#245 - Bob Harmon - Eggshell Lighting Company

0:01 Hello and thanks for joining me today on Gears of Gear episode #245 Today's podcast is brought to you by Roe. Visual Roe is the leading LED creative display manufacturer in the industry. With adaptive LED platforms for every installation, they're committed to going the extra mile for any creative vision. Carefully selected high end components, the latest technology, in depth knowledge and passion go into every product that bears the Roe name. Being familiar with the challenges of their market, Roe offers only the most intuitive solutions for the creatives, designers and technicians who rely on their LED products to deliver a flawless performance every time.

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1:48 Visit avlmediagroup.com today. Well, hello there and welcome back. Thanks for joining me today. I appreciate it. It's going to be another fun one. We have Bob Harmon on today and I'll go through his bio and stuff in a bit.

2:35 But most of you listening probably know Bob and have seen him at many, many trade shows, seen him when you're doing shows in Hawaii, seen him on our weekly Zoom calls during COVID, doing the most incredible show and tell. An incredible storyteller, a great friend, great guy, one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. But of course, my favorite topic lately has been AI. So I'm not gonna disappoint you. Music creation. I've been looking at some of these tools and you know, I've shared some of this information with you already. I wrote a couple jingles or wrote, I basically prompted a couple of AI programs to write some jingles for my company and those turned out really well. We have a couple of Geezers of Gear ones. Maybe I'll share them with you next week. And funny, I actually shared it with Sarah, our producer, who you probably remember very well.

3:37 And Sarah, like me, is a bit of a technology nerd. She loves new tech and just figuring out what to do with stuff, how it works. And one thing you don't know about Sarah is that her husband is an IT guy. So he's a tech nerd as well. And so I, I shared a couple of these music AI programs with Sarah. And now her husband has been serenading Sarah with love songs that he has created using these AI apps. So it's pretty funny in some of the big AI news that I've been reading about this week, you may have heard about this one.

4:17 There's a fight between Sam Altman, the CEO of Open AI and ChatGPT about this thing, which is quite funny actually. So they've been demonstrating their new ChatGPT 4 OO stands for Omni, as I recall. And there's some really cool new features and I'm just starting to get some of them because most of them are in beta and some of them will become released to paying customers, which I am one. And so I'm starting to get some of the features, but I don't have the full voice yet. And so there's some really new voice stuff where it's practically creepy.

4:58 I mean, you can go and look for some of the, if you search for ChatGPT 4 O demos, voice demos, you'll get, you know, there's these, it's almost like you know, these future dating apps or something where it's a girl who laughs at all your jokes and tells you, you look pretty today or you look nice today or that suit is nice or whatever. There's a thing where you know he's wearing a hat and, and he's getting ready to go for an interview and the ChatGPT bot tells him, you know, that hat probably isn't very cool to wear to an interview. You should probably take it off and because you can have your camera on while you're using this new version of ChatGPT.

5:41 And so he takes his hat off and and then she says, well, maybe you should just kind of run your hand through your hair. You look a little bit messy. And so it's a bit creepy. But the story here with, with Scarlett Johansson is that she was propositioned by Sam and ChatGPT or open AI to become the voice of ChatGPT on this app. And it was because of her movie that she was in, I think it's ten years ago, 2013 or something called her. And I don't know if you remember it, but her was basically all about this stuff. It it was somebody who fell in love with, with an AI bot.

6:25 And and so she was the voice for that bot. And so, you know, I think it was almost like a, a funny thing that Sam thought it would really, be really cool to make Scarlett Johansson the voice for this new version of ChatGPT. And her people, I guess just didn't respond or they said no or something, but they didn't want to be a part of it. And next thing you know, Sam Altman's coming out with this promotion for the new version of ChatGPT and there's a reference to her like in quotes and they don't talk about the movie or anything, but but they they pretty bluntly say her.

7:09 And of course the voice sounds exactly like Scarlett Johansson. So now Scarlett and her people, her lawyers basically are going after ChatGPT and and open AI saying that you basically generated my voice instead of using my own voice and me coming in and recording something, you generated my voice, you copied my voice and now you're using my voice and you're even referencing it with this her thing. And so God knows she's probably going after them for a billion dollars or some massive number. So that's pretty interesting stuff. But I do recommend you check out some of these videos demoing ChatGPT 4 O and it's creepy.

7:59 It's a bit creepy. I mean, I'm finding some really helpful things with it. The just the the general AI assistant thing, the fact that it's it's going to become a very smart assistant to me will be very helpful. But some of the creepy stuff is creepy. And I definitely don't deny any of that. Microsoft Teams, my least favorite, you know, video chat service or whatever. I despise when people invite me to Teams meetings. But Teams has this new thing called copilot, which was designed to, I guess, manage meetings, projects, tasks, all kinds of things.

8:45 I haven't seen it yet, so I can't tell you how good it is, but people are talking kindly about it. Something that's not getting such kind response is Microsoft also created a new tool called Recall and it claims to have photographic memory and there's a reason behind that. It stores screenshots that it takes of your screen. It captures screenshots every couple of seconds, I guess. And of of course, experts and, and security people, safety people say that it's a privacy nightmare. And I can imagine that. I mean, think of some of the things that are on your screen at different times and you know, you don't tell it when you want it to take screenshots.

9:28 It just keeps taking the screenshots. You can turn it off, it is voluntary, but I can't imagine turning it on, to be honest. Like, yes, if you look at it from 1 standpoint, it could be very helpful that, oh, when did I do that thing? What did, what did so and so say to me or whatever. It can recall all of those things, but it can also recall all of the things you don't want it to recall. And I'm not necessarily talking about porn. I'm talking about anything, you know, private conversations, whatever mistakes. So, and then another one that I saw that was kind of interesting is something called Ask AI from a company called Superhuman, which allows you to basically ask any question of your e-mail service. And like, for example, you know, what time are my, is my flight on Thursday or what time is my meeting with Bob or what did my wife tell me to get from the store? And it will find it fairly instantly anywhere in your e-mail, very useful.

