#221 - Lighting Designer / Director - Matt Guminski

0:03 Well, hello and thank you for joining me today on Geeses of Gear Episode #221, Two Days Podcast is brought to you by Stratum Productions. Stratum understands that successful events hinge on flawless execution. With years of experience in the audio visual industry, Stratum Productions specializes in providing event planners with cutting edge solutions that seamlessly blend technology and creativity. From intimate boardroom meetings to sprawling conventions, they're committed to delivering experiences that resonate and leave a lasting impact on audiences of all sizes. Stratum Productions truly do stand out above the rest when it comes to event production.

0:53 To learn more about what Stratum does and who they are as a company, please visit stratumpro.com. And also today I would like to give an honorable mention to a sort of non sponsor sponsor. They are a sponsor in that they're a friend of the show and have provided a great service to the industry. So of course I'm talking about my favorite coffee company, Coffee Cult Coffee with AK Cult with AK and you can visit coffeecult.com and order our own Geezers grind which is our own custom blend that was done for us by Coffee Cult. And every purchase of Coffee Cult Geezers Grind provides a benefit to the industry.

1:41 In that Coffee Cult, have graciously given up the proceeds on orders to donate that money to Roby backstage.com I'm sorry, Roby backstage thereisno.com. And that money then goes to help people in our industry who either are sick, injured, or just in need. And so it goes to a great 'cause. But it's also an excellent, excellent coffee. And if you want to learn more about Coffee Cult, you can watch a recent episode that we did with Jamie Mardis, the CEO and founder of Coffee Cult. Pretty interesting stuff. I learned a lot about coffee and the coffee I'm drinking and why I like it.

2:21 And so yeah, you get not only a good feeling in that you've given to a charity that helps our industry, but you also get a great cup of coffee. So please visit coffeecult.com and search for geezers grind and you will not be dissatisfied. Thank you so much and we are back here. So I'm looking forward to episode 221 today and I'll tell you a little bit more about that in a couple of minutes. But first a bit of news from the last week or so. First of all, a recent guest on our show, Martin Thomas, Lighting designer, production manager, super great guy, got married here in Florida in Central Florida over the weekend and I was supposed to be at his wedding with Missy and unfortunately I thought I had to miss it.

3:13 And then by the time I realized I could probably shuffle my schedule and get myself there, it was too late. They weren't able to change the numbers and so I had to miss it. So I'm bummed. I saw the pictures, they were great. I I I've just heard really cool things about the wedding from Howard Ungerleider, who was there, and Cosmo who was there. So yeah, I missed it. I'm bummed. And it happens. Also, last week, Chauvet opened their new building here in South Florida and it's a great space. It happens to be right next door to Roby's facility here in South Florida. It's kind of becoming a bit of a Gaza Strip down there with with Chauvet, Roby, Martin I think still has a facility down here.

4:03 Calculation of course has their facility here in South Florida. So yeah, it's it's definitely, you know moving like heaven or hell depending on which way you want to look at it down here in South Florida. But really nice building. It was a, it was a great little party that they had. Albert Chauvet of course was there very proud and they had a band. They had some food and also lots and lots of designers. And so I got to see a couple of recent people from the podcast who were on the podcast, Emily, who was just on a few weeks ago I think, or a couple of weeks ago. She was there, Funny thing, first time I've ever met Emily in person, so I've known her since before. COVID, I think, with all the zoom calls we had and all kinds of stuff, but never met in person, so it was really cool. Cosmo, of course was there as well and yeah, some other people too.

5:01 So Corey, Corey was there. So yeah, it was fun. It was cool. Nice opening. What else has happened in the last week or two Again, some of the the guests from our our podcast again Cosmo. His name keeps popping up but he won Lighting Designer of the Year at the Live Production Summit which happened a couple weeks ago I think in Palm Springs. And so congratulations to Cosmo, Very deserving lighting designer, very busy lighting designer. If his axe could stay out there. This is the problem. When you have older acts I guess they start, they stop, they start, they stop. And so congratulations to Cosmo again. Nobody deserves it more.

