#222 - Jim Digby and The Event Safety Alliance

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Hello and thank you for joining
me today on Geese of Gear

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Episode #222.
And of course, today is a very

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special day, my favorite day for
reading promos.

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It's Elation Day.
And so today's podcast is

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brought to you by Elation.
Elation is excited to offer the

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new Proteus Hybrid Max, the
highly anticipated successor to

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the company's pioneering Proteus
Hybrid, the moving head that

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arguably started the revolution
of IP rated lighting faster,

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brighter and with a tougher IP66
rating.

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The Proteus Hybrid Maxx has
already been featured on some

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premier events like the New
Year's Eve Light show on

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Seattle's Space Needle and
Enchanted Forest of Lights at

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Desanso Gardens in Southern
California, and I'm sure I said

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that wrong.
Desanso Desanso Gardens in

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Southern California.
Eric, I expect to hear from you

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very quickly on this one.
Please check out the Proteus

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Hybrid Max and all elation
fixtures at elationlighting.com

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and today's podcast is also
brought to you by Main Light.

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Main Light is the partner you
trust with the gear you want.

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It's a dry hire rental company
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with expertise and efficiency.
The

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Welcome back to episode #222.
And yes, so of course I botched

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the promos as I always do, and
at the end of the day I am

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probably not a radio advertising
guy, but I love our sponsors

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nonetheless.
So again, thanks to today's

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sponsors, Elation and Main
Light, who we appreciate very

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much.
And I think we've mentioned

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recently that we have a couple
of new sponsors coming on.

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We actually have 4 new sponsors.
We've filled some spots in our

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sponsorship openings and the
last two were amazing because

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they came to us.
We didn't reach out to them at

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all and we're getting out there,
I guess.

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So thank you to all of our
sponsors and again especially to

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Main Light and Elation today
sponsors.

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Today's guest is really somebody
that I've been wanting to have

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on the podcast for a long time.
Don't know why it took us this

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long to do, but today's guest is
Jim Digby and everyone knows the

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name.
Jim has had nearly four nearly 4

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decade journey in production and
project management roles within

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live events and music touring.
And he has been working

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alongside artists including
Lincoln Park, Hootie and the

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Boat, Blowfish, Backstreet Boys,
Bolshoi Ballet, Phil Collins and

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most recently, helping to lead
the delivery of entertainment

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mega projects including Saudi
Arabia.

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First ever international music
Festival in the Kingdom in 2018.

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It's pretty exciting now.
They're doing all kinds of

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festivals there.
And so he did.

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The first one, Jim was on the
stage in 1992 when James

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Hetfield was seriously injured
by a flame special effect and

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55,000 people rioted.
He was a stage manager at

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Woodstock 99 when 200,000 people
rioted.

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He was with Marilyn Manson in
the aftermath of the Columbine

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shooting when riots ensued and
has stared down myriad tenuous

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circumstances.
Jim then became the Co founder

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and president of the Event
Safety Alliance, a board member

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behind in the behind the scenes
charity keynote speaker,

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presenter in matters related to
event safety and events,

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production, career path and
mental Wellness in live events.

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Jim tirelessly and passionately
advocates for the health and

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sustainability of our industry
at large.

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Jim is an amazing leader and
really is leading the charge

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towards safety with live events
and we appreciate them coming

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on.
Yeah.

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Hello, Tim.
How are you?

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Hi, Marcel.
I'm good, thanks.

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How are you?
Fan flip?

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Fantastic.
We were just having an off air

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conversation about the
incredible Stanley Cup, which

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which Jim has done massive
research on and tore out of the

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bleeding hands of his young
daughter.

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Because there's lead poisoning
in Stanley Cups.

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We're announcing it live here.
Oh God, don't put me in that

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space.
I am not saying that.

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My God, I'm going to get sued.
No, I there are some reports

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that the plug.
Well, good.

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I'm not neither confirming nor
denying that information.

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Yeah, yeah.
You said there was reports of a

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a plug that could possibly,
maybe might let lead into the

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water.
Maybe might, yeah.

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Or into the fingers if the plug
comes out or something like.

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That I mean it's, it's.
On the Internet.

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And you know you have to believe
everything you read on the

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Internet, don't you?
It just blows me away how crazy

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popular that thing has.
I mean, it's literally, it's a

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water cup that people are
fighting over and you know, it's

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insane how something so simple
can go so viral.

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It it is a mark of today's
society, isn't it?

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I mean that the explosive
consumerism that we live in, you

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know it it if it worked like
that for all the artists we have

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an opportunity to work with,
it'd be fantastic, right?

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We did plenty of work.
Yeah, well maybe they just need

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to put their picture on a Yeti
or on a Stanley Cup like like

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Taylor Swift.
Look, she got famous cause of

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it, so yeah, I mean.
It's drinking out of my Yeti.

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I've got Yeti coffee and I've
got Yeti water.

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I just.
I have a Yeti coffee cup but it

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doesn't fit.
I have a BMW and it doesn't fit

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in the cup holder in my BMW
because I don't know why, but so

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I don't.
I don't use.

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It doing the ones hot ones cold
comparison right now with these

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two things.
That's beautiful.

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We're not.
We're not.

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Connected to each other.
We're not into consumerism at

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all with three Yeti Cups between
the two of us right now.

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So, yeah, well, I appreciate you
taking time this morning.

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You're in Philadelphia, I think.
I am in the bucolic countryside

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of of Pennsylvania, about an
hour West of Philly, and just

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shy of the amazing Rock Lititz
campus where, as you know, Tate

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and Claire and yeah, of course
all those wonderful companies

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reside.
That's cool.

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So you have an office near Rock
Lititz in Rock Lititz?

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I have an office in my basement
because that's where I've been

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relegated to.
In the house.

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Yeah, yeah.
You go out of our driveway and

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go West.
We're we're in Amish country.

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If you go E, you're heading back
towards the city.

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Interesting fun.
So it's cold there.

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It's cold in my basement.
Yeah, I'd be relegated to the

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basement too.
But in Florida, we don't have

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basements, so I'm fortunate that
I get to stay upstairs.

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Yeah.
They'd be full of water if you

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had them.
Yeah, I think I've only actually

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ever met you on Zoom calls.
And I think when I met you was

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during the pandemic and it was
on sort of an industry

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figureheads, you know, thinkers
kind of thing, where we were

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talking about, you know, safely
doing events when nobody allowed

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any events.
And I I don't even recall who

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was on it.
But that's where I met you.

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And you may not remember because
I'm pretty forgettable.

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But well, it it could have been
that it could have been

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something to do with we make
events.

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It could have been.
I don't know what it was, but I

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remember meeting you on Zoom
Calls and had a few of them and

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thought I got to get that guy on
the podcast and here we are

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finally.
I do.

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I do recall Marcel and you know,
it was one of the coolest things

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about, I mean, look, no denying
how awful the pandemic was for

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so many.
But one of the interesting

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things that we discovered during
the pandemic is a lot of people

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want to help and a lot of people
care about the wider industry

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more so than the gig.
And what's funny is, you know,

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all the gigs taken away and all
the other work taken away.

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While catastrophic for many,
there was this culture of

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helpers that came up and created
new organizations and and tried

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to March new ideas forward and
tried to make sure that we would

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go back after the pandemic was
over to a better workplace.

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Sadly that didn't happen.
But you know, it was cool to see

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so many people in our industry
want to be transform into

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helpers.
Yeah, no, it's totally true.

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And I was.
I was one of them and I felt

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like I was called upon to to
help because I had a big mouth

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or something.
But you know, we did these

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weekly zoom calls.
I think you might have been on a

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couple of those too, that like
we did a Wednesday happy hour

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thing and it would it'd be 40
people one week, 100 people the

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next week, 20 people the next
week.

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And a lot of really cool things
and relationships came from

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that.
Like there's AI.

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Don't know if you know Patrick
Whalen or Patrick Dearson, but

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those two met basically on my
Zoom and they are working

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together on tons of shows since
that time, constantly working

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together on shows, they hire
each other or whatever and

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things like that happened on the
Zoom call, the we make, we make

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events things happened on one of
our happy hour calls and you

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know, just working sort of arm
in arm with with Strickland on

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so many things.
And you know, I I too thought

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that there were some great
things that came out of it all.

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And it's funny that you
mentioned, you know, making sure

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that we'd be better coming out
of it and you know, you kind of

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chuckled at that.
Where do you think we missed on

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that?
Coming out of coming out of the

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pandemic, a better industry?
Well, I'm not in the least bit

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questioning people's desire to
make change.

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That's not the reference to the
comment.

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I think that in my view when we
came back full of the desire to

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to implement those changes that
we spent a lot of time talking

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about and considering and trying
to develop.

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We also came back after two
years of dormancy and no income

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or you know, different kind of
income and and the need to

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reacquire the things that drive
us prior to the pandemic.

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So you know the the fulfillment
that the work gives us prior to

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the pandemic and the the income
that the work gives us.

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You know, there was this
conflicting, competing kind of

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need or desire.
There's the desire to do it

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differently.
And then there's the desire to

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get the heck back into the world
we came from and and get

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working.
And those two things are in some

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ways directly opposite of each
other.

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Yeah, in conflict.
I mean, it's so well said

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because I think like you said,
everyone had the very best

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intentions and then all of a
sudden it went batshit nuts.

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And you know everyone sort of
rallied and did what they did

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best and you know produced the
biggest shows the fastest they

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could and made money and did all
of those things.

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And you start to get further and
further and further away from

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that thought that we're going to
be angels coming out of all of

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this, right?
And we're going to do things so

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much better.
And I'm going to be healthier

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and I'm going to eat better.
And you know, I I know so many

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people who have put on more
weight since the pandemic than

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during the pandemic.
And you know, that's just human

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nature, I guess.
A lot of that stuff.

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I think but, but I do think or
at least again I'll I'll

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reference only the things that
I'm witnessing.

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I'm not speaking for the
industry by any means, but I do

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think some of the things have
stuck.

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Certainly the the idea that
management's certainly the idea

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that the high level Commission
jobs are going to care about the

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00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,280
teams and and go out of their
way to make sure the teams are

228
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,640
looked after doesn't feel like
that stuck so much.

229
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,280
But the teams recognizing those
of us from the trenches,

230
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,000
recognizing that there's a
different way to to balance what

231
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,160
the work means in your life.
Again, speaking only for myself,

232
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,680
like I've been married for
almost 20 years going into the

233
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,880
pandemic and I discovered six
months in and so did my wife.

234
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,800
Oh, you're still here.
Like we had never really been

235
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,400
married because I was never home
for more than two months at the

236
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time.
I was never really a dad because

237
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,120
I was never home for two months
at the time.

238
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So the prioritization of the
things that matter most to me,

239
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,680
and that's not to say that my
family didn't matter most prior,

240
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,320
but the way that I reflect that
to my family changed quite a

241
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,040
bit.
Like now I'm booking work

242
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,480
related to or balanced with or
gauged by my ability to maintain

243
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,280
being a a, a a good dad and
hopefully a good husband.

244
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,120
Whereas in the past I'm taking
to work and I'm just going and

245
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,680
then I'll you know I'll keep
I'll keep things up as I go.

246
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:38,280
So I think that some of that at
least for me has stuck as has a

247
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:45,160
different kind of humanness like
man we all went through that

248
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,560
together and it didn't matter
what rank you were in the in the

249
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,360
workforce you were suffering
period top to bottom.

250
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,040
So it was a great kind of, and
I'm sure other people have said

251
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,640
it was a great equalizer in that
way.

252
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:04,480
And I think I had an ability to
test being a better human at the

253
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,600
beginning of last year on a tour
that was a short run that I had

254
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,520
been asked to just come in and
cover for.

255
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,680
And it, you know, the things
that I brought to it, these new

256
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,080
discoveries that I brought to
that tour about, hey, just be on

257
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,200
the floor, be present, connect,
push a case, get in the truck,

258
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,920
let everybody know you value
them first thing in the morning

259
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,880
and and lasting at night.
And it really worked.

260
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,760
It it it brought the tenor of
the project to a place that was

261
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,280
that felt good.
And I don't think that I would

262
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,320
have had that mindset were it
not for COVID.

263
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,560
Yeah, I mean that's that's all
amazing.

264
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,680
I mean the the reconnection with
the family and I know so many

265
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:50,400
people who have changed their
work habits to better fit their,

266
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,720
you know, their home situation,
their lifestyle.

267
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,640
They they learned, hey, I really
like being around my family.

268
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,560
This is kind of cool.
And so they changed a lot of

269
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,400
things that hurt our business a
bit because you know, a lot of

270
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,160
people just said I'm not touring
anymore, that's it, I'm done.

271
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,680
And so that's that's been
challenging.

272
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,240
But you know, at the same time,
I think that they're not

273
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,200
everyone came out of COVID.
Well, I want to recognize, yeah,

274
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,960
I wanted to recognize that, you
know, it's like we're speaking

275
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,680
about a perspective that's, you
know, mine and and perhaps I

276
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,160
share that with some.
But for others it was the exact

277
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,960
opposite of that.
It it really caused catastrophic

278
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,400
pain and you know, it did not
have positives and I and I don't

279
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,960
want to make small of that.
That's a big deal that people

280
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,160
went through kind of pain and
yeah maybe some didn't come

281
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,360
through the other side and and
while I can reflect positively

282
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,000
on it, I have not lost sight
that friends and colleagues.

283
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,520
Cannot.
Oh, 100%, yeah, 100%.

284
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,480
Yeah.
Well, and I know you know you've

285
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,960
done a lot about it.
I people's mental health has

286
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,560
become so important to me.
And I ask people all the time,

287
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:04,640
are you OK?
Can I help you?

288
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,360
You know do you need someone to
talk to you?

289
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,080
Like I'll see someone I don't
even know making a post on

290
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,520
Facebook.
There's there's a particular

291
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,960
video guy who has has really
bothered me a couple of times

292
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,560
since COVID once, where he
basically just announced that he

293
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,600
was offing himself and on
Facebook.

294
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,680
And then all of his friends just
started saying, does anyone know

295
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,760
where he is?
Can anyone get to him, you know,

296
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,040
find him, blah blah blah blah.
And there was dead silence for,

297
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,680
I don't know, 12 hours or
something.

