#243 - Jim Woodward

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Welcome to Gears of Gear Episode
#243.

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The
well, of course, I've been

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talking all about this new
system that we're using with

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Riverside and so a couple of
things have happened.

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One is that we've gone to sort
of a hybrid, so you're seeing

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the intro and promos from our
old system.

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So now we're paying for two
systems basically is what it

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comes down to.
We love the framing and the way

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that this all works with our old
system and the ability to show

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off the sponsor logos and stuff
like that.

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And so it just works.
We like this format, but we

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don't like the actual system and
their tech structure behind it.

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So unfortunately right now we're
paying for two full systems And

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so Riverside, our new system is
great.

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However, there are some little
glitchy, weird things that we're

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learning with it, and one
happened with Steve Warren last

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week.
And So what would normally take

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about 15 minutes to edit an
episode, We don't spend a lot of

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time on editing unless it's
something that, you know, the

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guest is like, hey, I don't want
that part in there about my

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grandma, Could you please take
it out?

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And I don't mean grandma
lighting console.

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I mean your grandmother or, you
know, just something that was

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said and needed to be changed or
something wrong or that somebody

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wanted me to go back and edit
and take out or whatever.

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But typically, we don't do a lot
of editing.

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And so Long story short, what
should have taken me 15 or 20

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minutes to edit the Steve Warren
episode took probably about 15

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hours.
And literally, I mean, I was

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working on it all weekend last
weekend just to get the podcast

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done, but it's there.
Hopefully you've heard it.

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The Steve Warren episode, which
I believe is 242, is excellent.

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And if you haven't heard it,
please go listen to it because

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it's good.
What else?

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F1.
Last weekend I was very grateful

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to get an invite from Roby, from
my friend Craig Burrows at Roby.

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I guess he had a lighting
designer group that he took to

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the races and somebody had to
jump out at the last minute.

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And I happened to be local and I
got the call.

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So of course I said yes.
And they had great seats.

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Just a really cool group of
people, really nice.

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Never watched a race in air
conditioning before other than

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at home.
And so that was kind of cool.

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And you know, honestly, Craig is
very knowledgeable about racing

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and and so were some of the
lighting designers that were

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there as well.
And so it was really cool.

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It was a lot of fun to do.
And then again, I was super

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grateful that on Sunday, the
race day, 'cause this was, I

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went for the qualifying day and
and the Sprint race.

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And I won't talk about why we
were late for the Sprint race,

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Peter Moore.
And so anyways, on Sunday that

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ticket was available again and
and Craig said would Jeremy want

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to go?
And those of you who have heard

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this podcast before know that my
son's a racing driver and so he

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was super excited and happy to
be able to be there for the race

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on Sunday.
And so, yeah, thank you to Roby.

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Thank you to Craig Burrows, my
good friend, for the invite and

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for the hospitality and for
introducing me to some lighting

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designers who I didn't even
know, some really great people.

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And So what else do I have?
I've got Sarah told me to remind

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people that we're doing a bit of
a guest outreach now, too.

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So if you or someone you know
should be a guest on Geezers of

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Gear, please shoot an e-mail to
producer@geezersofgear.com.

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That goes to Sarah and she'll do
a little research on the guest

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or on you and and you know again
our our criteria really is are

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you interesting and will it be
an interesting conversation

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because we're super sensitive to
our listeners and you know the

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people, the viewers, the people
who who are our audience.

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Basically we're very sensitive
to the fact that we're putting

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out a a product that they will
like and that is is good

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quality.
And so yeah, she'll just want to

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make sure that it's going to be
an interesting podcast and then

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we'll get you signed up.
And in the loop of of

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scheduling, we're generally
scheduling about a month out

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right now.
Sometimes we get last minute

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openings where because we're
recording to a week, sometimes

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one of those will have to
reschedule.

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That just happened this week
actually.

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So we're only doing one this
week and so yeah, we'd love to

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to get more new interesting
guests on people that you know,

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maybe I don't know, with my 30
plus years in the industry and

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Sarah doesn't know.
So if you or if you know someone

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would like to sign up as a
guest, please do again.

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Just shoot an e-mail to
producer@geysersofgear.com and

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also if you could, and I'm
asking another favor here,

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please subscribe to whatever
podcast platform you listen to

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us on.
So if that's Apple, just click

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the little subscribe button.
If it's YouTube, subscribe

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Spotify, any of the ones that
you are listening to our podcast

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on.
I would greatly appreciate if

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you subscribe that.
That does a lot of really good

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things for us that I won't go
into explaining, but it just

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helps give us access to a wider
audience, a bigger audience.

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And the larger our audience, the
better our sponsors, or the more

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that our sponsors are willing to
support the podcast.

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And then the more we can really
do.

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And we have a lot of really fun
plans that I'm going to start

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letting you in on at some point
here, not today, but someday.

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And then of course my favorite
weekly topic that I that I like

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to jump into and that I've
gotten a lot of feedback on.

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Some good, some not so good.
I got ripped up on.

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I think it was YouTube or I
don't remember which platform it

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was but somebody attacking me
for myself driving car comments

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and it's a technology I firmly
believe in.

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I don't think it's gonna be very
long before Uber has no drivers,

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before, you know, cars are
driving us around with nobody in

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them other than us.
And to be honest, I look forward

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to it.
I love driving, but I also love

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working and talking on my phone
and not having to pay attention

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to where I'm going.
And I also don't love accidents.

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And so if driverless cars will
help us get over the the problem

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with with human intervention or
human mistakes, then I think

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it's a really good thing.
And and you don't have to worry

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every time your kid goes on a
long journey or your kid goes

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out to see a concert at night or
something, that you might not

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see them come back.
And without getting super

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dramatic there, you know, I just
think it's obvious to me at this

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point that driverless cars are
the future.

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And I still think there will be
a place for, you know, those of

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us who are, are wanting to, you
know, be sentimental or or be

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attached to our past or
whatever, to go to a place and

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drive a regular car, not just a
racetrack, but just areas where

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you can drive regular cars.
I just don't think it's gonna be

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in the inner cities for much
longer.

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So I every week I look for some
cool things to talk about on AI

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and and so one of the ones, and
I was actually just talking with

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Michael Steagner from from
Highlight Productions is a big

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photographer.
And I was talking to him

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recently or this morning I think
on social media about Adobe

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Firefly.
And so there's a lot of uproar

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with Adobe right now and with
photographers because Adobe has

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this campaign that says skip the
photo shoot.

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And I think it was probably not
very well thought through if you

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ask me.
Because it's like in our

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industry saying skip the
programmer or skip the

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programming session, skip the
production rehearsals or

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whatever it is, right?
Like just skip a very big part

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of a live event.
And so obviously for a

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photographer, the photo shoot is
kind of the thing, right?

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And So what they're basically
offering is these AI generated

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backgrounds and saying you don't
need to go out and shoot those

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backgrounds, we can just provide
them for you using just an AI

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background generator.
Sounds great, but in reality

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it's taking food off their
plate.

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And I don't know that it's the
direction I would have gone

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right out of the gate, but
Adobe's a very big company and

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they're probably smarter than
me, So what do I know?

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But it has creators very pissed
off right now and I've looked at

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a lot of comments on some of
their posts of this campaign.

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Not good.
I was messing around at 6:00

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this morning for some reason
with a couple of music creation

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apps or they're very new.
They're like in beta but one was

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called SUNO and one was called
Audio and these allow you to

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basically go in and like when
you're prompting ChatGPT saying,

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you know behave like you're a
lawyer and and write something

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to me so I can understand it.
And I'm a 7th grader, which is

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probably giving myself too much
credit.

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And but with them you can go in
and just say create a song about

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quitting smoking and it'll
create a song about quitting

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smoking.
You can tell it what genre you

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want it to be.
You can put in as much detail or

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as little detail as you want.
The result is unbelievable.

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And if you go through, if you
look at these two websites, Suno

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and Udio, they're they're a
little bit different.

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One's a little more creative and
one's a little more accurate, I

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would say.
And but both of them had samples

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on their songs that they were
promoting that from some people

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who went on and created them.
I guess that I couldn't tell

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they were AI generated.
I mean killer vocals.

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There was a rendition of House
of the Rising Sun on one of

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them.
Blew me away.

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Like, I would buy the song if it
was on iTunes, You know what I

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mean?
So crazy.

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And remember how early we are.
Like, remember a year ago we

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weren't even talking about
ChatGPT.

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And right now we're already at
in a place where you can put in

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a fairly, you know, generic
topic and it'll give you a song

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around it or you can get really
specific, like there was one

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about a guy, oh, I can't
remember what his name was.

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Like let's say his name was Bob
and his friends wanted to

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basically you know mess with him
and so they went on and and

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created a song about Bob
shitting his pants at work.

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And I mean it's hilarious and
it's it's sort of like a like a

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big band kind of song almost you
know and or like jazz but from

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the 60s you know really great
song but it's all about Bob

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shitting his pants at work and
and embarrassing himself with

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his Co workers and stuff and and
that as a woman I support Bob

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and he's a great guy but he
shits his pants at work and

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that's not cool and so I don't
know if if you can find it I I

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should have shared it but I
don't really even remember which

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one I got it from but it was one
of those Suno Arudio and another

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one that's interesting is search
engines.

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I'm paying a lot of attention to
this.

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I spend a bunch of money with
Google and and these other ones

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through my business and AI
driven search engines are coming

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very quickly.
So Open AI has one coming which

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is ChatGPT basically very fast
that they think will go head to

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head with Google and I've been
playing with one called

225
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,400
Perplexity and it's it's cool.
I I wouldn't say that it

226
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,160
replaces Google in that if you
just want to know, you know,

227
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,520
something really simple like
connect me to this website or

228
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,360
whatever, it it gives you too
much information back.

229
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,400
It doesn't give you back like
just the web domain or just the

230
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,680
phone number for American
Airlines, if that's what you're

231
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,200
looking for or whatever it is,
right?

232
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,080
But if you want some more
information or you want nuance

233
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,800
or you want facts or you want
something surrounding the topic

234
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,800
that you've just searched for,
it's so good.

235
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,320
It's incredible.
Really, really great.

236
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,920
And so yeah, check out
Perplexity.

237
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,240
And again, Open AI has one
coming as well.

238
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,400
I've been messing with this
brainstorming AI, which my

239
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,520
girlfriend said, Oh yeah, that's
just to replace your girlfriend.

240
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,680
That's all that's going to do.
And so basically what it is, is

241
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,720
it's someone to talk to about
anything, whether it's what

242
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,120
should I have for dinner tonight
or I've got this really complex

243
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,720
problem in my business or it's,
you know, my leg hurts when I

244
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,840
run, but only when I'm turning
left, not when I'm turning right

245
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,400
or whatever it is or or it could
just be, you know, I'm really

246
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,720
struggling with these things in
my life or with this thing at

247
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,000
work or whatever.
So it's part time girlfriend,

248
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,240
part time therapist, part time,
business advisor, part time,

249
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,880
whatever.
It's it's a lot of things.

250
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,800
And so it does.
It's it and it's learning and

251
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,120
remembering.
So the more you talk to it,

252
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,400
basically the more that it knows
you and knows your

253
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,400
idiosyncrasies or your habits or
your ideas or your idealisms or

254
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,440
your beliefs or whatever.
And you know, it'll call you

255
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,160
out.
It'll say, you know, last

256
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:16,360
Thursday you said you know, And
I'm not saying it's amazing.

257
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,040
I'm saying it's pretty cool
though.

258
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,040
It's pretty cool.
I've used it a few times.

259
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,600
I did.
You have to do this initial

260
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,880
thing where it's asking you a
lot of your What do you like?

261
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,800
What do you not like?
How old are you?

262
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,600
When's your birthday?
What kind of food do you like?

263
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,080
Blah, blah, blah.
And there is a huge level of

264
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,400
security built into it.
So they're not selling your data

265
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,240
to anyone.
And that's obviously important

266
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,320
because it's going to know as
much about you as your

267
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,160
girlfriend does, or your wife or
your husband.

268
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:50,080
So the one that I'm using is
called Kin KIN and again, it's

269
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,120
in beta.
I don't think you can just go

270
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,160
download it.
I think you have to sign up for

271
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,560
some beta program or something.
But I've got it and it's less

272
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,960
scary than you think you know it
it it is very helpful for a lot

273
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,480
of things.
It's a little more personal is

274
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,240
that's how I would say it
probably because I've used chat

275
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,000
GPTA whole bunch.
This is more personal and this

276
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,640
is more based on the learnings
that you've put into it.

277
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,280
So it gets to know you like a
very close friend or a very

278
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,440
close advisor, a very close
mentor would and really cool.

279
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,640
And sort of the last one that I
would talk about.

280
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,880
Well, two more ChatGPT Open AI
the the parent company of

281
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,320
ChatGPT has created an AI
generated image detector which

282
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,240
is interesting.
You know, it's it's sort of like

283
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,920
a drug dealer building a police
force within itself, you know,

284
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,800
So and it works really well.
I I looked at some tests on it

285
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,880
and stuff and and it picks up
and it'll tell you which program

286
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,160
created it too for the most
part.

287
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,680
So that's interesting.
I think that's going to be

288
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,280
become a big deal where Google
is going to steer people away

289
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,040
from AI generated images or AI
generated content.

290
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,600
I know they already do.
If you're writing blogs using AI

291
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,360
generators for example, and
you're using those blogs to try

292
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,320
and improve your SEO, your
search engine optimization, you

293
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,960
are going to fail.
It's it's going to penalize you

294
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,920
for using AI generated content.
So interesting.

295
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,720
And then lastly finally is a an
app I found called Gamma, which

296
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,920
it's pretty incredible.
I mean you can basically say I

297
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,840
want to create a slide
presentation about geezers of

298
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,840
gear that I'm gonna present to
potential sponsors and you give

299
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,800
it very little information,
boom, it spits out this

300
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,280
unbelievable looking slide
presentation, which by the way

301
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,600
could also be a website, could
also be a document.

302
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,080
And so we are at that stage now
where you can create relatively

303
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:06,240
simple websites within about two
minutes and they look beautiful

304
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:11,080
and the AI system will publish
that website for you.

305
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,000
You don't even have to go
publish the website, you just

306
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,040
give it the custom domain and
you probably have to put in some

307
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,200
hosting details and stuff and it
publishes the site for you.

308
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:25,880
So if you or your children are
part time web developers doing

309
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,760
really simple, like those
WordPress sites that you charge

310
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,360
1000 or $2000 for and it takes
you an hour or two hours to

311
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,520
build, 'cause they're all
templated and you're just

312
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,120
putting in a little bit of
information, I think those are

313
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,080
going by the wayside very
quickly.

314
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:44,760
This to me is better than any of
the 1000 or $2000 WordPress

315
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,520
WordPress sites that I saw.
So there you have it.

316
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,720
That is my AI up AI update for
the week.

317
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:59,880
And do me a favor, send me
messages, content, comments on

318
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,560
the on the podcast or on
YouTube.

319
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,600
Let me know if you think this
this AI discussion is valuable

320
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,160
or if you just skip by it every
week.

321
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,440
And I know the few of you I can
think of right away that would

322
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,640
be skipping right by it, but I'm
sure some people do listen to

323
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,520
it.
You know it's it's it's

324
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,880
important that you know it's
going to impact all of our

325
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,960
futures.
And so yeah, I try to share what

326
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,200
I can.
Anyways, today's guest, Jim

327
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:31,480
Woodward, is an award-winning
designer who's expertise IS3D

328
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,440
visualization, rendering, and
modeling for a wide variety of

329
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,880
industries including concert and
theatrical films, events.

330
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,760
I blew that one.
Events, film, television,

331
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,720
corporate events, trade shows,
museums, architectural firms,

332
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,840
and retail.
Jim has been incorporating CAD

333
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,880
and 3D visualization into the
entertainment workflow since

334
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,840
1986.
He's produced corporate and

335
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,280
concert events for widely
recognized companies and

336
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,520
entertainment artists for over
40 years now.

337
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,800
Jim is the Senior Entertainment
Product Specialist at

338
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,880
Vectorworks, focused on
providing training and support

339
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,440
for lighting design, production
design, pre vis rendering and

340
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,600
more.
Welcome Jim.

341
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,640
Jim, how are you?
I'm doing great.

342
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,120
Nice to be here.
Yeah, it's great to have you.

343
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:31,840
I'm, I'm a little bit headphone
envious.

344
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,280
You know, I got some headphone
envy, you got big bright red

345
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,080
beats on, and I got these goofy
looking AKG headphones on, but

346
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,800
you look snappy.
They match your red mic cord

347
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,880
there, so.
See, That's what.

348
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,320
I'm saying where In Sync.
You almost should send me those

349
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,520
just because of that, You know,
just because of the red, the red

350
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,240
mic cord.
You know what, It's funny.

351
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,280
I saw a podcast and I can't even
remember what it was now.

352
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,720
But I went, man, that red mic
cord looks good.

353
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,960
And I had to go on Amazon
instantly and order one.

354
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,520
So I ordered a red mic cord and
now I need red headphones up

355
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,200
because you know, it's just not
good enough with these black

356
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,640
ones anymore.
See these.

357
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,720
Things have a little too much
black in our in our images.

358
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,360
It's a show thing, huh?
It's, it's your show, blacks.

359
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:27,240
I've, you know, I've never been
a roadie, call it, but I've just

360
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,320
always loved black clothes from
when I was, you know, a little

361
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,520
kid.
I loved black clothes, so I.

362
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,680
Don't know, all the way back to
what I started my mom, I was

363
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,520
asking why do you always wear
black?

