#253 - Paul Vincent

1
00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,080
Hello there, and thanks for
joining me today for Gears of

2
00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,240
Gear Episode 253.
I just finished recording the

3
00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,160
podcast about probably 30
minutes ago.

4
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:15,880
And again, thank you so much to
our sponsors on this podcast.

5
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,440
Today was Ultimate Support Act
Entertainment and Gear Source.

6
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,280
And so I recorded this with Paul
Vincent.

7
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:30,680
Paul was in the industry since
the mid 70s and has such a great

8
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,680
story to tell.
I didn't know that his parents

9
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,480
were both enacting and I also
didn't know that it took him 10

10
00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:40,360
years to sell his business.
So hearing his multiple stories

11
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,240
discussing how complicated that
was, how how difficult it was to

12
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,360
sell a business, and then
ultimately dealing with private

13
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,760
equity companies, what that's
like sort of the good and bad of

14
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,160
private equity.
And just a story from somebody

15
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,520
who who is a very good
storyteller.

16
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:03,160
So I hope you like it.
Hello and thanks for coming to

17
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,600
episode #253 of Geezers of Gear.
Today's podcast is brought to

18
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,080
you by Ultimate Support Systems,
a part of ACT Entertainment.

19
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,040
For over 45 years, Ultimate
Support Systems has provided

20
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,960
musicians with unique Support
Solutions just like this one

21
00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:22,680
that's holding my microphone
right now that I happen to love.

22
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,720
These are crafted with
unparalleled innovation and

23
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,400
quality.
Ultimate Support has always been

24
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,280
determined to invent, design and
manufacture the smartest Support

25
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,000
Solutions and musical
accessories in the music

26
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,760
industry, and that commitment to
innovation continues to this

27
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,560
day.
Be sure to visit

28
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,720
ultimatesupport.com where you
can learn all about their

29
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,400
solutions for content creators,
touring musicians, recording

30
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,960
studios and more.
From acoustic treatment to best

31
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,480
in class speaker stands,
Ultimate Support has premium

32
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,960
accessories that you can count
on.

33
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,360
And today's podcast is also
brought to you by Gear Source.

34
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,360
Founded in 2002 with an
ambitious mission to support

35
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,120
live events, businesses buy and
sell gear globally.

36
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,600
Since that time, the company has
transacted in more than 100

37
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,240
countries, selling 1/4 billion
dollars in sound, lighting,

38
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,920
staging and video gear.
Gearsource continues to evolve

39
00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:29,280
the platform for massive global
growth, enabling localized

40
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,520
currencies, payments held in
escrow to protect buyers and

41
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,040
sellers, AI powered logistics
behind a new global logistics

42
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,800
brand, and much more.
Throughout 2024 and beyond, the

43
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,280
company will continue to grow
its toolbox for the benefit of

44
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,840
users worldwide.
So why not take full control

45
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,400
over your gear with a visit to
gearsource.com today?

46
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,160
Hello and welcome back to Geese
of Gear.

47
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,080
Believe it or not, I don't
actually have much to talk about

48
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,640
today on our intro.
I will tell you that one of our

49
00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:41,160
great sponsors, Row Visual, is
involved with the I would call

50
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,680
it soccer, but all of you
smarter than me.

51
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,920
People would call it football,
but UEFA, which stands for I'm

52
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,000
not sure what EU is, but I'm
sure it's European Football

53
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000
Association.
EU might be united.

54
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:03,960
I don't know what it is, but
UEFA UEFA 2024 live broadcasts

55
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:09,120
have been upgraded by using Row
Visual and I'm not sure exactly

56
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,920
what it is.
I was looking through the

57
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:16,200
article trying to figure out
exactly what their part was, but

58
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,360
it looks like a lot of really
cool stuff is going on.

59
00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:25,480
Row has provided not only the
backdrop, but I believe also the

60
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:31,320
floor, if I have this correct.
But anyways, it looks cool.

61
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:39,040
It's there's a shiny floor, a
shiny LED floor, and just a lot

62
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,320
going on.
So yeah, good on row.

63
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,080
I mean, this is beautiful.
I actually thought that this

64
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,920
broadcast was being done with
all these buildings and stuff in

65
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,160
the background.
It's just so well done when you

66
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:57,560
look at the images, like it's
sort of a surround LED screen

67
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,080
that looks like a cityscape at
different parts of the day

68
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,240
depending on when the broadcast
is.

69
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,280
And then the floor might show
things like what teams are

70
00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:10,200
playing, a score, whatever.
Super cool.

71
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,680
So check that out if you can.
I think Rowe has it published on

72
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,120
their website.
Maybe Sarah can provide a link

73
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,680
to it in the final recording.
And of course, back to my

74
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,280
favorite topic, which is
currently AI.

75
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,480
There's a lot going on.
You know, I, I didn't actually

76
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,880
grab any articles to talk to you
about today, but one that I've

77
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,440
been following, Google has
something and I already forget

78
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,400
what it's called.
It's called like something DJ or

79
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,280
music something.
I apologize, I read it yesterday

80
00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,880
and I meant to keep a copy of
the article, but it's basically

81
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:53,440
DJ software that it's sort of
like DJ version of Muzak where

82
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,680
you can just put in a few
things.

83
00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,000
Like I want something that's 108
beats per minute.

84
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:07,520
I want it to be sort of a, you
know, hip hop, blah, blah, blah.

85
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,520
Like I don't know what terms
these DJs are using to explain

86
00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,960
their music these days, but you
know, basically you put in the

87
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,400
vibe that you want what
instruments you might want.

88
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,560
Like I want bass, drums and
piano in this song and, and

89
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,800
it'll spit out a a beat for you
that has all of those elements

90
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,560
in it.
It's not perfect, but it's

91
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,960
pretty darn good.
And, and then there's another

92
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,640
version of it where you can
tweak it, where you can slide

93
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,560
faders, more hip hop, more bass,
more drums.

94
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,440
And it'll, you know, the AI will
tweak that, that response back.

95
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,120
So, you know, again, like
there's all kinds of screaming

96
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,720
going on over this new Google
product, which I guess is part

97
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:55,960
of their new Gemini AI system.
But you know, it's not meant to

98
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,440
replace DJ's.
I guess at the lowest end, if

99
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,560
you talk about your lowest level
DJ, somebody who's in a car

100
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,640
dealership DJ ING because
they're having a 4th of July

101
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,960
sale in the dealership and he's
just putting together a mix of

102
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,560
songs that can easily be
replaced.

103
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,440
But that could also be replaced
by, you know, Apple Music or

104
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,800
Spotify or any of the systems
have have a setup that will mix

105
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,960
music for you and put together
like songs and stuff.

106
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,880
This is this is more than that.
Like this actually creates songs

107
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,000
based on what it is you want.
So this is geared more towards

108
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,960
like performance DJs, DJs who
are going out and doing

109
00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,760
festivals and stuff like that.
I don't think it's all the way

110
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,240
there yet for the real
professional folks, guys, girls,

111
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:50,440
but it does seem promising.
And you know, so I actually saw,

112
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,960
I think it was CNET had a video
of a New York DJ called I

113
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,480
believe it's Nas or Paz or
something.

114
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,680
Sorry if everyone's laughing at
me right now.

115
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,760
Not a DJ guy.
But anyways, he, he was

116
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,800
reviewing the system and he had
some very high grades on certain

117
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,400
parts of it and then just beat
the hell out of it on other

118
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,000
parts.
But the system claims not to be

119
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,320
trying to replace DJs
necessarily, but to augment and

120
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,240
to support DJs and make their
job easier, allow them to create

121
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,400
music more and leave sort of the
boring stuff to to the AI.

122
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,360
However, it oversteps that
because it's actually creating

123
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,679
the music too.
So I don't know if that's what

124
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,240
it intends to do or if that's
what its main function is, but

125
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,120
it is creating music and it is
putting together these beats and

126
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,240
these mixes.
And so very interesting.

127
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,520
And really that's all I got for
you on on AI stuff today.

128
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,480
I, I just didn't do a lot of
research.

129
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,960
It's been a crazy busy week.
And so there you have it.

130
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,920
So today's guest is someone that
I think most of you will know.

131
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,160
Paul Vincent is the founder or
was the founder in 1978 of

132
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,240
Vincent Lighting Systems which
sells and services theater,

133
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,920
television and architectural
lighting and rigging systems and

134
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,640
related equipment.
I'm sure most of you know that

135
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,240
Vincent Lighting Systems also
provides an extensive rental

136
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800
inventory, production and
rigging services and in stock

137
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,360
theatrical supplies.
Paul sold the company to

138
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,920
Cleveland based Canterbury
Capital in 2017 and retired from

139
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:33,200
the business in 2019 after a
successful transition to their

140
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,720
new leadership.
Paul has presented numerous

141
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,360
lighting management and business
workshops and seminars over the

142
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:44,120
past 45 years to students and
users, designers, architects,

143
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,160
electrical engineers and
electrical contractors.

144
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,480
So please join me and welcome
Paul Vincent to the podcast.

145
00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,200
Hi, Paul.
Hi, Marcel, how you been?

146
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,480
I've been OK.
I've been, I'm up in Canada so

147
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,480
I'm freezing to death.
And it's, it's very weird.

148
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:11,080
Like June 20th we got snow.
We had snow on the ground like

149
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,480
it, it wasn't 2 feet of snow.
It was maybe 1/4 of an inch of

150
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,480
snow.
But we had big flakes of snow

151
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,840
blowing through the air and
landing on the ground and, and

152
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,240
surviving.
And you know, it's been a weird

153
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,040
year in Canada.
I wasn't here.

154
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,120
I just got here early June, but
they didn't really have a very

155
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,520
cold winter at all.
Skiing was terrible.

156
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,600
They didn't get a lot of snow
until March.

157
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,680
Like March is basically when
winter started and they just got

158
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,720
piles of snow and cold weather
and everything else.

159
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,080
So it's kind of delayed the
start of summer too, which is,

160
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,240
which is very interesting.
But, you know, I grew up up

161
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,320
here, so I know that, you know,
don't get too friendly with the

162
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,160
weather because it's about to
change very dramatically, you

163
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,760
know?
So like right now, you know,

164
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,400
this morning we had a fire going
because it was in the high 30s.

165
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,120
And tomorrow it's, I think going
up to 78 or something.

166
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,920
So just weird weird.
Stuff.

167
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,680
Well, I'm on the southern shore
of Lake Erie in Ashtabula, OH,

168
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,840
which is a small city about 50
miles from Cleveland.

169
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,160
I grew up in Cleveland
originally, and so I've been on

170
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,920
the shores of Lake Erie really
my whole life.

171
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,360
And today it's going up to 88.
And we're supposed to, I'm

172
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,120
hoping we got a lot in the
garden.

173
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,080
So I'm hoping that it rains
later and I don't have the

174
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,400
water.
Well, so that's the other thing

175
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,200
up here is, you know, there's
everyone's complaining, it's

176
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,280
just been raining all the time
because literally pretty much

177
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,000
every day, almost every day
we're getting some rain and it's

178
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000
going to start going away over
the next few days.

179
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,800
But what that's done is it's
pretty much completely negated

180
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,320
forest fires for this summer.
And so some summers I'll come up

181
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,720
here and you got to leave your
windows closed because there's

182
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,800
just so much smoke outside, not
to mention, you know, the damage

183
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,160
to houses or property or
whatever.

184
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,240
But I'm just talking from a
comfort level, you know,

185
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,000
breathing this air and it's,
it's not good at all.

186
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,440
And so this year, I think we're
going to have a pretty knock on

187
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,360
my wooden head, you know, a mild
fire season, hopefully as a

188
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,960
result of all the rain.
Well, we're familiar with your

189
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,000
fires because we get the smoke
coming down here.

190
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,520
Yeah.
Was it last year or the year

191
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,280
before where like Chicago had to
close the airport and stuff?

192
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:44,040
Right, right.
It was, I think both years.

193
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,640
Yeah, yeah, it was really.
And The funny thing was like

194
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,480
last year, we didn't get any of
it here.

195
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,400
The year before was pretty bad
up here.

196
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,760
But yeah, last year it just kind
of blew right by us to you guys.

197
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,960
And New York was a real problem
even.

198
00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,120
Yes.
So yeah, it's crazy.

199
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,760
I I don't know, you know, we
were, we were right before we

200
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,280
started talking or recording.
Anyways, you were telling me

201
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,040
about a book you're reading
right now about, about, you

202
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,600
know, climate change or, or
whatever everyone wants to call

203
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,400
it this week.
But what?

204
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,280
What is that book?
It's called the Ministry for the

205
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:26,880
Future and it's it's set
probably between 10 and 20 years

206
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,200
from now.
And the the few, the agency is

207
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,560
part of the UN and it's located
in Switzerland in Zurich.

208
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,640
And it's about the woman who
runs the agency.

209
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,960
And then it's about the topic is
mostly about climate change.

210
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,120
And climate change shouldn't be
confused with global warming.

211
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,640
It's true that the globe is
warming.

212
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,840
At least that's what I think.
And ocean temperatures are

213
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,800
rising.
But climate change can also be,

214
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,280
as you said, forest fires.
Forest fires because people did

215
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,480
not, the native peoples were not
allowed to continue to burn the

216
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,160
brush that needed to be burned.
And now they've started, you

217
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,480
know, doing some of that.
And the question that is posed

218
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,240
in this book is, is it too late
or is it not too late?

219
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:25,680
And I'm on chapter 78 and and we
don't know yet.

220
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,680
We know that it's bad.
For example, 20 million people

221
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,640
die in India because of heat
exposure.

222
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:38,000
Old, young, a wide range.
And one of the protagonists or

223
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,400
maybe hero, I don't know yet,
we'll see in the book is a young

224
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,440
American who went to India in
order to help people.

225
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,400
And he sees everyone dying
around him, and the power is out

226
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,240
for the entire country. 20
million people ultimately die.

227
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,000
And somehow he's the only person
that survives in his town.

228
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,360
And he ends up actually in
Switzerland.

229
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,520
And he has this encounter with
the head of this agency.

230
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,200
It's pretty fascinating.
Wow, how?

231
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,760
How do you find this book?
Seth Godin who does a blog and

232
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,320
and I read his blog most every
day.

233
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,120
Some days it's really weird and
some days it's just so spot on.

234
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,320
And I share it with my team in
my company, you know, a Side

235
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,680
Story.
So I probably started following

236
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,040
Seth Godin, I'm guessing before
you did, just because I started

237
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,560
following him in like 2000.
And so a very funny story.

238
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,240
So when I left the last company
where I was sort of employed, I

239
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,080
was a minority owner, but there
was a board and a management

240
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:54,120
team above me.
But when I left that company in

241
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,000
2001, I wasn't sure what I was
going to do next, but I knew I

242
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,760
was going to do something on
completely on my own.

243
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,000
Finally, I, I was just too
entrepreneurial to be inside

244
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,600
these companies.
And I also didn't want to just

245
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,720
go work for another moving light
manufacturer, which I had done

246
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:15,560
for 20 years.
And so I, I don't even remember

247
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,480
how I learned about it, but
there was this CD set with a

248
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,440
really cheesy name like making
money on the Internet or

249
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,560
something like that.
And it was Seth Godin.

250
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,080
And I think by that time I had
been reading his newsletter

251
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360
because he had a, an e-mail list
and a newsletter.

252
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,120
And I think I was on his
newsletter and it announced this

253
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,280
CD set.
And I bought the CD set.

254
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,160
And at the time I lived on a
golf course and I had a pool in

255
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,240
my backyard.
So I'd sit out there and listen

256
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,680
to these CDs and I went through
it twice.

257
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,280
And so really what I knew was
that I wanted an Internet

258
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,640
company.
I wanted something, I wanted a

259
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,880
remote company.
And remote companies didn't

260
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,400
exist at the time.
But by then I had a place up in

261
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,480
Canada where I'm from, and I
lived in Florida where my

262
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,760
business was based.
But I wanted to be able to be

263
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,400
back and forth without it
causing any disruption

264
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,359
whatsoever.
And in my mind, I was starting

265
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,520
to create a scenario for a
remote Internet company

266
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,880
basically.
And so listen to the CD set and

267
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:26,240
he tells this story of a a
particular bird in in Africa

268
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:31,240
that rhinos or hippopotamuses, I
can't remember which one it was,

269
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,280
but one of them sits in the
water with their mouth open.

270
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,960
The bird flies in their mouth
and eats all of the stuff out of

271
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,880
the tea, out of its teeth and
cleans its teeth.

272
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,480
And the moral of the story is,
you know, the hippo ended up

273
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,480
with clean teeth and the bird
lived off of that food, you

274
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,120
know, out of his teeth, as
disgusting as that is.

275
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,880
And but what he was suggesting
is what you need to do is create

276
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,320
a business where you're taking a
very small amount from lots of

277
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,280
different sources, but something
that's not a meaningful amount

278
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,840
from them.
And that becomes your food.

279
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,480
And to them it's it's
meaningless.

