#232 - Thomas Kubik / Tour Manager and FOH Engineer

0:02 Hello and thank you for joining me again today for our very second live promo broadcast on all sorts of different social media platforms and YouTube as well. So thank you for joining me. Today is Geezers of Gear Episode #232. At least it's the promo for 232, which will launch next week on Thursday, March 28th. And today's podcast is brought to you by a new sponsor, Ultimate Support Systems. For over 45 years, Ultimate Support Systems has provided musicians with unique Support Solutions that are crafted with unparalleled innovation and quality. Ultimate Support has always been determined to invent, design and manufacture the smartest Support Solutions and music accessories in the music industry, and that commitment to innovation continues to this day.

1:01 Be sure to visit ultimatesupport.com where you can learn all about their solutions for content creators, touring, musicians, recording studios, and more. From acoustic treatment to best in class speaker stands, Ultimate Support has premium accessories you can count on and I will add that my new microphone boom arm right here is brought to you by Ultimate Support Systems. By far the best microphone boom arm I have had for my podcast. This episode is also brought to you today by Gearsource. Gearsource was founded in 2002 with a mission to help global live events businesses move gear around the planet.

1:44 Since that time, the company has transacted in more than 100 countries and has sold 1/4 billion dollars and sound, lighting, staging and video gear. Gearsource recently completely evolved its platform for massive global growth, enabling 14 different localized currencies, payments held in escrow to protect buyers and sellers, AI powered logistics behind a new global logistics brand, gear moves and so much more. Visit gearsource.com today and expand your access to global markets for your gear and global gear for your markets. Yes, so episode #232.

2:55 But first back to talking about Pro lights. So this week Pro Lights and sound is going on in Frankfurt, Germany. Certainly one of the best shows in the past. It's questionable as to whether or not it'll be the best show in the future because it seems to be shrinking quickly. Sadly, because it used to be probably the biggest sound lighting video staging show in the world. It used to be partnered with Music Mesa. It used to be massive 9 or 10 halls I think, and it just seems to be shrinking. So we'll see what happens to the future of pro Lights. Maybe I'll get somebody on from that show and they can tell me what they're doing, where what what they're planning, etcetera.

3:39 So if anyone knows anyone who's involved in the planning and organization of pro lights, please have them contact producer at geezersofgear.com and Sarah will get us set up for a chat and we can talk about what's going on with the show, what you're doing to protect the future of the show, how it's going to grow, etcetera. So at that show, lots and lots of new products have been announced. We talked about a few of them yesterday, but also I was reading about the AVO D7 Ava lights of course recently purchased by Roby and that is ramping up not only their product development but their manufacturing capabilities as well. And I think we're going to see a lot of really great things coming out of AVO.

4:27 You know it's going to take them some time and effort and energy and people and talent and everything else to catch up to MA on the top end of the market. But I think that middle and lower end of the market, even the top end, but I think the middle and lower end, certainly MA have not expanded to a point where you've completely blocked competitors. And that's allowed really great companies like Obsidian and others, Camsys and and certainly Ava Lights, who you know is kind of the originator of the rock'n'roll lighting desk. So we'll see where it goes. Obviously their D9 is their flagship console, their big call it the grand MA of the Ava line.

5:10 It's been making some noise, but I would say it hasn't taken over the market by any stretch. We'll see what happens again under the Ruby banner. It's it's much more powerful console than it used to be just from a standpoint of world, you know, global distribution, global strength resources etcetera. But now they introduced the D7 which I saw in a social media post somewhere. Someone commented that the D7 is AD nine that you can check as baggage. And so it's a very good point. It's basically a a mini me of the D9 which call it the, you know, the MA 3 micro or whatever similar to that console I guess.

5:57 But I expect to see big things from that, maybe AD 7, we'll give them more of an intro into the the large scale market, the bigger end of the market and we'll see. You know, again, maybe if someone from AVO, you know, I used to talk with Steve Warren all the time, but I don't know anyone else at AVO. If anyone wants to come on and talk about, you know, the road map, where it's going, how the brand has changed, how the company's changed, feel free again. Reach out to producer@geezersofgear.com and one of my favorite brands. I have a bunch, but this is one of them. Ayrton. And so I am afraid to even pronounce the name of this new product But Kayalami and so it looks like a magic dot. It seems to act a lot like a magic dot, but it has a laser light source in it and it's IP65. They're calling this part of an extreme miniaturization line of product and supposedly it does a lot of really cool stuff, lots of effects packed into a very, very small package with a really bright and intense light source, which is a laser. And so that's exciting.

7:09 You know, seeing Airton miniaturize a laser sourced fixture is, is really exciting. I think that's a sign of great things to come not only from Airton, but other manufacturers as well. I know a lot of people are playing with lasers right now, and we'll see where that goes. And of course, if the US would ever get our shit together and get the laser lighting fixtures out of the hands of the Food and Drug Administration, from a standpoint of of, you know, it just doesn't make any sense. You know, what do they know about laser lighting and its impact on your eyes and stuff like that? Like otherwise, you know, they'd get rid of Sharpies and a lot of other beam effects that are probably much more dangerous than than some of these lasers.

7:54 So anyways, we'll see where that goes. I know a lot of companies are certainly lobbying for changes, but we'll see where that goes. Also from Airton is a Nando Wash and neat name. I don't know much about it. I I cannot tell you what differentiates the Nando Wash from all of the other LED wash lights that Airton has come out with recently. And maybe I'll talk to Ayrton about that and get more information. But I don't really know what differentiates this one other than it's IP65, but they've got other IP65 LED wash lights. So we'll see. We'll have to come back to that. One looks cool and lots and lots of IP rated stuff, one that was a little confusing. GLP announced a bunch of fixtures that have IP in the name, but I couldn't see any IP in the specs. So I would assume that IP in the name, like there's a there was a bunch of them and you know there's an impression something or other IP and just a bunch of GLP fixtures that have IP in the name.

8:59 And so I assumed that that's an IP range. You know they're they're weatherproof, but it didn't list that in the specs or at least from the posts that I was able to see. So moving on to episode #232, Thomas, and I'm not sure if he pronounces it cubic or Kubic, but Thomas Kubic, I'm going to call him. And so today's guest was introduced to me by Sarah, our producer, who I don't know if people know this, but Sarah used to tour and that was sort of how I got introduced to Sarah to begin with. She was touring, I think mostly in hospitality and catering, and Sarah met this gentleman Thomas on tour where he was working with In Flames and it was a Five Finger Death Punch and In Flames tour.

9:50 In Flames is a very heavy metal band and and you know, so they met, hit it off, got to be friends or whatever. And Sarah thought, hey, he'd be a great guest. But it's funny because Sarah thought he was the manager for In Flames because he did so many different jobs with them, as you'll hear in his bio coming up here in a second and lo and behold finds out he's the sound engineer. So Thomas started his career 28 years ago, took the classic course from stagehand to behind the console and touring. He has been touring since 1999 with Euro and metal bands including In Flames, Nevermore, Arch, Enemy, Fear Factory, Angra Lacuna, Coil, Moon Spell, Chimera, and Willie Nelson's Luck Reunion in Austin. One of those just doesn't fit in, does it? Thomas has been extremely lucky to travel to pretty much every continent.

10:49 Thomas has been within flames for 25 years in June as their sound engineer and tour manager, or, in Thomas's words, the babysitter. Thomas loves coffee, wine and champagne and generally good food. We'll be finding out a lot more about Thomas's career, talking gear, what he's been up to recently, and what he has in store for this year. So please welcome Thomas Kubik. And for those of you who are viewing this live, I'll see you next week. In Flames and Five Finger Death Punch And I was like kind of like, Oh my God, like this is going to be insane. And like, you know, like I'd never like worked with, you know, metal like that. And then I got there and everybody was as soft as anything. That's usually how it is they.

