#235 - Matthias Hinrichs

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Well, hello there and thanks for
joining me today on a Beautiful

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Wednesday for episode #235.
Today is going to be a great

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episode and I'm really looking
forward to it and I hope you

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enjoy it as well.
Today's podcast is brought to

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you by our newest sponsor.
I feel like I'm saying that

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every week right now, but RZI
Lighting.

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Welcome to RZI, your one stop
shop for all your lighting needs

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and more.
RZI offers hassle free rentals,

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sales and labor services
providing everything from

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staging to special effects for
your productions with the

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RZI also offer top notch service
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Visit rzilighting.com and this

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podcast is also brought to you
by AVL Media Group.

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AVL Media Group, your premier
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Visit avlmediagroup.com

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the
hello again.

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And once again today is episode
#235.

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I'm pumped.
Love the guy who's coming on

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today, really a big fan of his
and I think many of you will

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know him as well and I'll get on
to that in just a second.

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I don't have much to talk about
today.

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You know, I've been talking to a
lot of people since Pro Light

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about just some of the new
fixtures and new products that

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came out at that show.
You know Martin with the Viper I

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elation had some pretty exciting
new stuff.

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Of course the big announcement
from ACT, another one of our

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sponsors who has purchased Amber
Ambersphere in in the UK, that's

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big news and I'm actually
working on getting Ben on to

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talk about that a little bit,
Ben from ACT to just talk about

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what their plans are in the UK,
what they're doing over there.

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So yeah, I mean I don't really
have much today.

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Our new newsletter, I don't know
if anyone has received it.

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Hopefully you have.
If you haven't, Sarah's working

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diligently to try and figure out
how to get people signed up to

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it or how to allow you to sign
up for our new newsletter.

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I don't know how to do it, but
she's working on that.

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You can get with Sarah, Producer
at piecesofgear.com and we'll be

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sure to get it to you.
It really is announcing new

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guests who are coming up.
It's announcing ones that just

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passed.
It might include some new news

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on any of our sponsors or on
what we're up to.

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But you know, it's it's a
newsletter.

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It's it's just sort of timely
information.

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I don't know even what the
frequency is.

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I think it's once a month, if I
am remembering that correctly,

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but there's a chance that I'm
not.

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So the other thing is again, our
newest sponsor who is RZI

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Lighting.
I've known Ray Ziegler at RZI

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for a long time.
I'm very appreciative having Ray

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on board as a sponsor.
He's done an incredible job

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building a business there in
probably not the easiest market

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in the country, New Orleans.
It's it's a very unique and very

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special market and one that
Ray's name and RZI have become

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synonymous with that local
market.

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I've spoken a lot recently with
Ray about just, you know the

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impact of of COVID when he was
going through the whole COVID

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thing. him and I talked a lot
just about, you know, survival

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and what that looked like and
what the future might look like

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and and like most conversations
we were probably dead wrong.

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But I enjoyed all of those
conversations.

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So I'm super happy to have Ray
and Rzi on board and again, very

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grateful.
Thank you Ray and thank you to

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RZI for sponsoring our podcast.
Thank you to all of our

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sponsors.
You know, again it's we're not

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trying to get rich.
We're just trying to have a

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great, great product, offer a
good podcast, have some good

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conversations and not have to
pay for it ourselves basically.

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So we're quite grateful and and
happy to keep going forward

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with, I would guess the
industry's leading this type of

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podcast anyways.
So we're proud, we're happy,

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we're excited and looking
forward to the future.

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So two Days guest is Matthias
Henrichs.

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Matthias is a product designer
and innovator specializing in

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the Obsidian control systems for
Elation Professional.

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Matthias has a focus on user
experience, usability and

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workflows to make complicated
tasks easy and fun for the user.

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As a product manager for
lighting control systems, he was

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tasked to analyze the creative
process of lighting and visual

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design so it can be programmed
into computer systems fast and

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efficiently.
The challenge of managing 10s of

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thousands of control parameters
in an easy to understand

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workflow is challenging but fun
to solve as the final result is

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so stunning and inspiring.
There is of course more to life

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than work where Matthias and his
wife have a big heart for animal

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welfare and volunteering in the
local Humane Society to help

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animals in need of Foster and
care.

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So there's so much more.
His bio was about this long and

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I shortened it, but I'd rather
just go ahead and talk directly

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with Matthias.
So let's bring Matthias on the

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podcast now.
Matthias.

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Hey, Marcel.
Hey, what's happening, you know?

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Well, we've tried for a long
time to to do this.

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I'm glad to be here.
You know, I've had some really

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big people on here and it only
took me usually a couple of

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weeks to get them booked.
You.

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It's taken me Friggin.
I don't know, three months or

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something.
Like persistence.

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It's been.
I've been persistent.

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And this time, actually, it
wasn't even me who got you.

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It was Sarah.
So I think that's what it was.

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I had to get a a woman to go out
and pursue you because you

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couldn't say no.
There was a lot of prodding from

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Eric Lona as well.
Really got to do this.

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Yeah, that helps.
That helps.

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You know what I mean?
I'm glad you finally did either

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decide or get forced into doing
this because you're, you know,

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without blowing smoke up your
dress Here you're you're a very

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interesting guy with a very
interesting background and a

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very interesting job.
And I've been wanting to, I've

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been wanting to have this
conversation so for a long time.

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So I'm glad you.
You're able to make the time

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completely voluntarily.
Yeah, well, you know what?

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Take the whole day off.
Tell Eric that you know in

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preparation.
And plus, the podcast was quite

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long and you know, so.
I'm actually going to see George

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Masek tonight at Oh yeah, he's
in town.

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So this will be, we're going to
be talking about you, I think.

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I like George.
George is a good dude.

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He's he was on the podcast and
we had we had fun.

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So yeah.
So pro light, you, I think you

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were probably there considering
that's your home nation, I

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believe.
Yeah, Mitch, been kind of

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traveling quite a bit the last
few months.

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There's been a lot of trade
shows back-to-back.

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Like the whole trade show
calendar is kind of really

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mangled up ever since.
COVID things are not quite where

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they used to be.
Yeah, many things on top of each

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other.
Yeah, well, plus ISE becoming as

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big as it is now has become such
an important show.

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So you know, Pro Light I think
used to be sort of the start of

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the trade show season and now
it's, you know, you're deep into

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it by the time you get to Pro
Light.

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Correct.
And it's changing a lot with the

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music.
Massive part, which was like the

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music instruments and sheet
music and all this.

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That part is all gone.
So now it's really mostly Pro

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Light and there's very little
sound.

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Now we can really mention the
sound part.

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It's tinier.
Yeah, I mean, So what do you

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think?
Like do you think it it's gonna

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survive?
Do you think it needs to

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survive?
I know it's probably a difficult

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conversation to have, especially
because you're German.

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But you know it's always been
such an important show.

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And I I just, it seems to me
just listening to people outside

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the like consumers who would go
to that trade show, it seems to

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be less and less important.
It has shifted because

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distribution models of many
companies have shifted.

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So seems like ISE is really
where most of the people that

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make purchasing decisions and
distributors and like.

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Yeah.
That kind of crowd goes because

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there's a lot of different
brands that they can meet and

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interact with.
And maybe Frank would be more

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like a creative type of show,
more like designers and

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creatives rather than, you know,
purchases.

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We'll see.
Is that, is that sort of what

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you what you felt this year?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's kind of how it felt a
little bit.

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So what?
What city in Germany are?

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You from coming back where
people put up, you know, like an

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actual, I mean, that's less
corporate maybe than that's.

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Yeah, Hey, come out, you know,
hang out, have a chat, see what

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we do.
Yeah, Well, the thing I heard

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was that the big companies, you
guys robe, most of those booths

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were quite big and quite busy.
And then some companies, well,

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even some of the big companies,
your former employer, my former

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employer, they were quite small,
like very, very small

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considering the size of the
product launch that they had at

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the show, the Viper being such a
huge product for them with such

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a successful history and now
they've got the LED Viper, you

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would think they were going to
go big.

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But you know sadly I think
Martin is still just sort of a a

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pimple on Samsung's butt right
now.

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You know, it's like, I don't
even think if you asked the CEO

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what industry is Martin lighting
in, he'd he'd be like, I have no

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idea Martin who you know, so.
That could be correct.

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Yeah.
Well, I mean you're talking

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about whatever it is, a trillion
dollar company or something.

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I don't know that, you know, a
couple $100 million moving light

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brand is going to mean much to
them.

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So who knows?
Means a lot to Martin employees,

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I guess, you know, and some of
us who were a big part of their

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history.
Yeah, it meant a lot to me

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still.
I mean, me as well.

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Yeah, you always bleed it a
little yellow.

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Of course.
The company just always stays

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with you.
And I have a lot of friends

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still there.
Yeah, game at these shows.

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I mean, they've been on a good
trajectory lately.

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So that's, yeah, got their
footing.

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Yeah, a couple.
Of they've done some really nice

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stuff, so.
Yeah, a couple.

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Of.
So, yeah, a couple of really

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nice launches like they.
I'd actually love to get your

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opinion on this too because you
know, I got Eric's opinion and

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and his and mine were a little
different, but you know the the

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Mac one, which I thought was a
brilliant move when everybody's

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going bigger and brighter and
more intense and more, you know

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stadium esque and all of that
stuff.

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The, you know, Estera is one
company that's done really,

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really well with the sort of
small eye candy kind of stuff.

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And so I thought the Mac One was
a was a pretty brilliant product

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to come up.
Come out with under $2000,

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dealer cost under 10 lbs.
Packaged very nicely with the

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accessories.
Yeah, thought it was.

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A really good move to do that,
yeah.

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I was part of the original One O
1 launch.

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Yeah.
With also like, hey, as a small

227
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:34,360
fixture, we built some like line
array grits at Plaza to show off

228
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,200
what we can do with that and
yeah.

229
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,400
Yeah, and that thing took off
like.

230
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,960
Collection to do this.
I like the way the mechanical

231
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,200
system, how you can click them
together and you're just like

232
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,880
mounting frames.
Yeah, thought out.

233
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,000
Yeah, that's the whole thing.
Like the whole packaging part of

234
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,520
it all is, is what made so much
sense to me as well, not just

235
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,800
the fact that it's a small
fixture and it's bright enough

236
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,040
to do a lot of cool things with
it, so.

237
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,440
Several of those picture types
recently like that are really

238
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,320
good for arrays and grits.
Yeah, I think people like to

239
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,280
hang a lot of fixtures if they
can, but they're kind of a big

240
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,360
pain in the ass to rig up and
wire and.

241
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,760
Yeah, yeah.
Interconnect and so let's so.

242
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,720
I'm sure you're.
I'm sure you're designing

243
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,640
something in your brain as as
well we.

244
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,080
Want blinder type product which.
Is, Yeah, I saw that.

245
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,840
Together, the soul line which my
colleague Bob's been sort of

246
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,760
focused on, so.
I was gonna ask you about that

247
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,800
too.
Elements to put together.

248
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,600
I think people really like that.
I was going to ask you about

249
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,840
that that product because I
think it's really cool.

250
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:46,240
But I remember probably 10 years
ago there was a product which

251
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,960
was a small company and I don't
even remember the exact name of

252
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,200
the company, but it was owned by
David Lavinia.

253
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,640
And I think he's he had a patent
for these things that went

254
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,160
together in this sort of
honeycomb frame or shape and and

255
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,920
became like clusters and he had
some kind of IP on it.

256
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,560
And I don't know who or whether
the IP still exists or anything,

257
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,440
but I was gonna ask if if that
was something that was looked

258
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,280
at.
That one I'm not aware of.

259
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,080
Yeah, we don't interconnect the
fixtures directly, so there's

260
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,680
actually like a.
That's probably, yeah.

261
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,080
So which?
It wouldn't even apply then.

262
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,720
Kind of reminds me of, you know,
it's like this old light organs

263
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,160
that you can click together and
you have this little controller

264
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,840
with like, yeah, high, mid, low
and some volume adjustment and

265
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,600
you have these like little, you
know, bulbs just flashing around

266
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,040
your basement, I mean.
Yeah, yeah.

267
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,640
Yeah, many more.
Like, hey, I can build all this

268
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:52,200
like cool wall.
Also on the small stuff, I

269
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,040
didn't see it cuz I wasn't at
Pro Light but I saw Ayrton had I

270
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,920
think the same body or a very
similar body to their old magic

271
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:05,720
dot with now a a laser source in
it and I can't for the life from

272
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,000
you remember the name.
It's such a wacky name, but.

273
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,120
Kalami Kalami or something.
Yeah, yeah, no idea.

274
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,120
You know, as soon as they got
away from the Lamborghini names

275
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,840
and stuff, I don't remember them
anymore.

276
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,200
Remarkable.
Actually Paki had a picture

277
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,640
there as well that is meant to
click together where you can

278
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,040
take the handles off or put them
sideways and then you turn the

279
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,200
pan off and then it just tilts
that was.

280
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,880
Also, that's interesting.
A picture so.

281
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,480
That's an interesting concept.
More and more of this, and I

282
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,120
think designers really like them
because.

283
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,640
Yeah, well, it's something
different.

284
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,560
It's something that you can make
each one look different than the

285
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,080
previous one, even if you're
using the same fixtures or

286
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,280
whatever.
You know, it's funny.

287
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,320
I know you probably know Fausto,
right?

288
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:54,400
I do.
Yeah.

289
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,440
Quite spend quite a bit of time
with them.

290
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,480
Yeah, so Fausto, I was talking
with him after after Pro Light,

291
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,240
and I said, So what was
remarkable?

292
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,560
And he said nothing.
You know, he he's very bored of

293
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,040
of the progress, I guess right
now of technology.

294
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,440
And he just, he thinks.
And I I'm not putting him down

295
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,400
by any stretch, 'cause he's one
of my favorite people.

296
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,960
I love the guy.
We're very good friends.

297
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,400
But he thinks that every
technology leap needs to be, you

298
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,599
know, a great leap.
I think sometimes, and I look at

299
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,320
the more incremental things
sometimes, you know, it's not

300
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,800
just the number of gobos or the
number of colors or whatever,

301
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,760
but it's it's finding a unique
niche in the market where you're

302
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,280
fitting, you're hitting an
application maybe that another

303
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:41,960
product didn't hit, like the Mac
one.

304
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,800
There's nothing incredible about
it.

305
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,640
It's just it's a cool little
package.

306
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,560
It's got great applications that
it'll hit.

307
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,360
You know, I could think of if I
had a small lighting company and

308
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,880
I serviced the convention
business, for example, trade

309
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,000
shows and stuff, you know, you'd
be putting a dozen of those on

310
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,640
every single booth, Why wouldn't
you?

311
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:08,040
And you know, to me the only
thing that's missing is, is it

312
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,120
needs to be battery and it, it
needs to be completely wireless,

313
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,000
you know, And if we can get to
that point, then we've got a

314
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,760
very useful little fixture.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, look at

315
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,840
the car industry.
You know, there's not a car

316
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,920
where the steering wheels on the
on the back, like it's all

317
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,120
evolutionary.
Even Tesla on the outside looks

318
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,000
kind of like a car.
Yeah.

319
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,640
Very nice.
And the inside has changed a lot

320
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,360
and the UI has changed a lot.
But ultimately it's four wheels

321
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,440
in the steering wheel and you
sit in the front and move the

322
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,880
thing around.
But it's a bad example because

323
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,200
you know his a pickup truck
doesn't look like a pickup truck

324
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,920
at all, you know?
It's four wheels and a steering

325
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,440
wheel and it.
Does it?

326
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:51,560
Does.
You're right.

327
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,840
Yeah.
Evolutionary people are quite

328
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,320
turned off if you change stuff
too much that they used to.

329
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,360
So as much as we maybe also want
to change something, you know,

330
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,760
if you build a lighting console
with no command line and no more

331
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,480
buttons, they may not, you know.
It's successful well.

332
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,280
People may push back and say,
well, we need those.

333
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,680
We like those.
You're right.

334
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,640
Yeah, your.
Workflow revolves that way.

335
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,600
Well, lighting consoles I think
are a very interesting example

336
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,160
of that, or a very unique
example of that, potentially.

337
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,280
Because look what happened when
the MA Three came out and

338
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,040
suddenly the syntax was
different and the sort of muscle

339
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,960
memory was different.
People were so used to because

340
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,880
of the amount of command lines
and things that you're entering,

341
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,600
They're so used to hit this
button twice, go over, hit this

342
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,840
one once and boom, everything
happens.

343
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520
And now you hit this one once,
then this one twice, and then

344
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,040
this one up here.
And it's like they have to stop

345
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,640
themselves and they have to
relearn a new language,

346
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,640
basically.
So you're still speaking a

347
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,520
language, but it's a different,
it's a slightly different

348
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,960
language with some new vowels or
something, right.

349
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,920
And.
Interfere with people's

350
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,080
workflows, yeah.
Hurdle and that's Adobe, you

351
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,000
know, or like After Effects,
whatever this these kind of

352
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,400
software then do they do any
major changes?

353
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,200
There's so much push back in it
from the sort of creators

354
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,360
because their livelihood depends
on them, them, you know?

355
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,160
Yeah.
Well, again, I would think that,

356
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,360
you know, and you've probably
learned this as well as anyone.

357
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:26,360
I would think that in controls
it's bigger than than pretty

358
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,320
much anything else.
Because literally, you know

359
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:34,400
you're learning an entire like
this is everything for you right

360
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,280
here.
How you're programming those

361
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:42,440
lights to do whatever they're
doing and the actions and syntax

362
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,760
and everything else becomes very
accustomed to you.

363
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,080
And when that all gets changed,
it's quite problematic.

364
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,320
Compulite tried this a few years
ago, maybe about 10 years by

365
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,160
now, with when they call it Vibe
back then.

366
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,960
And there was a desk that was
just a really big screen and

367
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,520
nothing else.
And everybody's like, oh whoa,

368
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,520
wait a minute, like, where is my
and where is this?

369
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,040
And where is my?
The basic was just a big screen,

370
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,800
some faders and some encoders
and everything was kind of

371
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,160
virtualized.
Yeah, it's interesting.

372
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,600
Probably 20 years ahead of where
there's going to go eventually.

373
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,120
People's acceptance of, let's
say, touchscreen interfaces and

374
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,640
haptics is all changing.
There's a whole new generation

375
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,960
of professionals really growing
up that come from a totally

376
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,520
different mindset.
So it'll get there, I think

377
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,760
eventually.
But some elements are always

378
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,600
going to be needed to control
something, even on the car.

379
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,520
Like they're pulling back now
and say, you know, there should

380
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,720
actually be some buttons for
some of these things because

381
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,360
it's just too much touchscreen.
Well, I drive a BMW and BMW has

382
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,680
always messed with this.
I drive system and it just

383
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,520
drives you crazy because at this
at some point it's like stop

384
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,880
making me scroll through things
like just give me a damn button

385
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,480
will you?
You know, they tried to make

386
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,560
this one knob do 50,000 things
and it's just no fun at all when

387
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,600
you're trying to drive your car,
you know?

388
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,320
So I don't know.
And wasn't there a, what was

389
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,880
that console company?
I think they were from Australia

390
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,000
or something, and I'm sure it's
still out there.

391
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,400
They were Vista, Vista, Vista.
Yeah, they went a whole

392
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,960
different.
Moved over to my old colleague

393
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,160
Paul Pelletier is now sort of
that's part of the Chroma Q

394
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:26,360
product.
Name.

395
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,800
Yes, Yeah, because I know.
Different mindset, linear

396
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,800
editing, sort of like.
Exactly, yeah.

397
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,200
Video crowds because they're
like, hey, this looks like what

398
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,160
I'm used to when I edit my video
streams.

399
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,280
Yeah.
I really liked it and it worked

400
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,040
well for them and still dust and
still very popular.

401
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,720
Yeah, yeah.
Again, though, it's just, you

402
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,960
know, you're trying to get
people to learn a new language,

403
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,960
and sometimes it's best to just
speak whatever language they

404
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,800
want to speak, you know?
But I mean the the console that

405
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,480
you were just talking about, the
compulite console without any

406
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,120
physical buttons or switches or
whatever.

407
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,080
You know, it's funny because
Steve Jobs got away with that

408
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,280
when when everyone said that he
wouldn't.

409
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,200
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean that's.

410
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,840
A really fun movie on
BlackBerry, on Netflix I love.

411
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,680
It.
I love it.

412
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,320
Exactly.
You watch this and they're like,

413
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,600
well, what?
What do you mean?

414
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,760
Who wants phone without keys?
For real?

415
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600
Don't we ever buy it?
And that was a very major

416
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,480
paradigm shift, just like Foster
would like to have.

417
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,680
Massive.
Completely breaks.

418
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,680
Massive.
That's like a once in a

419
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,400
generation thing.
Of course it is.

420
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,680
It's.
Really hard to pull off.

421
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,480
Well, it's like my friends up in
Canada right now who are from my

422
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,000
hometown, Calgary, Canada, PK
Sound.

423
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,680
And I don't know if you've seen
this yet, but they have a line

424
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,040
array system that's got motors.
And so if if you do all your

425
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,520
numbers and everything's
designed and everything and the

426
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,400
rig goes up and suddenly there's
a wall where it wasn't supposed

427
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,080
to be, or they've opened up
three more rows in front of the

428
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,920
stage and you need, you're
missing some sound right in

429
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,960
front of the stage or whatever,
You can just redirect the rig.

430
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,120
You don't have to drop it.
You can just kind of move some

431
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:13,280
speakers and stuff in the air
using, you know, some some

432
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,360
science.
There's actually some of the

433
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,040
initial discussions we had when
Martin got purchased by Harman

434
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,360
because you know, hey, there's a
company that knows motor

435
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:25,040
controls and like precision
mechanics really well and he was

436
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,640
a speaker company, it was line
array.

437
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,880
So with the convergence here,
can we build speakers that move

438
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,840
and that are automated like and
the horns tweak around and you

439
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,360
know some software that measures
it all.

440
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,000
So there was actually
discussions like that.

441
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,000
I'll tell you what, Matthias
when I when I was invited to go

442
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,680
into their showroom in Calgary
and see it last summer, it's one

443
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,720
of those moments, like the first
time I saw a moving light, I was

444
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,760
just like, whoa, you know, why
would anybody want a light that

445
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,640
doesn't move anymore?
When when you've got this, you

446
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,200
know, it just doesn't make any
sense.

447
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,440
But you know, like, I had an
Austrian guy, Thomas, on the

448
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,440
podcast a couple of weeks ago.
He's the front of house engineer

449
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,120
for Sarah.
What's the name of the band?

450
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:11,880
Pop in on your microphone here.
Tell me.

451
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,960
I forget the name of the band.
What's it called?

452
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,920
Come on, Sarah, maybe you can't
because I'm recording and I got

453
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,320
to assign you.
Wait, I got it.

454
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:23,200
I got it.
There.

455
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,240
You can now.
Now you can turn your mic on.

456
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,040
Still, no.
OK, whatever.

457
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,520
I forget what they're called.
But anyways, he's, you know,

458
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,920
just very, very good, very
technical sound engineer.

459
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,280
And he said, you know, it's
remarkable how rarely you would

460
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,120
need to use something like that.
Like it's cool, it's a great

461
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:48,560
gadget, it's a gimmick, but it
it's remarkable how unnecessary

462
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,160
that it really is.
Like he said, in fact I can't

463
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,160
really think of an application
where I would need to move the

464
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,800
rig once it's in the air.
So OK, so maybe.

465
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,240
A lot of costs to carry in every
box that you may never utilize.

466
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,640
Cost and weight.
Lots of point of failures, so

467
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,360
there's a lot of things to.
Yeah, it's it's cost and and

468
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,040
weight is the big one that, he
said.

469
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,480
But she's trying to hold a sign
up.

470
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,680
Oh, in flames.
That's what they're called.

471
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,720
They're a German metal band.
Told I'm not into German metal.

472
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,000
Actually, no, they're not
German.

473
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,800
She's shaking her finger.
They're Swedish.

474
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,720
I just remembered they're a
Swedish metal bands.

475
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,480
Called Navy, it's about the
craziest metal bands.

476
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,920
Yeah, these guys are heavy.
These guys are one of those

477
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,960
bands that go like.
La La La La la.

478
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,920
You know, it's like that, that
crazy, crazy metal stuff that,

479
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,560
you know, the music is
incredible.

480
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,240
I'm not so much into the quote
singing.

481
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,360
Some of those make it on
Eurovision sometimes as, yeah,

482
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,680
performers and you're like, what
the what?

483
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,280
OK, somebody must like it.
They made it here.

484
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,160
You know, there was one on on
America's Got Talent a a few

485
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,000
years ago.
It was probably a 10 year old

486
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,720
girl with like little pigtails
and the cutest little girl,

487
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,600
right.
And she's singing this song.

488
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,120
She's got a lollipop and you
know, she's like.

489
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,480
La La La La la.
And then all of a sudden she

490
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,440
starts going, you know the whole
yelling thing, right?

491
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,520
And everybody just went, what
the hell just happened here, you

492
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:23,240
know?
Yeah.

493
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,920
So it's quite funny.
So how did you get into this

494
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:34,440
crazy industry of ours?
You know, again, like, I think

495
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,880
you're probably a little bit
younger than me, but not that

496
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,800
much, I'm guessing.
I don't even know you don't

497
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,600
have.
To wondering if anyone prepped

498
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,640
for this.
I'm like am IA geezer already.

499
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,160
What's like, you know, where's
the cutoff?

500
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,800
Yeah, Eric Loader says. 9 or
maybe 50.

501
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,800
Years of Yeah.
So you're a lot younger than me,

502
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,360
yeah?
Eric Loder says it's 50.

503
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,600
Eric says you got to be 50 to be
a geezer.

504
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,040
So.
It's my pre interview to to join

505
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,520
the.
Geezer Well, we could just hold

506
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,840
the we could hold the episode
until your birthday if you'd

507
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
like.
But Eric recorded it on his 50th

508
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,000
birthday, which was quite funny.
Yeah, so.

