#237 - Glenn Roggeman, CEO of AED

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2:58 And I'm back. Thanks again for joining me Episode #237 and thank you for supporting all of our sponsors. I know when it's companies like these like all of our sponsors who are pretty great, it's easy to support them, but we appreciate it and they're they appreciate it. Our sponsors keep coming back. So you're doing a great job following them and supporting them and helping them and buying from them etcetera. So thanks again. So once again, today's episode is 237. I've probably said that five times, but it's still shocking to me that I've done 236 of these already and we keep going. You know, we're booked solid right now with guests until I think mid June or something. We're booked pretty far and Sarah's getting calls almost daily right now for new guests.

3:52 So it's amazing. We appreciate it. If you're listening to this and you want to be on the podcast, reach out to producer@geezersofgear.com. That will get you to Sarah. She'll get you into the screening and then booking process and we'll try to find a date that fits for you. So thanks. So today's guest, Glenn Rogeman was last on the podcast in 2019. And obviously things are very different than 2019. In some ways. They're very much the same again, But a lot has happened since that time. Obviously. It's funny. It's like an apocalypse or something.

4:32 When you look backwards at 2019, it's like, whoa, you know, so, but yeah, feel free to check that episode out. It's #35 very early in our time as well. And so, you know, I know COVID impacted his business. I'm looking forward to hearing about that. Knowing Glenn as well as I do right now, I'm assuming that it was all positive impact, everything was perfect and we, you know, we cured COVID. COVID jokes aside. But you know, Glenn is a promoter, he's a great sales guy and I look forward to having that discussion. And I know that Glenn's notoriously well funded.

5:15 You can tell by all of the businesses he has. They're all beautiful. His building is beautiful. His party is parties are notorious. The the Christmas party, the customer appreciation event or whatever it's called that they do every year is incredible. It's it's you know again notorious. So he's quite well funded. But still, I think COVID pushed the limits on everything and I think that AED might have even closed. I think they closed a location in Asia at one point but it since that time, since COVID, they've just expanded like crazy. They're flying high and growing like crazy and so, so of course today's guest Glenn Rogeman is the CEO of the AED Group.

5:59 He founded AED in Belgium in 1985 as a dry hire rental company for lighting and sound equipment. Today the AED Group is a major player in the audio visual market in Europe employing more than 300 people in eight countries, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, France, United Kingdom, Italy and I think most recently the UAE. We're going to talk about the new, the new facility that they have there and and from what I hear they're doing really well. In 2013, Glenn acquired AED Studios and transformed it into the most eco friendly entertainment complex catering to film and TV productions, show rehearsals and corporate events.

6:49 Sorry, I keep looking down because something's flashing at me on my control system here. Glenn also founded, or AED also founded, an audio brand, lighting brand trusting and so much more. So please, before I break something, welcome back Glenn Rogeman. Hello, Glenn. Good evening. How are you? Good evening for you. Afternoon for me I'm good. Thank you. How are you? Finally thinking about the high tea. Because you're in the afternoon, I'm in the evening, we're fine. Yeah, yeah. Well, or a glass of wine or something. You probably have a nice glass of wine sitting there, I'm sure.

7:30 So yeah. Omen my gloves is empty, but I hope it will filling be filled up in. Yeah, I'm sure it will. I'm sure it will. Probably, just as you said that there's a whole room full of people who are scattering around trying to find you a glass of nice red wine. So I feel rising to the supermarkets and she's back in one hour. I'm just arriving. Oh, OK, cool. Yeah. So here it's. PM. Ah, jeez. Yeah. Here it's. I don't even know what time it's 2:00 PM So yeah, six hours. So you were last on my podcast in 2019 and a few things have happened since 2019. Obviously, life has changed considerably. You know, I think the market is is back to sort of a familiar place at least.

8:28 But I want to talk about some of these changes. And of course, you know in 2020 the world changed in a pretty big way and and both of our lives, I know changed. I think you were probably better prepared for it financially than I was. And then a lot of businesses in our industry were, you know, as you know, our industry are not necessarily always the most financially savvy people. Perhaps, you know, we we come from, you know, sort of a passionate place where one day you're an artist and you're doing these beautiful lights or this beautiful sound or whatever. And next thing you know, you're accidentally a businessman. And then next thing you know, COVID hits and you're like, what the hell am I supposed to do, you know? And like I know over here I, I became sort of AI, became a friend and a consultant and A and a commiserator. I don't know what you would call it to so many business owners here.

9:27 And one of the common things was, you know, in in school or my accountant or whoever told me that I should have 60 days of cash reserves. And you know, that's generally a pretty conservative practice, I guess, but nobody had 18 months of cash reserves, you know. So, So yeah, I mean, AED is a big machine though when when you had to shut that machine off, I'm sure it was a little bit frustrating and painful. So first of all, yes, our industry is packed with people, with passion, but also with a lot of knowledge, a lot of knowledge about technology. But for me, our industry, it's like a translator of an artist on stage to 10,050 or 100,000 people hearing and looking to this artist.

10:28 So our industry is wow. And yes, our focus is a lot on the passion of technology and sometimes our industry for getting the financial sides. That's true. And I think COVID has helped our industry evolve to evolve in a better understanding of financial needs of a company. So cash is a dirty words, but you need to have cash flow, you need to have reserves to absorb negative impacts like like Corona. So ID where we prepared for this, yes and no. Yes, we are financially a very strong company. Yes, we have a ultra low debt ratio compared to our assets, but it was still challenging maybe like some of you knowing it who are listening to us.

11:45 I own also one of the main televisions in Europe, so I own 16 film stages. It's about 500,000 square foot ID studios. So there I know a little bit of the film industry and of also Netflix and all the other in the world. So when there were less entertainment, live entertainment events happening, there were way more demand for film and soaps of recording.

12:30 And maybe some of you know we have about 10,000 soft lights in in our rental inventory park, about close to 100 miles of trusting, close to 150 kilometers of trusting corners, circles, all the beautiful things to create rigging. And we rented a lot to the film industry and to the television industry and long term projects also before COVID. COVID hits Europe 19 March 2020. Everything went on lockdown but I was preparing my company from December, middle of December.

13:15 I was preparing my company because I always thought if our industry is hit by something drastic like Corona, it will be very difficult for my customers. So I need to try to find the solution where my customers, the RV rental houses, production houses can have a unique advantage. So I designed like smoke machines with air disinfections. I designed like ultrasonic high frequency, not ultrasonic but ultra high frequency that can eliminate bacterias in the air.