11:35 Didn't scare you like you thought metal people would scare you. Yeah. Yeah. And literally it was like, I mean, OK, did you think they? Like burned they sacrificed babies and burned crosses. And what did you think? I don't know. I just thought it was gonna be like, really crazy. But I remember the very first, I think the first couple of days because of Five Finger, they were like Alcoholics Anonymous, weren't they? So it was like. Some of them, no. Yeah, no alcohol was allowed. And I well, it was your camp. That was like, no way, just because you've got a problem. And then that all changed. So they were drinking, they were drinking vodka to sippy cups and stuff.

12:18 Yeah, seriously. But anyway, it was great, so enjoy the show guys. Sarah, Sarah, Any other stories you'd like to share while we're recording here? No, I don't think so. I got I now. Now you've put me on the spot. The only thing I always remember is coming back into the dressing room when everyone has finished. And Thomas would always have a bottle of champagne. Nothing else. Always champagne. Again, very unmetal. Seriously. Yeah, Very. Well, there we are. It's not wine. It's champagne. Very unmetal. I mean, unless you're drinking it out of the bottle. I only do that on very few.

12:58 Occasions. Yeah. Only only when you've run out of glasses. Yeah. All right, Sarah, you're out. Bye. We have to get serious now. We can't have you sitting there yapping at us the whole time. So that was an interesting start to the podcast. I hit record while Sarah was blabbing and I need to do that more often because occasionally she says something brilliant. So Thomas, welcome is so do you pronounce your last name Kubic or Kubic? I would guess Kubic sounds more German to me. That's. Yeah, yeah. Although it's not German, I think it's Czech or whatever. Oh, OK. Originally, yeah. Sounds like there's a story there. But that's that's the right the right pronunciation. So forever more it will be Kubic and I think I said it right in the intro anyway, so that's good. So you know, it's it's nice that we had Sarah here to kind of greet you on because Sarah, you're the 1st guest I think that she brought from her camp of people. That she met on the.

14:04 Road and just thought were really cool people and and so she was pretty excited to get you on so. Fantastic. So thanks for I did. I had no idea that she's doing that now. Then like, you know, it was like out of the blue basically so. Well, on Crete, there's not so many jobs. I mean, basically you could collect plastic off the beaches, you could make kebabs, or you could, you know, be a producer for a podcast in Florida. You. Know. Yeah, yeah, sure. Why not? Just not many, not many opportunities. And so she tripped over this one. No, I was introduced from a friend. You probably don't know Gordon, but I was introduced by Gordon who works with production Park and and knew Sarah from there. And yeah, we just, we hit it off and next thing you know she became I.

14:57 It's funny because I actually put a a notice on my Facebook or something saying hey, anybody want a part time easy gig being a producer for a podcast And she was like I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you even consider me? Me. And I said you're hired. I mean, not only would I consider you, it's over. So yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So she says she met you and we'll just continue down this story on a tour that was Five Finger Death Punch and In Flames. And she mentioned earlier on this, this recording, that Five Finger Death Punch were, I guess, in recovery, right?

15:37 So they had, I get parts of it or parts of them definitely, definitely were, Yeah. We didn't really get too much into the detail of that either, because usually it's just like, OK. Those, whatever. Those are always interesting situations though. I remember like Aerosmith early or in their career, when I think when they first decided to get sober and then fell off and then fell back on and then fell off again. But when they first did, they were really religious about it, like you couldn't have alcohol or drugs or anything within miles of the arena. No, I mean we usually, I mean being based in Sweden and, you know, Scandinavian people are, you know, they like to drink. So it's been it.

16:34 It was very surprising on day one that all of a sudden, you know, somebody came up and it's like, oh, you can't do. What do you mean we can't? This is like this is not going to work, you know, because it's like that just ruins the. Movie part of their daily, part of their daily ritual, right? Like, it's just what they do. Exactly. Nothing bad, you know. I mean, if it would have been communicated in the, you know, in advance or whatever it would it would be, it would have been a different story, I guess, But it would still and no, but at least like it would have been prepared somehow that there's something going on. You know, I get it because this was definitely not the first tour where something like this was going on.

17:19 Like I remember back in 2003 or 2004 when we did Oz Fest, I mean there was a daily a a meeting in catering for like you know I don't know how many. There was like 2-3 hundred people touring and in, you know, at I don't know. Half of before the meeting. Or lunch service or whatever. They had this a a meeting in there. So it's not a, it's. It's not an uncommon thing for. Let's face it, you know, especially drugs and also of course alcohol have been a problem in our industry's past. And and you know, so it's it's a good thing that that people who needed help have gotten help, people who needed to stop have stopped. You know, like I see that you're enjoying a glass of wine. You know, to me, at my age now, that's pretty much the extent of my drinking and a heavy night.

18:13 I might have 3 glasses of wine, you know, and then it's. Like oh, forget. It I'm going to have a hangover if I even. Touch it and drop. More you know, but it used. To be it doesn't get any 3 bottles of wine. No, no. But it's a good thing. I mean, it's a good thing. I mean, if I didn't get hangovers or headaches or if it didn't bother me in some way, I'd probably drink a whole lot more, you know, because I do enjoy it. But but it's just, I don't know the the the sexiness of of getting, you know, drunk to a point where you pass out, you know, on the floor somewhere where you don't even know where you are. That's just not as attractive as it once was. Not, no, exactly. Yeah. Not necessarily attractive. So I wonder if you know, because you're in that metal scene and do you do any like German bands like I know that metal in Germany is, is a big thing still.

19:04 German metal bands have I worked for German. Metal. Well, the only reason I asked. I'm sure there was. I have a very good friend who who I kind of grew up with in Canada who's a drummer and it was funny. Because. Randy Black. Randy Black. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I know, Randy. Oh, do you? So you have to tell Randy that you were on my podcast, 'cause we go back, you know, literally 40 years, him and I and and you know, so of course like it. I don't know if you know this, but before he played in Annihilator, he played in Canada's most popular Rush tribute band and it was a band called Click.

19:45 And I was very. Good. I was very good friends with all of them, but Randy and I were. We got in some trouble together, let's just say, and I owned at the time a music store and I did business with them and they were a client, but they also became very good friends and the singer and keyboard player Keith I'm very good friends with still today and. Ran a tattoo. Quite often, but yeah, before Annihilator he was in, he was a very technical drummer in a rush. Tribune Band. And then all of a sudden he's in Annihilator playing this, this crazy metal music, and then he goes on with, you know, all these other bands and ends up with. Primal fear. And destruction and. So yeah, yeah, Primal Fear that.

20:27 Exactly. That was the last ones that I know. I think where he played. I met him when he was in an Annihilator because I I toured with that. Must have been early 2000s as well. I toured with Nevermore and they did a European Tour together with Annihilator and I was on that and that's that's where I where I met him. Yeah, and and crazy Jeff Waters and. Yeah. He was an interesting, interesting tour. He's. In He's in Destruction now and still going strong, you know, touring. Constantly. Oh, OK. All the festivals in the summer and stuff, of course, But yeah, so yeah, yeah.

21:11 It's funny, you know, I gotta ask because it to me like there are two really challenging jobs I think in that type of music and one is being the drummer and the other is being the sound engineer, you know, because it like to me, it's just this wall of coming at you and you have to somehow separate all of those sounds and sort of create nuance among mayhem, call it. Yeah, yeah. Well it's not, it's not a wall of noise with all the bands there is good ones and really good ones and not so good ones just like everywhere else as well. And it's definitely more challenging with like when it's just a bunch of noise or or the the musicians come with certain ideas on how it should sound that work in a rehearsal space situation but will never work in a in a club or let alone arena or something like that.

22:26 But I mean I was always pretty lucky. I would say like mostly that the bands that I work with or worked with either were also where very young when I started. So we it wasn't this oh this older guy is trying to tell us what to do. It was always like experimenting on the same kind of you know, level. Yeah, they. Looked at you as a peer. Not as a, not as. Yeah, trying. To straighten them out. And then once I was in the business for like quite some time and started to work for other people or whatever, I already had a lot of experience for my age because I literally started when I was like 1819, basically, like with the whole stagehand situation even earlier than that. So yeah, yeah.