509
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,360
But you know, the older guys in
our industry, a lot of them had

510
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:18,360
no background whatsoever.
They had no training.

511
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,320
They didn't go in any kind of
theater school.

512
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,560
They didn't.
They just kind of, you know, ran

513
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,360
into somebody in a pub and he
said hey, you want to go on tour

514
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,760
and next thing you know you're,
you know, on tour as a lighting

515
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,240
guy or a rigger or whatever it
was, right?

516
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,760
And more recently it's it's
different because now there's

517
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,920
real training and and a lot of
school programs and special

518
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,680
schools for this type of stuff.
So but how did you get your

519
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,640
start?
Well, it's a the very first

520
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,760
interaction I had with like
anything entertainment lighting

521
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,440
or theater lighting was that I
joined a theater class in like

522
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,800
6th grade.
Oh, wow.

523
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,600
The teacher used to the
teacher's husband was the

524
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,920
basically the boss of the local
community theater because like

525
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,200
in Germany, every city has like
a ensemble theater, full staff,

526
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,000
really nice.
You know, all the different

527
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,440
departments work their full time
and they do a repertoire like

528
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,400
like 2-3 different shows
throughout the year.

529
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,560
And it's all subsidized and they
really care about the arts.

530
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:35,360
And so my teacher's husband that
ran the theater group was the

531
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,840
guy running the whole theater.
And she's like, hey, you're like

532
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,360
really interested in this.
Do you want to do like an

533
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,880
internship for like a couple of
days to just see the different

534
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,400
departments?
Actually me a little like, you

535
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,520
know, 11-12 years old, stepped
first time on a theater stage

536
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,760
and worked into a front of house
booth and saw the paint shop and

537
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,440
the costumes and the wigs and
like wow, this is like.

538
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,120
All you were hooked?
Doing great.

539
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,960
I joined HS that class to be,
you know, as an actor, but

540
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,960
pretty much learned very quickly
that that was not a very good

541
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,120
idea.
So I started building props and

542
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,960
some lighting because we didn't
have any.

543
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,600
So I built my soup can lights
together with my dad's.

544
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,960
Like really?
Just from nothing really.

545
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,720
Yeah, that was my first step in
little.

546
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Little did you know at that
time, huh?

547
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,800
Yeah, you know.
I expect with a couple of other

548
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,800
things.
And then a big thing in Germany

549
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,680
at that time was like dance
schools.

550
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,960
We were like 1415.
You go to these like accredited

551
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:40,000
dance schools and do like your
classes and they had a ended up

552
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,120
being quite involved in it and
being started DJ ING in this

553
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,400
place for like basically a youth
disco that was like on Saturday

554
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,720
early evenings till like, you
know, 8:00 or 8:00 or 9:00.

555
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,520
So I was supposed to enter like
DJ ING and music.

556
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,480
So I'm like, hey, I want to be a
DJ at this.

557
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,120
That's cool.
The lighting system was not

558
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,520
working so great and basically
me starting that.

559
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,000
That's the reason why I sit
here.

560
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,200
It really kind of evolved.
Wow.

561
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,000
Me trying, me fixing a couple of
lights, finding like a local

562
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,000
lighting company to buy some
spare parts and some bulbs and

563
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,840
some, you know, this and that,
some gels.

564
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,160
And then I'm like, hey, can I
hang out in your shop and maybe

565
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,080
try out the stuff and learn how
to, you know, put some stuff

566
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,600
together and you know, put some
cables together.

567
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,920
And I really learned from like
absolutely ground up, which was

568
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,000
more an audio focus company.
So I did a lot of stacking of

569
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,720
speaker stacks, did a lot of
running of wires and pulled

570
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,680
stuff through the muds and and
really sort of, I was in the

571
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,000
shop all the time.
They're probably like, who the

572
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,600
hell is this dude he's just ever
going to leave.

573
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,720
That's awesome.
Yes.

574
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,040
You know it's it's.
Kind of got me really into this.

575
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,480
Do you know Jim Digby?
I don't.

576
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,800
I don't know the name, but I
don't.

577
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,600
He he's the, I think he's the
chairman or something of the

578
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,360
ESA.
He's a production manager.

579
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,400
He's done loads and loads of
stuff, really smart guy.

580
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,800
But he, he started as a DJ in a
disco.

581
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,280
In the disco era in, I believe
it was Philadelphia, if I

582
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,160
remember correctly, and I think
it was his first night.

583
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,080
I think it was the club's first
night.

584
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,960
This big club had just opened
and they had this huge thing.

585
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,400
It was like a spaceship or
something that was above the

586
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,080
dance floor and something
somebody, the owners I guess,

587
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,560
cut corners on the rigging and
he was responsible for the

588
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,720
switches.
And this story gets very unfunny

589
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,000
really quickly.
But when he hit the switches and

590
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,120
this thing moves on these
tracks, it actually went off the

591
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,560
end of a track and killed
someone.

592
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,880
And yet he's still in the
industry.

593
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,200
Like 60 years later or 50 years
later or whatever.

594
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,080
He's still in the industry, even
though on his first gig somebody

595
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,400
actually died, you know, so
you're.

596
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,280
You're this path for the safety.
Exactly, exactly.

597
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,360
That's what he said, he said.
From very early on, I knew there

598
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,080
had to be some standards.
And I knew that, you know, you

599
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,520
couldn't just say, hey, we're
going to save a few bucks and

600
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,200
get rid of, you know, a stopper
that keeps this thing from going

601
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,680
off the tracks or whatever.
Yeah.

602
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,600
So Can you imagine that being a
lot of events in, you know, the

603
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400
area of northern Germany where I
grew up, tiny little city.

604
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,040
It's on the North Sea coast
called Wilhelm's Hoffman.

605
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,480
It's named after King Emperor,
Willem the Second who wanted to

606
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,160
build a Navy and play, play
German Emperor.

607
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,920
So he's like, yeah, a little
naval town on here.

608
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,680
Willems Hoffman So it's funny
you you went from there to

609
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,040
Fredericks Hoffen.
I did.

610
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,320
It's actually not that far and
that's all that's interesting.

611
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,679
We they built a lot of local
clubs.

612
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:12,239
So I ended up working at you in
a nightclub for two years as a

613
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,560
light jockey with like a lot of
19 inch stuff, high end light

614
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,000
wave research, color pro
controllers and data flash

615
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,960
controllers and learn how to
program them all.

616
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,440
Yeah, step by step.
There was like old scanner

617
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,080
controllers where they come in
from Italy called Sagitta, yeah.

618
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,400
It's still around Sagitta, yeah.
The whole area like, yeah,

619
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520
little 19 inch controllers, but
they had to step by step with a

620
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,120
little joystick to program it.
So it was really helpful to

621
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,639
learn actually.
Like had a live command that I

622
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,120
made there.
So there was like the first sort

623
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,080
of analog desk that I used was
like some of MA stuff, Yeah,

624
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,480
yeah.
And then really like I'll

625
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,360
program scanners without any
like moving light controller,

626
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,920
actually just on faders and
trying to patch them and.

627
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,880
Oh my.
God like all play Paki like 6

628
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:12,360
channel mini scans, Hpes there
like and Intelli beams like all

629
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,960
the stuff that really didn't
need much DMX and it was like

630
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,160
very much like very basic things
and everybody thought it was

631
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,560
awesome, you know?
Yeah, more of those on the gig.

632
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,880
You're like you were the king.
Yeah.

633
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,720
You know, sticks of Parse and
some Acls.

634
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,600
Of course you know you.
Wouldn't have to worry about

635
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,800
what gels to pick and how to
cross them to get like the right

636
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,200
colors that you wanted.
So yeah, a good time to learn.

637
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,520
I mean I was a bit past of, you
know, other people have seen on

638
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,000
your podcast of probably 10
years earlier than that.

639
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,360
Yeah, I mean even more.
They're really in the beginning

640
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,240
of this where like what?
Nothing was there.

641
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,280
So I came in with a lot maturing
quite quickly and stuff was

642
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,520
probably a lot safer already.
I'm not sure about that, but

643
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,800
maybe, yeah, yeah, I think, I
think safety in the, I think

644
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,200
safety in the earliest days came
from the fact that, you know, if

645
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,240
I'm designing this rig and I'm
hanging the rig and I'm going to

646
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,000
be climbing on the rig while
it's hung, it better be safe

647
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,320
enough so it doesn't kill me.
You know, they weren't

648
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,080
necessary.
Harbor Fest because in the city

649
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,000
is like a harbor and it's like
super windy all the time.

650
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,560
They had this like really weird
company that they hired to build

651
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,680
a stage which was basically in
just some painting, like like

652
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480
the scaffolding they put up for
for painters on the building

653
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,720
just left and right.
And then they just wrecked a

654
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,560
couple of medium duty trusses
and some tarps and build a stage

655
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,560
out of this.
And it was super windy, it was

656
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,520
rainy.
The thing was like swaying

657
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,080
around like crazy, and the guy
had to climb up there in the

658
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,560
storm to cut the top loose
before this whole thing went

659
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,240
flying.
So I've seen.

660
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,920
I mean, the guy could have
really died, like.

661
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,960
One big No kidding.
Ibidad.

662
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,880
Yeah, you know, we've all done
it though.

663
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:09,120
I remember, I remember a race we
were at in Phoenix and in

664
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,800
Arizona.
They get these things called

665
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,400
dust devils, I think they're
called or something like that,

666
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,280
but it's basically little mini
tornadoes and they just come out

667
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,320
of nowhere.
And so this just happened where

668
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,200
it was a sunny day, everything
was fine, all it was a go Kart

669
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,160
race and all the kids were lined
up on the grid.

670
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,080
My son was on the grid at that
point and all of a sudden this,

671
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,240
you could see it coming at us
and first you get all the kids

672
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:41,400
basically undercover somewhere.
And then tents were starting to

673
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,240
pick up.
You know, these race tents were

674
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:45,520
starting to pick up.
So we went and we were just

675
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,920
holding on to a leg while it was
pulling you up off the ground.

676
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,280
And I'm looking at another guy
and I'm going, this probably

677
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,320
isn't very smart what we're
doing right now.

678
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,400
Like we're either going to go
flying across this entire

679
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,120
paddock or you know something
bad is going to happen here.

680
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,960
And fortunately it didn't.
But.

681
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,800
Yeah, I think we're all been
through some stories where

682
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,280
you're like, afterwards you're
like, that was a really, really

683
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,800
stupid idea.
Not so smart.

684
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,040
Lucky that we didn't get
serious.

685
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,400
Well, especially I'm trying to
save a couple $1000 tent, you

686
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,480
know, as opposed to my life.
Like, not real sensible, let the

687
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,760
tent go, but people do stupid.
Stuff intuitively and then only

688
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,000
afterwards.
Exactly, yeah.

689
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,720
I think that's what happened.
Running airplanes and get their

690
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,440
laptop because yeah, the laptop
is important.

691
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,720
Yeah.
So you're working in clubs and

692
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,120
you've by now probably decided
this is going to be my career.

693
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,640
I think I kind of like this
industry.

694
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,280
Yeah, it was kind of.
That was really something that I

695
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:49,120
was interested in at the how
it's like my was like you do 13

696
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,960
years in Germany in school.
We we tend to go to school for a

697
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,200
long time.
Yeah.

698
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,920
I'm like, So what I'm going to
do, and they actually just

699
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,480
started a degree in Berlin.
I was an engineering degree for

700
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,120
event and theater technology.
I was actually designed by the

701
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,800
technical director of the German
opera in Berlin.

702
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,280
It was mostly mechanical
engineering, so trussing and

703
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,160
stage automation and, you know,
seats that unfold themselves.

704
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,240
All this like crazy stuff that
you see especially in in Europe

705
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:22,720
and the theaters and
multifunction halls.

706
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:27,280
It's just like a ton of really
interesting scenery and

707
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,280
automation pieces there.
So it was kind of more targeted

708
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,800
around that and then had a bit
of audio, a bit of bit of

709
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,720
lighting, bit of scenery, art
mix sprinkled into it.

710
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,360
But at its heart it was an
engineering degree.

711
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,200
Like, OK, like this is something
I want to do, but in Germany you

712
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,560
have to go into the you get
drafted.

713
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,680
When at least when I was young,
I was still actively done.

714
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,320
So I had to join the military
for a couple of years, ended up

715
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,760
actually serving in the German
Navy for two years.

716
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,280
So it's a good total break from
all the event stuff, went really

717
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,120
offline and and did that.
So it was quite interesting.

718
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,720
In action, you saw action.
Sort of, yeah.

719
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,400
Within the boat outs and was we
did like a weapons embargo

720
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,920
during the war in Kosovo back
then, which is like war with

721
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,800
dougoslavia all broke up into
all these different regions.

722
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,680
That was quite violence.
And I was part of a UN

723
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,680
peacekeeping force.
So we did like potted around in

724
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,880
the Mediterranean Sea.
It was like 18 other ships and

725
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,600
basically enforced weapons
embargo and made sure that

726
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,520
people didn't do stupid stuff.
Did you have a cool role or were

727
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,920
you just a grunt?
I was with a radio operator

728
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,440
actually.
Interesting, with my little

729
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,920
headset on.
Basically communicated between

730
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,560
all the different chips and
coordinated everything.

731
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,000
Interesting.
Quite interesting because you

732
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,120
end up living with a lot of
people you don't like, so it's

733
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,640
basically was a good practice to
living on a tour bus eventually.

734
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,440
Yeah.
You know, you're with a bunch of

735
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,320
guys and it's smelly and awful
and you don't really like each

736
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,360
other, but you have to get along
and so you have to work on a

737
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,920
more common goal.
So actually it was a good, good,

738
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,840
good education for that.
So how long were you out on the

739
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,480
sea?
I was two years.

740
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,160
So it's actually was one year
was mandatory and then

741
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,520
volunteered for another year
only a few miles away from my

742
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:31,960
parents' house.
Wow.

743
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,480
In Nagle Harbor.
And so it was kind of, if you

744
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,600
did volunteered for longer, you
had a choice of assignments.

745
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,600
I'm like, OK, I'll do this.
But it was two years straight.

746
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,600
That was two years straight.
Yeah.

747
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,760
Well, now, like, you go home in
and out and you're obviously

748
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,840
real, but yeah, you lived on a
ship for two years.

749
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,600
Wow.
That had to be that had to make

750
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,280
you go crazy sometimes.
I really enjoyed it, actually.

751
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,280
Really.
Navy is probably not as tough as

752
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,920
other ones.
Yeah, we build a nice swimming

753
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,880
pool on the front of the ship.
The German Navy doesn't have any

754
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,680
money, so we had very little
expensive weaponry.

755
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,680
Not like the US who likes to go
up.

756
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,560
Yeah, so we couldn't really
afford it.

757
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,840
I would just think the
confinement though would drive

758
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,160
like I get crazy on a cruise
ship after five or six days, so

759
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,480
I can't, like I did a tour when
I was in at Pearl Harbor.

760
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:34,440
You can tour a submarine and
that to me, like, I don't have

761
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,760
claustrophobia, but I felt so
claustrophobic, like just

762
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,520
thinking, could I live on this
thing?

763
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,080
Hell no.
Get Me Out of here, you know.

764
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,080
Like I've been in a couple of
German submarines and that two

765
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,040
I'm 63 so that is not that
doesn't work.

766
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,120
No no had everywhere the ship no
kid that we're on was the

767
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,080
largest one that the German Navy
had at that time and it was

768
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,920
quite helpful comfy.
Yeah.

769
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,640
I really I thought it was a
great time.

770
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,000
Yeah.
Around when I went to really

771
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,120
cool places around the world
and.

772
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,520
And you didn't get shot at and
sunk.

773
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,240
So that's good.
Yeah, that's.

774
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,360
I guess that's the tough part.
If you're in the Navy when

775
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,840
somebody bombs you and you sink,
you know, that's probably

776
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,160
probably a bad, bad day in the
Navy, I'm guessing.

777
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,520
Luckily it was fairly safe what
we did back then.

778
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,400
Yeah, so when you came back off
that ship, you just jumped

779
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:26,800
straight back into what you were
doing.

780
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:32,600
Yeah, went back into this
university degree they they made

781
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,240
you do a six month internship on
for mechanical things.

782
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:41,160
Like you learn how to use you
know a lathe and CNC machines

783
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,920
and you have to basically go for
six months until like a really

784
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:46,880
practice working with in a metal
workshop.

785
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:47,560
Really.
Yeah.

786
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,280
I did it at a power plant in in
the city where I'm from there's

787
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,440
this big 700 MW coal-fired power
plant that's just dominating the

788
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,400
skyline.
I'm like go there and did, did

789
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,280
like 6 months there and learned
a lot of, you know, handy

790
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,000
things.
Yeah, a bit of electric, bit of

791
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,400
hydraulic.
So it's kind of actually lots of

792
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,440
different things.
So yeah, to try out.

793
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,640
And then I had to move to
Berlin, So I left my little

794
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,120
small city of 90,000 people went
to like a really big

795
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,680
metropolitan area.
Why did you have to move?

796
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,640
Because the university was.
In oh, oh, I see.

797
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,520
Yeah.
So left my small city and all my

798
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,920
friends and just sort of packed
up and left.

799
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,960
So 5 hour drive and then moved
into the dorm.

800
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,920
Started studying there pretty
quickly.

801
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,040
This was the time where Berlin
was really changing a lot was in

802
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,200
1997.
Yeah.

803
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,800
So it was only like a nine years
or eight years after the war

804
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,880
came down.
Yeah, it was a major turmoil,

805
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,160
like the Pottstormer plots if
you ever been there looked was

806
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,680
just Norman's land.
I was just like was just like

807
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,640
Norman's land between East and
and West Germany.

808
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,640
And that got built up in like 3
years from nothing to elicit

809
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,480
like massive center hop of
Berlin.

810
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,680
It was really interesting.
A lot of companies moved there.

811
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,600
A lot of embassies were building
their places, like German

812
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,120
government was building stuff
everywhere.

813
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:25,280
So there was tons of work in
fancy parties and TV events and

814
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,960
met a couple of rental companies
there and quickly got very busy

815
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,040
and not so focused on my degree.
Yeah, yeah.

816
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,000
So did you quit school or did
you finish?

817
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:40,840
Yeah, I actually didn't finish.
No.

818
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Skipped out about a year before
I was finished because I was too

819
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,680
busy.
Yeah.

820
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,680
Oh, you were working while you
were going to school?

821
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,040
Yeah, I was doing a lot of
freelance gigs.

822
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,720
I started working at a
television show.

823
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,400
I worked on the German version
off Top of the Pops as a.

824
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,160
Jesus.
Yeah, basically as an

825
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,360
electrician.
So yeah, it wasn't even in like

826
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,640
programming, but like, you know,
sitting there for like 3-4 days

827
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,480
a week watching people program
20 songs.

828
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,880
It was very cool, you know,
learning a lot about hole hug,

829
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,480
probing programming back then
because that was kind of really

830
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,560
prevalent at that time.
Yeah, yeah, it hit hard when it

831
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,960
came.
Buck bucked All the programmers

832
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,880
that were there, probably
annoyed the crap out of them.

833
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,280
They're like, why does this guy
not leave me alone and ask me

834
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,160
all these questions all the time
but you?

835
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,200
Were very curious.
I had a kid who just wanted to

836
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,360
know everything.
She was absorbing all this,

837
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,000
yeah.
And then started doing a lot of,

838
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,840
you know, little programming
gags and design gigs on my own.

839
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,320
Yeah.
Got involved in Expo 2000 and

840
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,520
Hanover back then versus like
World Expo.

841
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:53,040
Worked with a design company and
supervised a couple

842
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,960
installations and then ended up
working on the maintenance crew

843
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,320
for the German pavilion, which
was just like, you know, exhibit

844
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,280
of the host country.
Had tons of studio.

845
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,040
Color and stuff, yeah.
Every night of eight hours with

846
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,880
the whole wreck and nothing to
do and just had all the time in

847
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,240
the world to like study
programming and fix lights and

848
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:16,840
take them apart.
So it was really good school.

849
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,000
Really.
Yeah.

850
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,640
Know all the insurance and outs
of everything.

851
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,760
Did you get to know Jean Larvier
at that time?

852
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,280
Because he was the the guy
inside high end.

853
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,280
Later on in the US.
Oh, OK.

854
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,320
Yeah, yeah.
Because he was the studio,

855
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,120
studio color support guy for a
number of years.

856
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:45,800
I think when it came out was
probably around 96, maybe 9596

857
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,800
and he was the high end support
guy for that.

858
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,240
Yeah, I remember I read all
about the stuff all the time.

859
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,760
You know, it's a big Metallica
tour where they were on for the

860
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,240
first time, I think.
And.

861
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,880
I remember that deal that was
with Obi's.

862
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,120
I that was right when John and I
both started at high end, John

863
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:09,000
Wiseman and I both started and
we did that deal with Obi's for

864
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,520
I think it was 2 or 300 studio
colors at the time, which that

865
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,440
was a big rig at that time.
Like now, what show doesn't have

866
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,080
1000 lights?
You know, it's crazy.

867
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,480
So at the same time, while I was
there, this maybe not many

868
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,800
people remember this anymore,
but there used to be this online

869
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,200
forum called the Light Network.
Yes, I do remember cuz I was

870
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,160
always getting, I was always
getting torn in half on those

871
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,840
light networks.
So I remember it well, yeah.

872
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,480
So there was a good way to get
to know people from like around

873
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,200
different parts of the world.
They had you know, there was

874
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,680
support forums there from HOG
programming and for like fixture

875
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,920
questions.
So it was quite active in it for

876
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,440
a while.
Yeah, I remember.

877
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:59,480
And through that, what then
really changed my trajectory a

878
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,000
lot was that flying pick was
designed the hog three at that

879
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,640
point.
And from you know what I

880
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,920
gathered, maybe ran bit into
some money problems while they

881
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,440
were doing it.
In the end, High end purchased

882
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:14,960
flying Pick.
Yep.

883
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,480
And that set of everything that
I'm doing nowadays still.

884
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,960
So the reason why I'm sitting
here with you is that, yeah,

885
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,920
that event's totally changed my
life, even though it had nothing

886
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,400
to do with me.
Yeah, So what happened?

887
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:33,480
So what they did is actually
also John Weissman a little bit

888
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,840
there.
So it's kind of funny how this

889
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:41,400
all goes full circle.
So flying pick gets sold to high

890
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:49,440
ends and then high end decided
to put up like a hawk

891
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,040
programming, lighting, design,
lighting, direction, school.

892
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,120
They're like, hey, we really
want to do something with this

893
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,000
new control system that's part
of the family now, and they

894
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,680
designed this thing called the
Automated Lighting Academy.

895
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,320
I don't know if you ever heard
that term, but.

896
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,880
It was, yeah, I was there.
I I was there right before I

897
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,320
left.
I think I left a few years

898
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,640
before they started that, yeah.
But I remember.

899
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,600
Once unfortunately.
But it was driven by Niels

900
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:23,640
Thorson who expect them still
involved in this by.

901
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,800
So it was something that they
actually did in LA they used the

902
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:32,840
high end shop that was at the
brewery back then out there and

903
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:38,880
and Van Nuys so that was John
Weissman Randy Rena like all

904
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,080
these guys that are working
there.

905
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,080
The shop wasn't even that old
from where I started going

906
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,000
there.
Yeah.

907
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,680
So they advertised this thing
you even had to like have a

908
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,800
little quiz and get a proof to
do it and you had to pay quite a

909
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,800
bit and I'm like yeah this
sounds great.

910
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,640
So I really like hawk
programming.

911
00:50:53,640 --> 00:51:00,240
I want to get, you know, better
at this and applied for this,

912
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,960
got accepted.
And then I'm like, oh, I guess

913
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,080
I'm moving to LA for six weeks.
So it wasn't like a week class.

914
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:12,160
I was like a real commitment to
like leave Berlin, move to like

915
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,560
a temporary, you know, time
apartment that I found like a

916
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:21,160
room share.
And it happened that the friend

917
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:27,640
on my roommate is not my wife.
Oh wow, you met your wife

918
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,680
through the person who's house
you were staying in.

919
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,280
High end but purchased Flying
Pig.

920
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,040
This is really.
Amazing.

921
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,920
Crazy.
Crazy how little things come

922
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,160
together in a whole life.
Happens around those little

923
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,480
things.
Yeah, there's this couple from

924
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,160
Sweden.
They're like, it's too hot in LA

925
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,040
In the summer, we'll get the
fuck out of here.

926
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,840
We're back to Sweden for the
summer and then we hate Sweden

927
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,000
in the winter.
It's too cold.

928
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,120
So we live in LA and they're put
up there.

929
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:55,760
Yeah.
You know, bedroom.

930
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,360
Yeah, in Studio City.
And I was in Sherman Oaks.

931
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,120
They're like, oh, it was early
days of the Internet still, too.

932
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,920
It was kind of not so easy to
find stuff.

933
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,760
Yeah.
It was like LA rent thing.

934
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,280
I don't know what it was called
back then.

935
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,960
I'm like, OK, found this place
and then this.

936
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,640
My roommate's friend came in
from Minneapolis for a couple of

937
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,720
days.
Didn't even know that some

938
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:23,880
German dude was staying there.
Yeah.

939
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,760
And we kind of hit it off.
She's she's an American.

940
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,200
Yeah, yeah, she from Minnesota.
Oh, so that's why you live in

941
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,680
Minnesota?
Because I was always wondering,

942
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:39,120
what the hell is he doing in?
Yeah, what the hell is Matthias

943
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,920
doing in?
We, we met, I was at the same

944
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,320
time while I was doing this
Academy, I started actually my

945
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,160
first touring gig which I got
through a German company and I

946
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,000
was like sort of B level version
of River Dance.