14:01 And I designed face flux problems for the air dispersion because the air industry for miracles and ventilation they were doing something wrong. And This is why everybody in the world when they visit an up key bar the the The Dirty air, what is circulated in the building is reused and they heat it up and blow it on the people. So it's like a germ spreading machine. Like an airplane. Yeah, that's that's really, if you understand something about aerodynamics. I'm a pilot, so I understand it's a nightmare, but all the world accepted like it is and we, a lot of us had corona. So I designed in ultraviolet air disinfection and I well was on the market with production capacity from April, one month after lockdown had the supply chain under control. But when I talked with the government in Belgium in February, they were laughing with me and in April they were still laughing with me.

15:20 And in May and in June they were all laughing with me because they told to the world, it's on your hands if you open the door, be afraid to open the door, be afraid to give a handshake, hey aerodynamic, you cannot have so big impact. It must be airborne. And This is why I started developing own Born air disinfection systems. Yeah, you were, you were very quick to market with I think it was all under the Luxy Bell range, right. The, yeah, I I remember your products were very, very early to market. I was working with your, your North American distributor over here on a bunch of opportunities, but you said that you were preparing beginning in December. So what did you know in December that you didn't tell me? Why didn't I know in December?

16:14 If you analyze that China was deciding the second week of the the first week of December to build large scale hospitals in tents but ultra large scales, you were knowing there's something wrong. So it was hitting Europe in the publicity quite hard in January, February, but in February you're still at IZ going on strangely because it was everywhere in the air, but you had a long incubation time before people was getting ill. And so for me analyzing what happens in November and December in China, I told very fast it's airborne and I will will put my money where my thought is and I will start designing it middle of December.

17:12 I started at the end of December 1st smoke machine with particles in it that disinfect air. Then in end of January had a sound generator who makes a lot of noise but who kills germs. The problem all that it was not very stable and you cannot use it everywhere. So in February I was beginning February I was doing tryouts with ultraviolets. So the 254 nano wavelengths light fictions, light tubes where you have an exposure time of 80 milliseconds if the air runs over the block less than 6 centimeters.

18:05 So I designed that. I let it checked by tooth and at the 99.96% rate of killing of germs. So it was extremely effective. The only thing nobody was telling that it's in the air, everybody was telling it's. But Glenn, even really smart people, like when Italy got hit so hard early on, a very smart friend of mine in Italy called me and said, Marcel, I gotta tell you something. And I said what? And he said buy as many gloves as you can, because Italy's running out of gloves. Buy pallets and pallets of gloves.

18:47 Now I can laugh because it's a joke. I laughed. Then I laughed. Then I said I'm not wearing rubber gloves. So if I'm not gonna wear rubber gloves, why would I buy pallets of rubber gloves to sell to people? You know, this is crazy. Masks, yes. Yeah. But the downside of masks that your immune system of your body gets down because you don't have a lot of germs getting in, so you immune loses force. Yeah, plus none of the none of the masks fit well enough to to really solve the problem anyways. You're solving a a a small part of the problem. Not a big part, but it became so.

19:30 People became so angry about the whole topic. So this was another thing. It was a pandemic of of bad information as well, from both ends. Regardless of your political affiliation or whatever, it became a real problem for good information. The World Health Organization came online about air transmitting of germs, or fetus or bacteria, in August 2020. Yeah, that's crazy. Like 5 months later, then they locked everything down like nine months later that they knowing we have the problems. Yeah, what?

20:12 So but coming how did I survive? By doing other stuff. I was the guy talking with politics about disinfection and I was hoping that all my customers, I have about 2500 customers. Are they professional users that they grab this, use this, sell this, make profit on it? I had even cannons to do stadiums. I was thinking, hey guys, invest in it, rent it to events, tell it to politician and we can change the world. The thing is, nobody's waiting for that.

20:53 We have all passionate people, but sometimes our industry it's very creative but also very narrow minded. Yeah, well, the other problem, Glenn, none of us knew how. They companies I sold them everywhere in the world but. Not and that's. It. But part of the thing was our industry could only think about when are we going back to doing shows. And and so that window started at sort of 90 days like from March. People were thinking by June or July we were going to be back doing shows, not two years, Yeah. I was the guy telling it will take the world and the politics and the economy two years when I was talking to my banks they were all laughing with me.

21:43 Try to imagine had like $100 million standing open leasing contact where my customers need to pay me. I was lying leasing to the industry in Europe and they and my bank told me it's simple, you can pay, pay up, pay all the debts from all my customers. Oh my goodness. Because the banks were telling you in two months it's, it's normal. In three months it's done. This summer, everything is normal. Yeah, In September it's normal. So it was all the time. Yeah, in one or two months it's normal. And I don't know, it's two years and we worked.

22:26 Yeah. In in the in problems in our industry. But coming back, how did we survive? We had a lot to film and television. Well, how did that work though, Glenn? Like were you still, you were still the studio was still fully operational and you had staff working there and stuff? Because over here, I mean everything was pretty much shut down because it was California and the politics said you have to close basically. Correct. We were closed in the studios for six weeks and after six weeks you had the limitation of distance and blah blah. But we were doing film sets and and soap stuff. But also thanks to that there were a lot of studios all over Europe making more and more episodes and more and more Netflix and Amazon and Prime.

23:22 What is all that? And they had the needs. So at one moment we have more than 8000 light fictions out in film in Europe and also the UVCI sold a lot everywhere in the world beside in Belgium and besides to our network to our customers had new customers buying for me no companies eco companies in other states in other countries. So we were still hitting above 50% of our turnover in the group and that was quite amazing if. You know it.

24:02 Very impressive. It's 8%. Wow. Well, twice. And we were hitting above 50%. Very good. Yeah. That's so much better than the industry as a whole. You know, I mean again you said it, our industry is so creative and the people in it are so creative. And you know, so I had a weekly zoom call that I was doing for our industry for company owners and lighting designers and sound engineers. It just started as a happy hour where we would all have a glass of wine on Wednesday afternoon and just talk. And then it became like 100 people every week.