10:38 I mean, I could imagine using that 100 times a day where you don't have to go digging through e-mail. And even though e-mail search has become pretty good now, just the fact that you could just talk to your phone or your computer and and have the answer instantly seems pretty impactful. So yeah, that's sort of my AI update today. A couple of things that Sarah wanted me to talk about. So ACT Entertainment next week, which by the time you hear it, it's still next week from June 7th to the 9th, they will be at Cinegear Expo in Los Angeles. Check out all their Grand MA three session info and register on their LinkedIn page. Not sure much more about that.

11:26 So, yeah, our sponsor ACT Entertainment will be at Cinegear Elation, who sets the industry sustainability standard with nearly 1000 solar panels powering its global headquarters in Los Angeles, CA and incorporating cutting edge LED technology into its products. So Elation, that's, that's big. I mean, thousand solar panels powering their their headquarters. That's pretty cool. I didn't even know that. And I'm very friendly with Mr. Loder. He should have told me and also just impact social media is having for geezers of gear for our podcast, even Tiktok, which I can honestly say I have no part of. I don't know anything about Tiktok, but I know Sarah's been on top of it is really, you know, getting a lot of plays for us.

12:21 So when you see these little short clips, the YouTube Shorts, the reels on Tiktok, we're getting 1002 thousand views on most of these clips. And you know, that's more exposure for our guests and certainly more exposure for our sponsors as well. So we love it. So today's guest, Bob Harmon, is one of the nicest guys in the industry. You know you've made a mark in the industry when Bob approaches you at a trade show and hands you a bag of incredible Hawaiian coffee. Bob started his first business at 12 years old and founded Eggshell at 16. This year, Eggshell celebrates 50 years. Eggshell Lighting Company has been a boutique production company holding the light and visual needs for all who graces their shores.

13:16 They combine the sublime methods of lighting from the world theater with speed and efficiency of touring roadshows, an award-winning combination that ensures their clients get the quality of services they demand. I gotta tell you, I think Sarah was drinking when she wrote this. From the smallest, most intimate wedding to a large scale televised concert, they are confident that they can give you the perfect experience. We've all had the pleasure of having Bob on the podcast. We have had the pleasure of having Bob on the podcast twice already. The first time in November 2019, episode 58 and then again in November 2023 episode two O 6.

14:01 So today we can celebrate 50 years of the Eggshell Lighting Company with Bob. So please welcome Bob Harman. Mr. Bob. Aloha. Aloha. How are you? Awesome. I know you've been sick, so I appreciate you taking some time and coming on and doing this. You seem like you're feeling a bit better, so that's good. I'm always chipper when I'm on your show. Ah, you're always chipper anyway. I don't know that I've ever seen you grumpy, but I'm sure you get there. Well, Joe, I got some ideas today and I would say I I was inspired because I came across a guy that, yeah, uh oh, I'm freezing.

14:54 Where did you find him? Who? What guy is this and how did you find this guy? No, I, well, I, I, I looked at a like a turn of the century. It was modern art. It was an abstract and I thought that's pretty cool. And I, well, I want to know more about this guy. I guess he was born in the 1800s and well, the guy's name is Wasley Kandinsky. Well, there's a name. Yeah, that's just a mouthful. Let me let me share a screen. I'm going to show you a picture of this, please. Yeah, do it and I'll tell you why. We have to explain pictures, remember, because there are a lot of people and, and Eric Loder is one of them. And we'll hear from him if we don't explain what? Because some people just listen, right? And he listens in his car on the way to the office, so. OK, so let's try this.

15:42 So here's this guy and his artwork is is in the background in the way again, he was he was born in 1860s. He ended up going through Russia and then and transferring to Germany. But the most interesting thing about this guy? Well, one second. So there's there's a a header at the top of the image right above his name that says color is a power which directly influences the soul, which is quite a statement. It is, it is now, you know, personally in the in the world of lighting and that kind of thing, I can listen to music, particularly when I have no background to it at all and have to listen to it and try to figure out how to do lighting.

16:25 Images will come into my head. You know, the idea of certain colors or how I would think initially to present this would come. But the background on this guy is another step that I can't even imagine. This guy has an affliction or had an affliction, synesthesia. And what that meant was he would have more than one sense attached to another. So when he would hear sound, he would see particularly music, he'd see color. And he became a musician so that he could play music and create color in his mind. And from that influence is where his artwork comes from. That's wild.

17:14 I just don't know whether anybody else, maybe even somebody in the industry has this 'cause even though it's rare, you know what an affliction to have. So I. Mean, especially in our industry, like could you imagine a a lighting designer or a lighting director who hears music and it immediately translates into color and what that would look like? I mean, wow. So I was reading earlier about this and so that kind of became a theme for for this thing today is abstract and unusual and asymmetrical lighting and things. So this image we're looking at now, this is one of his art pieces. That's one of that's one of his art pieces, but they would explain it to me that as he would draw certain circles and certain colors, he would shear different tones.

18:02 Yellow in particular would be trumpets and there would be in A and as he hit the stroke of the ink or the pen, it would create an elongated note. And so to him, I would think this is sheet music. Yeah, yeah. That's a really interesting concept. So looking you're suggesting that looking at this image, which is filled with shapes and circles and lines and triangles and things, different colors, he would be looking at this and as he's reading through it, it would become a piece of music. I think that's correct. And I, and I suppose you could dart your eyes from different parts of music and it would just, it could be jumbled or it might make sense and maybe that would lead to another piece of artwork.

18:55 It's wild. And maybe this is where the AI of lighting design will go. That's an interesting concept. It is. It really is. But I wonder if this was something that inspired him or haunted him. You know what I mean? Like, is this something that that drove, you know, great music to come out of him or it made him crazy and, and, you know, wacky music came out? Yeah, that's a really good question. But he he certainly pursued it as a career and it wasn't his first career. I noted that he became a lawyer and he just he gave up all of that background when he was inspired by my music. He. Seems seems like a natural progression, you know, but So what is there any recorded music that he's got out there that like have you found any of his music yet or just just the images?

19:47 I just. Just the images and the the affliction that he had. Yeah, I have never heard of this before, but it kind of takes me to a whole different subject and that is. There's a lot of things in lighting that are purely symmetrical and it, you know, if you're doing a, a television show or something and they, they want to know where certain lights are in certain places. And sometimes that's encouraged 'cause they, you know, then the TV guys just go and do their own thing. The thing is true with stage lights and the light, but as people try to fill the screen of a video screen, or maybe they're a laptop, maybe they're they're using previous and that kind of thing and they're they're creating lighting design.