364
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,240
Right to yesterday when we were
on vacation, my wife said why do

365
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,680
you always wear black?
And I said it's comfortable for

366
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,400
me.
Yeah, yeah, You know what?

367
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,240
I I mean, me too.
It's just when I go to the

368
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,640
closet, like, first of all, 90%
of my closet is black anyways.

369
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,360
But you know, I'm just not
typically gonna grab a yellow

370
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,440
shirt or a red shirt or
something, you know?

371
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,880
It's like every year on Saint
Patrick's Day, I'm looking for a

372
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,360
green shirt.
Nope.

373
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,800
Still don't have one, you know?
So yeah, I mean, it's just a

374
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,760
thing.
Black cars too for me, I I

375
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,120
prefer black cars over any other
color and happen to have one

376
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,080
right now.
That's my exception.

377
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,120
I don't.
I don't like to be in a very

378
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:21,880
warm car when I get in so.
You know, is that real though?

379
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,880
Like I know it's supposed to be
but.

380
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,200
I'm not sure, but it's always
been my choice.

381
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Yeah, I live in, I live in South
Florida and and I have a black

382
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,440
car and I've had a couple white
ones, I've had a couple red

383
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,640
ones, etcetera.
But like for me, I don't know

384
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,520
that I've ever felt hotter in
one color than another.

385
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,800
And so I don't know, I'm sure.
It's got to be false.

386
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,440
Every time I go to Las Vegas or
Florida, everybody has black

387
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,600
cars, so it's.
True.

388
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,400
It's true.
Fashionable.

389
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,880
You know, the one thing is they
do get dirty quicker and like,

390
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,880
I'll take mine to the car wash
and you know, literally an hour

391
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,840
later I'm like, what?
You know, Did I get splashed or

392
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:00,760
something?
What's going on?

393
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,240
Why is it dirty already And
white?

394
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,520
You can you can keep it for two
weeks after a car wash and it

395
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,640
still looks good.
So I don't know why I pick black

396
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,160
cars all the time, silly.
So tell me, I know you've been

397
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,920
in the business a while and
it's, I think it's coming on 50

398
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,960
years, right?
And you don't.

399
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,360
You look like you're in, You
look like you're in your 50s to

400
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,040
me, so.
That's thank you.

401
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,280
It's a bit surprising.
So how did you get started?

402
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,680
You know that was, that was I
guess the mid 70s, right?

403
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,360
Yes, it was.
I believe 1974.

404
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,280
My sister took me to an Elton
John concert, and at the old

405
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,520
Boston Garden, you had to walk
out into the balcony.

406
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,360
You had to go up a little flight
of stairs, and you came out in

407
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,000
the middle of the balcony and
then you either went up or down

408
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,920
to go to your seat.
And as I walked up that first

409
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,440
flight of steps, I didn't see
anything of the show.

410
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,520
I saw what was above, I saw the
Truss, I saw the audio hanging

411
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,640
and I looked up there and before
I even saw the show I said that

412
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,400
is the coolest thing I ever saw.
And a year later I was

413
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,920
schlepping Steel Park hands
anywhere I could.

414
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,080
I started out in punk rock at a
place in Boston called the

415
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,080
Ratskeller, short of the Rat,
and it was Boston's answer to

416
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,640
CBG BS.
A lot of the acts coming over

417
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,760
over from the US for showcase
gigs at CBG BS didn't want to do

418
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,120
that on their first night so
they usually stopped in Boston

419
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:40,040
to do their first US show.
Believe some of those acts would

420
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,160
have been the police.
The cars were a local Boston

421
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,360
band and.
Cars are kind of Boston.

422
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,600
I didn't hear that.
Yeah, that's cool.

423
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,800
All kinds of, all kinds of
stories to go back to the punk

424
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,960
rock days.
But basically I started going in

425
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,960
there any time I could.
I was sneaking in there, I think

426
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,080
15, and I think I can say it
now, while the owners are long

427
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,160
gone, they can't be sued.
But I was sneaking in at 15 and

428
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,200
by the time the doors opened,
the people around there, the

429
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,240
bartenders and the and the
bouncers saw me around.

430
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,680
They assumed I was 18 so they
didn't kick me out and I just

431
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,880
started doing anything I could
to help bands and started

432
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,240
running the lights there.
I think the owner asked me for

433
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,800
$60.00 a night if I would leave
my 6 steel power cans in there

434
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,280
and come in every night and run
them.

435
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,160
And I do believe he offered me
free beer as part of the deal.

436
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,640
And I said I think I found a new
career but I was always

437
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,240
interested in the work part of
it.

438
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:45,240
And a few years later, a very
patient gentleman, JT McDonald,

439
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,160
doing an Aerosmith rehearsal up
in Boston when they were going

440
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,280
out on a tour.
I had shown a little incentive

441
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,200
and walked up to him and said,
well can I help you?

442
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,880
And he said, well you know how
to run a lighting console.

443
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,720
And at that point I had made my
first console which goes back to

444
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,480
the punk rock days for just a
second of I didn't have a dimmer

445
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,040
board.
And one of my greatest pieces of

446
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,480
gear I ever found in my life was
a dimmer board because my first

447
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,840
console was toggle switches and
duplex outlets flashing trash.

448
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,080
It was only it's only 6 power
cans and it was punk rock.

449
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,960
So if you can make a show out of
that, I believe you can make a

450
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,280
show out of just about any
moving light fixture.

451
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,240
So you know what, Jim?
Funny.

452
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,560
So I started in my first band
when I was I think 12 as a

453
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:38,080
singer and we built and and I
think I did it with my my dad in

454
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:43,520
my garage a like a wooden box
with six light switches on it,

455
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,440
just little light switches and
plugs on the back of it.

456
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,040
And we didn't even have park
hands.

457
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,560
We had like floodlights from you
know the 50 year ago equivalent

458
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,920
of Home Depot and you know they
were just literally like like

459
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,440
you know, PAR lamps or flood
lamps and that was that was my

460
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,560
first lighting system so.
Some people got it.

461
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,520
One more story on those to put a
a coffee can around them, right?

462
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,680
Yeah, it would.
We turned them into a little par

463
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,200
can.
But you know, that was the first

464
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,040
thing I found, you know, and and
once you can control something

465
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,640
off a dimmer you, you know, a
whole lot of creative thoughts

466
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,360
came out.
And so I had been in the right

467
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,440
place at the right time.
I saw a lighting plot on one of

468
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,760
the road cases at the rehearsal
when we were setting up.

469
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,120
And I was just a a general hand.
And I looked at it and when I

470
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,800
went out to the console, I said
wow and looked at the plot and

471
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,280
the guy that just climbed up, he
was sending me out there for

472
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,320
focus to run the board.
And I looked at the plot and I

473
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,800
brought up the first channel
that he needed without him

474
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,480
asking and he said, oh, how'd
you know which one we needed?

475
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,520
I said, I looked at the plot and
he goes, well, pretty, pretty

476
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,360
good.
And a couple of days later,

477
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,680
after the rehearsal loaded out,
the third guy on the tour

478
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,280
couldn't do it.
He called me and said, how'd you

479
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,480
like to do a tour?
And I went down to New York and

480
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,640
literally with my feet still
sticking on the floor from the

481
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,920
bar floor and the the club, I
jumped right over and found

482
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,400
myself on a very nice tour.
There was a couple of gigs in

483
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,880
between, but that was my first
real break.

484
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,600
I went on a couple of small
things before that.

485
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,240
The Jay Giles band went out with
a a local band as opening act as

486
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,520
I think a backline tech and.
But what was that period of

487
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,760
time, Jim?
Like, you know, from the time

488
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,200
you were hanging out in The Rat
to when you got to actually

489
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,320
start working on lighting to
when you got that gig on a tour.

490
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,400
Four years and a lot of gigs in
between.

491
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,560
A lot of local stuff, a lot of
switching around different

492
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,960
clubs.
I I moved on to another club,

493
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,720
just bounced around for about
four years.

494
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Anything and anything I could do
work for a couple of local

495
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,360
lighting and sound companies.
But once I found myself on that

496
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,320
first large tour.
The very first tour, like I said

497
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:14,680
was just as an opening act.
But the after I let our show the

498
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,400
opening act left.
It was replaced by U2 on the J.

499
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,000
Geils Band in 1982.
I think it was and it was the

500
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Freeze Frame tour and they
didn't really have a place for

501
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,920
him as they came over on their
first tour and they ended up on

502
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,280
that.
And I learned the strong lesson

503
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,400
of never underestimate the
opening act because I know a few

504
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,600
of the the Lititz Audio company.
I won't put it in in by name but

505
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,880
everybody knows who they are.
I saw a couple of people help

506
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,720
out the opening act and they
didn't have enough cash for the

507
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,800
you know to to pay the the
standard 50 or $60 to run the

508
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,880
opening act thing And they were
nice enough to say, well we

509
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,200
don't have it could you help us
out.

510
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,640
And they said sure.
And I believe that was the story

511
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,640
of a few of the guys that don't
forget us if you ever get big

512
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,960
and they remember those guys and
I believe that was you know

513
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,320
where where some of the guys
that they first got on that

514
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,800
tour.
And it was a big lesson to learn

515
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,000
of Never underestimate the.
Yeah, but let me that's an

516
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,360
interesting story that you tell.
So are you saying that the

517
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,600
opening act would have to Was it
a vig that they had to pay the

518
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840
audio guy or was it was?
It courtesy.

519
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,200
Yeah.
It was your hour off you know.

520
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,280
So if it was lighting front of
house audio or monitors it was

521
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,160
just kind of a general thing.
Hey, if we don't have our own

522
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,920
person, could you run the board
for the?

523
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,440
So it's not to use the sound
system, 'cause that's part of

524
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,120
the part of the deal, right?
So they get to use the sound

525
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,800
system, but they need their own
audio guy.

526
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,400
And if they don't have their own
guy, they just go to the front

527
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,560
of house engineer and say, hey,
you know, here's 50 bucks, can

528
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,480
you do our show for us too?
It wasn't mandatory, but it was

529
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,640
the general, you know, kind of
like, hey, it's my hour off and

530
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,400
everybody you know, but a lot of
people said, hey, they don't

531
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,880
have it.
Can you help us out?

532
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,120
And that's that's the the great
thing about it is that you never

533
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,800
know who's going to be your next
artist to to work for.

534
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,840
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.

535
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:13,800
You two.
Wow.

536
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,960
So you two opened for J Giles.
Yes, a very small part, I think.

537
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,920
We weren't on those shows,
'cause we were the opening act

538
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,600
before that, but I believe it
was for about 2/3 of the tour

539
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,840
and J Giles was on the top of
the charts.

540
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,400
And at two years later, I
believe J Giles kind of called

541
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,840
it, put it on hiatus for a
little bit and you two was going

542
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
out to the stadium.
So, yeah, quick turn around.

543
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,920
That's wild.
Yeah, that's a cool story.

544
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,720
Yeah.
So that was your first tour,

545
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,720
then the the J Giles thing was
your first?

546
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,280
Real tour, first real.
There was a couple little

547
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,280
regional, you know, venturing
out a little bit with some local

548
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,800
acts, but that was the first one
where I actually got on a bus

549
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,800
and started doing it.
And what was your role?

550
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,080
You were a lighting tech or?
On the very first one I was

551
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,240
backline.
I actually did some backline

552
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,080
work on that and then.
What was that like?

553
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,320
You know, how old were you then?
Probably in your early 20s, I'm

554
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,400
guessing.
Yes, 21 ish.

555
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,120
Yeah, somewhere around there.
And I believe my first luggage

556
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920
was a milk crate.
Oh my God, that's.

557
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,920
Wild.
I had to run out to the store

558
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,760
and buy a a duffel bag because I
I left.

559
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,840
I left home with a literally a
milk crate in my clothes in it.

560
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,040
Yeah, that's that's like my son.
Like, I'll get on a flight with

561
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,200
my son and he'll walk on
carrying like a Publix grocery

562
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,840
store shopping bag.
And I'm like, why are you

563
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,560
bringing food?
And he goes, no, this is my

564
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,600
clothes.
I'm like, dude, what are you

565
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,440
doing?
Like, I bought him a really nice

566
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,120
suitcase because he travels a
lot.

567
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,880
But you know, if it's just a
couple, like a pair of pants and

568
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,120
a couple pairs of underwear and
a couple T-shirts, you know, he

569
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,600
just brings a Publix bag.
It's pretty funny.

570
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,800
I've learned to travel light,
but not I still couldn't get

571
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,360
into a Bill crit.
Yeah, that's funny.

572
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,880
But I mean, was it weird being
away from home for that long and

573
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,400
away from your friends and like,
do you remember that being an

574
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,040
issue or were your eyes this big
going?

575
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,320
I get.
To see the world, yeah, I didn't

576
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,120
know.
I had no, no issues of doing

577
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,440
that.
I met my my wife of 49 years and

578
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,159
she doesn't want me to say that.
But we've been together probably

579
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,120
about a year after I think I
started it, and we've been

580
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,960
together ever since.
So my determination was to make

581
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,440
a good living and send it home
and buy a house, pay off the

582
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,199
mortgage and, you know,
eventually come back home and

583
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,199
enjoy that.
But I stayed on the road a

584
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:42,639
little longer than I thought I
was going.

585
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,480
To yeah, well and stop in and
see her every once in a while,

586
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,320
hopefully.
But you, you met her on the

587
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,600
road.
You met her while you were

588
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,679
touring.
No.

589
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:51,920
Met her when?
Met her kids.

590
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,880
Yeah, met her.
That's cool.

591
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:54,360
Yeah, met her.
So she's.

592
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:55,800
Not in my home business or
anything.

593
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,720
No.
I dragged her into it, though.

594
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Oh, you did.
Which probably looked really

595
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,000
good until you got to COVID.
And then it was like, we're all

596
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
we're all dying.
We're all broke now.

597
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,600
I was very grateful that I was.
I was very lucky to have gotten

598
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,880
a job with my current employer,
Vectorworks, right before COVID.

599
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,840
So I didn't have to worry about
when the industry kind of shut

600
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,160
down.
And I know a lot of people were

601
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,280
not in a good position of that
and our hearts go out to anybody

602
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,160
that didn't have work.
I was one of the very fortunate

603
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,560
ones that everybody was learning
our product.

604
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,200
So I stayed busy.
I know quite a few marriages

605
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,360
that where they're both in in
the industry and those were the

606
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,640
ones that I really felt for, you
know, where they were both like

607
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,920
one was a production manager and
the other was a seamstress or a

608
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,240
you know, whatever.
And I mean they were both

609
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,520
suddenly completely out of work
for 18 months or whatever.

610
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,760
I I really felt for those people
and I I was doing a weekly

611
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,400
podcast that that or not a
podcast but a a zoom call that

612
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,160
we just called, you know the
weekly happy hour or something.

613
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,360
It was every Wednesday at 5:00
and it was for the live events

614
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,200
industry and we'd have 50 people
one week, 100 the next week, 40

615
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,320
the next weekend.
But it was sort of a who's who

616
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,120
and lots of new friends too.
Like lots of people that I

617
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,840
didn't know before that were
caterers or truck drivers or

618
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,960
whatever and anyone was invited.
It was a drop in, basically, and

619
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,280
just some of the stories were
just so sad, you know, not not

620
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,440
of death and and sickness, but
I'm talking about just the

621
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,480
financial ruin and how that
impacted families and households

622
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,440
and stuff.
It was tough.

623
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,360
Really relationships as well.
There was a nice talk at the

624
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,440
event Safety Alliance the year
before last.

625
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,840
And they had a gentleman that
came in and was a registered

626
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,840
healthcare worker and spoke
about how all of a sudden

627
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,440
everybody in our industry was
now 12 months together in a

628
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,560
two-bedroom apartment in New
York with 700 square feet and

629
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,960
their lives were OK.
I'm gone six months now.

630
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,840
I'm gone three months and never
being in the same place more

631
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,080
than a couple of months.
I was lucky that we had, you

632
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,800
know, basement that I kind of
I'm going to move down here and

633
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,200
I'm going to have my own little
office.

634
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,720
So I I had a nice situation, but
a lot of people didn't.

635
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,600
And I didn't realize until that
gentleman spoke about that,

636
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,120
yeah, that it was an industry
wide issue of a lot of

637
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,280
relationships not quite making
it through.

638
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,440
Well, remember, like a lot of
people, I talked to so many

639
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,920
people all the time in our
industry, and so many people

640
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,400
hadn't seen their wife for six
months all at once.

641
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,200
Like they've never been together
for six months all at once, let

642
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,200
alone 18 months or whatever.
But I remember a lot of those

643
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,080
conversations, Like the longest
I've ever been in the same place

644
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,200
as my wife was a couple of
months, you know, And now here I

645
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,600
am going on the second year.
And yeah, there's been some

646
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,880
tense moments where it's like,
when are you gonna leave, you

647
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,920
know?
I think it's so much easier now

648
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,600
though for people on the road.
And I'm not saying, you know,

649
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,800
that, you know, we walk through
5 feet of snow to get to school

650
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,680
everyday kind of story.
But we didn't talk to anybody

651
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,440
for a week at a, you know, to
our loved ones, you know, for a

652
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,200
week at a time because it was
limited to a hotel.

653
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,600
And half the time to save a
little bit of money.