24:44 Very key people, very smart people and we were talking about just ways to sustain yourself, ways to sustain your business and different pivots that people are doing to to continue their business. But it you know some of the things like when people talked about it, I just knew that it was a bad idea and it wasn't going to work like drive in concerts, you know these these drive in concerts where there were cars parked, I don't know, 10 meters apart or something and and you listen on the speakers on the radio in your car and there's a band playing on a stage far in front of you. I just knew that wasn't going to work. Like to me that's not going to a concert that you might as well watch it on YouTube at home. It's probably better sound system. And so some of those things that that people tried and even even the like XR stage streaming concerts and stuff like that stuff just for the most part for me didn't work. It wasn't the entertainment.

25:48 I didn't think now like last week, I don't know if you know who Dan Brown is, but he's the former production manager and now I think he's the creative director or something for Metallica. He's been with Metallica over 30 years. And so they did one, an XR concert that was really good because they had this screen that went around them in full 360 and it had sort of little micro screens where you could see the audience. So they had thousands of people up on the screen at any time. And he could say, look, you Bob in in, you know, Brussels or whatever, let's rock, you know, and he could talk to people on the screen or the band could talk to people on the screen.

26:36 And so the band enjoyed it because it felt like they had an audience and the audience enjoyed it because it was interactive. But other than that, I never saw it done well. Correctly. I saw this technology coming from sports industry where you had sport industry, you had to like televisions like 1000 television holes. Hate you So terrible. So terrible. Like, what a terrible experience that is. But even for the athletes, you know, like I'm a big hockey fan because I'm Canadian, of course, and watching hockey games with no fans in the audience, to me was just so weird. And I can't imagine what it was like to be the players with an empty building, you know, very strange, very odd. So, so.

27:28 Our industry is fairly creative, very mind blowing, very flexible because in Europe you have about 12,000 rental houses completely, Europe production houses 12,000. And they were not 100 going bankrupt, No. So they stick it out, they survive the cuts and that's because even when they had cash flow problems, even if they had bad debt at the bank, they were doing everything to survive and did really did a good job and they came back strong, powerful, greatly flexible.

28:14 And that's something that I love about our industry. To create. The flex, the, the yeah, the positive. Well, you were in an interesting position, as you just mentioned coming out of COVID, when you were carrying so much paper. And did you end up, were you in a position, and this might be something you don't even want to tell me, but where you had to write off a bunch of that paper or did everyone just find a way to catch up? How did that work? I think it's a mixed emotion answer. So first of all, we rescheduled the listings, so we prolonged it in time.

28:58 That's one. So we given all our customers we had about I think 500 toss years, 500 leasing contracts and we made the meeting with all of them sometimes 2 on the day, sometimes 3 on the day and we rescheduled or reframed time frame of the leasing. So it was a big help for a lot of those customers. That's one. Two, yes, I've written down bad debts. So I thought I written down like $20 million of bad debt for 50.

29:41 But now it's getting back because thanks in our bookkeeping we write it down but with our customers we discussed how we can do it. We don't want to push them in bankruptcy. So we restructured their finals deal and we prolonged the time. So when they didn't have the capacity for 20 months of payment terms, we added 22 months with interests. Interesting. So I think we were there to help all our customers and not to push them in bank and taking over them at peanuts their shares. I know a few companies that done that. I think sometimes ideas too clean, too honest, too regional and too gentle.

30:37 We are not aggressive on the market. Our prices are price. Everybody shoots in our price and want to rent their equipment cheaper than us. That's not IDID is a partner, a loyal one. We don't do productions already 39 years. We are there to help production company achieving their goals. Is it technical wise you need thousand line arrays for to do in the Pope somewhere or is it financially wise you need to spread your package your finance again or you have assets, way too much assets and you want to sell them in one go. Even there we can help our customers as we take here in our occasion platform and we can or resells new equipment or not.

31:30 Well, the the, I think one of the problems is you know coming out of COVID, if you're too aggressive on the financing, instead of carrying paper, you're going to be carrying old product because people will return product. And this was one of the problems I saw is because you know, I know companies who came out of COVID with boxes that were brand new, not even opened of moving lights for example. And let's say it's a version two and now 2021-2022 happens and the company released version three. And I haven't even opened the boxes for version 2 because I got them right before COVID. You know, I got them at the end of 19/20/19. So you know carrying paper I think is is probably more you know efficient or effective than carrying old inventory in in some cases especially when you don't have control over the release dates from the manufacturers and stuff. And some of these manufacturers really struggled like if you look at you know Grand Grand MA lighting that they launched the MA three and then COVID happened and you know they didn't have a lot of time to get people on board with the MA Three. And what that did is that created a lot of sales for three years of the MA two and you know MA twos. We were selling used MA twos on Gearsource during COVID for 12 to $15,000.

33:01 By the end of COVID by early 22, those same consoles were selling for $30,000.30. No, They went way up, but then they went. Not yet, no. They're still, I mean they're still 18 to $20,000 for a full size MA two. OK that's yeah, they're still good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but the point is that that you know some companies I think just got screwed a little bit on their timing with with release dates of product. And and so you know they either had a product just ready to release and COVID happened and now you're holding on to sort of older technology for a couple years while your competitors might be investing heavily in R&D and creating new products. So yeah, I mean I don't know I guess for me the manufacturers how they came out of COVID was completely different than what I expected.

33:57 Like, I didn't think all of the moving light manufacturers would be able to survive. But not only were they able to survive, they were able to thrive. Like they they sold every light that wasn't bolted to the ground. They sold it in 2021 and 2022. It was just such a crazy market for a couple of years there, so. Let's hope you had problems in supply chain. There were more demand than production capacity. Yeah. At at Acoustic, you had some products with two years waiting time. Yeah. The ground demand today, I think almost two years waiting time. It's 18.

34:43 So try to buy 500 motors. That's a massive big problem if you want to have them in four weeks. Yeah, yeah, that's really hard. Why I started my own brands? Yeah. Yeah. Then you can control some of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, production capacity is an interesting one because I remember, oh, probably end of 22. I spoke with what's his name, oh, James Gordon, the the CEO from Audio Tonics, Audionics, Audio Tonics, the Digico basically. And I spoke with him and and he said, you know, sales are not our problem, capacity is our problem. Like you know we're getting a longer and longer and longer and longer back order and even supply chain by that time wasn't a problem, it was still capacity just trying to catch up to what the demand had done.