20:36 It's like they've got a canvas that must be filled, which takes me to the as a subject of are people losing the impact of a single light? And I'm going to take you there in a second because one of the really early things I ever saw, and I hadn't really picked up doing lighting yet, but it was the first time I noticed lighting for what it was. So Cat Stevens played in Honolulu, and this, you can see it's 1974. It's in May. By the way, my first concert room with me running aboard would be September. So this is obviously triggering me to a direction. Yeah, well, he's obviously at the top of his, you know, his game at this point in time.

21:23 But the simplest thing I saw was he he went over and he played at the piano and a cathedral window appeared behind him. And it wasn't that unusual to have a lico that would have a cut out of a cathedral window for the sake of a set. The interesting thing was how they did it, and this is how they did it. They used two separate licos. They shuttered off half the image in each one. They made sure that this Liko picked up the front face and the nose of Cat Stevens, and this one picked at the back of his head, The two joining to be a simple composite in the background now, with the audience providing haze at the time. If you know what that means, what better? In in effect, a picture window appeared, light broke from the window and parted around Cat Stevens. So much workout, and it's the power of a single light. How'd you get this information?

22:28 Because I saw the two Lekos on the stage and I had on stage in front and I put it together and I went, Oh my gosh, that's wild. That's when the Light went on for me. So, you know, the other thing is going back to filling the screen because we're so used to, you know, filling it up that a lot of people forget that the absence of light, black is a color. And to have something break that light can be the most impactful thing. You know, there's, you know, it's one of the things and moving lights and the like. And you could actually do this with the moving light that had shutters nowadays. But at the same time, would you stop for a minute to think the impact of that moment could be created and that that's all you need, kid? And that's something that could be missing for the intro or something anyways.

23:24 That's such a subtle but very cool concept. I mean, you know, two Lycos with that sort of half a shutter. Yeah. Is what a what a cool idea. And like you said, I mean the impact that it had on total darkness created such a cool. That's awesome. I love. It absolutely. So that took me down this whole train. You know, honestly, you know, a couple hours ago, I wasn't exactly sure where I was going. I wrote down disjointed things I wanted to say to you today and to do. I like that. I like that at the same. Time I I started going into So what are the things that are out-of-the-box that isn't symmetrical and you know today's, you know, today happens to be Thursday.

24:12 It may not be when you see this, but yeah, you know, I write stories on Thursday, so this is one of them, right? Was was on Nick Scholam. Nick Scholam was and still is. He's still alive. He's in London, wherein we're still friends. But he sent this plot to me. And by the way, this is early enough. This is 9. You know, this is the 9192 tour. So this is done on a on a simple Mac that I would have and I would piece print one page at a time, piece it all together, hand fill the information into these lights. But you as you can see and I think are you able to see a cursor? Yes, of course. Great. So you had this beautiful, you know, just Bank of of lights down the side.

24:56 Of course these are 6 bars pars 60 fours. Moving lights aren't quite a thing yet. Truss spots are real and even those are placed asymmetrically. And the interesting thing was he took the six bars and they went oh, what a pain. You know, they're meant to go in pre rigged trust and pop out. I mean, I got to pull them out and hang them 90° yes, that's what you need to do OK, got it. So and he did this so that lights would, you know, you've seen this in modern day when you see particularly, you know, Korean musicals and and shows where the lights are just everywhere because the lights seem like they're more economical and easier, but they just draw you into the stage.

25:37 And that's what this was all about. And yeah, it was it was kind of magical stuff. So this is where the light went on for Ace Asymmetry. It was also one of the first times, you know, he talked it. We'd we'd done backdrops before and they'd be they were always straight. He had us put in an extra motor so that it would bend around and give us more dimension for people viewing stage the offset. And I'm going back to simplicity. One of the things he had me do, it wasn't really unusual to have like pars that light up a Truss and in this case they had color changers. But the most the more interesting thing was he had me these this is pre rig Truss. Now he had me take two plates of wood, pass pass it through, you know, with with bolts through that opening. That would be, you know, the open space and the pre rig so that I could take a mirror mylar and paste it to both sides of it so that the one light would shoot one way and reflect back again instead of having to put another fixture here and having a Dead Space.

26:43 And it worked brilliantly. It's just simple things that that that work. So. Yeah, I love that. The asymmetrical, you know, I'd love to see pictures which I am wondering if they're coming next, but I'd love to see pictures of how that actually looked. I I can't find any shots from this this time period, but I'll tell you where that bummer is is that that certainly was an inspiration for me. So I started doing things that were in asymmetry. I, I work for the brothers Casimiro here. Now the brothers Casimiro, yes, they, they were two brothers and one played a brilliant guitar and he could play flamenco and he and his brother played an upright bass together.

27:30 The two of them just had magical voices. And of course there'd be hula dancers and everything else. Now their producer, who also recorded their their records, was a gentleman by the name of John Demello. He, he gained the nickname Cecil B Demello because his shows were unbelievable and they were just pieces and parts. Sometimes it would be giant pieces of material that would fly off. Other times we would just, in this case, I started hanging a Truss and he didn't like trusses. So I, we started lighting the roof and do doing break UPS and I would just, I, I got this Truss and I reset it up at an angle and that was great.

28:14 And we put a, an industrial fan that would be on one side and we did that backlight and that had its effect. He, he went out of his yard and he got this leaf and that too needed to be part of it. So this got me on this whole train. By the way, I think this is out of work. Nick Scholen that that I mentioned earlier, but then I started because of Nick, I started designing shows that look like this. Now this. Is I like that. Yeah, this is simple. Martin Lights yearly, you know, yearly Max, if you will, and pars. But the pars are loaded to one side. The drape is pulled on the opposite side, kind of in balance, but nothing in balance and, and, and layered as you can see this this backlight is lighting this gentleman and he's in its foreground because of the angle of this light.

29:04 And the other two band members are are lit from the side. And that's me doing this show. And you can see even the Pars bringing fleets of lights in so. I like that look. That's cool. So it's it was, it's simple. And this is stuff I started doing. So now because of the Nick Sholom story and because that was Sting, I started thinking about the police and I did the police's first concert. I'm not sure if it was in America, I can't verify that entirely, but it sure seems like it was one of the first if nothing else. So we're going to do a show at the campus center.