654
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,920
You get on to the lobby and use
the payphone and you wouldn't

655
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,000
talk to people for 3-4 days.
There was time when my wife

656
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,600
didn't know where I was for a
couple of weeks at a time other

657
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,720
than looking at the itinerary,
but she didn't have any real way

658
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,840
to get a hold of me.
And there was some tours, didn't

659
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,120
even have production phones.
So literally you had to do, you

660
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,840
know, checking on a phone,
trying to fix a console at 725 /

661
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,200
a pay phone in the in the lobby
of an arena.

662
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,120
And that was just a make.
Crazy to remember that stuff.

663
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,640
That's.
It as nuts to remember that

664
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,760
stuff.
One of the smartest people was

665
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,600
if someone got a cordless phone
and put it in a hamper in one of

666
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,880
the dressing rooms and was able
to plug it into one of the the

667
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,320
Watts lines for the broadcast
and we finally had a cordless

668
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,720
phone on the bus.
That's awesome.

669
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,400
That was the first of the
wireless communication on the.

670
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,160
Bus, that's awesome.
No, But it's wild to think about

671
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,760
stuff like that.
Like, I've never thought of

672
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,960
that, that trying to do a
service call to fix, you know

673
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,920
anything, a light fixture or a
dimming rack or whatever it is.

674
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,840
But you gotta go to the, you
gotta go to the payphone in the

675
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,480
in the venue, I mean.
At 7:25?

676
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,480
That's insane.
Console's down at 7:25 and

677
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,840
you've literally got to call,
you know, somewhat to help you

678
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:47,880
through it.
Yeah.

679
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,200
And some some tours just did not
want to pay for the production

680
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,680
phones.
But, but you know what?

681
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,680
You're right though, 'cause
like, you know, like we say at

682
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,120
our age, kids these days, you
know, but they they, it is

683
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,520
easier.
You can do 2 hour Facetimes

684
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,360
every night with your kids and
your wife and stuff, right?

685
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,040
Like, it's much easier now that
we have, you know, FaceTime and

686
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,440
Zoom and all of these great
tools where we can be more

687
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,760
together.
And it's still not the same as

688
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,600
being in the same room, but it's
a hell of a lot closer than a

689
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,000
payphone in the lobby, you know,
or being in the production

690
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,200
office where the production
manager is like, OK, you got 2

691
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,600
minutes.
That's it, 2 minutes.

692
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,200
And then I want you out of here,
you know, and you're trying to

693
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,760
tell your wife you love her and
you got the production manager

694
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,520
sitting next to you going it's a
minute and 1/2 right now, you

695
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,120
know, So yeah, that's pretty
wild.

696
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,760
So how how did your career
evolve then?

697
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040
Cuz you started it in backline
and and how'd you end up

698
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,480
spending so many great years in
lighting?

699
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,240
Like, how'd you take that next
step?

700
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,600
Well, I thought I was gonna be
get into audio, to tell you the

701
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,760
truth, but the first time I ever
got my hands on a real console,

702
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,200
I was not good at it.
I did not have the ear and I

703
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,600
just.
I was literally tearing up

704
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,920
drivers because I didn't know
how to control it.

705
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,680
And I was a drummer, so I just
all wanted to just hear drums,

706
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,240
drums, drums.
So I didn't make a good audio

707
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:18,440
person and I just kind of fell
into lighting and into the

708
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,800
visual end of it, and I really
enjoyed that part of it and

709
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,840
never really looked back.
Later on I got more you know a

710
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,640
little more into the the
production end of it.

711
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,120
But for the most part I just
really loved painting that

712
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,440
picture in my mind.
And long before we had you know,

713
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,800
visualization software and all
the the virtual world, I

714
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,520
remember what I wanted to see in
my head when I was listening to

715
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,920
a song and I would just evolve
this little lighting beam

716
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,200
picture and it really, it was
just all really about beams back

717
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,440
then you there was no aerial
effects.

718
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,000
If we had a little bit of, you
know, we never needed a hazer

719
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,040
because most of the places we
were working in, smoking was

720
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,960
still allowed.
So there was abundance of

721
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,080
atmosphere which really made the
show look good.

722
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,760
I'll tell you that I know it's
not politically correct to smoke

723
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,440
in venues, but it was, it was
one of those times when the air

724
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,080
just had a saturation that
everything looked good

725
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,000
everywhere.
But it was one of those ones

726
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,240
where I never looked at the
equipment as being my deciding

727
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:21,760
factor in a design.
It was really about what's

728
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,400
there, make the best of it and
you know, what's the building,

729
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,040
You got a low, low ceiling, use
it as you can and just kind of

730
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,800
spread things out to make it,
you know, look as big as it can.

731
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,480
And it was really that whole
mentality and it was all really

732
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,840
about, you know, the the
rock'n'roll side of it.

733
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,600
I really never learned formal
design and still I started doing

734
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,520
you know, like the corporate
where it was a real finesse or

735
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,760
doing acts.
When as I I started moving on, I

736
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,400
got to work with some great acts
that were a little more out of

737
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,440
my taste range.
What I listen to, but a lot more

738
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,000
on the creative side.
One of them being Neil Diamond.

739
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,200
And I believe Marilyn Lowry was
her name.

740
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,880
And what is a big inspiration to
me to take a design to that next

741
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:18,320
level in finesse, in creative
timing and not just slam the

742
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,720
buttons and heavy metal kind of
shows.

743
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,600
And that was a big driving
factor and just some great

744
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,680
designers and looking how
everybody did things and just

745
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,160
kind of learning along the way
how, how people did it.

746
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,440
So but your first, so you went
from backline to what Lighting

747
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,600
Tech 1st and then eventually got
to the board or how did that

748
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,760
work?
No, the first I was a lot of the

749
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,480
local stuff.
I was running a board.

750
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,400
I was actually a house LD for a
couple of clubs.

751
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,200
Oh cool.
And started doing that.

752
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,880
And that was going out.
As you know, I knew the console

753
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,400
well by the time I hit a tour.
The tour is when I really

754
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,480
started being as a lighting tech
and working my way up through

755
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,080
that.
It was a couple of years before

756
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,640
I started, you know when I
started doing large tours that I

757
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,000
actually got on the console, a
lot of it for the opening act.

758
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,560
That was where you got your
first break and then you know if

759
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,640
the opening act went out the
next tour they would, you know.

760
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,160
So that was the big jump.
There is some of the opening

761
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,360
acts progressed and I was able
to stay with them when they

762
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,200
headline.
So that was a cool way and

763
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,480
learning a lot from being a
stagehand.

764
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,440
And at first, when I first went
into the arenas, I didn't

765
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,240
understand the level of
competency that some of the

766
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:36,480
stagehands have.
Some of them are just there to,

767
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,840
you know, make a next, you know,
a good living, but don't really

768
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,960
get into the technical side of
it.

769
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,920
They just find their niche to
just, you know, put food on the

770
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,120
table.
Others are there and had my gig

771
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,920
20 years before I did.
And you know, they all know you

772
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,800
know how to do things
differently, a different show

773
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,080
every day.
So I learned a lot from watching

774
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,760
that and how different crews got
along.

775
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,960
Different companies use
different gear, different

776
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,640
companies package things
differently and you just saw the

777
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,920
the the good and the bad and you
kind of learn from that as well.

778
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,840
So were you freelancing at that
point, or you were working

779
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,480
through a company?
Yeah, all freelance.

780
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,000
All all freelance at that point,
you know it.

781
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,640
It was pretty much just word of
mouth, you know, you need any

782
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,640
help?
Who's doing this tour?

783
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,280
Who's doing that?
He can't make it.

784
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,680
She can't do this.
Well, can I do it?

785
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,800
Yeah, kind of thing.
So and.

786
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,800
And so this was, you know you
were in Boston, so this would

787
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,160
have been a lot of the Northeast
companies like C Factor and

788
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,160
stuff like that or?
Correct.

789
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,000
Yeah.
But there was Pollico, which

790
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,040
became East Coast Lighting in
production.

791
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,040
In Pollico.
Yeah, Bob and Andy up there

792
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,360
started that and they actually
had the the J Geil show.

793
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,480
They had some of the first gear
up in Boston and they were the

794
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,560
1st that I ever worked with that
had you know pre rigged Truss

795
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,320
and lamp bars and you didn't
hang every single fixture in

796
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,520
one, one lamp, one cable kind of
set up and they were the first

797
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,640
ones I believe they had.
It wasn't socapex, it was

798
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,880
another brand lap cable, but it
was the first time where we had

799
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,640
like multi cable and the
breakouts and it's like wow,

800
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,680
this is so much easier and we
were able to set up you know in

801
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,600
two hours two, you know, two
sticks of Truss and you know

802
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,400
ready to go.
Which used to take, yeah, all

803
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,120
day or a half a day or
something, yeah.

804
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,960
In aluminum park hands, I might
mentioned, yeah, yeah, which was

805
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,200
a big plus in the industry.
Huge advancement, yes.

806
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,120
I mean it's funny that when we
think back, you know, like the

807
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,200
advancements that are being made
now in lighting versus back

808
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,640
then, you know going from steel
to to aluminum, it was like you

809
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,840
know now.
Someone asked me what was the

810
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,680
biggest thing that was added to
a lighting rig that that made

811
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,320
the biggest difference you can
think of all these fixtures and

812
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,520
all these effects.
How about a Truss ladder?

813
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,240
Because when I first started
you, you shinied up the Genie

814
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:08,160
Lift or or you should eat up the
cable and some of those bundles

815
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,000
cable were a little hard to
grab.

816
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,280
Yeah.
And kidding.

817
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,800
Yeah.
And when I first saw a trustler,

818
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,400
I said what a great idea.
Coming down the down the cable

819
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,520
was easy.
Going up the cable was a little

820
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,080
harder.
I'm sure when you go to these

821
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,280
ESA events, some of those
stories that scare the hell out

822
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,720
of those guys, it's like, no,
please don't.

823
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:29,480
You didn't do that.
We're very lucky to be talking

824
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,320
about it and protection a lot.
You know, a short story about

825
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:38,240
that Bob C called us.
And I remember one time after

826
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,080
loading, you know, a bunch of
trucks in the rain, 2:00 in the

827
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,600
morning, he called us up to the
office and said, hey, got an

828
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,520
idea and wanted to bounce it off
a few of us.

829
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,240
And it was very close to what we
see in fall protection now.

830
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,480
And he thought about that 1980
something and he saw it and we

831
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,440
said strain all that, all those
lines through the motors every

832
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,520
day.
That's going to slow us down and

833
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,360
too cumbersome.
And we we didn't really latch on

834
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,440
to that idea.
And it didn't happen for a few

835
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,760
years, but not too long after
someone engineered that type of

836
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,520
system.
Bob saw something in the future

837
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,280
and was was looking out for his
guys and I got to give him that

838
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,680
credit.
You know I've always been AI was

839
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,840
close friends with Bob and I've
always been a big fan of Bob.

840
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,800
See like I I just think he's one
of the you know he's there's a

841
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,920
lot of reason for the the you
know lack of love towards him

842
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,120
from some people like he he
could be a bit of a tyrant at

843
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,920
times but he was a very
innovative guy Like he he really

844
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:44,800
he was a smart guy that that
came up with a lot of really

845
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,000
great ideas and concepts and
ways to do things that other

846
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,920
people weren't thinking of.
It's just he didn't always give

847
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,760
credit where credit was due on
some of that stuff, you know and

848
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,400
so.
Nurtured Some of the best.

849
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,200
Some of the best in the industry
came out of that shop in the

850
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:05,160
early 80s and a long.
List a long list of people you

851
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,040
know.
But he he, you know, he was one

852
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,440
of those type of people that
tested you, you know, after like

853
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,320
I said, you know, loading 4
trucks in the rain, you know,

854
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,080
and getting out of there at 2:00
in the morning, you got to be

855
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,320
back in a few hours.
Yeah, he would.

856
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,040
He would test you and he'd he'd
hand you a broom and say sweep

857
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,280
the shop.
Yeah.

858
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,040
And if you just took the broom
and asked him, you know, just

859
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,200
said whatever you need and did
it.

860
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,120
You found yourself on a very
nice tour for a few months.

861
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,560
If you took it and went how come
me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

862
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,960
you might find yourself on Blue
Boys to go for 30 shows in 31

863
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,480
days which I remember some of
the guys was was a was a brutal

864
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,480
yeah.
But you know he if you can't

865
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,360
handle the pressure of being
asked to sweep the shop, you

866
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,400
might not do so good when you
show up at Madison Square Garden

867
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,720
and might be in a tense
situation and know how to handle

868
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:56,600
it.
So it was a little test.

869
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,160
I like that stuff though.
Like, I don't know how you are,

870
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,240
but you know, again, being
older, one of the things is I

871
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:05,960
really do like the old school
way of doing things.

872
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,280
Like I really do like when you
stepped out of line, you got a

873
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,240
foot up your ass and that kind
of stuff.

874
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,520
You know, I I think some of that
stuff is definitely missing

875
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:20,160
today, you know, from my own son
and and other people's kids and

876
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,840
stuff who have had it pretty
easy for the most part, which is

877
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,200
great.
I mean, we all want to take

878
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,040
amazing care of our kids and
give them everything we can, but

879
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,640
at the same time, sometimes you
got to put your foot up their

880
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:31,680
ass.
You.

881
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,880
Know, I will admit I was one of
the ones that didn't take the

882
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,640
broom with the smile a few times
until I learned.

883
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,800
Yeah, but so.
So how many, how many times did

884
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,200
you tour with Blue Öyster Cult
then?

885
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,000
No, never had to do that one.
Never had to do that.

886
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,480
I but I, you know, that was one
of the ones where we got it.

887
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,200
There was some great shows back
then.

888
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,160
They weren't the longest tours,
but there was things like the

889
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,720
Simon and Garfunkel tour I was
on just for, you know, a a very

890
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:59,600
short period of that.
And looking back on it, it was,

891
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,560
you know, some of the nicest
things I ever did.

892
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,280
Was through that.
Yeah, did.

893
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,360
You ever do rush with with
Howard?

894
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,720
I filled in for for someone for
a few shows and I was, I was,

895
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,640
you know, around long enough to
see some of the inner workings

896
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,440
of that show and that was a real
family.

897
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,320
They treated their crew like
family.

898
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,600
That was just, it was a great
situation for those guys.

899
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,760
Yeah, Howard's a really good
friend.

900
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,960
He's he's been on the podcast a
couple times and had some pretty

901
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,480
cool stories.
Did he ever tell you the story

902
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,800
about the the when they were
trying to pick up girls and the

903
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,160
girl said, OK, I'll go out with
you, but only if you can bring

904
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,800
me a horse.
No.

905
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,440
It's a great story.
You're gonna have to go back to

906
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,960
the podcast and listen.
To oh that that I'm interested

907
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,200
in.
I wrote it to Howard every once

908
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,520
in a while.
Great designer.

909
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,600
I love the guy.
He's a great man.

910
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,520
You know what I mean?
Like all of you guys are great

911
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,160
designers and and I'm sure you
guys all, you know, sort of

912
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,120
measure each other about by how
good your designs are.

913
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,960
For me, I just like people, you
know and and Howard's just a

914
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,280
great guy.
I just, you know, I I pretty

915
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,440
much chat with him every day
through Instagram or something.

916
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,560
He'll send me something stupid
and I'll send him back.

917
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,920
I'm stupid but.
What I remember about that Rush

918
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,640
rig and any of the stuff he did,
I remember there was 28 Volt

919
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,320
dimmers in the shop that was
specifically for Rush.

920
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,680
Yeah, because of the aircraft
landing lights and there was so

921
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,440
much beam action going on in
there.

922
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,280
Yeah, that that was the one
thing that I remember about that

923
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:32,680
show.
Yeah, yeah.

924
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,440
Well, he did it a long time.
And you know, now I'm seeing

925
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,080
rumors of them going back out
again with a different drummer.

926
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,200
So.
They said they'd never do that.

927
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,240
So I don't know what's true and
what's not true.

928
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,880
You know, God, God knows.
Nobody would lie on the

929
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,600
Internet.
It's all got to be true on

930
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,560
social media.
Kidding.

931
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,360
They've got a that show just has
a great in the background humor

932
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,880
too and it's it's a great.
Show well, sometimes it's not in

933
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,640
the background, the sausage
making machine and the washer.

934
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,000
And dryer.
The washer and dryer.

935
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:04,560
Yeah, that's my favorite.
The washer.

936
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:05,880
I mean, they're.
They're hilarious.

937
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,640
And and the intro videos that
they did, you know, where

938
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,480
Getty's like an old Jewish woman
or something, you know, I mean,

939
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,240
it's just funny stuff.
Like they laugh at themselves

940
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,880
all the time, you know?
So yeah, great band.

941
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,760
I mean, obviously I grew up in
Canada so I'm a Rush fan to

942
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:21,480
start with.
But.

943
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,640
But I was a bass player and a
singer growing up and so you had

944
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,360
to be a Getty Lee just nut job.
So I had every Rickenbacker bass

945
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,760
he'd had and I bought a
Steinberger.

946
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,920
When he got a Steinberger, I got
a Fender.

947
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,760
When he got a Fender, like, I
just had to have whatever Getty.

948
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,640
I had bass pedals on the floor.
I I bought a keyboard so I could

949
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,200
learn to play subdivisions on
the keyboard and stuff.

950
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,400
You know it's stupid, but.
I think that is one of the most

951
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,960
humorous things I have ever seen
in the industry.

952
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,520
Is being on the stage side of a
Rush show and watching all the

953
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,720
58 year old air drummers in the
1st 20 rows.

954
00:53:57,720 --> 00:53:59,800
Crazy, isn't it?
That that that is a moment.

955
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,080
And no girls.
No girls. 0 girls.