23:27 So were you a musician or something? And then you you just. I wouldn't call it. I wouldn't call myself a musician. Yeah, I I did play guitar in a band, but I wouldn't. You weren't very good. I wouldn't go as far as as saying I'm a musician, no, but. What what What you interested in in working behind the scenes, like in becoming a a stagehand to start and then moving your way up? It was. It was the playing with my band at the time and it was like pretty obvious very quickly to me that you know, obviously you have to have a little bit of knowledge of all this so you can communicate with like locals.

24:10 And even back then, you know, we wanted to have a good result for what we were doing. And then, you know, that's that's how I basically got to know the the people at the local club and then you know, one thing led to another and you know it. It's very typical. Yeah. No, I mean. It's very typical career path. I would, I would think, at least extend it was. Yeah, it was. Now it's getting much more where you actually, you decide really early on that you want to work in the arts and you go to school and you go to some sort of theater technology classes or something. And you're either in lighting or you're in sound or you're in set design or you're in costumes or whatever wardrobe. And so now they're like a lot of the younger people who I have on the podcast have taken a much more planned route into this industry, whereas.

25:10 You know. You and beyond you. It was much more lucky. I think, I think I was one of the last ones or like my generation so to speak is one of the last ones that like got into this somehow because at the time when I started doing this, the schools really didn't exist to do anything of this like this. You know, I mean you could go in Austria, you could you could go to like university and and and you know get this master's degree. But it was all very technical as well. It was less of a just like try and error type.

25:53 Yeah, you were taking like a. Where you could be creative or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Acoustical engineering. Not, not how to be the front of house guy for a metal band, Exact. 101 Well, that wasn't really my plan either. But, you know, that's just how it happened. Yeah. Yeah, I want to ask you about that. Like, you know, because you seem to have become typecast, sort of, you know, like how Jim Carrey can only do funny movies when he does a serious movie. It's ridiculous, you know. Which is a lie, though I think he's very good when he does it, when he does his serious movie well. Maybe I chose a bad example, you know, But when it's somebody who who's only in scary movies or only in funny movies or whatever, it's hard to imagine them.

26:37 Like, do you watch Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm. It's one of my favorite shows ever. Could you imagine him in a serious role? No. Absolutely. Exactly. You know, so I I have a hard time imagining you working with Willie Nelson, you know, so, So to me it's similar, you know, like you become. Known. For a a particular genre or whatever and. I think, I think it's mainly this is mainly down to like your network so to speak. If you don't work for one of the like big rental companies or or whatever, you know it's, it's usually how it goes.

27:18 And then for me it's a little bit special so to speak as well, because I've been within flames for so long and now with I started as just the sound guy, then I turn it turned into the sound guy tour manager thing. Then when it got bigger we got a separate tour manager again, which I really liked, and then for various reasons he got basically out very short before another tour was come, or in between two tours actually. And then that was I think in 2015 and they asked me again if I could do it. So we just don't have a stranger on the bus on the next run. And I was.

28:07 I wasn't really getting into it again because I wasn't really keen on the job. But it worked out really well to everybody's surprise I would say. And then we just kept doing it. But you know, originally I was only gonna, I was gonna stick to just the sound. And if I would have done that, I would have a lot more time to do other things as well. And then I would probably try to get out of the metal a little bit more. But since In Flames basically kept me busy for 25 years now, yeah, there's very few months or weeks where I can actually decide to do something. Yeah, it's not like.

28:54 You can book like. Tours or something and. Really busy, yeah. Which I mean on one hand it's it's super nice because it's a very, you know, family type of environment. Like I I obviously know all their wives and kids and even parents and whatnot, which is really nice. And a lot of the crew within flames is has been around for 10 plus years. So it's like, you know, it's basically. Like a group of friends. Being, being on, being on the bus, which has its is advantages but obviously like all families, there's difficult. Families have families have good and bad parts, for sure. Yeah.

29:42 Families have good and bad parts. No, that's that's really cool. And and you know again I'm not, I'm not saying that it's bad to get stuck in metal or anything like that because obviously you know you've done well, it's done well for you, they've done well with you etcetera. But it's just a, it's an interesting observation. And I would guess again going back to the genre like I would guess that there are some skills or whatever that are required that are different than doing sound for a pop act or. I don't know. I I I I don't really. I just see, I see looking at the console and everything's clipping all the time, like I just see red lights flashing everywhere. That in my mind, right?

30:27 Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's there's definitely people out there that where it looks like that, but it shouldn't look like that. Vocals, vocals, you know, one minute a guy's going La, La La and then it's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But I mean you have that in other in other genres you have just have different challenges but in the end it's all it's all the same to me it is it's like I would, I actually think if you get, if you get hired by somebody who's completely you're not a fan of the music, you have nothing you would not listen to this at home.

31:13 I actually think you get go into this with a completely different mindset so to speak. And it's it's to to me this is more objective than you know, being being a fan of of the band that's on stage. So it's like. Are you a fan of the genre? I used to like I would like before or at the beginning. When I got into it, I I I would listen to that type of not necessarily like in flames, which you know they come out of like a death metal, whatever that was. That was never really my my, my thing. But like metal in general I would listen or back in those days it was like the hardcore days like Biohazard and all the you know, these kind of things.

32:08 I would listen to that. But nowadays I'm actually, I mean, I'm happy if there's no music. And if there is music, it's usually not metal. Yeah, at all, you know, I mean. It's like jazz or something, right? Something nice. And it's it's like it obviously the the like when you grow older I think the you know the taste gets a little bit broader or or whatever. I mean, being being from, being from Austria, being from Salzburg, it's always it has the classical component as well that you can't get around and that you hate as a kid and whatnot. And nowadays I'm actually enjoying orchestra stuff or whatever as well.

32:58 Yeah, so it's. At the same time, for me anyways, I've always had a pretty wide musical taste. I was kind of a metalhead and and you'd walk into my music store and I was listening to Michael Jackson in the 80s. You know the bad. When the bad album came out, because of the production quality of it, I was just blown away. I was blown away by the production and some of the sounds that were coming out of it. And you know, so it wasn't I. I was about to say I I back in in those early days I used to listen to a bunch of pop albums that just for the production. Yeah. Exactly.

33:38 You know, it was the same reason. I liked, I liked a lot of the 80s bands when they came out, you know, like like Def Leppard and and Winger who everyone hated. But I loved because they were just so well produced, you know, and. Absolutely, yeah. Some of those. Producers, a lot of them were just so good. Nowadays, I think is completely like over the top, like sounds are completely, you know, not. You can't reproduce half of it live. It's just it runs through chains and chains of like in plugins and whatnot.

34:19 It's like, why are you doing this? This is not, you know, this is not necessary, yeah. But do metal bands? Do metal bands play to play to tracks? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know very few bands that don't have tracks to be, yeah, at at least not like, you know the the occasional keyboard track or or whatever. It's, yeah, yeah, some use it more than others, but. It's so common now and and you know, I'm always surprised when I find out about it because I'm like really like those guys who I've always liked so much. They're playing to tracks and you know, like you said, sometimes it's just a keyboard track, sometimes it's maybe some background vocals or something.

35:07 But yeah, yeah, But when it's more than that, you know, like when you hear that, you know, on Motley Crue's stadium tour, Nikki Sixx wasn't playing the bass. It was a bass track, you know, and things like that. Yeah, that that's disturbing. You know, that's that's a bit disturbing. Yeah, but that's also not very metal specific. That happens everywhere. Of course not, yeah. And I I actually think it happens in pop way more than it does 100. Percent. Most. Of them don't sing at all, or or you. Know most of the. Instruments aren't even real, you know. Yeah.

35:48 Yeah, yeah, it's it's, it's an interesting thing, but you know, back to the this genre, which I'm obviously intrigued with, 'cause I don't know that much about it. And by the way, like, so you you said as we grow older, we change our taste and stuff. So one of the one of the earliest metal concerts I went to was Judas Priest, probably in like, I don't know, 1980 or something. And and I I'm listening like crazy to the new Judas Priest album right now. It's so good. You know, Rob Halford is 74. Years old. Or something. And his voice is incredible on this album, like he's hitting the notes that he hit when he was in his 20s. It's crazy and but anyways back to the genre. So are there any gear like things that are that are uncommon maybe in other types of music? Like, do you have to use different equipment for this type of music or or is it pretty much all the same? No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say different equipment at all.