29:47 You know, I'm going to go offline with the pictures, so I can just talk to you about this for a second. Hold on a second, because I think that's important. So campus center ballroom and I'm and I'm still quite young and, and I've been asked to do this group called the police and we're we're sitting there going, well, this is great. We all know they're hits, you know, like walking on the moon and stuff, but how do they set up? How many guys are in the band? And I looked around the room at the promoter and 10 other people and for gosh sakes, nobody actually knew. And you know, the assistant to the promoter said, well, we need to get on that right away.

30:33 So that takes me to here. I'm going to go back to this takes just a second. I'm sorry. That's funny though, that they didn't know. No, no, we, we don't have a clue. So that takes us to this. So this shows up at my door like two days later after I've gone to this meeting. There's A at my door. And, and you know, in those days, I'm probably scared of it. And it's TNT freight, which would later be absorbed. I can't remember by whom, but may think it was Federal Express. Could be wrong, but TNT is J Robert Harmon there.

31:18 And of course, they hadn't announced they were from TNT yet. All the more. I'm a little paranoid. Yeah. And. And he says, this is for you. And he hands me this envelope and you open this up and it says a special message from A&M Records for the attention of J, of Robert Harmon. And this is the first page as it comes out. I don't know if I can go in on this, but this guy's definitely an executive. How can I help you? This I, this is kind of a strange 70s background, the non corporate mentality. It says down here, by the way, I love that. So then that takes us to here, the drawing, the band.

32:03 Oh my goodness. Andy. And the record company sent you this. I think. I think Sting wrote this. I think he. Drew this in the backroom because who else would care about an M89 sitting over here and this is the base rig and lead and the rest of it. So I'm sitting here. They had gone so much effort to send this to me. I was, you know, I'm really impressed now going Oh my gosh, they, you know, they got, they sent this to me overnight. This must have cost them. I would say probably 2 or $300.00 and you have to multiply that times the time period and I think they spent a grand to send this to me. Have you, have you ever thought to have the handwriting analyzed on this or anything just to try and figure out if Sting wrote it?

32:56 It's an interesting question. I don't know, but it's also it's also like written in this first in the first person like Andy as opposed to yeah, guitar over there. But anyway, so I'm inspired and I'm trying to figure out what can I do for these guys. It's still conventional light time, but I've got the license to light the screw and they're cutting edge. So I took a crank up lift and a security mirror. Now I took that security mirror and I put it in at a 45° angle hung from a crank up permit. And yes, I know vermits have an awful reputation, but this is back then, nobody cares. So I had somehow, which I can't remember, came across the engine mount for ADC Nine maybe?

33:51 Probably the DC-6. Happened to have one laying around. I just, I just came across one. So anyway, so it's across 45° angle on a cranked up lift. The base of the that lift buried under the stage of, of the drum stir Copeland. I, I mounted this, this aircraft ring and it had fixtures mounted to it and it had this mirror that was there and around Copeland's set up. I had strip lights. Now I hadn't realized exactly what I created, but we're going to come back to that for a minute. Now I had I really like the look of very narrow parts and you know, they because they were the brightest thing in the room and have turned vertically.

34:39 They were a thin shaft of light and, and, and wide. It could kind of cut a rectangle a bit. So anyways, but I, I have a limited amount of lights and I've got them on some, you know, TV antenna tower crank up front Truss and in the back I've got this lift and on the floor I've got these very narrows. And what I did is I would shoot them up at this mirror. It's convex. So now what was a tight beam makes splashes of color out into the audience because it's now it's diffused and it's big and it's wide. And I pick up guitar solos and or sting at his microphone also by banking it off the mirror.

35:29 Now the and so you'd have the intensity of the very narrow shooting up at the thing and you'd have these whites or these colored splashes of color coming off of it. They thought it was really cool. And, and it was pretty heap and, and, and even more so in the fact that the mirror was there at a 45° angle in the world before iMac, people could watch Stewart Copeland play the drums from above and, and they were mesmerized by that. And it was really good. Anyway, I got, you know, I was invited upstairs after the event and there's kind of an open air place. They use it as the backstage space for these guys.

36:12 And they gave me this and this is their promo record. Oh my goodness. Wow. And you can buy this. Years later, when he played Honolulu, I asked him to sign it. That's cool. So that's where that went. Wow, that's really cool. Asymmetrical leads to, you know, to all kinds of things and, and I guess I was doing things that were out-of-the-box to begin with, so I was kind of ready for it all. Yeah, that's really cool. Let me ask you something though. The show but I wish I had a better one. But you can see how young they were. Oh yeah, that's wild.

36:52 Yeah, Look at Andy. Let me ask you something, though. Like have you ever tried to take a story like that and sit down with a young lighting person who's in their 20s who's only ever done shows with moving lights and with MA consoles has never seen anything other than that, right. Well, yeah. And and explain to them how you went about that and why you went about that and the effect you were able to produce. And how do they respond to that? Because like, I could just go grab a a Roby BMFL and do the same thing in two seconds, you know, or whatever. Right. Well, yeah, and, and I, I think that was my point. And you know about all this is that you've got the impact of one light. But if you're really worried about. Oh, yeah, I saw that other that video and stuff, and there were all kinds of lights and that kind of thing. There's a tendency to want to do that. Yeah, to try to replicate that.

37:51 And I think people miss the power of a single fixture. The if I didn't have that and I had wanted to bring mirrors into play to do things, that would be, you know, not the first thing you would think to do. And I think those are those things are lost. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. Well, and I mean with, with the advent now of AI, so many things are going to be lost, like just the process of finding things and researching and learning and all that stuff. If I can just go to every answer instantly, I'm not going to go through the journey of finding those answers and all of the sort of ancillary things that I learned along the way, you know are going to be gone and I. Agree with that.

38:44 Yeah, You know what I mean? It's it's sort of the whole topic of, you know, life is is a journey, not a destination. And maybe, maybe imagination and knowledge is a journey, not a destination. And so maybe that's the downside of AI and all of this instant. Well, I think as soon as it becomes something that you watch like television, then then you're, you're the machines are teaching you, you're not, you're not going through how can I build this for myself? The, you know, the art side of it might start to go away, I suppose. They're not. They're not teaching you. They're giving you the answer.