5:44 The guy works his ass off and and just a super guy and great designer. Very talented and very close relation to Cosmo, one of his employers Gateway Productions one video company of the year. So that was another interesting one. And again past guest of the show lots of other friends won awards there. I think upstaging might have got trucking company. I don't have them in front of me. Sorry. And Speaking of awards, another friend of the show and recent recent podcast recording, Rob Koenig from Metallica, of course won the Nook Schoenfeld Lighting Designer of the Year Parnelli Award at the NAMM show this past weekend. So congratulations to Rob again, deserves it heavily. It was a toughly contested category this year, some really great designers in there.

6:37 And so for Rob to pull that out was huge. Congratulations. And Speaking of the NAMM show, yeah, a lot of people attended of course from our industry. I know I saw a lot of booths there, companies from our industry. I think Martin had a booth elation did Chauvet did, not sure who else, but of course ACT. I think it was the first time they showed up with another, I think. I don't think we've announced them yet, but they're coming. PK Sound is coming on as a sponsor. So PK Sound for the first time showing at a Nam show with ACT. They were together at LDI, but that's the lighting show more than a sound show, of course. Sorry to the folks from LDI that I said that. But so anyways, yeah, I mean, I heard it was a pretty good show. It was obviously well attended.

7:28 Nam always is, You know, it's a weird show always because you have musicians walking around looking at guitars and drums and everything. There's not. It's a musician show and a music store show more than it is a lighting show or even a professional sound show. Although sound is much more closely tied to Nam than lighting is. Even though as a lighting vendor I've been going to Nam since the 90s. I I remember doing Nam show booths, you know, in the early, early 90s with Trackman and Martin. And so you can't really say it's not a lighting show, but it's really not a lighting show. Like if you have 100,000 attendees at Nam, there's probably 2000 people that are interested or 5000 people that are interested in lighting and the rest are. And I'm sure I'm getting those numbers wrong so I should just shut up.

8:19 And then last on shows. ISE is this week in Barcelona. That has been a massively growing show over the last few years especially. It's always been a good show, but over the last, I think since just before COVID, maybe 20/17/18 is when it really started booming and now it's just a massive show. I think it's a lot bigger than Plaza, if I'm guessing correctly. Again, I'm probably stepping in poop now and saying the wrong thing, but it's a great show. It's a big show. I wish I was there, but unfortunately I have to work and can't run around to trade shows my whole life. So on to today's guest we have coming up Matt Kaminski.

8:59 So Matt is a good friend, great guy, lots to talk about with Matt. Matt is a Boston, MA native and resident of Astoria, NY. He is a lighting and production designer, lighting director, programmer, and owner of MG Lighting Design. Matt holds ABFA in Lighting Design from Boston University. Throughout Matt's career, he has worked for various styles and sizes of shows, including theater, dance, industrial, corporate and concert design and direction. So that's a lot and I'm looking forward to talking with them. So let's bring on Matt Mattie, GLD. How are you, my friend?

9:43 And it's funny that I should call you that, because everyone knows that that's your Instagram handle is Mattie GLD. And you know, for the longest time I thought, why the hell does he call himself Maddie Gold? Like what is that? You know you're not the first person. Why does he call himself Maddie Gold? And then finally, one day I went, duh, you know, but. Well, that goes. That goes way back to college. I was like getting ready to graduate from college and I was like I need AI, need a outside of you know my college e-mail address. And I was like what'll sound cool And it this is way before you know you did your first name dot last name and it's and it started on Hotmail like that's how long ago.