298
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,360
And I woke up probably at 4:00
in the morning and turned on my

299
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,480
phone to go see, you know, what
was going on.

300
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,280
Like, did he survive?
And he had put up a post saying,

301
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,320
you know, thanks to everyone who
tried to reach out to me, I I

302
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,560
found a way to pull myself out
of it.

303
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,960
And and I'm still here.
And then just recently again,

304
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,600
he, he had a series of posts
where, you know, he said I'm not

305
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,480
worthy.
You know, no one loves me.

306
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,840
I I'm useless to the world.
I'm, I'm a problem to the world.

307
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,080
I'm living in my car in
Minnesota.

308
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,720
There's a snowstorm.
I'm freezing to death.

309
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,760
I have to keep my car running
cuz otherwise I'll literally

310
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,720
die.
You know, I have nowhere to

311
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,480
live.
And I was like, man, you know, I

312
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,240
want to help this guy and I
don't even know him.

313
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,840
Like I want to send him money.
I want to.

314
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280
I'm calling a couple friends in
Minnesota saying, hey, I need

315
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,080
your couch.
You know, I got a guy that needs

316
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,880
a place to live until he can get
on his feet here, and I

317
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,920
literally don't even know him.
I couldn't pick him out in a

318
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,680
crowd.
I have no idea just what I've

319
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,200
seen on on Facebook.
And then again the next day he

320
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,200
posted something saying somebody
reached out, got me a place to

321
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,880
live.
I'm OK for now you know.

322
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:48,000
Thank you so much world.
And so like I said, you've done

323
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,960
something about this stuff.
I haven't.

324
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,120
I I talk about it.
I bring people on to talk with

325
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:58,280
them about it.
I try to help that way I guess.

326
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,560
But you know I wish I could do
more as well.

327
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,800
So yeah.
Yeah I I'm I'm cautious about

328
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,000
receiving.
Thank you for your for sharing

329
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,240
that story and that's awful and
it's a cycle that's hard to

330
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,000
break.
And you know we all we all wish

331
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,920
that our colleagues whether we
know them or not find the help

332
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,800
that they need and want to want
to help propel them towards that

333
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,320
help when we can.
I I I I do but you know I'm

334
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,480
cautious about saying I've done
something about that.

335
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,240
I think in my experience with
the Event Safety Alliance and

336
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,840
prior to the Event Safety
Alliance where you know people

337
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,320
foolishly gave me a mic and
pushed me up on stage and said

338
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,920
talk about our industry.
And now, you know, I think what

339
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:52,200
I bring to the table in these in
the helper mindset is a genuine

340
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,280
connection that I think I have
to the people that work in our

341
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,160
business, a desire to have a
genuine connection with the

342
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,840
people who work in our business
and an ability to speak about

343
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,920
those things.
And I'm a sponge for

344
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,320
understanding who's doing what,
where's the help, who are the

345
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,960
helpers and trying to be kind of
a a spokesperson for all that

346
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,280
good work that's going on.
I'm not a clinician.

347
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,360
I'm not a safety professional.
You know, I'm a production guy

348
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,400
and I love that I'm a production
guy, but I recognize and love

349
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,040
our industry so much that some
of our shortcomings need to be

350
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,720
matured through.
We need to get better at certain

351
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,800
things.
And there are wonderful

352
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,400
organizations out there doing
wonderful things that make

353
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,280
provide greater access to the
kind of help that we we don't

354
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,320
get because of our freelance
lifestyle.

355
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,440
You know, we don't have a a a
medical plan that allows us to

356
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,960
go visit with mental health
professionals and you know,

357
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,040
they're the ones to be applauded
because they're the ones who are

358
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,000
actually doing the hard work.
I'm I'm just lucky enough to

359
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,480
some people put a mic in front
of me and let me talk about it.

360
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,080
Yeah, but I mean that's you know
in our industry it's sort of the

361
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,320
little dark secret that's that's
kept Outback until people talk

362
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,040
about it like we are right now.
And and you know, I know you get

363
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:19,720
involved with behind the scenes.
And as a side note, my podcast

364
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,600
Geezers of Gear, we have our own
special coffee blend which is

365
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,800
called Geezers Grind, which is
made by a small, very boutique

366
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,560
coffee company down here in
South Florida called Coffee

367
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,600
Cult.
And so we direct our listeners.

368
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,400
And by the way, I started as a
customer first, so I drink their

369
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,120
coffee and I went to the owner,
who's a former live events guy,

370
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,680
a touring guy.
And I went to him and I said,

371
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,200
Jamie, you know what?
Like, I love your.

372
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,760
They've got a really dark roast
called Rd.

373
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,560
Dog.
And then they have a medium.

374
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,560
I said I love the road dog.
It's a little tough for me and

375
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,840
my girlfriend just won't drink
it.

376
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,720
It's too strong for her.
So what I've been doing is

377
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,920
buying your Rd. dog and buying
your medium and mixing them and

378
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,480
it's perfect.
And, and, and he said, well, why

379
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,600
don't we just create a custom
blend for you?

380
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,040
And I said you would do that.
And he said, yeah.

381
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,440
And I said, well, here's what I
want to do.

382
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,360
I want to call it Geezer's Grind
and I want to just give away,

383
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,280
you know, whatever profits or or
anything that's involved in it.

384
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,040
And he goes, I'll do you one
better.

385
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,800
I'll give away all the proceeds
from it to you Tell me the

386
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,600
charity.
And you know, I poked around a

387
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,280
little bit and I ended up
choosing Roby backstage as the

388
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,000
charity.
So that's where all of the

389
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,440
proceeds from this coffee blend
go to Roby backstage.

390
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,000
And so I'm always promoting it
on on our podcast and stuff.

391
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,200
But the reality is it's actually
excellent, excellent coffee.

392
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,360
I drink it every single day.
You should try it someday.

393
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:55,080
I'll send you a bag if you want,
but really, really good coffee.

394
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,960
And you know, because Jamie
Mardis, the the owner of the

395
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,640
company is, is a live events
guy, he immediately jumped in

396
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,440
and said I'll give away all the
money to to you tell me the

397
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,880
charity as long as it's in the
industry, I'll give it all the

398
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,560
way.
And so we do.

399
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,280
So that money goes to Robbie
backstage and I'm not sure if

400
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,080
you're familiar.
With well, I'll particular

401
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,040
charity, but I'll tell you as a
I'm I'm not and I I'd love to

402
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,320
learn more about it.
I'll tell you as a board member

403
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,880
of the behind the scenes charity
and the president of the Event

404
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,680
Safety Alliance, both of which
are nonprofits, we should give

405
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,040
you some funding.
So the next blend that you, the

406
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,520
next blend that you create,
please choose one of us.

407
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,400
Absolutely.
Yeah.

408
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,720
Yeah.
That's that's great that you're

409
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,120
doing that and and you know it's
funny that you know we were

410
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:40,840
talking about the coffee the
yetis right.

411
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,080
It's these little niche things
that can take hold and every

412
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,600
little penny counts to A to a
charity of the scale which

413
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,320
behind the scenes is and the
scale of which the Event Safety

414
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,000
Alliance is you know behind the
scenes is doing great work and

415
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,560
it's empowered by Lori
Rubenstein and they and they you

416
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,040
know they've put tools out for
you can you can get mental

417
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,240
health first aid training which
is a program that's been around

418
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,120
for a lot longer than people
realize.

419
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,680
But, but what Lori and the team
did over behind the scenes was

420
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,400
craft a version of it that fits
our lexicon that you know that's

421
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,040
directed towards our people.
And we talked about mental

422
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,520
health sorry mental health in
ways that apply to this, the the

423
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,800
settings that we see typically
in life and they've had great

424
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,880
success and trained several
hundreds of hundreds of people

425
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,480
in it.
And and at the very least, the

426
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,800
training helps to break down the
stigma of mental health and

427
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:46,080
gives you the tools to spot the
potential for someone in crisis

428
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,640
and then get steer that person
towards help.

429
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,080
Yeah, I think I actually spoke
with, I spoke with Lori during

430
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,640
the pandemic about that.
And I said, you know, for a guy

431
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,600
like me who just talks to people
all day through my business

432
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,280
through, you know, the Zoom
calls that I do through my

433
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,760
podcast, whatever, I feel like I
need to know more.

434
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,040
Like do you have a simple course
that I can take so that I can

435
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,720
recognize when somebody's, you
know, in a in a spiral or

436
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,360
something.
And I, I don't remember why

437
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,120
nothing clicked at the time, but
it didn't end up happening.

438
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,880
But anyways, no, I mean.
But there is right.

439
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,520
That's the mental health first
aid training.

440
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,720
Yeah.
And there's, you know, if you go

441
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,400
to behindthescenescharity.org,
there's a number of resources

442
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,760
that they've got there to help,
to help people help themselves,

443
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,520
and to help organizations learn
more about the things that are

444
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,280
plaguing the industry.
Yeah, no.

445
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,680
She and and everyone at at that
organization have always done

446
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,160
such an excellent job and you
know, really was as far as I can

447
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,120
recall the 1st to to really get
involved in a very industry

448
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,920
specific charity for our our
space.

449
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,360
So yeah, I mean again thank you
for everything you're doing

450
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,200
there.
I want to get into sort of your

451
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,200
transition in life into you know
almost like a public servant,

452
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,040
you know from from you know a
rock'n'roll foundation like so

453
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,640
many people in our industry.
But so let's get into that a

454
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,720
little bit.
Like, I I've, I've read your

455
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,320
bio, I've listened to some
podcasts.

456
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,840
I've done a bit of research on
you.

457
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,680
I'm kind of a, you know, a
creepy follower here trying to

458
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960
figure out who you are and stuff
and you're.

459
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,880
You're an informed podcast.
Producer.

460
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,200
I'm an informed podcast guy.
I can't call myself a producer

461
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,840
because my producer is in the
green room right now listening

462
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,600
and and she'll get very angry
with me.

463
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,240
She'll say you're no producer,
you're just some guy with a

464
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,200
microphone.
So from what I understand, you

465
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,400
came straight out of college and
went into trade school learning

466
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,880
electronics.
Almost.

467
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:05,520
So I the journey started in
fifth grade that was the master

468
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,960
of ceremonies and the technician
for the Mayday Parade.

469
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,560
And then I was fortunate enough
to be in a school district that

470
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,040
had a a broad television and
theater program.

471
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,600
So I got out of, you know,
regular school through that.

472
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:23,320
But I I tried college on for my
dad and college and I didn't fit

473
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,160
and then went to electronic
school.

474
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,200
Interesting.
But I mean, that might have been

475
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,280
your first sign that we needed
some regulations towards safety

476
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,480
when they're letting 1/5 grader
be a technician, you?

477
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,800
Know technician as a fifth
grader means you're carrying the

478
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,920
equipment out and you're
plugging it in, right?

479
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,440
OK, Yeah.
I always wanted those kids who

480
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,720
took stuff apart at home and
never put it back together.

481
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,880
Me too.
Me too.

482
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,200
Yeah.
I have some great stories about

483
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,960
that.
Like it never worked again once

484
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,760
I got into it.
Yeah.

485
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,480
So that evolved into me making
my own Pyro.

486
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:57,880
That's a different story
altogether.

487
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,200
I did that as well.
Yeah.

488
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,440
I did that as well and my my
first band we we took these

489
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,320
these like J boxes and we used A
at the time these this is in the

490
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:15,480
70s or whatever the the click
high beam thing out of a car

491
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,920
that was our switch So that was
mounted to a little wooden block

492
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,800
on the stage or like a a little
sheet of plywood on the stage

493
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,680
and that just was wired into
this J box and and that was what

494
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,960
ignited the pyro.
I mean, what could possibly go

495
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,360
wrong right and?
We have similar stories.

496
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,280
Yeah.
And so, you know, the biggest

497
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,760
thing was I was the singer.
And we just had to make sure

498
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,160
that I wasn't standing, like,
straddled over top of one of

499
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,520
these boxes when somebody
accidentally stepped on the the

500
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:51,960
high beam switch.
You know, So yeah, but so in the

501
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,600
5th grade, you're a tech.
And then you went to electronics

502
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,520
trade school because you hated
college to appease your father,

503
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,440
right?
And what happened from there?

504
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,160
How'd you how'd you end up
deciding instead you were gonna

505
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,120
be a live events person?
I'm sure there's a long

506
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,720
transition.
Well, it's it.

507
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,680
It was quick, but there was one
job coming out of electronic

508
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:22,160
school that I took that was not
industry related and it was the

509
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,320
very beginning.
This is 82 is the very beginning

510
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,160
of ATM machines, the money money
dispensary machines.

511
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,240
And there was a bank near my
home that was putting its first

512
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,840
ATM machines in and they needed
an ATM technician.

513
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,520
And I was fresh out of
electronics school.

514
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,640
So I got the strap on a gun and
go in the vault side of the ATM

515
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,720
machines and unjam them and get
them back to work again and then

516
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
move on to the next bank where
the next machine was broken

517
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:54,920
down.
In those days they broke down

518
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,120
all the time, multiple times a
day.

519
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,360
So that was my one foray outside
of the entertainment business

520
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,200
intentionally.
But at the same time, near where

521
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,560
I lived, a brand new nightclub
was being built to do

522
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,880
competition with Studio 54 and
the limelight and the like up in

523
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,280
New York and I, they had an ad
in the paper.

524
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,760
My mom spotted the ad in the
paper and she said you should go

525
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,320
try for this.
And it was a dinner theater that

526
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
converted after dinner into a
nightclub.

527
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,760
And in those days it was in the
early days before the nightclub

528
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,280
fully opened, it was doing Vegas
style review shows.

529
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,880
So I got in there as a
technician and I worked the

530
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,240
Vegas style review shows as a
technician.

531
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,640
But then in the overnight hours,
I would work wiring the special

532
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,520
effects for the nightclub
component and and building the

533
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,400
electronics and things like that
for the nightclub component.

534
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,480
I mean, I was Technician #4 on a
team or 10 on a team of quite a

535
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,800
few.
But I was there, I was in it.

