21,440
definitely go forward and do
that deal.

2026
01:46:21,440 --> 01:46:24,400
It sounds like an incredible
opportunity to change the face

2027
01:46:24,400 --> 01:46:27,720
of your business in a sense.
And sometimes adding one person

2028
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:29,560
can do that and this might be
the person.

2029
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:33,200
So I mean if you believe in the
person, I would do it 100%.

2030
01:46:33,480 --> 01:46:35,680
We'll find out.
Yeah, Stay tuned.

2031
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:37,480
All right, my friend.
See you later.

2032
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:39,000
Bye, Marcel.