956
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,800
You know it's not a place you go
to pick up girls.

957
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,760
A Rush concert?
No, it's all just dudes playing

958
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,040
air guitar and air drums and air
whatever.

959
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,880
Yeah, it's like there's a Long
Island band called Dream Theater

960
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,880
who same thing, you know, All
men, all men in the.

961
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,120
Audience.
Yeah, they're still touring.

962
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,960
They're they're an incredible
band but no it's it's funny So,

963
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,560
so you know we've covered some
of your earliest stuff and and I

964
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:38,120
mean how did that turn into
like, so you spent what, 30 odd

965
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:44,240
years on the road touring.
Yeah, about 90 twoish.

966
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,400
I had gotten off the road from
doing rock stuff for a little

967
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:55,680
bit and a friend had joined
who's worked with audio analyst

968
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,400
AS as one of their tech guys.
And he moved on into a career

969
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,320
with a company called New
England Digital that made the

970
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,880
Cinclavier the first digital
workstation and he was in their

971
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,960
marketing department, He says.
Well, you've designed, you've

972
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:16,360
done some rock'n'roll lighting.
You ever do a trade show?

973
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:17,960
And I said, oh, Oh yeah, yeah,
you.

974
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:21,880
Yeah, and.
I just said, yeah, well, well,

975
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,040
you know, if I can light some
drunk rock star running around a

976
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,800
stage, I can easily light up a
computer station, right?

977
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,320
I didn't realize how how much
finesse there was.

978
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:35,480
And about halfway through doing
that project, they had gotten a

979
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,760
little bit of a debate with
their exhibit designer and they

980
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,840
said, well, you've designed some
scenic stuff.

981
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,680
I said, well, yeah, sure.
So I jumped into that side and

982
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:51,040
started doing the entire
exhibition and corporate event

983
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,840
design and I didn't really.
Yeah, for that show.

984
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,000
And then he moved on to another
company and it was called Data

985
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,320
Translations.
And then it went into a company

986
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:08,400
that was doing digital video
editing software called Media

987
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:14,840
100 and they kind of had the 1st
all in one digital video

988
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,160
workstation that was available
for a fraction of the price of

989
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,400
an Avid system.
So they got a lot of traction

990
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,360
and I started getting to do some
really large exhibits with them

991
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,720
and they passed me on to all
their clients.

992
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,200
And without ever handing a
business card, we had a booming

993
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,720
business during the the.com era.
It was all technology.

994
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:38,600
So we just dove into that and
never looked back.

995
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,800
And that's when I dragged my
wife into the office and said I

996
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,480
need help.
And we knew so many people in

997
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,880
production that I didn't really
have to have staff a whole

998
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,720
company because I had such
resource of talented people.

999
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,880
So you were just putting the
whole production together?

1000
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,280
The whole thing.
So oh wow.

1001
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,600
That's cool.
We started doing really big

1002
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,000
stuff where we're doing
exhibitions and more of a

1003
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,640
rock'n'roll style.
So everything I learned about

1004
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:08,200
how to package and how to tour a
show, we brought into the

1005
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,520
exhibit world.
We weren't the first ones out

1006
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,280
there to be using fabric, but we
were one of the first to be

1007
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,320
hanging, you know, rental Truss
and fabric and lots of moving

1008
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,040
lights, lots of color.
We started using projection and

1009
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,080
then as LED walls came into, you
know, profit, you know, where

1010
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,920
they could be affordable to to
bring out to the trade show

1011
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,200
world.
We started doing that and a lot

1012
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,800
of companies said, well this is
great because we don't have to

1013
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,080
store all this.
It looks big.

1014
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,440
It was vibrant.
A message could change all the

1015
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,400
time with the content.
So we kind of started doing

1016
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,160
trade shows rock'n'roll style.
One time I even used Kabuki's to

1017
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,080
get my drops out of the air
faster, so we didn't have to

1018
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,640
wait for the trust to come down
before we could pack it up and

1019
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,480
leave.
And we were getting, you know, a

1020
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,160
lot of success with that.
So yeah, I mean that.

1021
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:58,320
Was fun that market, the the
tech companies and probably like

1022
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:03,520
the E3 show, like the video game
stuff really seemed to drive

1023
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,200
that, like that real
entertainment rock'n'roll,

1024
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,400
theatrical kind of look into the
trade shows.

1025
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,520
That's where I said nab.
Anyway, yeah, nab.

1026
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,000
NAB was another one.
Comdex was the granddaddy of

1027
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,880
shows in Las Vegas.
I think it was 135,000 attendees

1028
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,080
at that show.
So there was a lot of places to

1029
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,280
show off your craft there.
Yeah, you know, one time I was

1030
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,040
at NAB and I think it was the
first time I ever went to it.

1031
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,480
It was probably late 90s or
something.

1032
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,720
And I was in the elevator and
like 5 Sony guys come into the

1033
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:44,640
elevator.
And I, I said wow, you know, you

1034
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,360
guys are all with Sony, I guess.
And he goes, yeah, yeah we are.

1035
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,600
And I said this must be a big
show for you guys.

1036
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,280
He goes, yeah, I think we have
9000 people here this year.

1037
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,880
I mean I was like what?
How could one company have 9000

1038
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,640
people at a trade show?
Between all the training and all

1039
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:08,040
all this, the general sessions.
But one of the the best people

1040
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:13,920
in the business, Roy Bickel just
such an industry innovator and

1041
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:19,120
just saw him last December out
at Rock Lititz conference and

1042
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:23,400
he's still at it And he is just
was such an inspiration to to

1043
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:28,760
all of us in the industry.
And he was the head rigger at

1044
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:33,520
the Las Vegas Convention Center
for a lot of the exhibition

1045
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,560
contractors.
And he just brought something he

1046
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,920
saw all of a sudden NAB.
You looked up and there was a

1047
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:46,280
sea of lighting rigs and it was
amazing at how many points were

1048
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:51,360
hung in that hall so quickly.
And how are, you know, the live

1049
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,840
event technology just immersed
itself in that world and how

1050
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,760
much work people were getting
not only from the people

1051
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,640
designing it in the vendors but
to the people working there as

1052
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,720
well.
And it was amazing if you

1053
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,200
didn't, if you didn't remember
your motor power.

1054
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,640
Well, I ordered all my power.
Well, you forgot your motor

1055
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:12,680
power and you showed up on site
and you got in the line of, you

1056
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,480
know, service orders.
You could be hours and and even

1057
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,680
days before you got your motor
power.

1058
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,040
And a mistake like that in the
in the trade show world, it's

1059
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,440
one thing when you go into an
arena and you're you're the only

1060
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,560
production there that day and
everybody caters to you and and

1061
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,120
if you need power, yeah, sure,
we'll get right on it.

1062
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,560
But when you're just one of 700
lighting rigs in the room that

1063
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,840
day and you don't have your
paperwork together, you find out

1064
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,520
just how quickly you can lose
money as a vendor.

1065
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,480
That was a learning experience
for us.

1066
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,040
So did you start a company
around that whole thing or was

1067
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,920
that just basically you and and
your wife or?

1068
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,880
Yeah, just myself and my wife
and a few other people that we

1069
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,560
brought in, you know, was a
couple people in the shop.

1070
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,680
But really we just had you know,
a minimal staff and we just

1071
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:06,600
hired great production people
from the touring industry or you

1072
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,960
know from a local people that I
had worked with for so long that

1073
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,720
it was great to just have all
those resources but not have to

1074
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:19,240
have a sustainable company to be
payroll in case it slowed down.

1075
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:26,200
Unfortunately, theendofthe.com
industry about 2002 just

1076
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,880
imploded on itself and we
switched back to live and and

1077
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,320
started doing other things.
So it's nice to have those

1078
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,800
skills during a time when it was
booming, but also, you know, to

1079
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,800
have the knowledge of when to
just say either the company has

1080
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,640
to get real big or you got to
give it up.

1081
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,880
And we didn't want to support a
payroll.

1082
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,240
I didn't have the inclination to
to have, you know, large company

1083
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,760
regardless because my my real
love was in drafting and

1084
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,120
designing.
So that was kind of the later

1085
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:58,880
point.
Did you ever, did you ever buy

1086
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,440
gear in that business?
Like did you?

1087
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,200
Minimal, yeah, minimal.
Just enough to get by.

1088
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,840
And then we would, we would have
all our conventional a few

1089
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,520
dimmer racks, you know and all.
And then we would just rent our

1090
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,800
the, you know, any of the
intelligent lighting at the time

1091
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,240
it was.
Pretty common, yeah, that's

1092
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,440
pretty common is you, you buy
the infrastructure and rent the

1093
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,720
the fixtures because everybody
has their own thoughts or needs

1094
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,480
or whatever for fixtures.
But I'm seeing more and more of

1095
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:33,120
these sort of hybrid design
firms who it started where they

1096
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:34,800
were just buying their own
consoles.

1097
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,400
You know they they'd buy
initially hogs and and then

1098
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,440
eventually MA consoles.
And you know as they were owning

1099
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,760
all these MIMA consoles and
looking at their financials at

1100
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,160
the end of the year they were
going hey this gear is actually

1101
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,400
earning us pretty good.
So next thing you know they own

1102
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,640
2 or 300 moving lights, 1000
feet of Truss and and you know

1103
01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:01,200
they're basically dry hire
lighting companies that are then

1104
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,560
renting their own gear back to
those production companies who

1105
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,560
are doing the tour or whatever.
So I see that more and more

1106
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,560
often now where they're
designing their own products

1107
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,360
into the tour.
And then the pandemic hits.

1108
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,600
Well, yeah, and then you're.
Carrying big expenses and stuff.

1109
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,240
But the nice thing about owning
gear when the pandemic hit is

1110
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,880
you used that as currency, you
know.

1111
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,160
And with with my company, we we
saw a lot of companies like that

1112
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,840
where you know they they needed
the money to pay their mortgage

1113
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,320
or to to pay to survive or
whatever.

1114
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,120
And so they were selling off
gear.

1115
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,760
And there's always buyers.
Even in a pandemic, there's

1116
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:38,960
always buyers.
Installs.

1117
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,320
Yeah, installs were going good.
Even just deep pocket, well

1118
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,120
invested, well funded lighting,
rental companies, sound rental

1119
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,880
companies who are like, hey, the
pandemic's going to end at some

1120
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,760
point.
I want to have all this gear

1121
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,720
when it ends and they've done
very well with that mentality or

1122
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,880
that philosophy, right?
So, so then, so after that you

1123
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:05,040
went back on tour or?
Yeah, most a lot of it was doing

1124
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,040
corporate and and staying with
the corporate.

1125
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,680
We we still stayed in the the
corporate and trade show

1126
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,400
industry.
We just didn't do the production

1127
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,920
end of it.
We didn't want to do the

1128
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,600
logistics, we didn't want to do
the storage.

1129
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,480
We were pretty much design and
go and that was some of the

1130
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,640
stuff that we were really lucky
to work on.

1131
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,080
It was pretty picture conceptual
design, do with what you want,

1132
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,160
just, you know, seek a, you
know, structural engineer and

1133
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:32,920
make sure that the design is
going to work.

1134
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,200
And that was above, you know,
our pay grade to engineer it.

1135
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:43,400
So we just kind of fell into
that design only and I guess it

1136
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:48,600
was right around 2003, 2004
where I went ballistic on

1137
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,360
Vectorworks.
I just found a passion for that

1138
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:55,480
side of it and I really liked
the design side of it and maybe

1139
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,080
helping out, getting it started,
but not staying on for the

1140
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:03,360
duration of the production.
And a lot of the exhibit stuff,

1141
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,920
it was a lot of it was bid and I
kind of did a business model

1142
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,680
that was we're not going to do
the production.

1143
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,560
So it's a billable time for the
design side.

1144
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,760
So if they said no, we still got
something out of it, which was a

1145
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:19,720
good decision for us.
Yeah, yeah.

1146
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,560
That makes a lot of sense.
You're not just investing time

1147
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:27,400
into you know an empty well.
But it was something very early

1148
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:32,920
on, I believe it was in around
1986 and a funny gear story.

1149
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:37,880
We had a Commodore 128, not the
64.

1150
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:44,280
This was the extra powerful 128.
But Michael Tate had a theory on

1151
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,520
early gear of don't use anything
on the show.

1152
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:52,400
You can't buy at Walmart at 4:30
in the afternoon on a Sunday

1153
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,400
afternoon and because of that,
his color controller.

1154
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,920
This was back when he was still
doing lighting and his color

1155
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,560
controller was based on a
Commodore 64.

1156
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,600
And yeah, it was pretty early
technology, but it worked.

1157
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:09,160
And I had that computer sitting
out of the front of house in one

1158
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:13,560
of the local hands we would do
on an overnight and he came in

1159
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:16,400
the next day and he says, hey, I
noticed you had a Commodore and

1160
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,440
I have this disk.
I'm not sure what it is, some

1161
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:23,160
kind of draft, some computer
drawing software of some kind,

1162
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,840
He says I don't have a computer
and I have no use for it.

1163
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,360
If you want it, you can have it.
And I I don't even remember the

1164
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:33,800
name of the software.
I wish I did, but it was a very

1165
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:38,600
simple drawing program and all
of a sudden my eyes opened up to

1166
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:42,000
how much time was being spent on
a day off while all my buddies

1167
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,440
were hanging out down at the bar
and having a good time on a day

1168
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,160
off.
I'm up on a hotel bed drawing

1169
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:52,360
the park and symbol a couple of
100 times and it was tedious.

1170
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:56,240
And all of a sudden, because of
a Commodore 64 and a very nice

1171
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,240
person that gave me a disk, I
wish I knew who it was and could

1172
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,000
thank them.
If you're out there somewhere

1173
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:04,080
and you remember the story, I
just do.

1174
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,400
But thank you.
But it was a changing moment

1175
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:11,960
where there was in you know,
about that time about 8586 where

1176
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,880
digital communication was just
starting, where, you know,

1177
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,800
people were starting to use the
computer to design and to start

1178
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,360
looking at how to package a show
spreadsheets for the production

1179
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,840
team.
So that was a big innovation to

1180
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:27,800
our industry.
It's funny that you say that

1181
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,840
because I think a lot of people
who listen are younger and

1182
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,120
they're they are like, what do
you mean, laying on the bed,

1183
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,600
drawing, you know, park and
symbols or whatever.

1184
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:43,880
But I remember that I think it
was my company, we we were

1185
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:47,440
giving away swag or maybe
somebody else was where it was a

1186
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:52,320
a template of symbols, a symbol
template for everything from

1187
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:55,440
park hands to whatever, like
anything that would hang on a

1188
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,040
rig basically.
And it was such a successful

1189
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,280
piece of swag, like it was
almost like selling on the black

1190
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,320
market at the bar later that
night and stuff, you know, cuz

1191
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,800
everybody wanted it.
And when you think back to that

1192
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,480
now, like how popular this
template was just because it

1193
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:16,240
made drawing park hands easier
or whatever, right, It's

1194
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,160
shocking because you know again,
who would think to hand Draw

1195
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:22,960
Something today?
I still have.

1196
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,399
I just moved into a new place so
they're not on the wall right

1197
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:29,160
now, but I have my templates are
framed.

1198
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,200
Oh really?
Picture frame and hang on the

1199
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,960
wall right next to me.
So this is not a day I don't

1200
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,120
look at them and remember what
it took to do that.

1201
01:08:37,319 --> 01:08:39,880
You know the same thing of
hanging park hands one at a

1202
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,439
time, one at a time, 1 cable,
one lamp, one cable.

1203
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,920
And you know, we forget about
that of just how easy it is now

1204
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,439
when we.
But then again, these shows were

1205
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,439
just supporting an album.
They weren't the money maker.

1206
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:59,240
So these spectacle shows we have
now with you know, 3740 trucks,

1207
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,279
whatever the case may be, that's
where the industry is gone,

1208
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:05,040
where that's where the money is
being made.

1209
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:09,760
So what we used to put out there
was a cost to the artist to

1210
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,279
support the album.
Yeah, and now it's the money

1211
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:13,920
driving.
Of course, yeah.

1212
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:16,479
Well, and it's big money.
I mean somebody.

1213
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,399
One of my friends on Facebook
and I forget which band it was.

1214
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:21,200
It's a country artist who's
playing.

1215
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:25,920
Oh, it's Stapleton, Chris
Stapleton, somebody posted

1216
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,600
online.
Hey, I have two tickets for sale

1217
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:30,840
tonight.
We can't go or tomorrow night or

1218
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:35,000
whenever it is.
We can't go selling them at face

1219
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,640
value $490.00 each.
I'm like, what, Chris Stapleton?

1220
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,359
I mean, he's a great country
artist, don't get me wrong.

1221
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:48,080
But, you know, 490 bucks.
So it's $1000 plus probably 100

1222
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:50,640
bucks to park, plus $100 for a
few beers.

1223
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,760
I mean Jesus.
You know, I look at that.

1224
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,080
I think when that first show I
ever saw, Elton John, I think it

1225
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,520
was 25350 and 4:50 for a ticket.
Yeah.

1226
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,360
And when it went up to when it
went up a dollar, it's like,

1227
01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:07,440
hold on a second here.
Things are getting out of hand.

1228
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:09,360
Yeah.
When they went up, you know, and

1229
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:10,960
that's.
Wait a minute, that's our beer

1230
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:12,200
money for the show.
Yeah.