947
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,040
So there basically was like all
this really this Irish dancing

948
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,040
was this huge thing.
And then there was just like

949
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,800
been of companies that you know
you play in New York with River

950
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,640
Dance but then somewhere in the
suburb you put up you know a

951
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:15,360
show with basically the the B
version of this unrelated to

952
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,760
that but you sort of capitalize
on them and all the marketing

953
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,320
And then he's playing a, you
know place was 2000 seats and

954
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,280
you tour with a bus and two
trucks and we did that around

955
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:27,800
Germany.
It was really popular.

956
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,240
I took it over from a guy.
It was all programmed.

957
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:32,400
They just need a lighting
director you're interested in

958
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,560
doing this.
So A toured with this.

959
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,920
They were just starting AUS tour
back then was with Christie

960
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:46,080
Lights, was doing all the gear.
Unfortunately right before we're

961
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,720
supposed to start that tour,
9/11 happened which through the

962
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:53,200
whole thing completely apart
obviously.

963
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,240
And I ended up being stuck sort
of.

964
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:58,840
I was actually prepping a tour
in Toronto.

965
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,680
Oh, and you couldn't get back
here, or you couldn't get back

966
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,680
to Minnesota?
So it was back and forth a

967
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:15,160
little bit, ended up the tour
got postponed, ended up being in

968
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,400
the States a lot, and basically
I ended up any time I could find

969
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,160
or spend the Minnesota with her.
Yeah, yeah.

970
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,680
So as you do.
As you do.

971
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,720
So then you got married when
you're still with her.

972
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:34,400
Actually, I was touring on an
artist visa and the tour was on

973
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,960
again, off again, and they ran
out of money and then we're back

974
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,120
on.
It was kind of turbulent, as

975
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,480
many things were at that time.
You kind of like didn't really

976
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,200
know what, you know, happens the
next day and what promoter goes

977
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,640
out of business and yeah.
It was brutal.

978
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,640
Yes, at the end of the tour.
So I was touring in an artist

979
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,480
visa, which made the whole get
married here a lot easier

980
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,000
because it's actually not so
easy to just move to the US and

981
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,120
marry somebody.
Yeah, that's really quite

982
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:06,080
involved as a foreigner, I told.
Her.

983
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,080
I did it.
I did it too, by the way.

984
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,360
You know?
Yeah, I moved from Canada and

985
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,240
and married an American.
Unfortunately mine has a less

986
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:17,160
happy ending than yours though.
But.

987
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,280
I proposed to my wife on the
last day of me staying in the US

988
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:24,560
on top of the Empire State
Building.

989
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,600
Jeez.
Always a bit special, maybe a

990
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,000
bit corny, but it was.
I thought it was really cool.

991
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,400
Well, no.
But if she says no, you throw

992
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,120
her off.
That's easy.

993
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,920
Yeah, perfect.
I never thought about it that

994
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:42,760
way.
I wasn't prepared for.

995
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,080
This is, this is my sinister
brain.

996
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:46,720
I just go straight there, you
know?

997
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,240
I go straight there.
You did?

998
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,400
That's a nice story.
So when was that?

999
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,440
When did you get married?
2002 so.

1000
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,160
Wow, 20 years already?
22 years?

1001
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,560
Yeah, it happens.
Quickly Doesn't.

1002
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:04,680
It very low key, just in a
courthouse.

1003
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,840
Yay, couple of people, some real
dear friends.

1004
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,360
Are we still really good friends
with as witnesses and that's it?

1005
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,920
And you got a green card.
And some, like, you know, you

1006
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,320
live in Berlin.
I moved to Minneapolis and I'm

1007
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,560
like, you know, I really want to
move to Hollywood.

1008
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,080
So I'm like, I want to work in
Hollywood.

1009
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,920
This just sounds great.
As a German say, yeah.

1010
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,480
I'm.
Moving to Hollywood?

1011
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,840
Yeah, so I did that.
Like packed up everything, sold

1012
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,120
everything I have and I'm like
I'm out of Germany let's try

1013
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,120
something completely different
and but the only thing I brought

1014
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,160
with was most my record
collection of being a DJ back

1015
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:43,720
then so.
That's cool.

1016
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,560
Everything else.
So she moved with you to LA?

1017
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:47,760
Yeah.
Oh, wow.

1018
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,640
She's a travel agent.
She must like you through.

1019
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:56,880
Our friend who was a travel
agent worked in, she still does

1020
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,680
that.
She's got the CMT awards this

1021
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,440
week in Austin, so she just
doesn't get payment.

1022
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:06,560
Travel for television, huh?
So she found a job right away

1023
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,480
back then at Warner Brothers in
the travel department, and I

1024
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,920
started freelancing around town.
So I'm like, yeah, let's see

1025
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,560
what happens.
That's really cool.

1026
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,920
That's one of the trainers in
the Lighting Academy.

1027
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,560
So we had Brad Schiller was one
of the guys who did a lot of

1028
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,560
that and the guy that really got
me into this was Michael Nevitt.

1029
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,960
Yeah, I don't know if you had
him on your.

1030
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,680
I haven't yet, no.
That's a good, good idea,

1031
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,160
though.
We should get Michael Nevitt on.

1032
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,360
Michael Nevitt?
Sarah, write that one down.

1033
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,160
He's actually the reason that I
met Eric.

1034
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,640
So that's that's oh really
Circle started.

1035
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,360
Yeah.
So Michael used to work for

1036
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,240
Flying Pick in in the US like
she was the first employee

1037
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:52,800
outside of England and did all
the Hog One training originally,

1038
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:57,680
then Hog Two, then worked for
Bob Gordon for a while at AC.

1039
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,760
So, you know, it's all kind of
interesting how small the world

1040
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,960
really is that we're in and how
you keep coming across.

1041
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,800
The same and now he's is he
light switch.

1042
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,720
He's one of the.
He's with the Was it crossfade

1043
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,120
design?
Crossfade.

1044
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:11,960
That's what it is.
Yeah.

1045
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:13,960
It's Crossfade.
I knew it was one of the sort of

1046
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,560
collaborative businesses, but
yeah, it's it's, it's Eric

1047
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,240
Wade's company, right?
Cool.

1048
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,480
And so that was actually, at the
time where Martin decided to get

1049
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,800
into the console business, a bit
more serious.

1050
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,120
Yeah, yeah, I wanna, I wanna dig
into that one with you because

1051
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,520
that's an interesting story like
so.

1052
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,960
I don't know that people know
the the history of this

1053
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,520
beautiful Obsidian line that you
have.

1054
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,280
But you know, from what I
understand and you could either

1055
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:53,640
confirm nor or deny this.
But from what I understand, the

1056
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,040
M series from Martin Martin
decided they didn't want to be

1057
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,960
or couldn't be in the console
business anymore or whatever.

1058
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,320
They worked out a deal elation,
took over the M series and then

1059
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,960
ultimately changed the name to
Obsidian.

1060
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:13,240
But even before the M series it
was a company who actually I

1061
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:17,760
believe I found at might have
been Pro Lite.

1062
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,880
It was either Prolite or I.
Think it was Rimini, Maybe I

1063
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:22,440
heard it.
Was Rimini.

1064
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,960
It was Rimini.
So I found this little obscure

1065
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,760
console company and I took Peter
over to meet them and I said,

1066
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,440
Peter, we need to do something
with these guys.

1067
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,320
They seem really smart and and
enthusiastic and you know, I

1068
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:39,120
think we need a control line
because you know, let's face it,

1069
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,680
yours are junk and you know all
these rack mount things and

1070
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:48,120
stuff that they had and and we
had tried to work a deal out

1071
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,240
with Compulite.
I'm sort of happy that never

1072
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,480
happened.
And then you know this case

1073
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,240
thing just all came together
quite quickly.

1074
00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:01,040
So is that sort of the trans
transition or whatever?

1075
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,760
Elaborate a little bit on that.
So there's a company called R&D

1076
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,520
International Belgium company
tiny lot fit.

1077
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,440
They actually came out of the PC
building business where they

1078
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,280
built like business PCs and
somebody in that, you know back

1079
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,760
then you you bought your 10 PCs
for your accounting office.

1080
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,920
So if you're engineering office
and those companies that put

1081
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,800
them together for you because it
was all not so easy like buying

1082
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,640
a laptop, you have to you have
companies that service them and

1083
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,520
change your graphics cards and
configure all the little dip

1084
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,280
switches in there And it was
really quite, it was an actual

1085
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,720
business.
We still work with some of the

1086
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,960
guys actually like the hardware
designer that I work with is

1087
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,520
still from that original
company.

1088
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,120
Is Mark still around?
Mark Coleman?

1089
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,000
No.
He actually owns a video

1090
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:49,720
production company now.
Oh, does he really?

1091
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,720
Yeah, because I remember when I
met them at Remini, it was it

1092
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:58,240
was this really, really nice guy
who was sort of smart engineer,

1093
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,040
ish kind of guy.
And then this relatively

1094
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,000
obnoxious used car salesman
named Ferdinand, and it was

1095
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,200
basically the two of them.
And then I think Ferdinand's

1096
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,960
wife or something was involved
as well or some other.

1097
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,360
There was a woman involved as as
I recall.

1098
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,080
Yeah, that was before me.
Yeah.

1099
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,600
But then they built this.
Mark was really the guy who

1100
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,040
comes from the, you know,
entertainment sites, and he got

1101
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,120
them into like, hey, let's try
to build like a console.

1102
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,080
Then they went to Remedy to show
it.

1103
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,200
And then sort of this connection
with Martin happened.

1104
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,640
So they built him together with
Martin.

1105
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:34,800
Martin sold it under their own
name.

1106
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,800
Yeah.
Within the case console, there

1107
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,360
was multiple iterations of that.
Yeah.

1108
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,480
And then they decided to migrate
this to like a more.

1109
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,080
It was a bit maybe disco and the
way it was set up and fast like

1110
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,280
the way it did scenes, it
wasn't, it didn't have really

1111
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,040
like a queue structure per SE.
So it wasn't really quite the

1112
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,120
way most people were starting
the program.

1113
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,080
They decided to evolve that into
a really a Martin product line

1114
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:09,800
which became Maxus originally.
That was in 2001 when that

1115
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,840
happened, Eric, Loaders like,
you know, we really, you know,

1116
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,960
have to build like a bit of a
department around this and you

1117
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:19,000
know, take this a bit more
serious and you hired Michael to

1118
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,520
to do this.
Yeah, I remember that.

1119
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,520
How I got into this to do some
support and training for them.

1120
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,960
Oh, Michael brought you along.
Yeah, he's like, hey, do you

1121
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:29,320
want to like freelance a little
bit?

1122
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,560
And we need somebody to just go
around and demo these things and

1123
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,800
you're really good with consoles
and you know all the different

1124
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,560
other ones and you know,
pictures being easy, you just

1125
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,200
you.
Always seem to meet the right

1126
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,240
person in the right place and
everything just falls together

1127
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,640
for you.
I was pretty fortunate.

1128
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,720
Many coincidences really led me
to sit here with.

1129
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,200
You right now.
Yeah, it's interesting.

1130
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,240
That's probably true for many
people you talk to.

1131
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,040
They're like, you know, if that
wouldn't have happened and this

1132
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,960
wouldn't have happened, I met
this guy or.

1133
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,680
If I didn't miss that bus, and
yeah, if I didn't miss that bus

1134
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,600
that one time, you know.
Yeah, no, you're totally right.

1135
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:06,200
People's lives get shaped by
coincidences.

1136
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:07,280
Yeah, it is.
They're not.

1137
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:08,520
Coincidences.
We don't know.

1138
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,640
Maybe there's some math plan
that works.

1139
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:11,040
True.
Who?

1140
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:13,520
Knows it's all true.
We don't know.

1141
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:14,440
Maybe it's.
Destiny.

1142
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,360
The universe when it's all
happening.

1143
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:21,120
Yeah, or somebody's sitting at A
at a computer or some AI

1144
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,760
computer on some other planet
right now going, I'm going to

1145
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,720
make, you know, this happen to
Marcel and this to Matthias and

1146
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:29,320
this guy over here.
We're puppets.

1147
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,000
Yeah, that's company that
basically were independent for a

1148
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,280
long time.
Eventually, they decided to buy

1149
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,960
this Friday night guy out
because he was a bit of a, you

1150
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,160
know, pain in the butt.
He was a pain in the butt.

1151
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,080
He was a nice guy, but God, he
was a pain in the butt.

1152
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,840
But it's that they did the
engineering and software

1153
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,040
Mountain did the manufacturing
in Frederickshaven in Denmark.

1154
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,960
Yeah, they did all the
engineering on hardware, on the

1155
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,040
assembly.
That was all done by Martin.

1156
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,080
You know, the original front
plate of the console was

1157
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,120
actually done by the same guy I
did, the MEC 2000.

1158
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,160
So it had very much the same
sort of flow and that kind of

1159
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,640
plastic that they used, which
was all very kind of related.

1160
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:15,680
Yeah, interesting.
Then this whole financial crisis

1161
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,760
around 2008 happened that kind
of let this company, you know,

1162
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,200
it was a bit difficult because I
only had one customer, Martin.

1163
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,880
You know, when they weren't
buying consoles, there was money

1164
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:27,080
coming in.
Yeah.

1165
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,960
It was also at the time where
media servers was a bit of a

1166
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:34,760
thing, so that this Maxidia
server, and that was part of

1167
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,960
what they offered when, but
they're basically their cash

1168
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,040
flow ran out and they're like,
Yep, yes, Martin decided to,

1169
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,600
instead of letting it die, buy
the company out.

1170
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:47,760
And I thought they bought them
earlier than that.

1171
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,000
That's that's interesting.
I thought it was much earlier.

1172
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:51,880
Yeah, I thought.
I thought they bought them like

1173
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:56,200
in the late 90s, early 2000s.
I didn't realize it was 2000.

1174
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:57,200
Eight.
No, it was really they ran

1175
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,280
independent as its own and they
basically paid a fee for the,

1176
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,120
you know, software design and
development.

1177
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,760
Interesting.
So they bought it out at the

1178
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:10,280
same time they restructured
their product management setup

1179
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,240
in Denmark and I moved from.
So at then I worked at Martin

1180
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:19,120
for several years as sort of the
support person for consoles and

1181
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,040
media servers.
Did a bit of interesting things

1182
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,400
like working on big lights, you
know, that's something that they

1183
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,880
tried all lots of different
things to sell.

1184
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:34,160
Was like these big searchlights.
Did some support for that, but

1185
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,320
then really wanted to get out of
the sort of trainer support

1186
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,600
thing into Was always interested
in the manufacturing side.

1187
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,680
Yeah.
And you know, was a, this

1188
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,760
product management role was a
really good opportunity.

1189
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,280
Yeah, it's really kind of fun.
Yeah.

1190
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:55,480
So I ended up working in product
management in Denmark from 2008

1191
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,120
or 9 onwards.
Specifically for the Maxis

1192
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,640
stuff.
In Maxi, yeah, but that actually

1193
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,880
moved from Maxis, which was so,
so was you know, had a bit of a

1194
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,720
peak in the beginning and then
kind of didn't live quite up to

1195
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:13,480
its expectations, let's say.
Yeah, we rebranded this into M

1196
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,800
series and got rid of the
plastic parts and made it like a

1197
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,560
metal front and that became like
Gray console that we've been

1198
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:22,360
sort of carrying through.
Yeah.

1199
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:28,280
That some some modular stuff was
really quite interesting,

1200
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,240
Martin, and eventually got sold
to Harmon.

1201
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,360
Yeah.
So it became part of the Harmon

1202
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:44,600
Group and we continued on with
these different developments,

1203
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:46,640
our state and product
management.

1204
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,920
Eventually when Samsung came in,
as he mentioned, it was a tiny

1205
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:52,480
part of the huge.
Corporation, yeah.

1206
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,240
Yeah.
Samsung bought it mostly for the

1207
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,520
car business, actually.
Yeah, I know.

1208
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,480
Yeah.
For the Harman technology and

1209
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,640
cars, well, it wasn't even the
technology.

1210
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:05,880
It was just to get in the car,
you know, because Harman owned

1211
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,680
such a big part of the car
market.

1212
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,360
You do your I drive, that's
actually meant made by them.

1213
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,880
Everybody's fighting over who
controls the automobile.

1214
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,040
You know, we got to get past the
cell phone, into the car because

1215
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:19,840
people spend so much time in
their car.

1216
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,840
And I don't think that's worked
out for a lot of these guys.

1217
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,480
But who knows?
I don't know.

1218
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:30,440
So we're part of that group for
a while, which is difficult to

1219
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,040
getting much done in a big
corporation.

1220
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,920
There's too many, there's a lot
of design by committee and let's

1221
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,680
just really you get disconnected
more and more and more from the

1222
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:40,200
people that actually make
decisions.

1223
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,680
Yeah, that's tough.
That's hard.

1224
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,360
It just has happened to many
companies in our business like I

1225
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:50,040
am a micro or yeah, very light
with Philips.

1226
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,920
Play Paki and Osram.
With Osram, so anything.

1227
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:58,440
Still very different.
You know, Samsung being this big

1228
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,960
and Martin being this little
tiny bug down here, you know,

1229
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,560
such a vast difference.
So, Osram.

1230
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:08,000
Now they kind of seem to be kind
of being able to do what they

1231
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,200
want and they just sort of
paddle along with that.

1232
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:13,520
Yeah, when I would say it was
really quite difficult to get

1233
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,800
much done decision wise.
The other scary thing is like,

1234
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,680
you know that you're such a
small part of their business

1235
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,760
that they could just any day
decide to shut it down and just

1236
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:27,359
say, yeah, we don't want this
lighting thing.

1237
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,479
It's a painter.
Ass like we're done with this.

1238
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,479
So there was this huge layoff
that Harman had in 2017.

1239
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,200
Yeah, I remember.
Which happened the day I was on

1240
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,800
vacation with my parents on Lake
Superior.

1241
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,359
I was literally driving along
the lake enjoying the day and

1242
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:44,600
getting a phone call.
And you're like, there's a

1243
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,040
conference call for you and you
have to be in it in one hour.

1244
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:54,479
And we didn't know, like it was
super secret, but they laid off

1245
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:58,560
like 700 people, closed 30
different field offices.

1246
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,800
So they're basically the, the,
this R&D group that we worked

1247
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:04,600
with, They were still in the
same office.

1248
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:07,080
Yeah, they were.
When you met them originally.

1249
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:08,000
Yeah.
Crazy.

1250
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:12,080
They somebody showed up and you
know, some lawyer from the

1251
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,800
Holland showed up, gave them all
the envelopes and said you're

1252
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:16,240
done in four weeks.
So packing up.

1253
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:21,920
Wow, Unreal.
No, there was no continuation of

1254
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:22,720
anything.
It wasn't.

1255
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,800
You couldn't even figure out
like how to handle any

1256
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,439
warranties or like you know and
nobody knew like it's just sort

1257
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,720
of happened.
Yeah, I know for a while there

1258
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,600
they were a tough company to do
business with too, because it

1259
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,279
was just like, well, what does
that look like?

1260
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:40,160
Like, where do I get service?
How do I get this?

1261
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,279
How do I get that?
Like, and they were just trying

1262
01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:44,200
to push their sales teams
together.

1263
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:48,680
So speaker sales people were now
selling lights and it was just

1264
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,040
so messy how they handled it and
they just didn't care.

1265
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:53,680
It was such a small part of
their business.

1266
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:59,600
So ended up losing my job that
day, which was tough of the 14

1267
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:03,320
years because you know, kind of
felt, you know, it was this is

1268
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:06,920
kind of a job that you really
identify with because in it,

1269
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,520
it's not like a nine to five gig
and you're like for work, don't

1270
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,240
work at this bank.
I work at a different one

1271
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,720
tomorrow doesn't matter so much.
Put a lot of, you know, effort

1272
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:18,520
into that.
So that's been really my career

1273
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,440
there.
It was tough, quite difficult

1274
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:24,200
for a while to.
I I understand it very well

1275
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:29,120
because when, you know, I left
Martin because it's a long story

1276
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,680
and I won't tell you exactly
what it was because.

1277
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:36,760
But I I just was in fear of some
bad things happening because of

1278
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,720
the way that the company was
being run at that time.

1279
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,400
And there were just some, there
were some funny business going

1280
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:47,120
on, let's call it, from Denmark.
And I was, I was afraid that I

1281
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,760
was actually going to, you know,
go to jail for for, you know,

1282
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,920
some kind of crazy maneuvering
that was going on over in

1283
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,760
Denmark.
And so I left and and went to

1284
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,200
high end and I was only at high
end for a short time.

1285
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:05,440
But I felt like a trader, like
almost the whole time I was at

1286
01:11:05,440 --> 01:11:08,120
high end as much respect as I
had for that company because

1287
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,680
they were always the number one
and we were always a distant

1288
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,960
number two or three.
And you know, I just want to be

1289
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,560
as good as high end, you know?
So I had just tons of admiration

1290
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,000
and respect and I loved all the
people who work there.

1291
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,400
But I always felt out of place.
I always felt like I was wearing

1292
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,120
the wrong team's clothing, you
know?

1293
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,240
And so, yeah, I get it.
I understand.

1294
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,040
Especially high end Martin, that
fight with the 600 studio color,

1295
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:37,520
there was a MEC 600 NT like new
technology or something.

1296
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:40,640
They had to like redesign the
MEC 600 to not violate some

1297
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:42,760
studio color patterns.
So there was a lot of.

1298
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,520
You know, it's crazy.
You know, trolls, God rest his

1299
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:52,760
soul, It's crazy.
The stuff that they were doing,

1300
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,400
'cause I was already out of
there by then, but I knew of the

1301
01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:00,640
dealings that they were, 'cause
my office, the new Trackman, was

1302
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:04,800
right down the road from the
Martin Building and we were, we

1303
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,880
were importing Comar at the time
and but I knew what was going on

1304
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,680
with Martin and they weren't
allowed to sell any lights, but

1305
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,240
there were hundreds of lights
going out of that building every

1306
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,160
day or every week or whatever,
you know, lots and lots of

1307
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,720
lights were shipping still.
And how they got away with that,

1308
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,880
I have no idea, but they did.
They somehow got away with it.

1309
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,960
They got past the injunctions
and stuff and we're able to

1310
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,520
continue doing business.
But it was an interesting time.

1311
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,240
That was a tough time for I
think the industry because I

1312
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:40,000
don't know patents.
Patents are good and obviously

1313
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,120
you have I'm sure some very
serious thoughts about that.

1314
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:46,840
But at the same time when
patents get in the way of the

1315
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,040
industry moving forward or
technology advancing or

1316
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,240
whatever, I think it can become
problematic.

1317
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,920
And I think, you know, companies
have to be maybe a little more

1318
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,280
willing to do licensing
agreements and stuff That makes

1319
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,120
sense.
I don't know.

1320
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,280
The business matured quite a
bit, so there's a lot of cross

1321
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:07,680
licensing going on nowadays in
companies, so.

1322
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,400
Yeah, it's true.
Yeah, it's true.

1323
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:14,360
Everybody has grown up a bit and
it isn't quite so like very

1324
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,360
light.
There was a lot of issues with

1325
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:20,840
them, with patents back then,
POG Stuart Martin back then for

1326
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,840
lots of things, so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1327
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,600
It's interesting.
So you were now out of?

1328
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,280
Work I dropped down and went
back to Eric who you know in the

1329
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:34,640
meantime left.
Martin was very successful was

1330
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:38,080
building up elation.
Yeah really from the ground up.

1331
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,480
You know back then, Roby built
built for them as an OEM

1332
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:46,680
actually and true.
Yeah, for me as well at Calmar,

1333
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,320
Calmar, we had a bunch of Roby
fixtures as well.

1334
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:53,760
Yeah, quite interesting how that
company like where they started

1335
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:58,080
from, you know, they built for
like in future light like in

1336
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:01,200
Germany, Yeah, like now look
where they are, it's amazing.

1337
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,160
Well, and it's funny, I remember
having a conversation with

1338
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:08,720
Joseph in at Rimini, and he was
in a tiny little corner in a

1339
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,720
tiny little booth.
And I was with Fausto and we

1340
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:16,320
were Calmar.
And Fausto was pissed off

1341
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:21,040
because Joseph was there and had
lights on his booth.

1342
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,840
And Fausto's like, you know, how
can you have the same lights on

1343
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:28,040
your little tiny shitty booth
here that I have right across

1344
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,520
the hall in a big booth And
we're buying thousands of these

1345
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:33,320
things from you.
How can you do this to us?

1346
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,680
And so a little bit later I went
over and I was talking with

1347
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:40,000
Joseph and I said, you know,
Joseph like you're not going to

1348
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:46,080
survive as an OEM sort of white
label builder because it's all

1349
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,480
based on price.
And as soon as pricing moves

1350
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:53,800
down, whether it's in, you know,
Latvia or China or whatever it

1351
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:56,800
is, as the price moves down,
people are not going to buy from

1352
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:58,720
you.
You know, you should have your

1353
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:00,120
own brand.
And he says, yes, we've been

1354
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:04,400
thinking about that a lot.
And there you go, well, no, it's

1355
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:06,240
definitely not my fault.
He was doing it.

1356
01:15:06,440 --> 01:15:09,000
He was, this was the start of
it, this little booth.

1357
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,080
Because I said are you doing
your own brand?

1358
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,720
Like that's if I were you,
that's what I would be doing.

1359
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:16,600
And he goes, yes, that's that's
the direction we're going.

1360
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:21,520
So, yeah, that was sort of the
beginning of the end of his OEM

1361
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:23,200
business or white label
business.

1362
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:29,560
What, So yeah, Eric basically
said, you know, hey we're we're

1363
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:32,520
expanding, we're growing, you
know, elation was really on a

1364
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:39,040
really big trajectory 20/17/18.
I'm like, this is actually

1365
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:42,680
really interesting.
So met with Toby, who's

1366
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:47,960
President and Eric and like had
a really good report with both

1367
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:53,720
of them and decided to actually
move on from the sort of console

1368
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,240
thing because it wasn't part of
that discussion actually.