280
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,240
But you're providing them a
service which is quite generic

281
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,120
as an idea.
But immediately I saw that as

282
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,920
manufacturers in our industry
have have a problem that many of

283
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,440
them don't even see coming yet.
And part of this was based on my

284
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,720
concept that technology was
suddenly moving much more

285
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,240
quickly than it had been in the
past, especially automated

286
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,920
lighting.
Automated lighting was now going

287
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,880
from version one to two to three
to four very quickly.

288
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,720
You know, because you were on
the painful side of it where you

289
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,960
had to keep up with this in your
inventory.

290
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:51,600
And but manufacturers and
distributors that I had worked

291
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,680
for and that I was very
knowledgeable about, we're not

292
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,280
recognizing this pattern.
And what was happening is

293
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,600
inventory was get getting pushed
further back on their shelf

294
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,960
while the new models were coming
in and going in front of it.

295
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,560
Because what do sales teams love
to do?

296
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,000
They love to call their
customers and say we've got a

297
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,800
new thing.
You know, it's got a new widget

298
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,760
and and new features.
You know, sales people, and I've

299
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,200
been one all my life, are
generally pretty lazy.

300
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,000
We'll go to the lowest hanging
fruit.

301
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,280
We'll use the easiest pitch we
possibly can to get the order.

302
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,520
And so that's usually the
latest, greatest stuff.

303
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,960
It's hard to motivate a sales
team to take care of your last

304
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,560
year's inventory problems unless
you incentivize them and say

305
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,040
I'll pay you all the profit on
the sale or something.

306
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,480
Well, at the.
Same time, you know, if you can

307
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,360
get a customer to say yes the
first time, it's so much easier

308
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,240
to get them to continue to say
yes and you can create lifelong

309
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,360
relationship with them.
Well, because now they've gone

310
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,920
from a prospect to a customer to
a friend or or at least a

311
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,280
relationship, right?
And I've built a career on

312
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,880
relationship selling.
I've created relationships with

313
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,320
thousands of people.
And some of them are very

314
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,960
shallow relationships where it's
just a transactional

315
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,920
relationship.
And some of them I go on

316
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,840
vacation with these people, you
know, like they're true, just

317
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,440
like you.
I know you have very deep

318
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240
friendships in the industry and
it's one of the great things

319
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,920
about our industry.
Indeed.

320
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,680
But just to finish that story,
so you know, I created this

321
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,840
concept for what is now Gear
Source based around

322
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,640
manufacturers needing someone to
focus on discontinued inventory

323
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,800
or B stock inventory stuff they
were sending out on demos.

324
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,480
It was coming back and getting
pushed back on the shelf again,

325
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,760
right?
And I saw this on my own

326
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,280
inventory control reports in
companies that I was managing or

327
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,320
working for.
And so I knew it was a problem

328
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,600
that existed.
So I was solving a real problem.

329
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,840
And then from there it sort of
developed more into like where

330
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,520
rental companies started saying,
can you solve this problem for

331
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,880
me to like get rid of my old
stuff.

332
00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:00,160
And that is the bulk of our
Business Today really is, is

333
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,400
rental company both acquiring
inventory and disposing of

334
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,120
inventory.
That's our biggest market today.

335
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:12,280
But that was all based on Seth
Godin.

336
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,800
So it's funny when you bring up
his name.

337
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,800
Yeah, he's, he's a pretty
interesting guy, I'll just say

338
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,840
that.
He's definitely colorful, you

339
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,680
know, starting from his
presence, you know, a big bright

340
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:29,360
red or blue sunglasses and he's
but he's so smart.

341
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,400
He really is so smart.
He's not everyone's flavor, but

342
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,960
you know, I've read most of his
books, almost all of his books.

343
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,120
I have his latest one something
song.

344
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,400
I have it sitting in my to be
read file.

345
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,080
But you know, I'm I'm a huge
fan.

346
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,520
Like Purple Cow was a great book
and, and just like again, one of

347
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,120
the things that I was really
early on when I started

348
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:59,440
Gearsource in 2002, I had a
permission based e-mail

349
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,880
marketing list.
Nobody was doing e-mail

350
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,960
marketing at the time, hardly
anyone, not, not no one, but

351
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,840
very few companies in our
industry were doing e-mail

352
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,200
marketing.
And so I focused on building

353
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,000
that list, which is now I think
25,000 people or something on

354
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,360
our e-mail market.
And we still to this day people

355
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,400
think e-mail is dead, but
Gearsource a big part of our,

356
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,360
our marketing focus really is on
our e-mail list and our

357
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,000
subscribers and providing good
valuable information to them on

358
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,200
a timely basis.
So.

359
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,040
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me.
Yeah.

360
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,760
So you've been retired now for
what, five years and I'm

361
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,760
guessing?
Retired to the funny word June

362
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,760
of 2017 and then I retired when
Bill Greener came in as the new

363
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,840
President on December 1st of
2018.

364
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,680
So I usually say I've been
retired since 2019 because it

365
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,120
was near the end of the year.
Right, right.

366
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:07,400
Fiscal or calendar year 2018,
fiscal year 2018 or whatever.

367
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,040
But no, that's, I envy you in a
sense.

368
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,200
You know, you got out, but at
the same time, I'm sure you

369
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,600
know, you've found other things
within our industry that you're

370
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,160
still involved in.
I know that you've been a big

371
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,360
guy on boards and stuff like
that.

372
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,000
Like that's always been a really
important part of your life and

373
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,760
your journey.
Are you still doing a lot of

374
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,720
that stuff?
I was, I'm still involved with

375
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,880
the Musical Theater Project,
which is a nationwide

376
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,360
organization, but it's located
here in Cleveland.

377
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:46,600
I'm a, an Ameritai board member
and an advisor for them.

378
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,160
And I, I am a scorer, volunteer.
Scorer is the Service Corps of

379
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,440
retired executives, a part of
the Small Business

380
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,920
Administration.
And so I volunteer my time to

381
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,600
help small businesses improve or
to help someone establish a

382
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,040
small business primarily in
Northeast Ohio area.

383
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,280
I have some specialty work but
most of my customers are here.

384
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,880
So it's like a mentorship
program, sort of.

385
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,280
Correct, correct.
That's.

386
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,080
Really interesting.
Back in the day, you know,

387
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,880
Score's been around since 1964
and they've helped, you know,

388
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,960
thousands of business owners.
We have about 10,000 volunteers

389
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,200
in 300 chapters and I'm part of
the Cleveland chapter and I've

390
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,000
done that for three years.
And before Score, I was in a

391
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,920
similar position with Business
Advisors of Cleveland, same

392
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,960
thing.
I was a volunteer, mentor or

393
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,160
coach as they call it.
Interesting, Interesting.

394
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,960
I didn't even know that program
existed.

395
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,520
That's, that's really, really
cool.

396
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,800
I, you know, as a business owner
who started on my own in my

397
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,760
bedroom in my house, building a
business and not knowing what

398
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,720
the heck I was doing other than
I had run other people's

399
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,240
businesses for them.
But when it's your own and

400
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,880
you're responsible for
everything from accounting,

401
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,360
banking, paying the taxes,
paying payroll, you know,

402
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,840
etcetera, business development,
it's so nice to have access to

403
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,360
that kind of a resource.
And I had no idea.

404
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,360
I didn't look for it either of
course, but.

405
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,760
Yeah, it's I've hired.
Lots of consultants along the

406
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,080
way, but.
Well, it's a free service,

407
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,480
always confidential and so I I
enjoy doing that.

408
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,960
That's really cool.
Are you on other boards right

409
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,200
now or or those two are are?
No, that, that's now primarily

410
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,680
it.
I, I, you know, was of course

411
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,120
involved with ESTA for many
years in the earlier days.

412
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,080
And I was the vice president and
then I became president and

413
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,800
there was a group of us, we, we
created the former president.

414
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,600
So Glenn Becker, who's not with
us anymore, John McGraw, who's

415
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,720
who is still with us and myself,
we're all presidents.

416
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,200
And then our little group of
included Frank Stewart, who was

417
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,320
in in theory treasure for life.
That was not the case.

418
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,400
And in a way Eric Magnusson who
was the original secretary or

419
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,520
maybe the second secretary and
during my time he was secretary,

420
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,400
we became what we like to call
the has been society and and

421
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,480
occasionally the the new board
would ask the three past

422
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,200
presidents along with any other
help they could get to do

423
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,600
certain things on behalf of ESTA
to investigate a trade show or

424
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,160
things of that nature.
And so we did that for several

425
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,160
years as well.
Weren't you part of like the

426
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,880
earliest foundation of ESTA or
whatever?

427
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,000
Like I remember ASTA for me is
synonymous with Paul Vincent.

428
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,880
You know, I mean well.
I don't know about that, but it

429
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,640
should be synonymous with Lori
Rubenstein, who has been the was

430
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,080
the executive director for many
years and did an outstanding

431
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,240
job, and then the three original
founders of the Theatrical

432
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,360
Dealers Association.
TDA was when it first started

433
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,560
and that was Bob Dement, who was
Lori's boss at San Diego Stage

434
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,040
and Lighting, and then Bob
Cannon at Bash and Glenn Becker

435
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,760
from Grand Stage.
They were the original leaders,

436
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,160
if you will.
They created the first meeting

437
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,800
in Las Vegas and that we were
one of 25 founding members of

438
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,680
the Theatrical Dealers
Association.

439
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,680
And then about two years in or
so, maybe three years in, we

440
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,520
became, there was a push because
standards making was important

441
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,400
and we were approached by larger
dealers and manufacturers as

442
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,160
well who wanted to be
full-fledged members.

443
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,400
They we had them as associate
members of the TDA.

444
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,440
But there was sort of a, you
know, it was sort of like this.

445
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:08,600
And I wanted and Lori wanted and
other people, I think rightly

446
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,760
wanted to create an organization
that was inclusive.

447
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,240
And so we invited manufacturers
to be able to join as full

448
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:23,160
members and change the name to
ESTA, the Entertainment Services

449
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,600
and Technology Association, at
that point in time.

450
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,200
And that allowed us to bring in
a much broader base of support.

451
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,320
And ultimately, let's say,
during my time, I think we grew

452
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,480
to 300 members.
And then over time, there are

453
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,000
close to 600 members, I think
now all based on, you know, work

454
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,960
of new volunteers.
And the thing that I always

455
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,280
loved from the very beginning
was that the organization was

456
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,960
and is volunteer driven.
That's certainly true.

457
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,000
And standards development as
well.

458
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,920
It's volunteer driven.
And every time we would have a

459
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,000
meeting, whatever that meeting
was, we really concentrating on

460
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,040
let's get the job done in front
of us because we're here for 1-2

461
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,480
or three days maybe, and then we
won't be.

462
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,440
And so let's get it done.
That's also very challenging

463
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,200
though, when it's when it's all
volunteer based because you

464
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360
can't just say, hey, spend the
next three weeks doing this, Bob

465
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,600
or Tom or whoever, right?
Like here's your responsibility

466
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,880
for the next couple of weeks.
Please get it done.

467
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,280
Because people can push back and
say, no, I've got a meeting,

468
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,240
I've got vacation with my
family.

469
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,000
I've got, you know, this trade
show I've got to be at, so life

470
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,240
gets in the way, their own
business gets in the way.

471
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,440
So it can be very frustrating,
I'm sure.

472
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,200
It is, but I think that's why
when we met, we knew over the

473
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,920
next three days we better
accomplish 3 months worth of

474
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,760
work because it's going to be
hard to get people to pay

475
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,760
attention when they get back to
their families, back to their

476
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,640
businesses, etcetera, etcetera.
Yeah, I had Jim, Jim Digby on, I

477
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,880
don't know, a few months ago
talking about that.

478
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,040
And he said similar things.
Like he said, one of the really

479
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,080
hard things about a volunteer
run organization is just getting

480
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,680
the work done, having enough
people with enough available

481
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,640
time and hands to be able to get
the work done.

482
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,320
And it can be very, very
challenging.

483
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,960
You know, even if it's just
copywriting or whatever it is,

484
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,600
it doesn't matter what it is,
somebody has to take ownership

485
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,040
and and champion that that
project and somebody actually

486
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,040
has to physically do the work.
And it's not always easy to do

487
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,240
that.
We were fortunate because we had

488
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,120
good leadership and we had a
good executive director in

489
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,520
Laurie and that helped keep
people focused.

490
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,360
And as we added more things like
technical standards, for

491
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,920
example, with the, the
organization grew within itself.

492
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,960
In other words, we hired Karl
ruling.

493
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,800
Eventually we hired the right
person, as it turns out, Mr.

494
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,840
Weber, who put together the
policies and procedures, and

495
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,080
everybody complained.
You know what?

496
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,800
Why does it take so long, blah,
blah, blah.

497
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Well, he was absolutely right.
If you get the policies and

498
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,040
procedures in place, and if
they're good and they're right,

499
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,560
it can become a national
standard through ANSI.

500
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,560
And that's exactly what
happened.

501
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840
So yeah, we were lucky.
Going back a bit, I I think you

502
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,520
said there were something like
2525 original founding members

503
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,920
in the TDA.
What was the mission at that

504
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,080
time?
Well, I think the mission at

505
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:36,320
that time was different because
we, we sort of had in the minds

506
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,120
of many dealers, not all
dealers, but in the minds of

507
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,080
many dealers, it was a we versus
them, meaning dealers versus

508
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,120
manufacturers.
That's what I thought and.

509
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,760
We had to change that thinking
and it didn't work for her.

510
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,840
There were a few dealers that
still even to this day

511
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,280
potentially probably look at our
becoming an inclusive

512
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520
organization as being negative.
In other words, they wanted to

513
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,720
see dealers do battle with
manufacturers.

514
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,960
Yeah.
And my approach was, well, the

515
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,880
manufacturers, we need the
manufacturers to do the right

516
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,920
things and they need dealers to
do the right things.

517
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,240
So let's team up together.
And yeah, to me that.

518
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,480
Makes more sense.
Yeah, much more sense.

519
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,680
Well, as soon as you start
saying it's US against them, the

520
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,440
side with the most guns wins,
you know, and that's going to be

521
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,320
the manufacturers.
Now today, different story.

522
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,840
Now there are customers who
thanks to private equity and and

523
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,480
all of that, there are customers
now who are larger than the

524
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,800
manufacturers and swing a big
stick.

525
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,320
But back in the day, you know,
we were talking about a whole

526
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,360
bunch of 5 million to $10
million companies fighting

527
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,760
against $100 million
manufacturers.

528
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520
And it it's a tough war to win,
you know, no.

529
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,120
No question, the landscape has
changed.

530
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,680
It's changed, no question about
that.

531
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,480
And that's that's healthy.
Yeah.

532
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,720
So then as you grew into SA,
you've already sort of said you

533
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,120
wanted to bring manufacturers
more into it, you wanted to get

534
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,680
into creating standards and
stuff.

535
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,920
So did that become the mission
basically as an entire industry

536
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,880
based on technical standards and
stuff or or what changed going

537
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,360
from TDA to ESTA primarily?
Well, I think the largest change

538
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,560
was the creation of standards
that could be recognized through

539
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:37,360
ANZI, because that allowed ESTA
to be basically the group that

540
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,160
focused on standards and work
together with other standards

541
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,120
making bodies.
Let's face it, USITT, I've been

542
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,040
a member of USITT since 1974.
USIT has always been in the

543
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:55,480
standard side, but it took the
combination of dealers, rental

544
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,280
houses and manufacturers
together to start creating

545
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,520
national standards and creating
those policies and procedures

546
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,440
that are so important to create
successful ANSI standards.

547
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,360
And you need that recognition.
That's important.

548
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,440
And so really ESTA became the
body, if you will, that created

549
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,400
standards on behalf of the
entertainment industry and other

550
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,400
organizations You just mentioned
won the Event Safety Group.

551
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,560
They do very important work.
And, and I can understand that

552
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,320
'cause I, I attend many of their
meetings.

553
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,880
I'm not on the board, I'm not
involved directly.

554
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,760
I'm a member of the ESA and I
love the work that they do.

555
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,480
And I think it's very important
work.

556
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,000
And if you if you own a rental
company, how can you not be

557
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,159
involved with safety?
I mean, you know, we all know

558
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,800
that as soon as the word safety
comes forward, people's eyes

559
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,560
gloss over, you know, and that's
sad because it's.

560
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,560
And we all also know, yeah,
yeah, we also know that it's

561
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,800
never an issue until it's an
issue, right?

562
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,920
You know, safety is not a
concern for people until it

563
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,200
becomes a concern for all the
wrong reasons.

564
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,960
You know, one of your staff
members gets hurt or worse or,

565
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,000
you know, a local company that
you know, has a problem and it

566
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,400
puts them out of business or
something like that.

567
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,040
Like until it becomes a problem
for our industry, it's generally

568
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,400
not a problem.
And, you know, I look at some

569
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:32,080
images of rigors and stuff from
the 70s and, and 80s and just

570
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,600
some of the stuff that we as an,
as an industry did back then.

571
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,560
You know, just some of the,
they're funny to look at, but

572
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,880
you look at them and you just
go, Oh my God, I can't believe

573
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,960
people did that.
You know I.

