#254 - Scott De Vos

0:01 Hey there, welcome to Gears of Gear episode #254 just finished recording this with Scott DeVos. What a great guy, incredible stories. One of the very few people in our industry who can say he's been doing this 52 years. He really is one of the Ogs of the industry and just has some great insight, knows so many people, has been involved in so many things. And we literally could have talked for 3 1/2 hours, but I know you all would have yelled at me for doing so, but I really, really hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Scott DeVos, again, 52 years in the industry, almost entirely in the touring business, knows everyone. We talked about a few of them.

0:49 Again, we could have talked for three hours. We just had to shut it down. We, it's funny, we ended the podcast and then talked for another 20 minutes after the podcast ended. So please enjoy episode #254 on Geysers of gear. Welcome to episode #254 Today's podcast is brought to you by AVL Media Group, the exclusive US distributor for Midas Lab Group in the now shipping Lake LMX processors, Tanoi Clark Technique, Turbosound, Aston Wharfedale Pro and also adding BZB gear products to their lineup. They're committed to delivering excellence to their partners at every level by providing outstanding pre and post sales service and support.

1:37 AVL, your premier North American distribution partner. AVL Media Group is committed to developing a long term, mutually beneficial business relationship with its dealers through professional products at competitive prices, backed by excellent sales service and Technical Support. AVL concentrates on project based installation, servicing the design and contractor markets with their unique approach and innovative products. AVL Media Group is the main go to company for audio, video and lighting in North America. Visit avlmediagroup.com and today's podcast is also brought to you by the incredible Row Visual Row. The display technology behind powerhouse tours like Adele, Metallica, Ed Sheeran and so many more comes the Topaz series.

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3:14 Reduce color shift and poor viewing angles as Topaz creates smooth and flawless curves that let your audience focus on the experience, not the LED screen. For more information on Topaz and other LED solutions, visit rowvisual.com Today. Orea, I'm back and so guess what gear is freeing up on the used market? This is a news flash. You know, again, I think you know that I am in the used gear business. I own a company called Gear Source. And we're seeing especially starting in September, everyone's saying, you know, September, everything's coming back, especially Europe where, you know, you have the Olympics starting I guess in a couple of weeks in France. I was actually speaking with one of our large French partners yesterday and they said they're pretty much booked on every piece of equipment that they have. And the other thing is pricing has gone up considerably, I guess over the past couple of months as inventory was running out with all of these companies.

4:20 You know, it's become much more of a competitive market. I'm not competitive. Actually the opposite of that. It's, it's a seller's market right now because buyers need stuff and so or renters, I should say, need stuff. So you know, all of these last minute things that all of a sudden need 500 moving lights or a line array system or whatever. And but you know, when this is all over and summer festival season's over, Europe definitely slows down. They don't have the arena tours that we have here in the United States. So, you know, we will still be busy in the United States, but even here I'm hearing a lot of in North America, a lot of companies are looking to deplete inventory over the fall. So it's going to be interesting.

5:08 It's going to be an interesting fall. Lots and lots of gear available. And so I look forward to being really busy on the AI front. So Open AI has a secret new update coming that they're calling Strawberry. And so Strawberry is meant to push AI forward with what they're calling human like reasoning. And so meaning that it will plan and make decisions much more like a human. It will it will use human like reasoning in its decision making, which is going to be very interesting. They're saying that the industries that will benefit the most initially will be healthcare, which you know, I've been saying for a long time, there's a lot to gain from AI in healthcare, especially when it comes to research for diseases that we haven't done very well in, in curing with human researchers or human methods, call it. I think AI will be very, very much successful in those areas. Cancer, Alzheimer's, some of the ones that just have stumped the medical community for so long and resulting in many, many unnecessary deaths.

6:31 So certainly healthcare. Another one was financial, you know, being able to predict market trends and to better share those market trends, again using human reasoning and education legal, you know, which I've already been using it for simple legal agreements, but it will be able to research on case history and case law and things like that as well. Do a lot of stuff that you pay a lot of lawyers to do that should shrink your legal bills. So you can still use a lawyer, but hopefully those lawyers will be using AI researchers and we'll be able to lower your cost.

7:15 Now, my knowledge of the legal industry is that they won't. So they'll use AI and still charge you 450 bucks an hour. And but we'll see. I mean, I think that business is going to become much more competitive as well. What else in AI? Oh, this is sort of a downside of AI or a negative blemish on AI. The record Plant in LA, which is, you know, obviously an iconic recording studio where I'm just going to, off the top of my head, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Blondie, Springsteen, Metallica, so many big, big, big acts have recorded there for so many years. They're closing and they're blaming lower costs of mainly AI, but also home studios and just, you know, the simplicity of recording on a laptop now versus having to go into a, a major studio.

8:14 But AI music production is, is the big thing that they're blaming on their demise. So, you know, I'm sure we're going to see other businesses that are failing to compete with progress and not just AI, but other things like, you know, certainly when UPS started delivering goods everyday, you had couriers that were going out of business. And most of the Courier companies are gone now. Uber has impacted taxis in a very negative way. Would we want to put Uber back in the genie bottle? I don't think so because, you know, I think Uber has been a really good thing. That was an industry that needed to be disrupted. And so, you know, there's some sad ones and and there are some that just kind of needed disrupting. And I would say an iconic studio like the Record Plant. That's a bummer.

9:04 But maybe they just didn't advance their business model ahead. I don't know, I don't know enough about it. I just think it's kind of sad. Another thing I read about on the music kick here or following music and I wanted to share my screen, but using this app, it's very difficult to share your screen, so I'm not going to do it. But you can go in and search for this on YouTube. The artist's name is Arata ARATA and I don't know if I'm pronouncing the 1st or last name right, but it's Arata Fukoe FUKOE. And so go search for that music video, maybe put the AI in there as well. So a Ratafuco AI video and find this latest music video by I assume it's a her because it's a her in the video. There's no real anything or anyone. All of the people, everything about this song and this video is done by AI.

10:03 So they used ChatGPT for the lyrics. They used Suno, which is a music app I've talked about with you before. They use that for the music to to actually write the song, make the song, compose the song. They use Luma for video, which is a really great AI app for video. Mid Journey, a very common image app for AI or using AI, they use that for all imagery in the video. And so yeah, nothing about it is real. It's all done by AI, which is, which is pretty amazing when you look at it, I think you'll be like, whoa, like I don't like the song necessarily, but it sure sounds real to me. And even some of the people in it, like the, the people kind of look real.

10:52 Like you can certainly tell they're AI, but you know, you got to think about it a little bit. So check that out. I thought it was pretty cool. I'm kind of excited today again, like I always am. I love all of our guests. And so today we have oh, first, before I get to that, I want to remind you again to like and subscribe. So wherever you're consuming this content, listening, watching, please like and subscribe the content because that does help us. It helps us to generate a larger audience, which helps us to get more sponsors, which helps us to produce more podcasts. I've told you before, it does cost money to do this.

11:34 And you know, my goal in life, I guess, is to break even, not not to make a profit on on podcasting. And so that's really all we're trying to do. We bring on some great sponsors. We're very proud of our sponsors. We're very grateful for our sponsors, but we need to keep growing our audience. And to do that, liking and subscribing helps a lot. So I would appreciate if you just click the like button and also subscribe to our podcast wherever you are or to our YouTube channel. Thank you, I appreciate that. And so today's guest is Scott DeVos, who's been in the industry over 50 years and was recommended.