536
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,760
I was now I transitioned the
only thing that made me

537
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,000
passionate, which I discovered
in in grade school into a

538
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,680
professional career, a job at
19, right.

539
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,640
So that's that was the bridge.
That was the timing of the

540
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,920
bridge into professional event
entertainment.

541
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,320
Backstage Ness and.
I never had this desire to be on

542
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,640
the stage.
Right.

543
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,640
But so that nightclub thing, did
that like, make you want to be

544
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,280
in the nightclub business
forever, 'cause, you know, I

545
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,960
mean, that kind of bug.
Like we seem to follow some

546
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,920
similar paths, but that kind of
bug hit me when I think I I I

547
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,000
was working at a music store and
I sold a lighting package

548
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,360
because that's where you bought
it at the time because in

549
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,360
Western Canada there were no
lighting retailers or anything.

550
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,520
So you bought it from a music
store typically, and, you know,

551
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,240
our technicians installed it.
And then seeing it all come

552
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,720
together the way that we had
sort of drawn it on a piece of

553
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,720
paper, I was hooked.
I was like, wow, this is the

554
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,160
coolest thing ever.
I just want to be in the

555
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,360
nightclub business now.
And you know, I was a

556
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,320
rock'n'roll guy, but you know,
it, it was a whole different

557
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,320
world and you could sell this
permanent installation and see

558
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,720
it come together and they'd use
it over and over again.

559
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,080
And so, did that grab you at all
or?

560
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,400
Yeah, I mean, I think it at 19
you, you know the thing that's

561
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,960
in front of you, right?
And at that time I knew

562
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:34,000
nightclubs as a young person and
and it was a safe space.

563
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,560
It was a secure job.
I fit in, I understood the work,

564
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,080
I understood the assignments and
I did the assignments right.

565
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,960
And as my personality came out
in that, I ended up getting

566
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,080
hired by the design team that
that helped to design that

567
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,280
nightclub while working at the
nightclub and they were building

568
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,320
things like Babias in New York
and you know a bunch of other

569
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,680
clubs in New York.
And the audio side of that was

570
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:06,600
Richard Long Audio and and he
was building the biggest, most

571
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,280
powerful JBL speaker systems
known at the time.

572
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
So I had this crossover
understanding and working

573
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,400
alongside of Richard Long and
his team and OJ Productions was

574
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,000
the was the other company that
was building the nightclubs and

575
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,320
interestingly a company called
International Robotics that

576
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,760
built this dancing robot that
came out of the spaceship in

577
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,040
this nightclub and danced with
the danced with the patrons in

578
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,040
the club for a while.
So I was kind of immersed in.

579
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,239
Right.
I was kind of immersed in the

580
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,000
nightclub scene in New York City
and and in in outside of

581
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,400
Philadelphia where this club was
that I worked at.

582
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,960
And I was going to the first,
you know, the the first, the

583
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,000
nightclub and bar trade shows
that were happening in Vegas at

584
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,280
that time.
So I was, I was a young geezer

585
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,080
of all this.
Jon Taffer.

586
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,920
Oh no.
Oh, to put those on.

587
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,920
Oh jeez, I'm not going to
remember it.

588
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,240
I'm not going to.
Remember, I remember him so

589
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,240
well.
Really slick guy with a

590
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:11,640
permanent tan all the time.
Like he looked like Trump or

591
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,520
something.
You know, like he just always

592
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,520
had a tan, always had a cigar
hanging out of his mouth.

593
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,240
Oh God, what was his?
Name, Yeah.

594
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,480
I I knew him.
Well.

595
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,920
Yeah, well, anyways, those were
fun.

596
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,320
Shows when that first started,
yeah.

597
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,360
Yeah, yeah, everyone handing.
Out free drinks.

598
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,680
And and pizza and whatever.
Like you'd just walk around to

599
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:31,960
the different booths.
Free everything.

600
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,120
Wanted be given away cigars.
Wanted be given away food.

601
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,760
Wanted be given away margaritas.
Yeah, it was.

602
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,760
It was just a party.
So the nightclub was the thing

603
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,040
that I understood and it was the
thing that was in front of me at

604
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,840
that time and that evolved to an
opportunity at Disney, which

605
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,600
evolved to my first.
Actually, I went while I was at

606
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,120
Disney, I went to film school,
which was I wasn't a four year

607
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,560
degree in film school.
It was a an accelerated program

608
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,480
being put on by Universal Disney
in a partnership with Valencia

609
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,160
University.
At that time, mid 80s Florida

610
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,520
was going to be the Hollywood
East and they were trying to

611
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,520
rapidly build technicians to
work in the film business and

612
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,960
and bring up the population of
those in Florida.

613
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,280
And I was lucky enough to get
accepted into that one year

614
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,920
program and and went through it.
And then before I could land my

615
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,120
first work behind the scenes in
a film role or television role,

616
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,720
I ended up on tour with a a
corporate show.

617
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,760
Oh, interesting.
I want to go back to that

618
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,320
nightclub for a minute because I
don't.

619
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,480
I don't remember if I read it or
if I heard it on another

620
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,720
podcast.
But something happened that I

621
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:50,280
think probably started to kind
of put the bug in your head

622
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,680
about about event safety or
equipment safety or just safety

623
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,680
in general when it comes to
producing shows and and the the

624
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,320
equipment we use, you had a
there was an accident that you

625
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,440
were involved in.
That's right.

626
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,080
That's right.
It was the grand opening night,

627
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,240
Suppress opening.
We were not ready to open.

628
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,760
You know, we should not have
opened that night, but the

629
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,120
wheels were in motion and we
were going to open come hell or

630
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,240
high water.
Typical of most large nightclubs

631
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,560
today, still, by the way.
Yeah, which nothing changes in.

632
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,480
Some rock'n'roll bands too
sometimes, right?

633
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:32,760
So we get to the moment of the
night, the big reveal of the

634
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,560
this giant spaceship that tracks
out over the house and and it's

635
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,280
it's preceded by shuttlecraft.
You know remember Star Wars,

636
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,080
right at that at that time was
massive and the shuttlecraft

637
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,560
came out on tracks of their own
independent of the spaceship and

638
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,360
the spaceship then came down to
the center of the club and

639
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,760
delivered the robot.
Well, I was in the booth at the

640
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,960
the control booth look, DJ booth
looking out over the dance bird

641
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:05,480
at this big crescendo moment.
A scream very proximate to where

642
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,480
I was, and one of these
shuttlecraft had run off the end

643
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,440
of the track came and came down
from 30 feet.

644
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,880
It probably weighed something on
the order of 800 lbs with all

645
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,440
the components with it.
And it went through the skull of

646
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,440
a woman right at the outside the
DJ booth and killed her.

647
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:28,400
And at the time, you know, I
was, as I said, I was a

648
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,640
volunteer firefighter as well.
So my first reaction was to try

649
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,000
to go help.
Well, God, that's awful.

650
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:38,480
And the other part of that story
is I was operating that fixture

651
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,200
when it came off the end of.
The trial Oh my goodness.

652
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:49,040
And and you know the, the, the
what occurred was the the safety

653
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,760
mechanisms to have prevented
that thing from coming off.

654
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,680
You know the track had not yet
been installed right.

655
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600
There was meant to be micro
switches which turned off the

656
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,000
trolley motor that pushed it up
and down the I-beam and there

657
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,560
was meant to be a welded steel
stop at the end of the track.

658
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,120
None of that had been installed
yet and instead there was AC

659
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,080
clamp just clamped on the other
track.

660
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,160
Well this is a factory trolley
motor and when it hit the C

661
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,080
clamp it just pushed the C clamp
off and down came the special

662
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,720
effect.
It was awful, you know, I was 19

663
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,160
at the time and it really
resonated.

664
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,760
Obviously for me it's awful what
happened to that girl and her

665
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,600
family and.
Certainly not your.

666
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,920
Fault.
You know, No, I, I.

667
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,680
And when it went through court
and you know what we all got

668
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,000
deposed and and it was you know
it was determined that it wasn't

669
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,960
my fault.
But it doesn't.

670
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,800
You know it's like if somebody
rents you a car and and they

671
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,560
don't tell you that the brakes
are bad and you plow down a a

672
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,760
person still let you behind the
wheel.

673
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:48,880
Right.
Yeah.

674
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,920
So it kind of laid in this
foundational DNA about, holy

675
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,000
crap, I don't ever want to live
through something like that

676
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,160
again or or be responsible for
something like that again.

677
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:02,560
Did you have to connect?
Are you operating the lights

678
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,400
going forward?
Like did you have to?

679
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,520
Well, that's just it.
Well, that's part.

680
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,520
Yeah, I absolutely.
And that's part of the story.

681
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,120
Right after the accident, of
course, we began testing all the

682
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,000
equipment every night to its
limits.

683
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,000
And we ran everything up against
the stops.

684
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,400
And, you know, we went through a
very thoughtful, comprehensive

685
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,920
safety check every night, which
didn't happen on the opening

686
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,720
night.
And then so transition from

687
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,840
this, you know, this really
awful moment which doesn't leave

688
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,680
your brain to going to work at
Disney and and and participating

689
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,000
in the Epcot show in lasers and
fireworks, where safety is part

690
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,720
of the culture every day.
Yeah, it felt like, oh, OK, this

691
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,600
is what it should have been
there.

692
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,920
And that, you know, was a
continuation of the story at the

693
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:04,000
nightclub and the story that you
know ultimately becomes some of

694
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,960
the the energy that brought us
the Event Safety Alliance.

695
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,480
Yeah, I was going to ask that.
I mean if you, if you were to

696
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,320
Fast forward to when the safety
alliance, like was that part of

697
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,480
the foundation that kind of
always in the back of your mind

698
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,120
or the front of your mind, you
were always thinking about

699
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,920
safety from that point forward
or you know, was it just a

700
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,480
coincidence that you ended up in
that business, the safety

701
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,880
business?
No, I myself to say that I've

702
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,200
always behaved safely would be a
lie, right?

703
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,760
But I mean right.
But I would, I will tell you

704
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:45,240
that the that night in 1983
never leaves my subconscious.

705
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:50,720
It it really doesn't.
But there were other what's the

706
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:52,400
word I want?
There were other, you know,

707
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,560
impactful moments throughout
life.

708
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,280
You know, I was standing on
stage as a technician that when

709
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,240
Guns N' Roses and Metallica did
their first show in 1992 in

710
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,840
Montreal and James Hatfield set
himself on fire accidentally

711
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,160
over the flame order and out
that his hand to the neck of the

712
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,040
guitar.
And then 55,000 people rioted.

713
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,920
And there I was like standing on
the stage looking at all these

714
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,520
people riding, trying to figure
out how am I going to protect

715
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,880
myself, how am I going to stay
alive here And then and you were

716
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,760
on stage also, that's.
Wild, I mean.

717
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,760
Yeah, I was a pity.
Attending full mayhem on.

718
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,120
Stage with absolute mayhem.
Absolute mayhem.

719
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,360
I, at one point I'm like, oh, I
know I'll go hide in the bus and

720
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,480
then I go out to the bus and I'm
in the bus and I'm thinking to

721
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,040
myself, no, they're going to
come back here and they're going

722
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,920
to overturn the bus and set the
bus on fire, get out, you know,

723
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,760
And then found the stairwell
somewhere in the arena, if I

724
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,560
remember correctly, in the
stadium.

725
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,960
But again, so there's.
And here's this other moment,

726
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,840
there's this other gosh, what's
the word?

727
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:03,080
I want inflection point where
fear of life and life are in the

728
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,440
balance and something well out
of my control is happening.

729
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,800
And then in 90 cut to 1999 where
I was fortunate enough to be a

730
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,080
one of many stage managers, I
think there were four of us at

731
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:21,000
Woodstock, 99 on the mainstage
and you know and 200,000 people

732
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,440
are rioting and because of their
frustration with the event and

733
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,160
again completely out of my
control.

734
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,720
I wasn't going to go do anything
to prevent it, of course, but

735
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:36,080
but I find myself like deeply
impacted by witnessing that

736
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,440
first hand and being there.
So throughout my professional

737
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,040
journey there are these
inflection points that kind of

738
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,080
tear open what happened in 1983
and and bring that back to the

739
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,880
surface and lay in new DNA about
safety.

740
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,080
Yeah I'm I'm I'm a bit curious
about the these these riot

741
00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:01,080
situations like you know and you
don't even have to answer this

742
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,680
if you don't want but it is your
first thought how do I protect

743
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,920
myself or is your first thought
how do I stop these people from

744
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,560
riding or is your first thought
how can I help to protect the

745
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,400
band?
I I mean, where do you go in

746
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,320
that situation?
I I I think my head runs to all

747
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,160
of those things all at once.
Yeah.

748
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,080
And I'll.
I'll tell you.

749
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,240
In reflection on 92 in Montreal,
I went when I saw that people

750
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:31,200
were going to charge the stage.
Without thinking, I grabbed a

751
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,280
fire extinguisher, like I was
gonna squirt the fire

752
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,080
extinguisher of people and keep
them off the stage.

753
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,560
So I did initially have this.
I have to protect my land,

754
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,600
right?
And then I thought, oh, this is

755
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,080
bigger than you know.
And all these thoughts are

756
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,560
happening at one fire
extinguisher.

757
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,400
Yeah, right.
In this in this crazy kind of

758
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,520
dichotomy and and you know you
just you you process what you're

759
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,520
processing in the you you do
dumb shit when you're feeling

760
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:01,280
threatened.
Right.

761
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,680
And and so I think I was doing
dumb shit and then I and then I

762
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,880
ultimately went and and and it
switched to protect myself.

763
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,280
And at that time I didn't have a
you know, I didn't have a

764
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,280
family.
I didn't you know.

765
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,720
So I was I was thinking with
bravado, probably more than I

766
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:23,840
was thinking with brain.
But ultimately it did turn to

767
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,600
protect yourself.
And then they were, you know,

768
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,560
when that tour came back couple
weeks later after James had

769
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,560
been, you know, stabilized and
there was a path forward, we all

770
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,160
had this.
We know, OK, we know what this

771
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,160
movie looks like.
And then the very first show

772
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,000
back or with one of the very
first shows back, Axel did it

773
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,400
again.
And he showed up late to the

774
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,600
show and then he got in a limo
and he left.