1369
01:15:56,400 --> 01:16:01,360
Yeah, start doing the product
management for them on the

1370
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,280
fixture side.
Yeah, with a lot of ideas and

1371
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,560
things that they told me that
they were working on and had

1372
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:08,720
coming up and we're thinking
about.

1373
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,560
And I was like, wow, this is
like super interesting.

1374
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:12,960
I can, you know, be really part
of shaping this.

1375
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:15,920
That's interesting though,
because you had no experience

1376
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:17,360
designing light fixtures, did
you?

1377
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:22,760
I was involved at Martin in a
lot of things like DMX control.

1378
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,640
I took over some stuff when a
different product manager left

1379
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,400
with the first China factory
they had and I helped them build

1380
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,520
some of the architectural
fixtures and finish the design

1381
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,280
on that.
So at the end, in the end my

1382
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,800
work at Martin was maybe 60%
consoles and 40% fixture

1383
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:40,960
related.
So OK.

1384
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,080
Transition kind of made sense,
yeah, for me.

1385
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,040
So the console thing wasn't even
part of it.

1386
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,240
That was kind of debt that was
like, but at the same time in

1387
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:55,320
that year, high end bought now
ETC, bought high end.

1388
01:16:55,440 --> 01:16:58,840
And while elation back then was
distributing Hawks and did quite

1389
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,800
well with that, they lost that
console line and they're like

1390
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:06,240
whoa, like now we got, we just
put all the work into starting

1391
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,040
to sell desks and that was
actually quite good business.

1392
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:16,120
And then I got pulled away from
them and I'm like, well, hey, so

1393
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,480
the, you know, there's this
console line that we had and

1394
01:17:19,480 --> 01:17:21,160
Eric knew it.
Obviously it was a part of the

1395
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:25,000
original launch of that.
And I'm like, maybe there's a

1396
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,720
chance all these guys aren't
gotten Leaf.

1397
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:30,360
So if you fire all these guys in
Belgium, they're not going

1398
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,440
somewhere else the next day,
they'll get a big chunk of money

1399
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:36,800
depending how long their works.
And then they're just busy.

1400
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,480
You know what they tend to their
garden, which is why it's called

1401
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:41,600
garden leave in Europe.
So they're.

1402
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:47,240
All still, you know, on the
payroll but couldn't work

1403
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:49,320
anymore and you have to pay them
for a certain amount of time.

1404
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:52,480
So it was an opportunity to
basically take this entire team

1405
01:17:52,480 --> 01:17:57,440
and sort of buy the IP out of
Harman, which took several

1406
01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:00,080
months and was actually in
something nobody's ever done

1407
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,560
with them before.
So it was really difficult and

1408
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:05,280
big company with lots of
lawyers, but in the end they

1409
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:09,840
kind of realized that the
liability and servicing and

1410
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,600
basically also the the way that
appeal appeared to their

1411
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,560
distributors and customers
basically leaving them in the,

1412
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:21,560
you know, with worthless desk
really wasn't a great and

1413
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:25,080
they're like much better to just
you know sell it off and making

1414
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:28,920
some of the problem.
So that felt nice.

1415
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,600
I could, you know, help get all
these guys to drop back.

1416
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,080
So it was actually a couple of
months of really intense

1417
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:38,120
negotiations making sure that
these guys don't move on.

1418
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,360
So we're able to keep about 80%
of the staff.

1419
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:47,400
And then elations offers in
Europe was only 40 miles away

1420
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:53,560
from the development office.
It a coincident with so many and

1421
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,320
we're like, hey, do you maybe
want to restart this on the, you

1422
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,320
know, people that made me care
more Chris Martin In the end,

1423
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:04,320
the management dead or harm and
management didn't really care

1424
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:05,800
for it.
That's why they cut it loose.

1425
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,120
So I ended up bringing that
console line with me.

1426
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:12,960
That wasn't the original idea.
It was really for me being

1427
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:20,360
focused on the fixture side.
But was so but the the Maxis or

1428
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:24,720
the M series was basically gone
at that point, no or or was

1429
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:26,040
this?
Frozen, basically.

1430
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:27,720
They kept selling it.
They didn't tell people that

1431
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:30,640
they actually stopped all the
R&D and that they laid off

1432
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:32,240
everybody.
They kept selling the product.

1433
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:35,600
That's crazy, but the the
question I'm trying to ask is is

1434
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:40,320
so did Obsidian?
Was Obsidian just the next

1435
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:44,200
progression of M series?
Or was Obsidian a completely new

1436
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,000
line?
It's a progression of it.

1437
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:51,040
So we basically bought the IP
rights tooling when they

1438
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:53,680
basically said, hey, let's build
a new brand from scratch.

1439
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:58,320
And we took basically we started
selling M series consoles here

1440
01:19:58,480 --> 01:20:02,560
at Elation for six months or so.
And basically part of the deal

1441
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,040
was that we could use the name
for a while, but then you had to

1442
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:08,320
rebrand it.
So Eric worked with a marketing

1443
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,080
agency and came up with this
whole compute complete new.

1444
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:15,320
Identity and rebuild it from
scratch.

1445
01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:18,720
So that's how the city and
control systems was launched.

1446
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:24,160
Yeah, interesting.
June, I think June 2018.

1447
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:27,480
So it took about six months to
really chew through all the

1448
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,560
legal things and get everybody
rehired and build a new office

1449
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,000
and move manufacturing over.
So, so.

1450
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:38,720
Where manufacturing moved from
where to where?

1451
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:44,960
From Martin in Denmark.
And then not an OEM that we work

1452
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:46,160
with.
OK.

1453
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:47,720
Interesting.
Yeah.

1454
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,320
And you know, from everything I
hear and I don't know anything

1455
01:20:51,440 --> 01:20:54,760
about consoles necessarily
except how much they cost and

1456
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:57,640
and who buys the most of them or
whatever, because that's my

1457
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:01,840
world.
But everyone I know who use

1458
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,360
them, love them.
And you know, I always told Eric

1459
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:10,760
that I thought it was such a
great market to be sort of

1460
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,320
underneath where the real shit
fight was going to happen, like

1461
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:19,960
the MA and AVO and ETC and
Flying Pig or whatever.

1462
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:24,520
Like to be just one jump down
from all of those guys And you

1463
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:26,960
know where there isn't a real
clear leader.

1464
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,360
You know, some people buy the
small AVO stuff, some people buy

1465
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,720
Campsis, some people buy, you
know, whatever.

1466
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:37,720
But it just seems like, you
know, that's a market that's

1467
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,680
very ripe to be, you know,
dominated.

1468
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:44,600
And you guys seem to be doing
pretty well.

1469
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:47,680
We are.
We're really quite happy when

1470
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:52,080
the guys have finally, you know,
have more control of what they

1471
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:53,760
do.
And it's not such an uphill

1472
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:56,320
fight with a management that
really doesn't believe in it,

1473
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,880
but it's sort of kind of, you
know, dragging it along.

1474
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:01,840
So yeah, no, it's nice.
We're really committed.

1475
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,760
We hired actually recently,
Corey, he worked, he was a

1476
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,640
salesman from table lights.
He would also be a great one to

1477
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,720
talk to, by the way.
Yeah, except I wouldn't be able

1478
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:13,960
to talk.
I like to talk every once in a

1479
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:15,520
while too, and he wouldn't let
me.

1480
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:20,280
Yeah, he's great.
I really enjoy working with him

1481
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,080
so much, yeah.
Coy's such a nice.

1482
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:27,320
Guy all these console companies
but high end DTC all this being

1483
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:30,840
like one thing now and then
campers and Chauvet then Robbie

1484
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:32,880
just bought Avolites isn't?
It crazy.

1485
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:35,120
All these like lighting
companies have been have these

1486
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:39,920
bolt on acquisitions now to put
control systems into the

1487
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:44,240
portfolio so.
Well, I think it starts when you

1488
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:50,480
know like maybe it was act and
and MA lighting being together

1489
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:52,000
that started to cause the
problem.

1490
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,800
I don't know.
But like I think it starts when

1491
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,840
you start like when you have a
competitor who can offer a whole

1492
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:00,560
package and you can't and you
need to use one of those

1493
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,400
competitors products, it becomes
very uncomfortable obviously.

1494
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:09,960
So it's nice when you can spec
an entire package into a school

1495
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:14,200
or a church or a whatever and
the console company isn't going

1496
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:17,320
hey, but by our moving lights,
not these elation ones, by our

1497
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:19,200
airton moving lights or
whatever.

1498
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:22,640
Yeah, my etc does this really
well.

1499
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,400
Well, that's basically a full.
Turn of course, yeah, yeah, of

1500
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:27,400
course the.
Rigging part and the Power

1501
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:30,000
Distribution and you pretty much
don't have to leave the

1502
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:33,760
ecosystem and now when you start
like hey, but I also can sell

1503
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:35,840
you something here for maybe a
bit better price.

1504
01:23:36,440 --> 01:23:39,960
I think it's not as big a deal
now that dimming is sort of out

1505
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:44,040
of the picture because dimming
systems, you know we're very

1506
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:47,880
complex and and you know there
was a lot to it and they were

1507
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:51,120
all these custom systems that
ETC was building out or

1508
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:53,520
whatever.
Now that that's gone, it's

1509
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:57,400
really down to a fixture and and
a light, you know, and you can

1510
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:01,320
use anybody's lights and any or
I should say a console and a

1511
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:04,480
light and you can use anybody's
lights or console and you know,

1512
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:07,880
of course still rigging in power
systems and everything else but

1513
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:09,080
our power.
I think the.

1514
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:13,040
Console background has really
primed me well for the job I do

1515
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:14,400
now.
And there's so many other guys

1516
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:16,640
that I know that come from the
console side.

1517
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,720
And then our product managers or
product developers for fixtures.

1518
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:26,200
Yeah, JP, a friend of mine,
Michael Marcus, who was at

1519
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,080
Martin is not Airy.
He was actually the support guy

1520
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:31,680
for Max's in Germany.
Interesting.

1521
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:36,800
So we all tend to come, you
know, being able to talk to the

1522
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:39,440
like programmers and
understanding how they interact

1523
01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:41,760
with fixtures makes you really,
really, really good.

1524
01:24:42,440 --> 01:24:45,080
Yeah, lighting fixtures, I
think.

1525
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:51,120
So your your work day now like
you started, you were hired to

1526
01:24:51,440 --> 01:24:55,440
head up their their lighting
fixture design or whatever,

1527
01:24:55,440 --> 01:24:58,520
which I guess means that you're
back and forth to China quite a

1528
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:02,560
lot.
Do you guys have engineers

1529
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:06,240
positioned in China or are all
the engineers positioned in the

1530
01:25:06,480 --> 01:25:09,640
US and have to go over there to
communicate?

1531
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:12,840
With we have engineers in Europe
and.

1532
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:17,520
In the US, yeah.
And we have the QC in that deals

1533
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:20,680
for the factories and basically
approves shipments and make sure

1534
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:24,320
that stuff is, yeah, on the way
we need it to.

1535
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:27,960
So everyone needs to fly over
there is the short answer

1536
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,520
everybody needs.
To go spend lots of time, lots

1537
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:32,800
like.
Yeah, yeah.

1538
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:35,120
I assume well, and these aren't
short flights either.

1539
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:37,280
I mean, at least well, no,
you're in Minnesota.

1540
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:38,640
I was going to say at least
you're in Lai.

1541
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:40,720
Wish it.
Would be 4 hours.

1542
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,480
It's 15 hours.
Yeah, yeah.

1543
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,800
Well, and of course I know Eric
and and Toby and you're flying

1544
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,720
first class, you know, not even
not even business class.

1545
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,000
You're flying in first class.
You know you have your own suite

1546
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:54,560
on the plane I.
Wish.

1547
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:58,840
Yeah, Toby's jet.
Toby's jet doesn't take you over

1548
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:00,320
to Guangzhou.
Yep.

1549
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,600
That that one got sold off a few
years ago.

1550
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,120
Jesus.
Oh, Jess, No helicopter, No.

1551
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,200
Martin used to have a boat I
heard in.

1552
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:11,360
Yeah, yeah, that was Harvey
Hazelwood.

1553
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:13,840
Harvey Hazelwood.
That was after I left.

1554
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:18,240
But yeah, Harvey and Woody went
out and bought a company boat

1555
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,520
and got fired not too long after
that, I think.

1556
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,880
Yeah, we that was ugly.
We're very reasonable.

1557
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:28,600
It's priming economy for me
around the world and then well,

1558
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:32,640
you get upgrades, but yeah, it's
a lot of travelling, it's a lot

1559
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:35,240
of time away from your family.
It is.

1560
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:37,960
It's hard.
It's not as glamorous as it

1561
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:41,360
seems.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's hard.

1562
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:44,680
It's, you know, people say, Oh
my God, it's amazing.

1563
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:48,440
You get to go to all these
places and it's, yeah, it's nice

1564
01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:52,080
to travel until you're going
back and forth like a, you know,

1565
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:54,360
like a milk run back and forth
to China.

1566
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:56,920
You know, it's that's real
travel at that point.

1567
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,920
Like, that's tiring.
China in March I was home for

1568
01:26:59,920 --> 01:27:04,320
two days, watched my laundry and
then went to Germany for 12 days

1569
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:06,800
and then meetings afterwards
and.

1570
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:10,040
Then that's what I did. 21 days
in March so.

1571
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:14,040
I did that in my heyday of
Martin, where I'd be going, you

1572
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:17,760
know, from here to Denmark or or
Comar as well, especially when

1573
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:19,920
we bought Comar.
But I'd go to Denmark and then

1574
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:22,480
back here and then to China for
a couple of days.

1575
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:26,200
Back to the LA office, back
here, back to Denmark or or

1576
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,200
Italy or whatever.
I mean, I've done it probably

1577
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,920
not for the length of time that
you've been doing it, but I

1578
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:36,960
loved it sometimes and really
just couldn't stand it at times.

1579
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,640
Like when you just really wanted
to be able to see your kids

1580
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:42,280
baseball game or whatever, you
know, not that my kid ever

1581
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:45,880
played baseball, but, you know,
sometimes you just want to be

1582
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:51,360
home.
You know, like, like, probably

1583
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:54,760
you ain't much.
You know, it's a bit of a unique

1584
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:57,520
job, you know?
Yes, I mean, I'm fortunate

1585
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:02,120
because I really love what I do
and maybe only 7-8 people that

1586
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:03,960
do what I do around the world.
It's kind.

1587
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:07,080
Of Yeah, that is cool.
We all know each other too.

1588
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:09,440
Like most people think we all
hate each other, but it's

1589
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:12,560
actually quite the opposite.
We have really good

1590
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:16,360
relationships.
There's a lot of work behind the

1591
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,040
scenes that people that you
don't know and like protocols

1592
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:22,800
and picture libraries.
So I just had a very long

1593
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:27,240
meeting with a competing company
about copyright things and

1594
01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:31,120
software getting hacked and how
we help each other to prevent it

1595
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:33,080
and better learn from each
other.

1596
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:36,880
And it's like, we know like,
hey, we've seen this, you know,

1597
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,120
somebody trying to hack your
software and then we tell other

1598
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:42,320
people how, what they're trying
so everybody can be better.

1599
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,200
So there's a lot of behind the
scenes that people don't see and

1600
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,480
they all think we're really
tough competitors on the front,

1601
01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:51,280
but we also can go and have a
beer at the bottom after.

1602
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:51,960
Work.
Yeah.

1603
01:28:52,440 --> 01:28:55,960
What about the counterfeiters?
Like, have you seen this now

1604
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:59,440
infamous post that was on one of
the lighting groups on Facebook

1605
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:03,680
over the past couple of weeks?
Where I almost feel sorry for

1606
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:06,440
the guy, some guy comes out and
says, hey, I just have a

1607
01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:11,640
question for the group the
church that I go to is asking me

1608
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:13,560
to work on.
You saw that?

1609
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:17,760
They have constantly those polls
and then people get just like

1610
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,200
decimated by like, Oh my God.
How good the guy was torn.

1611
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:22,360
What?
Kind of church, are you?

1612
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:24,360
In that case, it was kind of
interesting.

1613
01:29:24,440 --> 01:29:26,040
Yeah, because.
Morality of.

1614
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:30,760
You know, a church basically
buying stolen, you know, IP.

1615
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:32,880
But the people that bought it
don't even know.

1616
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:34,480
I don't think so.
And they're like.

1617
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:38,120
Oh no, they knew it was clear.
They knew it was contentional.

1618
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:41,520
Yeah, I mean it was, it was very
clear on that one.

1619
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:44,400
And again, I felt sorry for the
guy because he was just a bit

1620
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,880
naive and and gullible I guess.
Perhaps, but.

1621
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:50,800
But is that a real problem for
you?

1622
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:55,040
Like, are you seeing elation?
Branded counterfeits.

1623
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:57,720
No, we haven't really seen that
too much.

1624
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:03,960
I mean, we see products, we see
ideas taken over.

1625
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:06,360
That's actually the
counterfeiting is maybe not as

1626
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:09,480
prevalent where it's like, hey,
it's exactly a MEC 2K that looks

1627
01:30:09,480 --> 01:30:13,320
like MEC 2000 with a fine art
stick on it that that doesn't

1628
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,360
happen as much anymore.
Yeah, it looks like the Mario

1629
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:21,240
2000 or Mario 3000.
Yeah, total knockoffs, yeah.

1630
01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:27,120
That that kind of moved on even
like the Avalite copies are not

1631
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:29,560
really Aval lights anymore.
They're actually starting to

1632
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:31,760
have their own software on their
own designs.

1633
01:30:32,440 --> 01:30:35,760
So the market over there that
was very much into copying

1634
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:38,280
everything also matured I think
quite a bit now.

1635
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:40,880
Yeah, they'd be designing a lot
of their own things these.

1636
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,280
Are the.
Consultation from but then you

1637
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:48,480
could say BYD maybe takes a lot
of inspiration from Tesla and

1638
01:30:48,480 --> 01:30:49,920
then sort of does their own
thing.

1639
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:53,560
No, there's always, yeah,
there's always gonna be some of

1640
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:55,960
that.
But when you're blatantly

1641
01:30:55,960 --> 01:31:01,720
calling something an MA two or a
grand MA two, and you know, it's

1642
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:06,000
basically the same thing, it
just is a little cheaper, but

1643
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:09,160
it's the same basic thing.
It does the same basic

1644
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:12,400
functions.
And you know, from what I

1645
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:13,960
understand, it's even closer
than that.

1646
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:18,680
Like it's pretty much identical.
But you can tell, you know, So

1647
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:21,880
yeah, I mean that's that's.
Gotten a little less like it's

1648
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:26,200
not quite as like there's a
trade show that we go to which

1649
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:29,200
is like for all the purchasers
and buyers and it used to be a

1650
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,520
whole booth of MA 2 clones and
another booth of complete able

1651
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,440
like clones and they were
identical, could not tell them

1652
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:38,600
apart and you really have to
like start looking at very small

1653
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:41,120
details to see a difference.
That's brutal.

1654
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:42,880
It's less of that now.
Like it.

1655
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:48,640
There's a lot more own designs
and less of this blatant

1656
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:51,120
cloning.
Well, even on the fixture side,

1657
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:55,120
like I, you know, Sharpies were
the big one for a long time

1658
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:58,480
where, you know, just these
companies and again, they didn't

1659
01:31:58,480 --> 01:32:01,760
even try to call it a barpy or a
farpy or anything.

1660
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:04,160
They just called it a Sharpie,
you know, by our Sharpies.

1661
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:09,880
They're only $300 or whatever.
And yeah, I'm not seeing it

1662
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:13,240
quite as much right now, but
like now you're getting more,

1663
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:17,320
you know, just goofy branded
stuff that's being sold on

1664
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:20,240
Amazon that looks a lot like
other things, but at least it's

1665
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:22,240
not called the same thing
anymore.

1666
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,800
Yeah.
So I wanted to, I really wanted

1667
01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:31,520
to ask you one really big topic,
which is AI.

1668
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:39,160
And you know I'm I'm super like
I think AI is something where

1669
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:47,240
you're either afraid of it or or
you embrace it and you have it.

1670
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:50,600
It's you have to make a choice.
Like you really do have to make

1671
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:52,600
a choice.
You either embrace it or you

1672
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:55,280
fear it and either way it's
coming.

1673
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:59,240
So you know you either you
either have to find ways to get

1674
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:02,520
ahead of it like get on the bus
or get run over by the bus.

1675
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:05,360
Basically is is how I look at AI
right now.

1676
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:10,080
So I've really been doing a lot
of research on my own end and

1677
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:13,200
using it daily for different
things.

1678
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:15,920
And you know, in some ways it's
become my best employee

1679
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:20,280
recently, believe it or not.
Like just I will sit and have

1680
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:27,120
long conversations with ChatGPT
and end up with a very solid

1681
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:32,840
legal agreement or you know a
marketing plan or whatever it is

1682
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:36,480
and you still have to read
through it and you still have to

1683
01:33:36,480 --> 01:33:40,720
tweak it a little bit here and
there but pretty close And you

1684
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,800
know, so I love talking to
different people who I think are

1685
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:47,120
really smart and and getting
their ideas and thoughts on it,

1686
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,000
especially as it relates to our
industry.

1687
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,040
And you know example a couple
weeks ago I had Richard Cadena

1688
01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:56,720
on I'm sure you know Richard and
Richard said one of the very

1689
01:33:56,720 --> 01:34:00,800
first uses that he found for it
was he writes these JavaScript

1690
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:04,040
things for figuring out
electrical.

1691
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:08,840
I forget what it is, but and he
says it takes him a long time to

1692
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:14,280
write these JavaScript and he
said that's the first thing he

1693
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:18,160
did and he can do what took him
weeks before or at least many

1694
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:21,880
many hours he can do now in 1520
minutes.

1695
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:29,040
But there's two sides to that.
One of us for me and my

1696
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:31,000
workflow.
I've been starting to look into

1697
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:35,320
other Copilot and ChatGPT.
Yeah, especially automating,

1698
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:40,280
like the daily barrage of emails
and basically triaging of things

1699
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:43,600
and starting to automate some of
that stuff.

1700
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:47,120
So that's one thing where I've
actually just yesterday I've

1701
01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:50,240
read through a lot of the new
Outlook that Microsoft has been

1702
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:53,440
promoting.
There's a lot of AI type things

1703
01:34:53,440 --> 01:34:56,080
in there where it just creates
events automatically and

1704
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:59,480
calendar things and it reminds
you like, hey, you didn't reply

1705
01:34:59,480 --> 01:35:03,480
to this e-mail that you read two
days ago and then you didn't do

1706
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:04,960
anything with that, so oh,
that's cool.

1707
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:06,480
That kind of stuff was really
helpful.

1708
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:08,880
Yeah.
Because, you know, we all get.

1709
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:11,360
Well, it's life hack kind of
stuff, yeah.

1710
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:16,440
And then I had also discussions
with especially on the like

1711
01:35:16,440 --> 01:35:19,520
console site where you know this
is like maestro thing that's

1712
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:23,320
been popping up over and over
like you know, better sound to

1713
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:24,920
light kind of thing and people
like yeah you.

1714
01:35:25,480 --> 01:35:26,520
Don't.
Need a designer?

1715
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:29,320
Got away and will never be as
good as a guy.

1716
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:35,640
I'm like, my opinion is that
these are tools and used right,

1717
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,880
that they're huge advantage.
I think for us because there's

1718
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,120
so many mundane tasks that you
do every time you build a Rick

1719
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:45,960
and program and patch and build
presets and colors, There's so

1720
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:49,880
many repetitive tasks that you
could actually automate away and

1721
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,600
help the creative sites to
actually actually spend.

1722
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:57,680
So right now, maybe 7080% of the
time is wasted just getting the

1723
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:00,720
stuff together and then you have
very little time at the end to

1724
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:02,920
do actually something, the stuff
that's fun.

1725
01:36:03,480 --> 01:36:07,200
There's so many technical things
that you have to worry about and

1726
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:11,680
deal with.
There's so many tasks that you

1727
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:14,800
do over and over and over again,
and you saw a bit on MA.

1728
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:17,440
There's a ton of these like
macros that people wrote to even

1729
01:36:17,440 --> 01:36:21,320
deal with the massive amount of
fixtures and cloning into

1730
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,320
festivals.
And I think that's a really big

1731
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:28,560
opportunity for AI to take away
a lot of that and free people up

1732
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:32,160
to be actually really be
lighting designers again and not

1733
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:35,560
command line entry, right,
Exactly.

1734
01:36:36,200 --> 01:36:40,600
Who wants to type hundreds and
hundreds of lines of basic code

1735
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,360
almost into a desk over and over
to do something?

1736
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:48,320
Yeah, the amount of pictures,
pixels, whatever it is nowadays

1737
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:51,520
you have was just so
overwhelming that I think

1738
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:57,600
there's a system through AI type
automation and bots be a major

1739
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:59,040
part.
And I think in, I don't know,

1740
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,600
10-15 years you're going to look
back and say, well, that is like

1741
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:04,480
super dated.
The way people work, that's

1742
01:37:04,480 --> 01:37:07,080
crazy.
And they had to 100% all that.

1743
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:09,840
Are you, like, serious?
But I think it's going to go

1744
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:12,560
further than that.
Like I think, I think what you

1745
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,200
and I like to talk about is
these things.

1746
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:17,760
It's a tool, it's just going to
help the lighting designer.

1747
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:23,240
But I think it like in all other
parts of business, I think it's

1748
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:27,600
going to go further than that.
And I think that you know what

1749
01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:31,400
used to take a designer three or
four days or let's call it a

1750
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:34,800
week to program, you'll be able
to program in a day because

1751
01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:39,640
there's going to be a lot more
AI involved.