574
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,920
Remember being in a, in an
arena, an ice arena in

575
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,400
Cincinnati, local 5 stage hands.
And you know, I was a student

576
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,560
and so I was jobbing in and I'm
on the top of a 40 foot A-frame

577
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,080
ladder being dragged along the
ice.

578
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520
And of course they wouldn't let
me come down.

579
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:08,920
Every time you had to be moved
along the Truss in order to

580
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,880
focus more lights.
You had to stay right where you

581
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,560
were and just pray that they
didn't hit a rut or something

582
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,920
happened.
So the things that we did, that

583
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,160
was in 197374.
So the things that we did, I'm,

584
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,200
I'm just amazed.
When you say 73 or 74, do you

585
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,760
stop for a second and go?
That's 50 years.

586
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,800
That's 50 years ago.
Oh my God, you know.

587
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,880
I'm 72 now, so yeah.
Oh.

588
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,880
Wow, yeah, I I thought you were
in mid to late 60s still, but

589
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,920
yeah, well, you're doing well.
You know, the whole board thing

590
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,760
to me, I'm in awe of people who
do it, whether whether we're

591
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,120
talking about an HOAA homeowner
association or condo association

592
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,200
or we're talking about
associations like the ones that

593
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,240
we're discussing right now, like
industry associations, which are

594
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:07,560
so vitally important.
I'm never the guy raising my

595
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,560
hand saying please put me on
that board.

596
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,200
And it's not because I'm lazy.
You know, trust me, I'm, I'm not

597
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:19,600
lazy at all.
I'm not always a fan of the, I

598
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,320
don't know whether it's
diplomacy or, or bureaucracy or

599
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,880
whatever you want to call it
that goes on in these boards.

600
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,280
So I will tell you for the first
time in my life, other than

601
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,320
within my own companies, I've
joined a board and I was invited

602
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,280
to a board.
It's, it's a private equity

603
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,640
company that's buying other
companies and they invited me to

604
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,840
the board.
I joined the board and I'm

605
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,560
really enjoying the process.
But I will tell you that after

606
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,160
the first meeting I had just
because I've always run my own

607
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,680
businesses or my own teams or
even when I was an employee, I

608
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,280
acted like the owner always for
good and bad reasons, right?

609
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,280
And after the first meeting, the
the CEO of the private equity

610
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,240
group came to me and said,
Marcel, you've got great ideas,

611
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:10,720
but you need to kind of calm
them down a little bit

612
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,040
sometimes.
Like you don't want to just suck

613
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,840
all the oxygen out of the room
and make everybody else feel

614
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,960
stupid.
You got to do this with a little

615
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,120
bit of diplomacy.
And I was so embarrassed and so

616
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,560
upset with myself.
And I talked to so many of my

617
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,200
friends saying, Oh my God, I
can't believe I did this.

618
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,640
I feel like such a tool.
And the second meeting I had

619
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,320
with them, they contacted me
right after and said, you're

620
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,320
amazing.
Like, I don't know how we could

621
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,680
have this board without you on
it at this point.

622
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,880
You're, you're so valuable to
us.

623
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,160
And, and so it was really,
really great to get that, that

624
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,880
positive feedback because I was
so nervous and, and just like, I

625
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,600
just felt like a fish out of
water, like just out of place,

626
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,440
you know, like a, a leader in a
position that I needed to be a

627
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,640
follower or at least a, a
representative, you know, an

628
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,000
equal.
Well, there's a big difference

629
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,720
between for profit companies
when you're on the board of a

630
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,800
for profit company like a
private equity group and

631
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,880
nonprofits.
And in the case of ESTA, ESTA

632
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,720
isn't really a nonprofit.
ESTA itself is a it.

633
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,360
It doesn't have 5O1C3 status
because it's really a trade

634
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,120
association, so it exists for
the benefit of its members.

635
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,160
Whereas ESTA created the ESTA
Foundation originally and then

636
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,760
which is now behind the scenes,
that ultimately became behind

637
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,600
the scenes and that does have
5O1C3 status and is a full

638
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,240
nonprofit organization and, and
there's a real difference.

639
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,840
I was on the BTS board for a
while, but I think they grew

640
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,840
weary of me asking too many
questions and so that happens.

641
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,040
That does happen, Yeah, I do it.
I I can understand and so.

642
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,200
And, and that was not very
diplomatic.

643
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:03,960
They were not diplomatic about
it.

644
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:09,360
And so that was troubling to me.
But none the less I understand.

645
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,720
I understand that.
And, and there are times when

646
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:18,720
you have to hold your tongue and
times when it's smart to ask a

647
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,640
question.
I thought I was asking a very

648
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,360
simple, straightforward
question.

649
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:24,200
It turned out not to be the
case.

650
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,880
So it is what it is, no?
It's a great.

651
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,520
Organization.
I've had similar, I've had

652
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,120
similar situations on this
current board experience that

653
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,640
I'm going through where I really
am holding my thoughts and

654
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,720
trying to listen a lot more than
I talk and things like that,

655
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,320
like stuff that I'm not used to
doing in my own company or

656
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,320
companies that I've had.
But now it's a must.

657
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,720
And it's working out really
nicely and I'm really learning a

658
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:54,840
lot from listening to other
people, believe it or not, and

659
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,240
then just finding a way to
massage my information into the

660
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:03,440
conversation, like to kind of
sneak it in instead of just, you

661
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,960
know, here I come.
But, but you know, like I said,

662
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,080
I, I appreciate very much people
like yourself who are so

663
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,920
generous and willing to give
time and energy and effort

664
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,920
towards these really thankless
positions where everybody's

665
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,480
always yelling at you and mad at
you for one reason or another.

666
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,400
And like in the case of ESTA, I
remember in the early days of

667
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,960
ESTA, I was at Martin and I
remember you guys were doing the

668
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,440
fog and smoke stuff.
And, you know, we were one of

669
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:45,000
the, the biggest probably
enemies of that situation at the

670
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,840
time because we were doing
everything wrong, you know, like

671
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,560
we just didn't know what we were
doing.

672
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,680
The machines were made in Europe
and the fluid was made by a

673
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,040
chemical company.
And and so, you know, I think we

674
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,440
were a bit of an offender in in
the early days and we really

675
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,600
didn't have the technical people
on staff to send to these

676
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,560
meetings and and to be a real
contributor to them.

677
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:14,040
But one of the things that we
saw very early on was really

678
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,240
just how many battles were going
on and, and, you know, there was

679
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,680
still a little bit of
manufacture on this side and,

680
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,120
and dealer on the other side or,
or technical people on one side

681
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,560
and manufacturers on the other
side just trying to hold on to

682
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,720
what was theirs.
You know, no, please don't take

683
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:35,000
this away from me.
But yeah, like again, everyone

684
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,480
has experience with condo
associations and HOA boards and

685
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480
stuff like that.
It is a job I've never

686
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,000
volunteered for because I
appreciate the people who do it.

687
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,440
I know most of them are doing
the best they can.

688
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,400
Often times it's easy to
complain about the jobs they're

689
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,240
doing or the decisions they're
making or even some of the

690
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,440
things like where, you know, the
guy next to you is getting his

691
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,040
lawn cut for free because he's
on the board and I'm paying to

692
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,800
get my lawn cut.
That's not fair.

693
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,040
Well, hey, invest some time in
the board then, and you might

694
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,040
get some perks, you know, so.
But yeah.

695
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,120
You know, it's interesting when
you bring up FOG standards, for

696
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,880
example, you're right.
It was it, there was more, it

697
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,960
was more cantankerous in those
days, there's no question about

698
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,480
that.
But some very good standards

699
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,400
were created and the vast
majority of manufacturers,

700
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,960
including Martin, were
contributors to creating a good

701
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,680
standard.
And so, and that's what I mean

702
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,720
by volunteers, ultimately, even
Martin provided good volunteer

703
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,880
work in order to help create
good standards.

704
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,400
And I also remember writing a
check and and I think when we

705
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,800
couldn't contribute smart
technical information, we just

706
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,880
wrote a check you.
Supported the program.

707
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,720
And that was helpful, you know,
And so when you have nothing

708
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,240
good to say, write a check, you
know, and and everybody will be

709
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,560
happy.
So yeah, that seemed to work for

710
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,200
us.
So I don't know where to really

711
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,160
start, even though we're we're
deep into it.

712
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:15,920
But you know, you, you actually
were one of the people I think,

713
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,760
Oh, no, you didn't go to school
for like theater or.

714
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,680
Or yes, I did.
Oh, you did.

715
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,880
I did.
My father was an Equity actor

716
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,400
for 55 years and my mother was
an actress and they work

717
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,360
together and they were both
teachers.

718
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,840
My father was the head of the
theater department at

719
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,520
Edinborough State Teachers
College back in the day, now

720
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,120
Edinburgh University in
Pennsylvania, in northeastern

721
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,440
Pennsylvania, northwestern
Pennsylvania.

722
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Sorry.
And so we spent our early days

723
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,840
there.
And then he became the head of

724
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,760
the theater department in
Cleveland at a local Community

725
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,000
College track, Cuyahoga
Community College, the Western

726
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,000
Campus theater.
He ran for many years.

727
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,840
And then he retired in 1982,
moved to New York and became a

728
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:09,160
character actor.
And he did that until 2002,

729
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,000
2003, when he retired and moved
to the Actors Fund home.

730
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,240
The, I like to say the
Disneyland of elder care

731
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,920
facilities.
They are wonderful and they

732
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,200
help, they help support behind
the scenes actually.

733
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,920
And, and it's a great
organization.

734
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,320
And he spent his last years
there.

735
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,840
They had a small little acting
troupe.

736
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,880
They they created shows.
He was with kindred spirits.

737
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,600
There were actors and directors
and stenographers and costume

738
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,920
designers, a whole range of
people from the entertainment

739
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,760
industry in Englewood, NJ, and
so and.

740
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,320
What's that facility called
again?

741
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,800
It's the Actors Fund home.
Wow, yeah, that is cool.

742
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,480
And and so it's it's exclusively
for people from.

743
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:04,360
And for anyone in entertainment,
could be a technician, it could

744
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,760
be a star, it could be, you
know, I remember walking down

745
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,000
the hallway once and Lynn
Redgrave walked right past us,

746
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,080
you know, so, so it was a
fascinating place to be because

747
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,560
they would bring people from
Broadway and so on, and they

748
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,600
would do presentations.
And it was a really, really,

749
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:26,120
really, and still is.
It's a cool place.

750
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,680
What a great idea, what a 'cause
you know, as we all know, it's,

751
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:37,360
it's such a, you know, terrible
way that most people are treated

752
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,520
when it comes down to that part
of your life and.

753
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,280
It's it's a great place.
You know my, my mom's in a

754
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,040
dementia home and she's in a
really good one in Calgary,

755
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,960
Canada.
It's very nice.

756
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,400
It's very clean.
The staff are all really nice,

757
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,040
but there's no theater.
There's no, you know, there's

758
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,840
none of those really cool
activities that keep people's

759
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,080
brains working.
I mean, yes, they bring in a, a

760
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,640
guitar player every once in a
while and they'll all sit around

761
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,880
and sing nursery rhymes and
stuff, you know?

762
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:13,040
But I just find that it lacks
sort of a central sort of thing

763
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,840
that everybody can wrap
themselves around and be excited

764
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,400
about when they wake up in the
morning.

765
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,600
And that really is a cool, cool
concept that you're talking.

766
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,080
About they they created a little
touring company.

767
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,240
They would go to other other
nursing homes and and elder care

768
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:29,920
facilities and do small
productions.

769
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:34,880
You know, such a great idea, say
an act or two from Macbeth or,

770
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,800
you know, pick your show.
So anyway, I went to the

771
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,040
University of Cincinnati and I
got my undergraduate degree in

772
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,120
speech and communication.
And I was lucky and I went into

773
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,120
the theater department one day
and, and I tried out for a show.

774
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:55,760
I played Doctor Spivey and One
Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and,

775
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,880
and I became a technician and I
just fell in love with lighting.

776
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,880
And my mentor there was a guy
named Steve Carmichael.

777
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,560
He and some of his friends had
all been to Juilliard and had

778
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,960
gone through the program there
and had worked at Juilliard and

779
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,000
then came back to Cincinnati.
There was a stage manager, Tommy

780
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Warner, and his wife, who was a
costume designer, and my wife

781
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,000
worked for her for a while.
It's this whole nice group that

782
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,120
you see.
And this was in the day before

783
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,840
the theater department was
merged into the College

784
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,000
Conservatory of Music.
So most people are familiar with

785
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,880
CCM, but back in the day we were
part of A&S Arts and Sciences.

786
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,880
It was just the theater
department.

787
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,560
We didn't often do musicals,
I'll put it that way.

788
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,320
And we work in this really old,
old, you know, Depression era

789
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,440
auditorium, Wilson Auditorium.
It was dangerous.

790
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,160
And, you know, somehow we all
survived.

791
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,840
I remember the assistant
technical director fell and came

792
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,560
crashing down on to top of a
cabinet.

793
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,120
He managed to survive just fine.
His name's Jim Houlihan.

794
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,120
Really good guy, but he, he went
on to do good things, went to

795
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,800
North Carolina School of the
Arts and was a teacher there for

796
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,360
a while.
And Steve went on to eventually

797
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,760
move to Colorado where he taught
for a while.

798
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,840
And then now he lives in Santa
Fe, NM.

799
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:26,080
So he was very, very important.
Taught me a a ton and I got my

800
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,600
master's degree in theatre from
University of Cincinnati.

801
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,600
And then I got lucky.
Joel Penn, Joe Nell Polanski was

802
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,120
working at Kliegel Brothers back
in the day.

803
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:43,120
We're talking, you know, 1974
and she came to Cleveland.

804
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:48,800
Sorry, she came to Cincinnati
because we were doing a company

805
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,840
on the Showboat Majestic and we
were moving company to the

806
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,960
Netherland Hilton Hotel for the
Southeast Theatre Conference.

807
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,480
And the Kliegel Rep Sheldon
store at the time brought her in

808
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,360
and, and I was the lighting
designer and she was my board up

809
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:11,920
and she brought a Klegel Q level
2000, a brand new newfangled

810
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,800
memory system to run that show
and it was great.

811
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,880
And she asked me, well, what are
you going to do when you're

812
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,120
done?
And you know, I said, well, I'm

813
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,120
not sure I might.
My father was acting in summer

814
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,920
theatre, Kenley Players in
Warren, OH.

815
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,960
And they did the Kenley did the
circuit and he brought in Star

816
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,040
power, you know, people like
back in the day, Paul Lind and

817
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,960
and Florence Henderson and you
know, et cetera.

818
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,280
And, and he would do this
circuit between Warren, Dayton,

819
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,480
Cincinnati and sometimes Flint,
MI and sometimes down in Florida

820
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,160
too.
He was an impresario.

821
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,520
Very, very interesting and
colorful guy.

822
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,280
Anyway, I thought, well, maybe I
could do technical work for for

823
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,000
Kenley.
I thought my dad might be able

824
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,480
to help me out there because he
knew Kentley pretty well.

825
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,800
He's been a character actor for
Kentley for many years.

826
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,560
In the summer before that, he's
at Music Carnival in Cleveland,

827
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,720
which is run by Johnny Price,
another impresario kind of

828
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:15,360
personal producer.
Anyway, none of that worked out.

829
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,240
And so Jonelle said to me, why
don't you come to New York and

830
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:22,480
come to work for Kleagle?
So she arranged for me to have

831
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,920
an interview with Joel Rubin and
he's my second mentor that I

832
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,440
mentioned, I think in the
information I provided.

833
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:35,160
And he was, he was amazing, hard
to work for, had a big ego, but

834
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,120
deserved that ego.
To be honest.

835
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,920
He was very knowledgeable.
He's the best salesperson I have

836
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,240
ever witnessed.
He was unbelievable.

837
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,200
Of course, he just passed away
several months ago now.

838
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:51,520
But what a, what a great person
and so useful, so knowledgeable.

839
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:56,640
He, he would, he had this group
of people and he knew what our

840
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,280
strengths and weaknesses were.
So he'd point Vincent, you're

841
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,760
going to go down to Florida and
work with Ralph Snailock, our

842
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,560
Rep down there, or Jim McHugh,
you're going to go here, or Mike

843
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,040
Connell, you're going to go over
here.

844
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,840
You know, back in those days, it
was really interesting to work

845
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,920
for Joel, for Doctor Joel.
He, he was amazing.

846
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,080
And Kleagle, at the time they
were, they were number one.

847
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:25,760
This was before ETC was born.
They came along in 1975 and of

848
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,320
course stole everybody's hearts
because Fred Foster, you know,

849
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,960
knew what he was doing and he
created marketing that really

850
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,480
worked and he created good
products, right?

851
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,080
So anyway, working at Kleagle
was great.

852
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,600
And then I worked at Color Trend
for Bob Benson.