36:56 I mean a lot of people nowadays go to you know the digital amp thing like be it KEMPO or XFX or or neural DSP whatever whatever it is that you know that's your preference. And I don't necessarily agree with that trend because it definitely it's not the same yet. You know I don't even, I'm not sure it will even get to the point where it's the same that to a real like to BAM maybe maybe in you know for the next generation but not in not in my lifetime. I don't see that on the horizon anywhere. So I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't think it's, but I mean what we do different or we started doing different than now a lot of people are doing it is that we use isolation caps for guitars and bass which yeah, for a long, like a long, long time. I know that like arena bands or bigger bands have done that for a very long time as well like Metallica. I think we're ones and one of the first ones that that did that.

38:18 But I don't remember really any of the smaller bands or like the bands that that were in flames of size that did that when we started doing it. And it was basically what that is for people who don't understand. Yeah, it's very. It's a very simple concept actually. It's basically just it used to be just a case where you put the guitar speaker in and then you might get in the case, you close the case so you can lower your stage volume and therefore you have more control over the actual guitar tone and the like how loud your stage is.

39:02 And we started using it shortly after the guys decided that they want to use in ears like in ear monitors and then that made the most sense to do that. And the ones that we are using now is like a purpose built that is basically speaker cabinet and case in one unit. It's just it just has like 3 connectors in the back, two for the mic, one for the for the actual speaker and then that's it. It's got one like 12 inch speaker in it and and that's it.

39:43 And I mean that drastically improves the quality especially on on smaller shows for instance because the stage gets so much more quiet that you can actually on front of house, you know actually mix. And on bigger shows it's much better also because like if you listen, I recorded all the shows on on multitrack and if you listen to the guitar that's it. There's only guitar. There's no bleed from the from the drums. There's nothing else. There's no. Are you also? Isolating drums. Though no, but I mean the only the only noise that's on stage literally is the acoustic drum kit and a little bit of side field which also has mainly drums or whatever. There's nothing else that's going on. On stage we have, we still have guitar caps, so you know when they need to do like some feedbacks or whatever, they can do that, but they're obviously on a way lower level than what you would have them.

40:48 If this would be your main source for the mic, yeah, So well, I really think that makes a big, big difference, and a lot of other bands started to adapt that after. Well, well you said something that I think is key which it just gives you more control, you know because if everybody's just you know got everything turned up to 10 and and it's just a a bunch of noise on stage. You know, obviously it makes your job more difficult, especially for the first five or six rows, you know, in front of the stage where. They're. Hearing, they're hearing sound off the stage, not out of your. But it's like for me this is also, it's always been like that.

41:33 I'm a big fan of DB limits. I always was as long as they're implemented in a in a like sensible way. Because like when I started, it was already like Switzerland had them. As long as I can think ever since I've been to Switzerland from. How many times? What's their limit? It's believe it's 90 average over a certain period of time. From the from the toilets. Unless you provide, unless you provide free hearing protection, then you can go to 99 or 100.

42:19 And nowadays, I don't know the exact law, but it seems to be like pretty much like 100 over like 15 minutes or half an hour, which is more than enough. But it's quite low compared to what I'm what I'm used to when I grew up, you know, with the walls of speakers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean that whole technology just completely that changed so much in the last 1520 years, well. Especially because of line array and stuff right? Like it's a much more scientific approach. Because of line array obviously.

42:59 Also it got, it got way more precise even once the line the rays were already there. Now the new thing basically is like beam steering or like cardioid systems that only really throw in One Direction where again you just don't have any spill back on stage. You don't have that much like secondary noise so to speak, and it get just gets everything out. It cleans it up really. Nice. Yeah, Much familiar with that technology. So that so speakers are just very narrow.

43:43 They well they started, they started this in the in the in the with a sub speakers because obviously the lower the frequency gets the more of a circle the dispersion is so to speak. And so cardioid sub arrays were like the first step in that development basically. And then this German company DMB actually released a system that would do the same thing, but not only for the sub frequencies, it does it over basically the whole bandwidth, you know.

44:32 So all this like muddy everything below 3400, whatever. Everything that you know just basically makes it difficult to to or makes it more difficult in in arenas and and and stuff is basically gone or improves drastically. And that combined with a very precise software to to calculate where you need your speakers to hit just makes an overall difference. You know, it's this little, this little pieces. The isolation cabs is just one of them. And then this speaker technology and this and this and this and this.

45:19 It just makes it completely different. Like if you want it to be, and if the artist or the musicians actually want this to be the best it can be. There's a lot you can. There's a lot of technology that you can utilize these days. It hasn't been there like 5-10 years ago. Yeah, it's crazy. It's very, very interesting because like I said earlier, nuance to mayhem or whatever. But it's really, it's adding precision, you know, to mayhem. So you know what? What's being played might be very confusing and noisy and everything else, but then you start to really kind of tighten everything up first of all with isolating sounds on stage.

46:00 But then you know the system itself being able to do even more of that in a much more. Direct approach and I mean it was for for me this was very funny because once we switched to this new PA technology on one tour, it was actually the tour in 2017 with Sarah. This is, this is we had, we had a pre release system out. It wasn't really a beta test, but it was almost finished. But it wasn't released yet. And yes exactly it's called GSL and they actually gave us an arena system. They sent one of their guys out with it to help out with like our systems engineer to like set it up and and and straighten it out.

46:53 And it was basically for them, it was like a field test like we know it's, you know the products ready, but how does it do, what's the the little things that we still need to tweak a little bit, you know being being like how quick you can rig it or like small adjustments in the software that that controls it and stuff like that. And on those first shows I remember that like for me it was like Oh my God, I actually have to clean up my mix. I can hear things now that I couldn't hear systems. It's like it actually in the end more work for me because it was just like, OK, what is this, you know, and I had like doubts in the beginning.

47:46 It's like what this is what you have been doing for the last 15 years, but it also made it better and and you know, make the mix better and it's funny now because obviously you don't have that same exact system everywhere you go. So now, even though they thank God, are quite common nowadays, especially on outdoor festivals and stuff, but you sometimes go back to like a not so advanced system or an older system. And even those mixes are sounding better now because what you're sending out of the console is already way more precise because you can hear it on this, you know, it's crazy.

48:31 It's absolutely great. Like for me this was a very, very interesting process over this tour and like the tours after because I I like realized OK, there's a lot of I can do a lot more work here and in this part and on that part where I would have said a couple of months earlier, no, this, you know this is going to be as good as it gets. There's no there's nothing more to gain here. So it's it's, I like it because it it, it also means that it doesn't make the job boring, boring, so to speak, you know, because you're always, you're always aiming and trying to to find something that to make it a little bit better.

49:15 So you started early enough to where you obviously started on analog consoles. And So what was that transition like for you and when did it happen? I know the exact time when it happened. I refused for a very long time to to change because every single time I had a digital console in my hands before, that was just like, what? What is this? You know, whatever this does not. It feels like a toy. It sounds like a toy.

49:57 This is not what I want. And then we were on gigantour with Megadeth in the US. And Dream Theater, I saw that. No, it wasn't Dream Theater. Oh oh. I didn't know they did more than one Gigantour. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This one was Lamb of God and Megadeth. Exactly. We were on the One with Lamb of God. This is the same 1 Dream Theater was on it. No. Huh. We no, but we didn't tour the we didn't tour with during theater. Huh. Interesting. Maybe they just did whatever or something. Yeah it it it was it was it must have been early ish 2000s as well 2000, five 2006. Something like that in Orlando, at the at the Hard Rock Live in Orlando.

50:46 I'm a big dream theatre fan, you know. Yeah, Prog rock. I don't know. I don't think it was dream theatre. Yeah, I would. I would remember Dream Theatre. Well, I only went for Dream Theatre. Lamb of God. And if it. Was your band And some of the other ones were like, Oh my God, what am I listening to? Really. It was definitely High On Fire, I think. I don't remember. It doesn't it doesn't matter at that time though, the guy who did front of house for Megadeth was a friend of mine and and he actually called me or emailed me before the tour and he basically was like, OK, we have two choices. It's like either I can take Midas heritage for me, which is an analog console and all the supports are going to get like a cheap Yamaha, whatever the Yamaha of the day was back then. Or we can all agree on taking a Digi design D show console and share that between all of us.