775
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,360
And the promoters like, you
know, called the limo and said

776
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,800
you turn around, bring him back
here, don't you stop at any stop

777
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,680
signs, tap them.
So, you know, this kind of it's

778
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,720
it.
Our job has enough adrenaline in

779
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,160
it, in it already, without
having to contend with riots and

780
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,160
so.
And what about the Woodstock

781
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,040
one?
What did the the Woodstock one?

782
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,720
Was it a similar situation where
it went, you know from 42

783
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,160
different thoughts to I better
find a safe place to survive

784
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,960
this?
Yeah, I I'm not impressed with

785
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,200
myself at Woodstock, but what
was happening I I think if I

786
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,760
recall correctly, it is the the,
you know, this tension had been

787
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,600
building over the entire course
of the four days or whatever it

788
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,680
was.
And whatever the trigger that

789
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:40,160
got it that went from high
tension to riot was, it began

790
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,880
happening away from the
mainstage, you know in in the

791
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,600
far recesses of the March
trailers and things like that.

792
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,280
So and the and the delay towers,
I think I recall those being

793
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,960
tipped over and seeing that
first hand and setting on fire.

794
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,520
And I recall at one point going
out to the delay towers, a delay

795
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,920
tower while it was burning and
then feeling the tension in the

796
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,320
audience and like I'm going
backstage again and protect

797
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,640
myself.
But I guess, I guess for us on

798
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:15,240
the Mainstage, what was less
challenging was felt like the

799
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:19,640
energy of negativity was moving
away from the Mainstage and

800
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,680
towards the towards the
entryways and towards the the

801
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,240
back of house, if you will.
So that it didn't, I don't

802
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,040
recall at any point in time
audience members coming towards

803
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,480
the Mainstage and coming up on
the mainstage, though I've had

804
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,760
that happen when I was with
Marilyn Manson.

805
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,440
So we didn't feel overly, I
don't believe we felt overly

806
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,800
threatened at that time because
it was clearly moving away from

807
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,640
us.
But it was just awful.

808
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,280
I mean the next morning I can
remember being on a scooter or a

809
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,560
a golf cart or something.
And I remember running into LUG

810
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,400
and some of the team that were
out there and we were looking at

811
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,960
these burned up trailers that
were still smoldering and like

812
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,320
how do you make sense of that
that's it's not what we're built

813
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,240
for and it's not what we're
built to see every day.

814
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:09,000
And you kind of in this smog of
a space in the aftermath of

815
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,400
that.
Yeah, it it's amazing what a

816
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,000
crowd can convince itself to do.
You know what I mean?

817
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:22,680
Like one person gets this
ingenious, idiotic idea and then

818
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,480
convinces a few people around
them and next thing you know,

819
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,280
there's 200,000 people riding in
in mud and stuff, right?

820
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,080
Like, I mean it, It's that was
such a disaster.

821
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,680
I remember I had a bunch of
lighting out on that and it it

822
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,880
came back in pretty bad shape.
Oh yeah.

823
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,360
But yeah, I can remember the
next morning the sun coming up

824
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,240
because I don't think any of us
left.

825
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,520
The sun came up and there was
this fog over the field and out

826
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,720
of the fog marching in a single
line across the field where all

827
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:58,320
the state police or first
responders kind of poking

828
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,480
through the refuse on the field
looking for bodies.

829
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,120
And we were just aghast, just
like God, please don't let them

830
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,080
find a body out there, please.
Please, please please please

831
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,680
what a gig that is I.
Remember them coming all the way

832
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,080
to the stage, doing an about
face and going out again?

833
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,840
That was the most surreal thing,
to see them come out of the fog

834
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,440
and then disappear again into
the fog.

835
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,480
It was just like, God, yeah.
And that late stays with you.

836
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,760
I mean, you know, I haven't
thought about that moment for a

837
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,160
while, but I have chills right
now.

838
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:30,320
Just.
Remember it?

839
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,080
No, that's that's incredible
stuff.

840
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,040
I mean there's a few others that
we can talk about as well even,

841
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:39,120
you know, including one very,
very recent one, you know who

842
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,800
whoever saw, you know
paratroopers, you know, climbing

843
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,240
into a a crowd and and killing
people.

844
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:50,320
I, you know, I didn't have that
on my list of things that were

845
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,040
probably going to happen at an
EDM festival, you know?

846
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,000
It's really.
I mean, it's so hard to even

847
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,880
think about right it.
Really is.

848
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:59,920
It really is.
It's disgusting.

849
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,680
So you you following Disney at
some point you you made your way

850
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:12,240
into touring, right?
Yeah, so I went.

851
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:20,440
My roommate got a call somehow
got on this the Bill of Rights

852
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,240
tour, which is a 200th
anniversary of the Bill of

853
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:29,880
Rights, and it was going to
travel to all 50 States and two

854
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,200
cities in California and two
cities in Texas and be out for

855
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,680
more than a year.
And it was an arena sized thing.

856
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,760
And I remember.
No, it was a it was traveling.

857
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:49,080
It was a traveling museum.
Yeah, it was a traveling museum.

858
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,160
It's really interesting in my
view.

859
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,880
But so I remember asking my
roommate that sounds super cool

860
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,360
to be careful.
I try to get on it too.

861
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,880
And I applied.
I don't recall how I applied.

862
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:05,760
I'm sure he helped me as well.
And the I got hired, I got hired

863
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,040
as a technician because it had a
robotic component to it and I

864
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,960
had robotics in my background
through the nightclub and I had

865
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,480
all this mechanical stuff.
I was kind of AI was an early

866
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:22,080
automation guy, if you will.
And so we embarked on this thing

867
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,280
that was out for God.
It was out forever and we were

868
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,080
in each city for a week.
And the premise of the of the

869
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,720
tour was it was 11 tractor
trailers, a geared going into

870
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:40,160
arenas or convention centers in
some instances, and we carried

871
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,600
with us one of the original
handwritten copies of the Bill

872
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,640
of Rights.
Oh my goodness, 200 year.

873
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,480
Old.
Yeah, in a in a hermetically

874
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,920
sealed viewing pod that then
traveled, it traveled on top of

875
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,200
a robotic sled.
The robotic sled and the

876
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,080
document can traveled in the
back of an armored vehicle and

877
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,800
the armored vehicle then
traveled in the back of a

878
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,800
tractor trailer.
So you know, the construct of

879
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,600
the show was as an audience
member and this went out to Boy

880
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,120
Scouts and Girl Scouts and you
know, school age kids, you come

881
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,360
in the arena, you go on the
arena floor and you go through

882
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:22,760
this like Disney pulsed line and
you see videos about how the how

883
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,400
the Bill of Rights impacted the
development of our country.

884
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,640
And then the final thing you do
is you go into a viewing chamber

885
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,280
and you see the actual
handwritten copy and then of

886
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,520
course you dump out into a merch
booth, right.

887
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,200
So it was in, it took a few days
to build and it was in each city

888
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,320
for a week.
So you know, it took a while to

889
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,280
get it done.
That's cool.

890
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,720
That's interesting.
I I don't even recall ever

891
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:50,120
hearing about that.
I ended up being the technical

892
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,920
director for that thing and
there was a, you know, there was

893
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,480
a lot of breaking, cutting edge
technology happening on it at

894
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,840
that time.
And so the production manager,

895
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,160
you were asking about the
transition, the production

896
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:08,640
manager of that became Morris
Lida, who at the time handled

897
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,160
Genesis and Phil Collins and I
think also Pink Floyd and and

898
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,840
some others.
He was also John Belushi's right

899
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,680
hand guy.
Yeah.

900
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,040
Little Axe.
He's, yeah.

901
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:26,200
And he was also a rodeo *.
And he, he asked myself and a

902
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,920
couple other folks to go from
that tour into a Genesis Stadium

903
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,520
tour.
And that was the beginning.

904
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,320
So your first rock'n'roll tour
was Genesis in stadiums, which I

905
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,920
actually saw.
I saw it in.

906
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:44,360
I mean that would have been
what, the early 90s or

907
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,360
something?
Yeah, we can't dance.

908
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,600
I think it was 92.
Yeah, I saw that in, I believe

909
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,240
it was in Miami.
We actually had Miami and Tampa

910
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,240
and I think Tampa, we may have
had to cancel because of Phil's

911
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:03,320
voice anyway, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that was a that was

912
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,520
a cool show.
I remember it.

913
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,560
That was the one where all the
video screens.

914
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,560
Yeah, it was the first ever
touring video screen, and it was

915
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,320
at that time it was a Jumbotron,
so it was massively heavy.

916
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:21,040
And it was also, to make matters
even worse, not only was it the

917
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,160
first touring video screen, it
was the first touring moving

918
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,640
video screen.
So we were tracking these

919
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,080
incredibly heavy screens back
and forth across the.

920
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,760
State.
Yeah, I remember it so now.

921
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,680
Great show all on technology had
never been done before.

922
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,680
Right, Yeah.
Which is so typical in our

923
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,200
industry.
That is so crazy that your very

924
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,880
first rock'n'roll tour was
genesis in stadiums.

925
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:50,840
And probably the only band I
ever really was passionate about

926
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,280
as a kid.
Wow.

927
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:56,720
So you were pretty damn excited.
I was pretty damn lucky.

928
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,880
Yeah, that's really cool.
So I mean, that became what, a

929
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:10,880
20 year touring career ish?
No, I I'm on 35 years of touring

930
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,800
or close to 35 years of touring.
Yeah, well, yeah, 'cause you

931
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,000
still do selective tours, right?
Like you'll still go out and.

932
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:18,840
Tour.
Yeah, that's right.

933
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,040
That's right.
Wow, that's that's awesome.

934
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,160
That's what the math is.
Yeah, that is really, really

935
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:26,480
cool.
So.

936
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,360
Yeah, I've, I've been blessed.
Then from again, this is just me

937
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,000
following notes that I went out
and found.

938
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,280
So something I think happened
that really started to kind of

939
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:44,440
focus another passion for you
and to sort of reshape your your

940
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,400
future a bit was the the
accident that happened in

941
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,480
Indiana at the Indiana State
Fair.

942
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,720
Is that correct?
Or yeah, so that it is correct,

943
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,440
if you know, I think.
Like usual.

944
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,960
No, no, you've done, you've done
your homework more so.

945
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:00,520
Oh.
Good.

946
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,440
Good.
It it, it is correct.

947
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:10,840
I I think the the setup to that
is prior to Indiana happening I

948
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:16,120
had already been using my voice
on conference stages to just

949
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,240
talk about our industry and to
try to you know remind people of

950
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:23,240
things that as an industry we
might want to be considering.

951
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,680
And folks like Larry Smith were
dumb enough to hand me a

952
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,920
microphone and I was dumb enough
to take it, right.

953
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,960
So I was talking there.
I was talking to Pole Star in

954
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:40,600
early days and maybe LDI anyway.
So I was already kind of a voice

955
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,720
that that was expected to be
heard from at some point.

956
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,120
Whether that was good or bad it
remains to be seen.

957
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:52,560
But.
And then, and yeah, greatest

958
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,560
volunteer job ever.
Doesn't Bay well, but.

959
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,360
Also at that.
Damn, am I famous.

960
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,480
Also at that time, all seven of
my followers, right, Right.

961
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:10,280
Also at that time building up to
the Indiana story was my wife

962
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,320
and I had a very long journey
trying to get pregnant and have

963
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:20,760
have a child and and by very
long I mean over six years and

964
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:25,640
so two years prior to Indiana my
we we got my wife got pregnant

965
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:31,920
and my son was born prematurely
significantly prematurely and

966
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,440
two two months early and it was
touch and go.

967
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,200
It was near you know it was an
emergency C-section.

968
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,480
There were a lot of things
building up to that, but the

969
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,760
fact that we had tried for six
years and failed and finally got

970
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,520
to this place where we were
going to succeed and then there

971
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:53,640
was a near failure again just
kind of kept tearing at this,

972
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,560
you know, life is fragile
mindset.

973
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,480
Kidding.
Wow.

974
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,960
And then that kind of stuff
makes you start questioning

975
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,440
whatever your belief system is,
right?

976
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,840
Like, what the hell?
It took us six years to finally

977
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,880
get pregnant.
And now you're doing this to us?

978
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,520
Yeah, that's incredible.
Yeah, that, that, that's a great

979
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,720
encapsulation of the mindset at
that time.

980
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:23,520
And then Indiana happened in
September or August or September

981
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,040
of 2011.
And again, you know, you, you,

982
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,080
you asked what was my first
reaction.

983
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,280
You didn't ask this but I think
to myself what was my first

984
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,240
reaction Indiana.
I was like holy F how do we do

985
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,600
this how do we make wow could
that happen to me Holy crap

986
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,920
where do I go learn to not let
that happen to me to you know

987
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:48,280
how can I be better prepared to
avoid what awful thing just

988
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,000
happened there.
And at that time, let's not

989
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,360
forget our industry was still
making it up.

990
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,200
As we go to to this day, we
still do that to some part and

991
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,800
we we don't have much regulatory
oversight and we don't have.

992
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:04,880
So when I looked around trying
to figure out where I could

993
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,680
learn something, there was
nothing.

994
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:12,640
The closest thing I could find
was the the International

995
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,560
Association of Venue Managers
ran a class called the Academy

996
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,760
for Venue Safety and Security at
that time.

997
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,480
And I enrolled.
I'm like, screw this, I'm going

998
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,720
there because it sounds close.
And at that Academy, you know,

999
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,840
here I am in a room full of
venue manager type people, some

1000
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,640
of whom I knew, but no
production people in there.

1001
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,360
And they were talking about
things like, you know, weather

1002
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,720
disruptions and safety of
audiences and and things that

1003
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,160
impact me as a production
person.

1004
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,600
But downstream of the duty of
care that a venue has.

1005
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,240
And I thought, God, this is
fantastic.

1006
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,920
You know, it's a week of classes
and oh, this is amazing.