853
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,720
He was also just a spectacular
leader, became a consultant

854
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,120
eventually and but he ran the
east eastern half of the United

855
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,680
States for color Trend.
So I was one of his sales people

856
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,040
and then I went to work for Bill
Leento at Strand Lighting and

857
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,800
eventually hatched the idea of
starting my own business and

858
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,440
coming back to Cleveland.
But it's interesting though,

859
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,080
because you, you, you know, you
went to school, you got your

860
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,920
master's degree, you came out,
you were a lighting designer.

861
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,520
How, like how or why the
transition into becoming a sales

862
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,480
guy?
Or was that just monetizing, You

863
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,760
know what you knew you wanted to
be a part of?

864
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,760
It was just a way to make money.
I'll tell you a story about

865
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,280
that.
So when I went to New York, I,

866
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,360
I, I thought my ship had sailed
in as, from a lighting design

867
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,680
standpoint.
And, you know, I was going to

868
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,160
work for Klegel almost like
being a lighting designer

869
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,600
instead of having to work as a
waiter somewhere, you know, in

870
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,240
New York, I could be in the
lighting business.

871
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,400
What could be better, you know?
And so I tried to learn as much

872
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,520
as I could.
I got involved with video

873
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,480
lighting.
I wanted to learn more about

874
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,520
that side, not just theatrical
lighting.

875
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,280
I did some great stuff.
I lit some ballet companies, not

876
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,320
not big, well known companies
like American Pal, a theater,

877
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,160
but smaller regional stuff, you
know, in the New York area.

878
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,800
And I did some work with CBS
just again, assisting the

879
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,440
lighting designer, you know what
I mean?

880
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,080
But when I went to work for
Kleagle.

881
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,480
So Joel interviews me, We
finished the interview.

882
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,600
He offers me a job, tells me
when I need to report, says to

883
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,840
me, OK, it's we're at the in
April or first part of May.

884
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,680
The first thing I want you to do
is come to New York, to the

885
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,400
USITT Conference, and you must
join USITT.

886
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,880
So that was his first
commandment.

887
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,000
You must join USITT.
And then he says to me, let's

888
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,640
see now, Vincent, Vincent, let's
see.

889
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,440
Do you know Larry Vincent?
I said, well, that's my father.

890
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,520
And he said, oh, I work with
your father's mother at Game

891
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,600
Park in Cleveland.
He was from Cleveland

892
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,240
originally.
He says, I work with your mother

893
00:54:57,240 --> 00:54:59,840
and dad at Kane Park.
He was the lighting designer

894
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,400
there.
And my mom and dad were acting

895
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,280
at Kane Park.
And so he got to know them.

896
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,440
That is nuts.
And so this was after he had

897
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,120
already hired me.
So I thought, wow, Providence,

898
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,560
you know?
No kidding.

899
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:14,720
Yeah.
Jeez.

900
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,960
Well, and you know, I mean, I'm
sure that helped you a little

901
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,520
bit in just your relationship
with him and, and you know, not

902
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,360
getting in trouble if you were 5
minutes late for a meeting.

903
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,840
I'm not sure about that.
I think he was, he held pretty

904
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,840
high standards regarding sales
in particular.

905
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:36,480
And you know, if there was a
marketing meeting or a sales

906
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,520
meeting and, and I was in the
desk, so I took Jonelle's desk.

907
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,240
She, she continued to be a
lighting done and she was always

908
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:47,760
a lighting designer, well known
back in the day and she lit the

909
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,240
Saint Louis Opera, for example.
And, and so she did a lot of

910
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:53,880
work even in New York, off
Broadway and so forth.

911
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,680
And so I took her, get her desk.
She moved out in May.

912
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,960
I moved in in June and took her
desk.

913
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:05,200
Well, it was right next to Joel.
Joel sort of sat over here and I

914
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,200
was right next to him, right?
And so I would hear all the

915
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,600
conversations, etcetera.
I would even hear it was an open

916
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:20,920
plan office at Kleagle and John
Kleagle, the third nice guy by

917
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,400
the way, but I think he was
quite happy to have Joel lead

918
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,760
sales for him.
But he had some of his, I would

919
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,280
say friends, you know, or family
members that were part of the

920
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,000
company.
And you could hear the

921
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,040
purchasing agent, I think his
name was Tom Moran.

922
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,640
I think that's right.
And he would, these

923
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,400
conversations would get really
loud and then next thing you'd

924
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,120
hear is the phone going Wham
right off the wall.

925
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,320
He'd throw the phone against.
Well, do you know Tim Brennan?

926
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,880
I've seen him do that about 25
times.

927
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:57,760
Well, yes, yes.
But those days at at Kleagle

928
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,400
were that was a real learning
experience.

929
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,440
And then the same thing, the
same thing.

930
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,760
The reason I mentioned Marshall
Spiller at Strand is, you know,

931
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,400
Marshall used to run quotations
for them, for Bill Leonto.

932
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,040
And Marshall was a real
stickler.

933
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:16,040
I mean, you had to do things a
certain way.

934
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:22,040
And I worked for him initially
and so it was good because he

935
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,440
taught me a lot about how to put
quotations together and how

936
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:30,080
important they were, you know,
and, and he worked also, we

937
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,120
worked with Marsha Madeira, who
was a lighting designer, still

938
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,120
is a lighting designer, I think
to this day.

939
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,840
Off Broadway stuff and so forth
and musicals, etcetera.

940
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,320
And boy, we all, all of us grew
up together during that time

941
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:48,240
period and just learned a ton
from people like Joel and then

942
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,280
Marshall Spiller and Bill
Diento.

943
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,920
You know, Bill was I, I used to
have a sign on my desk.

944
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,000
I loved Bill and he was very
knowledgeable and very helpful.

945
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,280
But I had a little sign that
said, my mind's made-up.

946
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,640
Don't confuse me with the facts.
And that was to remind me that

947
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,200
that that's how Bill worked.
It's just how he worked.

948
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,160
He was, he was, you know, very,
he was a A type personality,

949
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,880
way, way, way up to the top, you
know, but very knowledgeable,

950
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:25,400
very good in sales.
But Joel Ruben, he was the

951
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:31,240
quintessential combination of,
you know, ABCD.

952
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:36,640
He, he really was, he was so
excellent with customers, just

953
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,040
amazing.
Anyway, so those were my days at

954
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,080
Strand, and then that it was
very helpful to work with people

955
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,440
like Bill and Marshall Spiller
and so forth because that helped

956
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,800
me figure out how I might be
able to start my own business.

957
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,320
And what what drove you to do
that though?

958
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,320
Like where, where did the
inspiration or idea?

959
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,200
Why did you decide that there
needed to be a Vincent Lighting

960
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,600
Systems?
Well, let's put it this way.

961
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:06,400
I knew early on when I was about
six months in at Klegel Brothers

962
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,040
that I couldn't work for someone
else, that at some point in time

963
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,400
I would need to start my own
company.

964
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,000
And I knew I needed to learn
more.

965
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:21,800
And so I I hatched this whole
idea of working for Klegel,

966
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,560
working for Color Tran, and then
working for Strand.

967
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,080
That's interesting.
At that time period, that was a

968
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,680
great way to learn.
I call it getting my PhD.

969
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,120
Well, I seem to recall looking
at at when I was looking through

970
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,600
the notes before recording this,
that you spent like almost the

971
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,560
exact amount of time at each of
those three companies.

972
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,480
So it looked like it was a plan,
like you had that whole thing

973
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,320
mapped out.
Yeah, I tried not to burn any

974
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,560
branches as I went along.
Of course, that's important

975
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,120
because you know, at some point
if you're going to start a

976
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:58,320
dealership company somewhere and
I didn't, well, you need

977
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,080
product, but I did it the easy
way.

978
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,080
When I started my business, it
was called Paul Vincent

979
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,800
Associates.
And we were a manufacturer's Rep

980
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,960
for strength.
And that was easy to do because

981
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,920
they needed a new Rep in Ohio.
And, and I understood what they

982
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,720
needed to do and what they would
want me to do as, as the Rep.

983
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,080
And so I worked together with
Sam Cercone.

984
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,560
He was the Rep in Pittsburgh.
I was the Rep in Cleveland.

985
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,280
And he had his business and I
had my business and eventually

986
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,240
after a few years, we put those
businesses together and created

987
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,720
Sercon Vincent Associates and
that lasted for five years and

988
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,920
we did very well.
Sam was also way up on the

989
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,760
chart, so to speak, very good in
sales, very strong in sales.

990
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,640
He still he runs a company
called Brightline, now

991
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,480
manufacturer of of video and
film lighting products and

992
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,560
Vincent Lighting became one of
his key dealers actually in in

993
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,160
back in the day, so to speak.
Interesting.

994
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,320
And he and I, we are good
friends.

995
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,000
We're different.
You know, I'm, I'm much more

996
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,840
geared towards operations and he
was geared towards sales.

997
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:09,280
So we made a good team.
And luckily I was in Cleveland,

998
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,080
he was in Pittsburgh.
If we're in the same city, we'd

999
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,440
probably killed each other.
Yeah, it works.

1000
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,160
It works like that often.
Because he wouldn't have been

1001
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,560
able to tolerate me.
After a while, he told me that

1002
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,680
that's what happened.
At the end of four years, he

1003
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,160
said, well, we are 5050
partners.

1004
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,040
And he said, well, I don't want
a partner anymore.

1005
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,880
I want to be a 60% owner.
And I said, well, I don't want

1006
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,840
to be your employee.
So therefore we're going to

1007
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,800
split this up.
And we, we both got good

1008
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,440
attorneys.
We spent the time needed to

1009
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,640
create a situation where we both
left each other alone.

1010
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,520
He took his part.
I took my part and the rest is

1011
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:47,320
history.
So it's a.

1012
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,240
Very civilized way to handle it.
It was the right, it was

1013
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:52,960
definitely the right thing to
do.

1014
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,920
It was good for both of us.
You just basically backed out

1015
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,560
and went back to being a a Rep.
You were still a manufacturer's

1016
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,080
Rep.
At that time, because we had

1017
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,760
created, there was still Paul
Vincent Associates out there as

1018
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,640
a separate little company and
there were still Sir Conan

1019
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,920
Associates out there, his little
Rep company.

1020
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,160
We created Sir Cone Vincent as
the dealer as a distributor.

1021
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,840
Of.
All these products, right?

1022
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:22,600
We did that in 1981 and then we
created another company called

1023
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,280
performance lighting and
production services that became

1024
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:30,560
the rental company, OK.
And eventually he sold that

1025
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,560
other words, when, when I, I was
on the banking agreement, when

1026
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,440
we got our first loan in order
to buy all the equipment that we

1027
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:41,520
needed, We got a, because it was
mostly located in Pittsburgh at

1028
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,160
the time when we first started
that it was geared towards the

1029
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,240
commercial video and film
marketplace.

1030
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,960
So we had a grip truck, we had
quite a quite a nice package

1031
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,000
from Matthews.
We had a generator, film style

1032
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,720
generator, you know, etcetera
and you know, a complete HMI

1033
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,520
package back in the day,
etcetera.

1034
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:08,000
And you know, I think we
probably spent $250,000 or

1035
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,800
something like that, which back
then was quite a bit of money.

1036
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,640
And we had, we went to, I think
it may have been Mellon Bank,

1037
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:20,560
may have been our first bank I
think if I recall correctly

1038
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,560
anyway.
And we were able to get a good

1039
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,840
loan back in that time period
and we built that business up.

1040
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,400
And eventually when I exited,
what I got out of the deal was I

1041
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,560
got off the debt.
So that was good.

1042
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,200
And I got all the theatrical
equipment, not that there was

1043
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,440
much, but there was enough to
get me started, you know, maybe

1044
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:44,040
sixty, $70,000 worth of theater
lighting equipment.

1045
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,840
And of course, Sam kept all of
the video and film side, the

1046
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,320
grip truck, etcetera.
And there was another guy who

1047
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,920
was a partner with us in
performance lighting and

1048
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,720
production services guy named
Jim Forrester.

1049
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,960
He's not on the planet anymore.
He was a great guy, very

1050
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,280
knowledgeable, very hard working
and he was a well known gaffer

1051
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,800
in the Pittsburgh marketplace
and he did work all over

1052
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,720
Pennsylvania, Ohio, etcetera.
He was very well known.

1053
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,880
He was very helpful in helping
us create a really good business

1054
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,680
because his grip truck, his
little grip truck that he had

1055
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,480
came into the fold as well.
And that was important to have

1056
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,520
small stuff and big stuff.
Yeah, you.

1057
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,720
Need you needed both, no
question about it.

1058
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,960
So anyway.
This was 1981.

1059
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:32,600
You're saying though when you
guys split up?

1060
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:39,760
Well, no, no, what what happened
was we put it together at USITT.

1061
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,880
That was our coming out party,
so to speak, at USIT in

1062
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:49,240
Cleveland IN on April 1st of
1981.

1063
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:54,000
OK.
At USITT and then we built from

1064
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,360
there.
We had actually the, our

1065
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,440
official start date was at the
end of 1980.

1066
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:06,040
So in January of 1981 we began
Sir Cone Vincent Associates, but

1067
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,960
we didn't announce it to the
public in any big way until

1068
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,480
April 1st.
And that was always the we

1069
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:17,840
always used April first as our
original date that Sir Cone

1070
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:22,000
Vincent was founded.
Was there ever an argument over

1071
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,600
Vincent Sarcone?
No.

1072
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:27,680
Was there a coin flip or
anything?

1073
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,880
I had nobody had to pick up a
dinner bill.

1074
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,200
Knew that his name would need to
be first.

1075
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:35,280
He needed that and that was
fine.

1076
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:37,760
I had no and he deserved it.
It was fine.

1077
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,640
He was.
He was the better salesperson at

1078
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,680
that point in time, especially
for that marketplace, meaning

1079
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,560
for the video and the commercial
video and film marketplace.

1080
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,880
He knew that marketplace really
well.

1081
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,200
He had worked in Pittsburgh for
companies in that business.

1082
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,040
He got his degree in
communications from Bowling

1083
01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,720
Green State University.
He had the knowledge base, so I

1084
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,520
would help him on theater and
architectural lighting and he

1085
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,720
would help me on video lighting
and so forth.

1086
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,520
And that's how it is.
We came together and eventually

1087
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:12,880
created Sir Cone Vincent
Associates.

1088
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,800
At a certain point in time it
became clear that we were

1089
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,920
creating confusion in the
marketplace 'cause there was Sir

1090
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,080
Cone and Associates, Paul
Vincent Associates, Sir Cone

1091
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,680
Vincent who were we, etcetera,
etcetera.

1092
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,960
And eventually we merged all of
it into one company.

1093
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,720
It all came into Sir Cone
Vincent and that that did very

1094
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:39,280
well for four years.
And about I, I think around 1983

1095
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,560
is when we created performance
lighting and production services

1096
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:45,240
and got officially into the
rental business.

1097
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,320
So that was the rental, that was
the rental side of the business

1098
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,760
and and Sir Cone Vincent was the
sales side.

1099
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:53,920
Yes.
Basically and distribution,

1100
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:54,680
yeah.
Got it.

1101
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,640
Yes, that's right.
And and we were both the the

1102
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,280
three of us, Jim Forrester, Sam
and I were partners in

1103
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,040
performance lighting and
production services.

1104
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,560
And then when we went our
separate ways, Sam, Sam and Jim

1105
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,480
continued performance Lighting
production services as a

1106
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:18,160
separate company.
And then he reinstituted, so to

1107
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,640
speak.
He created in fact an umbrella

1108
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,600
company called the Performance
Group that was Sam's company.

1109
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,080
And he put everything into the
Performance Group.

1110
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,000
And then I kept everything that
was in Cleveland.

1111
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,840
The people that we had any of
the any of the theatrical

1112
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,120
equipment that we own moved up
to Cleveland.

1113
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:40,400
And then I started Vincent
Lighting Systems on January 1st

1114
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,080
of 1986.
And.

1115
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:50,400
It's funny, the the and Sam's
brother Jody worked for me and

1116
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,200
he was great.
I love Jody.

1117
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:56,440
He did a great job.
And and so he stayed with me

1118
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,600
after a while.
He originally went to work for

1119
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,840
Sam for about a year or so.
And then he rang me up one day

1120
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,000
and said, by the way, you would
talk to me about, you know,

1121
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:06,320
working for you.
What do you think?

1122
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,280
And so, and so I brought him to,
brought him to work for me and

1123
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,360
that's what he wanted to do.
So it, it worked out fine.

1124
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:18,000
And I, I reached out to the
employee team and I asked the

1125
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,960
group, the original group, I
think there were five of us.

1126
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,399
I quickly hired 1/6 'cause I
brought in a really good

1127
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,240
accounting person, Joanie Roker,
who ultimately became our vice

1128
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:34,359
president of finance over time.
And John Seaman was our

1129
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:38,080
technical person.
We always, our approach

1130
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:44,560
basically was we had an outside
salesperson who was supported by

1131
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,920
an inside administrative person
and an inside technical person.