12:14 I don't know why I didn't think of it myself because I've known Scott DeVos for a long time, but recommended to come on the podcast by my friend David Miley. And so Scott is the owner of Deluxe Productions has produced numerous events. Scott worked for a regional sound company even before tours carried their own gear. He stage managed a showcase nightclub, worked for major artists. Scott worked for Obie's Lighting. I believe that's where I met him was at Obie's lighting. Don't even know what year Long time ago. And he toured with Fleetwood Mac. And in his early years he spent time as a production manager for promoter Barry Faye.

12:56 Even before bands had their own production managers. Scott also designed and installed. This is a great little piece of trivia. He designed and installed the first roof on Red Rocks Amphitheater. Go figure. I bet you didn't know that. And so please welcome Scott de Vos to the podcast. Hello, Scott. Hey, Marcel. What's going on? Well, beautiful day in the neighborhood. Where are you? I'm actually in Jamestown, TN, we are about an hour from Interstate 40 or Interstate 75 in the North East ish corner of Tennessee.

13:45 We're surrounded by a park, a National Park, the Big Sky, Cork, the river and recreation area, and it's something like 150,000 acres or something like that. And it connects to several other parks going north into Kentucky, the Boone National Forest and Sounds. Beautiful. And we are adjacent to and located right on horse trails and there's 300 miles of horse trails right here. Sounds so nice. It's gorgeous. I love it. Other than the fact that you probably get flooded like once every five years or no? No, I'm on a hillside.

14:27 Oh nice. My house in Nashville got flooded, but this one, this one hasn't doesn't have that problem. Wow, so you you moved to Nashville a long time ago and just never left, huh? Yes, yeah, interesting. I was with the OB company working for Dave Overman and. I think that's where I met you, by the way, I think I met you first when you were working. Was was Scott Jevons there at the time you were there? Yes. Yeah, I'm sure I met you with the OB company and I probably wasn't a significant meeting or anything because I, I generally just went in there and, and you know, got beat up by Scott Jevons for a little while because there was problems with lights or something.

15:13 And I said hello to Dave and how you doing, blah, blah, blah. And then that was it. That was my whole visit usually. That could have been in the early 90s. I I rose to the position of the vice president and general manager and convinced Dave that we needed an office in Nashville. And, and he, he liked the idea of a Nashville office, but couldn't imagine anybody wanting to move there. And my family and I were ready for a move. So in 1990, we came here and opened up the Obie's office in Nashville. Wow. Yeah. And it's funny you say that now. Nobody would want to move to Nashville. And it's obviously a completely different place now than it was in the early 90s.

16:00 You know, I and you're wearing a perfectly appropriate shirt today, by the way, which I happen to love the old TLS shirts. And you know, it's, it looks great because it's so loose on you, which means which means you're a lot lighter than you were at one point, which is a very good thing, you know, because I know a lot of people that can't wear the clothes from before because they're heavier now than they used to be. And that's not a good direction to go as we get older. But where was I going with this? Oh, you know, Dave Miley always tells me these old stories of Nashville when, you know, a big show was like 12 in Tela beams on a country act, right? And you know, now you see these country acts touring with like 1000 Moving Lights or whatever.

16:48 It's just insane. It's crazy how big it's gotten. Well, there's been a huge arc in our industry. I mean, I started in 1970. Wow. You know, literally working in a in a College in Denver. As you know, I was one of the college students that would unload the trucks in exchange for a T-shirt and a box launch and and then one of the. What truck? Like a lighting truck or. Well, at that time it was literally just band gear and a local sound company and a local lighting company. Yeah, I guess there wasn't really a lighting truck per SE in 1970.

17:32 The first touring, the first touring artist I saw that came in with actual production was America and they played our college and this would have been probably 73 would have been 72 anyway, right in there 7172 and and it was FM productions and they had they had a a truck and trailer rig that was originally designed as a mobile post office. And the front half of the front, not even a half front maybe fourth of the semi trailer was Funks and had a crew and the back portion of the semi was where they had their sound and lighting. Yeah, and I used to travel in similar school buses, converted school buses where the front was like enough seats for the band and our one crew and and you had to sleep on top of like speaker cabinets or something, you know, in the back of it where the gear was.

18:41 But yeah, that was a terrible story. Yeah, but the, the, the the industry was, is really that young. I mean, keep in mind when the when The Beatles toured America, they used the stadium sound systems. So if you heard them in Shea Stadium, you heard them through the PA that announced the baseball game. So true. Yeah, so true. Yeah. I mean, when when I read some of those early, early stories of things like that and I just read, I forget his name, but the original Roadie from The Beatles, just recently his family put out basically his memoir, and it's a fantastic book. I think it's called My Life with The Beatles or something like that, and just an incredible bunch of stories. But he talked about that and then over time how they were able to augment those speakers.

19:39 But yeah, you're right. It it isn't that long ago. Yeah, I mean, and I was hired off the college crew to work with a a local company, local sound company. And we would do little regional tours. We would pick up REO Speedwagon or Nazareth and we would, we would be their sound company starting in like South Dakota, Wyoming, a couple dates in Colorado and then we'd hand them off to like. Roadrunner audio that would pick him up in New Mexico and carry him through Arizona. Yeah, You know, it's funny, I, I think there are so few people call them the young people these days who, who understand that, you know, it was regional touring companies or regional sound companies, regional lighting companies.

20:27 Back then it wasn't national and companies. So, you know, Bob C would start a tour at in New York or whatever and take it so far and then hand it off to somebody else and they would take it so far and then hand it off to somebody else. When when did that shift? Like when did we make the change from regional to to national that you can? Recall some somewhere, somewhere national all the way through in that in that earliest Ivy era. I mean, because like I remember The Rolling Stones and Chicago Beach Boys, you know, 2 early stadium shows that I worked in like 1975 and and they both had Claire brothers audio and then they had Claire and they had Tom Field and associates.

21:23 They were both TFA Claire, you know, partnerships and and Shoko was doing stuff nationwide. But Shoko would be, you know, when they would handle production such that they would do the production advance. There weren't even production managers for some of these artists. They would hire Shoko and you know, the, the, the company would take care of, you know, advancing. The building and put it together. Interesting. So like you started you're, you're talking about 1970. So and was was your you were production, you were full production basically.

22:06 So you weren't just focused on lighting you didn't have or you weren't just focused on audio or were you? Did you have a specific? Discipline. The the actual start for me was probably lighting and, and I was in Denver, Co and I would rent, I worked with a guy named Graham Lewis and then he kind of got out of it and left it to me. And I would rent equipment from an old college stagehand, a guy named Tommy Seymour and and Tommy had actually been the lighting electrician guy for Sonya Henny, the great Sonya Henny ice skating marvel and and star of of the 30s.

22:58 And she had toured with lighting as kind of like an ice Capade kind of a show. Interesting. Anyway, so I would rent these old lux troll dimmers and some steel par cans and Lycos and boom bases and sidearms. And I would do lights for concerts that came through town again, whether it was Mario or Nazareth or Steve Miller Band and do that. And then I, like I said, hooked up with a sound company and kind of offered them some lighting opportunities in addition to sound. But I also did front of house mixing for this local sound company. So I've done at different points of my life sound and lights. And then we went and we did an install in a nightclub and I became the stage manager for the nightclub. And this is 74 ish 73 somewhere in there. And the nightclub business right then was fantastic because there were so many artists that were at, at a dinner show kind of a club.