35:55 And then the problem is, and you know this as a businessman, so you look at the demand and it's sort of a false demand because you're still trying to backfill. And so you don't want to just triple the size of your of your operation, you know, and create a much larger manufacturing facility so that you can hit that demand. But you also can't go on forever disappointing your customers and saying, yes, I can get you the new Quantum whatever console. It's going to take 18 months. You know they're going to buy something else at some point because if the need is here right now, like I can't wait 18 months. So it's an interesting problem.

36:35 I mean we're you said it already, you said our industry in many ways got smarter because of COVID and I think a lot of companies, mine included, had to learn some really hard financial lessons. And you know because many of our companies unlike yours, many of our companies are really small and we don't necessarily have 10 accountants on staff who are, are geniuses. You know, sometimes we might just have a part time CPA who works from a tiny little office in the back of their house and doesn't know how to give you the best advice perhaps. And so I think there were a lot of mistakes made. Unfortunately, as smart as we've gotten, I think in some ways we've gotten Dumber.

37:22 And you know, especially as the market got really, really busy over the past couple of years, I've seen companies who were making a lot more money than maybe they should be. Perhaps maybe maybe they're, they're sort of living outside of their, their comfort zone or outside of their, you know, their knowledge level or whatever you want to call it. But they're, it looks like money's just falling from the sky. So they're starting to buy houses and cars and boats and all of those things instead of really focusing on protecting their business so that it can survive if something like this happens again, right? Or or anything happens again. So it's it's an interesting lesson. I can tell you from the top 25 companies in the world, three were asking me to have a cut down on their payment but they were having an open standing debt of let's say something in between 500,000 U.S. dollars and two million U.S. dollars from 25. 40% of them were asking hey can you cut down then I will pay faster and blah blah blah blah blah. I've done it with a few of my major clients. I don't know a cut down of their invoice and then they assigned with me a payment term and in 36

38:56 months of of their invoices that all the equipment was rented out, 3 1/2 years before that that it was paid and then a cut down of for example 20% because otherwise they may could go bankrupt. And I'm telling now from the top 25 companies, three of them, you know what, what is a pity. So we help those companies and they are not loyal. That's something that shocks me a lot. I'm known in Europe to be a strong and hard businessman.

39:37 No, I'm a human being and come to me with your hands open and everything goes. But if you help somebody in life, for me it's normal that they stay after it loyal or they find a way to pay you back. Zero of those 3. Wow, wow, that's terrible. Well, you know, you're in a you're in a unique position because quite often we go to our customers or or whoever and we say, hey, look, I'm not a bank, stop treating me like a bank. But in a sense you are a bank.

40:18 You know, this is the position that you stand in and it's one of the many benefits that AED offers to their customers is you know some financial solutions leasing and things like that, so. Sale back sale or we buy your equipment back and you can buy new equipment or anything sale and lease back. Yeah, yeah. And we lease back new kids. We do it every month. Yeah, for it. Interesting. So this year you've owned the company 39 years. You founded the company 39 years ago, which is incredible.

40:59 It makes you start to feel a little bit older when you think of things like that because you remember, I'm sure, when you when you started the company. Are you planning anything big for the for the big 40th anniversary next year? The answer is yes. I'm black. Something big, Something commercially big, Something as a party big. So all my loyal customers who are working with us will have a benefit of our 40 years of ID, but that's something for next year. Yeah, I'm still still living in this year. But it's funny because I know you love a good party and and you know your, your big customer appreciation events and stuff are are, you know, I talked about it in the intro today to the recording. You know, notorious, like you're notorious for throwing a big event and a big party and a big celebration and you're good at it.

41:57 You know how to do it. Something I respect all my customers from the smallest one to the most largest one. And that's something that I give back to my customers every the last 10 editions or last 10 years, 8 editions there were about in between 20 to 23 countries and about 802,500 companies visiting our party always in the middle of December. And you have people from anywhere in the world. And that's something what is nice to see that our industry, we have a common passion and the best friends you can make with a common passion.

42:47 If it's soccer or it's in the army or it's driving Alzheimer's, if you have a common passion, you can build the best friendship or playing tennis or paddle something new in Europe. But you find connection with people who's got the same passion. And sometimes in my industry I'm missing that. Yeah, yeah. I know what you say and especially, you know, you and I come from a similar generation. And so I always hate to say, but young people today are different, but it's true. You know, young people today are different. And you know, when we were young, the way that we did things to to gain business or to take care of our customer or whatever, we have a different mindset when it comes to that stuff.

43:41 Newer, younger companies or younger sales people, younger business people. Today it's different. It's different. For me my words is much more important than thousand contacts. My word is written in stone. If I say something and the case with some other people normal, so I what I find normal, I expected back and that's something I need to get used to. Even after 39 years, I'm not ready to accept it. I'm ready to accept the good in everybody.

44:23 I'm ready to accept the the passion. I'm ready to accept the technical challenges that our industry is doing. I accept negativity. I don't accept breaking your words. I have it. That's if you ask me, what is? What do you hate? That's maybe my top three. Written You know, it's funny because as you're saying it, I, like my girlfriend tells me all the time, Like your biggest problem is you trust and you believe everyone. And it's true. If if you tell me something and you say this is what I'm going to do, OK, that's it.

45:09 I don't need a contract. I don't need lawyers. I don't need anything. Because Glenn told me that's what he's going to do. And this is how I've always been and I've been this way with business partners, with employees, with, you know, all kinds of people. And unfortunately it has hurt me many times. You know, it has caused me a lot of problems, so. Financially, but it had cost me also emotionally had in the past one of my best friends who was also an associate in the ID group and I kept. I found them stealing but really stealing a lot and I split it and never talked to nobody about that. It's is a divorce with my best buddy and with my he was a shareholder of 25% of the ID group or 20%. I don't remember any, but I paid them out completely to the penny to the cent.

46:11 But I divorced from it. Also friendship. It's so crazy you say this because I had the exact same situation. You know, it was my business partner in another company and same thing. You know, he was basically robbing the company from its money and he owned roughly 25% of the company. Cost me. For me it was much more painful because you know it was still relatively early and I didn't have the money to to take care of a lot of the problems and and financial debt that he put us in and all kinds of things. It it hurt, you know, it probably cost me two or $3,000,000 and almost put me out of business and.

46:55 It's better that it's costing you two $3,000,000 than me. You are like a cathedral. I'm just a small Chapel. You're you're the Vatican. You're the Vatican. I'm. I'm a church in the back of a Mercedes station wagon or something, you know? What I must say, it's hurting also emotionally as a human being 100%. It was me that a lot of my customers don't know and a lot of people in our industry don't know, have about 10 extremely good friends, close buddies like brothers and have about 50 friends like that.