1132
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,800
And if you break that down at
Vincent Lighting Systems, even

1133
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,840
to this day, now called VLS,
even to this day, you find that

1134
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,000
same team approach and I think
you find a similar approach.

1135
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,040
It's not.
There's nothing new about that.

1136
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,800
Yeah, you know that in your day
as a salesperson, you had to

1137
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,120
have good inside support.
And I've, I've always liked that

1138
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:13,160
sort of POD structure, you know,
and high end did it really well

1139
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:14,800
too.
When I went to high end for a

1140
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:19,120
short period of time in the late
90s, they had a similar thing

1141
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,200
where you had your own finance
person and your own inside

1142
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,760
person and like you had your
little group and you didn't have

1143
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:29,680
to contact people in finance to
get anything done.

1144
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,520
They did it.
Yeah, yeah.

1145
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:37,160
That, that worked very well.
And so anyway, we we went on

1146
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,960
from there 1986, the team said,
well, you're well known in the

1147
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,560
industry, we should call this
Vincent Lighting Systems.

1148
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:46,960
And so, OK, that wasn't my
decision.

1149
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,439
That was a group decision.
So that's what we did.

1150
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:55,200
And eventually, you know, after
another many years in the

1151
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,520
business opening up, we opened
up the Pittsburgh office.

1152
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,920
Jody ran the Pittsburgh office
originally.

1153
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,200
Walt Weber, who had been with me
for many years, including the

1154
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,880
Sir Cone Vincent days, he opened
up the Cincinnati office for us,

1155
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,200
you know, and eventually we
opened a Columbus sales office,

1156
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,600
not a full rental office, but a
sales office.

1157
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,200
And eventually, we created a
sales office in Michigan

1158
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:22,920
together with Glenn Becker at
Grand Stage.

1159
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,800
Interesting, huh?
So we covered the state of

1160
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,320
Michigan, but it was a
partnership with Grand Stage

1161
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:33,880
Company in the early days.
Well, the name, the Vincent

1162
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,440
Lighting name seems to have
stuck, you know it.

1163
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,320
It lasted an awful long time and
was quite a successful company.

1164
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,000
Well, hopefully it's stuck
without hurting anybody.

1165
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:48,320
Yeah, I want to get into, you
know, the not only the sale of

1166
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:53,160
the company and how, you know,
what that did to you as a human

1167
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,440
and how you got through the
process and stuff.

1168
01:10:55,440 --> 01:10:59,480
Because I know especially when
you've built a company with your

1169
01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:03,320
own hands and, you know, you've
put blood, sweat and tears into

1170
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,720
it for so many years and you
know, where everything is on

1171
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,400
every shelf and you know how
everything operates in the

1172
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,360
business, it's hard to hand over
the keys to somebody else.

1173
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:18,000
But the other thing you know, I
find and you might have some

1174
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:24,080
input on this is most of our
industry has no succession plan.

1175
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:29,440
And I know way, way too many
business owners right now who

1176
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:34,800
are in their mid to late 60s and
have 0 succession plan.

1177
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,600
And that's a scary thought.
A very scary thought.

1178
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,280
It is a scary thought and I
think one of the reasons for

1179
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:47,680
that is many of us in the
lighting industry don't come

1180
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,520
from a business background.
We come from a lighting

1181
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,240
background.
And so without the business

1182
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,600
background, there are certain
things we have to learn the hard

1183
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:58,880
way.
And I would say that that

1184
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:00,920
certainly happened in my case as
well.

1185
01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:04,280
And, and I, you know, I say
that, you know, I sold the

1186
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:09,040
business to private equity in
2017, but that took ten years.

1187
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,120
That didn't happen right away.
I knew, I knew early on that I

1188
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:20,040
had a small really as far as
industry standards are concerned

1189
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,200
or business standards if you
will.

1190
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:27,480
I had a small privately held
company which would be very

1191
01:12:27,480 --> 01:12:30,800
difficult to transition to do to
new management.

1192
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:33,840
So the first thing I did was I
asked my kids.

1193
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,080
I wanted to see if they were
interested.

1194
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:41,840
I have two daughters and a son
and they they did work for the

1195
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,320
company, but as much or as
little as they wanted to.

1196
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,480
I never had this dream that, you
know, they would take over the

1197
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:51,720
business, etcetera, etcetera.
That was up to them.

1198
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:56,040
I always said to them find
something you love to do and get

1199
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,480
somebody to pay you for it.
Make sure you do both.

1200
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,200
And so they they've been fine.
It's a good.

1201
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:04,960
Lesson right?
There it is.

1202
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:06,960
A good one.
And they've been fine on their

1203
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:13,280
own, but they and I went to my
kids twice over various years to

1204
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,760
see if they were interested in
and they were not.

1205
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,560
And they were doing fine in, in
their respective work that they

1206
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:21,720
were doing.
And still to this day they're

1207
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,280
doing just fine.
So they were not interested.

1208
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:29,360
Then I went to my managers to
see if the managers would like

1209
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:33,880
to invest in the problem was my
my basic team, Chris Schick that

1210
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:39,000
ran the rental side, Joanie
Roker who ran finance, and John

1211
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,680
Seaman who sort of ran the
technical end.

1212
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:44,800
He ended up buying.
We had started another company

1213
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:51,040
by then called Future Light, and
Future Light became in a sense,

1214
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,040
at times in conflict with
Vincent Lighting.

1215
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:58,320
By that I mean there were other
dealers out there across the

1216
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:01,560
country who would have viewed
Future Light as a competitor

1217
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,280
because they viewed Vincent
Lighting as a competitor and

1218
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,160
they knew that.
I own both companies, you know,

1219
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:12,000
and so eventually I sold that
company to John Seaman, which

1220
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,720
was good.
I think it was good for him.

1221
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,000
He still has that company was
good for him.

1222
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,520
We had various products and so
forth that we had created, some

1223
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:24,360
which we had invented from the
rental team, some products that

1224
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:27,240
work there, that work really
well, some that came from Jody

1225
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,080
on the video side.
And then the original product

1226
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,760
which actually came from Van
Phillips at Jones and Phillips,

1227
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:40,200
he was looking for someone to
build a light and orchestra

1228
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,640
shell lighting fixture.
This is well before LED, OK,

1229
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:45,840
Yeah.
So he wanted someone to build an

1230
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,960
orchestra lighting fixture that
would fit in the orchestra panel

1231
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:51,960
and the reflector would
automatically adjust to be

1232
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:56,320
parallel with the floor.
OK, So we we.

1233
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:59,000
Very specific need.
Very specific.

1234
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:02,520
That's what we started with.
We call it the the Future Light

1235
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:06,920
1000 and we started with that
way back in the day.

1236
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,920
That was our first product and
then we created other products

1237
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,760
and eventually sold the business
to John and he still owns it as

1238
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:16,360
Future Light.
And there's no competitive

1239
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:18,760
worries because that's that's
what he owns.

1240
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:23,280
That's the business that he owns
and and he was the kind of

1241
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,400
individual just to be honest
about it.

1242
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:29,800
He was the kind of individual,
but in some ways was better off

1243
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:34,360
being on his own rather than
being part of an organization.

1244
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:37,720
He would drive I.
Understand that as well as

1245
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:41,400
anyone could.
He, he became our operations

1246
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:47,320
manager and at times could be
because he was so analytical at

1247
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,480
times he could be a real
roadblock and you know, because

1248
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:52,600
you know, that can happen in
businesses.

1249
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:58,840
And so we use that as his nice
exit strategy that he bought

1250
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,000
future life.
But he and I are still friends

1251
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,000
to this day.
I greatly respect him.

1252
01:16:03,440 --> 01:16:06,040
You know, I'm very pleased to
have worked with him for so many

1253
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:08,160
years.
And he was the original.

1254
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,560
He was the original when my, my,
the first three people that back

1255
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:16,720
in the day were myself as a
salesperson, Marty Donovan as

1256
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:20,560
the administrative person who's
the first person I had hired,

1257
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,480
and John Seaman, who was the 2nd
person I had hired.

1258
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,400
So he was the technical person.
Marty was the administrative

1259
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,000
person and I was the sales guy.
Wow.

1260
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,640
Interesting.
Anyway, we, the original

1261
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:38,080
management team was close to my
age and so when I when I thought

1262
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,800
about the idea of pursuing them
to become owners of the

1263
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,360
business, they just did not want
to take on the risk.

1264
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:50,560
So that didn't work out then
because we're in the state of

1265
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:52,960
Ohio and Ohio is a good place to
do an ESOP.

1266
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:57,320
I thought about creating an ESOP
and and Kent State University

1267
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:01,080
has a an incubator program.
For for people who don't know

1268
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,200
what that means.
ESOP, sorry employee, I know

1269
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,080
what it is, an employee owned
company basically where the

1270
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,480
employees have stock in the
company basically so they have

1271
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:13,640
an equity stake in the future of
the company.

1272
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:18,200
And when you do an ESOP, you
have to create the ESOP itself.

1273
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:22,400
Usually that's gets funded by
the bank because usually most

1274
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:23,840
companies don't have enough
cash.

1275
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:29,200
So you fund the ESOP, well, you
got to pay that loan back, OK.

1276
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:34,200
The other problem is once the
employees become owners and they

1277
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,640
get vested, they want out.
And if a lot of the employees,

1278
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,000
because I had people that had
worked for me for 20-30 years,

1279
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:43,400
right?
So you had a lot of people.

1280
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:45,640
I'm thinking to myself, how am I
going to do this?

1281
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:49,680
In order to have a an ESOP, to
be honest, to have an ESOP, you

1282
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,760
got to be doing this, right?
You can't be doing this and you

1283
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:55,320
know what the lighting business
is like.

1284
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:57,400
There's a lot.
Of this there's.

1285
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:01,360
Not a lot of this.
OK, you could take ETC as a good

1286
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,200
example of this.
You know what I mean?

1287
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,680
Manufacturer had it going, so to
speak.

1288
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:10,200
Yeah, but boy, on the dealership
rental house side, it's

1289
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,560
difficult to make that happen.
Even on the manufacturer side as

1290
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,080
well, I mean, you know, look,
look at, you know, the job ahead

1291
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,200
of Graner right now.
Like he's he's.

1292
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,280
Got his hands full, you know.
It's no question.

1293
01:18:22,440 --> 01:18:25,160
It's not an easy world out
there, even moving like

1294
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,000
manufacturers.
They've got a pretty good run

1295
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:32,000
since COVID opened to back up,
but you know, there's already

1296
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,280
sort of chinks in that armor
starting to appear as well.

1297
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,800
Right.
So it's it's hard to create an

1298
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,360
ESOP.
Companies have done it, ECC did

1299
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,560
it, Barbizon did it.
I believe they were big enough

1300
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,560
to be able to do that.
I was not big enough.

1301
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:51,360
So two times I tried to create
an ESOP and finally at the end

1302
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,600
of it all after studying it all,
it's over.

1303
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:56,960
They said, no, this is just,
this is not going to work.

1304
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:03,400
And so I went out, I, I got a
business valuation done and I

1305
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:08,680
went out to the capital markets,
if you will, and, and to other

1306
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:11,720
markets.
I, I hired an investment banker

1307
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,320
as they're called.
Never understood that name.

1308
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,200
Why are they called investment
Naters?

1309
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:18,240
Doesn't make sense.
OK.

1310
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:23,760
So they're really business
brokers and so and so he did a

1311
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:25,480
great job.
The guy that I work with did a

1312
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:30,120
really, really fine job and he
put me out there to probably 400

1313
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,640
potential people.
We created a data room.

1314
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:34,920
We give them access to the data
room.

1315
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:37,320
Those that were really
interested in, you know, looking

1316
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:41,400
at it, we put our financials in
there and we didn't identify the

1317
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:45,160
company at the time.
Instead we just laid out a sort

1318
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:50,120
of an 8 page teaser as it's
called, and then we created a

1319
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,520
book.
Well, and, and the reason for

1320
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:57,000
that, like obviously it's very
potentially harmful to a company

1321
01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:00,840
to put a for sale sign on your
front window and your customers

1322
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,840
start getting nervous, your
staff gets very nervous, your

1323
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:06,240
suppliers might get nervous.
So.

1324
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,120
Yeah, I understand why.
You, but I was honest with the

1325
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:10,920
staff.
In other words, they knew they

1326
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,520
they could, they had to know
because by now, you know, I

1327
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,400
think five years had passed or
so and they knew I had tried

1328
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,160
doing the ESOP because I had
involved them.

1329
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:23,920
See, I ran an open book managed
business.

1330
01:20:24,480 --> 01:20:27,840
I had read about that back in
the day and I really liked the

1331
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:32,280
idea of sharing the financials
with the team, putting together

1332
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:36,240
in place opportunities for them
through a four O 1K and through

1333
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:38,640
profit sharing to be able to get
more money.

1334
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,800
Because I, I said straight up, I
said the pay in this business is

1335
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:47,200
not as high as other businesses.
You might find out there be it

1336
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:50,520
computers, programming, whatever
it might be, you can make more

1337
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,120
money elsewhere.
And so I wanted to create

1338
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,400
something where the employees
would be able to gain if we did

1339
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:59,600
well, the employees did well.
That was the whole idea.

1340
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:05,440
And so we were always open book
managed for many years and, and

1341
01:21:05,440 --> 01:21:08,800
we actually worked with a few
other companies in the business

1342
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,880
that I met through ESTA that
were also open book managed

1343
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:17,400
companies.
And so we would trade, you know,

1344
01:21:17,480 --> 01:21:20,200
not secrets, that's not the
correct term to use.

1345
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:23,920
But you know, I would partner up
with businesses out on the West

1346
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,920
Coast, for example, because they
didn't view me as a competitor

1347
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:29,200
and I didn't view them as a
competitor per SE.

1348
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,840
And we'd stay out of each
other's way and not get into

1349
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:34,400
trouble.
And we would benchmark with each

1350
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,560
other.
And that was very useful.

1351
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,400
So eventually.
When you say, when you say open

1352
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:43,000
book managed, you're, you're
basically you're sharing the the

1353
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:47,800
deepest, darkest numbers and and
secrets of the business.

1354
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,440
Like you're basically, it's like
you're talking to your executive

1355
01:21:50,440 --> 01:21:53,040
team in a sense.
Yeah, open book means you're

1356
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:57,160
sharing your financial results
with your team and you're,

1357
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:02,520
you're creating an ownership
culture without creating equity.

1358
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,400
In other words, I couldn't
afford to create the, the what I

1359
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,760
wanted to create an ESOP.
I thought we had the right

1360
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,920
temperature.
We, we have the right out of

1361
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:14,560
values.
All of those things were right,

1362
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,520
but economically we just
couldn't do it.

1363
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:22,080
And so that's why I went out
That's why I got a valuation

1364
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:25,560
done.
I, I, I hired that the

1365
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:29,240
investment banker did not only
look at the valuation, but then

1366
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:33,040
also put it out there to the
marketplace, including, you

1367
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,200
know, some of the competitors in
the marketplace, some of the

1368
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:38,320
larger companies out there that
might be interested.

1369
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,840
And we heard back of the 400.
He put it out.

1370
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:47,360
So we heard back from about 30
and that that list then got

1371
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,480
narrowed down and eventually we
had four different people come

1372
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:55,520
in and two made offers.
One offer was ridiculous.

1373
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:59,600
So we didn't even put another
offer was actually not bad.

1374
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:05,920
OK, so this was in 2008.
Yeah.

1375
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:08,520
And what do we think happened in
2008?

1376
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:10,720
Yeah, yeah, right.
Terrible.

1377
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,520
Terrible.
I got lucky though that it did

1378
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,040
happen of course, and it
affected us, particularly

1379
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:18,840
affected the rental side of the
business.

1380
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:21,400
But I was able to get through it
with the bank.

1381
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,800
The bank stood by us.
We were with, by that time we

1382
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:29,320
had been with National City Bank
for many years, but they got

1383
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:33,880
taken over by PNC.
So it became PNC and PNC and

1384
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:35,240
National City all the way
through.

1385
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:40,560
They treated us pretty well.
In terms of bankers, we know

1386
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:44,760
that bankers are very
conservative, OK, And that's OK.

1387
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:47,680
You know, you got to learn to
work within their rules of the

1388
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:49,680
road if you want to be able to
borrow money.

1389
01:23:50,480 --> 01:23:54,040
And of course, to capitalize
rental equipment, you're going

1390
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,160
to have to borrow money unless
you're so big that you got

1391
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:59,760
enough cash flow coming in that
you don't.

1392
01:23:59,960 --> 01:24:02,680
But most of the time, most
companies out there, they have

1393
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,880
to borrow some money in order to
capitalize this stuff.

1394
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:08,600
So anyway.
And it ain't getting any easier.

1395
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:10,600
No, no, no.
It's not getting any easier, no

1396
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:14,240
question about that.
But PNC was always good with us.

1397
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:17,440
They were good financial
partners, so to speak, even

1398
01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:19,000
though they were a bank and our
bank.

1399
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:24,600
I get it.
Anyway, So what I realized was I

1400
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:29,080
had been AC Corp when I created
Vincent Lighting Systems.