1231
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:16,440
And we look at the price of the
ticket and the memorable shows

1232
01:10:16,440 --> 01:10:18,560
that we saw there.
OK, they might have only been

1233
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,120
three or four trucks, but some
of the most memorable shows I

1234
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:27,560
ever, you know, saw, saw were
just that, you know, were the

1235
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:31,440
first time I saw Queen and
looked up at the spectacle there

1236
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:34,440
and saw, you know, what a
performance it was.

1237
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,240
Now granted, we didn't, you
know, we didn't need, you know,

1238
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:42,600
a mountain of LED effects behind
the artist, which I think kind

1239
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,640
of takes away from it sometimes.
And that's how old school I am.

1240
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,880
I don't.
I don't look at most designs as

1241
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,760
being all about the artists and
there's only a few out there

1242
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:54,560
that keep the artists in that
scale.

1243
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,560
There are a few artists out
there that really take notice

1244
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:01,520
and I think that's the the good
designers now don't overpower

1245
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,160
with that lighting.
You know spectacle behind the

1246
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:10,760
band and that little dwarf of a
of an image of the artist in the

1247
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,080
bottom of the picture and it's
and half the time now it's a

1248
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,280
silhouette where you can't even
see the emotion on on.

1249
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,640
You know, I've I've over, I've
overused this a lot of times but

1250
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,280
I had Mark Brickman on the
podcast and you probably know

1251
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,240
him I guess very well, cuz he
was a Northeasterner guy too.

1252
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:33,240
But he, he said, yeah, I saw the
Stones last week and he said,

1253
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:35,120
you know, it it kind of bothered
me.

1254
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:38,200
And this was the, I don't know
if it was the last tour or two

1255
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,520
tours ago, but it was when they
had like the four, I think it

1256
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,200
was four or five iPhone video
screens basically.

1257
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:50,520
And he said, you know, it's a
beautiful design, but I didn't

1258
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:51,920
like it.
And I said really, why?

1259
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:56,840
And he said because those
massive video screens made Mick

1260
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:01,400
Jagger look small on stage.
When you look at the stage, he

1261
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,600
looked like a little bug, you
know, and he can't make Mick

1262
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,840
Jagger disappear.
Yeah, you know.

1263
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:13,720
And so, you know, versus like I
I looked at some video the other

1264
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:19,120
day of the Stones playing at
Jazz Fest in New Orleans and you

1265
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,080
know, it wasn't a massive
production.

1266
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:25,160
It was sort of on the Jazz Fest
stage and it was amazing.

1267
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,400
Like the Stones sounded and
looked great.

1268
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:30,000
Mick Jagger dancing around at 80
years old.

1269
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:34,480
It was really, really great, you
know, And so back to Mark

1270
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:38,120
Brickman, he said one of the
designs that he loved that he

1271
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:41,800
did the most and I'm expecting
to hear Pink Floyd Division Bell

1272
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,800
tour or something.
He said it was Neil Young at

1273
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:49,680
Coachella and I said really
what, what was the rig?

1274
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:56,880
And he said 16 follow spots.
That's it, 16 follow spots.

1275
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,000
But there was something in, you
know, if you did not have a good

1276
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:05,080
rapport with your follow spots
every night and it it it, it

1277
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,320
made a break.
You know, it just, it was such a

1278
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:11,480
deciding factor on your show of,
you know, just how much those

1279
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:14,360
people were into your show.
And it might have been, you

1280
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:18,600
know, eight people that were two
days from retirement and didn't

1281
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,320
care about your show and they
just did six other shows that

1282
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:25,520
week and they really don't care.
But to, you know, to just get

1283
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,000
them into that, hey, we got a
job to do here.

1284
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,600
We're all professionals and you
know, you know, please, you

1285
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,000
know, help me out here and and
get a good rapport with those

1286
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,560
people.
That was your show and if your

1287
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:40,800
rig ever went down, you still
had a show and.

1288
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,440
I remember.
Seeing that, I forget what show

1289
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:44,520
it was.
There was someone in the

1290
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:49,000
stadium.
I believe it was Bon Jovi and

1291
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:55,760
they had a very, very large show
and somehow they lost their the

1292
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,200
the lighting rig went down and
all they had was 6 follow spots

1293
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:05,280
out front of house and all of a
sudden you know and and and

1294
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:08,840
don't quote me on that because I
I'm not positive it was Bon Jovi

1295
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:14,560
but I believe it was in it was
in in a flood as I remember

1296
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:19,000
there was a water situation
because of a heavy downpour and

1297
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,280
something happened that the
lighting rig was down.

1298
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:26,560
This was in Boston.
Was yeah Gillette Stadium or

1299
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:30,240
what was Foxborough Stadium
prior to one of those two.

1300
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:38,160
And I remember seeing it where
nothing but follow spots and it

1301
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,480
was a desperate situation
because of the massive amount of

1302
01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:44,720
light that was was around the
stage and suddenly their eyes

1303
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:48,400
had adjusted to that and when
that was gone it made the

1304
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:52,560
problem even worse.
So I learned that from taking a

1305
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,840
very brief stint as a board up
for Phantom of the Opera for a

1306
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:00,880
fill in of how dark that show
was and how few fixtures they

1307
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,520
used on it.
And once your eyes adjusted to

1308
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,760
that light level, it didn't take
much to make your retinas go

1309
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,720
wow.
And that was you know.

1310
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:13,960
But when your eye is used to
that mountain of of gear, every

1311
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:19,160
moment is so heavily illuminated
that to try to get an intimate

1312
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,240
moment with one or two fixtures
is almost impossible.

1313
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:25,160
Yeah, it's hard to see nuance
when everything's on at full

1314
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:29,800
blast and you've got like JDC 1
strobes blasting in the face and

1315
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,000
all of that stuff.
You know what I like?

1316
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:40,200
I like a little bit of, I don't
know, just I like simpler stuff

1317
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:44,600
for the most part, like LED
Screens, Gone Mad has has for

1318
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,120
me.
It's just changed what shows

1319
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,280
look like.
I just don't like it as much.

1320
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:51,360
I agree.
I go to see a band, to see the

1321
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:55,200
band, you know, which is weird
because I'm a production, you

1322
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,000
know, I've been in this industry
for over 30 years.

1323
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,880
But when I want to see a band, I
want to see the band.

1324
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,440
I want to hear what they sound
like, and I want to see them.

1325
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,680
I'm not necessarily there for
the spectacle, however, and I've

1326
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,560
been reminded I'm also not the
consumer, right?

1327
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:12,200
I'm not the person they're
targeting.

1328
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,440
The person they're targeting is
looking for that crazy wild

1329
01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:17,960
light show.
And trust me, I I like those.

1330
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:20,680
They're very nice and stuff.
It's just like if I was gonna

1331
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,400
see Led Zeppelin, if they were
gonna get back together.

1332
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:26,960
And it's the one, it's my one
sort of show that I never saw.

1333
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:31,000
That really bugs me cuz I grew
up as a huge fan of Led Zeppelin

1334
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:32,760
and stuff and it just never
worked out.

1335
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:37,400
But you never think that your
favorite artists are gonna die

1336
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,440
off and be gone forever, right?
Like you just don't think of

1337
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:44,720
that back then anyways.
And but I wouldn't wanna see

1338
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:49,120
them in a stadium with 1000 or
1500 moving lights.

1339
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,120
I'd rather see them, you know,
in a.

1340
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:53,160
An old park can rig like, you
know an old.

1341
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:57,280
Park can rig in a theater with
with, you know, a dozen moving

1342
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,960
lights and a bunch of follow
spots and some park cans.

1343
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:03,080
Like I'd love to see them, you
know, the way they were, not the

1344
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:05,560
way they would be today or
whatever.

1345
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,200
So that just makes me old.
Probably, hey.

1346
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,600
Kids, a lot of fun, a lot of
people, you know, because of the

1347
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:16,120
nature of the sales that the
shows obviously have to be

1348
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,520
bigger to make that that sale of
course, and of those numbers and

1349
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:23,480
to make the toll work.
But when the crowd is looking

1350
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:28,200
away from the artist, 90% of the
show, it's bad enough that

1351
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,520
they're on the phone for a good
portion of this show and missing

1352
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:35,240
that moment because there's so
many professional videos very

1353
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,040
show out there.
There's really no reason to be

1354
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,480
taking any video.
Enjoy the moment.

1355
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:42,680
You'll never get it back.
But all the things that are

1356
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,320
making you look up and away from
the artist, the one that you

1357
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:49,680
just paid $400 to see.
You're looking at swirling

1358
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,120
patterns on LED fixtures and
you're looking at where turning

1359
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,440
around, looking at where the
lasers are hitting and it's just

1360
01:17:56,440 --> 01:17:58,920
like, yeah, cool, but you're not
going to remember that as

1361
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:03,600
opposed to the emotion on the
keyboard players face as they

1362
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,040
were struggling with the hardest
part of the song.

1363
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:11,280
And you know some of the some of
the heroes now are of artists

1364
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,000
that I didn't really pay
attention to because they

1365
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,320
weren't my type of music.
But you look at anything that

1366
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:20,680
Jeff Rabbits does, you're never
looking away from Mr.

1367
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:24,000
Springsteen on that show.
He is why you're there.

1368
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,000
He is the emotion of the show
and it doesn't all just fall

1369
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,840
back to well, look at if you
want to see the detail, look at

1370
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,920
the video screen and it's just
such a nice way to do that

1371
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,560
sooner.
Ray Creative is one of the best

1372
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:43,680
designers I think in in modern
design of how the artist still

1373
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:48,160
stays in focus to the big
picture and she just, she just

1374
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:50,640
such phenomenal work.
And there's a lot of other

1375
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:55,560
artists there that just know how
to keep that balance of where

1376
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,960
the artist is and where the
audience is looking.

1377
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:03,200
And it's like there's nothing up
there 60 that you can't see on

1378
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:06,000
YouTube.
Yeah, that's 60 feet in the air.

1379
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,400
How annoying is it when you're
sitting at front of house and

1380
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,840
all you see is freaking cell
phone screens all the way up to

1381
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:16,440
the stage?
Well, it's it's, I guess, what

1382
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:18,680
people want to do.
And we're certainly not going to

1383
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:23,120
change that habit anytime soon.
But I just look at it like

1384
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:27,400
you'll never relive that moment
and what it's like to be, you

1385
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:29,960
know, a screaming crowd all at
the same moment.

1386
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:33,480
And so many people have to look
up for their phone to see what

1387
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:35,120
everybody would just went wow
AT.

1388
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,840
And they they miss that that
pop, that one moment of

1389
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:41,440
excitement.
Yeah, well, I mean, do you have

1390
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,600
kids?
They're probably Oh, yeah.

1391
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:48,040
Yeah, well, you know, it's when
you look at your kids like I

1392
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:51,840
constantly for 10 years, I've
told my son that is, is you're

1393
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:54,440
missing so much.
You know, because you're sitting

1394
01:19:54,440 --> 01:19:56,000
looking down at your phone all
the time.

1395
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,640
You're missing so much.
And I miss a lot because I look

1396
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:02,080
at my phone a lot, but not near
as much as the average, you

1397
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,600
know, now 20 year old, but you
know.

1398
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:10,400
This times when I have literally
because oops sorry, because of

1399
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:13,600
the job I have 12.
At one point I had 12 monitors

1400
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:17,480
surrounding me between all the
visualizers and the console and

1401
01:20:17,480 --> 01:20:21,480
all and and then I think the
like the hardest part of my job

1402
01:20:21,480 --> 01:20:24,920
was which keyboard was which
screen, you know?

1403
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:29,680
And when I go on vacation, I
purposely take my cell phone and

1404
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:31,560
I put it in the safe and I don't
take it out.

1405
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,880
And just to be away from tech
for 12 days, 12 days straight

1406
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,360
and it's like, I'm sorry.
There was a time when I used to

1407
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:43,840
live without this, and to get
that back is actually quite

1408
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,560
pleasant.
Amazing You can do that.

1409
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,920
Yeah, I can.
The trick is, don't bring your

1410
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:52,040
charger.
Well, but the problem is I have.

1411
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:54,840
An online business that I do
need to stay.

1412
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:56,320
Attached to you know what I
mean.

1413
01:20:56,440 --> 01:20:59,440
So.
Yeah, I mean, if I if I lock my

1414
01:20:59,440 --> 01:21:03,080
cell phone up in the in the safe
for 12 days, I think I'd

1415
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:05,080
probably I'd come.
Back to.

1416
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:08,800
A bunch of dead people and and
no customers, so you know it

1417
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,200
wouldn't be good.
You know, we were speaking to,

1418
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:12,880
we were speaking to headphones
earlier.

1419
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:17,600
You know, one of the biggest,
the, the biggest innovations in

1420
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,520
this industry over the years was
a comfortable headset.

1421
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:25,800
If if anybody remembers the old
blue Clearcom headsets and what

1422
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:30,840
it was like to sit through bad
enough a 2 hour show, but to sit

1423
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,000
through a rehearsal day with
those on it.

1424
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:37,240
You came home with your head
just aching from those and now

1425
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,760
you look at it, they're feather
lights, so comfortable.

1426
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:42,440
But that was one of the the the
ultimate when I was thinking

1427
01:21:42,440 --> 01:21:45,040
about you know what was some of
the, you know, your favorite

1428
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:47,880
gear over the years.
And I was trying to think about

1429
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,400
it and it's like well some of my
favorite gear was not anything

1430
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:53,200
to do with technology and
lighting.

1431
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:55,560
It was about comfort.
Yeah, it usually isn't.

1432
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,680
It's it's a chair, a front of
House chair, you know?

1433
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:01,880
Or or like, it's always things
like that.

1434
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:04,920
That's what people always say.
You might have sold one of

1435
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:06,480
these.
I've seen them on on eBay but

1436
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:08,880
I'm not sure if people actually
are joking or not.

1437
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:13,720
But the old AVO consoles, before
the QM 500, it was the same size

1438
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:18,360
as the QM500.
I believe it was the 8800 and it

1439
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,440
had a little pin matrix in the
drawers.

1440
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:24,360
I don't remember and everybody
said, well there was a fight

1441
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:25,840
over it.
If someone tried to push

1442
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:29,120
anything else but an AVO it
turned into an argument between

1443
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:32,200
the promoter.
It was like, no AVO, that's it.

1444
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,280
And you know, people would have
to jump through hoops, but if

1445
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:37,880
your artist was good enough, you
could hold to that.

1446
01:22:38,480 --> 01:22:41,600
But they would always try to
start pushing other consoles on

1447
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:43,160
it.
And there was nothing wrong with

1448
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:45,200
these other consoles, but it
wasn't an AVO.

1449
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:48,640
And why did we like the Avos so
much over a Selco?

1450
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:52,040
Because the case was long enough
to sleep in under the stage.

1451
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:54,360
That's hilarious.
Literally.

1452
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:57,360
That literally was was.
One of the reasons we all loved

1453
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,080
Avos is that you can get a quick
nap under the deck.

1454
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:02,120
That's if you.
Didn't have the bus If you

1455
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,800
didn't have the buses, if you
didn't have the buses there,

1456
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:10,960
Unable case made a great cut.
We I had Steve Warren from AVO

1457
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:15,000
on last week.
It actually just came out today

1458
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,040
or yesterday.
I think it came out and that was

1459
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:21,120
a fun conversation.
He's living in Portugal now

1460
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:23,840
because Robin just bought the
company.

1461
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:24,880
I'm sure he knew this.
Yeah.

1462
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:27,200
Yeah, one of our partners.
Yeah, so.

1463
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,680
One of the funniest things about
AVO, and it was, I don't think

1464
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:36,400
it was very well known, was that
it nobody had redundancy back

1465
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:39,080
then.
There was no secondary console,

1466
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:43,120
There was no backups.
There was literally 1 console

1467
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,880
and that was it.
And if it went down at 7:25, you

1468
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:49,120
found yourself having to play
microprocessor technician, which

1469
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:52,760
not a lot of us had that
training and a lot of times I

1470
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:56,000
remember one time at Madison
Square Garden at a radio station

1471
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:01,120
show at after everybody had put
in their looks on a Selco, it

1472
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:08,480
was a brand new console and the
Molex on one of the boards had

1473
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:10,520
wasn't seated correctly and
popped out.

1474
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:16,600
And then of course 725 full
crowd got 5 minutes and consoles

1475
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:20,000
down.
And I wasn't very knowledgeable

1476
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,840
about those kind of things at
the time.

1477
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:25,360
And you find yourself, you
popped it open, you you trace

1478
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:30,560
that problem and you looked at
it and pop that back in and the

1479
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:35,320
shit came back on.
And my heartbeat just was it it?

1480
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:39,000
I was, I was freaking out.
But somehow, someway, we fixed

1481
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,560
it.
But the thing about AVO was this

1482
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:43,680
was this gentleman by the name
of Rob Steele.

1483
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:47,200
And I remember calling him from
a pay phone in the lobby, and

1484
01:24:47,480 --> 01:24:51,480
Rob was always picked up.
That phone didn't care what time

1485
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:54,160
it was.
And I remember one time on a

1486
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:58,360
console down and unfortunately
it was the opening act.

1487
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:00,640
It was in the dark as I remember
on this show.

1488
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:05,720
But until I got it fixed, there
was no backup and there was a

1489
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:10,120
little secondary connector that
there was redundancy in the

1490
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:12,160
processing boards in that
console.

1491
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,120
So you actually had a back, you
know, somewhat of a backup

1492
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:21,960
console for some of the cards.
And I believe it was A to D

1493
01:25:22,440 --> 01:25:27,160
converter that had gone down.
And sure enough, he walked me

1494
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:30,600
through it.
And thank God, yeah.

1495
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:32,480
You know it's.
Funny because got me through it.