47:44 We don't have time to make our relationship deeper. And I know, I think about 20,000 people know, knowing me. But the most important thing in life is not money. The most important thing in life is time that you spend with your family, your kids, your bloodline directly, but also with your brothers. You have friends. You have brothers. Brothers is like a deep emotion that they are ready for you always at 1:00 at night, at 3:00. If you phone them and you say to them I need you, Please come here.

48:30 I'm in this city that if they ask you why that's not a brother, that's a friend. I agree so much. Yeah, I agree so much. But the problem is Glenn. Why? They need to tell you when and where not. My problem is that I confuse those. So I confuse the 20,000 with the I forget what your next number was, but 100 or whatever it was, And then and then with the 10, you know, the 10, you really know who those are. Well, one of those 10, by the way, for me was the one who stole money from me and cost me almost my entire business, you know, So my problem is I'm so naive because at the end of the day, when this happens to me and somebody is disloyal or they steal from me or they cheat me or lie to me or whatever, I'm always surprised and I'm always disappointed, you know, very emotionally disappointed by them. And my girlfriend always says, you know, don't you get angry? And I said not really.

49:38 I get disappointed. I get sad, you know, because of those. Losing money, that's painful, but your brother that's even more painful and time something because money you can earn in life, brother. Sometimes you can make honest. I have six brothers and three kids and a fiance. Those are my 10 close people. I have six brothers, not brothers, brothers from another mother. Yeah, I understand. But losing a brother, that's for me losing time that I invested relationship together and and again time is the most pressure, precious thing in life. You cannot make time most richest people in person. In life, time is something of the most important time that you spent with people.

50:46 Your kids, your wife, your family, your brothers. Time is unique and that's a message to all of you that are listening. Don't forget time. You cannot make money you can earn, but time it's sticking away every second of your life. It will never come. Yeah, I agree with you completely. And one of the things that you should be doing in your business is creating freedom of time. You know, creating freedom of time, freedom of relationships. You know, you want your business to produce whatever it is, whether it's money or space or something that allows you to spend more time with your friends, family, your brothers, as you call it.

51:35 So yeah, I mean, that's such a deep point. Jesus, without any wine. I don't even know how to how to do all of this stuff. Let's search for a bottle. I think we should, yeah. It's a little early for me. It's 240 still, so I I should probably stay sober for a few more hours. It's somewhere in the world 6:00. So exactly, Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll blame you. So you opened, I think you opened this year in UAE, right? I opened four years ago in the in Dubai in the Middle East in Emirates. But I bought my lands, I constructed my building. I didn't did my interior because I didn't want to make a big company, but I want to make most cleanest, best organized company out there in the Middle East to help our customers achieving their goal.

52:34 So our focus is not on doing a production because we don't do a production. Our focus is on the assets. So if tomorrow you need 400 speakers on the stands in one model, I can supply that in the Middle East. So and in ultra clean condition. And so the Middle East was for me like a journey to develop my own brands and all the rest if the asteroids. So today I have from ID audio alone closely to 1200 speakers there. Wow. Damn.

53:15 And so 1200 speakers for cross rental or in sales inventory. Oh, cross rental. Wow. That's nice. We just sales also in the Middle East with our first two customers for ID Audio. They had a just applied a few days ago. Interesting. Yeah. So in and I don't understand really well, but from what I understand you have to partner with a Dubai company. Is that how it works or? Yes and no. It's to see where you open your company. If you want to open it in a freehold, you can be the only shareholder in it in its if you want to be the shopping mall for example, trying to have a local be involved in your company because it brings also all the bizarre for your.

54:11 Employment. Yeah, it just makes it cleaner and easier, yeah. So one of the things I really want to talk to you a bit about, and I'm sure you want to talk about it too, you have a little bit already. But AED Studios, which you know for me is, is really intriguing for a number of reasons. One, you were one of the early ones to go green in in a facility like this. You went very, very green and you did it very early to all LED lighting. And you can tell us more about some of the things that you did to be green. But one of the things that I'm curious about is, was that for environmental or economical reasons?

54:56 So first of all, when I talked to people in 2007 about ecology, they were looking to me like a UFO landing on the markets on the town square. So they were looking to me, what are you telling? And I told you, for me ecology will go hand in hand with ecotomy. But in 2007 and I bought my first electric car special eons in 2007 I installed my first solar panels. In 2007 I bought like 90,000 Let's fixtures, 90,000 for example on the Copenhagen top. In 2007 we supplied all the lighting in Let's but everything.

55:50 Which is interesting because I have an LED business that I founded in 2004 and I can tell you in 2007 it wasn't easy to find like good general lighting fixtures for a building like that. Like you could find color kinetics, color changing fixtures or whatever. But to find commercial grade white lighting was much more difficult. So I made my own letter. No way you did. Sticks for my warehouses because I couldn't buy something what was good. So I made them in all menu, maybe over engineered because now about 1617 years later they're all still working.

56:35 That's amazing, Yeah. Working like 13 hours a day. They're probably not very bright though, because back then they were probably 30 or 40 lumens per Watt, whereas now they're 150 or 200. 80 lumen per watts, 85 that early but the problem was heat dissipation. So today the lead tubes they are all made in plastic but at that time I was making my lead tube so like a neon like a fluorescent tube in a warehouse. I was making this in all minimum profiles with heat pasta that I can cool my leads and my drivers.

57:18 So that's why after 16 years, they are still running, yeah. That's. Very impressive. If I'm measuring today it's only giving 70 percent, 80% of but still it's working. Yeah, no, that's impressive. And I made 10,000 no 7000 or 7 or 8000 neon tubes and I installed them in all my warehouses. And at that time a neon tube of 1 meter 50 was consuming 58 watts and my LED tubes were consuming 23 watts. So if you calculate by running it 1213 hours a day for five days in a week, if you see it it's like $27.00 per LED tube times 5000. Yeah, yeah.

58:10 It's good savings. $30,000 of less electricity to to pay every year for the last 16 years. Yeah, You know, and the math on that stuff, like when I started my LED company early, early, you know, we were one of the very first LED companies here in the US and we opened up to, we had that 1.23 locations. And when it became very mainstream, we knew that we weren't supposed to be in the business anymore. When people could buy LED tubes or bulbs or fixtures in Home Depot or in Walmart or in any, then, yeah, time to get out of that business. But in the early days, you know, an LED tube, like a fluorescent tube replacement was around $100. It wasn't cheap.