1401
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:32,320
S Corps didn't exist.
They didn't come into effect in

1402
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,640
Ohio until about two, until
about 1987 or 88.

1403
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:40,880
We should have elected S status,
but we didn't.

1404
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:45,280
So we were AC Corp.
Well, over the years, AC Corp

1405
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:49,640
accumulates retained earnings.
And when you accumulate retained

1406
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:54,000
earnings, if the buyer wants to
buy assets, which is the case in

1407
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:57,440
most instances, most companies
out there, whether they're

1408
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,520
private equity or others, they
want to buy assets.

1409
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,400
They don't want to buy your
liabilities, they won't buy your

1410
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:06,440
stock.
In other words, if they would

1411
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:10,040
have bought my stock, it would
have been a tax situation of

1412
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:14,000
capital gains, which back in the
day was 15% and then you had

1413
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,920
stayed at about 4% or so.
And so it was reasonable, you

1414
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:24,720
know, just around 20% well in
buying assets and, and you have,

1415
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:28,160
you have those retained earnings
that accumulate, you get a

1416
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:32,520
double taxation event that
occurs if you're AC Corp and

1417
01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:35,920
therefore the tax rate was about
55%.

1418
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:40,720
And So what wasn't such a bad
deal all of a sudden became a

1419
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:45,280
really lousy deal, really bad.
So I didn't proceed after I'd

1420
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,080
done all of that work and
everything else.

1421
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:50,160
Put everything together, worked
with my team to make this

1422
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:54,120
happen, Brought the people in,
done our presentations, got some

1423
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:59,560
offers, all that stuff.
We said no, Wow, it was a local.

1424
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:01,360
Private tough.
Decision.

1425
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:05,400
It was a tough decision and I
was sad to have to make that

1426
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:09,640
decision after we had what was
really a decent offer and I, I

1427
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,680
went back to them to the private
equity company at the time and

1428
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:15,440
said would you be willing to buy
my stock?

1429
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:19,800
They were not and I said, look,
I'll do everything we have to do

1430
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:23,080
in terms of investigating
everything, etcetera, etcetera.

1431
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,240
I don't want you to get hurt
with the liabilities and, and I

1432
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:30,720
don't think we have very many.
And so no, they wouldn't do it.

1433
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,600
So that was the end of that.
So I decided that that point,

1434
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:39,040
OK, it's now 2009, I'm just
going to take a break from all

1435
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:42,200
of this.
And I did for about a year or so

1436
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:46,000
and I went to USITT and other
trade shows and, and just, you

1437
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:52,120
know, hung out and a few of us
got together and thought maybe

1438
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,360
we could create a merger of
several companies in the

1439
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:58,680
business.
So at the time it was Magnum

1440
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:02,280
Companies.
The son who's a really good guy,

1441
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:05,960
Todd, he's now part of Four
Wall.

1442
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:09,680
But at that time he would have
been actually the largest

1443
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:11,800
shareholder 'cause he had the
most equipment.

1444
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:16,840
He he had the majority of the
cash, so to speak, OK, because

1445
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:20,720
Eric and his wife had done a
really good job and and Todd and

1446
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:23,960
his sister had done a really
good job building the business.

1447
01:27:24,480 --> 01:27:29,080
And so and then in addition to
that, it was production

1448
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:33,600
advantage up in Vermont.
They would, they would have been

1449
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:36,200
the smallest shareholder.
It was Vincent Lighting, and

1450
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:40,000
then it was they changed their
name.

1451
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:46,400
The folks in Milwaukee, the two
brothers, the Stern Keys.

1452
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:53,400
Yeah, yeah, Dennis and.
Craig and Oh I.

1453
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:57,760
Know I know who you're talking
about, but I it's been so long

1454
01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:02,360
since I did business with them.
Yeah, that company still exists,

1455
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:04,720
OK.
Yeah, Main office now down in

1456
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:07,200
Memphis.
They were going to come into

1457
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,840
this as well and they would have
been the third largest

1458
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:15,200
shareholder and we created, we
were, we were, we were pretty

1459
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,760
far along, pretty far along at
that point in time.

1460
01:28:19,480 --> 01:28:22,480
And we had spent a year together
working on this and putting

1461
01:28:22,480 --> 01:28:25,880
something together and everybody
was going to come into the

1462
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:31,480
Vincent Lighting System's
financial and administrative and

1463
01:28:31,480 --> 01:28:35,080
operational end of things.
Basically, they would use our

1464
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:38,160
sales system, they would use our
rental system, etcetera.

1465
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:41,680
Was that because yours was
considered the strongest among

1466
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:45,320
the group or whatever?
It was pretty robust, pretty

1467
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:46,840
robust.
And we were pretty well

1468
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:48,640
organized.
We had a good team of people.

1469
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:52,400
We had a good leadership team.
We had good sales people.

1470
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:56,280
And so that was agreed upon that
that's what we would do.

1471
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:02,120
And the day before we were going
to sign the agreement, Todd

1472
01:29:02,120 --> 01:29:08,440
calls me up and he says I'm out.
And I think it's because his

1473
01:29:08,440 --> 01:29:12,800
local folks, his accountant, his
financial partners, you know,

1474
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:16,400
his attorney, they knew they'd
lose his business, right?

1475
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:19,560
So they convinced him that he
shouldn't do this.

1476
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:24,040
And, and I'm sure also remember
it, it carried the family name,

1477
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,200
so to speak, you know what I
mean?

1478
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,600
And so that was a tough
decision.

1479
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:33,360
And I'm guessing he probably
decided I don't want to lose all

1480
01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:37,720
of that, you know, and, and I
think he became concerned

1481
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,480
because it's Craig and Dean
Sternke.

1482
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:47,280
Dean was going to run sales and
I and and Dean was also an A

1483
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:51,480
type guy.
OK, Now I felt OK with that

1484
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:55,760
because I had dealt with an A
tape type guy in Sam Cercone for

1485
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:59,240
many years.
And, and let's face it, a type

1486
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,800
people have advantages.
They bring good things to the

1487
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:07,040
table if if you can, if you can
keep them under control.

1488
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:09,640
Here's what I mean by that.
I don't mean control them

1489
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:13,720
personally.
I mean, as an example, Sam back

1490
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,680
in the day always wanted to
shoot for the stars.

1491
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:20,040
And I would always have to say,
Sam, we got to get to the moon

1492
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:21,960
first.
If we get to the moon, we can

1493
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:25,240
then get to the planets.
Once we get to the planets, then

1494
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:28,080
we can shoot for the stars.
We can't shoot for the stars

1495
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,040
right now.
Right and.

1496
01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:33,600
That's why, that's why he he was
tired of me holding him back.

1497
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:35,280
Yeah.
Wow.

1498
01:30:35,480 --> 01:30:38,040
The same thing would have
happened potentially with Dean.

1499
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:43,240
Dean was a very hard worker and
a very good salesperson and

1500
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:45,400
would have really pushed the
organization.

1501
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:50,440
And some of my people came to me
and said if if you do this, I'm

1502
01:30:50,440 --> 01:30:52,120
out.
Oh, boy.

1503
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:56,320
Yeah.
Well, so, but what I mean, if

1504
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,440
it's if it's if you're able to
tell me what was the structure

1505
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:01,240
of that?
Like when you're merging 4

1506
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:04,880
companies together, these are
owners who basically want to

1507
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:09,440
sell their company.
So our PR like is a bank funding

1508
01:31:09,440 --> 01:31:12,560
that transaction and then
everyone's taking cash out.

1509
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:16,600
And now there's a new entity
where you might retain some

1510
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:19,600
ownership or some stock in it,
and there's a management team

1511
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:21,560
and a board of directors and all
of those things.

1512
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:22,880
Is that pretty much the
structure?

1513
01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:27,240
All of that was true, except
that remember, you don't have

1514
01:31:27,240 --> 01:31:30,880
that much cash.
So people would have to take a

1515
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:34,880
note, right?
And, and, and the organizations

1516
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:37,440
would be owners of the new
company.

1517
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:41,520
That's what the deal was.
And ultimately, yes, the hope

1518
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,760
was the company would then be
bigger, then it could be sold to

1519
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,280
private equity, then there would
be a payday for the owners.

1520
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:54,440
But that might be 5610 years
down the road now for some of

1521
01:31:54,440 --> 01:31:56,560
the people.
From my viewpoint, I was fine

1522
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:59,920
with that, but some of the
people in the room wanted to get

1523
01:31:59,920 --> 01:32:03,280
out as soon as possible, like
the owner of Production

1524
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,120
Advantage, Penny.
I don't remember Penny's last

1525
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:08,360
name.
Penny wanted out because her

1526
01:32:08,360 --> 01:32:11,480
husband was the one that really
owned and ran the company.

1527
01:32:11,480 --> 01:32:15,880
It was really Schraff, David
Schraffenberger who really ran

1528
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:17,520
the company.
You're right.

1529
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,360
And he was the knowledge base,
so he was going to be part of

1530
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:24,560
the team going forward and his
team of people up there were

1531
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,160
going to be part of the team
going forward.

1532
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:31,240
And they would have handled
standard goods sales as

1533
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:33,880
production advantage always had,
right?

1534
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:39,760
That made the most sense, right?
And then the folks like Dean and

1535
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:43,280
Craig would have handled rigging
because they were already in the

1536
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:46,440
rigging business and they had a
place in the rigging business.

1537
01:32:46,440 --> 01:32:48,560
So they would have handled
rigging and of course lighting

1538
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:51,120
in their various locations.
Right.

1539
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:54,120
I mean, it's a sensible deal.
It all made sense.

1540
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:59,520
And obviously somebody got cold
feet on the eve before or

1541
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:01,360
whatever, and that blew the deal
up.

1542
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,560
The problem is the person that
got the cold feet would have

1543
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:06,880
been the largest shareholder.
The largest one, yeah.

1544
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:11,880
The largest amounts of bankable
assets to the table and

1545
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:15,920
therefore I was bringing the
bank in and showing my bank PNC

1546
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:20,120
here's what will happen these
are the assets coming in we need

1547
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:23,960
you to finance this and they
were willing to do so it was

1548
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:27,160
fine until.
It wasn't quite as good once.

1549
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:29,480
Magnum pull up.
I had to go back to the other

1550
01:33:29,480 --> 01:33:32,040
folks and say, folks, we can't
bank this.

1551
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:34,080
I don't have a way of banking
this.

1552
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:36,840
I don't have enough assets.
You don't have enough assets.

1553
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:42,960
So then ultimately Fast forward
and and you sort of restarted

1554
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:47,160
the program well again.
Yeah, after, after that didn't

1555
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:50,400
work, I was really tired, let me
tell you.

1556
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,520
So I decided again, let's take
another rest.

1557
01:33:54,360 --> 01:34:00,240
And I just got lucky.
One of the people who was going

1558
01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:05,640
to provide mezzanine financing
for the deal in 2008 called me

1559
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:10,080
up one day just out of the blue.
I was on vacation up in Michigan

1560
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,720
with my wife.
And he calls me all of a sudden.

1561
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:18,600
And he says, by the way,
whatever happened with your

1562
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:20,680
deal?
And he was a pretty interesting

1563
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:27,080
guy because his, his family, if
you will, created a foundation

1564
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,080
that I think came from Murphy's
Oil Soap.

1565
01:34:31,480 --> 01:34:34,000
OK.
And so they had a lot of money

1566
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:37,800
in, in Cleveland behind them.
And we had done a big project

1567
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:41,240
that they had financed.
It was at a local Catholic

1568
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:43,720
school.
And we had provided the theater

1569
01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:49,400
lighting system for them.
And that's partly how they knew

1570
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:51,280
of us.
But that family they'd.

1571
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,120
Written checks to you.
They knew your name.

1572
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:56,000
They wrote your checks.
They wrote checks to somebody

1573
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,320
who then wrote checks to us.
I see.

1574
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:02,040
Yeah, it went, it went through a
construction manager, right.

1575
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:06,560
So anyway, but it all turned out
well, it was they were very

1576
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:09,560
happy with the equipment that's
still working to this day.

1577
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:11,920
They've added to it.
They're still a customer,

1578
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:15,560
etcetera, etcetera.
So anyway, he's a really good

1579
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,840
guy and, and he calls me what
happened?

1580
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:19,560
And I explained to him what
happened.

1581
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,040
He said, well, that's, that's
really interesting.

1582
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:25,200
But I can tell you I have three
or four people that you know,

1583
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:29,240
might be interested in doing
this with you because the play

1584
01:35:29,240 --> 01:35:31,600
that I had was, you mentioned
this earlier.

1585
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:36,520
I, I'm a child of the 50s and
60s, right?

1586
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:42,200
So I'm an old guy, right?
I'm part of that generation.

1587
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:46,600
And there are a lot of baby
boomers out there that started

1588
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:49,640
businesses about the same time
that I did, right?

1589
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:54,480
And I identified for the capital
partner that was coming in, I

1590
01:35:54,480 --> 01:35:59,000
identified about 20 different
businesses that I thought they

1591
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:03,000
could pursue if they so chose to
do that.

1592
01:36:03,480 --> 01:36:06,440
And I laid it all out.
I put a whole plan together of

1593
01:36:06,440 --> 01:36:11,240
how you could basically put this
group of companies together to

1594
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:16,520
do a roll up in essence of
small, smaller size dealer

1595
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:20,240
companies in our business.
That was the idea.

1596
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:24,640
And so this guy calls me up, he
says you, you still have that

1597
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:27,600
plan.
And I said, yes, it's just as

1598
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:30,760
much could be done today, just
as much as it was would have

1599
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:35,320
been done in 2008 and so.
Except everybody's 10 years

1600
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:36,880
older now.
Eight years older, yeah.

1601
01:36:37,200 --> 01:36:40,960
That's, that's correct.
And so he said, well, let me

1602
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:43,360
introduce you to a few people
and he did.

1603
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:47,520
And one of them was Canterbury
capital, Bob Onjad and there

1604
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,520
were a couple of others.
I talked to all of them that

1605
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:54,760
that he had brought forth and as
it turned out, he works for

1606
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,320
Morgan Stanley.
He's been very successful.

1607
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:01,440
And so and I like him a lot.
He's a really good guy.

1608
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:09,000
So his name is Peter Carfagna.
And so I basically pursued this

1609
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:14,800
and once again, I got about 03
different legitimate offers.

1610
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:20,520
I did evaluation, if you will
recall, Mike Griffith had

1611
01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:24,320
started a company along with the
gentleman that passed away

1612
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:26,920
recently.
Oh, I forget what his partner's

1613
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:29,520
name was from, ETC.
They were both from ETC.

1614
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,840
Yeah, shoot.
And he, he Mark, Mark was his

1615
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:35,280
name, but I don't remember his
last name now.

1616
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:38,520
I'm sorry.
Anyway, they, they did a

1617
01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:41,160
valuation for me, which I
thought was great because it

1618
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:44,080
came from within the industry.
OK.

1619
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:48,600
And, and it wasn't just based
on, you know, you compared to

1620
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:52,160
other companies out there, you
know what I mean?

1621
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:56,600
Because how many companies in
the theatrical lighting business

1622
01:37:56,600 --> 01:38:00,280
are publicly traded companies?
Not very many.

1623
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:03,920
OK.
So, so I wanted to be, you know,

1624
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:08,480
part of the group that of the
not very of the of the very many

1625
01:38:08,480 --> 01:38:10,840
rather than the not very many,
if you know what I mean.

1626
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:17,440
So anyway, we did this valuation
with with Mark and with Mike

1627
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:22,760
and, and, and Mike also had a
relationship with the folks at 4

1628
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,320
Wall and SO4 Wall was in there
too.

1629
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:32,200
But four Wall ultimately at the
very last end of it all, they

1630
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:35,560
ultimately dropped out because
they viewed that, you know, most

1631
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:38,840
companies that get in the rental
business, they're 80% rental,

1632
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:44,680
right.
And we were really more like 60%

1633
01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:52,240
project business, 30 or 20%
products and then the rest was

1634
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:56,120
rental and production, right.
So that wasn't a model that at

1635
01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:58,000
the time?
Rental was a small part of your

1636
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,800
business, yeah.
And he didn't like that the, the

1637
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:04,760
owner at the time, Mr. Cannon,
Mike, you know, he didn't like

1638
01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:07,600
that very well.
And I understood that and and

1639
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:10,080
and, and Bill Rayner was working
there at the time.

1640
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:12,600
So once again, our paths crossed
together.

1641
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:16,200
He and I had sort of painted a
picture together of how we might

1642
01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:18,600
become part of Four Wall.
OK.

1643
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:23,280
It didn't happen ultimately
because again, if we were a much

1644
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:25,880
larger rental company, it might
have been different, but we

1645
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:27,720
didn't have enough rental
assets.

1646
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:29,360
And I think that was their
viewpoint.

1647
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:32,720
We were very strong in project
sales without a doubt.