1752
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:43,480
But you know, I think it's even
going to go as far as maybe even

1753
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:48,640
breaching designer IP or
whatever you want to call it

1754
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:55,280
where you know you'll be able to
say, you know, act like Mark

1755
01:37:55,280 --> 01:38:01,280
Brickman and and and design A
show for a Pink Floyd tribute

1756
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:08,120
band based on Mark Brickman's
Division Bell tour in 1995 or

1757
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:09,280
whatever it was.
Right.

1758
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:12,280
And.
Opportunity designers could

1759
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:15,680
also, you know, sell their way
of working.

1760
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:20,240
And hey, you buy this plugin and
you you may be a crappy bar

1761
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:24,360
brand in Sydney, but hey, look,
your lighting show looks awesome

1762
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:26,320
because you just have to buy the
stuff and hang it and the

1763
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:28,880
computer will give you a perfect
show on your.

1764
01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:32,800
Well, again that's that's the
concept of embracing it versus

1765
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:34,320
fearing it, right.
And.

1766
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,680
I mean, there's so many terrible
lighting things that you see all

1767
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:40,760
the time.
You go to like smaller venues

1768
01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:44,040
and clubs, and they don't have
the money to really do it,

1769
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:45,920
right?
So they buy a lot of gear that's

1770
01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:49,000
kind of crappily programmed.
The guys putting it in don't

1771
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:52,120
have time to do it, right.
Yeah, if you just put your

1772
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:55,120
laptop over the camera and it
does it all for you, you could,

1773
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:57,000
you know.
Actually, I think stuff will

1774
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:58,960
look a lot better in the future
than what we've.

1775
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:00,200
Seen.
No, you're right.

1776
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:02,760
Because here's what happens.
Even if you hire a professional

1777
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:06,120
designer for that club and he
goes in and programs it on a an

1778
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:11,680
Obsidian console, for example,
as soon as he leaves, you're

1779
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:14,400
paying less and less and less
and less money for the guy

1780
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:19,240
that's operating that desk on a
nightly basis, and eventually

1781
01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:22,360
you end up with a bartender
running your lights, right?

1782
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:25,000
You've got a bartender who turns
them on at the beginning of the

1783
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:27,840
night and turns them off at the
end of the night, and maybe they

1784
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:30,160
move a couple times throughout
the night or whatever.

1785
01:39:30,480 --> 01:39:32,800
So you'd be better off with an
automated system.

1786
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:35,840
There's actually not even enough
people around.

1787
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:37,840
Look how many cruise ships are
getting built.

1788
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:42,560
There's so many venues that all
have events and things going on

1789
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:46,080
in the comedy club and they all
need professionals running it.

1790
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:48,120
There's not enough people around
to really do it.

1791
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:50,920
So yeah, there are tools that to
automate that.

1792
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:55,040
So you have some jazz band, the
tours or casino circuit or the

1793
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,360
cruise ship circuit.
Then you show up with your USB

1794
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:01,680
stick or clouds upload and you
say, hey, you know, we're here

1795
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:03,520
and at all.
You know, you get a show that

1796
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:05,280
you love.
It looks great no matter where

1797
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:07,400
you go.
There's so many opportunities I

1798
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:09,200
think in that.
So I don't fear it.

1799
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:12,360
I think really embrace it.
Yeah, you.

1800
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:15,040
Know regardless of people fear
it or not, they're going to get

1801
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:17,960
steamrolled or they'll be part
of it and they can, they can

1802
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:20,040
kind of choose on what site
you're going to be on.

1803
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:24,840
Well, and I think that there's a
part of our industry, you know,

1804
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:30,440
content creators, you know,
video content or or even just

1805
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:34,240
still image content creators I
think are going to be in a bit

1806
01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:36,840
of trouble.
You know, because you know, a

1807
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:40,680
creative director is going to be
able to just use AI and say

1808
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:45,080
here's the look that I want and
boom, they're going to get it.

1809
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:48,520
And you know, a designer friend
of mine just sent me some images

1810
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:56,240
a couple days ago of a images
just content graphic stuff that

1811
01:40:56,240 --> 01:41:03,840
was on a an LED wall for a tour
and it was created with AI on

1812
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:06,480
site during production
rehearsals.

1813
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:11,480
Full motion graphics, you know
all being controlled from front

1814
01:41:11,480 --> 01:41:15,280
of house while the show was
being queued, they were

1815
01:41:15,280 --> 01:41:18,920
basically sending brand new
graphics to the screen.

1816
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:22,880
It was just incredible and it
was all completely done by AI

1817
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,000
so.
Yeah, I mean, you see all these

1818
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:28,320
like pixel control systems out
there.

1819
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:31,960
There's some attempts on like
generative things now, but

1820
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:35,040
they're all still computer
things, generating stuff.

1821
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:39,600
But the sort of real generative
AI that you have, your pixel

1822
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:44,040
mapping is like in real time.
Every time you play a song, it

1823
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,640
looks kind of different, but you
know, has the same vibe

1824
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:48,880
throughout the tour.
There's some amazing stuff

1825
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:50,760
that's impossible to do right
now.

1826
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:54,280
Yeah, I think actually
everything will look better in

1827
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:56,560
the future.
Yeah, yeah.

1828
01:41:56,560 --> 01:42:02,080
I mean, you know, to me, like,
again, it's, you know, I don't

1829
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:04,720
want my kids on social media.
My kids aren't going to use

1830
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:06,160
social media.
You want to bet?

1831
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:08,800
You know, I mean, they're going
to use it whether you like it or

1832
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:09,960
not.
They're going to use it and

1833
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:11,640
they're going to spend a lot of
time on it.

1834
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:16,200
And it's like I always tried to
curb my son's use of cell phones

1835
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:20,280
when he was younger and limit
how much time he could spend.

1836
01:42:20,280 --> 01:42:24,000
Every day they figure out how to
shut those things off that limit

1837
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:27,400
their phone usage and limit app
usage and all that stuff.

1838
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:28,920
The kids are way smarter than we
are.

1839
01:42:29,440 --> 01:42:33,200
And you know, and then somebody
puts out an app that undoes that

1840
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:36,360
last app that you put on there.
So they're going to get away

1841
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,320
with it.
So you just have to teach, you

1842
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:42,280
know them good things and and
create a good solid foundation

1843
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:44,480
in the kid and hope that they
make good choices.

1844
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:47,560
But you know, aside from that,
you can't put the genie back in

1845
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:48,960
the bottle.
AI is.

1846
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:52,920
Here music business.
You know when the all this MP3

1847
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:56,040
downloading started and
everybody's like Oh my God, it's

1848
01:42:56,080 --> 01:42:59,440
going to I don't know if did it
really you know ruin it did it

1849
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:01,920
you know I don't know.
Nowadays seems to be more bands

1850
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:04,040
than ever touring around.
The shows are getting bigger and

1851
01:43:04,040 --> 01:43:09,120
bigger on a money mate and the.
Life, it's just different, you

1852
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:13,720
know, the whole economy shifted
the the music and band economy

1853
01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:16,000
shifted.
It shifted from, you know,

1854
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:18,880
making money on the recorded
music to the recorded music

1855
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:22,920
creates the fans, which then
create the money on the live

1856
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,160
events.
And it's just shifted.

1857
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:28,400
It's evolved into a different
model.

1858
01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:30,840
And I'm not saying one's better
than the other, but we're also

1859
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:33,200
not going back.
Well, I was gonna say we're not

1860
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:35,840
going back to vinyl, but we kind
of are in a lot of ways.

1861
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,080
Like, I'm buying a turntable
this year when I get to my house

1862
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:42,400
up in Canada.
Yeah, I decided that months ago.

1863
01:43:42,400 --> 01:43:46,280
When I get to Canada next time,
I'm getting a turntable and I'm

1864
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:50,720
gonna go rebuy all the same
albums that I gave away about 25

1865
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:52,280
years ago.
Or 30 years ago.

1866
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:54,960
I'm not that, actually.
I'm gonna go buy them for 20

1867
01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:57,360
bucks, yeah.
Yeah, stuff.

1868
01:43:57,360 --> 01:43:59,520
I run CD.
I'm like, I kind of want to own

1869
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:02,560
this on vinyl, Yeah.
And actually now I enjoy just

1870
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:04,440
putting one.
Because one thing is when you do

1871
01:44:04,440 --> 01:44:06,800
the Spotify or even the CD
player, but then you can just

1872
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:08,400
skip forwards on songs all the
time.

1873
01:44:08,440 --> 01:44:11,280
Yeah, with vinyl, you put it in,
you kind of like enjoy it the

1874
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:13,960
way it was put together of.
Course, yeah, yeah.

1875
01:44:14,360 --> 01:44:18,560
Well, and it's a much more.
It's just a different, more

1876
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:21,960
kinetic thing.
Like the whole putting an album

1877
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,360
on a turntable, dropping the
needle in the groove, It's just

1878
01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:27,400
a whole thing.
And I'll probably get sick of it

1879
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:29,480
real quick and go straight back
to my Sonos.

1880
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:33,400
But you know, I I think it's
going to be really fun to just

1881
01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:36,720
go, oh, I remember this record.
I'm going to put this on and

1882
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:40,760
listen to the whole damn thing.
Purchased an old jukebox,

1883
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:44,720
actually like I found an old UC
book that I got for like $150.00

1884
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:48,200
from somebody other garage.
Wow, my restoring project.

1885
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:51,840
Wow, that's so.
Cool pinballs.

1886
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:55,480
And I have old ones because I
like the mechanical things and

1887
01:44:55,480 --> 01:44:57,160
just like I enjoy working on
them.

1888
01:44:57,200 --> 01:44:59,480
It's like.
Oh, that's really cool in your

1889
01:44:59,480 --> 01:45:02,600
spare time.
Yes, in my little spare time I

1890
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:04,440
have.
You don't have any kids,

1891
01:45:04,440 --> 01:45:05,400
obviously, do you?
I.

1892
01:45:06,120 --> 01:45:08,520
Have no kids.
Yeah, that's obvious because

1893
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:11,960
you'd have 0 spare time because
whenever you finally do get

1894
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,240
home, they'd suck up all of your
time.

1895
01:45:14,240 --> 01:45:16,920
And you know, it's like I used
to love boating on the weekends.

1896
01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:20,080
That went away when my son
started driving race cars or go

1897
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:23,840
karts at the time because that's
where all my weekends went to

1898
01:45:23,840 --> 01:45:27,360
him.
So but back to this AI thing.

1899
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:31,400
So give me some ideas.
And I'm not asking for any, you

1900
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:34,760
know, secret information or
anything, but what are the types

1901
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:39,000
of things that we could expect
to see in consoles, Not just

1902
01:45:39,000 --> 01:45:41,560
yours, in MA consoles, AVO
consoles.

1903
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:44,040
Yeah, we had actually in that
module, we had a whole project

1904
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:48,160
where we looked at how can we
automate this huge task of

1905
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:52,000
focusing a show every day.
So you hang it like 2 meters off

1906
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:56,280
and a little angled and the roof
didn't fit and your process cut

1907
01:45:56,280 --> 01:45:58,960
short.
Well, now you've got to spend 3

1908
01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:03,720
hours of little left, little up.
It seems trivial like how much

1909
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,640
effort it is to make sure with
like 400 movers looked good

1910
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:10,960
again.
And we looked into all sorts of

1911
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:14,280
things like sensors.
And now with AI and cameras,

1912
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,480
there'd be actually what you do
with your eyes, like, hey, this

1913
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:20,120
angle looks correct.
I think there'll be a lot of

1914
01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:22,880
automation where you don't like,
you just set it up, push a

1915
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:25,440
button that goes, and it'll be
done.

1916
01:46:25,440 --> 01:46:28,000
And you have a perfectly focused
show that looks exactly the way.

1917
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:29,320
Yeah.
Both the.

1918
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:34,280
Yeah, so a focusing.
Scanning rig, you know, knowing

1919
01:46:34,480 --> 01:46:37,720
what fixtures you hung and what
positions and what angles.

1920
01:46:38,480 --> 01:46:41,160
Lots of things that you have to
do manually at right now.

1921
01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:43,600
I think that'll be the first
thing we're gonna see that we

1922
01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:49,720
take some of these tasks away
and basically so that is

1923
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:52,640
probably the first phase.
And then there's gonna be a lot

1924
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:56,880
of connection between the
manufacturers and the console

1925
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:02,000
side because you have to talk to
each other and be aware, you

1926
01:47:02,040 --> 01:47:06,160
know, we are at the moment,
which isn't great, there's we're

1927
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:09,880
part of the whole group of new
protocols coming out.

1928
01:47:10,040 --> 01:47:11,920
What's the one that I'm trying
to think of?

1929
01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:15,240
What's the one guy?
Oh my God.

1930
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:18,400
I've had him on the podcast and
I can't remember his name or

1931
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:20,560
even where he's from.
He might be Dutch.

1932
01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:25,120
Oh my God.
Or German.

1933
01:47:25,240 --> 01:47:28,440
I don't know.
Maybe even Belgian.

1934
01:47:28,720 --> 01:47:33,160
I don't remember his name.
He's got his own protocol and

1935
01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:35,040
they came out with it right
before COVID.

1936
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:36,600
What?
Cluster.

1937
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:39,040
Yes, cluster exactly.
Well.

1938
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:42,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Such a cool guy.

1939
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:47,440
And he was on, I think he was on
my podcast during COVID, and I

1940
01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:50,040
felt so bad for him because, you
know, you're just trying to

1941
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:54,920
launch this protocol at the
worst possible time ever, you

1942
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:57,520
know?
And so I don't even know.

1943
01:47:57,520 --> 01:48:02,840
Is he still at it?
Yeah, 'cause that seemed pretty

1944
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:04,920
ingenious.
And Frankfurt and actually had a

1945
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:07,600
quite a nice booth showing off
progress on this.

1946
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:11,960
So yeah, yeah, they launched it
by about the worst time with

1947
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:14,280
this COVID thing.
Yeah, brutal.

1948
01:48:14,480 --> 01:48:17,040
Just brutal.
And, you know, yeah, we talked a

1949
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:19,520
lot during COVID.
You know, just ideas.

1950
01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:23,760
To raise for sure, you know, the
interconnection between the

1951
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:25,600
fixtures and the console.
There'd be a lot more

1952
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:29,320
intelligence in that, and AI
will have a pretty big role, I

1953
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:30,440
think, in that.
Yeah.

1954
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:34,880
The other thing is basically a
lot of programming stuff was

1955
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:37,240
just mundane.
You're like, OK, I want to have

1956
01:48:37,240 --> 01:48:41,640
this corner in this color and I
want to do something here, and

1957
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:43,320
it's all very mathematical right
now.

1958
01:48:43,320 --> 01:48:45,840
You take a chunk of lights and
do something and do another

1959
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:48,000
chunk of lights and do
something, and you divide it by

1960
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:53,120
three and do some other things.
And it's all very also very

1961
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:55,920
still this command line typing
in things.

1962
01:48:56,480 --> 01:49:00,080
I think we'll be able to just
interact with their systems much

1963
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:06,320
more dynamically and you know,
in a some sort of AI bots will

1964
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:09,760
help you do these things that
take you hours to type in.

1965
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,960
And if you look, you talk to
designers that do these old

1966
01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:17,120
tours in the 80s where they had
to like really have tables and

1967
01:49:17,120 --> 01:49:20,640
mathematically devised up on
their very light desk or their

1968
01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:23,440
icon desk, how to write specific
chases.

1969
01:49:23,440 --> 01:49:26,800
So these, like, cool circles for
Pink Floyd, actually.

1970
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:29,400
Worked so I remember it.
Crazy amount of math?

1971
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:31,600
Yeah.
Kind of, probably like trivial

1972
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:35,960
for computers to do, yeah.
And it's even much easier for

1973
01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:41,080
like a generative AI bot.
So I think we're gonna do a lot

1974
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:46,960
more of these things that help
you basically create and you

1975
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:48,800
know.
Your your.

1976
01:49:49,040 --> 01:49:51,080
Poor judgment on what you pick.
It's still going to look

1977
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:52,120
terrible.
Yeah.

1978
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:55,680
So you're still involved in that
process, but there's just a lot

1979
01:49:55,680 --> 01:50:00,120
of the boring stuff that this
will take away, I think.

1980
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:02,920
Yeah.
So you're really focused on the

1981
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:05,960
the more tedious stuff.
I I still wonder if it's going

1982
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:08,400
to go further than that.
You know, like I I wonder at

1983
01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:12,760
what point you know does do
consoles program themselves like

1984
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:15,720
you know at what point do
consoles not need buttons and

1985
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:18,440
faders on them?
At what at what point does a

1986
01:50:18,440 --> 01:50:24,600
designer just say, hey, you know
the the Proteus Max on the on

1987
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:30,600
the, you know, upstage Truss
red, you know, on the singer,

1988
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:36,160
whatever, you know, like or
remember that thing I did back

1989
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:40,920
on Coldplay in 2014?
I want to do that on this one

1990
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:42,760
right here.
I want to make that look here,

1991
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:44,800
boom, you know, there it is.
Right.

1992
01:50:45,400 --> 01:50:49,000
So yeah, yeah.
But it'll happen probably

1993
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:51,120
slowly.
I think, you know, there's

1994
01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:55,400
probably a a lot of on the
console side and and again, you

1995
01:50:55,400 --> 01:50:58,160
don't have to confirm or deny
this, but I would think from a

1996
01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:02,240
manufacturer standpoint you have
to walk easily at this point

1997
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:06,480
because everyone is a little bit
nervous, you know, Certainly

1998
01:51:07,160 --> 01:51:12,120
lighting programmers, lighting
designers, sound engineers,

1999
01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:17,680
everyone, everyone in every job
coders, you know, again,

2000
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:21,040
creative people, whatever kind
of creative you're making,

2001
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:25,040
whether it's video or whatever,
like have you seen Sora?

2002
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,200
Nope.
So Google Sora Balloon Head,

2003
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:33,320
they made this video about this
guy.

2004
01:51:33,440 --> 01:51:35,480
It's like a movie trailer, sort
of.

2005
01:51:35,480 --> 01:51:38,600
But it's about this guy who has
a balloon head and it's

2006
01:51:38,600 --> 01:51:42,800
completely, 100% AI and it's
wild.

2007
01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:45,240
I mean, it is weird as hell, but
it's wild.

2008
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:49,440
And I just saw a music video
from Sora as well, completely AI

2009
01:51:49,440 --> 01:51:53,800
generated music video.
But yeah, I mean this stuff,

2010
01:51:54,120 --> 01:51:58,200
we're we're in the infancy right
now like you know we're the very

2011
01:51:58,200 --> 01:52:02,280
first BlackBerry you know that
that had the funny buttons or

2012
01:52:02,280 --> 01:52:05,000
the what was the other one
called the Palm Pilot.

2013
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:08,760
We're we're in Palm Pilot stages
right now, but we're gonna be,

2014
01:52:09,120 --> 01:52:15,640
you know, iPhone. 15 This search
of AI over the next sort of

2015
01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:18,680
generation of people will
drastically change what kind of

2016
01:52:18,680 --> 01:52:20,600
fixtures.
We even designed what what's

2017
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:23,480
needed to enhance.
So we see it on the movie side

2018
01:52:23,480 --> 01:52:27,080
on the XR screens where you're
it needs actually kind of

2019
01:52:27,080 --> 01:52:29,320
different lighting fixtures
almost to work with them.

2020
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:32,360
Greens become part of the
lighting that used to be you did

2021
01:52:32,440 --> 01:52:36,120
this like process for a car.
Now you have a big screen, put a

2022
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:38,440
car on there and it looks all
super realistic and.

2023
01:52:39,080 --> 01:52:42,000
You should get.
Going away, it's like it's all

2024
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:45,600
everything is changing.
There's a Joe Rogan from two or

2025
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:50,440
three weeks ago with Kurzweil,
Ray Ray Kurzweil on it and you

2026
01:52:50,440 --> 01:52:53,880
know, obviously a very smart guy
and very up on AI.

2027
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:58,400
And he, he has this whole thing
in his head where it's 2029 is,

2028
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:02,960
is pretty much where AI is, is
past humans.

2029
01:53:03,480 --> 01:53:08,880
And so everything leads up and
he keeps talking about this

2030
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:11,840
exponential growth of AI.
You know, it's not linear

2031
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:16,960
growth, it's exponential growth.
And it's quite an interesting

2032
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:20,440
conversation.
Well, eventually AI will teach

2033
01:53:20,440 --> 01:53:21,960
itself.
Of course.

2034
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:25,080
So what's going to happen?
It's doing that now.

2035
01:53:25,080 --> 01:53:28,000
Like didn't I just heard, I just
read about this a couple days

2036
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:34,520
ago that Google, I think it was
the CEO said, you know, our AI

2037
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:38,880
system surprised us and the
interviewer said, well why is

2038
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:40,520
that?
And he said it learned a

2039
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:45,560
language in minutes that we
didn't tell it to learn and and

2040
01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:49,520
we didn't we didn't do this, it
did it itself.

2041
01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:54,080
It just learned an entire new
language and then started to

2042
01:53:54,360 --> 01:54:00,560
communicate in that language.
And and you know, that's kind of

2043
01:54:00,560 --> 01:54:04,160
frightening if if Google is
going, hey, this thing did

2044
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:07,040
something we didn't expect it to
do, that's frightening.

2045
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:10,320
That's a little bit scary.
That's that's where you get into

2046
01:54:10,320 --> 01:54:13,160
the sort of Twilight Zone stuff
where it's like, oh geez.

2047
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:16,240
So yeah, I mean, there is a
danger.

2048
01:54:16,240 --> 01:54:18,440
To all we're only seeing a tiny
glimpse of what's really

2049
01:54:18,440 --> 01:54:21,080
possible.
Of course it'll interface with

2050
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:25,880
everything you do, which is fun
and scary and but it's, you

2051
01:54:25,880 --> 01:54:29,600
know, when the Internet was
invented or whatever other

2052
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:32,800
things like car or the mobile
came like this, like some big

2053
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:38,000
breaks I guess in humanity with
certain events really shifted

2054
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:40,640
stuff drastically.
And it will happen here, yeah.

2055
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:42,120
I mean, we're not, we're not
back in.

2056
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:45,840
Gonna end up.
Yeah, we're not back riding a

2057
01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:47,960
buggy behind a horse or
anything, right?

2058
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:52,320
So you always keep progressing
like once technology happens you

2059
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:54,400
don't just suddenly move
backwards or whatever.

2060
01:54:54,800 --> 01:55:00,520
But at the same time the good
news is so far I think most of

2061
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,440
the the progress that has been
made has been in very useful

2062
01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:05,520
things.
Like you said, you know ways to

2063
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:10,640
simplify your day and and you
know clean up your e-mail or

2064
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:14,480
your calendar or different
things like that book flights,

2065
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:17,480
you know you can use.
There's all kinds of different

2066
01:55:18,200 --> 01:55:23,880
AI systems out there now for for
travel where you can book an

2067
01:55:23,880 --> 01:55:26,240
entire not just book a flight,
but you could say, you know

2068
01:55:26,240 --> 01:55:27,480
what?
I'm thinking about going to

2069
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:31,680
Italy this year and I'm gonna
spend 3 weeks there and I think

2070
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:35,360
I'd like it to be during warm
weather, but not when it's too

2071
01:55:35,360 --> 01:55:38,600
busy and I wanna spend some time
on the seaside.

2072
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:42,920
Not too much time in touristy
towns and you can have this 10

2073
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:46,080
minute conversation with it and
boom, it'll create you a

2074
01:55:46,080 --> 01:55:50,360
complete itinerary along with
pricing and best time of year

2075
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:53,120
and hotels that you should stay
in where you should eat lunch.

2076
01:55:53,400 --> 01:55:56,840
It's incredible.
I've tried it, you know, it's

2077
01:55:56,840 --> 01:55:58,800
wild.
Let me know when you go on one

2078
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:00,400
of those trips, if that really.
Works, yeah.

2079
01:56:00,880 --> 01:56:02,640
Yeah.
Well, I couldn't be much worse

2080
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:05,680
than booking it directly through
like United Airlines or

2081
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:08,480
something.
And you know, it's so bad.

2082
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:10,760
Like the service.
This is the other thing.

2083
01:56:11,160 --> 01:56:14,760
The service with airlines and
hotel chains and things like

2084
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:19,440
that has gotten so bad that it's
not gonna be hard to surpass it.

2085
01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:23,520
You know, it's gonna be pretty
easy to surpass it using AI.

2086
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:28,000
For sure it'll affect a lot of
jobs, like stuff that we do

2087
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:30,680
right now will all change.
There will be a lot of jobs that

2088
01:56:30,680 --> 01:56:32,840
are not needed anymore because
there's probably no more

2089
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:35,200
customer service agents that you
call.

2090
01:56:35,200 --> 01:56:37,840
It's all gonna be some bot who's
gonna be much quicker.

2091
01:56:38,200 --> 01:56:43,800
Yeah, much smarter, knows a lot
more and you know, like you're

2092
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:46,960
one of a flight cancelled,
you're not gonna call some agent

2093
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:49,600
anymore who's gonna be like
typing around and trying to find

2094
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:51,600
it.
It'll be you're going to get it

2095
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:54,280
on your phone and you got the
perfect rerouting.

2096
01:56:54,720 --> 01:56:56,880
Yeah, go.
And it will optimize it across

2097
01:56:56,880 --> 01:56:59,480
the whole airline to distribute
the load between different

2098
01:56:59,480 --> 01:57:02,480
routings and who's going to miss
that connection and this kind of

2099
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:09,040
stuff will help.
What are what are on the, on the

2100
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:13,200
lighting side, fixture side,
what are some of the technology

2101
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:17,360
challenges or design challenges
or whatever you want to call it

2102
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:23,000
that you think we'll solve for
in the next couple of years.

2103
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:26,280
And like I I asked Richard
Kadina this one time and he said

2104
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:32,200
we're gonna be able to bend
light and you know, so any that

2105
01:57:32,200 --> 01:57:36,720
come to mind for you?
I always want to build a light

2106
01:57:36,720 --> 01:57:39,320
to erase light of a stage.
Don't be just awesome.