1007
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,600
Where are all our people and why
don't we have something like

1008
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:03,160
this at the same time?
There were a number of folks who

1009
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,000
were in communication together
on the, you know, the 800

1010
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,680
conference line talking about
what had occurred in Indiana and

1011
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,080
that we can't let that happen
again.

1012
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,680
So just like COVID, a number of
people were motivated by the

1013
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,640
accident, the tragedy to try to
do something.

1014
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,080
And I happened to be in that
conversation.

1015
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,240
Unfortunately the first call
that I have, the first call that

1016
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:37,760
I tried to set up for this
group, I missed for reasons, you

1017
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,360
know, for family reasons and and
that was unfortunate.

1018
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,040
But anyhow, this, you know, this
small group of people started

1019
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,080
talking about it, and the group
kept getting larger and larger

1020
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,280
and larger over time in the wake
of Indiana.

1021
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,200
And this group was.
And at the same time.

1022
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,320
Like you production managers.
People, whatever.

1023
01:00:53,360 --> 01:01:00,680
Yeah, It was it was Dave Lester.
It was Keith Gosh, Bowen from at

1024
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,720
the time.
He was with the trusting

1025
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,080
company.
It was Tomcat at the time,

1026
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,440
that's right.
Or Thomas.

1027
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:14,360
Gosh, there was a ton of people
on these calls, John Brown and

1028
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,520
we got him listed in the event
safety guide.

1029
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,440
This, this original posse of
folks, that cadre of folks that

1030
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,800
got on Charlie Hernandez and all
of us were, you know, just

1031
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:26,680
talking about God, what do we
do?

1032
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:27,680
What do we do?
What do we do?

1033
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:33,240
At the same time, I was putting
myself through this training and

1034
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,320
and as the conversation
progressed it became clearer and

1035
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:41,840
clearer that we we have very few
guidelines that are directed at

1036
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:48,680
us, at us as an industry.
You know, Keith Bowen was was

1037
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,000
aware of and there were others
on the call as well who knew

1038
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:57,160
about our EU s s version of the
temporary demountable structure

1039
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,320
standard to try to speak to you
know, the outdoor stages we

1040
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,880
erected.
But what was happening is these

1041
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,800
things were happening in such
small pockets and they weren't

1042
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:13,520
getting wide attention.
And then one day my my son who

1043
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:21,080
took forever to come to us, and
I are home alone and he, I can't

1044
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:22,640
hear him anymore from the
office.

1045
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:24,240
I can't.
I I don't hear him wrestling.

1046
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,600
So I'm like, ah, I'd better go
check on him and see where I

1047
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:28,960
can't find.
I can't find him in that.

1048
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,680
Quiet boys are a problem.
Quiet girls?

1049
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,200
No problem.
They're reading a book or baking

1050
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:36,880
something, doing something
smart.

1051
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,800
Quiet boys are doing something
really bad.

1052
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,600
Yeah.
Yeah, well, you're right.

1053
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,480
So I find him in the pantry.
He had climbed the shelves of

1054
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,560
the pantry to get to some candy
at the top shelf.

1055
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,320
And of course, I did what every
dad would do.

1056
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,200
I no, I didn't get him down.
I took a picture of it and and I

1057
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,240
said, I said, what are you
doing, son?

1058
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:00,560
He said I'm OK.
Dad, what are you?

1059
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:02,520
Yeah, but what are you doing?
He said I'm OK, Dad.

1060
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:04,360
OK.
So I sat there and waited for

1061
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:05,600
it.
And then eventually he said,

1062
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,040
Dad, can you get me down?
So he got himself up, but he

1063
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:13,160
couldn't get himself down.
That night, laying in bed, I had

1064
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:17,200
this juxtaposition moment, like
my son had this expectation of

1065
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:18,560
safety.
He didn't know he was in harm's

1066
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:19,760
way.
He just had to.

1067
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:21,200
You know he's going to be fine,
right?

1068
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,440
He put himself in this place,
just like those people in

1069
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:30,000
Indiana, the seven who died,
they went into that venue not

1070
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,640
believing they were in harm's
way.

1071
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,920
We had the duty to take care of
them and we failed.

1072
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,640
So it's like the the our
audiences have an expectation of

1073
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,160
safety.
And then it all just started to

1074
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,600
like in my I couldn't sleep
anymore.

1075
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,840
And all this expectation of
safety and and and and and so

1076
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:55,800
that became part of the energy
that convinced this group we

1077
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:57,400
need an organization.
We need to.

1078
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,880
We need to.
Speak on behalf of our industry

1079
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,960
We yeah we need to find ways to
create learning material and.

1080
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,800
But let.
Me back up here a second.

1081
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,560
Isn't it incredible though, an
industry the size of ours at

1082
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,560
that point?
It wasn't quite as big as it is

1083
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,040
today, but it it was big in
2011.

1084
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,480
And so an industry the size of
ours, how hard number one, you

1085
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:26,280
had to work to find training,
safety training for a rather

1086
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,640
large and and rather dangerous
industry.

1087
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,560
If you look at the things that
we're doing, hanging 10s of

1088
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,080
thousands of pounds over
people's heads and flying things

1089
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,680
out into the audience, blowing
shit up on stage, you know,

1090
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,400
we're we're a fairly dangerous
industry with no real safety

1091
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,280
protocol.
And so, you know, you wanted to

1092
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,600
be trained, you wanted to learn,
you had a passion and a desire

1093
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,960
to become better and had no way
to do it except this venue

1094
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:59,160
management thing.
And and then secondly, it's such

1095
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,400
a good point, this expectation
of safety.

1096
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:06,720
Like when you get on a boat, you
expect that someone tested the

1097
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,600
hull of that boat.
It's not going to leak.

1098
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,640
It's not going to sink.
It's not, you know, the engine's

1099
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,320
going to propel it forward,
hopefully, and things are going

1100
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,120
to work properly.
And it's not just going to catch

1101
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,520
fire or something.
When you go to a concert, you

1102
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,760
expect that all these experts
with these backstage past things

1103
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,760
hanging around their neck are
going to take really good care

1104
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,160
of you.
And everything's been thought

1105
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:30,680
of, everything's been tested.
There's all kinds of safety

1106
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,280
protocol and rules and things
that they're following.

1107
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,000
You know, God forbid, like, I'm
not allowed to speed over, you

1108
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,520
know, 40 miles an hour on my way
to the venue.

1109
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,320
But I get to the venue and
there's no rules for people

1110
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,800
flying spaceships over my head
or whatever, right?

1111
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:49,560
So I don't know if I'm making a
statement or asking a question,

1112
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,440
but to me that has always been a
shocking thing about our

1113
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:57,160
industry.
It is both a blessing and a

1114
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,040
curse, I think.
You know, I often say if you

1115
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,120
benchmark the modern day live
music touring industry back to

1116
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:10,480
The Beatles at Shea Stadium in
65, I think we have done a lot

1117
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:15,320
of cool shit and a lot of
dangerous shit between then and

1118
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,280
now without a whole lot of
oversight.

1119
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,920
Just simply the desire to not F
it up and not get some of our

1120
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,360
colleagues hurt or our artists
or our audience members hurt has

1121
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:31,480
kept us as safe as we are.
And so you, one could argue,

1122
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,080
what's the point?
We don't need it.

1123
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:34,720
We're doing OK.
And, you know, if you think

1124
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,120
about the whole planet, you
think about the way the sun

1125
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,040
moves around the planet, the
number of shows that are

1126
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,360
happening on any given day, and
the fact that only once in a

1127
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,720
while do we hear something
catastrophic.

1128
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:51,280
It's not like we're we're
overtly screwing it up.

1129
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,800
We're doing a good point.
It's a good.

1130
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,920
Point like you would think there
would be a lot more problems.

1131
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,840
And by the way, those once in a
while events are usually either

1132
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:05,560
weather related or some asshole
with a gun related or you know,

1133
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,960
things like that.
It's not typically probably down

1134
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:13,600
to incompetence or or just a
complete failure by a crew to

1135
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,440
put a safety on a light fixture
or something like that.

1136
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:21,040
Like it's, you know, it's
usually down to some some

1137
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,320
outside.
Unforeseen.

1138
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,120
Yeah, So, yeah.
I think that's probably true.

1139
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,480
I mean, I don't have the metric,
but I would let's, let's

1140
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,760
hypothesize for a minute.
Like of all 10 things that we

1141
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:38,400
hear about that are disasters in
2023, whatever the number is,

1142
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,520
maybe only two or three are
related to incompetence in

1143
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:44,480
producing the event.
I think it's what you're saying.

1144
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,800
Right, Yeah.
So I don't have a scientific

1145
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,360
background on those numbers, but
I think you're right.

1146
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:53,960
I think, you know, obviously,
you know, Christina Grimmie,

1147
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,760
Pulse nightclub, Bataclan,
Vegas, Manchester, those

1148
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,400
examples are the kinds of things
you're referring to that you

1149
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,920
know, these weren't production
related failures, these were bad

1150
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,960
people doing bad things that are
hard.

1151
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,000
That's hard to predict.
And as an industry, we, you know

1152
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:18,279
who foresaw our industry needing
to think about active shooter

1153
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:21,160
training and all these other
things, that's just ridiculous.

1154
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,720
You know, even the Event Safety
Alliance, it was born out of the

1155
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:29,560
tragedy in Indiana, focused only
at that time on weather

1156
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,960
structure and command and
control.

1157
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:36,040
And since then we've had to
expand the nature of our subject

1158
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:41,040
matter expertise and and you
know find a new find additional

1159
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:45,040
ways to talk about new problems
and empower our industry to

1160
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,080
figure out how to plan for the
potential for this.

1161
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,840
Project There's a guy I had on
my podcast a few years ago and

1162
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,279
you might even know him.
I think a British guy.

1163
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:57,600
Eric.
Eric Stewart.

1164
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,160
Yeah, of course I know him.
Yeah, so we had him on and I was

1165
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,160
blown away because he was all
that other stuff, like he wasn't

1166
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,240
talking about people hanging
lights wrong or, you know,

1167
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,080
incompetence of the production
itself.

1168
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:15,359
He was talking about crowd
management, people, you know,

1169
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,120
using drones to come into
concert events and drop things

1170
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,200
on the crowd.
You know, stuff like what

1171
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:26,000
happened in in Israel, You know,
he was talking about those types

1172
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:32,399
of things, the Las Vegas.
And I found it incredibly

1173
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:35,359
interesting and incredibly scary
as hell.

1174
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:39,000
Like the stuff that this guy was
telling me could happen, you

1175
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,120
know, whether you're at your
kids graduation or you're at a

1176
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:45,399
football game or you're at a
concert event, you know and and

1177
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,680
it makes you want to lock
yourself up in your house and

1178
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,040
never go out.
You know when you listen to him,

1179
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,760
right?
The the things.

1180
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:53,479
That, yeah, I'm super grateful
for.

1181
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:56,080
Sorry to interrupt.
You no, you didn't.

1182
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,040
I I I'm super grateful for Eric
Stewart and and his wife Don and

1183
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,040
the work that they do.
And you know as you said he

1184
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:06,680
comes from the public safety
side at some very high rolls on

1185
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:10,920
the public safety side in
England and has made him his

1186
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,200
passion project to propel crowd
safety and crowd management

1187
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,360
ideas to the forefront.
And you know England thankfully

1188
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:24,600
has well thankfully for the for
the rapid success of the ESA.

1189
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,080
England had their
transformational moment a decade

1190
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:32,200
or more before and we were able
to borrow a lot of our work from

1191
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,360
what they had already done.
You know we used to joke I can

1192
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:40,400
remember going to England and
and they had embraced the safety

1193
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:44,400
culture while the rest of the
industry had not.

1194
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:46,680
And I can remember going into
places like the other two going

1195
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,200
screw you I'm not wearing a hard
hat.

1196
01:10:48,440 --> 01:10:50,360
I'm not wearing my heart.
You know what I'm not doing

1197
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:50,720
that.
I'm.

1198
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,120
I own the building.
I'm the production manager today

1199
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:57,760
right.
And and and I that is

1200
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,560
representative I think still to
this day have a lot of the

1201
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,400
mindset of people who are
supposed to be the adults in

1202
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:08,480
charge of the concerts and and
events that go from city to

1203
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:11,360
city.
And we, we have a propensity to

1204
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:15,200
come in the building saying I'm
in charge and my rules are at

1205
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:19,280
play today.
And we do that for a number of

1206
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,880
things not related to safety,
but we also do it related to

1207
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,520
safety.
And and that's unfortunate that

1208
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,520
that's our culture.
I think one of the, you know,

1209
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:33,720
the hopeful outcomes of the
Event Safety Alliance is that we

1210
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:37,000
demonstrate that.
We know we can change the

1211
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,680
culture.
It's not so much about making

1212
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,320
codes, although that's important
for us to, to demonstrate our

1213
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,280
value.
It's really about how do we

1214
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:49,640
advance the cultural belief of
safety.

1215
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,040
Like, you get in your car, you
put your seat belt on.

1216
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:56,240
You don't even think about it.
But you're behaving safely.

1217
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:58,640
And you're doing that out of
habit.

1218
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:01,720
Because as a child, maybe not
for you and I, but as a child,

1219
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,240
you know that was what you were
taught from the beginning.

1220
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:05,600
You never even thought twice
about it.

1221
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,800
You don't think about I'm just
driving without my seat belt.

1222
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,720
You know Jim that is such a
great point and and it's sort of

1223
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,120
old school new school kind of
thing And and it's it's a very

1224
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,240
positive thing because I
remember, you know it's not that

1225
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,280
long ago and I remember a
particular accident and I'm not

1226
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:23,200
gonna talk about any of the
companies involved.

1227
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,000
You may or may not know.
But I remember a particular

1228
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:29,200
accident I think it might have
been in Washington DC where

1229
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:35,720
gentleman stoned out of his
brains climbing trust no fall

1230
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:40,720
arrest system whatsoever and
fell and and was killed and

1231
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,720
everyone just kind of went maybe
we should use fall arrest and

1232
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:49,600
make people wear it every time
they're climbing.

1233
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:54,200
You know maybe we have a drug
problem in in this space and in

1234
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:58,120
very dangerous jobs.
People shouldn't be drunk or

1235
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:00,160
stoned doing those jobs.
You know.