1648
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:36,760
To this day, still the case,
same case, very strong project

1649
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:39,240
sales.
So anyway, it didn't happen

1650
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:43,360
with, with them, but Canterbury
Capital took an interest in the

1651
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:49,720
whole idea and they, they were
willing to buy my stock and

1652
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:54,920
that's what made it work because
it became a capital gains tax.

1653
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:58,880
Now I had to retire the debt,
you know, etcetera.

1654
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:02,120
But nonetheless, they bought my
stock and I had gotten our debt

1655
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:06,280
down from about $1,000,000 down
to about half a million.

1656
01:40:06,480 --> 01:40:10,640
So that was good.
And and so it it made the whole

1657
01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:14,640
equation work.
And it, it in general terms, it

1658
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:20,440
worked pretty well, except,
except I had to go to my people

1659
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:25,520
eventually and say, OK, we're
going to be bought by this

1660
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,960
private equity company.
You all need to recognize it's

1661
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:34,400
not Paul's world anymore.
This is a financially based

1662
01:40:34,400 --> 01:40:36,880
company.
They are interested in financial

1663
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:39,520
performance.
That'll be their number one

1664
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:42,000
thing.
It wasn't my number one.

1665
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:44,840
I kept reinvesting in the
company, though.

1666
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,440
At some point, they're going to
want to take cash out.

1667
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:50,080
Right, that's.
What private equity is all

1668
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:52,120
about.
They don't buy companies to make

1669
01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:54,920
them smaller, no or less
profitable.

1670
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:57,000
Correct.
They're a little different from

1671
01:40:57,000 --> 01:40:59,480
most private equity in that they
buy and hold.

1672
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:03,120
So they try to buy good
companies and then make them

1673
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:07,120
better, not to spin them off
right away after five years or

1674
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:09,600
seven years.
Instead, they're long term

1675
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:11,280
folders.
Yeah, they want to increase

1676
01:41:11,280 --> 01:41:15,560
earnings, not necessarily the
top line valuation of the

1677
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:18,600
company or whatever, even though
that goes up with earnings, but

1678
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:21,520
that's that's correct.
And so that's the deal we did in

1679
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,480
2017 and it went through.
It was good.

1680
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:28,480
Harder than anybody I know in
the industry to sell your

1681
01:41:28,480 --> 01:41:29,840
business.
That's incredible.

1682
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:32,040
What a story.
It was the right thing to do

1683
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:35,880
though, there's no question.
In my mind, a while ago, you

1684
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:39,000
said that you went to all three
of your kids and said, you know,

1685
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:41,880
are you interested?
And you went to them twice and

1686
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:45,920
they said no.
And what a great response in a

1687
01:41:45,920 --> 01:41:49,160
sense, because imagine how much
worse it could have been if they

1688
01:41:49,160 --> 01:41:52,280
said yes but meant no.
You know what I mean?

1689
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:55,640
Like they, they answered
correctly, but their heart and

1690
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,960
soul wasn't in it at all.
And that's, that's my son,

1691
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:02,480
'cause my son keeps dabbling
with coming into my business,

1692
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:04,760
but I know it's not what he
loves, you know?

1693
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:07,320
It's not where his heart is at,
you know.

1694
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,800
I gotta tell you one more story
about this cause the one area

1695
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:15,680
that I didn't tell you, the
other thing I tried to do was I

1696
01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:20,920
decided to make an attempt to go
down to the next generation of

1697
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:24,480
managers at Vincent Lighting.
And I did that.

1698
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:29,080
And I, I had a guy at the time
that I had a, a good deal of

1699
01:42:29,080 --> 01:42:33,000
trust in who I thought could
manage the financial side of it

1700
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,720
all for me.
And, and he by then had become

1701
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:39,200
our, our, our vice president of
finance.

1702
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:42,640
So he was going to be taking
over for Joni, who was going to

1703
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:45,600
head toward retirement.
That was the theory.

1704
01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:50,240
OK, interesting guy.
One of the best people I've ever

1705
01:42:50,240 --> 01:42:53,240
seen in terms of creating
financial statements, looking at

1706
01:42:53,240 --> 01:42:56,960
the past.
But he was very audit oriented

1707
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:03,320
and I didn't really realize how
much so at the time, but he was.

1708
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:06,360
So I created four other
managers.

1709
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:09,280
I took four other younger
people, younger sales people.

1710
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:13,040
Some of those folks still work
for the company today, but I

1711
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:16,400
tried to go down to the next
level because they were younger.

1712
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:20,120
And we created a deal.
The same thing happened.

1713
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:24,840
We had a deal the day we're
going to sign the deal, OK?

1714
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:29,680
This guy who was the financial
guy, he was their spokesperson.

1715
01:43:29,680 --> 01:43:32,040
Basically he had agreed to the
deal.

1716
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:36,240
But that day he says, well,
we're not going to do it this

1717
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:38,280
way.
This is the way we're going to

1718
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:40,960
do it.
Basically they wanted me to

1719
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:44,760
continue because you know, back
in those days and even some

1720
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:49,000
today most of cases in small
privately held businesses, the

1721
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:52,680
owner has to sign for credit.
You're going to sign personally,

1722
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:55,040
right?
And I had signed personally and

1723
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:58,760
I had gotten that, I had gotten
that responsibility over time

1724
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:02,880
down, you know, from half a
million to 250, eventually to

1725
01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:05,240
one and a quarter, you know,
etcetera.

1726
01:44:05,480 --> 01:44:07,520
And eventually I got my myself
off.

1727
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:12,200
But then in the bad financial
end that hit in 2008, 2009, it

1728
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:13,960
all reversed.
Back up again, right?

1729
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:17,240
And so I had to sign again
personally, but I had even got

1730
01:44:17,240 --> 01:44:20,240
that down a little bit, not off,
but a little bit.

1731
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:23,480
Well, what he said to me is, OK,
we're going to do this.

1732
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:25,960
We got to do it as a note.
And I knew it was going to be a

1733
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:28,240
note from the company.
That was the company would buy

1734
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:31,920
back my stock and the company
would pay me out for that stock

1735
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:35,440
over time.
OK, I was prepared for that.

1736
01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:39,320
That was OK.
But then he wanted me to back

1737
01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:43,200
the whole deal personally.
So in other words, he wanted the

1738
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:48,560
playground, he wanted all the
toys in the playground, and he

1739
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:53,280
wanted me to, in essence, back
the financing of the playground

1740
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:56,720
and the toys, right?
I said, I'm selling.

1741
01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:00,080
I'm selling the company.
That's not how it works.

1742
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:03,320
And he was convinced, Oh no,
that's how it has to work.

1743
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:05,600
And I said no, no, no, that's
OK.

1744
01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:08,400
This is not happening.
So that was the end of that.

1745
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:09,960
That was another one I had
tried.

1746
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:14,880
Wow, wow, yeah, you literally
worked harder than anybody I've

1747
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,040
ever spoken to.
Cause I've helped some

1748
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:19,600
companies.
I've done like during COVID I

1749
01:45:19,600 --> 01:45:22,680
helped a company do a roll up.
They bought five or six

1750
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:26,000
companies out there and I
introduced them all and help get

1751
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:27,640
those deals pushed through and
stuff.

1752
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:33,840
And you know, it's never easy.
And you know, right now, if

1753
01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:37,960
you're in a certain window, like
there's a sweet spot where one

1754
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:41,760
of a few conglomerates will buy
you, But if you happen to be

1755
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:44,760
outside that sweet spot, it's,
it's a whole different ball

1756
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:46,920
game.
So, you know, we're not going to

1757
01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:51,320
have a ton of time, But I, I
wanted to ask you in particular,

1758
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:56,680
your thoughts on capital needs
in this Business Today and even

1759
01:45:56,680 --> 01:45:59,960
at a larger level.
So, you know, one of the things

1760
01:45:59,960 --> 01:46:04,400
that I constantly complain about
on behalf of company owners,

1761
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:09,880
rental company owners, is if you
go back to like the 90s, you

1762
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:14,600
bought an Intelibime for 2500,
call it $3000.

1763
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:19,360
You bought an Intelibime, you
rented it out for about $250 a

1764
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:25,000
week for years.
It was rented solid and in two

1765
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:29,280
or three years, you could sell
it for $3500, right, More than

1766
01:46:29,280 --> 01:46:34,520
what you paid for it.
And, you know, it was such a

1767
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:38,840
successful model, like where you
were able to buy this thing, pay

1768
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:43,720
for it in half a year or less,
and then continue renting it out

1769
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:45,960
and then sell it for full value
at some point.

1770
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:50,320
And Bob Cannon was the master of
doing that very, very well.

1771
01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:52,520
I don't think I ever saw anybody
do it better.

1772
01:46:52,720 --> 01:46:55,600
And it's where Mike Cannon
learned his ropes as well.

1773
01:46:55,600 --> 01:47:00,160
And we talk about it all the
time, but today you have a

1774
01:47:00,160 --> 01:47:05,280
moving light that costs $10,000.
You're renting it out for 200 a

1775
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:10,480
week, you know, in many cases.
And it never pays for itself.

1776
01:47:10,480 --> 01:47:14,800
And they launch a new model, you
know, one year into you trying

1777
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:20,400
to pay for that light.
Like, is there going to come a

1778
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:27,000
time when normal privately held
businesses cease to exist in

1779
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:30,320
this industry?
Well, I think the model that

1780
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:32,800
you're talking about is not
sustainable.

1781
01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:35,240
There's just, there's no
question about that.

1782
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:39,640
And I'll, I'll use an example
and I wish Bob Amjad, who's the

1783
01:47:39,640 --> 01:47:42,800
president of Canterbury Capital,
who were listening to this,

1784
01:47:43,040 --> 01:47:48,440
because I told him a similar
thing, basically because the way

1785
01:47:48,440 --> 01:47:55,320
he was financing his deals was
he would in essence be using the

1786
01:47:55,320 --> 01:47:59,280
company that he just bought to
help finance the deal.

1787
01:47:59,800 --> 01:48:02,760
And what I said to him was,
problem is you're tying our

1788
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:05,120
hands.
If, if we have to finance the

1789
01:48:05,120 --> 01:48:08,680
deals or other deals going
forward and you don't provide

1790
01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:11,440
all the financing and instead
you're going to go to a bank.

1791
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:15,000
And what I mean by finance means
those assets then are already

1792
01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:18,120
tied up because you got a bank
loan in order to get those

1793
01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:20,680
assets.
Well, he wants the bank to tie

1794
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,200
up the assets again.
Well, that doesn't happen,

1795
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:26,440
right?
And, and he's convinced that

1796
01:48:26,440 --> 01:48:29,000
this is a good way to finance
these deals.

1797
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:33,440
And, and I'm not surprised.
And of course, the one thing I

1798
01:48:33,440 --> 01:48:38,400
will tell people about private
equity, they know everything.

1799
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:41,680
You don't know anything in their
mind.

1800
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:45,160
And that's how it was here.
I had 40 years of experience

1801
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:46,720
and.
And.

1802
01:48:47,120 --> 01:48:50,520
Once they started doing the
finances, they come to me each

1803
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:52,200
month.
And we've gotten to the rigging

1804
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:54,760
business by then too, right?
Which was really important.

1805
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:58,120
We had a really good guy, Herman
Sayre, who now works for, ETC.

1806
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:01,160
But he had, he, he helped us get
into the rigging business.

1807
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:04,560
And so he would, they, they
would come to me every month.

1808
01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:07,280
He and his guy Blake, they'd
come to me every month and

1809
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:09,400
they'd say, OK, who are you
going to lay off?

1810
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:13,640
And I'd say, excuse me, you just
show me the financials.

1811
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:16,840
So I first I'd like to absorb
that information, but I'll tell

1812
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:18,920
you right now, I'm not going to
lay anybody off.

1813
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:22,640
They had hired me as president
of the company, right?

1814
01:49:23,120 --> 01:49:27,120
And my thought was, well, I'll,
I'll do five days a week, four

1815
01:49:27,120 --> 01:49:29,760
days a week, three days a week,
two days a week, one day a week.

1816
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:32,640
Well, about a year into it,
after this, you know, coming to

1817
01:49:32,640 --> 01:49:34,640
me every month, ask me who I'm
going to lay off.

1818
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:36,120
And I'm saying no.
Every time.

1819
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:39,520
I realize after a while they're
going to tell me to get lost.

1820
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:42,480
So I'm going to get myself
replaced as soon as possible

1821
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:46,920
with someone else from this
industry who has worked with

1822
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:49,680
private equity.
And who do I think of Bill

1823
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:50,760
Greener?
He's the.

1824
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:55,160
Perfect guy, the old standby.
Well, but, but he had, he had

1825
01:49:55,160 --> 01:49:57,360
done so many different things in
the business.

1826
01:49:57,520 --> 01:50:00,680
He and I got to know each other
back in the day when when he was

1827
01:50:00,720 --> 01:50:03,840
with Strand lighting back in the
day.

1828
01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:09,240
You know, I'm talking about
19801981 And so he was a good

1829
01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:12,760
guy because he had also worked
for Four Wall and he knew

1830
01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:16,680
Michael Cannon well and he
understood the world of Private.

1831
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:20,520
Equity, Yes, yes.
Yes.

1832
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:24,640
So I thought he'd be perfect
and, and I said I just

1833
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:26,720
recommended him.
They, they interviewed him at

1834
01:50:26,720 --> 01:50:29,480
Canterbury and they hired him
and they were glad that they

1835
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:31,000
did.
And he stayed for three years

1836
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:34,440
and he did a good job and then
moved on and someone else came

1837
01:50:34,440 --> 01:50:38,120
in and took over, didn't
necessarily do a great job.

1838
01:50:38,120 --> 01:50:40,440
Now there's a new president
that's coming on.

1839
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:44,000
And I like this guy.
I think I've, I've offered all

1840
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:45,920
of them.
Like Bill and I, we still have a

1841
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:47,160
Zoom meeting every month.
Oh wow.

1842
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:48,800
That's cool.
Just.

1843
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:50,800
Because we're friends just to
say hello.

1844
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:52,320
How you doing?
How's your family?

1845
01:50:52,440 --> 01:50:54,760
What's going on?
How are things at Altman?

1846
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:57,440
You know, all that stuff.
And he'll ask me the same.

1847
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:00,880
I have so many people I do the
same thing with, you know, it's

1848
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:04,560
just comparing notes on the
industry or on whatever, Yeah.

1849
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:10,200
But you're right, this, this
method of financing, you know,

1850
01:51:10,200 --> 01:51:14,120
the other thing you got to keep
in mind, which I know maybe you

1851
01:51:14,120 --> 01:51:17,960
relate to, maybe you don't.
I, I'm not sure, but remember my

1852
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:22,320
company was in what I call C
level cities for the

1853
01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:26,680
entertainment world.
Yeah, Now A4 wall or a bash,

1854
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:32,560
they're in A level cities.
New York, Las Vegas, LA those

1855
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:35,080
are A level cities for the
entertainment business.

1856
01:51:35,080 --> 01:51:36,480
It's a different.
Business, yes.

1857
01:51:36,480 --> 01:51:40,360
And then there's B cities like
Chicago, Dallas, those are

1858
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:43,320
Boston even even though it's a
smaller city than Cleveland.

1859
01:51:43,560 --> 01:51:47,360
It's it's Boston is a
entertainment Mecca and has been

1860
01:51:47,360 --> 01:51:50,480
for a long time.
So I consider Boston AB city,

1861
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:53,720
OK, or Washington, DC, et
cetera.

1862
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:57,160
Those are Atlanta.
That's AB even now close to an A

1863
01:51:57,240 --> 01:52:00,720
city in Atlanta or Orlando, FL,
right?

1864
01:52:01,120 --> 01:52:03,320
That's an that's an A city, no
question about it.

1865
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:06,160
You got Disney and all the other
people down there, the theme

1866
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:10,600
parks, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm in B cities, Cincinnati,

1867
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:14,640
Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit.
Detroit's a pretty big city.

1868
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:18,120
It's still a a sea city, so to
speak, for the entertainment

1869
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:19,040
business.
I'm talking.

1870
01:52:19,040 --> 01:52:19,560
I get it.
Yeah.

1871
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:22,480
Yeah.
So you can imagine how long it

1872
01:52:22,480 --> 01:52:23,520
takes.
Yeah.

1873
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:27,000
Maybe you get you.
Maybe you'll get that 250 a

1874
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:28,160
week.
OK.

1875
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:30,640
But you're not going to get it
for.

1876
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:34,760
Not every week.
No, no, you're going to do short

1877
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:38,360
term rentals, man.
It's hard to finance equipment

1878
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,240
on a short term rental basis.
Yeah, yeah.