24:10 So, so we had, we would book a week at a time. We'd have Ramsey Lewis one week or Willie Nelson one week. We'd have Earl Garner or Jerry Lewis. We'd have Jerry Lee Lewis. We'd have Della Reese, Leslie Uggams, Bobby Goldsboro, Glenn Yarrborough, anybody. So each week would be somebody different. And so I had a chance to work with a number of different artists, and one of those jazz artists took me on the road. Oh. Interesting. So I was on the road in the early 70s with a guy named George Sherry, jazz pianist, but he played literally every every state in the union while I worked with him.

25:02 And and then I came back and hooked up with the outdoor concerts doing working for local promoters again. They were local promoters, were the next Segway into production because they were hiring the sound and lights. They would hire a band and then the band would require them to provide the sound and lights. I see a bit different than now. And so the early promoters production had production managers that really I think kind of started our industry. I mean, you've probably heard of Patrick Stansfield of.

25:43 Course. You know, he was working with Bill Graham and can't remember his first name. We always called him Killer Khan. He was with Bill Graham. In fact, he was actually Bill's pilot when he died at the Stevie Ray Vaughan in the helicopter and Michael Ahern. Yeah. Michael Heard started with Bill Graham again in the New York area. So the idea was like there was no, it wasn't like today where you have a full design team, lighting design and and audio engineers and all of those people who are specifying product like it was this is what you're going to use get on stage, right?

26:27 Like the band band didn't have their own design team or whatever because it wasn't. And so, and so to a certain extent, the, the local promoters were impresarios and they were putting on a show. So, so in those early days when you had a, a, you know, a Bill Graham, or in my case, Barry Faye in Denver, you know, Arnie Granite and Jam in Chicago or the Belkin Brothers in, in Cleveland and Ohio, they would, they would put together a production. In fact, the earliest portions of stadium shows they were the ones hiring the stage and and roof companies.

27:09 Interesting. So I didn't know that. So the artist did not necessarily spec who was going to supply their stage and roof. The promoter supplied it and they came and stood on the stage. So was there any, was there any communication with the band as far as their needs like, you know, for lighting or for audio or for staging or whatever, like, or was it just, you're going to get up and play, this is what you're going to stand under? I think it probably varied by artist, you know, some got more involved than others. It was, it was a bit rudimentary at the time, Yeah.

27:50 I mean in the early. Speaking of rudimentary Scott, so like from what I understand and I wasn't in the business yet in the 70s, but from what I understand basically sound companies didn't go out and buy a JBL sound system or a Meyer sound system or L acoustic or whatever. They just went into their shop and created some boxes that sounded half decent, built enough of them when they needed to do a bigger venue, they built more of them. And you know, same with lighting. Like I've spoken to people in our industry, same thing where they created their own lighting packages. Like Paul Dexter, I remember telling me about building his first lighting rig out of pineapple cans where he created par cans from pineapple cans. And so is that like your memory of it as well? Like everything was pretty much homemade. Well, I saw that, but I did never actually have any homemade equipment of my own.

28:53 I tended to work with companies and have never really owned equipment, but I did see it. So in 76, I started with Tom Field and Associates and TFA had a couple of very brilliant design engineers, McGraw and Miles, John McGraw and John Miles and just brilliant. I mean, you know, they invented the, the what's called the Phoenix roof, which was a, a roof structure that kind of became the standard and the only thing that was used for those first early years of outdoor stadium shows. And.

29:37 They also invented things like the loony ladder and and a curved arch Truss that was real popular with Neil Diamond and others. This. Is the this is the same John McGraw from Production Arts? John McGraw. Quite possibly I've lost complete track of him, but. Yeah. Well, I mean, Production arts would have started, I believe, in the late 80s, maybe early 90s, and it was John McGraw and Steve Terry. And then they sold the company to PRG, late 90s probably. Quite possibly. I know he did the early Madonna's. Early Madonna tours. Yeah, the one where the big columns did stood up, right? Yeah, that was McGraw.

30:19 Interesting. Yeah, I, I'm just curious. I, I don't know if that's the case or not, but it sure seems strange that we'd have two big guys in our lighting business called John McGraw. Yeah, so. And and and Tom Field and associates kind of dissolved, disappeared in 78 I guess with when they merged with with Electrotech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing because they were such a big name in the early days because anytime somebody comes on who's call it, you know, over a certain age, like over your mid 60s or whatever, so many people will come on and talk about Tom Felt or Tom Field and Associates, sorry and and, you know, touring with them or doing shows with them or whatever.

31:12 I've had so many of these conversations, but again, it was before my time so. Well, I I remember hearing a story from Lenore Gessner, who later became Lenore Travis, George Travis's wife, rest her soul. But she she told a story of being getting a last minute phone call from the first Woodstock and that she and Tom loaded spotlights into a truck and took them out to Woodstock and delivered spotlights. Probably never saw him again either. Yeah. And that's true that that probably was the beginning of the long term relationship with Chipmunk, who also did a lot of work with TFA in those days. Oh wow, yeah.

32:00 As employees, we used to joke that Tom had a had a philosophy that if he could, if he could get every tour, if he would. His goal was to get every tour out there, and he felt that if he could lose just a little on each one, he could make up for it in volume. That's incredible. You know, Scott, I'm not trying to age you or anything, but you've got to be one of the Ogs of our industry. I I don't think I'm one of the original guys, but I was in the room with them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's not very many people. I get a lot of people who come on and say, yeah, I've been in the business for 45 years now or whatever.

32:42 Not too many people who say over 50 / 50 years in the industry. There's a few I, I think I've been making a living in this industry for 52 years and I and I might be one of the, I might be, I'm, I'm of that generation. That is probably the first ones to do it exclusively because like I said, there, there wasn't an industry per Southeast before the 70s. I mean, Stan Miller, Stan Miller would be older than me. Stan, Stan L sound and, and you were talking about sound companies. You didn't go out and buy a Meyer system, but there was an outfit in either Saint Louis or Kansas City, I think Saint Louis I think called Hyle.

33:24 And we bought a lot of components from HYLE and we would then put together those components and build our own subcases or big, you know, W bins, Perkins bins and only audio guys would even know what those are anymore big sub boxes. I know W bins really well 'cause I slept on so many of them in the school buses, you know, So before the Martin, the phase plug Martin stuff came out, the fiberglass Martin or whatever they were, and they were so much smaller and less comfortable to sleep on. I didn't like those, you know, they so supposedly they sounded a lot better, but they weren't comfortable to sleep on so. I didn't like them.

34:05 Well, that's almost the size of a full bunk. I mean they were made out of a sheet of four by 8 plywood. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I've played through lots and lots of West bins in my time. Yeah, so that was, you know, that's where people were making their own speakers and, and building them with components. They weren't actually, you know, making their own drivers, but they'd buy a driver from, from Heil ETILI think it was and, or, and then they'd put a or they'd buy a really long fiberglass horn, which was Stanhill's kind of a trademark. We used to call them Stanley screamers. The the big really long throw horns that were always part of his sound systems. And he had to be one of the earliest ones that was on tours because he hooked up with some of the artists. We're going back to the to the promoter and an artist combination.

35:04 Jerry Weintraub was Concerts West and he was one of the first, in fact, I think he was the first to do nationwide promoting and and I think he'd maybe even done that with Elvis. But he also picked up Neil Diamond and John Denver and he would put together a production package which included, you know, generally TFA for lighting and in those cases, Stanley Stan, Stan Miller, Stan L sound for audio and and to to her forever. Wow, that's incredible. So, you know, there's so many steps between there and here.