51:57 And I'm like, well, you know, if you ask me like that, then I would prefer the Digi design because I know that at least like one of the most decent digital consoles at that time. And then three weeks later or whatever, the tour started and we had like a production day somewhere in the US And that was the first time I I I started mixing on the digital console, like on the tour, I think straight. Into the deep. End and then I mean that was it's it's really funny because we're still using like digit design became Avid and you know Avid had like a bunch of different consoles and now the latest they released the S6 or SXL platform. We switched to that, I don't know five years ago or something like that.

52:56 I don't. Know so you've always stayed with the same. Same brand, yeah. Yeah, because it's like all the integration with all the like we're we're we're using very heavy snapshots for instance, which is a little bit uncommon for like a metal band or whatever, you know. And the integration with Pro Tools and the recording and virtual sound check where you can just play back stuff through the PA, be it for yourself to work on something or if a musician wants to hear something or you know it's all very, very easy. And in the beginning Avid or Digit design.

53:40 Back then we're really the only guys where this was doable. Now you can do it with a lot more consoles, obviously, and also with a lot cheaper consoles, you know, technology here as well. It evolved like crazy basically, you know? But for me this was also this was one of like the key moments. Because like when I was still with analogue gear, I remember I would like write myself cue cards for each song which is basically like an analogue form of of snapshots where you know, I would note down like delay times or in reverb types and and shit like that.

54:25 And like back back then I would, I would MIT song, I would already start thinking about what I need to do between the two songs to make you know to set up for the next one. And it takes away a lot of concentration, obviously. And it's one of those things that you don't really realize. But once you have a tool like this snapshot thing where you can store stuff, you finally realize it's like, oh, actually, you know, now I don't need to think about this anymore. And it frees up my my, my head and my time to actually do what the band is paying me for, which is mix a show.

55:11 So on that tour, like halfway through it was a pretty long tour. It was almost two months I think. And halfway through I started getting into snapshots and stuff and try out this technology. And then I actually immediately started to like it because I saw the potential. It wasn't necessarily there sound wise yet, but now I think it's very, it's very close. Like there's not. Still a warmth. That you get from analog consoles. That's better or whatever. Yeah, yeah, it is. But I mean, I would still take out an analog console if I like. If we would only do arenas and money was no object.

55:55 And it's like, if I could choose, I would maybe try it out. It would always be with like a digital sidecar does all the automation stuff because at this point there's so much automation going on during the show that is also these little little details that would that I would just miss because you you know you can't physically do it on an analog console like unless you have like 3 people pushing buttons or whatever. So this is for me like an overall package thing where I think, OK, the advantages of the digital world definitely outweigh taking an analog console, whereas coming back to guitar amps that's not there yet. Because you know, especially when we do like headline tours or it's not fly shows where it matters, if you take like a Marshall head or a tiny little digital box, it makes no difference to me.

57:00 And then I would always choose the the analog amp, but I mean we just did Australia and Asia for instance where we had to fly almost every second day and we take neural DSP gear there as well because obviously the advantage of being moving around so much outweighs carrying in and and to bamp that possibly gets broken by the airline. So, you know, you have to battle, so to speak, but. So you think you think guitar amplifiers are getting close to a point where nobody will be using tube amplifiers anymore and all the modeling amplifiers and stuff are are going to take over, No.

57:44 I think it's like vinyl it there will be a big, I don't think it will go away completely just like vinyl never did, you know there was always this freaks that somewhere that would that would keep building their record collection. You know, it's funny because I, I, I have a house up in Canada in the mountains and one of my plans for the because I spend the the warm months there from May until September, October or whatever. And one of my plans this year is to buy a turntable and a bunch of vinyl to start collecting back. I got rid of all my vinyl, I don't know, 30 years ago or something, and now I'm going to start collecting it again at like 20 times the price or whatever, right? Probably, yeah.

58:30 Yeah. More than no. I don't think this will go away. Yeah, at all. So aside from like you've had two major shifts in technology I think in audio obviously line array and digital consoles. Have there been, has there been like mic technology or other things power, obviously digital power has has changed some things but. Yeah. Has there been any like revolutionary changes? That that's the two. That's the two major, major, it's pretty big things like digital consoles definitely being like I would say that's even bigger than the line array technology and then yeah, line array probably the the second one, but I mean other than that it's very.

59:25 Well, digital consoles is such a big topic too, because you know Dante and all of the plugins and that whole universe. It's not. Just the the control surface itself. It's all of the other stuff that came with it, right? I mean, yeah. And and that actually I would, if you would separate that a little bit that that that part from the console like the DSP power processing power is maybe the third one because that's obviously not only a thing in, in consoles, but it's also in in like reverb units or even the guitar processing stuff, modeling amps, blah, blah. But that would have not been possible. Without having this ginormous amount of processing power basically in your hand.

1:00:16 I mean you also experienced the birth of of cell phones and and how this looked in the beginning and like basically first laptops and how how laptops look now of course like I was also in the middle of all this when I when I grew up. And this is like you know what used to be a suitcase sized thing is now basically in your in your hand and even even more than that. So it's. Well, they always compare. They always compare, like the iPhone, the power of an iPhone to like the original space shuttle. This has more computing power than the original space. Shuttle right, Which is?

1:01:01 Incredible. You know. So what was I gonna ask you? Oh, so you use D and BI guess pretty much exclusively if you can if. If I can, yeah. You know, so I I had a very, I have a very good relationship with them because that's basically what I grew up on. Of course, like on on on their PA's like from 20 years ago that the club I started to work in here in Salzburg, I just had a DMB install and that's when I had my first contact. So I know a lot of people there and yeah, yeah, it's I always like it to yeah, semi close proximity and it's like they they like me for some reason and they always, I can give feedback on certain things.

1:01:52 That's cool. It's always nice to do things like that. Yeah, I'm old enough. I started in the industry on the lighting side, and I came into lighting right when automated lighting was becoming a thing. And so the whole transition from, you know, fixed park hands and things. So, you know, when I started, most shows were still mostly park hands. Occasionally you had somebody who had some Vera lights, but that was it, right. And then the companies I was working with were creating alternatives to the to the Vera lights. And so I just saw something similar. I remember when I saw my first moving light and I was like, whoa, you know, nobody's ever going to use a fixed position light again.

1:02:41 Why would you, you know, when you can change color, Why would you use a light that just does one thing. I recently, so I'm from Calgary, Canada, and last summer when I was there, my house is just outside of Calgary in the mountains. And when I was there last summer, I was invited to PK Sound to see their system and I didn't really know what I was walking into. Right. And I went into their showroom and they said, you know here's a typical setup for an installation and but let's say there's suddenly a 12 foot wide column right in front of your your, you know your your speakers and you know you're missing sound to a a big part of the venue or whatever. And the rig started moving and I was like what the hell is going on here?

1:03:34 And they showed it to me on the screen. What was happening and the all the science behind it and the and I was just blown away and I remember feeling the same thing like why would anyone want a rig that you can't adjust in the air once you see this technology you know and but I think you know that the challenge to that is obviously that it's kind of like Betamax where everybody knew Betamax was better but because it was only available from Sony in that one device, it didn't make much sense where VHS you could get it anywhere, right. And so that might become a problem where people don't want to change brands just to get that feature.

1:04:15 I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about? Yeah, I I it's funny because like Daryl is on me all the time as well when we were in Canada to come and and see one of their systems. Yeah. So I mean I don't I heard of it and I know that it's like self adjusting so to speak. But I don't know there's a lot of there's nothing that it does that you can't really do with something else either other than like I can't think of a situation where I'm like setting it up in the morning and then all of a sudden I have the I have the urge or the need to to to move it again. So that that that's where I see the issue with with that. And then it's, it's very heavy as far as I know, obviously because there's motors in it and. Stuff into.