39:25 Yeah. Oh, yeah, That's even worse. Yeah. And I used to think it was kind of going to school had the limitation of a teacher's curriculum would teach you certain things. But no offense, but how I started, which was I had to build the lights and that type of thing gave me a different perspective. And that's been super valuable. And I don't think you learn that in class because the class has to be accessible by the greatest number of people. And the success of that. And now you, as you've mentioned, now AI is actually supplying you the answer. I, I hope we don't become Dumber for it. I I hope we can, we can maintain.

40:07 Its limitations and utilize it as a brainstorming thing perhaps. Yeah, I think it depends on the person. It depends on on the goals that you have in getting information or things from AI. You know, I know from my standpoint and people who listen to me will argue this because they, they might think that I'm an idiot. But I become smarter by way of AI because it, it gives me, it, it makes me more curious and it makes me, you know, I'll give you an example. So there was a guy on, on Joe Rogan, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago, last week. His name was Rizwan Verk.

40:50 And I had to look at it 'cause I would have forgotten his name again. But he spoke for probably two or three hours mostly about something that I don't know if you've probably researched and written Thursday stories about this, but the simulation theory and are you familiar with this whole topic? I'm not you're. I'm fascinated. Go ahead. Yeah, it it's, it's AI can only take you so far down this journey. But basically the simulation theory says that we are all living within a simulation. And you know, this isn't like real world like we think it is. We're living in a simulation. And so this guy's not a nut.

41:31 This guy, this guy's an incredibly smart individual. You know, he's very, very successful. He, he I think, was a creator of video games and coding video games and stuff and sold a couple of companies and got very wealthy and became a, a venture capitalist, you know, the typical Silicon Valley story. But now he teaches in, in, you know, the biggest and brightest universities about simulation theory. And so I'm learning about this and there's this thing called, I think it's called Schrodinger's cat. And it basically it's a concept that says that, you know, you put a cat in a box with some poison and something that activates the poison or something, I can't remember the whole story, but basically.

42:16 And then, you know, somebody opens the box a period of time later and you find out whether the cat is alive or dead. And so, so, you know, a lot of the scientists behind this say that the cat is neither alive nor dead until someone opens the box. And. So that's, that's at the foundation of it is, is the cat is suspended in this sort of both alive and dead or neither alive nor dead. And, and then they take it even further, you know, and it, it, it just becomes this sort of concept. So I'm listening to this for like, I usually listen to podcasts or books on my walk.

43:00 I go for a five or Six Mile walk every morning and I listen to stuff. And I got home and I couldn't shut it off 'cause I was so interested in it. So I listened to this for like 2 1/2 hours. And then the next day my girlfriend puts on this Apple TV show and they start talking about this Schrodinger's box on this TV show. And I'm like, what the hell just happened here 'cause I had never heard about any of this stuff. And now all of a sudden I'm watching a series about it and it's called, I think it's called Dark Matter or Dark something. It's actually a pretty decent show. But I actually started watching that the other day. And actually when she started talking about what the subject matter was, I hadn't, I didn't know the names that you had.

43:43 Yeah, but I had I was reading about the concept of. Of yeah. Realities and everything. Listen to this guy. I'm telling you like this this guy is is I still think it's a nutty concept, the whole simulation theory concept, but I don't know, man. He starts convincing you that it's, this is probably very likely here, you know, and it does away with a lot of The Big Bang Theory and the Adam and Eve and, you know, all of this other stuff because, you know, the whole thing is a simulation. And so, yeah, it's nutty. It can really take you down a path. But so where?

44:27 Where else did you go with this? Where else did I go with this for, for today? I think that's pretty close. I think the, the, the whole idea is, you know, I started going what, what has been an advantage to me in in life, And I would say my father and mom were, were kind of creatives, but not creatives. I mean, I've talked to him before. He's he was into so many different things and started so many different businesses and the like that. I think the most powerful thing I got I was ever taught was I was never told you.

45:11 Now you can't do that. And I think that's a limitation to so many that once you can just go, well, I might not be able to because I don't feel like it today or, but I never would stop to go. Well, it's, it's a matter of money. Well, I I'm done with that. I found. One and I found. Ways to build things and and yeah, I think I think the concept of never learning no a huge, huge power. Yeah, no, it's, it's totally true. I mean, you know, breaking the conventional ideas of doing things, you know, like the, the asymmetrical lighting design, you know, and I, I love it. Like I when you, when you look at some of those images that you were sharing and, and hopefully anyone who's listening to this will go back and watch it on YouTube or, or Spotify. But when you look at some of those images, like I, it makes me bored of symmetrical designs.

46:16 Like it makes me want a whole bunch of moving lights on one side and a few park hands on the other side or some follow spots on the other side or whatever. You know, I like it. I think it's a killer look. It's a really cool look. Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think it's, it fits with you're telling the story, you know, the musicians are telling you their background, where it comes from. If for a moment it's shadowy, that's OK. Chattery might be the inspiration in a, in a bar or in a, in a place where somebody was when they thought it through. It is, it is true that so much, so much is done for video because the audience, you know, there's 1000 cameras in the audience and the like. And I hear it, you know, all the time where musicians, you know, immediately get pictures of their own concert sent back to them.

47:10 And they and they're not well lit to see their entire face. They have a, you know, they have something to say about that. But I can tell you, the shadowed face of Cat Stevens, is it correct to say that you could be hundreds of feet away and without the benefit of imag and your mind filled in that moment that you shared with him? Yeah, and it's totally true. Yeah, it's totally true. Some. Of that's getting lost. So much of it is getting lost like, but I mean lost or evolved. I don't know, you know. And, and equally, I think you can take a huge, huge stage and you can still have that concept.

47:56 I'm not saying everything should come down to 24 pars again, but I but I am saying that I think you can have 1000 lights in your rig and for a moment a single light can carry the day. Yeah, and maybe then you have to even come back from it. But if you want the audience to quiet. Down yeah, you know, I agree with you. I I honestly, and as much as I'm in the business and you're in the business and I've been in the moving light business for a long time, I'm getting bored of these thousand moving light shows. You know, I, I really am getting bored of it. And I miss the nuance of having, you know, like I've overused this story that that Brickman shared with me on, on the podcast where he talked about doing Neil Young at Coachella and everybody had, you know, thousands of moving lights at Coachella.