35:47 You know what I mean? Like from those early days in the 70s when everybody created their own sound and lighting packages or you know, in a lighting package might be for follow spots. I mean, were you even using like stands? You weren't using trussing yet or anything like that in the 70s now and so the lighting systems were pretty small. Like what was a lighting system for a a touring like for a REO Speedwagon or whoever? Again, you know, I wasn't connected with him for the tour, but you know, I was limited by how much gear, you know, my local stagehanded owned. And he he literally had it stored underneath some of the buildings in Denver.

36:30 He used the parking lot of the, you know, Convention Center as his warehouse. And we'd go down there and get these old wooden boxes and take the par cans out and some 12-3 cable and lux troll dimmers. And I would set up next to the stage because we weren't using digital cable, we weren't using, you know, digital boards. You couldn't get out the front. The first time I saw that was a couple of years later when Marty Wolf bought a bought a system to do The Doobie Brothers. Marty Wolf was the first guy to do The Doobie Brothers, I think.

37:12 And the first time he used his brand new lighting system was for Joe Walsh and the Barnstorm. And it was, it was what? That little plastic console, Little 2 scene console. It's all before my time, my friend. Man, tiny, tiny little dimmer package. But it was, it was the first one. You could actually be out in front and see the stage with this thing, and it was real. They're really noisy dimmers. I mean, sound guys hated them. Yeah, I can't think of them now. Scrimmer Scrimmer dimmers. OK, yeah, I remember scrimmers. Yeah, yeah, that is before my time.

37:52 But I sold a lot of them, you know, because I, I started Gear Source 20 years ago and I remember people bringing scrimmers to me still, you know, that they were selling because at the time there was still a lot of market for any kind of dimmers, but not so much anymore. It's been a real interesting our whole industry has had that traditional curve of of early adapters into maturity and acceptance. And you know, the the earliest companies and the ones that's that it were big were back in the days when the artist first got in tune with needing production and then formed a relationship with the company.

38:44 So, so like, like the the most obvious one is Genesis and very light. So, so Genesis was, was married to Shoko and saw the potential for the very light and invested in it and, and, and created that product with them with, with Obie's Fleetwood Mac was, was with, was with Dave Olbermann early on. I mean, they were still literally a bar band, a Blues bar band before Stevie and Lindsay joined the group. And and that relationship was so tight that they stayed with them and Fleetwood financed the growth of the OB company. I did not know that.

39:34 That's an interesting story. I mean, because, well that was, you know, the artist would would you know, they were getting these huge tour support packages from the record label. They would have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest. They would spend it pre paying for the production to be built for them. Interesting. So and so companies would go out, you know, basically Fleetwood's checkbook and buy the equipment or, or on the Fleetwood contract, the bank would loan the company, but it was enough so that they were married together. Yeah, so, you know, I, I had always heard a similar story with Pink Floyd as well, right? Yep.

40:19 Yep. So I'm and I've heard multiple versions of this story. So I kind of heard an OB version, I heard a Keeling version, and I think I heard a Mark brick mark Brickman version as well. And of course, everyone takes credit for. Oh, and then there was somebody else who was the other person who told me. No, it was me who created the Telescan anyways. But I'm sure you know the real story. Oh, what was his name? There's a guy who did Zeb Cochran, Not Cochran. Zeb Cochran? Yeah, Zeb Cochran. Zeb, I believe, and I always hate when I do this. I'm almost positive Zeb passed away a few years ago. He did? Yeah.

41:00 Yeah, God rest his soul. Zeb was a smart dude. That guy taught me so much in the early days. Oh my goodness, what a smart guy. He taught everybody. He, he was one of those guys. I think he was, he was. He was fluent in multiple digital languages. Yeah, yeah. So the probably all stories are correct, OK, because they were all present. The part that they might have missed was the actual introduction, and that happens with. That's my little contributor, my little piece. One second here, Scott, I want to show you something. I was able to find that.

41:45 I was able to find that picture you were talking about. Yeah, you'd asked me a minute ago if how long Obie's had been a, you know, called the Obie Company and. And there's a classic Stevie Nicks wearing an Obie's T-shirt. Well, and she can't be more than 2223 years old in that picture, so that's an old one. So Obie's, Obie's has been was always with Fleetwood Mac and was with Fleetwood Mac before Stevie was. So, and I'm sure you've heard that story that's. AI haven't. I haven't. That's another amazing story. Jesus. Oh, the Stevie Lindsay story that it's pretty well known. I short version, Fleetwood Mac was a Blues band playing local clubs and small, you know, Mars and the lead singer at the time might have been Peter.

42:42 Somebody anyway decided to leave the band. So they were they were missing a lead singer. Simultaneous with that, there was a studio in I think it was North Hollywood that was trying to get them to come record there and as a demo to convince them come use my studio. He brought a A record that they'd recorded there, which was these two kids from Arizona called Buckingham Knicks. And it was Stevie and Lindsay as a duet. And they were impressed with the sound and said, yeah, I'm interested in your studio, but I really want to meet that guitar player. And they met Lindsay, liked him, wanted to hire him. And Lindsay said, OK, but you have to hire my girlfriend as well.

43:36 And so Stevie and Lindsay joined the band. Wow, that's. Incredible. I didn't know that. I had no idea that that's how it started. That was never a. Huge fan. I guess so I didn't. That was like 75 ish and and by the end of 76 they were playing stadiums. Jesus, yeah, that thing took off. 7077, they were playing, yeah. You know, it, it's so funny in in music and history and everything when you look and say, well, if that would have just happened a little bit different, you know, we might not have had some of the iconic music that we have today. And so if if Lindsay hadn't insisted that his girlfriend come along, we'd be missing some stuff.

44:21 Yeah, we would. Absolutely, Absolutely. But you were specifically asking about the Pink Floyd, the Telescan, I think it was called. Yeah. And so I was attending a church, First Baptist of Redondo Beach, and one of the elders there was a guy named John Roberts who was worked for Hughes Aircraft. And he was interested in marketing Hughes products, not only inside the company to other divisions so that, you know, aircraft knew what, you know, satellites were doing and satellite, Hughes Aircraft, you know, everybody needed to know more about it. They were just that giant of a company. They had an inside salesman just to sell to themselves, and so he was also interested in selling to something else, and he thought maybe the entertainment market would be something that they could get into. And so about that time, Mark Brickman was working closely with Obie's Lighting and Mike Keeling was kind of the account executive at the time.

45:21 And I hooked them up with John Roberts and he sent a helicopter from Hughes down to the Torrance Airport, picked the two of them up and gave them the nickel tour of what Hughes Aircraft was willing to show the world. And one of the things that they fell in love with was a helicopter Searchlight. And OB said, great, let's see if we can't turn that into a fixture for you. Because Brickman said that you, you build it, I'll use it. And so we we took the the same concept as the Telescan. The French was it?

46:02 What was it called? The French product called? Well there was Z scan as well, but Telescan was the French. One. So Telescan was the French product. Telescan was the French product made by Chameleon. Chameleon in France, right? Yeah. And the Z scan was the OB knock off of a Telescan using this Hughes bulb. And Zeb Cochran would have been integral to that because he was working, he was hired on and he was Mr. DMX at the time and could could understand all the programming that went into it and. So the Z scan that was on like Pink Floyd and and Michael Jackson and like all these huge, massive, iconic, incredible shows was a helicopter Searchlight with a mirror on the front and and a scroller.