1:05:18 The box I mean EAW tried something similar if I remember correctly with the idea a couple of years back and I. I just find it intriguing, you know? Like to me, when I saw it, I was like, wow, you know? It's an interesting idea, yeah, that's for sure. I'm not sure how, how practical it it is. Like in a real world doing 300 shows a year type of situation, yeah. But you know, who knows? It's like. I for me this is always very like I got asked a couple of times like in Frankfurt or whatever on the on the pro light and sound, it's like where do you think a certain technology is going or whatever.

1:06:12 It's like, I don't know. It's like I just use it, you know? Did you go to the show this year? No, no. The pro Latin sound has been dead for a couple of years. Now since it's I think Messa. Right, Yeah. Was it a complete? I don't remember what how that happened. Well, Messa, I just heard hasn't come back, so oh. It It hasn't. Oh, that's true. It hasn't come back at all. It hasn't come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it used to be such a huge show like I used to go to music. Messa and. Pro Light every year. Crazy. And it was just such a massive show. You had to take the bus to get from, you know, the sound pavilion to the lighting pavilion or whatever, right? Hold on one second.

1:07:00 Now it's now it's much smaller. Yeah. So, you know, you you, you gave us back a funny statement when she asked you, you know, just funny stories of being on the road for 25 years with this band and, you know, being their babysitter. And you know, I mean, that's so typical. Rock bands in particular, I think worse than pop artists, Like pop artists I think have sort of there's a list of things that every pop artist is going to do wrong or whatever. But rock bands are looking for trouble. Like rock bands started the whole thing of throwing televisions out hotel windows and flipping cars over. And you know, I remember one time we, we, we took furniture out of all the hotel rooms and we furnished the elevators and and we were like betting on who could furnish the elevator better.

1:07:58 Like there were six elevators or whatever, and we furnished the elevators with plants and televisions and couches and everything. Right. It's just stupid things you do when you're bored, you know? But, you know, you mentioned one story in particular about running around South America with lots of cash. And it's funny because when I was early with Martin Lighting, I remember we had a guy who was relatively new with us. Now he works for Robe Lighting, but he was new with us at the time and he had to go with one of our sales people down to he. He was a guy who did the demos like he controlled the lights and stuff during demos and he had to go to South America to show off some new technology in a few different countries.

1:08:43 And the first country we went, they went to, it was him. And one of our sales people, first country they went to, paid us like 60,000 in cash or something to pay off something on their account. And he was so nervous 'cause he was traveling all over South America with this, this $60,000 in cash in his suitcase and he had to keep checking that box saying I don't have more than 10,000 in cash or whatever. And he was so nervous. So your your statement reminded me of that. Yeah, I mean thank God those those days are basically over. And to me it was always very bizarre anyway because it's like, I mean in South America, OK, that's one thing. But you know like especially in the in the earlier days it was pretty much like a Wild West type of situation and and you knew that.

1:09:40 But even in the US there was so many things that were handled cash where I'm like what do you want me to do with this? This is like what? Just wire it. Yeah. What do you mean? And this is like literally just like 15 years ago where they crazy. It was either cash or it was a check. And I'm like, I'm European. I have never seen a check in my life. You know what I mean? I have a bank account and a card and you can wire to this bank account. This is how it works. Like how are you not, this is very bizarre for me. But on this, this was one of the first like the note that I that I that I wrote.

1:10:23 This was one of the first South American runs I did and it just kept piling on and I had like this little like to me Weekender back basically. And by the end of the of the run it wasn't even that long. It was like 10 days or two weeks or something. It was literally, it was, it was filled to the top with like in U.S. dollars and it was, it was not a comfortable no. And I mean I would definitely, I wouldn't do something like that nowadays. I would just refuse. It's like, yeah, it's not you talk to the agent and you figure it out how we get the money.

1:11:06 I don't. I don't care. You know, but it's funny because until very recently, like I talked to a lot of tour managers and stuff and until very recently settlements were done in cash and. Oh, it's not like they're gone. We just did South America in November, December last year. There was a bunch of them that were like, Oh yeah, we couldn't get to the bank to wire it in times that we're going to pay you the balance in cash. No, you're not. I'm not picking up like in 50 grand or whatever you do, you know, it's like, are you insane? It's like I have three weeks to go. I'm going to like, in Colombia. And you know, I have no intention to carry that amount of money.

1:11:48 No. Well, and I mean the same, by the way, the same person at the venue who did that settlement for 50,000 in cash, he's calling up his brother and saying, hey, they're driving a white van. White van. They're going from here to Bolivia and they're going to cross this road right here, you know, And then your, your car, your car is getting attacked by a bunch of guys jumping out of the jungle or something and and you lose the money, right. So yeah. I mean, it was pretty. It was pretty dumb so to speak to do it back in the day but it was also I mean it was also obviously way different sums we were talking and I just think in general this it changed like back then it was more like you know if you could take if you have worked with certain promoters a couple of times you could take the word for it and and you know it all it was kind of it had this type of quality which which was nice and and nowadays it's either. Super.

1:12:57 Corporate. It's super shady. There's nothing in between anymore. You know I'm I'm, I'm lucky to be on the Super corporate type or side of things where I don't have to worry about these type of situations most of the time. But yeah, the big. The big. Pop the big pop and country tours and stuff. You know, I was, I was. I refer to this article all the time. But I read an article from Rapino from Live Nation and he says that the the reason that tours just keep growing and growing and growing and ticket sales are so crazy and all of this stuff is because of social media followings.

1:13:46 You know, these artists might have 10 million followers on social media. And he said my job's easy. All I got to do is sell tickets to 5% of them and but in in the middle genre I would think that it's not so much like that like or or is it also driven by social media and? I think it got a lot more important maybe later than than in other genres, but by now you can definitely tell that that there is some bands that do really well, partly because of how they deal with their social media and how well they actually play it. You know, there's, I can't think of anybody right now, but there's definitely a few out there that wouldn't be as big as they are if it wouldn't be partly because of social media. But then again, I mean, you know, people are not stupid either.

1:14:49 Audiences are not stupid nowadays. If you don't deliver a certain quality of show, they go once and that's it. And then that doesn't really help anyone either, because sooner or later you're going to run out of people to sell tickets to. Exactly. But it's a very bizarre time. Now post Kovid, so to speak anyway, because there's all this, you know, you hear it everywhere. All the cost of living just exploded. People don't have any money anymore. Everything is so expensive, especially over here in Europe with like electricity and gas and whatnot, with the war in Ukraine and all this bullshit going on.

1:15:34 But on the other hand, like whatever Taylor Swift or Coldplay who who pay like play like 10 shows in the same city, you know, for ticket prices that are like way higher than probably any metal tour ever. And at the same time, like what we've seen or what I've seen with a bunch of bands is merch sales are crazy. After COVID, when we went to certain cities where we would do, I don't know, 5 bucks ahead, it's 10 now and it's like, how is that?

1:16:18 Like I don't get it and. They'll buy. Anything. This doesn't really go together with what you read everywhere that people don't have any money. It's like okay, Obviously they do have money, they just spend it way differently than what they did like three years ago. I was talking recently with someone in the confetti business and they said, like after a show like a Taylor Swift show or something, people are on eBay selling pieces of confetti for like $20 or €20 or whatever, right? For a little tiny bag of pieces of confetti that were blown off in the show the two nights earlier or something, it's it's shocking to me.

1:16:59 It's. Shocking. Yeah, that's crazy. And that's probably even the more short. Sweeping up the stadium floor or whatever. You know, it's probably those people who got smart and said I'm going to sell this shit on eBay and they're filling their pockets and bags with confetti and stuff, right? But more crazy to me than selling it is actually that there's people out there who actually will buy that. That is something that I completely do not understand well. It's like. Remember. People will pay $1,000,000 for like a what was it? A grilled cheese sandwich or whatever? Because it looked like Jesus, I forget the story, but you know, people will pay. There's so much money out there right now that seems to a lot of it is in the hands of really stupid people who will spend any amount of money to buy things.