59:02 You know now that same LED tube is like 3 or $4. So yeah, the the math is very good on replacing fluorescent with LED, replacing incandescent with LED, etcetera. So, but again, did you do this? I guess it sounds like it was a combination of environmental and economical reasons. I must be honest, it's a combination. So yes, I'm the kids. So what do we leave behind? A big waste of speakers and a big waste of all sewers and a big waste of old apartment buildings in Europe.

59:44 So I was very early with the mindset I want to change what I can. Maybe I cannot change our industry. I've done my best. I can change everything, what is under my hands if you understand. Was very fast into heat pumps, super isolation, electric cars, solar panels, batteries, domotica systems. I was extremely fast with that. And try to imagine, yes it was driven because I'm a daddy, but it was also driven. Again, it's way less sexy, but it was driven. Also financially wise, yes.

1:00:34 Yeah, well, it's, I mean paybacks on a building the size of like your studio, the payback could be, well, at the time it was probably 2 years payback, but now it's down like probably 4-5, six months payback on something like that. Try to imagine it's much more than only a LED tube. It's also emergency lights that I updated. I've updated the 1900 emergency lights in the studio. They are consuming in the past like in between 9 to 18 watts per hour of the emergency lights is to see which model today they are in between 1:00 to 3:00 watts.

1:01:16 Yeah, that's huge savings. 1009. 100. Try to imagine the time, the cost price, the installation hours to pay it. 9000 light fixtures, so like fluorescent or a light fixture. 9003 updated. And I've put the Multica systems in all the corridors and in the studios. For example, if you push the button, the half of the light goes on, but if you keep on pushing it for five seconds, 100% of the light goes on. Interesting.

1:02:00 The most ecologic light is the light that doesn't give light. Exactly. Well, this is the thing. Like most lighting control systems in the past for large buildings, etcetera, they started with the lights at full and they wanted to dim them. But with LED, you start with the lights off and you bring them on only when necessary. It's a very different mindset. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Very different so. Something if you see the film Studio 11 when I started with them because it was in the past, another company, I bought it 11 years ago. The occupation rate was at that time 30% occupation. Today it's above 50.

1:02:51 The electricity bill was 11 years ago, $1.3 million annually. Jesus. It's it's quite big 1.3 in dollars. Today my occupation rate is about 100% higher and the price of electricity in Europe is a little bit higher. So if I didn't do nothing, maybe my electricity bill was in, but if I see to my invoices from the year 2023, the invoice was below 200,000. Dollars.

1:03:32 Jesus, that's a huge change, very positive change. Well, and then when you look at all the the environmental things, you know that that the benefits that that's providing to the environment, that's all good too. You know, regarding the studio, I don't know how much you're involved with AI, but and I know you don't call it AI, you call it IE, right? Yes. Yeah. It's not AI, It's IE. Let's call it intelligence. Yes, artificial intelligence. So I don't, have you seen anything about this huge studio complex that Tyler Perry was building over here in the USI think in LA and he stopped construction because of AI or artificial intelligence. Have you seen anything about this? Let's say that some things I must be discreet about, but I can tell you there was a strike in America. And I think it's necessary that the strike happens because AI got the capacity to you make a picture from an artist, you put topics of the script and the AI can make the movie and at which quality?

1:05:00 Extremely high quality, extremely high quality. So try to mention them. A production like a Marvel production or a Disney, maybe it can be done at a budget divided to 100. What? But let's let's be real. You go to a film to feel something. You go to film because you know Tom Cruise from Top Gun One. So you can make it a picture from Tom Cruise and make Top Gear 4567 with artificial intelligence. Will it be great or it will be mind blowing? Yeah.

1:05:48 But. But it's not Tom Cruise. You cannot see the difference but never forget that film industry, it's all about passion. Film industry is all about humans that are getting older also Tom Cruise, but you can connect relate to them because it's human. Film industry is all about creativity. So if we let IE loose from A-Z and it will learn a little bit, yes, it can make more creative movie better movies than Eminem. But it will be becoming one color movie, because then all the people will stop making movies and their industry will disappear.

1:06:43 And in three to five or seven years, not new. New feelings, new waves, new things, because he will flatten out. Everything will be good. Everything will be the same. At one moment. It will be very good. But. A bit like technology, though. That's a bit like all technology. Like, you know, iPhones now are all so excellent. Like, I remember when iPhone one came, I was waiting in line to get iPhone 2 and iPhone 3. I don't wait in line anymore, like I have an iPhone 13 or something, not a 15 because it's not different anymore. It's basically the same shit. They're all really, really good, right? But the thing that I think is really interesting about AI movies, One of the things that I think is really interesting, and this is such a complicated topic and we're not going to solve anything today, but I wanted to talk to you because you're a smart guy.

1:07:40 But I think it's very interesting that we can see Godfather Five with Marlon Brando in it. We can see Michael Jackson make new music. Yeah, we can. We need the young Marlon Brandos. We need the Michael Jackson, the new generation. Because otherwise RE will be become. If you let IE do everything, it will be wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. And here it will stop. So it will go way faster the next three years, the movie industry or four years. And then it will stay the same, the next step. So that's something we need people, we need passion, we need real humans on the screen.

1:08:33 So it will be a hybrid model where artificial intelligence is used on images, on script writing. But we still never can forget we need the human beings, because otherwise the machines will take over. Can we stop them? You know, that's the problem. Can we stop them at this point? Like, I don't know. You know, when we were young, I think we were All Star Wars, Sun and Star Trek. And you remember you push in the wall and you have your food coming out and you push another button in the wall. And there was a component, a spare Part B print 3D and you flip over something, a communicator. That was the Motorola phone.

1:09:28 So 40 years ago, Star Trek was wow. But a lot of things has happened today already in our daily life. And you know what? We find it normal. But 40 years ago, that was mind blowing, That you open something. Did it. Yeah. Spooky beam me. Up Yeah, yeah, yeah. The wall and hoot out. So again, can we change it? No, it will happen. But with smart people we can keep human beings being involved in the film industry and being involved in the vent industry.