2107
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:42,320
Like to do what?
It would be nice to build

2108
01:57:42,320 --> 01:57:44,400
something to erase light on a
stage.

2109
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:46,480
I see.
Yeah, get rid of it.

2110
01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:49,480
Yeah, that's interesting.
Television.

2111
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:51,320
Yeah.
Now I think the big challenge

2112
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:55,560
has been everything gotten so
bright and fixtures gotten so

2113
01:57:55,560 --> 01:57:59,560
big and heavy, so weights has
been a massive issue.

2114
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:01,240
Yeah, so.
Visibility.

2115
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:03,800
A lot of fixtures are really,
really, really good now, no

2116
01:58:03,800 --> 01:58:05,320
matter what manufacturer you
buy.

2117
01:58:05,320 --> 01:58:07,800
Yeah, I know, I think.
They have lost that five years

2118
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,720
ago elevated thing.
I know, I know.

2119
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:15,480
So it's all how easy is it to
service?

2120
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:18,760
What's my ROI on it?
How often is it going to be in

2121
01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:21,920
the shop having to get repaired?
How difficult is it to repair?

2122
01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:26,120
Those kind of things are way
more influencing purchasing

2123
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:28,800
decisions than what the light
actually does.

2124
01:58:28,800 --> 01:58:31,760
And you see it on tour writers
and sometimes I need a profile

2125
01:58:32,200 --> 01:58:35,760
that's, you know, that bright as
IP65 and the people don't even

2126
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:39,080
specify the actual product
anymore because a lot of it was

2127
01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:43,000
very, very close to each other.
As much as we all think our

2128
01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:47,320
stuff was amazing, yeah, really,
really great products from all

2129
01:58:47,320 --> 01:58:50,000
manufacturers out there.
Well, one of the things that I

2130
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:52,880
think happened recently and I
don't know if this was because

2131
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:59,280
of you and now I suspect maybe
it was, but elation went hard on

2132
01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:05,040
IP early other than.
In the process right before I

2133
01:59:05,040 --> 01:59:06,600
joined.
And that was actually main, one

2134
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:09,520
of the main reasons why I
thought this was a really great

2135
01:59:09,520 --> 01:59:13,800
challenge and opportunity at the
same time, yeah, they're like,

2136
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:16,800
you know, we're gonna go really
hard on this IP range and we

2137
01:59:16,800 --> 01:59:20,560
think that's like companies
haven't done it right yet.

2138
01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:25,840
So the Proteus hybrid back then
was just starting to find its

2139
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:27,920
footing and it was something
that was used in that Burj

2140
01:59:27,920 --> 01:59:31,360
Khalifa in yeah, yeah, I was in
Dubai.

2141
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:35,200
Because prior prior to that, it
was really just like SGM had a

2142
01:59:35,200 --> 01:59:37,000
couple of fixtures or whatever,
right?

2143
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:40,360
And none of the big companies
had anything.

2144
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:41,680
Heavy.
Yeah.

2145
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:44,960
You know, nobody has done until
then did a really good

2146
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:47,040
entertainment fixture, which
didn't have a lot of

2147
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:48,640
compromises.
Yeah.

2148
01:59:48,640 --> 01:59:52,120
And that's something that I
think we're elation and maybe

2149
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:54,800
had a pretty good vision.
Really good vision.

2150
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:56,560
Yeah.
I mean now obviously everyone's

2151
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:59,920
doing it, but you know when you
guys did it was it was a pretty

2152
01:59:59,920 --> 02:00:02,880
big leap because you're adding
cost, you're adding weight,

2153
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:05,720
you're adding complexity for
getting into the fixture to

2154
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,360
repair it.
Now the challenge is to take all

2155
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:12,000
this back out and make IP
fixtures without the penalties.

2156
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:14,560
So that's been that's kind of
the next phase on that.

2157
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:19,160
Yeah, there's now people you see
a cruise line saying we really

2158
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:21,960
want IP to not have to maintain
the fixtures.

2159
02:00:22,440 --> 02:00:24,480
Yeah, it's.
Pyro and it's dust and it's just

2160
02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:26,920
like people don't have time to
maintain it and clean it.

2161
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:31,760
So like projectors, a lot of the
projectors are fully sealed

2162
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:34,760
optics and you don't get dirt in
the lenses, Yeah.

2163
02:00:35,160 --> 02:00:38,760
So there's a lot of effort in
R&D being done to basically SEAL

2164
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,320
fixtures, yeah.
That's interesting.

2165
02:00:41,320 --> 02:00:45,160
Reduce the maintenance without
it maybe being heavier than a

2166
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:47,880
normal fixture and trying to get
the weight out of the units.

2167
02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:51,280
Speaking of IP technology
though, what what do you think?

2168
02:00:51,280 --> 02:00:54,000
And you don't have to answer
this if you don't want to, but

2169
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:57,400
what do you think about a
particular company who I won't

2170
02:00:57,400 --> 02:01:02,040
mention their name, who's who's
coming out with IP fixtures that

2171
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:09,200
are a lower IP rating than what
was normally call it acceptable

2172
02:01:09,200 --> 02:01:12,480
for outdoor use or or at least
for permanent outdoor use?

2173
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:16,480
I like 54.
I know who you're talking about

2174
02:01:16,480 --> 02:01:19,400
there.
Yeah, I think it's a good idea

2175
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:24,200
because there's a lot of use
where you you need a fixture

2176
02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:27,680
that you can put out on a or
like Coachella and it rains or

2177
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:31,640
whatever.
It is some tour and it's in and

2178
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:35,040
out, but it's actually an event
fixture, you know, You don't

2179
02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:37,080
want to hang it on a theme park
for 10 years.

2180
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:39,240
You just need a light that can
take a rain shower.

2181
02:01:39,560 --> 02:01:43,040
Yeah, it can get wet and can get
snowed on for a couple of days.

2182
02:01:43,560 --> 02:01:47,920
They survived 3 months in
Chicago on some outdoor shed and

2183
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:51,360
then go back to the normal tour
and you need fixtures like that

2184
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:53,160
and I think it's actually in
good direction.

2185
02:01:53,160 --> 02:01:55,640
Well, I think they've got some
on top of their building, which

2186
02:01:55,640 --> 02:02:00,280
is in a pretty rough environment
and that they've had them there

2187
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:01,840
for a couple of years or
something.

2188
02:02:02,720 --> 02:02:05,760
But yeah, I mean, I guess the
trick is going to be and I've

2189
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:08,520
never looked it up or anything
but the documentation.

2190
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:11,080
It depends what the
documentation says, because if

2191
02:02:11,080 --> 02:02:14,560
there's a snafu to the.
Customer sales people trying to

2192
02:02:14,840 --> 02:02:17,400
sell it for something that's not
meant for us, like correct.

2193
02:02:17,400 --> 02:02:20,760
You can hang it on you know your
your roller coaster for five

2194
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:23,200
years will be fine and then the
product isn't designed for.

2195
02:02:23,200 --> 02:02:26,920
The product fails and now they
go to the manufacturer and the

2196
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:32,720
manufacturer says look, it says
here in line 376, it says right

2197
02:02:32,720 --> 02:02:36,960
here that it's not meant for use
for more than 12 hours, you

2198
02:02:36,960 --> 02:02:38,560
know?
Yeah.

2199
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:40,920
There's several fixtures out
there that say that now.

2200
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:42,600
It was like temporary outdoor
use.

2201
02:02:42,600 --> 02:02:44,080
So they're really designed to
be.

2202
02:02:44,080 --> 02:02:47,120
Interesting.
Used for, you know, shorter

2203
02:02:47,120 --> 02:02:50,080
periods, and that's debatable.
What's temporary?

2204
02:02:50,080 --> 02:02:54,760
It's like 3 months on a theater,
you know, outdoors, Shakespeare

2205
02:02:54,760 --> 02:02:56,600
in the Park kind of thing.
Is that temporary?

2206
02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:57,480
Does.
It you know.

2207
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:01,800
There's a lot of things that are
not really decided yet and I'm

2208
02:03:01,920 --> 02:03:05,160
yeah, like maturing there a
little bit, but I think there's

2209
02:03:05,160 --> 02:03:09,360
like fixtures that can withstand
adverse conditions without

2210
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:13,480
being, you know, so fully IP
that they're really designed to

2211
02:03:13,480 --> 02:03:17,440
be like permanent on a building.
Yeah, not not everyone's gonna

2212
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:21,960
blast fire hoses at lights.
You know, like, not everything.

2213
02:03:22,160 --> 02:03:26,280
So, you know, I'm a big fan,
actually, of the the good enough

2214
02:03:27,080 --> 02:03:32,080
approach to to design or to
products where not everything

2215
02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:35,720
has to be the best of the best.
You know, something's good

2216
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:38,240
enough in different areas,
right?

2217
02:03:38,760 --> 02:03:41,760
But so I'm usually a pretty big
fan of that.

2218
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:44,200
This one I thought was a little
bit interesting though, when

2219
02:03:44,200 --> 02:03:49,760
when when they were saying it's
an outdoor use fixture, but not

2220
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:52,840
really being very specific and
you kind of got to go look into

2221
02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:56,280
the specs on it to see what the
actual IP, and it doesn't even

2222
02:03:56,280 --> 02:04:00,040
say in like the main spec.
You got to dig deeper to get to

2223
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:05,320
what the actual IP rating is.
And so, hey, you know, good on

2224
02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:06,160
them.
It's it's good.

2225
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:08,560
Tricky marketing and stuff, as
long as you don't end up getting

2226
02:04:08,560 --> 02:04:12,480
sued.
More of this, Yeah, IP that is

2227
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:16,400
meant to be used temporarily.
Like, really just on a show.

2228
02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:19,040
Yeah.
One day and it's fine.

2229
02:04:19,520 --> 02:04:22,320
From a fixture design
standpoint, how much easier it

2230
02:04:22,320 --> 02:04:25,880
is it to make a fixture IP54
than IP65?

2231
02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:27,280
Like what are some of the
differences?

2232
02:04:27,920 --> 02:04:29,760
Not a lot of difference really.
Really.

2233
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:34,960
So why bother?
Once you go to IP65, there's a

2234
02:04:34,960 --> 02:04:37,760
lot more you get like moisture
and humidity management.

2235
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:40,520
That's a bit more difficult,
just like taking the picture

2236
02:04:40,520 --> 02:04:43,560
apart and evacuating it and
doing pressure tests.

2237
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:46,760
Those kind of things are
difficult, especially on the

2238
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:51,360
rental side.
So that's where we see actually

2239
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:54,880
a demand for fixtures to be
easier to service.

2240
02:04:55,080 --> 02:04:59,640
Yeah, and not demanding this
IP65 S some like Claypacki has

2241
02:04:59,640 --> 02:05:03,200
been on IP66 right now and we've
been doing a few pictures like

2242
02:05:03,200 --> 02:05:06,920
that too.
So it's gone both ways right

2243
02:05:06,920 --> 02:05:08,240
now.
So some pictures go up,

2244
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:13,520
interesting.
Some gone to 54 IPX 4, you know,

2245
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:15,080
actually it's a lot like.
What's?

2246
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:19,160
IPX 4 watches you know you have
like IPX 4.

2247
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:29,040
What's X4?
You only have, it's not dust

2248
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,080
proof completely.
So that's one of the things,

2249
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:35,600
yeah, OK, so once that's for
dust and one's for water

2250
02:05:35,600 --> 02:05:39,200
ingress, so.
Yeah, but that's I think that's

2251
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:41,440
another area though, these IP
fixtures.

2252
02:05:41,440 --> 02:05:44,600
I think that's not one that's
gonna get put back in the bag.

2253
02:05:44,600 --> 02:05:48,640
Like I think all automated
lighting fixtures in the future

2254
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:52,000
are going to be IP rated.
We have now on park ends, like

2255
02:05:52,000 --> 02:05:54,680
we've done a new line of Paris.
We're not even doing it indoor

2256
02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:55,840
and outdoor anymore.
We're just.

2257
02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:58,560
Yeah, yeah.
I I just see great.

2258
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,400
Evolution, I think you don't
have to work. 100%.

2259
02:06:01,400 --> 02:06:03,200
From outside it's great.
Well, you don't have to have

2260
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:06,840
those ugly domes or garbage bags
or whatever it is you're putting

2261
02:06:06,840 --> 02:06:10,440
on them.
But no, I think why would you,

2262
02:06:10,680 --> 02:06:14,880
if if I was building a brand new
lighting company today, I would

2263
02:06:14,880 --> 02:06:17,840
say that it has to be 100% IP
rated fixtures.

2264
02:06:17,840 --> 02:06:20,480
It doesn't make any sense.
Otherwise it makes no sense.

2265
02:06:21,480 --> 02:06:24,440
Yeah, a lot of the materials
have gotten better for this.

2266
02:06:24,440 --> 02:06:29,120
I got lighter weight so we don't
get cell phones.

2267
02:06:29,120 --> 02:06:32,640
Used to be, you know, couldn't
even look at a body of water and

2268
02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:34,080
they were damaged now.
Yeah, you.

2269
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:36,960
Can drop your phone in a glass
of water and that's fine.

2270
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:39,800
What about what about power
innovations though?

2271
02:06:39,800 --> 02:06:44,480
Like, you know, I keep thinking
like so far battery, battery has

2272
02:06:44,480 --> 02:06:47,360
only been in sort of novelty
fixtures almost.

2273
02:06:47,360 --> 02:06:53,760
You know, you haven't seen like
the core lighting package

2274
02:06:55,200 --> 02:06:57,760
incorporating any kind of
battery technology, whether it's

2275
02:06:58,360 --> 02:07:01,120
batteries on the fixture or even
remote batteries.

2276
02:07:02,440 --> 02:07:05,680
Is that?
Part of a research group on that

2277
02:07:06,720 --> 02:07:09,800
at Martin actually.
So we didn't like study how long

2278
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:14,840
can fixtures last on battery and
the technology was not there and

2279
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:19,160
I don't think still not there.
Yeah, it's a totally new battery

2280
02:07:19,160 --> 02:07:21,080
technology.
I don't think you're gonna hang

2281
02:07:21,080 --> 02:07:25,680
lithium ion blocks in your in
your Rick and tour with that

2282
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:29,560
because of weights.
It's just not practical quite

2283
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:31,600
yet.
Yeah, it'll happen, you know,

2284
02:07:31,600 --> 02:07:34,240
with a whole lot like Richard
has been doing this like solar.

2285
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:38,680
Yeah, that's was just great.
And I think we'll see more and

2286
02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:42,320
more of that, but maybe still
easier to maybe have like

2287
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:44,920
central battery maybe somewhere
for.

2288
02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:45,920
Us Yeah.
Yeah.

2289
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:48,920
Or to around with some semi
truck that's a big solar

2290
02:07:48,920 --> 02:07:53,480
battery, whatever thing it is.
So you're independent from any

2291
02:07:53,480 --> 02:07:56,720
sort of power needs.
Yeah, in the venue, yeah.

2292
02:07:56,760 --> 02:07:59,560
But pictures itself, I think
it's not practical yet to put

2293
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:02,840
all the weights.
What about like Magsafe kind of

2294
02:08:02,840 --> 02:08:05,000
thing?
You know where where you can,

2295
02:08:05,040 --> 02:08:08,000
You know you clamp onto the
Truss and it gets the power.

2296
02:08:08,880 --> 02:08:11,720
It's all.
Done already, he can look back

2297
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:14,360
at was it Morpheus had like a.
Yeah.

2298
02:08:15,680 --> 02:08:19,880
But that was a very single use
kind of thing like it very much

2299
02:08:19,880 --> 02:08:22,960
for their fixture mated to that
etcetera.

2300
02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:26,600
But I don't know, I just keep
thinking like that seems to be

2301
02:08:26,600 --> 02:08:30,760
the next real redundancy is all
of this cable that's being run

2302
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:34,040
through the the rig.
It just seems to be kind of

2303
02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:38,120
silly that in 2024 we're still
doing that.

2304
02:08:39,600 --> 02:08:41,680
It is.
But you know, it's so hard to

2305
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:44,560
get rid of DMX, for example,
because it just works so well

2306
02:08:44,560 --> 02:08:46,840
and that's so resilient.
Yeah.

2307
02:08:48,320 --> 02:08:50,240
It's been like the phone
companies have been taking a

2308
02:08:50,240 --> 02:08:52,960
long time to get rid of that
last piece of copper.

2309
02:08:53,240 --> 02:08:55,440
Yeah, to the house.
Yeah, that's true.

2310
02:08:55,640 --> 02:08:57,920
Works well and it's everywhere
so.

2311
02:08:58,120 --> 02:09:03,160
Yeah, so even wireless DMX isn't
reliable enough yet to just

2312
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:05,280
completely do away with DMX.
I don't.

2313
02:09:05,360 --> 02:09:06,560
Think so.
Like that.

2314
02:09:07,200 --> 02:09:10,640
But there's a lot of stuff
happening with IoT and mesh

2315
02:09:10,640 --> 02:09:13,920
networks, so eventually be able
to just hang the stuff up there

2316
02:09:13,920 --> 02:09:16,040
and your AI bot will see
everything.

2317
02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:19,320
Yeah, and it will just work.
Yeah, that's what it'll.

2318
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:21,960
Look like and you're like, what
the hell were they doing?

2319
02:09:21,960 --> 02:09:24,560
Like, yeah, to like type in DMX
addresses.

2320
02:09:24,560 --> 02:09:28,120
Or or or dip switches.
You know, you had to do the

2321
02:09:28,120 --> 02:09:29,200
dips.
I remember.

2322
02:09:29,640 --> 02:09:32,400
Oh, those things drove me crazy.
I'm like, what do you mean this

2323
02:09:32,400 --> 02:09:35,240
plus this equals this?
Like, it doesn't make any sense

2324
02:09:35,240 --> 02:09:38,080
to me.
Come on, make this make sense.

2325
02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:42,480
This was all, yeah, very much
driven by engineers back then.

2326
02:09:42,720 --> 02:09:44,920
Yeah.
I think now more and more

2327
02:09:44,920 --> 02:09:48,000
products are driven by creative
needs rather than engineering

2328
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:51,320
ideas, yeah?
Well, it was always so

2329
02:09:51,520 --> 02:09:55,640
frustrating because the phone in
our hands, the, the remote

2330
02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:58,920
control that we're using in our
house, like things that we're

2331
02:09:58,920 --> 02:10:02,000
touching on a daily basis.
Sometimes our toaster, you know,

2332
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:06,480
had more technology or simpler
technology in it than, you know,

2333
02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:10,560
these $10,000 moving lights did.
Like, you know, I can address

2334
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:13,160
the microwave, but I can't
address my moving light, you

2335
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:15,880
know?
But yeah, whatever.

2336
02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:18,920
We've just been doing NFC.
That's been a big thing.

2337
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:21,760
Yeah.
So we have NFC antennas on the

2338
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:23,440
front, on the top of the
fixtures.

2339
02:10:23,440 --> 02:10:26,880
So even in a case you can go
with your phone and go PPP, peep

2340
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:30,880
and address a lot of pictures.
So it's incremental.

2341
02:10:30,880 --> 02:10:35,520
There's not hasn't been like one
big revolution of this.

2342
02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:37,800
So everybody's trying little
things.

2343
02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:40,920
This cluster thing is obviously
it's something where you also

2344
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:43,680
help with like addressing and
detecting fixtures and having

2345
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:46,760
resilient network and you rig.
Yeah.

2346
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:50,480
So it'll get there, but it's.
Sure seems like it.

2347
02:10:50,480 --> 02:10:53,680
Will have only a few people that
are really have the time to to

2348
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:58,040
work on this development.
Well, we're not the most heavily

2349
02:10:58,040 --> 02:11:01,440
funded industry in the world
either, you know, So obviously

2350
02:11:01,440 --> 02:11:05,640
you're going to get technology
in, in cars and a lot of other

2351
02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:08,800
things before you ever make your
way to a small industry like

2352
02:11:08,800 --> 02:11:10,200
ours.
Correct.

2353
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:14,680
Yeah, we mostly benefit and
always have, you know, like the

2354
02:11:14,680 --> 02:11:17,880
original fixtures that came out
all use technology that they

2355
02:11:17,880 --> 02:11:19,920
found somewhere else.
Yeah.

2356
02:11:22,880 --> 02:11:27,040
So we we benefit from from
whatever other developments

2357
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:31,480
happen around us touchscreen on
the lighting console or you know

2358
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:35,920
the the the system inside a
fixture is based on something

2359
02:11:35,920 --> 02:11:38,760
called Canbus which is used in
the car industry.

2360
02:11:38,760 --> 02:11:43,640
It's like your HVAC and you'd
see changing and your mirror

2361
02:11:43,640 --> 02:11:48,280
changing and hatch opening in
the back that's all over

2362
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:51,920
communications.
Bus that was such, I think

2363
02:11:51,920 --> 02:11:54,960
German cars have that first and
called canvas and that's

2364
02:11:54,960 --> 02:11:58,360
actually wasn't a fixture now.
So now four wires instead of a

2365
02:11:58,360 --> 02:12:01,160
ton interesting cable looms
throughout the light.

2366
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:05,560
So now you've separated all this
processing out and so we've

2367
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:07,600
benefited there from the car
industry.

2368
02:12:07,920 --> 02:12:10,960
You're a car buff, aren't you?
Yeah, I like cars.

2369
02:12:11,800 --> 02:12:18,520
Do you have a Do you still drive
a a fossil fuel pig of a car or

2370
02:12:18,520 --> 02:12:22,960
do you drive an E?
Actually I had a TDI that I'm

2371
02:12:22,960 --> 02:12:26,080
still driving.
Oh OK Audi and get caught in all

2372
02:12:26,080 --> 02:12:31,880
this TDI like Dieselgate thing.
Yeah, I'm actually changing to a

2373
02:12:31,880 --> 02:12:35,400
plug in hybrid because I wanted
to go follow electric, but the

2374
02:12:37,160 --> 02:12:41,280
charging setups here in
Minnesota just not really there

2375
02:12:41,280 --> 02:12:43,720
yet.
What about the temperature too?

2376
02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:45,840
Aren't you a little bit worried
about that?

2377
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:50,240
Like the range of these cars.
I had a Tesla rental in Germany

2378
02:12:50,240 --> 02:12:54,720
and was like LR and I called it
lousy range because it was just

2379
02:12:54,720 --> 02:12:57,000
terrible.
Oh, I remember seeing that post

2380
02:12:57,000 --> 02:12:59,600
that you put up on on Facebook
or something.

2381
02:12:59,720 --> 02:13:01,160
The point I was actually really
excited.

2382
02:13:01,160 --> 02:13:03,840
It was actually Hertz.
It was a very that it was a very

2383
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:05,520
first rental.
That car just came out of the

2384
02:13:05,520 --> 02:13:09,000
Gigafactory in Berlin and it
failed.

2385
02:13:09,000 --> 02:13:12,120
The first car failed after three
days with a broken heat pump and

2386
02:13:12,120 --> 02:13:14,840
then the car got pretty much
half the range that they

2387
02:13:14,840 --> 02:13:18,040
advertised.
And I drive like a LED foot

2388
02:13:18,040 --> 02:13:20,480
normally in Germany.
I really pulled back and drove

2389
02:13:20,480 --> 02:13:25,480
like an old person.
Yeah, no fence, but normally I'm

2390
02:13:25,480 --> 02:13:27,600
one of the faster drivers on the
Autobahn, which.

2391
02:13:27,600 --> 02:13:29,440
Is fun.
Yeah, of course.

2392
02:13:29,440 --> 02:13:32,880
Tesla really pulled back and
drove very mellow.

2393
02:13:32,880 --> 02:13:35,040
Which is kind of disappointing,
cuz they're pretty quick.

2394
02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:39,680
They're.
Quick, but basically you drive

2395
02:13:39,680 --> 02:13:42,760
100 kilometers and that tells
you you use 300 of your range.

2396
02:13:42,760 --> 02:13:44,800
So I'm like.
Yeah, Jesus.

2397
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:47,440
I don't believe any of those
numbers that they say, but.

2398
02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:54,680
I'm not an electric car fan.
And I had AI, had an Audi R8 at

2399
02:13:54,680 --> 02:13:57,440
the time and I was looking for
whatever I was going to get

2400
02:13:57,440 --> 02:14:01,720
after that.
And so a friend said, have you

2401
02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:04,160
driven a Tesla?
And I said, Nah, I don't.

2402
02:14:04,320 --> 02:14:07,080
And he goes, don't you know,
don't discount it, you got to

2403
02:14:07,080 --> 02:14:09,320
drive one.
So I went into the Tesla

2404
02:14:09,320 --> 02:14:12,600
dealership here in Palm Beach
and they gave me one for the

2405
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:14,480
weekend.
I left my Audi there, but they

2406
02:14:14,480 --> 02:14:20,920
gave me a Model S This was
before the Plaid, but it was the

2407
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:23,560
fastest 1 before the Plaid,
whatever that is.

2408
02:14:23,600 --> 02:14:25,440
P100D.
That's what it was called.

2409
02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:31,000
And this was probably four years
ago or something and so they

2410
02:14:31,000 --> 02:14:33,560
gave it to me for the weekend.
I it was a long weekend.

2411
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,400
I picked it up Friday afternoon
and I had to have it back

2412
02:14:37,920 --> 02:14:41,880
Tuesday, I think.
And so my girlfriend and I went

2413
02:14:41,880 --> 02:14:49,200
down to the keys with it and you
know, I loved how quick it was.

2414
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:53,560
Like, you know, you hit the
accelerator in that thing and

2415
02:14:53,560 --> 02:14:59,120
you know, I think it's zero to
60 and what is it, 2.9 or 2.7 or

2416
02:14:59,120 --> 02:15:01,600
something?
The P-100, DI know now that the

2417
02:15:01,600 --> 02:15:06,680
Plaid is like 1.9 seconds or
something, But you know, it was

2418
02:15:06,680 --> 02:15:11,800
quick, but it was kind of boring
the the drive yourself stuff.