46:52 Yep. Unreal. Yep, it's amazing. Yeah, and the and the scroller was developed in conjunction with Wybron. Yeah, yeah, I I remember that. That's such a cool story. The beast of a fixture. Yeah. So, you know, we jumped ahead a little bit. So you were in the early 70s, you were doing some mixed things. You got picked up by a jazz artist somewhere there. You ended up at Obie. But am I missing a big step in between? Well, there was so I left the jazz artist and I went back and forth to the nightclub and I did some, you know, smaller artists. I was on tour with Doug Kershaw, the the Ragin Cajun and in the 70s working I I literally was a walk on stagehand at a stadium show. 1975, The Beach Boys in Chicago are playing together and I heard they were hiring crew. And so I went up outside the stadium, slept in my Jeep that night and walked on the next day and started working. And by the end of the week, I was the crew chief. There'd been a yeah.

48:07 It. Was I ended up being the guy that that worked well with others and and had a little bit bigger picture than most of the other people. And so I just. Got a clue? Give him the gig. Yeah, exactly. And so and so they they just so the people from Tom Field and associates who were doing the lighting and Clare Brothers that was doing the sound just would come to me and say I need 4 guys and I would pick four guys and send them there. And then they'd come back to me and say I need two guys over here. Like send these guys over there. So I just kind of became the the crew chief Stewart and the the same stage that we had built for Chicago Beach Boys stayed in place. It was it was built by a company out of Michigan and the the guy building it was a guy named Kevin Wall, awesome, amazing salesman who who has goes goes on and has another significant part of my career later.

49:08 But we built the stage, left it there and two weeks later The Rolling Stones played there with the infamous Mobius roof supplied by TFA. And again, I'm the interface between the two. So, so for Chicago Beach Boys, I'm dealing with Jean Claire, who was the head sound guy for that crew. And then the Stones come in two weeks later and it's Roy Claire and both crews are with with TFA. And so multiple people are taking my phone number and saying they're going to call me. And the following year, Tom Fieldman Associates gives me a call and they're starting an outdoor staging division.

49:51 So in 1976, the first outdoor staging company division was started and Kevin Wall was an incredible salesman and he landed nationwide tours with Aerosmith and Earth Wind and Fire and a lot of the other TFA acts. Aerosmith was the most interesting because we had the outdoor staging contract, but Bob C had the lighting contract. And so there was a bit of animosity between those two companies at the time. But were there LDS yet? Yes, yeah. In fact, Chicago Beach Boys had two guys that later went into television and became quite famous on their own, just blanket on their names at the moment. But yeah, there were Chicago.

50:43 No, it's similar, though. It'll come to me. But yeah, there were LDS. Yeah. And they were, they were, you know. Not Jeff Ravitz. Nope. Nope. Oh well, moving on. Yeah, but by then touring acts were starting to have their own lighting designers and. Chip docs and leobotomy. Oh geez. Docks and leobotomy. Yeah, they were the they were the two LDS for Chicago Beach Boys. You have an incredible memory for names. You're you're just spitting out these names of all of these people from the 70s.

51:25 Like, you know, that's wild to me. But so by then Axe are touring with with LDS. They're they're specking lighting packages. But I mean, again, how much was there to spec? You didn't have moving lights yet. So it was like, oh. Park ends for days. Park. Hands for days and park hands for days then. So I do outdoor staging exclusively for for 1976 with TFA. And then that winter I was hoping to be an LD and I got hooked up with Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes and, and they were managed by Bruce Springsteen's guitar player Steve Van Zandt, who best Little Steven.

52:20 And so Little Steven manages Southside and they come out and they see a show and, and they bring me, we have a week off and so they bring me out to Springsteen. And so I meet Springsteen's LD and Springsteen's guitar player and they take me to see my first ever Springsteen show in, in winter of 76. And, and I meet this kid who's a year younger than me, some kid from Philadelphia, I'm some kid from Denver. And I see the show that Springsteen puts on And I, I am so humbled that, and I've, and I've shared this story with him and, and, and he knows it.

53:14 Mark Brickman ruined my lighting design career. That was the end of my lighting design. I saw Mark's work and I went, Oh my goodness, I cannot keep up with this. The competition is way stiffer than I thought it was. Wow. And I need to focus on something else. That's wild. What? What was it? What? What blew you away? Brickman's timing really, He he and Bruce and and rabbits and rabbits and Bruce is, is beautiful too. Yeah, but but in the 70s it was just, it had not been seen before. And TFA built a console that was specially designed and built for Brickman and it was the IT was one of the earliest ever multiple scene consoles and push buttons and and Mark could nail the solo. He had incredible timing, probably still does, but you know, I haven't seen his work lately, but just amazing. And it was it was as if you thought you were really good basketball player and you and your high school team had gone to state and you were hot stuff.

54:27 And you go to college and you think you're going to sign up for the team, and you play some Sandlot ball and you're wiped away. And. And it's not until later that you discover Michael Jordan was the guy you were playing against. Oops. And it just, it was the end of it. So I just decided, OK, I love lighting and I want to be the best first electrician I can be. Yeah. Or or something else, but that's not it. I mean, it's, it's an interesting decision to basically, you know, it's like I started as a bass player and, and being a Canadian bass player singer, of course Rush was, you know, yeah, huge to me.

55:11 But you know, I grew up following Getty Lee and following guys like Jocko Pistorius and these incredible bass players. For whatever reason, it didn't cause me to quit, you know, and when I look back, I go, well, jeez, I should have because I wasn't anywhere near as good as those guys. But but it's an interesting approach to say if I can't be the best, I don't want to do it. Well, I didn't even realize that I didn't. It wasn't that conscious. It was. It was. I was. I was. I'm just not good enough. Well, no, it was the first time that I had left. I, I was, I was a big fish in a very small pond.

55:52 There wasn't a, there wasn't a music scene in Denver at the time. There wasn't another lighting guy to compete against. And, and so when I got into the, into the, into the ocean, the first thing I met was a giant shark. And I was like, I'm going to find a different bond. I got to go. I got to, you know, it was just his awesomeness was intimidating. Yeah. And. And. But it's so incredible that then you got to work with him in, in, you know, different scenarios. Or whatever, but I wasn't going to get out of the business. So I just folk. I continued to do outdoor staging and actually became a request item. Some artists would, you know, Fleetwood Mac was going to do a Australian tour and they said, yeah, they'd take the roof, but only if I came with it.

56:37 And so that was a real plus. I worked with Patrick Stansfield and did a bunch of work with him and, and you know, there were, there were other people that just continued to inspire me and I just kept kind of honing my skill. And it was actually after outdoor staging and my association with Fleetwood Mac that I got associated with Obies because again of Fleetwood Mac and went out and crewed with them and worked with Obies in the in the 80s or seven late 70s doing tours for Obie. Yeah, I mean, it's funny though, because when you go back into the 70s and and even early 80s, people were basically production people like it.

57:30 You weren't extremely like right now it's so narrow. You know, it's like I'm a this or I'm at this. Like even on a lighting crew, there could be 10 different positions and the guy in position 9 doesn't take the job from the guy in position 2 because they're very specialized. Each of those jobs is very specialized. But back then it was just like, you're a warm body here do this. You know, you're the sound guy today. Today you're the lighting guy, today you're the, you know, the stage manager or whatever it is. Like you just move around those positions. Yeah, yeah, it was. And and there was a lot of a lot of experimentation. I mean, we were, we were making up as we went. Learn as you go, yeah?

58:14 I mean, we were making it up. That's, you know, some of the earliest shows I did. You know, we were playing in buildings that had never had a concert in them. Before Jesus. Yeah. I mean there's a the the industry we started to talk briefly earlier, it has that that curve to it. You know, there's the early adapters and the artists that that got a hold of it and the IT has matured to the point now where we're almost a commodity. OK. And it's like the other analogy to help you understand would be the early days of flying. So when you had Pan Am and the Pan Am Clipper ships, I mean, it was a big deal to go.