1:10:14 I think RE is a game changer when used properly, good. So a guy that you engage who knows IE very well, you will have people from that side, you will have people from the other side, people that don't use IE, and there will be a difference in pay grades and I can do nothing about that. That's the future. But I hope the people that are using a lot of AI that will be smart enough that they understand it's a hybrid model and don't let everything decided by IE. And I completely agree with that, that last statement that you made there, and one of the very simple examples I know people who for their website they use ChatGPT to write blogs and I can spot a ChatGPT written blog from a mile away. I could read 3 lines and say this was written by ChatGPT. I use ChatGPT to write blogs, but I I tell it very specifically what I want it to write. It might take me 10 minutes to tell it what I want it to write and how I want it to write it, and who the audience is and how it needs to be output what language I want it in and then I will read it and I'll change it.

1:11:41 Even after that I'll I'll edit it a whole bunch. So instead of the blog taking me 3 hours to write, it might take me one hour to write and it just writes the boring stuff for me really. And that's what I'm telling it must stay a hybrid model. Don't give everything to AI, it must be hybrid. And I hope this side of the human beings that are using in the future more and more AI are smart enough to use it as a hybrid model. Well, the other thing that's going to happen Glenn, is, is the consumer will penalize for AI. So again, using the same blog example, Google will give you as a as a web developer or a company.

1:12:31 Google will give you better search engine optimization for a personally written blog and it will penalize you for a ChatGPT or an AI written blog. And Google looks for AI written blogs and it'll it basically gives you a penalty for that. And so it's already happening and I think in the movie industry you're going to pay, you know, $2.00 or $5 for a ticket to go see an AI movie or $20 to go see a a human movie. OK. Let's make it now a little bit more challenging. If you go to restaurants and you're visiting 10 restaurants, are you always 10 or 10 times happy with the surface? Yes or no?

1:13:18 No, Never. So try to imagine there will be human, not the face of a human, but the ergonomics like fingers and and sensing. Like the Tesla, like the BW robot that will hit the market in between 25,000 and $55,000. And it will have a battery pack in between 300 watts and 1000 watts or even an extended range 4000 watts if you know that a superhuman being got a capacity of 500 watts but not full time. And let's see that the machine is not so efficient. So you will have a superhuman that can run like the fastest human that will consume 800 Watt.

1:14:06 Got the battery pack of 4000 Watt? That's like 40 * a kilo and a half. Try to imagine this. You will be served perfect on time, perfect position of your fork and knife, perfect your napkin. Would you be rather served averagely or perfectly by a robot? Robot. I know that's the wrong answer, but I would rather have perfect from the robot because for me, when it comes to simple life, things like if something could bring me my car every morning and it's always brought up in the same spot and it's always at the same temperature.

1:14:54 Clean. Clean, yeah. Because he wakes up. He's always awake. Yeah, it does your garden. It's like 24 hour 24 hour home slave. I think what we're saying Glenn is the same thing. Like basically AI should support humans, not replace humans. AI should augment humans, not replace humans. And this is how I use it. I want to be served, maybe by a robot, but I want to be welcomed by human being. Yeah, so I advantage of perfectness, but I want also the advantage of being served by humans. So here's.

1:15:42 Here's another little add on to that. I want my food cooked by a human chef because the nuances in how a chef might make it today versus last week, even if I ordered the same meal, I don't want it exactly the same necessarily, right? Unless you're going to a fast food restaurant like a Big Mac at McDonald's should taste the same at every McDonald's. But. I I I think I'm not on the same page. And you. I want my food made by computer and I won't if I have a surgery done on my heart. Or on my that I want done by AI. Oh. No mistakes, no mistakes there. Six months or in a year?

1:16:27 What 1000 doctors has learned in 50 years and. You're right. But here's the difference. We're getting to a really cool philosophical place here. So with the the robot doing your healthcare, your surgery, etcetera, you want nothing. No variables whatsoever, No variations. You want it? Absolutely. With food, with art, with lighting, with sound. Even sound engineers have different, different ways of doing things, so they're slight little nuances. And so for me these are human functions, whereas maybe some of the programming of the lighting console, some at least the most boring mundane things could be done by AI. But the actual running of the show should be done by a human, because if the drummer plays a little faster or a little slower or something happens like that, you want the human to adjust for that, not an AI.

1:17:27 So coming back from the cook, I want robot cutting my food. I want robot preparing everything hybrid. Model. And the last thing I want to cook doing. Exactly the magic? Exactly, no. Again, I'm talking hybrid. So I believe very strongly in the hybrid model and I know there are people watching this or listen to this and say, oh, I don't want the robot doing surgery on me. I can tell you if you have an eye, surgery be done. I hope it's a robot, because he doesn't shake and he will take out your lens on a precision of A50 or 100th of a millimeter, and no human being can do that with his hand.

1:18:22 Well, there is. AI think it's yeah a a very good friend of mine in our industry and I won't mention his name, but he had life saving cancer surgery I believe it was prostate, a very, very new thing that they do, but it's done by a robot and it's a a brand new robotic surgery that's done and saved his life and you know 10 years ago he probably would have died from from this cancer. So yeah, have you seen just finally to get off of this AI conversation, But have you seen Sora the? Movie.

1:19:05 Sora is a it's an AI that's made for for generating movies. Just when you get a chance, Google Sora and there's a few short films that they've made. You won't believe your eyes, what you're looking at, It's just crazy, the stuff they're creating with it. At least they are investing their their self in making a platform to generate movies and they are extremely far with that. I saw it on the movie festival in Sharjah. It's it's a new business for them.

1:19:46 It's it's a big thing about creativity and photography and now there's a big part already, filament television, and it's mind blowing how far they are today with it. Yeah, with everything. So I want you to take just a few minutes because I can't keep you much longer because your family's waiting for you with a big bottle of wine. But tell me about two things. One AED growth plans for for this year and beyond, but also a lot of your, I know you've created some house brands, your own AED product lines, AED audio I believe it's called is it next trussing.

1:20:30 Yes. And Luxi Bell I know is at least one of your lighting lines. I don't know if you have other ones, but you know, give me some idea of where that's all going and tell me a little bit about those brands. So first of all, the ID of my first speaker was coming from the UK when I opened IDUKI visit the gods of audio. So the Britannia Rose, the WIC 1, the Antex and those are the gods of live productions. And I was shocked as the eyes.

1:21:14 I was shocked to see how many different speakers a rental house got in their inventory. And the record that I saw was 43 different models to reproduce full range audio 43 models. A box like this, a box like that, a box like that a box. And at that time it was 2006, Seven. I I had a dream to develop because I started in 1982 developing speakers and I sold maybe many thousand speakers in Europe. And I stopped in the end of the 80s with manufacturing, because all the manufacturers were making beautiful, affordable speakers.