1879
01:52:41,320 --> 01:52:44,800
You know well.
You know, Paul too, like some

1880
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:48,560
people I consulted on who were
buying some companies, you know,

1881
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:50,880
they were putting these
financial models together and

1882
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:53,160
showing them to me.
And, and I would say, where's

1883
01:52:53,160 --> 01:52:55,440
the CapEx?
And they'd say, what do you mean

1884
01:52:55,440 --> 01:52:57,480
the CapEx?
And I said, well, you know, if

1885
01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:01,200
you're going to buy a company
for $5,000,000 and, and they're

1886
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:05,560
doing, you know, 10 million in
sales or 8 million in in in

1887
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:09,160
rental revenue, you're going to
need to figure out what the

1888
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:10,920
percentage is.
And it's going to depend on the

1889
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:14,000
market.
It could be 20% annual, 25%

1890
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:17,000
annual, but a percentage of that
revenue is going to have to be

1891
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:21,440
invested back into CapEx.
Well, why does does the

1892
01:53:21,440 --> 01:53:24,360
equipment age out?
And I said, not only does it age

1893
01:53:24,360 --> 01:53:27,080
out, but there's this whole
fashion thing that happens to

1894
01:53:27,080 --> 01:53:30,320
where suddenly there's a better
model and all the designers spec

1895
01:53:30,320 --> 01:53:35,080
that one and trying to explain
to these people CapEx models for

1896
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:37,440
our industry.
And the fact that if you're

1897
01:53:37,440 --> 01:53:41,560
buying a company, you have to
leave enough money in play

1898
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:46,440
because you can't expect this
company to suddenly have CapEx

1899
01:53:46,440 --> 01:53:51,120
capital to invest out of cash
flow because you know, you've

1900
01:53:51,120 --> 01:53:54,720
taken over their bank line,
you've taken all the debts gone

1901
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:57,880
or you've repurposed the debt
and and you now own the debt or

1902
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:00,040
whatever.
But it's not like they suddenly

1903
01:54:00,040 --> 01:54:02,960
have this magical cash pile that
they're going to find in the

1904
01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:08,080
backyard or something.
So it's amazing that companies

1905
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:11,680
rolling up, other businesses
will expect to do that without

1906
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:13,840
putting CapEx in play.
That's right.

1907
01:54:13,840 --> 01:54:17,080
If they're outside this
business, they just don't see it

1908
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:20,280
and they and you try to explain
it to them, they just don't get

1909
01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:22,480
it.
No, because the gear should last

1910
01:54:22,480 --> 01:54:25,440
forever, you know, and, and in
some cases it does.

1911
01:54:25,440 --> 01:54:28,200
I mean, I know some rental
companies out there who have

1912
01:54:28,440 --> 01:54:30,600
Intelli beams in their rental
stock.

1913
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:36,280
Not very many, thank God.
But you know, our industry is

1914
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:40,120
very capital intensive, very
capital and doesn't work the

1915
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:42,640
same way.
Like I know a private equity

1916
01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:47,160
group that I consulted with a
little bit who compared us to

1917
01:54:47,160 --> 01:54:50,280
the car rental business and was
showing me the model, the

1918
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:52,320
financial model for car rental
business.

1919
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:55,760
It doesn't work.
You know, it's not the same

1920
01:54:55,760 --> 01:54:58,520
business.
Like the way the rental works,

1921
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,280
the rate of rental that you're
getting back and then the sale

1922
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:05,680
price on the car is much more
predictable and, and, and it's

1923
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:08,840
safer than our industry.
Like our industry, sometimes the

1924
01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:12,440
sale price is 40% of the
original purchase price.

1925
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:15,640
So you're going to lose 60% on
the value when you go to resell

1926
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:19,280
it, you know, I mean, it's so
anyways, yeah.

1927
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:20,640
Well, when you complain about
that.

1928
01:55:20,680 --> 01:55:23,120
All day.
It means it's bankable.

1929
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:28,720
And the problem is in our
business, it's very difficult to

1930
01:55:28,720 --> 01:55:31,520
get the bank to give you the
line of credit that you need to

1931
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:36,080
do CapEx in any reasonable way.
And let's face it, even in these

1932
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:40,400
sea cities that I talked about,
we were putting 300 grand a year

1933
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:44,240
into, into capital equipment.
And that's not nearly as big as

1934
01:55:44,240 --> 01:55:47,400
say, a Broadway house like a
what, what production arts

1935
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:49,920
probably used to do and
certainly what Bash and what

1936
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:52,480
four-star back in the day used
to put in.

1937
01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:56,880
They, they do more than but but
they could get their money out

1938
01:55:57,360 --> 01:55:59,680
over time.
They could, they could show a

1939
01:55:59,680 --> 01:56:03,840
business model that would work
and and they got enough money

1940
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:06,800
that they didn't even
necessarily have to depend on

1941
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:10,160
banking.
Banks were not that important

1942
01:56:10,160 --> 01:56:13,840
back then, not not like they are
today, you know it.

1943
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:16,720
And then the other thing while
we're complaining about these

1944
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:20,360
private equity deals, the way
they operate or whatever is, you

1945
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:23,320
know, I was talking to an owner
recently who's looking to sell

1946
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:25,800
his company and he's talking to
a private equity group.

1947
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:30,160
And he said to me, you know,
what's it like once I sell the

1948
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:32,680
company?
And because I'm signing on with

1949
01:56:32,680 --> 01:56:35,240
them for three years, which is
pretty common, right?

1950
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:39,160
And I said, well, you know,
you're not the boss anymore, so

1951
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:40,680
don't think you're going to be
the boss.

1952
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:43,480
Like you're going to have to ask
mommy and daddy for permission

1953
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:49,280
for everything you do from now
on #2 whatever they're paying

1954
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:52,120
for your company, they're going
to pay it in cash probably.

1955
01:56:52,560 --> 01:56:54,880
But then they're going to go
finance that.

1956
01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:58,240
They're going to go get a bank
to give them their cash back.

1957
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:00,720
This is how these private equity
groups operate.

1958
01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:03,400
They're going to want to take
their cash right back out of

1959
01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:06,560
that deal and now they still own
the majority of the equity.

1960
01:57:06,800 --> 01:57:09,560
The business itself is strapped
with that debt.

1961
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:13,880
So if you have an earn out or if
you still own stock or whatever

1962
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:16,840
it is, just understand that
whatever you're selling the

1963
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:21,000
business for is probably going
to show up as debt on the books,

1964
01:57:21,040 --> 01:57:24,040
if not today, very soon in the
near future.

1965
01:57:24,440 --> 01:57:27,640
And I've seen way too many deals
that are structured that way.

1966
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:31,440
Way too many deals.
And you'll have to pay

1967
01:57:31,440 --> 01:57:33,960
exorbitant management fees to
the private.

1968
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:38,040
Exorbitant, exorbitant, and I'm
not knocking private equity, it

1969
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:42,240
serves a purpose when you have
customers who are renting

1970
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:46,840
thousands of moving lights and
thousands of square meters of

1971
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:52,320
these video screens and, you
know, 3 or $4 million line array

1972
01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:55,360
systems and stuff.
Somebody's got to pay for that,

1973
01:57:55,440 --> 01:58:00,240
you know, and the the sad thing
for me is it's doing away with

1974
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:02,120
the Vincent lightings of the
world.

1975
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:05,280
The mom and pop really great
businesses that are the

1976
01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:08,360
foundation of our industry are
disappearing.

1977
01:58:08,720 --> 01:58:10,880
And again, I'm not knocking 4
wall either.

1978
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:12,880
You know, four wall serves a
great purpose.

1979
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:14,680
It's a great business in many
ways.

1980
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:17,680
And by the way, I'm sure you've
heard, but it's very close to

1981
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,240
being sold.
So, you know, and this is the

1982
01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:24,560
other thing, like, you know,
your private equity company that

1983
01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:27,480
you sold to Canterbury, they
they're a buy and hold.

1984
01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:32,680
Most of them are not, most of
them are buy, grow, flip and

1985
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:36,800
they're going to want to get
probably at least three X on

1986
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:40,960
their money.
And they it all like there are

1987
01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:43,800
private equity groups that work
really well from zero to 100

1988
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:48,800
million in value, then there's
some from 100 to two 5250 to 500

1989
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,000
and so on.
They're different private equity

1990
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:54,320
groups that focus very
specifically on that range.

1991
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:58,040
And so when you get to 250,
you're getting sold to the next

1992
01:58:58,040 --> 01:59:02,040
level of private equity group
and you know, it's just an asset

1993
01:59:02,040 --> 01:59:05,120
that's changing hands and and
going up to the next level.

1994
01:59:05,640 --> 01:59:09,600
And so, I mean, there's a need
for it, but.

1995
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:12,760
Well, I find it interesting.
I find it interesting.

1996
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:15,480
I, I think you're absolutely
right about that analysis.

1997
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:19,520
And I think that Four Wall is
owned by Odyssey.

1998
01:59:19,520 --> 01:59:22,920
I think I couldn't be right.
And they're, I think they're the

1999
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:25,920
number 2 private equity group in
the country.

2000
01:59:26,160 --> 01:59:29,720
So I don't know exactly who
they're going to sell to, but

2001
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:32,400
maybe they're going to sell to
the number one private equity

2002
01:59:32,400 --> 01:59:35,120
company, I don't know.
From what I understand, it

2003
01:59:35,120 --> 01:59:38,400
started as a pretty big list,
somewhere around 25 or 30

2004
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:42,000
different buyers and over a
period of a year, it's been a

2005
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:45,480
very rough year.
You know, I've heard all kinds

2006
01:59:45,480 --> 01:59:48,320
of things, which I won't repeat
here, that some of which I know

2007
01:59:48,320 --> 01:59:55,880
are true, but it's now down to
two potential suitors and likely

2008
01:59:55,880 --> 02:00:00,400
one.
And, you know, The thing is some

2009
02:00:00,400 --> 02:00:04,000
of these deals get done when
both parties become a little bit

2010
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:06,800
unhappy with the deal.
Like it's not usually one side's

2011
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:09,960
really happy, the other side's
really unhappy or both are

2012
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:12,240
really happy.
They're usually both a little

2013
02:00:12,240 --> 02:00:15,040
uncomfortable with it.
And I think they're getting to

2014
02:00:15,040 --> 02:00:17,480
that point now where where it's
very close.

2015
02:00:17,480 --> 02:00:22,480
I'm, I'm hearing it should at
least be announced at some point

2016
02:00:22,480 --> 02:00:27,880
before the end of summer and and
should close, you know, not that

2017
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,600
long after.
And from my opinion, it needs to

2018
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:34,600
happen because the old whole
industry is holding their breath

2019
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:39,760
for the last year based on, you
know, just four wall obviously

2020
02:00:39,760 --> 02:00:42,240
isn't spending the CapEx that
they normally would.

2021
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:47,640
That hurts the manufacturers.
They're maybe not paying as fast

2022
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:51,800
as they normally would.
Pardon me, I'm gut the tail end

2023
02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:54,760
of a cold here.
And that's hurting the

2024
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:59,360
manufacturers, customers,
employees, everybody's on hold.

2025
02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:03,600
So it's problematic.
So it needs to get done.

2026
02:01:03,840 --> 02:01:05,200
Hopefully it closes.
Soon.

2027
02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:09,160
I wish them well, hope it works
out.

2028
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:10,480
I mean, again, I'm all
concerned.

2029
02:01:10,760 --> 02:01:12,720
Everybody loves to hate the big
guys.

2030
02:01:12,720 --> 02:01:16,680
Everyone loves every time PRG is
going through some pain or

2031
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:20,680
whatever, our industry doesn't
want the big guys to crash

2032
02:01:22,320 --> 02:01:23,800
because that hurts so many
people.

2033
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:26,840
It gathers, it's like a, a
tornado.

2034
02:01:26,840 --> 02:01:29,720
When a tornado builds, it grabs
all that air around it.

2035
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:33,600
And that's what happens when,
when big businesses crash Enron

2036
02:01:33,600 --> 02:01:36,760
and companies like that.
So the Enron in our industry is

2037
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:40,000
PRG.
And you know, when PRG and VER

2038
02:01:40,000 --> 02:01:43,120
came together, that solved a lot
of problems and created some

2039
02:01:43,120 --> 02:01:46,680
other ones, you know, and the
same thing will happen with this

2040
02:01:46,680 --> 02:01:51,120
four wall thing thing, you know,
because they'll now have a

2041
02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:53,000
larger private equity group
behind them.

2042
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:55,680
They'll buy a bunch more
companies, they might buy

2043
02:01:55,680 --> 02:01:57,360
another big one.
And I've already heard the

2044
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:03,640
rumors of who that might be.
And so, yeah, I mean, again, for

2045
02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:08,080
me, the bottom line is just that
smaller companies with lots of

2046
02:02:08,080 --> 02:02:12,640
attitude and lots of personality
and character are going away and

2047
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:17,160
becoming sucked up by these
private equity groups or, or

2048
02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:19,760
just being crushed by by the
large companies.

2049
02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:22,080
And I don't like it.
It's it's kind of boring.

2050
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:23,920
It's making the industry more
boring.

2051
02:02:24,640 --> 02:02:27,600
So unfortunately I'm running out
of time.

2052
02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:30,240
I actually wanted to talk to you
a little bit about your thoughts

2053
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:33,120
on the future of the industry
and product and, and all of

2054
02:02:33,120 --> 02:02:34,800
those things.
Maybe we'll have a follow up

2055
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:37,120
discussion at some point in the
future.

2056
02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:39,960
Now that I know you've got all
this free time, we can talk.

2057
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:43,520
Well, that would be fine.
You just need to remember,

2058
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:48,120
although I try to keep up on
things somewhat, I Emma has been

2059
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:51,880
so.
But you're a smart to stay true

2060
02:02:51,880 --> 02:02:54,560
to that, you know.
Yeah, you're a smart, has been,

2061
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:56,720
you're a smart guy.
You know, you know what's going

2062
02:02:56,720 --> 02:02:58,680
on out there.
You know where we've been, where

2063
02:02:58,680 --> 02:03:02,520
we've come from and and you're a
smart guy.

2064
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:04,680
So I do value your opinions and
stuff.

2065
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:08,040
So what do you do to keep busy
now other than all these boards

2066
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:09,360
and stuff that you're on or you
still?

2067
02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:11,480
You used to be a big diver,
right?

2068
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:13,560
A scuba diver I think.
Yeah, yeah.

2069
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:18,280
Still do some scuba diving, but
that's tailing off a little bit.

2070
02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:22,680
You know, I'm 72.
I'll be 73 in December, so it's

2071
02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:27,320
time to slow that down.
I do my score volunteer work.

2072
02:03:28,520 --> 02:03:32,280
My my wife is a Master gardener.
She's the number one master

2073
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:35,920
gardener in Ashtabula County.
Even though there was such a.

2074
02:03:35,920 --> 02:03:37,360
Thing, yeah, sounds like some
yummy.

2075
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:43,080
Salads are in order though.
There are that part is that part

2076
02:03:43,080 --> 02:03:45,320
is good.
We, we and this year has been an

2077
02:03:45,320 --> 02:03:48,720
interesting year of growth in
terms of crops.

2078
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:52,520
The lettuce, we've we've
harvested lettuce I think three

2079
02:03:52,520 --> 02:03:54,800
times.
We've harvested kale three

2080
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:57,240
times.
We've got tomatoes.

2081
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:00,080
You know it's and this is early.
Why is that for Ohio?

2082
02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:01,560
Why?
Why is it so different?

2083
02:04:02,920 --> 02:04:08,120
Because it was so hot early, we
had a lot of sun and we've had

2084
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:11,560
enough rain and, and plus I'm
her waterboy.

2085
02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:17,720
So, so, so I keep up with that.
In fact, if it's, it's clouding

2086
02:04:17,720 --> 02:04:21,360
up, I can see the clouds because
this condo that I'm in is our,

2087
02:04:21,360 --> 02:04:23,960
it's our getaway place.
Most people go down to Florida,

2088
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:26,480
right?
Or somewhere warm and wonderful.

2089
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:29,080
I love Lake Erie, so I stay up
here.

2090
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:30,920
Good for you.
Good for you.

2091
02:04:31,440 --> 02:04:32,880
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it's like me, I,

2092
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:36,040
you know, people are wondering
why I rush away to a colder

2093
02:04:36,040 --> 02:04:38,160
place up in the mountains.
And it's because I live in a

2094
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:41,280
really hot place on the ocean.
Or I don't live on the ocean,

2095
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:44,960
but next to the ocean in South
Florida, and you look for the

2096
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:47,560
furthest thing away.
But plus, I was raised here and

2097
02:04:47,560 --> 02:04:50,920
my family are all still here and
stuff, so it's a nice place to

2098
02:04:50,920 --> 02:04:52,640
come to.
But.

2099
02:04:52,960 --> 02:04:55,720
Nice for you man, time with.
You and you as well.

2100
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:58,240
Very nice catching up.
I haven't seen you in a while

2101
02:04:58,240 --> 02:05:02,240
at, at at shows and stuff.
And so it's nice to see you and

2102
02:05:02,240 --> 02:05:05,200
and talk to you and hear a lot
about your story that I didn't

2103
02:05:05,200 --> 02:05:06,560
know.
So I appreciate you sharing it.

2104
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:10,080
My pleasure, I hope you have a
wonderful day.

2105
02:05:10,560 --> 02:05:12,400
And you, Paul, and take care of
yourself.

2106
02:05:27,240 --> 02:05:27,440
Yeah.