1236
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:04,400
And Fast forward to today.
I was talking to a friend of

1237
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:10,480
mine, a young guy who's a video
tech, and he quit a production

1238
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:16,200
because they wanted him to do
things that he deemed unsafe.

1239
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,080
And when he explained it to me,
I remember judging him like I

1240
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:25,320
didn't say it out loud, but my
internal mouth was going, don't

1241
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,400
be such a pussy, you know, but
because he was complaining about

1242
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:35,240
things that would have been like
10 times worse 20-30 years ago.

1243
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:40,600
But today they've got such
better standards with regard to

1244
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,160
safety, at least safety
protocols for these people who

1245
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,120
are climbing.
And am I wrong?

1246
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:57,160
I would say, well, it's not
standards that cause rigor to

1247
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:01,000
wear a harness.
I mean, we still fight the old

1248
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:06,560
school mindset of bravado and
I've always done it like this

1249
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,960
and I don't need a harness and
I've got it on, but I haven't

1250
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,360
clipped in.
These things are still really

1251
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:15,920
prevalent in our industry and
and you know, for the 1st 10

1252
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,280
years of the Event Safety
Alliance, we tried to push the

1253
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,440
Bible top down.
Like let's get all the old dogs

1254
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:25,960
in the conversation.
Surely they'll they'll respect

1255
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:28,520
what we're attempting to do and
they'll help make sure that it's

1256
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:33,200
the behavior, the normal
behavior and that didn't that

1257
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:35,160
you know that's kind of like top
down economics.

1258
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,680
It didn't really work out so
well and it's not that it's not

1259
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,720
that the big established names
don't respect safety.

1260
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:43,560
They absolutely do.
They don't want anybody hurt.

1261
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:47,080
It's not the priority for them.
They're they're the projects are

1262
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:50,560
massive and and it's not to say
that they under prioritize it.

1263
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:55,080
It's just not top of mind.
So we're transitioning in this

1264
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:59,560
year and last, the Event Safety
Alliance to try to really go

1265
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,600
bottom and middle out.
Like let's get into colleges,

1266
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,280
let's get into high schools,
let's make sure that students at

1267
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:09,320
all levels, if they're learning
about safety, they've got the

1268
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:14,040
Event Safety guide, which is
going through a revision.

1269
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:16,920
But it's a good starting place.
We had nothing prior to.

1270
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:18,840
About safety guide industry.
Right.

1271
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:20,920
I didn't.
Realize it was still a problem

1272
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:22,280
today though.
Like I thought.

1273
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:26,280
I thought all riggers had to
wear, you know, harnesses and.

1274
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,720
And it's the had to wear thing
that's not right, Marcel.

1275
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:32,920
I don't think.
I think it's the it's obvious

1276
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:40,480
for us that riggers should wear
harnesses, but there isn't a

1277
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:43,800
there isn't an OSHA inspector
standing there, say, or any

1278
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:47,360
other kind of inspector for that
matter saying you can't go up

1279
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,640
until you have your harness on.
Thankfully much of the industry

1280
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:57,400
has made that true, but I think
where I'm hung up on the thought

1281
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,080
is that it is a must do.
It's still not a must do.

1282
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,280
So does it need to be like or is
this sort of a carrot stick

1283
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:09,600
situation like, you know, do we
need hardcore rules and

1284
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:13,720
regulations and fines and things
like that or no, no.

1285
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:19,640
Well, I I I think we need
mechanisms to help speed along

1286
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,360
the transition which is still
moving at a snail's pace.

1287
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:27,520
But I would I would be cautious
about over regulation and over

1288
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,280
finding because then that may
stifle creativity to some extent

1289
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,400
we and that's probably going to
get some blowback from you

1290
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,520
saying that.
But I think it's important for

1291
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:43,240
us to design for safety, period.
It's important for us to behave

1292
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,640
safely in everything we attempt
to produce, not just for

1293
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,720
ourselves, but for our our band,
our crew and our audiences,

1294
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,520
period.
They must be first priority.

1295
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:57,600
One of the things the ESA did in
its very early days after we had

1296
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:01,920
a draft copy of the guide was we
went to Indiana to meet with

1297
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:06,160
Governor Mitch Daniels and his
team in the wake of the Indiana

1298
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,680
State Fair because they were
getting ready to enact some

1299
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:15,360
state regulation around live
shows in Indiana and they would

1300
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:19,640
have been crippling one.
The example that I use is the

1301
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,600
the closest audience member
would not have been allowed

1302
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,200
closer than the following radius
of the stage.

1303
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,320
So that meant that the closest
audience member would have been

1304
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,400
roughly in front.
Of 20th row or something, Yeah.

1305
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:35,160
Yeah.
So you know, we were, we were

1306
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:36,720
lucky enough to get an
invitation.

1307
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,160
We were lucky enough to have
some smart people with us who

1308
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:41,400
could actually speak at that
level because that's certainly

1309
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:45,320
not this old roadie.
And and state the case that look

1310
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,680
maybe it's best that the
industry try to solve these

1311
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:54,600
safety concerns on behalf of the
government because we know best

1312
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,280
how to produce the event and
that may not be your specialty.

1313
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:04,440
So we left this hour plus long
meeting with his with the

1314
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:08,160
governor and his people and we
got a handshake agreement that

1315
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,560
we would be able to go forward
with our work and return some

1316
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:14,520
results to him.
And and you know, try to speak

1317
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:18,200
on behalf of the industry about
how we become safer and and we

1318
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,040
did that and we produced this
first version of the safety

1319
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,040
guide.
And as you know, now we're also

1320
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:26,040
producing American National
Standards, which elevates

1321
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,080
guidance to standard and makes
it more of a should do.

1322
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,360
Yeah.
So I mean I guess the the

1323
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,560
challenge there for sure is if
you, if you put it in the hands

1324
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:40,840
of governors or of any kind of
legislator or whatever, we're

1325
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:45,360
going to end up with really
shows that have have lost a lot

1326
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:51,840
of excitement or they've become
worse by these regulations.

1327
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,440
Cuz these people don't
understand how to put on shows

1328
01:18:54,440 --> 01:18:56,800
and they don't understand
necessarily what the problem is.

1329
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:00,400
They just wanna throw, they
wanna put a fire extinguisher on

1330
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,400
every problem, right?
Including crowd management.

1331
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:06,000
Yeah, yeah.
I think there's some truth to

1332
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,520
that.
I think, you know, our business

1333
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,720
is to, for instance, in crowds
to study crowd behavior and

1334
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:15,040
figure out mechanisms to improve
crowd behavior and manage crowd

1335
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,440
behavior.
Our business is to put up shows

1336
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:19,600
and figure out mechanisms to
make sure that they don't fall

1337
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:22,000
down.
Our business is to manage people

1338
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:24,600
and to make sure that they can
do their job safely and helpful.

1339
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,200
And with health, that's our
business.

1340
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:28,480
It's not the government's
business.

1341
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,720
So and I think that we're not
the only example of of places

1342
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,840
where it's better if the
industry try to come to

1343
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:41,640
consensus and create its own
safety mechanisms versus trying

1344
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:46,400
to shoehorn something else into
our industry and and follow

1345
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:48,680
those rules.
The example there is, you know,

1346
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,480
while OSHA 10 and OSHA 30 are
important trainings to have,

1347
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:55,240
they don't really speak to our
Lexicon.

1348
01:19:55,240 --> 01:19:59,560
They don't speak to the kind of
work that I that we do in

1349
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:01,880
general.
The but the hazards are the

1350
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,480
same.
You know, working at height,

1351
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:07,040
working around electricity.
These these hazards we share

1352
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:10,120
with OSHA.
But you try to take someone

1353
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:14,760
whose only journey has been in
the back backstage space, they

1354
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:17,360
may have difficulty
understanding the language of

1355
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:21,400
OSHA that makes it unrelatable.
So you know one of the things

1356
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:24,640
the Event Safety Alliance is
working on is as has the IOTC

1357
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:29,280
isn't isn't entertainment
specific OSHA training where we

1358
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:31,720
use references that reply to our
workspace.

1359
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:34,000
Yeah.
Well, I mean another example

1360
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:39,760
would be the FDA controlling
entertainment lasers, you know,

1361
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:41,640
regulating.
I mean, there are dozens of

1362
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:43,800
those, right?
Yeah, I mean that to me has

1363
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,760
always just been a head
scratcher because we can put

1364
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:51,000
10,000 Watt moving lights, which
I don't know of one, but we

1365
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,760
could put a 10,000 moving moving
light with a beam this tight and

1366
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,480
blast it right into somebody's
eyes and burn holes in their

1367
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,520
retinas.
That's OK you know, but a but a

1368
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:05,360
10 Watt laser on a Pink Floyd
tribute band or whatever, you

1369
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,680
got to carry along, you know,
specialists for that.

1370
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,280
It's just stupid, you know?
So yeah.

1371
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:15,440
I've had an LD or two burn set
set backdrops on fire with those

1372
01:21:15,480 --> 01:21:17,240
those beams you described.
Yeah, yeah.

1373
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,760
Well, when the Clay Packy
Sharpie first came out, I

1374
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:22,680
remember somebody showing me at
one of the trade shows an

1375
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,000
Italian guy going, look, I can
light them my cigarette with the

1376
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:30,160
beam and I'm going damn, you
know, that could be problematic.

1377
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:34,840
So yeah, it's pretty wild.
Let me ask you this question.

1378
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,600
Well, first I got two big ones I
want to ask you because I know I

1379
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:40,600
can't keep you all day and these
are going to take a minute.

1380
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:46,320
First, what do you need to
besides money, let's say,

1381
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:51,720
Because obviously any
not-for-profit is is always

1382
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:56,240
raising money.
And certainly if I or or any of

1383
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:59,240
the things that I do, if I can
help with that in some way,

1384
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:02,480
just, you know pull me in and
and I'll try and help.

1385
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:07,960
But aside from money, like, what
are the things that you need to

1386
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:13,320
continue moving this ahead,
moving it forward, and making

1387
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:16,960
not only crews safer, but
audiences safer?

1388
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:23,840
I'm grateful for the question
and I'm going to go.

1389
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:26,480
I'm going to diverge for one
second, but then land the plane.

1390
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,800
We knew in the onset of the
Event Safety Alliance that our

1391
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:36,680
tone and tenor in the way we
addressed our industry's errors

1392
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:41,200
needed to be carrot, not stick.
Like if we came out of the gate

1393
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:43,200
as an organization and said you
can't do it like.

1394
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,440
That.
We would never have had any

1395
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:48,720
audience and we have always
recognized and still to this day

1396
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,840
recognized that, you know,
Indiana could happen to me, it

1397
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,360
could have happened to anybody
else out there.

1398
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,320
The state of the industry at the
time, the state of information

1399
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:02,600
flow, the state of being able to
talk, you know, as banned to

1400
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:07,040
authority, having jurisdiction
and and you know, have similar

1401
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:11,040
ideas about safety.
It just didn't exist at in a way

1402
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:15,880
that it does today.
And you know, so I think part of

1403
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:19,880
it is because we're not shaking
a stick for fear of losing

1404
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:23,320
audience, maybe we're not
getting as much traction as we

1405
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:25,440
could.
So what do we need as an

1406
01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:28,760
organization?
Well, at the, at the operational

1407
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:32,440
level, we need marketing help.
We need to be able to get the

1408
01:23:32,440 --> 01:23:37,360
word into places where it's not
currently we still go sit in

1409
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,480
rooms for our our safety round
table and things of that nature

1410
01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:42,160
where people have never heard of
us before.

1411
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:45,280
And that's because we don't have
a marketing budget and we don't

1412
01:23:45,280 --> 01:23:49,920
have the ability to be, as we're
the least sexy subject in all of

1413
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,600
the entertainment, who gives a
shit about us.

1414
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:55,800
But we're doing all the hard
work, right?

1415
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,240
So a lot of our support comes
from the insurance sector

1416
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,800
obviously because we're doing
the hard work for them and we're

1417
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,040
keeping their claims down, but
we're also trying to prove a

1418
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:09,560
negative.
So you know how do how does

1419
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:15,360
someone quantify the work of the
ESA has had great impact on

1420
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:18,920
reducing harm at live events.
How do you quantify that?

1421
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:21,880
Because you know if you're doing
the job well nothing's happened.

1422
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:25,880
Well go measure nothing.
And it's a real challenge for

1423
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,400
us.
You know what are some of what

1424
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:33,440
we see as recognition of our
work is we go to events, we see

1425
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:39,200
our weather decision matrix
which we created in 2012 on the

1426
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:40,800
stage.
We see it in the production

1427
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:42,800
office.
We see, there's no question that

1428
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:45,760
that's the matrix that we
designed and and helped propel

1429
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:48,680
out in the industry.
We see language referencing the

1430
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,880
event safety Alliance and
riders, which is part of how we

1431
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:53,640
know that we're making an
impact.

1432
01:24:55,800 --> 01:25:00,600
You know, we would love to have
an event safety kind of like UL

1433
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,840
listing so that you knew you
were with a competent vendor and

1434
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:06,520
that we could set a bar of what
competency.

1435
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:08,960
Looks like ESA approved.
Or whatever.

1436
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,000
Yeah, exactly.
We we, we've had that in the

1437
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:13,800
back of our head since, you
know, the beginning.

1438
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:18,160
But it's, it's a big lift.
And who wants the responsibility

1439
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:23,720
of being the accrediting body
right we're we're there's it's

1440
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,200
an all volunteer organization
and people contribute when and

1441
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:30,600
what they can.
But what what what's the other

1442
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:32,960
question about everybody who's
contributing is everybody's

1443
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:37,680
passionate about the industry.
We also need people who can

1444
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:41,000
write we you know we're
rewriting the safety guide to to

1445
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,960
improve it for the next
generation.

1446
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,800
We're writing American National
standards that need people on

1447
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,720
those committees to help make
sure that the work we're doing

1448
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,640
is actually representative of
the broad definition of live

1449
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,120
events, which, no, let's not
forget, it's not just music

1450
01:25:56,120 --> 01:26:02,120
touring, and it's hard to get
people to participate,

1451
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,720
especially as volunteers in the
organization.