1:22:04 And why did I start back? Because all the manufacturers were making a lot of beautiful speakers, so you need to buy 100 of model R-100 of model B100 of C and I had a dream. Can I not build a speaker that can replace all the fatalities of of 1020 different speakers by 1 box? That was my vision or my mission statement? Developing a unit that can replace everything, not to replace everything because in our industry you have people passionate about Meyer Sound or about Adam Stone or about DMV or about L acoustic. Please be passionate about them.

1:22:58 But if you have 20 other models in your warehouse from B brands, you can replace those 20 models by 1 unit idea audio and with the sound quality that is up to you to decide. I will do a demo to any of your audience. Listen, they contact with me, there will be mind blowing away of the output and of the sound capital. But again, it's not competitive top four brands, it's an addition not to invest in 5/10/15 other speaker models. By having one box you can do everything.

1:23:38 So that was my mission statement in 2006 and seven and I was giving myself a budget of R&D of €500,000, so $600,000 and I was giving myself two years time, wow, I didn't, I didn't succeed. I owe everything times 5-6. Oh my God, that's crazy. It has taken me 12 and I was quite, almost daily involved with it, but I succeeded in something what I'm extremely proud of, a flexible speaker. What is sounding amazing and what is doing an amazing pressure output versus size.

1:24:35 But you put two together, you put two lows together of this and it's got capacity of the biggest box in the world. I'm not telling a name but so but you can use it as a standalone with two mic inputs. So that's our IDEA Audio. By doing Idea Audio well, I launched it to the market and then was Corona. So when? Production. I stopped production. I restarted production in 2022 and in 2022 and 2023. Just until now, we sold closely to 5000 boxes.

1:25:17 Wow. That's how the audio I made also a budget speaker because not everybody got a budget of a brand. Sometimes you need like AQ CK3 speakers. So I make speakers also very flexible, but it's called the Multi 12 and the Multi Sip, then Luxy Bell, Luxy Bell. I'm not here to design the moving ads because the moving ad is the flavor of the day and tomorrow it's another flavor and the day after it's another flavor. So. But I'm here to design high quality light fixture who delivers light? Is it for a car show, a trade show, A theater? A front light of a festival?

1:26:05 This is what I'm doing, like L and soft lights in ultra high quality and I have those with thousands and thousands in my rental inventory. Stage lift, that's my brand of motors. And in stage lift we designed the motor made in Europe. It's not a Chinese motor with one of the top three manufacturers in the world. I had some things that I would love to have like handles above the motors and handles below the motor automatically you hang it upside down the motor that the chain bag flip over without losing time. So simple stuff Teflon sides that if you have scratches on it that it stays a dark color of the motor and not you see the iron or the aluminium.

1:27:05 So designing my own motor I saw it's now 1 1/2 years on the market and I sold already about 3000 hoists. Wow, so hoping to hit this year, the mark of 3000 manufacturers motors this year and I'm hoping to ramp up next year the production capacity. Wow, that's impressive. It's better than the D8 plus motor, the the highest level of safety and I think worldwide the new sunlight double brake safety factor one on 8 coming only I do it in black chains chains and I have it in stock. Same idea audio I have today around it's flipping in between 1000 to 3000 boxes any day of the year in stock, so that's also unique that I can supply from stock. And the AED audio, so it's a line array package. Your your main system is a line array. And are you also doing the amplification or do you just have a deal with power soft or one of the other? We design everything.

1:28:19 The amplifier model power soft is making everything so like an iron plate box. I buy from Pascal. That's the biggest one of the biggest components builders in the world of highest. It's the highest grade for me. I buy the model from Pascal, I buy clock ships from Motorola, I buy screens from Sony. So it's coming from everywhere in the world. Assembly here in Belgium, My wood is made in also a company that we acquired in Portugal. My iron is made in Spain. So yeah, the Pascal is from Denmark, the components, So it's built and designed in Belgium.

1:29:07 So coming back, so brand #4, that's next. So I was the biggest customer of Pearl Light in the world. There are a lot of products that was coming from our IDs at Pearlite. Pearlite went bankrupt when I went out with money of the company so I wasn't involved. A few years later it was bankrupt and I tried to buy the name, but there was something happened that I didn't bought it and I started the next the next big standards.

1:29:49 So today next is made in Netherlands, not in Czechoslovakia or in China or somewhere else, right? And I bought also one of the big manufacturers in Europe, it's called Intel, they are based in Netherlands, Fenray. I bought the company and they had a very big rental inventory. This was made to the standards of ID and then Intel is renamed now to Next. So Next was a commercial name. Intel was actually Now everything is next.

1:30:29 And now we were like 10 years ago the first company with robot welding, the first in the world. Now we are developing a robot line but from A-Z, from cutting to put on the Euro palette by robots and I hope this is operational in 30 months and this will our production capacity to. Follow Wow, that's amazing. That's a lot. It's one more than competitive Pro Light, but everything we updated it. For example, AB100 Truss, the megatruss at Pro Light. The wheels are connected fixed to the Truss at our place with the pin you take away.

1:31:19 That's smart. Yeah, that's very smart. Compatible. So I try to be we are 100% compatible and I try to advance the product by being compatible and standard, but still improvements without people knowing it. Very interesting. So cool. Well, Glenn, I appreciate you doing this. Thank you so much. It's always fun to talk to you. I think we have to do it sooner this time, not five years later or whatever. Plus, we're both getting older, so we have to hurry up, you know? Oh, you don't get older.

1:32:02 No. We people in our minds and I hope we stay young in our minds. Getting older. He's telling all the new iPhone is bad or the young guys are wrong. For me, the future is in young people and I hope I'm in the team of the young people and I'm not in the team of the old people. If you see creativity, the best songs of the simple minds or for Madonna, the best songs were coming when they were 20 years young. Yeah, it's true. And still today they are playing those same songs I was a few months ago, a year ago. It's a Madonna show.

1:32:50 Wow. But all that I know and everybody was shouting and singing with them, were like a virgin and all stuff. So he is from the youngest generation. So I believe strongly also in a hybrid model where the young generation gives creativity and we as not older people but as experienced people, help them directing their positive energy, their positive mindsets, their creativity in a better common future.