1496
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:37,240
Steve on the podcast we did
talked about a situation he had,

1497
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:44,840
I think it was Paul Simon where
the console wasn't working or

1498
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:49,520
whatever and he, you know,
whipped out a soldering iron and

1499
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:52,440
and opened up the board and was
able to fix it.

1500
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,960
And something happened.
I can't remember the whole

1501
01:25:55,960 --> 01:26:00,040
story, but like during the show
or after the show or something,

1502
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:03,800
somebody was like, you know, the
venue smells like it's on fire,

1503
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,280
you know?
And everyone was freaking out

1504
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:09,480
because there was a fire and and
he came to figure out that he

1505
01:26:09,480 --> 01:26:15,640
had left his soldering iron on
and it was burning something

1506
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:19,240
plastic or something.
I can't remember exactly but he

1507
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:22,280
was quite embarrassed and and
you know, all eyes were on Steve

1508
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:25,120
Warren at that point and he
tells the story a hell of a lot

1509
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:28,320
better than I do because I don't
remember all the facts but but

1510
01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:30,800
it was kind of funny.
He he said that was one of his

1511
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,520
biggest goofs.
So I want to get into what

1512
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:38,160
you're doing now because I know
you've been with Vectorworks.

1513
01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:41,280
So first of all, how cool is
that that you were talking about

1514
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:44,800
like you were designing stuff
using Vectorworks back in the

1515
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:50,240
early 2000s I think, right?
Yeah, all the way back to 98.

1516
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:53,400
I think I bought my first copy
in 98.

1517
01:26:54,640 --> 01:27:04,680
And by about 2003, 2004 a good,
very good friend was working at

1518
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:08,960
the company and is still with
the company and is one of our

1519
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:14,280
Vice Presidents or our of our
offices I should say, brought me

1520
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:18,160
into a Macworld show.
Actually, I walked into a

1521
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:21,360
Macworld show with my laptop and
walked up to the purse and I

1522
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:23,440
said, you know what?
I've been trying to use this and

1523
01:27:23,440 --> 01:27:27,080
trying to get better at it.
And I said could you take a look

1524
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:29,960
at and and give me some, you
know, honest critique on how I

1525
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,600
could get better.
And any, any any comments would

1526
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,920
be appreciated.
And I walked in and this

1527
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:38,600
gentleman said, wow, that's
pretty good stuff.

1528
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,160
Would you mind leaving your
laptop here so we can run this

1529
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,800
on the screen?
And I said, well, I got to kind

1530
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:47,360
of keep my laptop.
And he says, well, you know,

1531
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:50,880
reach out because we could, you
know, we could use images like

1532
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,440
that.
And I reached out and this

1533
01:27:54,440 --> 01:28:00,480
gentleman had asked me from the
marketing department if I would

1534
01:28:00,480 --> 01:28:05,160
come out and speak to.
I think it was LDI or it might

1535
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:07,000
have been Macworld was one of
the first ones.

1536
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:10,640
But I came out there and you
know, I been around the stage

1537
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,760
for a long time, under the
stage, over the stage, under it,

1538
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:17,320
on the stage when the house
wasn't in, but never on the

1539
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:20,560
stage, you know, So quite
uncomfortable there.

1540
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:25,640
And I was kind of nervous to get
up on that podium and talk about

1541
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,960
how I was using Vectworks.
And they had kind of asked me

1542
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,680
when I came in, you know, they
wanted a little bit of name

1543
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:33,760
drop, you know, not name
dropping, but just, you know,

1544
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:36,160
who have you worked for?
And it obviously helps

1545
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:38,240
marketing.
And I was kind of a little

1546
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:39,640
hesitant.
It's like, well, that's not

1547
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:41,400
really what I'm about.
I don't really, you know,

1548
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:43,480
they're just a bunch of people I
work for.

1549
01:28:43,480 --> 01:28:47,880
It's not really, you know, me.
And I said how about I just get

1550
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:51,440
into the software?
So they said, well, please wrote

1551
01:28:51,440 --> 01:28:55,000
up about two paragraphs of who I
am and what I did.

1552
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:57,680
And I got up there for about 30
seconds.

1553
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:01,840
My hands was just sweating.
You know, just I I'm so nervous

1554
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:04,760
to get up there and there wasn't
a whole lot of people out there

1555
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:07,320
to start.
And about two minutes into it, I

1556
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,440
said enough of that, let's draw.
And I jumped up and I just

1557
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:14,840
started doing what I felt very
natural using the software and I

1558
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:16,840
was using it in kind of a
different way.

1559
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:21,000
And within a few minutes I had
the aisles clogged of people

1560
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:22,600
looking at just how I was using
it.

1561
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,840
So I felt very comfortable and I
I found a nice little knack of

1562
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,800
being able to get up and
demonstrate software, which

1563
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:32,880
isn't the easiest thing to do,
especially if it crashes, which

1564
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,680
it doesn't do very often.
But Murphy's Law will say it

1565
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,240
won't crash in six months, but
the as soon as you get up in

1566
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:40,240
front of a crowd.
Exactly.

1567
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:43,720
And I just, I had a passion for
going out there and getting

1568
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,680
people excited about it.
And I just, I love the product

1569
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:48,560
and it's a great company to work
for.

1570
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:52,920
I work with, you know, just such
an amazing team of engineers

1571
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,200
that I'm constantly learning on
something that I always had

1572
01:29:56,200 --> 01:29:59,560
interested in, you know, and of
how software works.

1573
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:02,920
But I'll never get into engine,
you know, coding and all that as

1574
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:07,880
opposed to just how do you get a
feature, you know, what does it

1575
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,720
take to to bring a product to
life in software world.

1576
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:14,080
And that was so much different
than what I'd ever done in the

1577
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,240
road world or you know, in the
production world.

1578
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,080
And it's a challenge for me now
and and I get to think, you

1579
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:22,680
know, every day and I get to do
something that's completely

1580
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,440
different and I don't have to go
out there and get chain grease

1581
01:30:26,440 --> 01:30:29,080
all over myself or schlep for
rot.

1582
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:32,120
And I still like going out and
doing that every once in a while

1583
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:34,560
just to remember you know what
it was.

1584
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:36,680
But.
But I mean it, it had to be cool

1585
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:40,680
though like you know being a
user of the product for for I

1586
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:43,680
guess about 20 years or
something and then suddenly you

1587
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:46,960
know the company says hey why
don't you come work for us or I

1588
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:53,120
however that happened but so
your role there you're you're on

1589
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:56,200
like a support kind of side I
think or.

1590
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:58,440
I'm actually, I'm with the
product marketing team.

1591
01:30:58,440 --> 01:31:02,640
So we go trade shows and we
listen to users.

1592
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:05,400
We see you know what people are
doing with it.

1593
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:09,560
We look for always looking for
grade imagery, always looking

1594
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,560
for people that are using it in
a creative way.

1595
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:15,200
If anybody has anything they'd
like to to showcase, so please

1596
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:17,800
reach out to me.
I'm very easy to find on the

1597
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:21,400
Vector work site.
We always are looking for ways

1598
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:25,960
to, you know to to help the the
young designers in in the old

1599
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,440
designers as well.
People that just want to learn a

1600
01:31:28,440 --> 01:31:30,520
new skill.
So I love doing that.

1601
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,120
There's so many of the people
out there that I still stay in

1602
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:37,120
touch with that helped me years
and years ago and I'll hear from

1603
01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:38,760
every once in a while.
It's two in the morning.

1604
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:41,760
Hell, like I got a drawing.
I can't figure this out.

1605
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:43,720
I got something that's going to
be in there at 8:00 in the

1606
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:45,200
morning.
I'm up all night.

1607
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:48,880
I'll get calls at 2:00 in the
morning saying dude, I'm really,

1608
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:51,480
really in trouble here, you
know, and then I'll help them up

1609
01:31:51,480 --> 01:31:53,880
because they helped me at 1:00
or even if they didn't help me,

1610
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:58,360
I still like helping, but I
love, I love seeing that part of

1611
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:02,720
the the visual technology, being
able to be pre vised and not

1612
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:04,840
just because I work for vector
works.

1613
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:08,520
I always had an interest in that
pre vis side of get things right

1614
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:11,920
before you ever walk into the
venue and solve all your

1615
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:14,560
problems in a digital world.
And you look real good when you

1616
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:18,400
get out to the real world.
And I just love to see that

1617
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:21,840
technology coming forward.
You know, we saw it in our head.

1618
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,520
There's a lot of people out
there that still they don't

1619
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,120
have, they don't need previous,
they don't need a design, they

1620
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:29,400
don't need to put it, you know,
on paper.

1621
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:32,240
They'll just tell somebody, hey,
this is I want this thing bathed

1622
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:34,160
in a nice blue.
You figure out where the

1623
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:37,800
fixtures go, you figure out the
patch, all that kind of stuff,

1624
01:32:38,240 --> 01:32:41,120
and they just know what they
want to see in their mind.

1625
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:44,640
I like, I know what I see in my
mind now.

1626
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:49,080
I want to put it onto a screen.
So in in an animation now and

1627
01:32:49,480 --> 01:32:53,680
you know and now with you know
we were talking briefly earlier

1628
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:55,560
about AI.
And I want.

1629
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:57,440
To have such a fueling things.
Yeah.

1630
01:32:57,440 --> 01:33:00,640
When whatever a good time for
that is, well, we.

1631
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:03,760
We can go into it now.
I mean, you know, you guys I

1632
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:06,840
think are going to be on the
cutting edge of AI as it relates

1633
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,480
to our industry.
But you know, I recently tripped

1634
01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:13,440
over one of your users and I
won't tell you who it is yet,

1635
01:33:13,440 --> 01:33:15,400
but you may have even seen the
image already.

1636
01:33:16,440 --> 01:33:20,320
So I had a conversation with
this gentleman a couple of

1637
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:24,480
weeks, no, probably about a
month ago, 3 weeks ago about AI.

1638
01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:27,600
And I just said, have you done
any testing on any of this

1639
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:28,880
stuff?
He goes, no, not really.

1640
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:31,920
And I said, well, what about
even just image generation, you

1641
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:36,440
know, I know there's a lot of
content being created on the

1642
01:33:36,440 --> 01:33:39,240
spot at shows and then pushed
out to the screens and stuff.

1643
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:40,760
Have you got.
No, no, not really.

1644
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:44,280
And I said, man, you got to take
a look at this.

1645
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:47,600
And I showed him a couple things
that I had just created using

1646
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:49,880
AI.
And he was like, whoa, So he

1647
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:52,080
comes to me the next day and he
goes, thanks a lot.

1648
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:54,760
And I said, what?
And he said, you know, I've gone

1649
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:58,000
down a rabbit hole on
Vectorworks AI.

1650
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:02,200
And the good news is I've become
an expert at it.

1651
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:06,920
The bad news is I've been
completely non productive, like

1652
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:11,000
I'm doing no work and and I'm
just down this crazy rabbit

1653
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:13,560
hole.
So here I'm going to share on

1654
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:17,520
the screen here with you one of
the images that he created.

1655
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:21,520
He created a bunch of them and
this was one of them, which is

1656
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:25,320
his his dog and this gentleman
is a bit of a gun guy.

1657
01:34:25,320 --> 01:34:31,280
So you know, obviously the dog
is heavily armed and so do you

1658
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:34,440
know who this is?
Can you guess?

1659
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:37,160
Is the character the dog?
No.

1660
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:39,160
No, I'm saying who would have
generated this image?

1661
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:40,320
Oh, who?
Yeah.

1662
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:43,600
Patrick.
Dearson.

1663
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:45,840
Yeah.
No, I'm not familiar.

1664
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:46,920
You're.
Not familiar with Patrick

1665
01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:47,920
Deerson?
Oh.

1666
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,520
No, but if not, if Patricks out
there, I'd please introduce

1667
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,680
yourself on our site.
I'd love to meet you so.

1668
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:57,560
This is this is something that
Patrick created apparently on

1669
01:34:57,560 --> 01:34:59,920
Vectorworks AI.
Comical.

1670
01:34:59,920 --> 01:35:02,320
Nothing to do with lighting
whatsoever.

1671
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:07,560
You know his dog on a shark with
a bunch of weapons and.

1672
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:11,480
I thought when you first asset
as I know there was a a pug that

1673
01:35:11,480 --> 01:35:15,560
was out there as a character in
a in a in a famous movie.

1674
01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:21,960
But I I'll tell you I was a
little hesitant because when I

1675
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:24,960
first you know we all remember
when the Internet first came

1676
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:27,240
out.
Well not all of us remember but

1677
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:31,000
for the people that do remember
when the Internet came out we

1678
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:32,280
all took it with a grain of
salt.

1679
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:36,880
We were seeing QuickTime movies
and 20 minutes to to hear you've

1680
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:40,160
got mail.
It wasn't the most fascinating,

1681
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:42,960
you know, It was good technology
and it was going to evolve into

1682
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,120
something cool.
But at the time, all right, a

1683
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:49,760
QuickTime movie was pretty
jittery and it just took 25

1684
01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:51,240
minutes to download.
Yeah.

1685
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:54,200
Well, on that horrific sound
when you're connecting to the

1686
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:54,960
hotel.
Room.

1687
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:59,160
Yes, yes, Yeah, You know.
For for your Internet and you

1688
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,400
could either call your wife or
whatever, or you could get on

1689
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:04,160
the Internet.
You know you couldn't do both at

1690
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,920
the same time.
Yeah, that was just, you know,

1691
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:12,120
we all had reservations about
it, but I don't think anybody

1692
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,520
really saw the true potential,
how it's going to change their

1693
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:18,560
lives now.
AII looked at the kind of the

1694
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:22,040
same way when I first saw it.
We heard about all the negative,

1695
01:36:22,360 --> 01:36:26,120
how people were going to start
using it to do fake political

1696
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:29,960
ads and everything else that
they shouldn't be doing with it.

1697
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:33,560
Well, it was the same way when
you first saw YouTube that you

1698
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:37,800
could either watch kids bounce
down, you know, the stairs off

1699
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:40,880
their skateboard and some
comical moments there.

1700
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:45,880
But you could also look up on,
you know, how you know,

1701
01:36:46,440 --> 01:36:50,360
electronic circuits really work
and what is the function, you

1702
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:53,920
know, how does a capacitor
actually store that energy and

1703
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,880
all those kind of great things?
And, you know, you look on Wiki

1704
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:59,920
and if you're looking up on what
Paris Hilton did last weekend,

1705
01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:01,600
you might get some false
information.

1706
01:37:02,120 --> 01:37:04,960
But if you're looking up
capacitors, you're probably

1707
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:08,200
going to get a pretty factual
and it leads to more learning.

1708
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:13,240
So I think the same way in a way
that AI is going down that road,

1709
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:18,400
that it's can be used very, very
creatively.

1710
01:37:18,440 --> 01:37:23,440
It can be used in creative ways
that aren't so politically

1711
01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:26,760
correct or socially correct, I
might say.

1712
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,200
But at the same time, I looked
at an analogy when I first

1713
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:32,800
started using it, of how many
times that I tried to work with

1714
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:36,640
a client and going in to design
A show.

1715
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:39,800
And it's like, oh, OK you go
into a meeting and you pull out

1716
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:42,960
the ideas and you come up with a
couple of ideas, you know, a

1717
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:47,880
couple of packages for a
proposal and you know, three or

1718
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:51,520
four variations of kind of that
topic and giving them some, some

1719
01:37:51,520 --> 01:37:54,440
some different options.
And you walk in there and

1720
01:37:54,440 --> 01:37:56,920
they're not in the great mood
that they were in when they were

1721
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:59,280
at the meeting.
They had a bad weekend or

1722
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:02,000
something happened.
And you walk in there with, you

1723
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:05,360
know, 4 proposals that you
spent, you know, 810 hours each

1724
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:08,800
on and you walk in.
She she not like that, don't

1725
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:10,800
like that, don't like that.
The third one.

1726
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,480
Yeah, yeah.
But we kind of don't like the

1727
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:15,480
the colors in it.
Oh great.

1728
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:17,360
Oh great.
So now I'm going to go back and

1729
01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:18,800
I'm going to take another swing
at it.

1730
01:38:19,240 --> 01:38:22,440
Well, with AI we build kind of
a, here's the, you know, a

1731
01:38:22,440 --> 01:38:24,360
couple of different structure
setups.

1732
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:27,880
If you know what the venue will
will allow, what the budget or

1733
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:31,080
you know the shipping budget
will allow to get it there.

1734
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:34,720
Or you know the labor hours to
set it up and you try to put

1735
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:37,000
something in that rough white
models.

1736
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,760
And then you run the AI
generator and get 20 different

1737
01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:47,040
looks in 20 minutes and all by
some some simple prompts, text

1738
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:48,840
prompts, both positive and
negative.

1739
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:51,680
So it's like, I don't want it to
look like a holiday Christmas

1740
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,960
festival, no Reds, no greens,
but I want it to look, you know,

1741
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:58,560
a hazy room, corporate ballroom,
blah blah blah blah blah blah.

1742
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:03,880
And in a matter of 20 minutes,
you've got 20 beautiful ideas.