48:51 And he comes in with his, his lighting plot and it's 16 follow spots. That that was it. That was the lighting rig, right? It was 16 follow spots. And he said so many people came to him and said, Oh my God, like that was a moment. You know, that was a moment. And, and I love that. Like, I, I love that it becomes all about the artist at that point. It becomes all about Neil Young. It's not about this incredibly wild like show that that you've put on. But again, thank God for massive light shows because they keep us all working and spending and making money hopefully. But yeah, I, I think some of that's gone forever and some of it's just gone until somebody's brave enough to to go back out and do that kind of stuff.

49:46 I was thinking of one other. I thought of another show for a minute because it's not really entirely in line with this, but it's when simplicity curious a moment. I, I did a show with David Crosby at the Hawaii Theatre here and I, I was just the LDI was mostly using house lights, trying to figure out where where to go with it and the like. I'd taken the, the strip lights that were over the stage and I'd aimed them at out into the crowd. So anyways, it was kind of an interesting result because. You just had people. Watching.

50:28 Yeah, I did. Well, that's all good, no worries. Let me go back David Crosby. I'm doing the show and and I'm using house lights and the like and we have strip lights that are I, I aimed into the audience. Of course I put specials in and I'm running the house rig and I'm waiting for the audio guys to show up because they have like 1-2 that carries the audio sound cable and that's where the light cable goes to and they have to go at both the same time. So I waited for him to to show up so we could run the stuff together and we could get on with our day. And he did show up late by about an hour. And the well when my back was turned out, you know, I told, I told him I had waited for him so we could run it together.

51:13 When I turned my back and come back again, he ran his and didn't take my cable at all. Now, you know, time is nice. I'm going, what the hell? I'll just run at side stage. You know, that's what this is going to be. And Dave, David Crosby comes up to me and he and he goes, you're going to run lights here. And I said, yeah, well, and I started to go into the story about the sound, how the sound, and he patched me on the back and he goes, I think that's great. One of the band. That's fine. And then? I thought you were going to say no, no, that that's the audio cable. No, but so then this is an audio board. No, but then, then the lights that I aimed out into the crowd, you know, some of the people with the facility that came up to me and they went you're, you're blinding people. You got to turn those lights off. You know, I I know it kind of looks cool and everything, Bob, but we really can't have that.

52:12 And just as he starts to turn, having told me my discipline, Crosby comes back over to the side stage and leans into me. And he goes the lights in the audience. Nobody's ever done that for me before, you know, I can't quite hear as well as I used to, and I don't quite see as well as I used to. So I can't hear the audience or know how they're reacting. But because you lit them up. I can. Relax and we're on fire tonight. That's awesome and. There's just like, so some things happen that aren't planned. Yeah, that's how it relates. Because sometimes just thinking the simple answer is gonna be your most effective.

52:52 I don't know how that went for the next guy who did lights for him but demanded that he sit side stage like I did. I don't know. Maybe, yeah. For him, it was a highlight of a show. You know what's funny though? It reminds me like, you know, the audience or someone coming and saying those lights are hitting people in the audience and they don't like it or whatever. It reminds me of something that Steve Jobs said when he launched the original iPhone, the first iPhone. And he said we've heard nothing but complaints and just people saying you're completely nuts not putting a tactile keyboard on it because, you know, the BlackBerry owns the market. Like, that is the hottest device out there. You don't have a shot.

53:38 You don't have a chance to compete with the BlackBerry if you don't put a tactile thing on there. You know, what are you thinking? People want a keyboard. And he said, you know, sometimes you need to teach people what they want. Sometimes they don't know what they want. And you have to teach them what they want. You have to show them what they want. And he's right. He's right. I mean you. Have to do that to be a leader. Yeah. Well, and also explaining to the audience or or the person who complained that the artist is much happier when he can share the performance with you. And in order to do that, he needs to be able to see you. And when he can see you, you're going to get the performance of a lifetime out of this artist.

54:24 If he can't see you, he's basically singing to himself, you know? And so again, you got to tell them, you got to you got to educate them and and not just go, you're an idiot. You don't know what you're talking about. You show them the way. Show them the way. Exactly the thing that AI is not going to do. AI is going to show you the answer. Here's the correct answer. I'm not going to show you how I came to this answer, what route I took to get to this answer. I mean, you can certainly ask that question, but the short version is going to be what is the answer? And and as lazy as humans are, we're just going to go straight to the end game. You know what is the answer? I want all the.

55:04 Answers. That's that's true. There are people like Bob Bonniel that are certainly kind of cutting edge with all this and certainly for inspiration and doing very, very well with it. Yeah, I gotta get, I gotta get Bob back on to talk about it 'cause I know he's as addicted to the topic as I am. Last time he was on the podcast, we talked a bunch about it and I talk about it pretty much every episode now. I talk about some of the different AI things that are happening out there and because, you know, in our industry and for good reason and you know, for good reason, people are a little freaked out by it. People assume that the next thing that's going to happen is going to put everybody out of work. You know, you're going to have self programming consoles and and moving lights that maybe don't even need consoles. They just kind of do stuff right. And certainly there's an ability to get to some of those places, but I don't know that there's a desire or a market to get to those places right now.

56:05 Like nobody wants self programming consoles right now. Certainly if you could make it a little bit easier so you don't have to do the tedious things that you have to do every time you set up a console or whatever, like get rid of some of the boring things. But any, you know, anything that requires creativity talk. To your board. It'd be nice to be able to, you know, in the third party, just be able to step out almost in front of the console and wear a headset and go, yeah, you know, if maybe if we could set the, you know, the red lights alternating in color between red and the blue-green coming in from the stage, Right. And I'd like to have it start. And you could actually do programming by discussion, by being the artist.

56:46 Looking at canvas I can see great value. Well, you could do that today. And so again, it, it, it's gonna, it's gonna come down to a console company, a control company being brave enough to, to come out with that type of a feature set and an audience that wants it. You know, really is, is I think the combination that needs to happen because if the audience is like, if you ever put AI in a lighting console, I will never use your products again. And so then the company has no incentive. You know, companies create new products because there's an incentive to create those products.