59:03 And even when I was a kid, it was a dress up affair on the one or two occasions I had as a kid to go on a plane and it was a big deal. And you had, you know, you had silverware and you had plated meals and it was an experience. Oh geez, and what a change. Exactly. And, and now you know, I, I mean, now you have spirit. Airlines. I fully expect to be on Spirit or Southwest or one of those company and and see somebody bringing a chicken, chicken on the plane and sticking it in the overhead bin. I mean, we're just about where the Mexican buses are. Oh my God, that's so right. I mean, I've, I drew a line in the sand right above Spirit, you know, so I'll do SW, I'll do JetBlue, I'll do all of those, but I ain't doing Spirit. I just won't fly Spirit.

59:45 You know, it's like, and I tried explaining this to my son, my sons, 20, and he's a race car driver and he does a lot of coaching now. And so people will buy him a plane ticket and send him somewhere. And he's like, yeah, I'm on Spirit. And I'm like, boy. And he goes, what, what, what? And I said, just get there a little early. Bring some extra cash because they're going to charge you for that carry on bag that you've got. And he's like, what do you mean charge me for a carry on? They can't do that. That's got to be against the lot. I'm like, no, no, son, it's not against the law. They could charge you for anything and they will. And he was like, Dad, it just cost me 80 bucks to get checked in with Spirit and the flight was only 47 or something. And I'm like, yeah, welcome aboard, son. OK.

1:00:31 So the commoditization. Yeah. Of the industry. So we had the really close relationships with the artist and, and then, and then he develops a relationship with his designers. I mean, you know, and, and they develop a relationship with the company and they're committed to each other and they grow together and there's such a close relationship. And then once we hit a maturity level, it's a commodity and the accountants are involved and now? There's a lot of layers involved. Yeah, it's. All these different layers and it's all these different bean counters and everybody's trying to nickel and dime. Lighting designers have managers now you know, you can't even talk to the lighting designer.

1:01:18 You got to go to his manager. Right. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. Thank you, Brokaw. Yeah, exactly. He made a nice. Well, he went through Obi's too, right? For a little while. He's been a lot of different things. Yeah. But I mean, he's, I think he's the original lighting designer agent. Absolutely. I think he's the only. I don't know any other ones. Yeah, yeah, I don't. Know I was approached by a couple designers but never got into it. Yeah, yeah. No, Brokaw's done a really great job with that and he's a good guy. I'm very good friends with Michael and, and very grateful for that friendship. And, and, but he does a really great job.

1:01:59 And I've actually given him a couple of clients who, and I won't mention names, but there's one in particular who during COVID was going through a hell of a time and, and he helped him get back on his feet. He got him some new artists. He got him into some really great opportunities. And he increased his money with artists that he had been working with for 1520 years. He's making more money from them now than he was. So speaks loudly for what a good manager can do for you. Absolutely. There are some bad ones, but you know, you, you talk about commoditization. I had a conversation yesterday with somebody about LED screens. You know, it's become such a huge part of any show or tour or whatever.

1:02:47 And not that long ago, you were able to rent AA tile that cost you anywhere from, you know, 1500 to $2500 if you were renting it for 600 bucks. That same tile today is 50, you know, and dropping still, you know. And it's obsolete by the time you took delivery. Yeah, because it goes from, you know, 4.9 to 4.5 to 4.2 to 3.9 and you know, while the tour is happening, it drops from 3.9 to now everybody wants 2.9 mil and it's like, Jesus, what's going on here? I mean, there's obviously a point, you know, where, where you're not going to go beyond.

1:03:32 And I think it's at 1.9 is pretty standard right now. As far as the tightest resolution, I don't see it getting much below that because the LED chips need some room to cool as well. Like you can't just put them all touching each other. You know it's you need some space in there, but. As a as a production manager, I always use kind of a a rule of thumb that whatever the the mill is, in order to get resolution, I turn that into meters. So. That is what it is, yeah. If it's 1.9, I figure you know, you're 2 meters away from it, so, so your LED, I mean, there's no audience member sitting closer than six feet to an LED, I mean. That's if you want to watch the Super Bowl in your house on a 50 foot screen, you know, OK, put in a 1.9 mil wall.

1:04:17 But I mean, you don't need that in a show, that's for sure. Like I think I I think who was I talking to that said they're out with this massive screen and it's 2.9 mil and I'm like, why? You know why it's so much more expensive. It's more labor intensive and you know, I heard AI don't know if I want to repeat it. I might get in trouble for repeating it. So I won't repeat it. But I heard a story about a a particular artist. Was it lunchtime already? No, I heard about a particular artist touring with an LED screen that was basically specially designed to put speakers behind it.

1:04:59 And when they replaced that vendor who had specially designed the screen to have the speakers behind it, they just went and got a a very tight resolution screen that hadn't been specially designed. And what's happening is they've had to turn up the sound more to get the sound through that screen right. And they're blowing the screen apart. Yeah, it's not audio. It's not audio transparent. No, it's not audio transparent and, and, but you know, the more you commoditize things, the more you're going to run into situations like that. You know, there is still space for specialized product I guess. I'm really curious to see what what happens in the, in the future of, of, of our business and, and as companies.

1:05:49 I mean, I'm sure, you know, as a business owner, you're familiar with the, with the cycle that happens. You know, the, the first owner, the, the guy who, who bootstraps the company, you know, the Roy and Jean Claire, you know, they bootstrap the company and the next generation, you know, comes along and they've got sincere respect and understand what it took for the parents to bring up that company. And, and traditionally speaking, business advisors will always caution you about a family business when it gets to that third generation, because now he can appreciate what grandpa did, but he saw how much work it was for dad and are they going to be able to continue the company? Yeah, it's, that's an interesting topic. I have AI have a friend who was the 4th generation owner of a particular company.

1:06:51 And I won't tell you who or anything cuz I don't want to get anybody in trouble. But during COVID, he came to me and he said, you know, I'm in a bit of trouble here. I need to do some stuff, I need to make a deal. Can you help? And I got involved a little bit and you know, one of the the themes that he presented to me, which I had never thought of before, but he said the problem with being a fourth generation company is you don't want to be the one who screwed it up. Right. You know, when you're in a fourth generation ownership position and you're now the CEO of the family business, basically, you don't want to be the one that's remembered as having lost the company or screwed it up, right?

1:07:33 And that's a lot of pressure. But but in our industry, we're coming to that point. We need that third and 4th generation, so. So our foundational companies, many of which have already been absorbed. Yeah. I mean, you know, Claire has already bought electric, you know. Look at tape. Just got bought again by Goldman Sachs. Just bought tape last week I think it was announced. Or two. Weeks ago, yeah. And so that's the other thing that you see because these private equity groups are set up in in sort of stages or sizes. So you're going to get private equity company one who's really good at zero to 100 million in in sales and then you've got private equity too who their sweet spot is 100 to 250. Then you've got 250 to 505 hundred to a billion, etcetera. And So what they do is they built, they buy it, you know, they buy a $50 million company, they grow it to 120 million and then they sell it to that private equity group that's really good at taking it from 100 to 250. And then they sell it to the guys who take it from 2:50 to 500.

1:08:45 And I don't know that those are good for our industry. I don't know that they're good for the people inside those companies necessarily. The, the thing that I saw happen the first round of those things was the equity, the, the private equity companies, the investor companies saw cash flow and, and they had no idea how much sweat equity the owner was putting into it because he loved the business. And, and loving the business was what got most of us into this. And, and, and I, I was amazed. I mean, it was, it was so much fun. I would have done it for free.