1743
01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:09,120
And then, oh, well, we like #3,
we like #7, we like #8, and we

1744
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:13,240
like 14.
OK now we'll do full packages on

1745
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:15,800
those.
So you've really honed in that

1746
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:21,840
design idea to save yourself a
lot of aggravation, a lot of

1747
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:25,640
time in this, you know, the the
moral factor of, you know,

1748
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:29,640
people would have done that
creative work well, not in that

1749
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,000
sense.
And you probably wouldn't have

1750
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:35,920
got the job if you didn't have
an arsenal of cool looks to show

1751
01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:37,720
them.
So that's where I see the

1752
01:39:37,720 --> 01:39:42,280
potential of AI is coming up
with conceptual ideas down the

1753
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:44,280
line.
The feature will evolve to where

1754
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:49,200
we can actually say, OK, we'll
put this type of crowd into the

1755
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:51,520
seats in this image, that kind
of stuff.

1756
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:55,200
But you know, it's it's an
evolving technology and like I

1757
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:58,200
said when I first saw it, I just
heard a lot of negative things

1758
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:01,680
about AI, so I didn't jump.
On board as fast as some of my

1759
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:05,480
colleagues at work did, and once
they started using the same

1760
01:40:05,480 --> 01:40:07,880
thing, they were up until 3:00
in the morning coming up with

1761
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:13,080
some great stuff.
And it's to me just amazing what

1762
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:16,600
you can see out there in a
matter of minutes on conceptual

1763
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:18,200
ideas.
I agree completely.

1764
01:40:18,720 --> 01:40:22,480
You know, I again the conspiracy
theory side of it all.

1765
01:40:22,480 --> 01:40:26,240
Is that OK?
So how long until the client

1766
01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:30,920
just goes directly to
Vectorworks and it bypasses the

1767
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:34,240
designer altogether because you
can just put some information

1768
01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:35,320
into Vectorworks.
Boom.

1769
01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:38,320
It spits out a design for you
and.

1770
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:46,600
I can see the concern, but
honestly, they'll never be a

1771
01:40:46,600 --> 01:40:49,400
button in Vectorworks that say
design cool show.

1772
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:53,440
There's always that knowledge of
how things go together.

1773
01:40:53,440 --> 01:40:57,400
There's always that knowledge of
how things get built is how it

1774
01:40:57,400 --> 01:41:01,480
packages, how it ships, how it's
supported.

1775
01:41:02,200 --> 01:41:04,160
There's never going to be
anything.

1776
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:09,200
I I believe that will take the
human thought process out of it

1777
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:12,880
to the point where someone
actually has to think about

1778
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,240
where that's going to break
apart and fit into a set card,

1779
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:20,080
how that's going to package.
And yes, well, AI isn't going to

1780
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:23,720
be able to tell you that when
it, you know, when things go

1781
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:26,840
together that you put, you know,
protection in between.

1782
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,160
So there's all that kind of
thing that I think will be

1783
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:32,600
limited.
Well, yeah, I guess it can, but

1784
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:35,120
they'll always.
Very quickly, you know, this is

1785
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:39,120
the thing there'll.
Always be someone there that has

1786
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:43,400
to realize that, you know,
there's human factors involved

1787
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:46,840
in any production.
So I I think there's, you know,

1788
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:52,680
so much thought that goes into
making a production work, that

1789
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:58,280
logistics and then there's that
you can't tell AI, can't tell a

1790
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:01,960
crew how to get along and
there's always that kind of

1791
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:05,440
thing that makes the work.
Here's the thing that I think

1792
01:42:05,440 --> 01:42:08,880
like, I think from a music
production standpoint, music

1793
01:42:09,320 --> 01:42:14,480
live event standpoint, you're
gonna have more emotion

1794
01:42:14,480 --> 01:42:16,760
involved.
You're gonna have a a lighting

1795
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:21,040
designer who knows the artist
personally, knows how he or she

1796
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:25,720
thinks that the type of mood
that he or she wants to project

1797
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:29,480
or whatever.
And all the nuance that that the

1798
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:33,360
designer can then put into the
show based on that human

1799
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:37,680
interaction with the artist and
and knowledge of the artist,

1800
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:39,440
knowledge of the music and all
that stuff.

1801
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:44,200
But where I think it changes is
when you talk about the business

1802
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:48,480
you spent a lot of time in the
the corporate conventional stuff

1803
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:53,720
or convention stuff to me is a
little more vanilla.

1804
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:57,080
You know, it's a little more,
hey, we need light here, we need

1805
01:42:57,080 --> 01:42:59,080
light here.
This needs to be taken care of

1806
01:42:59,080 --> 01:43:01,960
here.
And where AI can come in too is,

1807
01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:05,440
is all the tedious stuff, you
know, the the, the

1808
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:09,520
infrastructure that needs to
come with that moving light

1809
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:11,400
package.
You know, the the trussing and

1810
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:14,240
cabling and all of those things
that it can put together quite

1811
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:18,960
quickly and easily based on,
again, learning the knowledge

1812
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:21,440
that it creates over doing a
couple of shows.

1813
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:27,080
And so it's interesting, like I
can understand why designers are

1814
01:43:28,360 --> 01:43:32,160
concerned.
But again, you know, people

1815
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:36,680
tried to stop Henry Ford from
shipping cars and, you know,

1816
01:43:36,680 --> 01:43:39,800
said why do we need to get rid
of horses and buggies and stuff,

1817
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:42,360
right?
It's just going to create

1818
01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:45,800
problems and blah, blah, blah.
Well, where would we be today if

1819
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:47,840
we stayed with horse and buggy,
you know?

1820
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:51,160
And so we went to cars, and then
we went to faster cars, and then

1821
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:54,360
we went to bigger cars and
different cars and airplanes and

1822
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:57,160
all sorts of other modes of
transportation.

1823
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,760
And it's progress, you know and
so this is, this is obviously

1824
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:06,800
part of progress and I for one
and we talked about this before

1825
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:09,640
we went on, on the air, I'm
pretty excited.

1826
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:12,840
About it.
No problem, no worries.

1827
01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:14,880
You were talking about your
allergies.

1828
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:19,560
But I I for 1:00 AM AM pretty
excited about the tools that are

1829
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:22,080
becoming available.
And the tools, like with you

1830
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:25,840
guys with Vectorworks, the tools
within the tools, you know, the

1831
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:29,600
the stuff that's being added to
a great product like Vectorworks

1832
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:36,200
to make it more powerful or to
shave time off of the the the

1833
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:40,320
tedious, repetitive work that
you shouldn't have to do anymore

1834
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:41,840
because you've done it 100
times.

1835
01:44:41,840 --> 01:44:45,400
So why can't I just say, hey, do
it like that last one, you know,

1836
01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:48,560
and it goes in and goes, OK, I
know how you did the last one.

1837
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:50,720
I'll go ahead and do that here,
you know.

1838
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:55,880
There's, you know, there's so
much to be achieved, you know,

1839
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,560
in the next couple of years with
Vectorworks, you know, taking

1840
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:00,760
our first round at it and
getting, you know, you know,

1841
01:45:00,760 --> 01:45:04,560
feedback from people using it on
where they want it to go.

1842
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:08,640
So it's really, you know, it's
something that's, you know, just

1843
01:45:08,840 --> 01:45:11,520
opening up a can of, you know,
not opening up a can of worms,

1844
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:14,240
but just really, you know, just
getting started.

1845
01:45:14,360 --> 01:45:16,480
On the front end.
Yeah, yeah.

1846
01:45:16,480 --> 01:45:18,200
Well, I mean the whole that has
comments.

1847
01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:21,360
The whole AI thing is at the
front end, but but it's moving

1848
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:24,480
quickly, you know, and I told
you earlier about some of the

1849
01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:28,480
music stuff that I I've been
messing around with where you

1850
01:45:28,480 --> 01:45:33,080
know, you can create music very,
very easily and very quickly

1851
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:37,600
using some already available
apps out there, music video,

1852
01:45:38,440 --> 01:45:41,160
websites, presentations, all
kinds of things.

1853
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,480
This is all low hanging fruit.
How far is it going to go beyond

1854
01:45:45,480 --> 01:45:48,080
that?
Because if I told you, you know,

1855
01:45:48,080 --> 01:45:50,840
three or four years ago that,
you know, I could put a few

1856
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:54,360
words in and it had spit out a
song on the other end based on

1857
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:57,760
those few words that I just
input, you'd be like, yeah, I

1858
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,960
don't think we got that
technology yet, you know, but we

1859
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,520
do so.
You know, it gives skills to

1860
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:08,200
people that, you know, might not
have the ability to draw by

1861
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:10,800
hand.
Yeah, line artists.

1862
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:16,720
My wife is a very, very talented
artist, you know, trained

1863
01:46:17,080 --> 01:46:22,320
classical artist and she often
would put those things into a

1864
01:46:22,320 --> 01:46:25,640
drawing that I couldn't through
Photoshop or just hand drawing

1865
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:29,640
of plants and people.
And those are the kind of things

1866
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:34,160
that AI is able to put into a
drawing or creative writing is

1867
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:37,680
another one where I don't have
the skills of of creative

1868
01:46:37,680 --> 01:46:40,400
writing at all.
But it it, it definitely helps

1869
01:46:40,400 --> 01:46:44,800
me, you know, in, in that sense
or you know, just to put that,

1870
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:51,040
you know, charcoal sketch
feeling over a drawing and kind

1871
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:54,760
of merge it with the technical
side of it and an artistic

1872
01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:57,200
feeling to it merging those two
together.

1873
01:46:57,200 --> 01:47:01,320
So I think it has some wonderful
potential when it comes to that.

1874
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:06,440
There's also, you know, the the
repetitive tasks which I think

1875
01:47:06,440 --> 01:47:09,440
you know generating paperwork
that's great, a great design.

1876
01:47:09,440 --> 01:47:12,520
OK, Now tell the people in the
shop what has to get in the

1877
01:47:12,520 --> 01:47:14,280
truck and when it has to get in
there.

1878
01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:17,760
And don't forget the trust bolts
when you do that order and it's

1879
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:20,680
those are the kind of simple
things that someone's got to

1880
01:47:20,680 --> 01:47:22,600
think about and take so much
time.

1881
01:47:22,960 --> 01:47:27,800
Well, maybe they come up with a
list and an AI application will

1882
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:32,680
say, don't forget this.
We just reviewed your whole list

1883
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:37,120
and it looks for common
revisions over the years of

1884
01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:41,120
someone using their inventory
software of those things that

1885
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:45,440
were always added at the end of
the order at the last minute.

1886
01:47:45,440 --> 01:47:48,000
Yeah.
Oh yeah, those we forgot the

1887
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,880
extra safeties for the raincoat.
Yeah.

1888
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:53,960
And what were those things that
and it looks out for those and

1889
01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:58,080
does checks against the
inventory versus the count that

1890
01:47:58,080 --> 01:48:01,320
is being requested makes sense.
So that kind of stuff I think

1891
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:03,440
would have a lot of potential.
That's one of the things

1892
01:48:03,440 --> 01:48:07,200
actually Vectorworks is getting
very excited about is helping

1893
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:12,480
generate inventory and keeping
control of rental inventories

1894
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:15,960
through different shops and
comparing it to a drawing.

1895
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,200
What do you need, what do you
have and what do you need?

1896
01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:19,600
Well, this is what do you need
to source.

1897
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,640
This I think is going to become
one of the great opportunities

1898
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:26,080
but also one of the problems
because I think because it's

1899
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:31,560
such a wild, Wild West sort of
arms race right now in in AI,

1900
01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:37,440
you don't wanna over commit to
doing it one way because there's

1901
01:48:37,440 --> 01:48:40,960
gonna be a better way.
So like you know if you guys

1902
01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:45,480
create for example a way to
manage this rental gear sort of

1903
01:48:45,480 --> 01:48:50,640
thing within Vectorworks R2 is
probably going to create a

1904
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:54,000
similar thing on the rental
software side and now you've got

1905
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:57,400
sort of a conflict of of
software products or whatever,

1906
01:48:57,400 --> 01:48:59,800
right?
So there we're gonna see some of

1907
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:02,960
that stuff like I'm already
seeing where I'll commit cuz

1908
01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:06,240
these these companies with these
AI apps, they come out with this

1909
01:49:06,240 --> 01:49:09,200
annual program that's much
cheaper than the monthly one.

1910
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:12,920
So I'll go, OK, instead of
paying $12.00 a month, I'll pay

1911
01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:18,200
$100 for a year and then a month
later somebody comes out with

1912
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:22,520
one that's 10 times better or
it's easier or or one of that

1913
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:24,680
and I'll give you a perfect real
world example.

1914
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:28,920
So we have an an app that takes
our YouTube videos from the

1915
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:32,000
podcast and creates shorts from
the videos.

1916
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,880
So you get these little one
minute clips from the videos and

1917
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:39,240
it it does it using AI.
We used to do it manually not

1918
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:43,600
that long ago, few months ago.
Now we use AI.

1919
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:47,280
Well, Riverside that we're
recording in right now has it

1920
01:49:47,280 --> 01:49:50,640
built in.
So the app that I paid $120.00

1921
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:53,560
for or whatever, I don't really
need anymore because we can just

1922
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:57,640
use Riverside now.
So this is how fast everything's

1923
01:49:57,640 --> 01:49:59,520
moving right now.
It's just insane.

1924
01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:02,760
Like we're going to have an AI
bubble at some point because

1925
01:50:02,920 --> 01:50:05,520
there's just so much money and
time and energy being thrown

1926
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,720
into AI right now.
But what are some of the things

1927
01:50:08,720 --> 01:50:12,320
that Vectorworks does today in
AI using AI?

1928
01:50:14,440 --> 01:50:20,200
Well, basically you can take any
image and whether it's generated

1929
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:23,520
from Vectorworks or not, you can
place an image within

1930
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:27,800
Vectorworks.
And then you can say, like I was

1931
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:31,400
mentioning before, I like to use
white models where it's just the

1932
01:50:31,400 --> 01:50:36,400
structure in the outline of the
set and let it do the generation

1933
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:41,680
of the texturing, the lighting,
the room atmosphere, you know,

1934
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:46,600
whether or not there's sconces
on the exhibit hall wall, things

1935
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:48,280
like that.
You wouldn't want to draw in

1936
01:50:48,280 --> 01:50:56,800
individually and it will take
those images and then based on

1937
01:50:56,800 --> 01:51:00,960
the positive and negative
prompts will generate that.

1938
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:05,360
I actually would would love to
show you some examples but I

1939
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:08,320
don't have them currently loaded
up so I don't want it to have

1940
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:10,880
that embarrassing spot of
searching through a hard drive.

1941
01:51:11,480 --> 01:51:15,600
But if you if any anybody that
is interested in this, you can

1942
01:51:16,280 --> 01:51:22,320
easily reach out to myself, Jay
Woodward at AT factworks.net or

1943
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:26,680
just go on to our website or our
university and there's some good

1944
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:28,880
promo materials.
I don't want this to be a

1945
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:32,320
Vectorworks commercial, but
since the question was there, if

1946
01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:37,440
anybody does want to go to look
at that, there are some examples

1947
01:51:37,440 --> 01:51:39,840
of what it does.
But basically you have the image

1948
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:45,880
and some prompts on the on the
side of the dialogue box and the

1949
01:51:45,880 --> 01:51:48,880
positive and negative prompts.
So if you don't want to see

1950
01:51:50,000 --> 01:51:54,000
Mardi Gras theme or you don't
want anything things like that,

1951
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:57,000
you can put it into a negative
colours, you don't want things

1952
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,520
like that.
And then obviously there's a lot

1953
01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:02,920
more in the positive prompts.
If you want to really drive

1954
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:07,760
something home, you put it in (
1 or multiple times and that's

1955
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:11,000
saying to you know to really
drive that, that point home.

1956
01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:14,400
And then you have a slider that
says creativity.

1957
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:19,000
And if you leave it at 0, well,
it's going to look at that model

1958
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:20,720
and it's not going to affect the
model at all.

1959
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:24,120
And it's going to be pretty
accurate to your prompts.

1960
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:28,320
And then if you bring the
creativity up, it's going to

1961
01:52:28,320 --> 01:52:30,720
start saying, OK, I don't have
to stay within that.

1962
01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:34,760
I can color a little bit outside
of the lines, so to speak.

1963
01:52:35,320 --> 01:52:39,560
And then once you have that, you
have a slider that will show you

1964
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:43,840
the original and kind of merge
the two together to make some

1965
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:45,840
nice images.
You can obviously save the

1966
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:49,800
images and share them, but the
nice thing about it is that you

1967
01:52:49,800 --> 01:52:54,720
can also take the picture out of
the equation and just use the

1968
01:52:54,720 --> 01:53:00,240
prompts and come up with some
original ideas that let it, you

1969
01:53:00,240 --> 01:53:01,760
know.
Same thing with the creativity

1970
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:04,400
slider, Let it start off the
conversation.

1971
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:07,080
It's kind of like playing chess
with yourself, OK?

1972
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:11,000
And I like that idea.
And I'll bring the thing that

1973
01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:18,200
right now that once an image is
there you have the ability to

1974
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:21,720
create similar as well.
So if you like the what you got

1975
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:24,880
you can stay in that theme and
stay close to that but have

1976
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:29,000
different variations of it and
you know some some great stuff

1977
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:32,360
you know first round just came
out in our last service pack.

1978
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:35,240
So it isn't something that it's
available to everybody.

1979
01:53:35,240 --> 01:53:39,240
Now if you have, you know our
our current version, just go on

1980
01:53:39,240 --> 01:53:43,520
and get the service pack and it
works in conjunction with our

1981
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:47,720
cloud services which is a great
way for teams to collaborate.

1982
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:51,080
Again, I don't want to make this
as a pitch, but a lot of people

1983
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:53,640
out there work on individual
files and then give it to the

1984
01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:56,160
production team.
And then the poor production

1985
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:58,840
manager who doesn't know Vector
works very well is trying to

1986
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:02,160
take all this information and
combine it into one.