57:26 There's a market that wants them and we'll pay for them. But if the market wants the opposite, you're probably wise to follow the market, I guess in this case, right? So maybe they have to call it moving light assistant rather than Yeah AI. Well, and it, it should be lighting design support, lighting director support. It's not a lighting director replacement. It's it's a tool that will help the lighting director be better, you know, do his job better, do his job more efficiently. And I'm anxious to see it. Yeah, yeah, me too. Well, and I think what you just explained is a very, very good application, you know, where you can walk around on the stage with a or in in the audience with a headset on and just be talking with, not to talking with the console, where the console's actually answering you back and saying, oh, do you mean like that Look we did in the last show where we had the, you know, 42 Mac auras or whatever, you know, and you go, yeah, just like that. Except our response would be, yeah, but let's keep your solo out of it that you did.

58:34 Yeah, right, right, yeah, and and by the way, you're freaking me out. Quit talking about this there. So, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's cool, you know, I, I for me, I'm happy to be alive right now to be seeing all of this. Like if you think it's. Pretty amazing. As much as I'd rather be 25 years old again, you know, that would be really fun. But, you know, I think it's really cool that you and I basically saw, at least for me, more of the end of the transition from black and white to color television. But I saw color television come out. I saw, you know, remotes for the television where you didn't have to go up and turn the knob anymore, you know? I'm I'm pretty sure I was the knob for my brother. I was the knob.

59:22 Yeah, I certainly was the knob for everyone, not just my brother, but, you know, cordless telephones. Remember when we didn't have cordless telephones and we had one phone in the kitchen with like a 40 foot coily cord on it that was always wound up all over everything entangled in a ball about this big and and then you get to things. Yeah, well, way before that. I mean, the personal computer, like remember when there no house had a computer in it? There was no such thing. And then all of a sudden there's these Commodore 60 fours and Atari computers and all this stuff and eventually the the Apple, Apple two and Lisa and Macintosh. And so I mean, we didn't have personal computers back then, let alone cell phones that were 20 times more powerful than the original Mac two and all that stuff. So and then cell phones like you said, the brick and the bag phone and so.

1:00:22 You know, music, like if you think of music going from what was the original speed? Was it 78? Yeah, 78, yeah. And then to a, an album, A33 album and, and and then, and then a cassette or A8 track tape, a cassette tape. And those advancements were huge at the time. You know, going from an 8 track to a cassette was like, whoa. And I can record my own. These are amazing and and then all of a sudden you got CDs and now all of that stuff is archaic with the music we have today, you know, so you. Find it interesting that I guess people don't make mirror as much money on music anymore and they make a lot more on touring and that is a big flip.

1:01:12 In the 70s and 80s, it was your record that they gave you money. Yeah, and the. Touring was in support and that that's certainly feeding the the large lighting rigs that are requested now. And I at least here for the longest time they got away with the smallest amount they could they could. And the onset of MTV was suddenly our shows don't look like that. Why don't we see that show? Yeah. Yeah, like I, I. Remember. Yeah, I remember reading an article one time about Rush and, you know, go figure, a Canadian bass player, singer, you know, who was a Rush fan? Guilty.

1:01:53 But I remember reading an article, and this was before I knew Howard. And it, it was just talking about how, you know, it was really hard to tour in a band because you didn't make any money. You were out there just supporting your record sales and it, it got into some of the math and it, it would say like, you know, I don't remember the exact numbers, but let's say the show, each stop is bringing in $200,000 and that breaks down to blah, blah, blah. And at the end of the day, each band member gets $1000 per show. That's what they get paid. They get paid $1000 per night. The three guys in in rush and I was like, what? So but Fast forward, like you said, like the whole thing has flipped.

1:02:40 Now they don't sell any music anymore, but Oh my God, are they selling concert tickets? You know it, it's incredible. It's incredible. And you know, I, I was talking to a lady this morning who she's actually the crossing guard by my house where I go for my walk every morning. And she's a big Florida Panthers hockey fan. And I know she's got season tickets. So we started talking about I'm going to the game on Sunday and she's going with her husband. And we started talking about the cost of tickets for hockey. And I said, well, have you seen concert tickets recently? And she said, yeah, I work for Live Nation at the venue right up the road. And it's unbelievable what people are paying to go see, to go see a country band. They'll go, they'll pay, you know, 250, three, $100 for tickets to go see.

1:03:26 And I don't want to pick on anybody but name the band, really. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's amazing that there's that much of an appetite right now for. And half these bands are playing in stadiums, too. Like more than half. Like anybody who's big. Should should people in the lighting industry be more worried about the onset of AI or should they be worried about Apple Vision and 1:00 Concert playing to the entire country and charging pay for view and possibly taking out some of the local markets? You know, it's an interesting thought, but I think one thing COVID taught us is that people actually want to be together and. That is the correct answer.

1:04:13 Yeah, there's a huge difference between watching something on that Apple Vision Pro thing, which is pretty incredible. But I was never a fan of the virtual stuff. And, you know, if you wanna be with a crowd at a concert, seeing a band live, you gotta be in a crowd at a concert seeing a band live. You know, you can't replicate it. It's just not. I think it's important that for the artist that not every show is a replication of the last one either, You know, everybody remembers the special moment when somebody came into the crowd or invited somebody up. And I guess it could be canned. But at the same time. Well, I remember all the other weird stuff, you know, like getting, you know, stoned the first time and, and falling down the stairs at a concert or, or going to Judas Priest with my buddy Julius, who, who did acid at Judas Priest. We were probably 16 years old and he did acid at Judas Priest and fell asleep.

1:05:15 He did acid at a Judas Priest concert and fell asleep and slept through like 2/3 of the show while I just had a great time. I was partying. Yeah, so. You know, he woke up, he told you that his visions and his dreams were amazing, but. Yeah, yeah. He didn't know where he was when he woke up. But, you know, I mean those things, like I think half of what we experience in life isn't necessarily, you know, that main focus that that band that's on stage or whatever. But it's what happened. Like you said, it's the people in the audience. It's it's those connections and the different things that are happening now. The older I get, the more I sort of swing towards the Apple Vision Pro, you know, like, can I sit on my couch and watch all of this?