1452
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:06,880
It's a very shallow pool that we
have to pull from.

1453
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:09,040
Yeah.
One one thing I would like to do

1454
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:12,880
is, and I've got Sarah here so
she can get it all put together,

1455
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:18,320
is we'd like to become, we'd
like you to be a sponsor for no

1456
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:21,120
money of our podcast.
So in other words, we'll read

1457
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,600
promos on the event.
Safety allowance.

1458
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:27,360
Alliance allowance.
Yeah, give me money.

1459
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:32,480
We'll, we'll read promos for
various podcasts.

1460
01:26:32,480 --> 01:26:36,200
We'll talk about the alliance,
We'll talk about some of your,

1461
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:40,280
you know, basically your team
can just refresh content for us

1462
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:42,920
every month or two.
And we'll we'll read different

1463
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:46,520
things and stuff and you know,
if there's anything to say,

1464
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:50,800
we'll have anyone from your team
on at any time and talk about it

1465
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,240
and promote it.
Cuz like you said, you know, if

1466
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:57,000
you have no marketing budget, it
is, you know, it's not a topic

1467
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:01,680
that people want to hear about
or talk about so much until like

1468
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:05,640
your best advertising
unfortunately is a disaster, you

1469
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:09,320
know, And one thing I did want
to mention, so we keep talking

1470
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:11,280
about Indiana when Indiana
happened.

1471
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:13,800
Can you just explain for a
second what we're talking about

1472
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:17,360
in Indiana?
Yeah, yeah, that's, I'm glad you

1473
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:20,840
did that.
You know, as I said, this could

1474
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,400
have happened to any one of us.
But the premise is at the

1475
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,440
Indiana State Fair there was a
a, a, a very popular country act

1476
01:27:29,480 --> 01:27:34,080
about to take the stage and
interestingly, simultaneously

1477
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:37,320
about 30 miles up the road or 30
minutes.

1478
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,280
I get the, I get the details
confused.

1479
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:44,200
There was a Symphony taking
place and they saw this incoming

1480
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:47,960
weather front and evacuated the
Symphony and everybody got into

1481
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:50,600
the shelter safe shelter and
nobody got hurt.

1482
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:53,280
And you know, maybe some
components of the Symphony might

1483
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:57,360
have been damaged.
Well, at the Indiana State Fair,

1484
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:03,320
a DJ took the stage and pointed
to the clouds that were coming

1485
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:06,080
towards the stage and said,
well, we're hoping for the best.

1486
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:09,320
And as you can see there's a
weather front back there, but we

1487
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:12,040
think we're going to be OK.
So stand by and in just a few

1488
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:17,040
minutes band's going to take the
stage and he walked off the

1489
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:20,560
stage and just a few minutes
went by and the gust front,

1490
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:23,200
something that we, you know,
unless you've been to our

1491
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:25,840
weather training by the way we
do weather training as well.

1492
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:30,400
You might not know what a gust
front is or the fact that they

1493
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:33,440
typically don't show up on
radar, but they're very deadly

1494
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:36,920
and they're a huge super high
winds.

1495
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:42,720
So the gust front blew through
while State Fair artist,

1496
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,240
promoter, venue were all trying
to make a decision and who do

1497
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:48,640
they communicate the decision
to.

1498
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:52,760
So they they they didn't get the
decision in time.

1499
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:57,360
The gust front blew through,
blew the stage over the stage

1500
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:01,440
fell and killed 7 people.
One of them was a follow spot

1501
01:29:01,440 --> 01:29:04,080
operator up in the truck, up in
the storm.

1502
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:10,400
And you know when we teach that
moment or when I'm talking about

1503
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,360
that moment and trying to teach
it, I'm often asked you know,

1504
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:15,840
what caused people to die Or I
asked the question to the

1505
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:18,920
audience, you know what caused
people to die at the Indiana

1506
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,280
State Fair.
And very often the response is,

1507
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:26,360
well, the stage structure wasn't
safe or weather right.

1508
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:30,400
And and while those things are
true in my view, my personal

1509
01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:34,080
view, what caused people to die
in Indiana was the lack of an

1510
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:38,040
actionable plan.
And there's a positive to that.

1511
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,160
The fact that it was the plan
that could have saved lives

1512
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,400
means we can do something about
it, because if it was solely the

1513
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,080
weather or solely the structure,
it's harder to do something

1514
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:48,360
about.
That So what would you do?

1515
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:53,360
In in what way?
How do we solve it?

1516
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:56,560
In retrospect, what would you
have done in that situation?

1517
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:01,280
So what we what we teach, what
the Event Safety Alliance

1518
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:04,480
teacher, what the output of our
work has yielded for folks to

1519
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:11,000
teach or learn on their own, is
as as the person with the duty

1520
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:15,240
of care for an artist.
I need to have a weather plan or

1521
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:18,840
a adverse event plan.
You know an adverse crisis plan.

1522
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:22,280
And I need to have communicated
that through my team, and my

1523
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:25,760
team needs to know what to do
when we shoot the gun and say

1524
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,840
it's time to go.
So there's there's my duty to

1525
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,720
there's the the adult in charges
duty to have a plan for the

1526
01:30:33,720 --> 01:30:36,240
things that that person's
responsible for.

1527
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:40,200
It's the duty of the venue and
therefore in some instances the

1528
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:43,320
promoter to have a plan for the
audience and the things that the

1529
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,880
venue's responsible for their
duty of care.

1530
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,000
And it's the duty of the
authorities, police, fire and

1531
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:53,600
medical, to also have a plan for
what to do with all those souls

1532
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:56,680
on site.
Those plans need to be

1533
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,000
communicated to each other.
So that and and there needs to

1534
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,600
be an overriding who, whose plan
do we follow?

1535
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,440
Right.
So I I'm going to follow my

1536
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:11,160
right exactly.
And and and in the event of you

1537
01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:15,920
know me being at a host state, a
host position, host a venue and

1538
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:19,080
they don't have a plan.
I would argue that mine's going

1539
01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:21,560
to take the place of nothing.
It's going to be better than

1540
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:23,160
nothing.
And we're going to follow mine

1541
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,920
where the venue has a plan,
we're going to follow Venue's

1542
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:28,720
plan.
Or when the staging company, for

1543
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:32,640
instance, has a threshold for
weather that they're worried

1544
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:34,480
about, we're going to follow the
staging companies.

1545
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:39,320
But what happens now more often
than not as a result of Indiana

1546
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:42,960
and the result of our work and
and and in the continuing

1547
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:48,160
propellants of our work is
conveyance of our work is more

1548
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:52,360
people now understand that they
should be considering an action

1549
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:56,760
plan in the event of bad things
happening and know what to do

1550
01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:01,640
when those bad things happen.
Does that, does that exist at

1551
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:03,280
every production manager or tour
manager?

1552
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:05,440
No.
Does every production manager or

1553
01:32:05,440 --> 01:32:08,000
tour manager where it exists,
communicate those things down

1554
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:09,960
through the team and practicing
down through the team?

1555
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:12,680
No.
Our workforce isn't set up like

1556
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:15,040
that.
But we have the foundational

1557
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:20,680
building blocks to be better.
And we just need to continue to

1558
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:24,800
remind everybody that, gosh,
making shows is fun, but going

1559
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:27,720
home after you're done is, yeah.
Of course.

1560
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,560
So very specifically, very
specifically though to that

1561
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:36,480
event, would you have gotten on
a microphone and said everyone

1562
01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:41,640
needs to back away from the
stage or what types of things

1563
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:46,120
might have been done?
Well, OK, so.

1564
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:48,040
If it were to happen today, what
would you do?

1565
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:54,360
Yeah, well so if it happens
today the in all circumstances

1566
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,040
being what they should be in our
regard the event safety

1567
01:32:57,040 --> 01:32:59,880
alliances regard there is a
weather action plan that has

1568
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:05,360
specific non ambiguous trigger
points in it that says when

1569
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:09,400
lightning is occurring within 68
depends on the speed of the

1570
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:13,080
storm, miles of the venue, you
will evacuate the audience to

1571
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:15,720
safe shelter.
When there is a threat of a

1572
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:19,160
significant storm of these
characteristics that is within

1573
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:23,480
12 miles of the venue you will
evacuate people to safe shelter.

1574
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:27,400
So in today's world that
circumstance occurring again,

1575
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:31,520
there is a plan that every all
of the stakeholders have agreed

1576
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,120
to.
The trigger gets met, storm is

1577
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:37,120
12 miles away or lightning is 6,
you know whatever whatever the

1578
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:40,760
triggers are and then the
subsequent action to that

1579
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:44,920
trigger takes place and someone
stands on stage and says, ladies

1580
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:48,040
and gentlemen, unfortunately we
have a storm in proximate in our

1581
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:50,440
proximity here at the moment
that is threatening to come over

1582
01:33:50,440 --> 01:33:52,120
the site.
We need you to leave the site

1583
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:53,800
right now and go to safe
shelter.

1584
01:33:55,040 --> 01:33:58,840
Those steps occur and it's said
without ambiguity and it's said

1585
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:02,680
without, well, maybe the store
maybe, you know, that's how we

1586
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:05,680
would react to it today.
And would seven people be alive?

1587
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:10,880
I'd like to think yes.
Yeah.

1588
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:15,480
So were there also changes to
the outdoor staging

1589
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:19,760
manufacturers?
Were there additional rules or

1590
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:24,040
or whatever you want to call it?
Was the bar set a bit higher as

1591
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:28,680
far as wind loads and those
types of things?

1592
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:37,920
The temporary demountable
structure standard that exists

1593
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:44,480
prior to that that existed prior
to that day has been rewritten.

1594
01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:47,280
Not that it was bad work to
begin with, but it was rewritten

1595
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,640
to include additional and I'm
not going to be able to quote

1596
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,520
them, additional considerations
for building an outdoor

1597
01:34:54,520 --> 01:35:01,240
structure The the attention to
making sure you're outdoor sorry

1598
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:06,240
for competent providers.
The attention to the detail for

1599
01:35:06,240 --> 01:35:10,280
making sure your outdoor
structure is as per the

1600
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:14,880
specifications, built correctly
and monitored correctly is

1601
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:19,640
greater now by those high end
providers than it's ever been.

1602
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,720
I'd like to think and and it's
probably always been high.

1603
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:26,680
But now we're really meticulous
I think in those providers to

1604
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:34,360
make sure to double check the
the the standard that exists to

1605
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:38,560
ensure that the stage structure
is able to withstand X amount of

1606
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:44,480
wind, what the protocol is if
that wind is coming and when to

1607
01:35:44,480 --> 01:35:48,840
evacuate, when to leave the
stage that is more prevalent and

1608
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:51,800
more prevalently communicated
than it's ever been.

1609
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:56,760
We all know that a falling stage
has zero value.

1610
01:35:56,760 --> 01:36:00,400
It's an insurance claim if
nobody gets hurt, so who cares?

1611
01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:03,120
Don't stand around with a fire
extinguger like I did, trying to

1612
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:06,120
protect the stage.
If the winds are going to exceed

1613
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:09,400
X miles an hour, go to safe
shelter.

1614
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:11,920
Let the freaking thing fall,
right.

1615
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:13,960
Same thing with the PA, Same
thing with the LED.

1616
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:16,920
That's hard to do.
It's a hard decision to make.

1617
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:19,120
It's hard to see your equipment
get damaged.

1618
01:36:19,480 --> 01:36:24,040
But at the same time, you made
the right defensible decision to

1619
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:27,880
get yourself and the other
humans around that thing into a

1620
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:31,440
safe place, and the rest of it
is an insurance claim.

1621
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:34,520
Yeah.
That I think we're doing better

1622
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:37,600
than ever before.
Do you think, and this is just

1623
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:42,880
an observation, I know nothing,
but are LED screens sort of the

1624
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:44,880
culprit?
Because I know like at least

1625
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:50,040
early on they weren't taking
wind loads into consideration or

1626
01:36:50,040 --> 01:36:54,520
or you know the fact that they
were, they were more of a a like

1627
01:36:54,520 --> 01:37:00,880
we went from mesh sides and
backs on on these stages to, you

1628
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:05,680
know, solid LED screens and that
creates sort of a wind sail,

1629
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:12,280
right?
I'm not an engineer, but I I

1630
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:18,720
know one or two and I know that
that nowadays we are referring

1631
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:23,800
to engineering calculations by
any.

1632
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:26,320
Again, any competent provider is
referring to engineering

1633
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:28,000
calculations on everything that
they're doing.

1634
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:34,120
Yeah, I don't know that going
from a 70% scram on the back of

1635
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:39,040
the stage to a blow through LED
while some of which now have 50%

1636
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:43,040
transparency in them from a wind
standpoint is the thing that

1637
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:46,920
makes the difference.
Same with PA when A when a when

1638
01:37:46,920 --> 01:37:50,760
a suspended load starts
swinging, it's transferring

1639
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,880
dynamic load into the Truss.
You know is is the trust now

1640
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:58,360
swinging because it's got slack
and it's guy wires?

1641
01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:01,920
Who knows?
And in every instance it's

1642
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:04,800
different.
Those things, I will say, are

1643
01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:08,360
calculable.
They're monitorable, and there's

1644
01:38:08,360 --> 01:38:13,800
an ability to write a plan
around what to do with them and

1645
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:18,280
to be more informed about what
our safety policy should be.

1646
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:20,480
Because those things are in the
air.

1647
01:38:20,880 --> 01:38:23,280
There's no, you know, everybody
looks for what's the answer?

1648
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:25,560
Do I lower the PA or do I raise
the PA?

1649
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:26,920
Do I lower the screen?
Do I raise?

1650
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:29,600
There is no one answer.
It depends.

1651
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:32,840
It depends on the structure.
It depends on what your goal is.

1652
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:34,520
I can tell you one thing for
sure.

1653
01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:36,880
Get out of the way in case it
falls.

1654
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:39,280
Yeah, Don't be there.
Probably the best.

1655
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:40,960
It's just a piece of equipment.
Yeah.