1:17:44 And you know, like, I'm a big fan of, I'm a big fan of classic cars, classic sports cars, Camaros and you know, all kinds of them. Cutlass and all of the beautiful cars from the 60s and stuff. Corvettes and the pricing now is so insane, you know? It's just. Completely insane. It's it's, I don't know, there's a lot of money out there, you know? Yeah. And I mean it, it has to be it's yeah, yeah, I can't. I can't really. Does most of your. Does most of your work come from touring or or festivals? I know festivals, especially in metal festivals, are huge in Europe.

1:18:26 Still right? But. Yeah, I mean there are huge, there's huge festivals everywhere I would say. I mean the Europeans obviously in invented the the like 3 day type of camping blah blah blah. That to my knowledge at least that doesn't that didn't exist in the in the US before Coachella and it doesn't really exist other than with Coachella either you know. But it's yeah usually like there is always there's always a good amount of of festivals on on every on every cycle.

1:19:12 You usually do like on an album cycle you you might do 2 to 3 summers of festivals. You know the big important ones in the first year when the album came out and then like the secondary ones that you couldn't do because of date clashes or whatever you do the second year and then you you go to the obscure ones so to speak like that are in in the Wilder countries in the third year. So it's it's it's a lot, but it's also very compressed in in time so. Yeah, but I remember somebody recently in the Netherlands was telling me, you know, touring's not so big in the Netherlands and I said, oh, that's too bad, so you don't get to see no much live music. And he said no, there are.

1:20:01 I forget the number. I think it was 1500 festivals. In the Netherlands oh that's yeah I'm. Yeah, yeah, I'm. Just like what, you know, it's a small country of what, 5 million people or something. I don't. Even remember. But. Yeah, 1500 festivals, Netherlands and Belgium. Is is is special because it's very they pump a lot of government money into the entertainment industry. And so I mean the best, one of the best European festivals in my opinion for the metal genre is definitely Cusp up in Belgium because everything is just perfect. The whole infrastructure with the way that backstage is set up, it's even if the weather is not good, you're not in the mud. It's not you know you have like proper facilities with like showers and bathrooms and it's it's all really, really nice and really well done and that's very unique to to like Belgium and Netherlands, like all the smaller, there's a lot of smallish clubs in in the Netherlands that like between 1000 to like 15103 thousand people or whatever. And they're all like purpose

1:21:33 built venues, you know with with the little details that are important, a lot of dressing rooms, you know a big enough freight elevator or whatever. Most of the time what they do is they build buildings where they have like 3 capacity sizes in the same building. So you know you can, you can be a band that's on the verge and you get booked into 500 capacity and all this, Oh no we didn't. Let's move it and make. It to the big room. Stuff like that. But it all, it all makes a lot of sense and you can tell that there's a that there's a lot of government money spent because obviously some people in the government value that this is that this is actually important to people and I mean they're making arts off of it and life, entertainment, whatever genre it might be, is important to the people.

1:22:33 You know it's important for mental health as we have seen a couple of years ago that it's not good if everything just stops. So you know, it's like I I don't it's to me, it's very bizarre that that this is so spotty, so to speak. Where, where why why is there not more money spent on on all this could be all a much nicer experience for everyone, you know, for the people working the industry, for the people who go to the shows. It's it's not rocket science, you know. And it's obviously still big business, like there's good money to be made, of course. So.

1:23:13 It's. When did you get back to work after COVID? Speaking of COVID. We did our first tour in 2022. OK. March, February, February 22. You had pretty much two full years off then. I had almost exactly 2 years off our. It was for us. It was very bizarre because we were going to do Australia and Asia and then quite late, late in the game, they booked two shows in Russia right before that.

1:23:59 So our last show before COVID hit was Saint Petersburg and then we flew to Auckland in New Zealand just to basically meet at the lobby of the hotel and then turn around, get get back on the get back in the well. We slept one night and then we flew back home the next day. Long flight to do an overnight which you. Know Stay Which Which was bizarre. And then I remember I got back home on the like I flew, I arrived in Auckland on the on the on the Friday or Saturday morning.

1:24:43 I flew back home on on Sunday and I arrived at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning in Vienna on the first day of our first lockdown and it was just bizarre. When I got out of the plane, there was like 3 people at the airport and then I took a there's like a 2 1/2 hour train ride from Vienna to Salzburg again, I think I was the only one on the train. Oh. My. God. And it was just, it was like some somebody wiped out the, the, the, all the people it. Was like a bad sci-fi movie. It was crazy, absolutely crazy, you know, And I mean now obviously it's especially crazy with thinking that like playing shows in Russia is, you know, this is, I mean it's not going to happen again in my lifetime.

1:25:32 I don't know. I'm 100. No, I'm 100% sure that we're not going to go back to. Yeah, this is not happening. This is going to take way, way too long to to re establish if it's even going to happen. I mean, we'll see what? I don't know you. Know what happens with the Orange one in September and then how that plays out in terms of Ukraine and Russia and maybe we have bigger issues come January anyway. But yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't see any any real touring going back there anytime anytime soon.

1:26:15 No, it's. Interesting, because I think as as a world, we have a short memory. And you know, like remember all the changes that we were going to make during COVID, oh, we'll never do this again. And we're going to do it like this in the future. And now we're going to change all of these things and it's going to be much safer and much better and we're going to treat our people better and blah, blah blah, yeah. Bullshit. Yeah, well. That's it. Yeah. You know, here we are a few years later, and we're worse than we were in 2019 in most. Ways. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I I agree. It's crazy. Yeah, Sarah put a question in here That said, are there any frameworks, methods, or processes that you found to be especially useful in your work that others may find useful too? And you gave us an answer, but do you remember what you answered?

1:27:08 I think it was the thing that what originally drew me to, yeah, the audio side of things, which which is the the fact that you can basically try anything. There is obviously certain physical rules that apply, you know, just like with a lot of a lot of other or most other jobs as well. But I mean one thing specifically would be that if you have two mics on the snare drum that you always have to turn the bottom one in phase. So it's as a whole, it's in phase again. And that's one of the that's the rule. You have to do it.

1:27:58 No, you don't. You know, you don't have to do it because yes, it makes sense and on paper and you know, if you calculate it, it's probably right that you have to do it, but you might actually get the result that you are looking for with not doing it as an as an example. It's like what I like about it is doing, doing doing stuff differently just to try it, not for the sake of it, but you know try it out. There's nothing. It's not going to hurt anyone. It's not going to destroy anything. But where are you getting with with this when you try things out? And I think that's a very interesting thing to do in general. Like I I still do this to this day after more than 20 years. Just, you know, wipe out all my EQ's for instance on on a show file and like redo it or do it with a different plug in or do it completely.

1:29:02 That's interesting. You know, try out things that I've never tried before and with some things it's definitely, you know, don't never change your running system like you shouldn't. This has been tried and tested for 30 years. Let's keep it like this because it's fine. But on other things it's like, God, this is crazy. This is actually awesome. How how good that works and different artists or different genres require different solutions And so it's like it's it's one way of like keeping myself on my toes so to speak, a little bit to keep like learning more or new things.

1:29:50 You know, sometimes I'm I'm like, OK, I try something it doesn't work for what I'm trying to do. And then years later I'm doing something completely else. And I remember, oh, I tried this once and I do it in this different application and it's like, oh, this is great and this is this is what it what it should be in in in my opinion. Or this means why I like my job as much as? I do. I like, I like that concept because I think you have to challenge, you know, the norm or challenge the rules or break the rules. You have to break things in order to figure out how to make them better sometimes, right? And absolutely I. Always use. I always use racing examples because my son is a racing driver, but he grew up in go karts and when he first started karting and he was frustrated that he wasn't getting faster and stuff.

1:30:39 One of the things we did is I would pay him 5-5 dollars every time he went off at a corner and hit the barrier. I would pay him to hit the barrier, and the reason I was doing this was because he was forcing himself to carry more speed through those corners. And when he when he found the limit, he you'd have to go over the limit to find the limit, right? So he'd go over the limit, hit the barrier, and now he knew I just got to lift a tiny bit sooner, or I got a break a bit sooner, a bit harder or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he was learning highly valuable lessons that were making him a much better driver. It was only costing me $5 and and and he didn't get hurt, you know, the barriers were soft and it wasn't going to hurt him or anything.