2419
02:15:11,920 --> 02:15:14,680
Like every time I'd let go for a
little bit, I was like, cool, I

2420
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:18,320
can check my text messages and
stuff, but you couldn't do it

2421
02:15:18,320 --> 02:15:20,440
for very long.
You had to grab the wheel again.

2422
02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:25,760
And then also things like off
ramps confused it and kept

2423
02:15:25,760 --> 02:15:27,760
getting me into trouble.
So I quit letting go of the

2424
02:15:27,760 --> 02:15:29,840
steering wheel because it
freaked me out a couple times

2425
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,680
and but the cool thing was the
hotel that we stayed at in the

2426
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:38,360
Keys had charging stations and
the valet took the car every

2427
02:15:38,360 --> 02:15:40,840
night and in the morning when I
went to get it, it was fully

2428
02:15:40,840 --> 02:15:43,800
charged every time and they
didn't charge you for that or

2429
02:15:43,800 --> 02:15:46,160
anything.
It was all free and so I thought

2430
02:15:46,160 --> 02:15:48,560
that was pretty cool.
Like I never had to buy gas on a

2431
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:51,280
whole trip to to the Keys.
That was pretty fun.

2432
02:15:52,560 --> 02:15:58,960
In the end, to me, it was cool,
It was comfortable, but it was

2433
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:02,400
kind of boring and and
predictable.

2434
02:16:02,400 --> 02:16:06,160
And like for me, it felt like
driving an iPhone.

2435
02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:08,200
You know?
It just, it felt.

2436
02:16:08,680 --> 02:16:09,800
I don't know.
It just felt.

2437
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:12,000
That's maybe what appeals to a
lot of people that.

2438
02:16:12,040 --> 02:16:15,600
The I guess, yeah, exactly that.
I mean, I love my iPhone, but

2439
02:16:15,640 --> 02:16:19,560
you know, this thing, it just
like, I like the sound of a gas

2440
02:16:19,560 --> 02:16:21,680
car.
I like the unpredictability

2441
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:24,840
sometimes.
I like I don't know I I.

2442
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:29,120
Maybe search on an electric car.
But yeah, it's like the range

2443
02:16:29,160 --> 02:16:32,200
anxiety here would be really an
issue because we like to do a

2444
02:16:32,200 --> 02:16:34,879
little Rd. trips up to, like,
the coasts up north.

2445
02:16:35,080 --> 02:16:37,000
The Lake Superior.
Yeah.

2446
02:16:37,000 --> 02:16:40,000
And I looked it up and you're
like, you really have to be

2447
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:42,719
really mindful how you drive
from where you stop and for how

2448
02:16:42,719 --> 02:16:44,440
long.
It's just not quite there.

2449
02:16:44,440 --> 02:16:46,920
Yet I'll have to let I'll have
to let you know next time I'm in

2450
02:16:46,920 --> 02:16:50,000
Minnesota because I have a a
really good friend of mine who

2451
02:16:50,280 --> 02:16:54,760
lives in Duluth.
But he's got a he's got a house

2452
02:16:55,200 --> 02:17:00,200
on Vermilion Lake or Lake
Vermilion and they have a little

2453
02:17:00,200 --> 02:17:02,719
island, you know, everybody has
their own little island there.

2454
02:17:02,719 --> 02:17:05,480
So he's got his own little
private island with a house on

2455
02:17:05,480 --> 02:17:08,480
it and a boat and jet skis and
all that stuff you got there.

2456
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:11,280
Yeah, I was there.
I went and stayed with him for a

2457
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:14,760
couple days.
Last year we we shipped my car

2458
02:17:14,760 --> 02:17:19,639
into Chicago, picked it up in
Chicago, drove to his place and

2459
02:17:19,639 --> 02:17:22,480
and went out on the island with
him for a couple days and then

2460
02:17:22,480 --> 02:17:25,840
drove from there up to my house
in Canada for the summer.

2461
02:17:27,080 --> 02:17:29,480
But And then on the way back, I
stopped.

2462
02:17:29,480 --> 02:17:32,600
And do you know Paul Streitz?
Yeah.

2463
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:35,799
Yeah I stopped and had dinner
with Paul Streitz on the way

2464
02:17:35,799 --> 02:17:40,080
back to drop my car off at the
at the freight place again in

2465
02:17:40,080 --> 02:17:43,040
Chicago.
So, so yeah, I didn't think of

2466
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:46,719
you though Paul is I only think
of two or three people when I'm

2467
02:17:46,719 --> 02:17:50,480
going through Minnesota for any
reason and and Paul and this

2468
02:17:50,480 --> 02:17:54,400
friend of mine Mark who has the
place on the lake and but I'll

2469
02:17:54,400 --> 02:17:56,799
have to let you know next time I
go up there if I do.

2470
02:17:58,160 --> 02:18:01,799
Please do, Yeah, I'm actually,
so I have an Audi and then the

2471
02:18:01,799 --> 02:18:05,760
other one I have a BMW.
Just full fun convertible

2472
02:18:06,080 --> 02:18:09,080
because that's what you need in
Minnesota is drive convertible.

2473
02:18:09,400 --> 02:18:13,200
Yeah, I have AI, have a soccer
mom SUV.

2474
02:18:13,639 --> 02:18:18,040
Well, I mean, it's AX5M, but
it's it's, you know, it's an SUV

2475
02:18:18,559 --> 02:18:21,879
and it's actually the first SUV
I've ever bought for myself.

2476
02:18:22,200 --> 02:18:24,799
My ex-wife used to always drive
SUV's, but.

2477
02:18:24,879 --> 02:18:29,719
Used to be a big station wagon
fan in Germany, but it's not a

2478
02:18:29,719 --> 02:18:30,799
thing here.
It's just.

2479
02:18:30,799 --> 02:18:32,480
No, not really.
I mean.

2480
02:18:33,719 --> 02:18:36,959
All the Avants in in LA and the.
Avant is beautiful.

2481
02:18:37,080 --> 02:18:39,559
It's a beautiful car.
I can't get them anymore.

2482
02:18:39,639 --> 02:18:43,920
It's just really a shame.
You can't get the S6, whatever

2483
02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:45,719
it's.
Called or S6 Savant.

2484
02:18:45,719 --> 02:18:48,320
Still that they do.
I had an A4 and I've been

2485
02:18:48,320 --> 02:18:51,200
discontinuing a lot of stuff.
Because because my friend has an

2486
02:18:51,200 --> 02:18:55,559
S6 savant that is probably 2
years old now or three years old

2487
02:18:55,559 --> 02:18:59,040
now, it is fast as hell.
It's not as prevalent in

2488
02:18:59,040 --> 02:19:01,080
Germany.
When I rent cars, most of them

2489
02:19:01,080 --> 02:19:04,639
are some sort of station wagon.
Yeah, yeah.

2490
02:19:04,639 --> 02:19:06,280
Here.
It's not very common here.

2491
02:19:06,280 --> 02:19:08,920
It's not common like even the
new Mercedes one I don't think

2492
02:19:08,920 --> 02:19:12,040
is coming here.
It's not that common here for

2493
02:19:12,040 --> 02:19:13,799
whatever reason.
You know what's funny is we've

2494
02:19:13,799 --> 02:19:16,840
been sitting here talking about
all of this technology and AI

2495
02:19:16,840 --> 02:19:20,879
and stuff, and I'm reading your
notes and you put a note in that

2496
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:24,719
said you'd like to write a lot
of things using a pen and a

2497
02:19:24,719 --> 02:19:30,240
paper, a notebook versus putting
it in your phone or computer or

2498
02:19:30,240 --> 02:19:31,959
whatever.
What's up with that?

2499
02:19:34,240 --> 02:19:37,840
I've been trying to go digital
forever and I always fail, and I

2500
02:19:37,920 --> 02:19:40,200
think my mind just doesn't work
that way.

2501
02:19:40,360 --> 02:19:43,799
So yeah, I take a lot of notes
when I'm in meetings and just

2502
02:19:44,879 --> 02:19:48,400
the actual physical act of
writing it down seems to be

2503
02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:51,160
enough to put it in my head.
Interesting.

2504
02:19:51,160 --> 02:19:55,080
And just doing it on a tablet,
on a phone or laptop just

2505
02:19:55,080 --> 02:19:57,200
doesn't.
It feels disconnected.

2506
02:19:57,200 --> 02:20:00,000
I keep trying.
I'm getting a new tablet, a new

2507
02:20:00,000 --> 02:20:03,280
mother pen and all these things
and it just kind of never gels

2508
02:20:03,280 --> 02:20:05,040
for me.
Well, have you seen the new

2509
02:20:05,320 --> 02:20:09,840
notebook ones that look like a
notebook and stuff and it

2510
02:20:09,960 --> 02:20:14,480
digitized?
I saw a guy at a meeting during

2511
02:20:14,480 --> 02:20:16,920
LDI that was using it and I'm
like, this is actually kind of

2512
02:20:16,920 --> 02:20:19,680
nice cuz it's almost, it felt
like a real piece of paper.

2513
02:20:19,720 --> 02:20:22,360
Yeah, yeah.
And that might get you.

2514
02:20:22,360 --> 02:20:23,800
There.
Remarkable.

2515
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,640
That's the one.
Yeah, Kindle has one now too.

2516
02:20:26,640 --> 02:20:29,320
Looking at these things, I have
a Samsung that is really good at

2517
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:32,240
note taking, it's just still
doesn't feel right.

2518
02:20:32,240 --> 02:20:35,480
So I'm a big fan of all small
Skin books and they're just

2519
02:20:36,440 --> 02:20:39,360
writing those.
I have one right here.

2520
02:20:39,840 --> 02:20:41,640
Yeah.
I I mean, you know.

2521
02:20:41,640 --> 02:20:45,240
My workflow and I go back to
them sometimes, like, well, look

2522
02:20:45,240 --> 02:20:47,360
at all this stuff you wrote that
you never looked at again, but

2523
02:20:47,360 --> 02:20:49,720
it's actually enough for the
process to put it in my.

2524
02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:51,560
You know, it's funny because I
do the same thing the.

2525
02:20:51,960 --> 02:20:54,360
Decision making process.
I do the same thing.

2526
02:20:54,600 --> 02:20:57,680
You know, It's just like they
tell you journaling is you get

2527
02:20:57,680 --> 02:21:00,800
much more out of journaling when
you actually physically write

2528
02:21:00,800 --> 02:21:04,200
into a book.
And even if it's, you know, your

2529
02:21:04,320 --> 02:21:07,240
gratitude, journaling or
whatever it is, you get more

2530
02:21:07,240 --> 02:21:11,480
when you write into a book.
It's just for me, I don't know.

2531
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:16,160
I always have my phone with me,
so I'm always, I have to put

2532
02:21:16,160 --> 02:21:18,280
things into notes and stuff in
my phone.

2533
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:22,080
Otherwise I lose them or I don't
remember which notebook I wrote

2534
02:21:22,080 --> 02:21:24,520
it in or whatever.
And it's just another thing I

2535
02:21:24,520 --> 02:21:27,040
have to remember.
And as I get older, that's.

2536
02:21:27,080 --> 02:21:29,120
Writing's always been easier for
me.

2537
02:21:29,160 --> 02:21:31,720
Like the whole text to speech
hasn't really worked for me,

2538
02:21:31,720 --> 02:21:35,760
even though it's really good.
Yeah, I kind of forget that it's

2539
02:21:35,760 --> 02:21:40,120
there, so I just keep typing or
writing instead of talking to

2540
02:21:40,160 --> 02:21:42,920
my.
Have you tried the like the paid

2541
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:46,040
ChatGPT where you talk into it
on your phone?

2542
02:21:46,040 --> 02:21:49,160
Have you tried it yet?
No, it's probably really good.

2543
02:21:49,480 --> 02:21:53,080
Matthias, you have to try.
It is on unbelievable.

2544
02:21:53,080 --> 02:21:55,640
Like, you can just sit there and
talk like we're talking right

2545
02:21:55,640 --> 02:21:58,440
now.
And when you stop talking, it'll

2546
02:21:58,440 --> 02:22:00,680
create this little bubble and
it'll think for a minute and

2547
02:22:00,680 --> 02:22:02,800
it'll say, hey, Matthias, thanks
for giving me all that

2548
02:22:02,800 --> 02:22:04,840
information.
So let me just get this

2549
02:22:04,840 --> 02:22:06,680
straight.
What you're looking for is a

2550
02:22:06,720 --> 02:22:09,920
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you'll just be sitting there

2551
02:22:09,920 --> 02:22:12,520
blown away by what it's saying.
And you can interrupt at any

2552
02:22:12,520 --> 02:22:15,240
time and say, no, no, no, I
didn't say it's red.

2553
02:22:15,240 --> 02:22:17,760
I said it's reddish.
Oh, yeah.

2554
02:22:17,760 --> 02:22:21,240
I'm really sorry about that.
Yeah, you know, I mean, it's

2555
02:22:22,120 --> 02:22:25,720
crazy.
It's it's just very commutative.

2556
02:22:25,720 --> 02:22:28,240
Like you're just sitting there
having a conversation with this

2557
02:22:28,240 --> 02:22:30,360
thing and it just works.
It's incredible.

2558
02:22:30,840 --> 02:22:33,680
Looking at my desk, there's this
pile of Moleskin books, and it's

2559
02:22:33,680 --> 02:22:37,120
just sort of that's hilarious.
And so it's somebody you have to

2560
02:22:37,120 --> 02:22:39,040
do the same.
They say it helps you.

2561
02:22:39,920 --> 02:22:43,080
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Internalize things when you're

2562
02:22:43,080 --> 02:22:46,600
in meetings.
For me, the most I use it is

2563
02:22:47,000 --> 02:22:49,840
when I'm on podcast because I
can't really take out my phone,

2564
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:52,160
because it becomes distracting,
because there's things popping

2565
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:54,400
up or I see something else on
there or whatever.

2566
02:22:55,440 --> 02:22:57,720
So I always have a notebook next
to me when I'm doing the

2567
02:22:57,720 --> 02:23:00,640
podcast, because if I want to
bring something up, I'll forget

2568
02:23:00,640 --> 02:23:01,960
it.
If I don't just put a little

2569
02:23:01,960 --> 02:23:05,120
note here that says, you know,
whatever.

2570
02:23:05,440 --> 02:23:08,280
One word of something to remind
me what I need to talk to you

2571
02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:09,240
about or something.
Yeah, still.

2572
02:23:09,280 --> 02:23:12,440
Like when I start my day, I
write like a punch list on a,

2573
02:23:12,640 --> 02:23:16,160
you know, letter sized thing,
just to like the kind of things

2574
02:23:16,160 --> 02:23:18,400
I want to do during the day.
And often that's the same thing.

2575
02:23:18,400 --> 02:23:22,080
So I didn't get done yesterday.
Yeah, physically putting it in

2576
02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:23,760
front of you and keep glancing
at it.

2577
02:23:24,040 --> 02:23:24,680
That's good.
I'm.

2578
02:23:24,760 --> 02:23:28,000
Trying to go more digital with
this than waste less paper, but.

2579
02:23:28,640 --> 02:23:31,480
You know, I know some really,
really smart people like Richard

2580
02:23:31,480 --> 02:23:35,320
Branson still carries a physical
notebook wherever he goes all

2581
02:23:35,320 --> 02:23:37,360
the time.
He's got one and he's constantly

2582
02:23:37,360 --> 02:23:39,600
taking it out and handwriting
notes into it.

2583
02:23:40,200 --> 02:23:41,600
Whatever works for you, you
know?

2584
02:23:41,600 --> 02:23:43,920
For me, again, my phone's always
with me.

2585
02:23:44,120 --> 02:23:46,880
And that's the only reason that
I've become so disciplined about

2586
02:23:46,880 --> 02:23:50,000
putting notes into my phone.
And like I I go for a four or

2587
02:23:50,000 --> 02:23:52,760
five mile walk every morning at
about 6:00 in the morning.

2588
02:23:52,960 --> 02:23:58,960
I'm constantly saying, hey Siri,
remind me in 2 hours to make a

2589
02:23:59,160 --> 02:24:02,680
note about this or this or this.
Like I'm constantly talking to

2590
02:24:02,680 --> 02:24:08,240
it.
Excuse me, I just had to put the

2591
02:24:08,240 --> 02:24:12,840
volume down and sneeze.
So, you know, another thing I

2592
02:24:12,840 --> 02:24:14,960
read in your notes is that
you're a cat freak.

2593
02:24:14,960 --> 02:24:17,160
You're you're not a dog guy.
You're a cat guy.

2594
02:24:17,920 --> 02:24:20,120
I closed my door.
Otherwise the cat will be all

2595
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:24,120
over me here.
Yeah, we've been always into

2596
02:24:24,200 --> 02:24:26,560
cats, you know, but all the
traveling dogs are very

2597
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:29,160
difficult.
And I felt, yeah, that's a big

2598
02:24:29,160 --> 02:24:31,840
burden on my wife, you know,
being gone all the time.

2599
02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:33,760
She would have to deal with it
and walk with things.

2600
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:38,120
The weather here isn't so great
for dogs in the winter, you

2601
02:24:38,360 --> 02:24:40,280
know.
It's quite miserable for the

2602
02:24:40,280 --> 02:24:42,960
people as much As for the dogs.
Yeah, exactly.

2603
02:24:42,960 --> 02:24:47,440
What My neighbors are here.
I'm like, you're brave, but you

2604
02:24:47,440 --> 02:24:51,360
gotta go out and we we've been
doing like some cat rescue stuff

2605
02:24:51,360 --> 02:24:54,000
for the Humane Society, so.
Just that's cool.

2606
02:24:55,120 --> 02:24:57,160
I love cats.
And then, you know cats are.

2607
02:24:57,160 --> 02:24:59,240
Cool.
When you rescue cats, you kind

2608
02:24:59,240 --> 02:25:01,200
of keep them.
Yeah.

2609
02:25:02,320 --> 02:25:07,240
So at the moment we have 493
like like one that we there was

2610
02:25:07,240 --> 02:25:09,160
one that showed up in the winter
and just didn't leave.

2611
02:25:09,720 --> 02:25:12,120
That's interesting.
We call her Frosty because she's

2612
02:25:12,120 --> 02:25:15,240
white, showed up in the snow and
then she saw a little cat.

2613
02:25:15,800 --> 02:25:17,440
That's that's.
Quite an original name.

2614
02:25:17,560 --> 02:25:20,440
Matthias calling a white cat
Frosty.

2615
02:25:20,440 --> 02:25:23,560
Oh, that's out there.
It showed up in the snow.

2616
02:25:23,920 --> 02:25:26,280
Yeah, that's a good one.
I.

2617
02:25:27,040 --> 02:25:28,920
That Germans are funny.
We're just.

2618
02:25:28,960 --> 02:25:33,360
Yeah, it's true.
You think you're funny, You

2619
02:25:33,360 --> 02:25:35,560
know?
To me, cats, cats and dogs are

2620
02:25:35,560 --> 02:25:38,360
so.
It's so funny how different they

2621
02:25:38,360 --> 02:25:42,400
are, you know, like and and I
just like that whole sort of

2622
02:25:42,400 --> 02:25:45,680
cerebral, sort of genius side of
cats, how they're looking at you

2623
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:49,440
like thinking you're an idiot,
you know, and you can tell

2624
02:25:49,440 --> 02:25:53,600
that's what they're thinking.
And you know, whereas dogs are

2625
02:25:53,600 --> 02:25:57,240
just like I'm an idiot, you
know, dogs are completely the

2626
02:25:57,240 --> 02:25:59,800
opposite of cats in that way.
So it's pretty fun to watch

2627
02:25:59,800 --> 02:26:02,760
them.
I do enjoy my cats like.

2628
02:26:02,800 --> 02:26:08,080
Yeah, yeah.
So what else did we miss?

2629
02:26:08,080 --> 02:26:10,920
Here, you drive fast on the
Audubon.

2630
02:26:10,920 --> 02:26:12,920
I'm looking at your notes now.
So.

2631
02:26:13,960 --> 02:26:15,880
Patents.
You've got some patents.

2632
02:26:16,160 --> 02:26:17,640
Yeah, a few.
Yeah.

2633
02:26:18,240 --> 02:26:22,720
There was a big push to write
patents at Harmon actually back

2634
02:26:22,720 --> 02:26:23,600
then.
Yeah.

2635
02:26:23,600 --> 02:26:25,680
So we rolled up a bunch of
things.

2636
02:26:28,160 --> 02:26:30,440
And they let you.
They let you keep your name on

2637
02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:31,960
them, not not Harmon's name on
them.

2638
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:36,800
So the way it is with a patent
is that you're the inventor, but

2639
02:26:36,800 --> 02:26:39,680
the patent is then owned by
whoever you employed at.

2640
02:26:39,680 --> 02:26:42,480
The time I see.
You can invent all you want, but

2641
02:26:42,480 --> 02:26:45,680
if you're on the payroll, yeah,
you know, and that patent and

2642
02:26:45,680 --> 02:26:48,360
that IP technology is all.
They get the benefit.

2643
02:26:48,600 --> 02:26:50,160
Yeah, nobody's paying you
royalties.

2644
02:26:50,920 --> 02:26:52,680
There's no royalties coming my
way.

2645
02:26:53,040 --> 02:26:54,880
No.
And in the end, you know, you do

2646
02:26:54,880 --> 02:26:58,560
some patents to maybe protect
some idea that it isn't like

2647
02:26:58,560 --> 02:27:01,280
blatantly knocked off.
Yeah, there's a lot of patents

2648
02:27:01,280 --> 02:27:05,160
out there that are kind of
unnecessary, I think, and that

2649
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:06,640
you stifle.
Yeah.

2650
02:27:07,120 --> 02:27:10,760
Innovation.
But some are really good.

2651
02:27:10,960 --> 02:27:13,240
And I've read some stuff that
people come up with and I'm

2652
02:27:13,240 --> 02:27:15,160
like, that was really smart.
Yeah.

2653
02:27:16,120 --> 02:27:18,640
And they're so obvious, like,
why the hell did nobody else

2654
02:27:18,640 --> 02:27:20,120
think about that?
And that's a really good

2655
02:27:20,240 --> 02:27:24,440
patterns if it's some convoluted
thing where you're like

2656
02:27:24,440 --> 02:27:27,480
somebody's just really trying to
keep a lawyer busy here by

2657
02:27:27,480 --> 02:27:30,080
writing a lot of stuff.
Yeah.

2658
02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:33,600
Like, really good pens are
really short, and you're like,

2659
02:27:34,240 --> 02:27:35,720
all my.
I should have thought about

2660
02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:37,360
that.
Then you know it's a good one.

2661
02:27:37,680 --> 02:27:44,760
Well, what about PCM control,
PCM modulation control on on the

2662
02:27:45,640 --> 02:27:49,240
R, GB LEDs in color, kinetic
stuff.

2663
02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:51,160
Like I remember when they did
that.

2664
02:27:51,160 --> 02:27:54,640
Fausto said to me, Marcel, this
is the most he said your Patent

2665
02:27:54,640 --> 02:27:56,800
Office in the United States are
idiots.

2666
02:27:57,200 --> 02:27:59,440
And I said why?
And he said because I was

2667
02:27:59,440 --> 02:28:04,120
studying this stuff in the 70s,
in school, in textbooks, like

2668
02:28:04,200 --> 02:28:06,880
this is the oldest thing you
know.

2669
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:09,000
That's a good example of
something.

2670
02:28:09,000 --> 02:28:12,200
PWMPPWM isn't it?
Yeah.

2671
02:28:12,680 --> 02:28:15,560
Paul Smith with.
Pulse width modulation, yeah,

2672
02:28:15,840 --> 02:28:19,680
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean some of these

2673
02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:22,320
things that get patented and
then, you know, I've lost some

2674
02:28:22,320 --> 02:28:26,800
faith in, in the USPTO, the
Patent Office because.

2675
02:28:26,800 --> 02:28:29,240
There's a lot of stuff that gets
rubber stamped that shouldn't

2676
02:28:29,400 --> 02:28:32,240
because of like.
I got a trademark.

2677
02:28:32,760 --> 02:28:34,680
Because it costs money to
challenge it too.

2678
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:39,000
Yeah, I have AI have a trademark
hanging on my wall behind me

2679
02:28:39,400 --> 02:28:43,840
that one of the largest
companies in the world that

2680
02:28:43,840 --> 02:28:51,720
rhymes with smoogle stole from
me and began to use it and used

2681
02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:55,040
it for a couple of years and
eventually I sued them because

2682
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:56,800
they wouldn't communicate with
me.

2683
02:28:56,800 --> 02:28:59,800
They wouldn't do anything.
I was willing to license it to

2684
02:28:59,800 --> 02:29:03,640
them, give it to them, whatever.
You know, I I just I needed to

2685
02:29:03,640 --> 02:29:09,000
change the direction I was going
using this trademark and and

2686
02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:14,520
they made me sue them and I sued
them and cost me $1,000,000,

2687
02:29:15,200 --> 02:29:18,760
cost them about $12 million.
And I eventually had to settle

2688
02:29:18,760 --> 02:29:23,040
for zero and just walk away from
it because otherwise, you know I

2689
02:29:23,040 --> 02:29:26,560
could if they were to keep
crushing me the way they were

2690
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:31,040
trying to, I could end up liable
for their legal fees which would

2691
02:29:31,040 --> 02:29:35,360
have bankrupted me.
And so, yeah, I I don't have as

2692
02:29:35,360 --> 02:29:38,640
much faith as I used to in
patents and trademarks and stuff

2693
02:29:38,640 --> 02:29:43,520
because I think the whoever has
the deepest pockets wins is what

2694
02:29:43,520 --> 02:29:48,040
it comes to.
Yeah, patents, if they are

2695
02:29:48,040 --> 02:29:52,680
really protect like a unique
idea, they're good and I support

2696
02:29:52,680 --> 02:29:55,960
that.
Then, you know, have all the

2697
02:29:55,960 --> 02:29:58,320
admiration for people that go
through that process and come up

2698
02:29:58,320 --> 02:30:00,520
with something and really give,
make, make it right.