10:28 Oh. My goodness, so. Well yeah, it just kind of just kind of stuck. I hate to tell you about my so long ago goes before e-mail. There was no e-mail when when my long ago happened. So you're still a young and, but no the whole. Well, thank you. Yeah, the whole Instagram handle thing is funny because our producer Sarah, of course, tagged the wrong Matt Gaminsky, and I think that's. Well, no. It wasn't even a it wasn't even a Mac Gaminsky. It was just a Gaminsky. So are you and him dating now or something? Like, now that you've connected on Instagram, what's going on? I don't know. No, it was actually funny because today so we so when the pandemic started, we were actually Corey Easterbrook, Greek Rob Koenig, a bunch of people. We formed this kind of Emily Bourne's. We formed kind of a support group via iMessage and you know, one of we still have it, we still run it to this day. We bounce ideas off each other.

11:30 It's really. How do I how do I get in there? I just want to spam LDS all day, so I just want to come in and go. Anybody need any, you know, hog fours or whatever? Yeah. No, I mean, well, I'm sure they know how to get in touch with, you know where it's there. But no, no, no. So today I'm sitting there and I wake up this morning and I get a a text from Rob Gibson and in the group chat and he was like, so I guess I was following the wrong you on Instagram. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, who's this Gaminski K? Whatever he he loves to have his shirts off in his it's. Oh, no. And I was. Like that is definitely not me. That's hilarious. We're. All you're all laughing.

12:12 About Oh, so he didn't he didn't come after you for like spam in his inbox or anything? On. Yeah. Oh, no, No, no, no, no, no, no. But he's like, I'm going to follow this guy because I'm interested now. I was like, you can unfollow. It's like, no, no, no. This is going to be a good story. You want to hear something funny? So when I first started Gearsource, this is how long ago that was. I had AI think it was an 800 number or it might have just been my regular phone number. I don't remember. But whatever it was, I think it was 800 whatever. Or it might have been 866, whatever. Anyways, whatever it was, if you dialed like the 800 number instead of the 866 number or whatever, it went to a porn.

12:57 And you'll never guess who found it and told me was Marcia Stern. Marcia calls me and she goes, Marcel, did you know that if you call 800 instead of 866, you get like this, this hotline, this sex hotline thing, and I'm like, get the hell out of here. So of course I hung up on her and went and tried it and it's like. You're so hot. And all this. Stuff, right? It's like, whoa. And you're sitting on there being like, I'm racking up all the minutes on here. My phone bills can. Be Yeah, no kidding, No kidding. But yeah, I mean, it's funny. That Marsha found it. Yeah, Marsha found it. There was another one like that.

13:38 I think it's WestJet in Canada, which is sort of like the JetBlue in Canada, you know, the discount airline or whatever. We've all flown on it. And I think again, I think it's an 866 number and if you call 800 instead of 866, you get like a sex line or something. I think it's the exact. Same problem I had, those still exist. Well, this was a few years ago when I heard about that one and I went and tried it and it was real. But yeah, so pretty wild. Anyway, so you were in LA, You went to. I'm kind of jealous you went to the Parnellis, right? Yeah, I went to Nam and the Parnellis. It was it was a lot of fun. It was beautiful. It was so nice to see all the, you know, our industry together celebrating each other.

14:25 Oh, yeah, You know, Nicole from Felix, she brought in a table of all women and LGBTQ people. You know Roby had a table that they brought in a bunch of people. You know Gateway Studio, I mean it, it just went, it went on. It was packed like you could you couldn't walk 2 feet and and without bumping into somebody, you know. And it was, it was just it was really great. I think I remember hearing it sold out like a couple months in advance because I had a few companies reach out to me and say, hey, do you need a, do you need a seat? Because, you know, it's sold out. And I've got admit, I got to admit.

15:07 I've. Never been to the Barnelli's because every time it when it was at LDI, every single year there was always something like I either had a client dinner that I had to be at or a you know something or it was the same night as upstaging party or something was always wrong with why I couldn't go to the Parnelli's. Plus I hate wearing a suit and I didn't really want to dress in a suit. So you know, and you don't want to go there in jeans and AT shirt and look like a schmuck, I guess, but. No, but I mean, at the same time though, it's it, it's definitely an experience you you have to go to, especially if there's a lifetime award winner that you might, you know, or or whatnot. No, I I feel better every year for missing it because I like all the people who get all the awards, right? So yeah.