1:09:30 And I was amazed when somebody paid me. That's an interesting concept because none of us are really here for the money because we'd be doing something else if we. Were but. They are here for the. Money. They are for the money. So and that doesn't make them bad, by the way, that's what they do right? But but it's an interesting concept I. Never thought of it that way. Generational, you know, of a corporate identity and a corporate growth. And when we hit that maturity and, and it's going to be interesting for me to be healthy long enough to watch, you know, through your podcast and industry, you know, whatever insiders I still talk to, to see where it goes. Because because it was, it was built by people that loved it. Passion, the passion.

1:10:19 And, and, and it's, it's that same, it's that classic old joke about the kid who's working, picking up the elephant slop. OK, he works for the circus and he's picking up the, the, the elephant droppings and it's hot and it's muggy and these things stink. And he hates his job. And his friend comes in and says, well, why don't you quit? And he says, I can't, I can't. I can't give up showbiz. That's so funny. That is so funny. And and that's where we started. That's where you started. That's where I started. That's where Gene and Roy started. That's where that's where, you know, Obie started, that's where, you know, Robert Ross started, that's where, you know, Rickman started.

1:11:02 That's where, you know, we just, we just loved it. And it was Rock'n'roll and it was. And it was sex and drugs and Rock'n'roll and the whole recruiting poster we felt we went right in for. It, you're right, yeah. But the whole industry is at a weird inflection point right now because it the, the private equity is, is problematic in a sense because it does go against that whole passion thing. But it's a necessity because these damn shows just keep getting bigger and bigger and more expensive and harder to do and everything else. And, and, and I know we're, we've been on for a while. And and there's there's. We're not in any hurry unless your lunch is sitting on the table.

1:11:44 No, no, but there are there's a few things I want to make sure that that I at least get to say sure. And and by the way, caveat on everything I have said, because it's only my memory. So it's not fact, it's just my memory, but the, the passion that starts an industry can only go so far. OK. And, and those the, the, the early originators, the you know, Huntley, Christie and and you know. He's gone. Pretty far.

1:12:25 Bob Stern, Bob C, Tom Fields, you know, Bill McManus, you know, Robert Roth, you know, Dave Chadon, you know all these guys that were just there. You know, Stan Miller, as I mentioned before, you know, has so much passion, so much desire, and it suffers in translation. And so now we've got they, they, they aged out, died, sold their companies, whatever, sent it to the next generation and, and the capitals come in and it's necessary. And like you said, it's necessary for the size of the artists that are working and the doors that are expected of them. And I'm concerned about the next level of, for lack of a better term, roadie travelling technician, because many of them see this as a job and an opportunity to make money. And it is and it's necessary.

1:13:37 But if they don't have that same passion and commitment to excellence, will it lead to complacency? Will we, will it lead to, to, to either lack of innovation which we can deal with, but but will it lead to accidents because they didn't have the same commitment? I think both have already happened. You know, I think in a sense we're already there. Like those things have already happened. Here's here's where I say there's hope. It's because I talk to young people in our industry daily, all day. I've had lots of them on the podcast as well. And there are some extremely talented up and coming audio engineers, lighting designers, even production managers, you know, just all jobs in our industry. There are a lot of really smart and talented young people coming up.

1:14:44 My bigger concern is who's running the companies? You know, when, when private equity brings in a CEO to run a company from outside the industry, this is where I think it really becomes problematic. And I've talked to some of these people like I remember I had AI was brought in as a consultant with a private equity and the CEO that they were bringing into a company. And I sat and talked to them for three or four hours and they were convinced that equipment gear in our industry was the exact same model as the rental car industry. So they were going to follow the rental car industry. And I mean the thing about the rental car industry is Hertz goes out and buys 1000 cars at a discounted price. So let's say it's a a $50,000 car. They're paying 37,000.

1:15:34 Buying them directly from Ford through some fleet service program. They buy 1000 of them for 37,000, they run the shit out of them for a year and then they sell them for 45,000 and or 42,000 or whatever it is. But they're selling it for more than they paid for it. In our industry that is non existent that does not happen. So you buy the product. Let's say you buy a light fixture for $10,000. You rent it out for a year. You've made 3000 or $4000. You now sell it for four or $5000. The math is completely different than the car rental industry. And trying to explain this to people who are, you know, Wharton School of Finance people or just really, really smart Wall Street folks, they don't understand our industry. They just don't get it.

1:16:28 It's weird. And I agree, it is weird. But. It is what it is. So the the the the program you just described sound like Michael Cannon's view. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it, it's similar. But the problem is even Michael Cannon struggling it with it now, because Michael Cannon's view came from Bob Cannon, and Bob Cannon would buy Cyber Lights for $5000. He'd rent them for exactly 2 years and at exactly 2 years, he put them up for sale. He'd sell them for $5000 used. It was exactly the same as the car rental business back then. But he'd make seven, $8000 renting them for those two years, $10,000.

1:17:11 But the math today is totally different. So that moving light today is 10 or $12,000. The rent is half of what you were getting paid for a cyber light. And you know, the used price is is garbage. You know, because product is just aging out so quickly now. And there's just so much of it. And it is commoditized now that you know moving lights aren't special anymore. No, it's that commoditization. It's that when, when I was with Obi's, you know, and I was trying to compete with somebody, I was explaining myself to, you know, versus some other company and I was trying to convince them that we were a boutique lighting company. We were here to service your unique needs and we want to make you know, this too are yours. We don't, we don't have, you know, every fixture out there in our inventory, but we can get every fixture out there. Yeah.

1:18:05 You know, and I modeled a lot of things with the Obies that other companies would get later, but we would sub rent a lot of stuff. You know, Mike, David and I would talk and it was like, no, let's not buy that. You know, let's rent all that stuff. You know, let's, let's rent the stuff that we don't have to have, but let's own the stuff that isn't going to depreciate, that isn't going to, you know, need to be turned over constantly. Infrastructure. Buy the infrastructure, rent the other stuff. You know exactly. And, and, and now with, with four Wall and Main Light and a couple other companies, it's really facilitated that model. So hopefully the future of our industry goes back to being a service provider.

1:18:48 You know, how can I, how can I add value to this, you know, relationship and this this truckload of stuff. How do I add value to that? Well, and that's starting to go away because, you know, I had a conversation this morning and again, I won't mention names because it was a fairly private conversation, but he was talking about a particular tour, a large tour that is happening. And he's done the tour for years. He's got 30-40 year relationships with the the team that he's been working with on the tour, the manager, etcetera. And suddenly they put some new managers in and these people are all like breaching contracts and beating you up on your pricing and just grinding the hell out of you and all this stuff. And I see that happening more and more now. So that relationship that you had with this Fleetwood Mac that you've been working with for the last 25 years, suddenly they've put another layer of managers between them and and the vendors and those partnerships are less meaningful. Right, Sadly and that's and that's a real challenge and and there's only a few people I know that are still in the business that have four years experience.

1:20:01 So I probably know who you were talking with earlier today, but but those that that is very challenging it's. It's a real interesting time in our industry as we hit this maturity. I had the pleasure of of seeing a an exhibit at an Art Museum that was the earliest of cars and they were made by carriage makers. And, and this is before we had, you know, Ford and a model, you know, and an assembly line and, and the craftsmanship that went into some of these early things. They were gorgeous, You know, whether it was a, you know, early Duesenberg or, you know, whatever, but but they were so beautiful and they were and and that's was the birth of that industry.