2699
02:30:00,680 --> 02:30:04,880
But if it's just protectionism,
then that's really a problem.

2700
02:30:05,120 --> 02:30:08,240
Yeah, yeah.
I also read here that you bought

2701
02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:09,960
a hog two and a wing like
recently.

2702
02:30:10,360 --> 02:30:13,240
Yeah, yeah, I found it on eBay
for like 900 bucks and it

2703
02:30:13,240 --> 02:30:14,240
wasn't.
No way.

2704
02:30:14,640 --> 02:30:17,600
And I'm like, I kind of want to
own a bit of, like my own

2705
02:30:17,600 --> 02:30:19,280
history.
That's wild that.

2706
02:30:19,560 --> 02:30:22,360
Many around anymore, yeah.
So I have a matter of rental,

2707
02:30:22,360 --> 02:30:25,000
like a production house up here
in Minnesota.

2708
02:30:25,200 --> 02:30:28,720
Oh, that's cool.
We have this whole Museum of old

2709
02:30:28,720 --> 02:30:31,360
stuff, which somebody should
actually really catalogue.

2710
02:30:31,360 --> 02:30:32,920
They have what they have.
I have a lot of mountain

2711
02:30:32,920 --> 02:30:34,600
prototypes that stand around
there.

2712
02:30:35,120 --> 02:30:37,840
That's cool they.
Didn't want back, so we put them

2713
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:40,600
up there just to show them off.
Neat.

2714
02:30:40,800 --> 02:30:44,520
They got the virtual ozone, they
got some old strand light

2715
02:30:44,520 --> 02:30:47,320
pallets, like some really old
sitting around there.

2716
02:30:47,320 --> 02:30:49,440
Wow.
You have to have you ever seen a

2717
02:30:49,440 --> 02:30:52,400
picture of, like, barn doors out
of two Avo consoles?

2718
02:30:52,680 --> 02:30:55,400
Like for a conference room?
No.

2719
02:30:56,480 --> 02:30:59,080
So they have these old, like, I
think it's QM5 hundreds.

2720
02:30:59,080 --> 02:31:01,120
And they hung them sideways.
Turn them on and they're like

2721
02:31:01,120 --> 02:31:03,960
the doors for the content that's
wild on door tracks.

2722
02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:09,440
That's a cool idea.
So tell me some of your new

2723
02:31:09,440 --> 02:31:15,240
stuff at Adulation.
Like I heard you showed a follow

2724
02:31:15,240 --> 02:31:17,560
spot fixture, right?
Yeah.

2725
02:31:17,560 --> 02:31:22,520
So what we did, so we've seen
some people that took the IP

2726
02:31:22,520 --> 02:31:26,480
picture from us Maximus and then
there's another called Brutus.

2727
02:31:28,640 --> 02:31:32,080
They are you know, very high
output long distance, you know

2728
02:31:32,120 --> 02:31:36,040
sort of fixtures and they've
been used for some of the follow

2729
02:31:36,040 --> 02:31:38,320
spot systems that are out there.
And we're like you know there's

2730
02:31:38,440 --> 02:31:42,480
probably a market for instead of
us doing a new follow spot

2731
02:31:42,480 --> 02:31:47,280
system, we actually build
picture that's great for the and

2732
02:31:47,280 --> 02:31:50,280
Zach tracks and other systems
that are out there.

2733
02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:53,960
Yeah.
And basically build a fixture

2734
02:31:53,960 --> 02:31:58,200
was an optimized optics and the
ability to build a camera on in

2735
02:31:58,200 --> 02:32:02,240
the IP chassis and have all the
wiring inside and is ready to go

2736
02:32:02,240 --> 02:32:04,760
and you just buy the light click
the camera and you want.

2737
02:32:05,280 --> 02:32:08,600
Yeah.
And run it over DMX and you have

2738
02:32:08,600 --> 02:32:12,120
full, you know it's like a
purpose build fixture for these.

2739
02:32:13,640 --> 02:32:15,640
Yeah.
And how was that?

2740
02:32:16,080 --> 02:32:18,680
There's almost no more regular
follow spots out there.

2741
02:32:18,680 --> 02:32:22,160
Everything is some sort of
automated thing.

2742
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:25,360
Yeah, you know, like Wizzywick
tried those really hard.

2743
02:32:25,360 --> 02:32:28,880
For a while it was black tracks
and that was quite early, but

2744
02:32:28,880 --> 02:32:31,120
now there's so many of these
systems out there.

2745
02:32:31,200 --> 02:32:33,880
Well, remember the Martin one?
How bad that was?

2746
02:32:34,320 --> 02:32:35,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

2747
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:37,840
Early days.
Yeah, that.

2748
02:32:38,440 --> 02:32:42,680
I mean, nice, Nice try, but Oh
my God, it was terrible.

2749
02:32:43,280 --> 02:32:45,800
We see these people building the
Franken fixtures and having the

2750
02:32:45,800 --> 02:32:48,280
wires on the outside.
Yeah, it's just great.

2751
02:32:48,280 --> 02:32:51,200
And we're like, let's build 1
where it's really put properly

2752
02:32:51,200 --> 02:32:53,960
on the inside and you have
basically a big connection panel

2753
02:32:53,960 --> 02:32:57,200
for your camera and then you can
use whatever camera you want.

2754
02:32:57,200 --> 02:33:02,200
Can be an NDI with Poe power,
can be an SDI camera.

2755
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:04,000
We don't really care.
Yeah.

2756
02:33:04,800 --> 02:33:06,840
So how was designed?
Around with seven or eight

2757
02:33:06,840 --> 02:33:08,680
common cameras that I used out
there.

2758
02:33:09,160 --> 02:33:10,760
Was that well received at the
show?

2759
02:33:11,320 --> 02:33:13,440
Yes, very.
It was popular.

2760
02:33:14,240 --> 02:33:17,120
Yep.
I mean there's obviously limited

2761
02:33:17,120 --> 02:33:22,000
market for follow spot fixtures
because you need 6810 maybe on a

2762
02:33:22,000 --> 02:33:25,560
larger tour.
Yeah, yeah, but there is a

2763
02:33:25,560 --> 02:33:28,040
shortage for them.
You know, like we're constantly

2764
02:33:28,040 --> 02:33:31,200
at Gearsource, we're constantly
getting people looking for you

2765
02:33:31,200 --> 02:33:36,560
know robo spot fixtures or
whatever and and there seems to

2766
02:33:36,560 --> 02:33:40,960
be a shortage And then like you
said, you've got they're not

2767
02:33:40,960 --> 02:33:45,040
purpose built so you've got
things with the Frankenfixture

2768
02:33:45,040 --> 02:33:47,960
look to it and stuff.
So this is safer, better,

2769
02:33:47,960 --> 02:33:51,520
cleaner, probably cheaper in the
end, and.

2770
02:33:52,520 --> 02:33:56,880
Well, what we really tried to do
is also build the optics to be

2771
02:33:57,400 --> 02:34:02,120
for a follow spot.
So it's like a narrow optic in

2772
02:34:02,120 --> 02:34:04,960
the same housing as a normal
type fixture.

2773
02:34:04,960 --> 02:34:09,240
So which was it took a custom
LED engine and custom optics to

2774
02:34:10,240 --> 02:34:13,240
squeeze that into a fixture
without it getting humongous.

2775
02:34:13,240 --> 02:34:17,000
Cuz we look at some of these new
LED super trooper type follow

2776
02:34:17,000 --> 02:34:18,200
spots.
You're like, man, these things

2777
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:20,600
are like massive, yeah, side of
the car.

2778
02:34:20,960 --> 02:34:23,120
Yeah, yeah.
That's not the direction.

2779
02:34:23,120 --> 02:34:25,800
Kind of wrong to me.
I don't think those companies

2780
02:34:25,800 --> 02:34:29,120
will be around long term.
It doesn't seem like it.

2781
02:34:29,240 --> 02:34:31,960
This seems to be a better
direction to go, especially

2782
02:34:31,960 --> 02:34:34,880
trust spots.
There's no reason to have people

2783
02:34:34,880 --> 02:34:38,120
in in chairs on.
No, I trust being allowed

2784
02:34:38,120 --> 02:34:39,520
anymore.
Like there's somebody help

2785
02:34:39,720 --> 02:34:41,920
safety regulations.
You can't just send the guy up

2786
02:34:41,920 --> 02:34:46,400
there for 10 hours with a pee
bag because yeah, really.

2787
02:34:46,800 --> 02:34:49,720
I can't see a problem with that,
no.

2788
02:34:49,720 --> 02:34:51,440
I mean, that seems to make a lot
of sense.

2789
02:34:51,440 --> 02:34:53,200
So that's cool.
What else did you guys come out

2790
02:34:53,200 --> 02:34:54,680
with?
I saw a couple other fixtures

2791
02:34:54,680 --> 02:34:56,400
that you were showing there.
Stuff, yeah.

2792
02:34:56,400 --> 02:34:59,920
We've been actually working for
about four years on on trying to

2793
02:34:59,920 --> 02:35:03,560
crack this like Searchlight
Markets, you know, just sort of

2794
02:35:03,560 --> 02:35:07,560
like Synchro Light Space Cannon.
And that's actually a project we

2795
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:13,520
started before COVID actually
and that kind of got put on hold

2796
02:35:13,520 --> 02:35:16,560
for a few years.
But we actually bought an old

2797
02:35:17,040 --> 02:35:21,320
space cannon for 1000 bucks at
an auction somewhere from a very

2798
02:35:21,400 --> 02:35:26,880
large rental company and used it
as a reference to basically

2799
02:35:26,880 --> 02:35:29,240
replicate that look.
Because there's a certain

2800
02:35:29,600 --> 02:35:33,560
character to that beam that's
coming out and all these like

2801
02:35:33,560 --> 02:35:36,960
laser type fixtures, which is
like this really perfect little

2802
02:35:36,960 --> 02:35:41,160
light beams come out, but they
just don't have the same look in

2803
02:35:41,160 --> 02:35:44,120
the air because they're they're
missing a bit of the Halo around

2804
02:35:44,120 --> 02:35:46,400
it.
Like you look at a Sharpie, it's

2805
02:35:46,400 --> 02:35:49,120
actually not a perfect clean
beam that comes out.

2806
02:35:49,120 --> 02:35:52,600
There's a lot of schmutz on the
outside in a way that kind of

2807
02:35:52,920 --> 02:35:56,480
lights up the air around and
that gives the beam some.

2808
02:35:57,160 --> 02:35:59,320
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah, I completely.

2809
02:35:59,400 --> 02:36:01,760
Understand, Perfect.
And it doesn't read on camera

2810
02:36:01,760 --> 02:36:04,680
and you have to just like thin
little light sticks and they

2811
02:36:04,680 --> 02:36:08,280
just don't have the same look as
a you know that choppy or like

2812
02:36:08,720 --> 02:36:12,000
old like Xenon type picture.
So we actually looked into Xenon

2813
02:36:12,000 --> 02:36:14,560
technology back then.
We worked with a company that

2814
02:36:14,560 --> 02:36:19,000
does a lot of the digital
projection for like Christie or

2815
02:36:19,000 --> 02:36:22,800
Barcode, but that's kind of been
a dying thing and they've been

2816
02:36:22,800 --> 02:36:25,640
all moving more to like laser
type engines.

2817
02:36:26,960 --> 02:36:28,760
But then that technology wasn't
quite right.

2818
02:36:28,760 --> 02:36:33,520
So it took a few years to really
mature that and get that output

2819
02:36:33,520 --> 02:36:35,200
and get the right beam
character.

2820
02:36:36,320 --> 02:36:41,200
But now I've seen it against 7K
synchros and 7K space cannons

2821
02:36:41,200 --> 02:36:46,680
and that kind of fixtures.
And let's say that we really

2822
02:36:46,680 --> 02:36:50,160
cracked it because we're really
focused on the character of the

2823
02:36:50,160 --> 02:36:51,440
beam.
So it wasn't like make the

2824
02:36:51,440 --> 02:36:54,560
brightest fixture that can throw
the furthest, but build the one

2825
02:36:54,560 --> 02:36:56,760
that has the right look to
represent.

2826
02:36:56,760 --> 02:37:00,480
Is it a lamp or an LED?
That's phosphor converted.

2827
02:37:01,040 --> 02:37:02,400
OK.
Yeah.

2828
02:37:02,880 --> 02:37:06,360
Yeah.
And it's just white or it's full

2829
02:37:06,360 --> 02:37:09,320
color?
It's a white engine.

2830
02:37:10,120 --> 02:37:12,160
That's the only way to get that.
Intention.

2831
02:37:12,240 --> 02:37:14,120
No, no.
But do you have color on it?

2832
02:37:14,320 --> 02:37:16,560
Does it have flags or something?
Or a color wheel.

2833
02:37:16,600 --> 02:37:19,120
Or actually it looks on the
inside almost like a regular

2834
02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:21,560
moving light.
So you have normal color flags,

2835
02:37:21,560 --> 02:37:25,840
Gobos, prisms, OK, hybrid that's
just designed for this.

2836
02:37:25,840 --> 02:37:30,400
Like super long throw optics has
a massive 12 inch front lens.

2837
02:37:32,360 --> 02:37:33,520
Huh.
And really try to get this like

2838
02:37:33,520 --> 02:37:37,920
fat beam look out of a picture
that isn't like you don't need a

2839
02:37:37,920 --> 02:37:42,960
pallet to to move it around and
you know, 63 amps of power, but

2840
02:37:43,600 --> 02:37:45,840
it's, you know, it takes 500
watts.

2841
02:37:45,880 --> 02:37:48,680
So really big, big drop from
7000.

2842
02:37:48,680 --> 02:37:50,760
Interesting.
Yeah. 500 watts.

2843
02:37:50,760 --> 02:37:53,040
Wow.
And are you making like a

2844
02:37:53,040 --> 02:37:55,880
package?
Like with four on one base, 4

2845
02:37:55,880 --> 02:37:58,880
heads on one base.
So it's actually something we

2846
02:37:58,880 --> 02:38:01,320
did on a previous fixture like
that that's called the

2847
02:38:01,320 --> 02:38:05,040
Excalibur, which is like the
Searchlight type beam that was

2848
02:38:05,040 --> 02:38:09,000
still based on a discharge, yeah
lamp.

2849
02:38:09,920 --> 02:38:13,360
And we built this little
technology called Sky Motion,

2850
02:38:13,480 --> 02:38:18,680
which is basically studied the
physical movement pattern of

2851
02:38:18,680 --> 02:38:20,320
these things because they're
actually mechanical.

2852
02:38:20,320 --> 02:38:23,320
There's a little arm that shifts
some things around and they're

2853
02:38:23,320 --> 02:38:24,840
not doing a belly here in the
sky.

2854
02:38:24,840 --> 02:38:28,280
There's an actual really
distinct pattern called over

2855
02:38:28,280 --> 02:38:29,200
leaf.
Yeah.

2856
02:38:29,200 --> 02:38:31,960
Looked at a lot of videos.
I went to like some State Fair

2857
02:38:31,960 --> 02:38:34,040
here and looked how that thing
actually moves because the

2858
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:36,280
lights never crossed in the air.
When they do this, they do this.

2859
02:38:36,320 --> 02:38:38,200
Yeah.
Do you ever rest your brain?

2860
02:38:38,200 --> 02:38:41,880
No, not so much.
Yeah.

2861
02:38:41,920 --> 02:38:43,120
Things.
Yeah.

2862
02:38:43,800 --> 02:38:45,840
So we made this thing where you
just basically tell the pictures

2863
02:38:45,840 --> 02:38:49,680
and ID and anybody can rent
these four lights and do like an

2864
02:38:49,680 --> 02:38:51,360
opening for a car dealer if they
want to.

2865
02:38:51,360 --> 02:38:53,680
Like you don't have to be a
lighting person, you just plug

2866
02:38:53,680 --> 02:38:56,280
them in.
You say 1234 how big and how

2867
02:38:56,280 --> 02:38:59,480
fast and you get this perfect
Searchlight effect.

2868
02:38:59,480 --> 02:39:01,600
So we put this into a couple of
pictures now.

2869
02:39:02,200 --> 02:39:04,520
Interesting.
I'm always like this, and I

2870
02:39:04,520 --> 02:39:06,840
think I've wrote it in this
little thing I sent you.

2871
02:39:06,840 --> 02:39:10,040
I was at the dentist staring at
the light and I'm like, wow,

2872
02:39:10,040 --> 02:39:13,040
those facets look amazing.
Oh my God.

2873
02:39:13,160 --> 02:39:16,120
Cleaning lady and that was
cleaning my teeth.

2874
02:39:16,120 --> 02:39:18,320
I wanted to start and like I've
got to take a picture of this

2875
02:39:18,320 --> 02:39:19,640
first because I.
Oh my God.

2876
02:39:20,280 --> 02:39:21,880
That's, you know thing that you
look at.

2877
02:39:21,880 --> 02:39:25,240
It looks so interesting to me.
Yeah, that's crazy.

2878
02:39:25,240 --> 02:39:29,600
I would look past, you know, the
obvious maybe and see patterns

2879
02:39:29,600 --> 02:39:31,760
or take pictures of the
strangest things we'll see on

2880
02:39:31,760 --> 02:39:34,640
the floor for like maybe a go
ball or maybe it's like a

2881
02:39:34,640 --> 02:39:39,000
background pattern for consoles
for this like dialos, pixel

2882
02:39:39,000 --> 02:39:41,360
engine we do.
So there's a lot of stuff in

2883
02:39:41,360 --> 02:39:45,040
there, content that's in there
that is just some picture shot

2884
02:39:45,040 --> 02:39:48,280
on a cell phone and then maybe
stylized to the bed that's and

2885
02:39:48,280 --> 02:39:50,040
then make a goblet out of it,
you know?

2886
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:52,320
Yeah, yeah.
That's interesting.

2887
02:39:52,520 --> 02:39:54,960
No, I mean, it's amazing where
your inspiration comes from,

2888
02:39:54,960 --> 02:39:57,760
right?
Like, sometimes probably the

2889
02:39:57,760 --> 02:40:00,560
weirdest things, like a light
above the dentist chair, you

2890
02:40:00,560 --> 02:40:04,960
know, it's it's amazing.
I don't think that way at all.

2891
02:40:04,960 --> 02:40:07,600
Like, I'm not a I'm very
creative.

2892
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:11,880
But I'm not a I'm not an
engineer, you know, I'm not a

2893
02:40:11,880 --> 02:40:14,720
product designer.
But I can come up with loads of

2894
02:40:14,720 --> 02:40:17,080
ideas.
Like, you know, I was always at

2895
02:40:17,080 --> 02:40:18,760
Martin, even.
I was always saying, why don't

2896
02:40:18,760 --> 02:40:19,760
we do this?
Why don't we do this?

2897
02:40:19,760 --> 02:40:21,280
Why don't we do this?
And some of those things

2898
02:40:21,280 --> 02:40:24,680
happened, some didn't.
So yeah, I'm always trying to

2899
02:40:24,680 --> 02:40:27,400
break things I guess, but at the
same time I don't know how to

2900
02:40:27,400 --> 02:40:32,760
put them back together.
I think most people that do

2901
02:40:32,920 --> 02:40:36,280
these kind of jobs always been
like they got a toy as a kid and

2902
02:40:36,280 --> 02:40:39,040
the first thing they took as a
screwdriver to then take it

2903
02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:40,600
apart.
Yeah, that's crazy.

2904
02:40:40,960 --> 02:40:45,120
Tink tinker with things.
Yeah, yeah, I did, I did.

2905
02:40:45,120 --> 02:40:47,280
And then I ended up with a
broken toy and a pissed off

2906
02:40:47,280 --> 02:40:49,680
parent, you know, because they
just gave me that.

2907
02:40:49,800 --> 02:40:52,320
That new toy.
Yeah, yeah.

2908
02:40:52,320 --> 02:40:54,920
Because I I could never figure
out how to put it back together

2909
02:40:54,920 --> 02:40:56,480
because I don't have any
patience.

2910
02:40:56,720 --> 02:41:00,640
So you know if it takes.
Like this, I take a prototype

2911
02:41:00,640 --> 02:41:02,760
apart and there's like a couple
of screws left over.

2912
02:41:02,760 --> 02:41:05,160
In the end, I'm like, Oh my, it
still works.

2913
02:41:05,520 --> 02:41:09,520
Yeah, luckily I have much
smarter people around me that do

2914
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:11,960
a lot of the actual technical
things.

2915
02:41:12,120 --> 02:41:16,360
So I'm not, you know, I'm not
the guy in the end who really

2916
02:41:16,440 --> 02:41:20,280
decides where every screw goes.
There's a much, much bigger team

2917
02:41:20,280 --> 02:41:23,280
behind it.
So I mean the role that we play

2918
02:41:23,480 --> 02:41:27,200
is, you know, role was sort of
that building, you know,

2919
02:41:27,280 --> 02:41:32,000
creative instruments and very
mostly what comes out the front

2920
02:41:32,000 --> 02:41:35,760
and what choices we make to to
help creative people have like

2921
02:41:35,760 --> 02:41:37,360
amazing products.
It's got to be.

2922
02:41:37,800 --> 02:41:39,360
Huge engineering team that
actually makes.

2923
02:41:40,200 --> 02:41:42,680
It's got to be hard though, when
you're separated from the

2924
02:41:42,680 --> 02:41:46,800
factory because you know, like
when you can run back into the

2925
02:41:46,800 --> 02:41:49,760
factory and say, hey, bend this,
do this, do this, do this, and

2926
02:41:49,760 --> 02:41:51,480
then you can go tinker with
things.

2927
02:41:52,400 --> 02:41:55,200
It's obviously probably much
easier.

2928
02:41:56,200 --> 02:41:59,040
In a sense, I don't know.
Do you use rapid prototyping or

2929
02:41:59,040 --> 02:42:00,440
anything?
I'm guessing.

2930
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:02,640
I do.
I have a place here that can

2931
02:42:02,640 --> 02:42:04,400
print me a couple of 3D things
here and there.

2932
02:42:04,400 --> 02:42:06,960
So if I need something simple
like a knob or like a handle, I

2933
02:42:06,960 --> 02:42:09,560
want to see it.
So I got the Frank Frontier that

2934
02:42:09,560 --> 02:42:12,120
owns a company called Monkey
Wrench and he does a lot of,

2935
02:42:13,400 --> 02:42:16,080
yes, like a nice 3D system there
where I can print out stuff

2936
02:42:16,080 --> 02:42:18,480
quickly.
Yeah, and buy him lunch.

2937
02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:19,840
And that's a really good.
Deal.

2938
02:42:20,240 --> 02:42:23,520
Yeah, that is a good deal.
Yeah, that is a good deal.

2939
02:42:24,080 --> 02:42:24,720
Seth.
Seth.

2940
02:42:24,800 --> 02:42:28,040
Is a good guy.
Maybe a bit more disconnected,

2941
02:42:28,040 --> 02:42:31,520
but then I spend a lot of time
in the factories, like I'm there

2942
02:42:31,520 --> 02:42:32,880
quite a lot.
Yeah.

2943
02:42:33,320 --> 02:42:36,360
Yeah.
Like every quarter, every month.

2944
02:42:37,200 --> 02:42:38,640
Every other months, usually.
Yeah.

2945
02:42:38,680 --> 02:42:41,520
Wow.
Yeah, that's that's a lot.

2946
02:42:41,600 --> 02:42:45,320
That's a big trip.
Well, I I, I, I really

2947
02:42:45,320 --> 02:42:48,600
appreciate you taking all the
time with me today and and

2948
02:42:48,680 --> 02:42:53,200
finally, you know, being able to
do this, I appreciate it very

2949
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:55,080
much.
You're a smart guy and I always

2950
02:42:55,080 --> 02:42:57,560
wanted to dig into your brain a
little bit and see how things

2951
02:42:57,560 --> 02:43:00,120
work.
I don't know if I'm that smart.

2952
02:43:00,120 --> 02:43:03,160
I got very lucky in many, many
steps instead of, you know,

2953
02:43:03,200 --> 02:43:06,000
there's so many coincidences
that led to where I am, you

2954
02:43:06,000 --> 02:43:07,080
know?
You know.

2955
02:43:07,960 --> 02:43:10,960
Could be a grunt somewhere
pulling cables in Germany still.

2956
02:43:10,960 --> 02:43:13,520
And you know, I just got
fortunate.

2957
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:17,040
Well, I think luck makes up such
a big part of all of our

2958
02:43:17,040 --> 02:43:19,240
careers.
You know, like I I didn't go to

2959
02:43:19,240 --> 02:43:21,560
college to get into this
industry.

2960
02:43:21,560 --> 02:43:24,640
I I was a musician and kind of
fell into this industry.

2961
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:27,920
So, you know, there's a lot of
luck involved all the time.

2962
02:43:28,120 --> 02:43:32,760
Usually good, sometimes bad.
But yeah, no, that's a good

2963
02:43:32,760 --> 02:43:36,360
thing and I appreciate you doing
it and I love to keep you all

2964
02:43:36,360 --> 02:43:41,960
day, but unfortunately I can't.
So I am going to bid you

2965
02:43:41,960 --> 02:43:44,400
farewell my friend.
Thank you so much.

2966
02:43:44,720 --> 02:43:47,520
And thank you as well and I look
forward to seeing you at one of

2967
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:49,880
the trade shows here soon all.
Right.

2968
02:43:50,320 --> 02:43:51,200
All right.
Ciao,

2969
02:44:05,760 --> 02:44:06,000
yeah.