1656
01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:44,000
Yeah.
My, my very last question I'm

1657
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:45,360
going to ask you is another big
one.

1658
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:51,120
What keeps you awake at night?
You know, like there's so many

1659
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:54,640
components to what you're
talking about with this safety

1660
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:56,360
stuff.
You know, there's equipment

1661
01:38:56,360 --> 01:39:02,440
safety, terrorism attacks, you
know, which have again become

1662
01:39:02,440 --> 01:39:06,520
much more sort of frontal lobe
at this point with what just

1663
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:10,160
happened in Israel.
And then the other thing that I

1664
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:15,120
think plays a role in all of
this is the size of the shows

1665
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:18,120
now.
Like, it's very common that

1666
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:22,360
there are stadium shows with,
you know, instead of 15,000

1667
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:27,320
people, it's 70,000 people.
The the rigs are massive.

1668
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:33,280
There's just more and more and
more stuff being hung and flown

1669
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:38,200
and zipping across above the
audience's heads and drone shows

1670
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:40,920
at concerts.
And like, there's just so many

1671
01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:44,080
more components than there used
to be, where it was just, you

1672
01:39:44,080 --> 01:39:48,480
know, an arena floor with a
stage at one end with some PA

1673
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:51,520
and and some lights hanging, and
that was about it.

1674
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:56,680
Now we've got so many other
components to it, but what is it

1675
01:39:56,680 --> 01:40:00,800
that that probably like from a
safety standpoint, if you're

1676
01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:07,600
responsible for audiences and
performers and, you know, cruise

1677
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:11,160
safety, what keeps you awake at
night?

1678
01:40:15,480 --> 01:40:21,200
I told you it was a big one.
The the the short answer to what

1679
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:25,760
keeps me awake at night is the
possibility that my children

1680
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:31,480
will go to a show of any kind
and be in harm's way and not

1681
01:40:31,480 --> 01:40:38,520
come home.
I don't believe that scale is an

1682
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:42,480
issue in this instance.
I think those who big, who build

1683
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:48,200
large scale shows are more
inclined to use the right

1684
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:51,400
mechanisms and use the right
engineering and to double,

1685
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:55,440
triple, quadruple check the work
that they're doing to ensure

1686
01:40:55,440 --> 01:40:58,720
that nothing goes wrong.
Bigger the boom, the greater the

1687
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:03,400
checking.
I don't think scale represents

1688
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:08,920
an industry wide issue.
I think under informed

1689
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:13,080
leadership is the gap.
And that's not to say that

1690
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:18,880
leadership is intentionally
being risky.

1691
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:23,320
It's to say that the, the, the
juxtaposition of trying to get

1692
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:28,440
the gig, getting the gig, make
happen regardless of scale.

1693
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:32,560
And add to that the element of
I've got to make sure

1694
01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:36,640
everybody's safe, I've got to
make sure that the show's safe,

1695
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:38,400
I've got to make sure all these
other things are safe.

1696
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:43,160
Those two things, while not
directly in conflict with each

1697
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:45,120
other, they're in conflict with
each other.

1698
01:41:45,480 --> 01:41:49,400
Young production people
specifically are coming in

1699
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:53,040
trying to cut their teeth,
trying to keep the job, trying

1700
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:55,640
to succeed, trying to keep the
team going.

1701
01:41:55,640 --> 01:42:01,600
And the priority of of all of
those things to safety is

1702
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:05,760
significantly higher in some
instances, I would guess.

1703
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:08,680
So I don't think the problem is
scale.

1704
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:12,760
I don't think the problem is
necessarily manufacture unless

1705
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:14,240
you're taking things out of
territories.

1706
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:17,880
We know that don't have a good
safety record to build your

1707
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:22,440
stage.
I think the problem is we we are

1708
01:42:22,440 --> 01:42:27,880
not yet asking our leaders to be
informed about safety, to be

1709
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:31,200
educated about safety.
We're not requiring these

1710
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:33,720
things.
You know, you could have, you

1711
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:38,040
could be an adult in charge of a
tour or an event and set off

1712
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:43,840
$1,000,000 worth of pyro and not
even know what a fuse is and or

1713
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:46,480
not even know what the safety
requirements are around the

1714
01:42:46,480 --> 01:42:49,960
pyro.
And I think that's the leader's

1715
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,080
job.
I think it's the adult in

1716
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:58,200
charge's job to understand
what's at risk by the way you

1717
01:42:58,200 --> 01:43:02,920
carry the legal duty of care to
ensure that everything is safe.

1718
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:05,560
I didn't learn that until after
Indiana.

1719
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:07,600
I didn't know.
I was just breezing along as a

1720
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:11,480
production manager, not a care
in the world, until Indiana,

1721
01:43:11,480 --> 01:43:15,680
when it turns out I have the
legal duty of care to ensure

1722
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:18,480
that nothing goes wrong.
Which means if shit goes wrong,

1723
01:43:18,480 --> 01:43:21,160
I'm going to be sitting in front
of a judge trying to answer why

1724
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:23,240
I didn't enact safety policy.
Wow.

1725
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:26,360
Yeah, I think the gap is
leadership.

1726
01:43:26,360 --> 01:43:28,160
I don't think the gap is that
interesting.

1727
01:43:28,480 --> 01:43:33,560
But you know how like, and I'm
sure you ask this to yourself

1728
01:43:33,560 --> 01:43:36,560
every morning, You know, how how
does that shift happen?

1729
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:42,160
Aside from just checking every
disaster box that one could

1730
01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:44,440
think of.
So you know, when did a State

1731
01:43:44,440 --> 01:43:47,120
Fair box checked?
We're not going to make that

1732
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:52,880
exact same mistake again, you
know, God, I hate to say it,

1733
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:57,160
even, you know, paratroopers
flying into an EDM festival.

1734
01:43:57,440 --> 01:44:00,400
Next time we see parachutes
coming into an EDM festival,

1735
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:03,080
we're going to question that
that might be a problem.

1736
01:44:03,480 --> 01:44:07,160
And you know what?
You do.

1737
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:09,840
I don't know if there's rules
being created in the background

1738
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:12,640
by guys like Eric Stewart who
are saying, you know, we shoot

1739
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:15,200
them down or something.
Like, I don't have any idea.

1740
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:18,520
Yeah, I.
I think, I think the challenge

1741
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:22,120
for production people is how
much of that lies, lies in the

1742
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:23,680
hands of the production.
Person that's true to.

1743
01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:26,800
That yeah, that's handled by a
guy like Eric Stewart, right?

1744
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:30,280
Yeah.
So I I would argue that that

1745
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:32,560
there's a great place to Start
learning about it.

1746
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,320
Absolutely, yeah.
That and that's the event safety

1747
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:40,240
guide and that you know,
reasonable adults in charge,

1748
01:44:40,240 --> 01:44:42,400
production managers, term
manager, whatever the role title

1749
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:45,520
is project manager.
Reasonable adults in charge

1750
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:49,640
should see the necessity to be
informed about safety at the

1751
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:53,280
very least to be able to spot
risk at the very least and then

1752
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:56,680
know what to do with that risk.
We do things that are risky and

1753
01:44:56,680 --> 01:44:59,920
that's OK.
It's OK to have risk providing

1754
01:44:59,920 --> 01:45:03,960
you have the mechanisms to not
let that risk become a

1755
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:07,080
catastrophic in that it's OK to
have fireworks.

1756
01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:09,720
In other words, it's not OK to
let that fireworks land on fire

1757
01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:11,200
in front of an audience member.
Right.

1758
01:45:13,720 --> 01:45:18,360
So I I think while daunting, and
I was you know, our first

1759
01:45:18,480 --> 01:45:21,680
keynote speaker at the first
event safety conference was John

1760
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:25,600
Barelick, the part for the
Station nightclub fire where 100

1761
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:28,000
people died in the doorway of.
That nightclub fire.

1762
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:31,080
And somebody irresponsibly set
off fireworks there.

1763
01:45:33,440 --> 01:45:36,720
And he, you know, by the time he
was done, couple hours into it,

1764
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:39,160
you were like, I don't want to
work in this business anymore

1765
01:45:39,600 --> 01:45:43,400
because he was able to draw, he
was able to connect the dots to

1766
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:45,800
responsibility, to places he
never would have thought their

1767
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:50,040
responsibility.
So if nothing else motivates you

1768
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:53,040
as an adult in charge but to
cover your own ass, then let

1769
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:57,520
that be your motivation and
learn about the things that you

1770
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:00,440
have responsibility for.
You don't need to know how to

1771
01:46:00,440 --> 01:46:02,200
take the paratroopers out of the
sky.

1772
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:04,520
You don't need to know how to
avert a bombing.

1773
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:07,080
You don't need to know about
hostile vehicle mitigation

1774
01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:11,560
measures around an outdoor show.
You need to know how to produce

1775
01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:14,280
your show safely, and you need
to make sure you need to know

1776
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:16,360
how to spot that.
You have the Eric Stewart's of

1777
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:20,680
the world on your side, looking
at all the things that are a

1778
01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:22,720
different duty of care.
Well, yeah.

1779
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:28,200
And again, there should be a a
sort of concerted plan where

1780
01:46:28,200 --> 01:46:31,040
like you said before like you
know everyone's got a plan,

1781
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:34,760
let's get together and figure
out whose plan sort of takes top

1782
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:38,040
priority on this and and how
they all relate to each other

1783
01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:40,920
etcetera.
But I think just getting it top

1784
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:46,760
of mind, it being safety and and
you know, your responsibility to

1785
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:49,080
keep audience members safe and
all of that kind of stuff.

1786
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:54,000
Getting that top of mind and and
not just we've been doing this

1787
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:55,680
years.
We've never killed anyone.

1788
01:46:55,680 --> 01:46:59,240
You know, that's right.
I mean that's just silly.

1789
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:02,200
You know, it it thank God.
Airlines don't just say, well,

1790
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:05,720
you know, we have way less
accidents than cars, so we don't

1791
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:09,440
have to fix anything, you know,
but they're much louder, more

1792
01:47:09,440 --> 01:47:12,400
catastrophic accidents typically
than car accidents.

1793
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:16,200
Yeah, but all of our work, all
of our work at the Event Safety

1794
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:20,160
Alliance has been derived by
other examples.

1795
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:21,920
We're not making it up out of
thin air.

1796
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,200
We we've got corollaries to
construction.

1797
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:26,880
We've got corollaries to
airlines, you know, to medical,

1798
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:30,960
you name it.
Because we, we just don't want

1799
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:32,440
to repeat the same accidents,
right.

1800
01:47:32,440 --> 01:47:34,880
And we want to inform our
constituents.

1801
01:47:35,120 --> 01:47:39,440
We've written now six American
released now six American

1802
01:47:39,440 --> 01:47:42,280
National standards.
You know, if you need a place to

1803
01:47:42,280 --> 01:47:45,280
start, go to the Event Safety
alliance.org website and look

1804
01:47:45,280 --> 01:47:47,360
under guidance and you'll see
that we've got one on rigging,

1805
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:50,920
one on structures that we talked
about right, One on fire

1806
01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:54,600
requirements, one on event
safety, event security, weather

1807
01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:57,800
preparedness, crowd management.
It's right there.

1808
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:01,920
You know, Are these standards
necessarily going to change the

1809
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:02,760
world?
No.

1810
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:05,560
But if you read them and you
understand them, they will help

1811
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:10,360
you avert problems.
And without them we can't expect

1812
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,800
to elevate those who work in our
business.

1813
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:16,720
So we've got reference material
now that that Stan has stood the

1814
01:48:16,720 --> 01:48:21,800
test of a decade and and a peer
and peer review And it's no, it

1815
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:26,320
is a starting point, nowhere
near the finish point, you know,

1816
01:48:26,360 --> 01:48:29,400
and things like I, I, I can't
even speak about what happened

1817
01:48:29,400 --> 01:48:32,240
in Israel.
But things like that, like those

1818
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:36,560
are what we refer to as Black
Swan events like like Vegas and

1819
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:40,880
Manchester, but they're
occurring with greater frequency

1820
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:44,040
which makes them scary and it
makes us overwhelmed as

1821
01:48:44,040 --> 01:48:46,080
production people.
How do I protect against those

1822
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:48,880
things?
You know, it's really not our

1823
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:53,080
job to worry about those things,
and that's not to be dismissive

1824
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:58,040
of them, but it's like do your
job right, like the the the

1825
01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:01,400
Israeli Defense Force, That's
their job to prevent those sort

1826
01:49:01,400 --> 01:49:04,080
of things from happening.
Yours is to make sure that if

1827
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:07,920
that trigger, if that trigger
moment occurs, your team knows

1828
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:10,520
what to do and where to go.
Keep your teams safe.

1829
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:13,040
Yeah, yeah, No.
And unfortunately, they're going

1830
01:49:13,040 --> 01:49:14,880
to keep happening these types of
events.

1831
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:18,000
And unfortunately we're a big
target because when you're

1832
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:22,880
looking to cause maximum
emotional impact and fear, you

1833
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:25,360
know you go to the biggest
crowds of people having the most

1834
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:27,920
fun because you want to change
our lifestyle, right?

1835
01:49:27,920 --> 01:49:31,920
Like that's the whole thing is
to you can't be happy, you know?

1836
01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:35,320
And so anyways Jim, thank thank
you so much for jumping on and

1837
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,040
doing this.
I've, I've learned a bunch.

1838
01:49:38,560 --> 01:49:41,920
Whoever on your team would be
the right person to communicate

1839
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:44,560
with us as far as marketing
materials or whatever.

1840
01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:48,360
If they can just get in touch
with Sarah or Sarah will try and

1841
01:49:48,360 --> 01:49:51,320
get in touch with them.
You should have.

1842
01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:55,560
Her e-mail address.
It's producer geezesofgears.com

1843
01:49:57,000 --> 01:49:59,080
and again, thank you so much for
doing it.

1844
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:00,360
I appreciate it.
It's been fun.

1845
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:03,040
Marcel, I appreciate you taking
the time with me.

1846
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:04,800
That's great.
I'm so grateful.

1847
01:50:05,080 --> 01:50:06,360
All right, great.
Have a good one.

1848
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:21,240
See you
None.