1:31:29 And it got over the fear of going off track too, you know, because every other driver was lifting really early, breaking really hard, etcetera. So anyways, tell me about Speaking of Russia. There's something here about naked musicians in in trains, which sounds like a good name for a metal song. Naked Musicians in Russian trains, you know. Yeah, yeah. What's that? Yeah, that's that's also a long time ago we used to take, we used to take the night train from Saint Petersburg to Moscow or the other way. So it would basically be do a show in the one city, pack up, go to the train station, get on the train at like 1:00 in the morning and then sleep on the train.

1:32:19 It's such an arrive in the, in the, in the other it was it was awesome. I'm joking. I mean now, now it's fine because they have this high speed train now between the two cities, which is only like 3 hours or something which is a little bit more comfortable. But there was nothing wrong with it and it was always like, you know, it was always a party basically. And that's how it is the naked musicians came to, basically. Because no, it's like Scandinavian people for some reason get naked in the most bizarre. Because they're drunk. Yeah, but not sometimes they're sober as well. They just don't.

1:33:01 This was like something new to me as well in the in the very beginning, starting with these guys and and also with other Scandinavian bands. It's like they they just don't. I don't know, They feel the urge sometimes to do it. I don't know, maybe it's the Finnish sauna mentality or? Russia. Russia to me seems like the wrong place to do this though, you know. That's where the alcohol comes in. Yeah, this just seems. Like the wrong place to do it like something? Happened. Russian is going to come and say net. If that happened also, it was a very big Russian lady that came from the, from the, what do you call it like the restaurant cart basically came back to our thing.

1:33:51 It was like don't do that again because somebody dared him to run like basically all the way through the train and come back. It was as. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't only our it wasn't only our car it was Oh my God all the way through. And he made it and nothing happened. So it's it's it's fine. The same same guy was chased by Japanese hotel security in Tokyo through the hallways and stuff. It's, yeah. You were you weren't married at the time, right? No. Because I just wonder if that's a story that you call your wife and say, Oh yeah, Did anything happen today, honey? Well, yeah, we kind of got in trouble for running naked through the train, you know?

1:34:40 But. Yeah. Oh yeah, it would. I would definitely tell her those stories. Really. It's one of. Yeah, it's. Is she from the industry? Nothing. No, nothing really ever happened that had, like, bad consequences. And there was some really stupid things done back in the day. And even now. I mean, I had musicians arrested for various reasons and it was always like, OK, slap on the wrist. It's I think as long as you're not a complete idiot, the time when you face like an authority, yeah, then you're you're usually good. Yeah, yeah, it's.

1:35:30 Like, you know that's hilarious. And then if not, you just go to jail for a night and. Yeah, so I know you. I know you've been drinking wine during this recording and it's morning for me, so I'm jealous. But. And you've mentioned that you love champagne. Yes, yeah, that was actually champagne as well. Oh, was it? Just yeah, yeah. Day drinking champagne. I like it, Yes. But you're also a big coffee guy. Yes. Is that is that because of, like, the drug in coffee that keeps you awake and makes you buzzed? Or is it the flavor and stuff, Which is why I? Like it? No. Yeah, it's. I mean, Austria having a very vast coffee house tradition.

1:36:16 That's definitely one thing. Yeah, I didn't know that. And then and then, oh, Vienna is like full of it. And it's the the oldest, the oldest coffee cafes in the world, really, you know, together. But I've never been to. I've never been to Austria. I've been to many places, but I've never been to Austria. I want to. I always wanted. To go, because I grew up in Canada skiing, you know, and I always wanted to go to Austria skiing even, you know, but I just never got there. Yeah, no, I mean that's definitely a big part of it. And then obviously being very close to Italy and and spending lots and lots of childhood family vacations in Italy that's that's another I think and it's like I'm not a I'm not a nerdy coffee drinker like you know searching for the and I need to try this new bean and that new bean or whatever like I bought myself espresso machine right at the beginning of the of when COVID hit because obviously they closed all the cafes and I was like OK I can't I need to have something at home And it was from the beginning that I that I was just in search of the let's call it the perfect espresso like what the you know the the the port or shipyard worker in in in Napoli what they drink as coffee the €1.00 at the bar in

1:37:52 the morning one zip and and that's it and that's what I basically have. I have like 2-3 different beans that I change up every now and then, but that's it I may. Well, here's, here's what we're gonna do. Sarah's gonna reach out and get your address and we're gonna send you. We have a relationship with a local coffee maker here. So it's a guy. It's a guy from our industry who took on a passion for coffee and at some point he bought a small roaster and put it in his garage. And he really learned. And he flew around all over the world figuring out learning the best beans and things. And it became such a passion that eventually people started saying, Jamie, your coffee is amazing, can you make me a bag of it?

1:38:40 Can you make me? So he was giving it away to all his friends and then they were saying, well my buddy wants one, can I buy one? And so Long story short it became a a business called coffee cult with KS like German and and so. I think I've seen this before. So we created. So I started drinking it just as a customer and I I love dark coffee. So I I make like a regular American cup of coffee from a nice espresso machine that that is a Delonghi automatic machine. Very easy to use and really nice. And so I drink regular coffee and espresso, but I usually drink like an American tall coffee, you know?

1:39:20 And so I would drink the dark one. And my girlfriend was like, oh, it's too strong for me. And so I started mixing their medium roast and this particular dark roast, which was called Rd. Dog and because he's from our industry and so it was perfect. And so one time I told him I mixed these and he goes, well, we should make you a custom blend and we'll. Just them together in one bag. Yeah, that's awesome. So we did that and we called it geezers grind and so now it's branded. Fantastic. So the cool thing is all of the proceeds from that coffee go to our industry for people who got injured or don't have a health insurance or have a problem or mental health, whatever it is, but it goes to a charity to support our industry. And so anyways, Long story short, it's a really good coffee and we'll have Sarah get your address and we'll we'll figure out a way to ship a a bag of it over to Austria. Excellent.

1:40:21 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, of course So. And I I share your your passion for coffee, but I'm not, you know, I'm Canadian. Our coffee is terrible. In Canada, we have this place called Tim Horton's. Tim. Yeah, Tim, Tim Horton's. I don't know if you know, but he, he was a very good hockey player and I know I didn't. Yeah. He started this chain of coffee shops. He just died a few years ago, I think, actually. But. But their coffee is terrible, you know, And compared to what you drink and what I drink now, yeah. So yeah. I mean nowadays I have to say it's a lot easier to to get good and decent coffee. You know the guy. In the beginning in in especially in the US, it was it was difficult. There was, there was nothing.

1:41:08 And then all of a sudden, OK, Starbucks, which at least it's like, OK, at least it's consistent. It's not great, but it's it's not. At least it's not like truck stop coffee. Yeah, you know, but nowadays, but. It's $7.00 which pisses me off, You know, like a. Cup of coffee. Is 7 bucks. It's so stupid. That's one, yeah. That's and like you said in in Italy, you know you go to a little cafe and it's €1.00 and it's 10 times better. Yeah, yeah. But we actually have with Within in Flames crew, we have this unofficial coffee club. It's the lighting guy, the one of the guitar techs and me who basically we try to like every day on a, on a, on a show day, we try to go out and like, you know.

1:42:04 Coffee. Find a good a good espresso within the vicinity of of the you. Know it's so funny because 30 years ago you would have been looking for a strip club. Now you're looking for a cup of coffee. It's so funny. Yeah, how things have changed, right? Yeah. Thomas, I appreciate you taking the time today to do this with us and it's been a pleasure getting to know you. And like I said, we'll get you, we'll get you a bag of coffee somehow. And and as much as I'm not a massive fan of the music, if I see you popping around Florida at any point, I'll make a point of reaching out and coming to see you.

1:42:45 Absolutely. Please do. All right my friend. Thanks so much and have a great one. Thank you. You too. Yeah.