1:20:54 And, and then it as it matures, as it matures, as it matures, as it matures, some of the artistry disappears. Not completely gone. I mean, there's still some beautifully designed automobiles out there. But but you, you know, the maturity is, is such that you're you're now appealing to a mass audience. You can't, you know, you know, when you're making your first coach, it is for the king or the queen. And it's an amazing automobile. I mean, yeah, we're we're talking Downton Abbey era kind of things. And it's handcrafted and it's beautiful And, and the, and the first, you know, the first very lights were amazing and, and rocked the world. And we shouldn't forget Morpheus. And what what of course, what Richardson was doing before the rest of the people even knew what movie lights were. He had hand commands and those things. And I think, I think Zeb Cochran might have even been involved with some of that.

1:21:49 It was. It. Was and, and those early innovators and, and just that, that craftsmanship and then as it becomes mass appeal, everything becomes a little bit more generic and interchangeable. Made in the Acme factory in China now. So what does that tell you? You know what I mean? Like now they're nothing but a brand. We're just a brand. And I'm sure that people from Verilight would argue that, you know, they're still an innovator. And they are. I mean, yeah, they've got great engineers and great people and everything else. But you know, something gets lost in that translation. I think it, it's funny because the house that I'm sitting in now, I'm up in Canada and in the Canadian Rocky Mountains and I, I had this house built in 2005. And at the same time, I was building a house in South Florida in a very mature market from a construction standpoint, the, the quality of construction and the quality of craftsmanship and the passion here in Canada versus what was in Florida at the time.

1:23:00 So in Florida you had a lot of, you know, Spanish speaking folks that some were legal, some weren't legal. You'd find beer cans and cigarettes all over the place. If you walk through the house, you know, when they were gone for the day or whatever, shoddy stuff, shoddy work left and right, like let's just get it done. It's time to go drinking, you know, let's get out of here. Whereas here you still had all these European Craftsman, like, you know, I was watching my fireplace being built here by a European Mason and you know, I was, I was blown away. I was like, wow, the craftsmanship is incredible. The wood was just perfect. Everything was done so nicely.

1:23:42 So, you know, I saw that first hand mature market that's very competitive versus a an older school market that's a lot less competitive. You have a few quality builders and that's it. Everybody else is gone. Nobody's in this business. But yeah, you know, we're not going to stop it. It's just like AII talk a lot about AI on my podcast. It's coming, it's here. You know, we're not going to stop it. We just have to figure out how to embrace it and use it so that it doesn't, you know, use us. I. Guess the I'm not I'm not into AI mean I'm not a you're. Not. Studying AI, I'm aware of it.

1:24:22 I've read some articles on a deception. The the take away for me on that would be just like you said, people need to learn to use it so that it doesn't use you. But one of the things that I've always thought was important to teaching people you know, is you need to manage your manager. OK. Whatever position you are in an organization, you need to be able to manage your manager. You need to know what his expectations are. When you're dealing with a client, you're trying to manage your client. You need to manage their expectations and what they expected you.

1:25:05 If I was a designer, I would be really I would. I would want to be particularly close to my client so that they continued to see my value and not be able to replace me with a. Collaborator, not a button presser. Right. So yeah, so the the guy that is going to go to AI to design his website is obviously has no sees no value in the designer of his website. Or the designer has has failed to to sometimes the designers failed to show that value, you know, like I've dealt with some shitty website designers.

1:25:47 Trust me. And some of these people, it's just like if I could replace you with AII would do that today, you know? But then there are. Others where you're like, I can't imagine doing this without you. I, I was, I was on a panel one time back when I was representing Obie's at one of those, you know, trade things. And somebody from the audience said, what do you do when somebody steals a client? And I said, I said, I don't think I've ever had anyone steal a client. I've lost a few because I didn't pay them enough attention. Someone got them, but nobody stole it from me. And they inherited. You know, and, and so I think with AI you need to be, you know, cautious of that. You need to not let AI, they can't steal it from you but but make sure that you're adding enough value to every relationship you're in to.

1:26:42 So that's not an option. So. It's not an option. You should only be adding value to every relationship. I mean you. This is always a give and take thing. I mean I need to add value to your conversation to justify you having me on the podcast. I've got to add value to this relationship. Yeah. And and I agree with you And, and to people in our industry. I think one of the things that that I would like to impart if they stayed this long to watch this whole thing is a a need for a true North star that keeps you going. OK. You need to know what motivates you to work this hard trying to, you know, just to sleep on a bus and to work 16 hour days. And you have to have a focal point. And, and for me, I, I was taught this by, by my, you know, one of my, one of my earlier jobs when I worked with Gary Faye as a promoter.

1:27:40 It's the audience. And I've always thought that no matter what I did in this industry, I worked for the kid in the seat. OK, That was the only person that brought original money into the system. It passes through a lot of greasy fingers before it gets to me. But I actually work for the kid in the seat. And, and that person, that couple that saved their money and bought a three hour vacation, they didn't go to Cancun. They couldn't go to France. But for three hours, they bought a ticket to see Willie Nelson tonight, Fleetwood Mac tonight, insert name here. That for them is going to be a three hour window of time that they think about nothing else.

1:28:27 It's going to be a total wonderful experience and everything we do has to contribute to that. I completely. Agree with you. I've given the same lecture to to ticket takers. It's like that from the time they enter that venue until the time they leave. This is their moment and we're all part of that experience for them and we need to make it as good as possible. And tomorrow when that person is back at his job, he does it a little bit better. He doesn't dent my trash can. He doesn't, he doesn't cut me off at the light because he feels a little bit better about himself because he had that moment. And, and we get to give that the entertainment industry is a is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to speak into people's lives, to give them something that that they can't get anywhere else.

1:29:16 And, and even though we're behind the scenes and we're the guy that that picks up the four out and loads the cable cases, it's still an integral part of that experience. You know, Scott, that's such an important. Such an important thought and, and you know, The thing is, if you think about it outside of like getting married, your first child or all of your children being born, maybe building your first home or whatever. One of the things you remember most is when I saw Aerosmith in 1976 or when I went and saw ACDC in 1982 and this and this and this happened. Very vivid, very clear memories, unless you're on acid, of course, but very clear memories of these these events and, and your job is to make that the most incredible experience of their life. Like not, oh, the sound kept squealing and my ears hurt so I had to leave.

1:30:12 Or, you know, a if something fell on the stage and they had to end early or whatever. Like, you want to create an incredible memory for those people because I have so many friends who can remember every concert they ever went to and they could sit and tell you about it in detail. That sporting events are another one where, you know, people are going to remember all that pass he threw at the end of the game with two seconds left, you know, I mean, so it's such a great point. I love that. And we get to be, you know, we get to be a part of that. And and I'm, you know, I'm a believer that that someday, you know, in heaven, somebody's going to come up to me and say, hey, I was there. Thank you. That's so cool. You know, a lot of my work was was was with Christian artists and I just imagine that happening and you know, but it but even if it even if that part of it doesn't happen, the fact that we made someone's life better today. Yeah, it's so cool.

1:31:10 That's enough. That's enough to justify living. I mean, it's enough to justify 52 year career. It's it, it's what, you know, put my kids through school and allows me to have a nice happy retirement. And it was all. It was all. Based on one night at a time, one kid at a time, how can I make their life better tonight? Good on you. What a great place to end. Thank you so much for taking the time today, Scott. I appreciate it. A. Whole bunch. All right, my friend, enjoy your retirement. Thank you.