1987
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:05,000
Yeah, we have something called
project sharing that lets the

1988
01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:08,040
whole team work together.
Yeah, everybody sees the

1989
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,600
updates.
But again, I I want to make sure

1990
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:12,880
that this this doesn't, I'll
run.

1991
01:54:13,320 --> 01:54:17,520
I'll run sadly out of knowledge
anyways because I've never I've

1992
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:21,120
never done anything in vector.
Yeah, So but but if anybody has

1993
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:23,200
interest just reach on that.
Easy to find.

1994
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:26,520
I was just really more curious
just about how you guys are

1995
01:54:26,520 --> 01:54:29,640
incorporating because there's
there's such a pushback from our

1996
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:33,200
industry right now related to
the topic of AI.

1997
01:54:33,320 --> 01:54:37,280
You know, and I understand it,
believe me.

1998
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:40,960
I understand why people are
afraid because I do think it's

1999
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:44,760
going to shake some things up.
I do think some people are

2000
01:54:45,160 --> 01:54:47,960
either going to be out of work
or not be able to charge as

2001
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,680
much, or it's going to change
some things for some people.

2002
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:56,120
But I think good designers are
probably going to become better

2003
01:54:56,400 --> 01:55:01,720
and more sought after and more
valuable to their clients with

2004
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:05,440
AI than they were without it.
And so that's the good news.

2005
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:10,720
Now, if you were doing a very
tedious task in the past that

2006
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:13,520
nobody else really wanted to do
and it just got shuffled down to

2007
01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:15,200
you, that task might be going
away.

2008
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:20,080
You know, things like just
writing lines of code or or

2009
01:55:20,080 --> 01:55:22,320
things like that.
Like, you know, Richard Kadena,

2010
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:24,120
I'm sure, right?
Very well, yeah.

2011
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:27,160
So Richard was on my podcast, I
don't know, a month ago or

2012
01:55:27,160 --> 01:55:30,600
something, And he said one of
the first uses that he had for

2013
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:35,680
AI was he writes these
JavaScript things.

2014
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:41,800
And he said it used to take him
days, hours and sometimes days

2015
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:43,720
to put these javascripts
together.

2016
01:55:44,160 --> 01:55:48,120
And now he does it in a couple
of minutes with AI.

2017
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:51,520
It's just that simple, right?
So you get that part of your

2018
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:54,640
life back to do other things
that are more valuable and more

2019
01:55:54,640 --> 01:55:58,480
productive.
And so I I'm, I'm really excited

2020
01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:01,480
about where it's going and it'll
be interesting to see where you

2021
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:03,920
guys go with it.
Cuz I know, like I even talked

2022
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:08,760
with with Steve Warren about
this last week from Avo, where,

2023
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:12,160
you know, when do consoles
program themselves, You know,

2024
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:14,680
they can.
I mean, the technology's

2025
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:17,880
certainly out there that they
could and you could put in, you

2026
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:21,560
know, things like, you know,
make it look like Beyoncé from

2027
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:25,040
2017, You know, that look during
whatever.

2028
01:56:25,040 --> 01:56:27,280
I couldn't name a Beyoncé song
to save my life.

2029
01:56:27,280 --> 01:56:32,400
But, you know, so some of that
stuff I think is going to sneak

2030
01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:36,640
its way in, but it's going to
have to do it in a way that, you

2031
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:40,000
know, doesn't cause designers to
use a different product because

2032
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:43,240
they're afraid of it.
Pardon me, now I'm.

2033
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:46,080
Choking.
But there's always that one

2034
01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:50,720
factor of the the true gift of a
designer is to go into a

2035
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:55,440
situation and project that idea
to other people.

2036
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:59,080
And I don't, you know, I don't
think there's ever a point where

2037
01:56:59,080 --> 01:57:03,160
you can just throw the laptop in
front of Beyoncé and say here

2038
01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:06,720
hit the design cool show button,
that there's always going to be

2039
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:09,680
someone that has to sit there.
And sometimes it's not a

2040
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:14,600
pleasant job to sit there with
an artist that has limited time

2041
01:57:14,640 --> 01:57:18,680
and maybe is a little tired from
the last night's trip.

2042
01:57:19,320 --> 01:57:23,800
And you've got to be able to
have that personal interaction

2043
01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:27,720
with the performer, with the
production, the producer,

2044
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:32,120
whatever the case might be.
And to put that all together, I

2045
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:34,840
think that's where you know the
there's always going to be that

2046
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:36,920
human.
Of course portion involved.

2047
01:57:36,920 --> 01:57:39,840
You know it's one of the the the
most interesting shows I ever

2048
01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:42,960
saw and it baffled me because
technically I'm trying to figure

2049
01:57:42,960 --> 01:57:47,320
out how it was being done was
the Beijing Olympics when they

2050
01:57:47,320 --> 01:57:53,080
had them on mahjong I believe
the the tile game and they the

2051
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:56,320
whole floor was covered with
these cubes that went up and

2052
01:57:56,320 --> 01:57:57,400
down I.
Remember that.

2053
01:57:57,600 --> 01:57:58,760
Yeah.
And I'm looking at it and I'm

2054
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:02,560
trying to think, wow, what is
what did Tate put underneath

2055
01:58:02,560 --> 01:58:05,160
that floor?
How was the hydraulics in such a

2056
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:08,000
small, confined space?
And there's a video wall on

2057
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:10,120
underneath that?
Where did they get the room for

2058
01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:13,440
that hydraulics?
And I'm trying to figure out how

2059
01:58:13,440 --> 01:58:18,160
those, you know, 2000 tiles were
moving up and down at the end of

2060
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:19,560
it.
Oh, I sure did.

2061
01:58:19,560 --> 01:58:23,760
At the end of it, the the IT,
the top of them all flipped open

2062
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:27,200
in 2000.
People came out and waved.

2063
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:30,160
Somebody told me that story.
Before I heard that one before

2064
01:58:30,160 --> 01:58:32,440
on this podcast and I was like,
what it's.

2065
01:58:32,640 --> 01:58:36,160
Like, got it, got it.
And and that was it right there.

2066
01:58:36,160 --> 01:58:40,240
And from what I understand, they
rehearsed that for a long, long

2067
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:44,600
time with volunteers and they
rehearsed that for months on end

2068
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:48,920
out in a a football state you
know local high school football

2069
01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:53,440
kind of facility.
And that was the the only way to

2070
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:55,840
do it.
That's incredible people power.

2071
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:59,120
Yeah, someone else told me that
story, somebody who was involved

2072
01:58:59,120 --> 01:59:03,080
with the show or something, and
I I was shocked by that.

2073
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:05,000
That's incredible.
Yeah.

2074
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,560
You know, again, I mean the
lovely thing, the the amazing

2075
01:59:08,560 --> 01:59:11,080
thing about our industry is that
it does keep moving forward.

2076
01:59:11,080 --> 01:59:14,640
But one of the things you said
earlier where, you know, a flood

2077
01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:18,760
came into the stadium, Gillette
Stadium or whatever, and they

2078
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:21,640
lost the lighting rig except for
the follow spots.

2079
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:26,080
You know, that's where you need
a human, a bunch of humans, You

2080
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:28,760
know what I mean?
Like AI isn't going to know what

2081
01:59:28,760 --> 01:59:31,800
to do in that situation.
AI isn't going to flip the

2082
01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:34,680
switch over to something else.
AI isn't going to fix that

2083
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:37,680
problem.
And because you have to monitor

2084
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:42,200
the what's going on in reality
right now, you have to know the

2085
01:59:42,200 --> 01:59:44,720
music, You have to know the
crowd you like.

2086
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:48,160
I mean, and you got to make a
decision on the fly with a

2087
01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:51,480
production manager or a manager
or somebody yelling in your ear

2088
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:55,080
saying what the hell is going
on, you know, or.

2089
01:59:55,080 --> 01:59:58,320
A situation like, you know,
something of a program that I'm

2090
01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:02,520
very fond of is the Event Safety
Alliance and how they really

2091
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:08,480
have have have really stepped up
to keeping our industry safe and

2092
02:00:09,240 --> 02:00:13,760
how nobody can make that
decision of cancelling a show.

2093
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:18,240
And you've got, you know, 70,000
people in an event and you've

2094
02:00:18,240 --> 02:00:20,400
got some weather situations and
you've got.

2095
02:00:21,440 --> 02:00:24,440
You've got the, you know, the,
the weather team, you know, and

2096
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:27,480
the state police all giving you
information.

2097
02:00:27,480 --> 02:00:30,560
And then you have that balance
of if we cancel the show now

2098
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:34,240
we've got 70,000 people that
could turn into a very riot,

2099
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,400
unpleasant situation.
And it only takes a trained

2100
02:00:37,400 --> 02:00:41,440
person that's gone through that
to know how to handle that well,

2101
02:00:41,480 --> 02:00:43,800
and they made the wrong.
Call, you know, Jim.

2102
02:00:43,920 --> 02:00:46,760
Jim told that story on the
podcast a couple months a few

2103
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:50,680
months ago.
And you know that's it's very

2104
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:52,280
similar story.
I don't know if it's the same

2105
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:54,520
one, but the the the.
Tornadoes.

2106
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:56,440
All fictitious.
It's just that you know.

2107
02:00:56,440 --> 02:00:58,160
Well, this was.
The tornado going through

2108
02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:02,960
Indiana and you know the
festival organizers or whatever

2109
02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:05,400
said Oh no, it's gonna miss us.
It's far away.

2110
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:08,280
The storm is gonna miss us.
Just give us another, you know

2111
02:01:08,440 --> 02:01:12,960
half hour or something.
And you know, and in came the

2112
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:15,480
tornado and blew through there
and took the stage and killed

2113
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:19,240
some people, you know, and so
yeah, you're right.

2114
02:01:19,320 --> 02:01:24,080
I mean, human intervention,
human decision making, emotions,

2115
02:01:24,080 --> 02:01:27,040
all of those things.
I don't know that that's ever

2116
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:30,320
going to change.
So I, I again, I I have to look

2117
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:31,800
at the positive side of all of
this.

2118
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:35,160
I think there's other
industries, other worlds where

2119
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:38,000
AI is going to be more
problematic than ours because

2120
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:42,760
ours is built on creativity and
emotion and feeling and people

2121
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:46,480
and you know, being live, being
together and all of that kind of

2122
02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:50,600
stuff.
So collaboration, whereas, you

2123
02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:53,240
know, when you think of things
like weaponry, you know, and

2124
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:56,120
wars, and you know we're going
to have wars in the future where

2125
02:01:56,120 --> 02:01:59,600
it's drones on both sides
controlled by AI.

2126
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:05,800
And that's scary because there's
when there's no human cost in a

2127
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:08,400
war other than who's getting
killed on the ground.

2128
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:14,640
But it's weird, you know, I was
reading, I was reading like a

2129
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:20,480
week ago or two weeks ago about
a a dogfight that was just won

2130
02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:26,880
by an AI controlled plane, which
is pretty wild.

2131
02:02:28,240 --> 02:02:29,840
I think it was AI, think it was
drones.

2132
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:32,280
I think it was a dog fight
between 2 drones, one was

2133
02:02:32,280 --> 02:02:34,960
controlled by human and one was
controlled by AI.

2134
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:39,600
And the AI won won.
One of our good teammates here

2135
02:02:39,760 --> 02:02:44,360
moved on to a career that I
think is could, would be very,

2136
02:02:44,360 --> 02:02:47,720
very rewarding.
He was in our training

2137
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:51,120
department and just a really,
really nice guy.

2138
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:57,120
Don Ward and a superb trainer
had moved on to a drone company

2139
02:02:57,120 --> 02:03:01,040
that delivers medical organs by
drones.

2140
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:02,520
Oh, that's cool.
And we think, well,

2141
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:05,560
entertainment's pretty cool.
We make a lot of people happy.

2142
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:08,640
We we we we make those
spectacles, whatever.

2143
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:12,200
But there's also something to be
said about getting a kidney

2144
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:15,520
across town, not getting stuck
in traffic and training the

2145
02:03:15,520 --> 02:03:20,160
people that, you know, operate
those.

2146
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:23,640
And you know, I looked at that.
I said, Boy, now that's actually

2147
02:03:23,640 --> 02:03:26,400
making a difference.
Yeah, that's a.

2148
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:30,360
Very interesting, yeah.
But to actually, like, use, you

2149
02:03:30,360 --> 02:03:32,760
know, that technology to save
lives like that?

2150
02:03:33,880 --> 02:03:36,600
So cool.
Well, I I very much appreciate

2151
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:40,480
you coming on and doing this.
I There's so much more to your

2152
02:03:40,480 --> 02:03:43,120
life, I'm sure, and I'd love to
sit here and talk for three

2153
02:03:43,120 --> 02:03:44,520
hours.
But that was pretty much it.

2154
02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:46,600
That was all 50 years, all
wrapped up in an hour.

2155
02:03:47,080 --> 02:03:49,880
But I, you know, I had a lot of
fun in the industry.

2156
02:03:49,880 --> 02:03:53,560
I had a lot of learning to do.
I made a lot of people angry

2157
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:57,440
over the years and I apologize
to each and everyone of you made

2158
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:01,000
some you know Yeah you know and
it was it was one of those

2159
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:04,040
things you learned and a good
portion of the job was just

2160
02:04:04,040 --> 02:04:07,360
getting along with people you
were working with in technology.

2161
02:04:07,360 --> 02:04:10,600
You'll always figure that out.
But just how to walk away at the

2162
02:04:10,600 --> 02:04:14,040
end of the day and saying hey I
remember that that person I

2163
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:16,960
worked with and and to see
people go further.

2164
02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:20,560
Definitely a shout out to
everybody that put this together

2165
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:23,680
and I appreciate you offering me
a chance to come up here and

2166
02:04:23,680 --> 02:04:27,520
tell some old stories and I
hope, I hope those are from from

2167
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,120
the best of my recollection.
Some of those, those are some

2168
02:04:30,160 --> 02:04:33,800
blurry industry on part of it.
So hopefully my facts aren't

2169
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:35,160
aren't too.
Awful.

2170
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:39,680
You know what I will say though?
Anybody who can, who can last 50

2171
02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:43,720
years in this industry and stay
working pretty much non-stop for

2172
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,640
the entire 50 years, that says a
lot.

2173
02:04:45,640 --> 02:04:48,040
You know that says that you've
done some really great things

2174
02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:53,240
along the way and you know more
good than bad because it is an

2175
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:55,840
industry that'll kick you out
when you screw up too badly, I

2176
02:04:55,840 --> 02:04:58,120
think.
So good on you.

2177
02:04:58,280 --> 02:05:00,120
I mean that's that's quite an
accomplishment.

2178
02:05:00,120 --> 02:05:02,800
Not too many people right now
can say that.

2179
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:05,520
I've been in the lighting
business 50 years so.

2180
02:05:05,560 --> 02:05:08,720
Yeah, I was definitely blessed
to to to have some great people

2181
02:05:08,720 --> 02:05:12,720
take the time to teach me.
And I encourage everybody that,

2182
02:05:12,720 --> 02:05:16,120
you know, turn around and see
the future of the people that

2183
02:05:16,120 --> 02:05:18,280
are struggling now and and try
to help them.

2184
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:24,400
Oh yeah, the the the Jake Barry
and Charlie Hernandez down at

2185
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:27,200
the Rock Lititz Conference are
doing just that.

2186
02:05:27,200 --> 02:05:31,680
If anybody's not aware of that,
I I just, you know hats off to

2187
02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:35,800
those guys paying it forward and
they're they're just getting

2188
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:38,200
everybody that has this kind of
knowledge.

2189
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:41,800
It's your turn step up.
Help the people that helped you

2190
02:05:42,080 --> 02:05:44,000
you know and help the new people
coming up.

2191
02:05:44,000 --> 02:05:47,360
Make sure people don't get hurt.
If if people don't know how to

2192
02:05:47,360 --> 02:05:50,440
use fall protection correctly
and someone says well it's not

2193
02:05:50,440 --> 02:05:53,240
my job to teach them, yeah it
is.

2194
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:56,920
It's our industries to turn
around and make sure that we all

2195
02:05:56,920 --> 02:05:59,960
stay attacked and and we all try
to help each other.

2196
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:03,920
I mean, it's true because an
accident doesn't just hurt that

2197
02:06:03,920 --> 02:06:06,280
one event.
It hurts all of us, you know,

2198
02:06:06,720 --> 02:06:09,640
and we've seen that, you know,
when things like a stage blowing

2199
02:06:09,640 --> 02:06:12,480
over happens, you know, now all
of a sudden the government

2200
02:06:12,480 --> 02:06:15,080
thinks they need to come in and
run our industry because we're

2201
02:06:15,080 --> 02:06:17,720
incapable.
So if you want to keep the

2202
02:06:17,720 --> 02:06:21,080
government out of your stuff,
you know, just make sure that

2203
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:23,320
you're paying attention to
what's going on and you are

2204
02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:26,920
using great safety protocol and
all of that kind of stuff.

2205
02:06:26,920 --> 02:06:29,960
But yeah, you're right.
But, yeah, again, thanks and

2206
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:35,840
congratulations on 50 years in
the industry and and yeah, I

2207
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,520
look forward to maybe bumping
into you at a trade show or

2208
02:06:38,520 --> 02:06:41,080
something going forward.
Absolutely.

2209
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:42,080
All right.
Thanks for listening.

2210
02:06:42,080 --> 02:07:16,080
Yeah, see ya.
None.