1:06:01 That would be fantastic, you know? Well, somebody I didn't interview the other day and I we were talking about some of the things that that really turned me on in the business. And I said, you know the one thing about music, when you watch television, when you go to watch a movie, you know you're going to experience somebody else's moment and they're going to tell you a story. That's kind of a given. But music maybe a second only to the sense of smell it is it will bring back memories to you of who you were with the moment that it that it was the excitement, maybe some sense something bad as well as good.

1:06:43 But nothing triggers memory like listening to a song again and. That's such a great point. And everyone's memory is different. Everyone. How that song makes everyone feel is different, you know, and. I heard somebody say that your music is within seven years when you graduated high school. It could be 7 after, it could be in the middle of that, or whatever. But that. Used to be your go to music. So what if what if you didn't graduate high school, or you just hung up on Led Zeppelin forever or something? That means that's I'm pining to be more and more adventurous in my music, so I'm not going to.

1:07:24 College. That's funny. Yeah, I don't know. But the, but you know, and that, that brought up a different conversation, which was as a lighting director, it's important for me, even if I don't know the music. And if I, it's not my Forte, I have to listen to it to enough and enough times to know the impact and the what's the hook? What is the message? What's going to bring the audience into this and closer to the artist? And and if if I fail to do that then I fail. Do different lighting designers or directors or whatever get their inspiration from different sources? Like for example, might one person sit down with Elton John and say, what is it that you want? And would another person you know, obviously sit with the artist and say, OK, what is it you want, but then get their inspiration from the music, not from the artist's words? I've, I've seen so many different approaches and, you know, since the onset of computers, I've, I've had people go to Google images and you know, what do you have, what's in your head for this song?

1:08:41 Like light casting through a window? And I want to see that. And you know, maybe that's where AI comes in, but I'd rather, I'd rather see the light through the windows of the train station of New York and then go off and how we're going to explain that rather than AI telling me then you should do this. Yeah. So that that that maybe that wraps that all the way around. You know, it's, it's funny you say that cuz while you were saying it, I'm, I'm sitting here scrambling looking for an image that I wanna share with you because I, I had an idea in my head for an image that I wanted for geezers of gear for something. We're doing a, a newsletter.

1:09:26 And where the heck did that image go? We're doing a newsletter and there's a section of the newsletter called spotlight on guests. And it's basically, hey, here's Bob Harmon, great guy, blah, blah, blah. Here's some really cool facts about Bob Harmon. And so it's just basically it's a spotlight on prior guests. So I wanted an image and I went, of course, to my friend at, at ChatGPT and said, you know, here's what I want. I want blah, blah, blah. I want, you know, people doing lighting, doing sound. I want X number of lights. I want this kind of stuff. So here is the image that it created. And it, it was all good until you realized that this guy has two arms, or three arms, I should say.

1:10:16 Two on one side. Yeah, he he's got three arms, Ultra. Efficient, doesn't he? Yeah, I'm like, you know, what's going on here? And one of them has a microphone in it, and the other one has a wrench or something. But, you know, and I didn't even notice that at first. I was like, yeah, this is basically sort of what I wanted it to look like. But this is this is what AI does all the time. And sometimes it's easy to see and sometimes it's not like, you know, you might have to generate this image 20 times to get it to spell spotlight correctly. And you can keep saying ChatGPT, you screwed up the spelling. Please check your spelling and get it right. And then it'll spell spotlight correctly, but it'll change something else.

1:10:58 And you're like, Oh my God, like, please go back to this image, fix this, do this. And so it's not like it's a no brainer kind of version of easy. It's it can be a little bit of work to get it right, but. Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if going back to the topic I started with, can you ask ChatGPT or AI or whatever you're going to be consulting to? OK, I want the image, but I want you to think in the abstract. Yes you can. So what it won't do is it won't like. It won't doctor up images of specific people. So like it, it doesn't want to, you know, if I say give me a picture of Bob Harmon with, you know, a green mustache or something like it, it doesn't do a lot of that kind of stuff because it it doesn't want to venture over top of copyright or, you know, personas and all of these different things. But it will create a guy with a green mustache that looks very similar to you if I give it a really good description. But yes, it it if you know, and we could do a screen share later and I'll show you how some of this stuff works. But it will, it will do whatever amount of information you put into it, it will do that.

1:12:26 So it'll say, you know, in the style of Da Vinci, you know, I want you to create an abstract image that blah, you know, whatever. And you can put as much detail in there and you can say, I want it. I want it to appear as though I'm standing on the left side of it. And I want it to keystone based on me standing 12 feet to the left side of it. Or like, you can just get into so much detail and it does a really good job. But as soon as you put words on the screen, it'll spell them wrong. Like that's the thing. That's the weird irony of it all. You know, like a word so similar or so simple, like spotlight. I swear to God, I probably had to prompt it 25 times to get it right to get it to, because I don't want to have to go into Photoshop and start changing things and fixing things. I just want it to spit out what I want, right? So, and except it's got three arms on it. So now we're going to use that image, by the way, and people are going to probably hear me now, but people wouldn't have noticed.

1:13:27 I bet for the most part that that guy had three arms. Yeah, you kind of run into the end of my time here. But, you know, since we're talking about virtual assistants, yeah, I want to tell you that I think your assistant, Sarah, is doing great things for you. Oh, thank you very much. She's an amazing person. She's a good human. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. She works very hard, and she's been a game changer for the podcast. We've grown since the beginning of this year when she started three times, and it just keeps growing. So now this is becoming like a real job for me, which is cool. I like it. It's fun, and I get to sit around and talk to amazing people like you all day. But yeah, so I appreciate you saying that Sarah's. Sarah's a great, great person.

1:14:16 And if it weren't so late in the day, she would have been with us on here. But she lives in Greece or Crete. So yeah, it's a bit late in the day for her, but thanks for saying that. Well, I appreciate you as always. And a couple of things that we forgot to talk about. You won the Hometown Heroes award for regional lighting Company. You did very cool. I believe it's your 50th year anniversary this year. It is. This is quite a year you're having, and what else was there here that Sarah? Oh, so this came from Sarah. Sarah said it's obvious that Bob is an extremely generous man because pretty much all of his Facebook posts are donations to friends and family charities.

1:15:03 And that was one of the things that she discovered when she was researching you. So it's all true. You know, you're just one of those super kind, wonderful people in our industry. And there's a lot of you. And I appreciate knowing you and I appreciate you coming on. Absolutely calling John. Thank you, Aloha. And to you?