15:55 Yeah, I mean, it was amazing watching Rob get his Metallica award. I'm so proud of him. He worked so, so hard on that show, of course. And and it was also, you know, I the other, there were a few other events that are great with this whole Nam association that I really like. And you know the one I mean, my one issue with LDI is it's so expensive to go to these panels and take these classes, whereas with Nam it's it's fostering the education, right. So kids can pay. I think it's like $90.00 and they get access to all the classes throughout Nam for the week, which is amazing and there's some amazing panels we had.

16:42 One that I went to is Richard Kadena. He did electrify the audience and not your performers and it was talking about, you know, ground loops and and so how he's so good. You see what? He's doing now with this whole paywall thing, like he's got all of his. He's got a lot of training and stuff behind the behind one of the paywall services, which is so cool. I talked to him about it last week. Listen, man, if he's putting it out there, he should make money on it because he the end and just the way that he educates people. It's so down to earth. It's so much fun. You know, he's like, I'm going to show you video videos of people electrocuting themselves. Don't worry, they all survived and you're like, no way. And he would show it.

17:29 And you know, you see this guy freeze and shake and smoke comes out of his head and he's like, but don't worry, he gets up. Yeah, I mean, he was on my podcast telling me those stories. And I remembered because I was a singer, believe it or not. And I remembered so many times going like this up to the mic and going, you know and you know. Well, I mean the main thing that I found really interesting is, you know when when you're on tour, you hear backline people say, oh, you know that sixty cycle hum, I'm just going to, I'm just going to throw a ground lift on it. And that's that's what causes. Of course. Yeah. Well, we never even through. Back in my day, you didn't have, like, this fancy ground lifts. You just bent the plug off, you know? OK, let's make it a two Pronger, you know? He would kill you, of course.

18:16 He would, Of course he would. You know how many times I've done that in my life, though? Like 1000. You know, I mean, it's. I mean. We all have. It's just what you did when you didn't have the stuff, you know? It was always funny, too, because I was always that guy in the band where the band elected me the one to hook up to the 220 supply in the wall or whatever. And so, you know, you'd yell over to the bartender. Hey, is this shut off? Yep, Yep. It's off, you know. Definitely. Was it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No. Was that on purpose? No, no, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. Yeah, me too. But so did you do a? Course singer?

18:58 That's kind of amazing. You know, it's a funny story, so I'll tell it quickly because it's a funny story and I don't think I've ever told this story on the podcast, but I was in 6th grade and I went to church one week. I was Catholic. I went to church with my family and there was a little ad up saying band looking for a singer at the church and you know, rock band play all the latest rock'n'roll stuff looking for a singer audition to to audition call so and so or whatever, right. And so I called and the manager who answered the phone was a Catholic priest and he was the priest from our church.

19:39 And he said, yeah, you. The band rehearses in the basement of the church, but they play at regular gigs. They're a rock band. And so he set. Me up for an audition? Not like a Catholic, well. So hang on a SEC. So, so I went and auditioned and I got the gig and so to pay for the rehearsal space, basically the band every I can't remember if it was one Saturday a month or every second Saturday or whatever. We played this thing called the rock mass and it was like, I don't know, 8:00 at night or something on Saturday nights. And it was. Packed with like teenagers, right? Just like literally.

20:19 Kids that never went to church were all of a sudden packing this church standing room only. And so this. This priest's assistant was a German lady and she was translating these German Christian rock songs. This was prior to Striper. Or what was the other big one? Petra, it was prior to all these big Christian rock bands and so we were playing these really heavy German rock songs translated to English. And you know, we do this once a month or whatever, and that paid for our rehearsal space. And from there we'd go out and do gigs. We had a song on the radio at one point and so, so yeah, but I I started out as the singer. And then one day at practice, the priest fires our bass player and hands me a bass guitar and says here, learn to play. You got four weeks till our next gig or whatever, right? So I had to learn like 40 songs on a instrument that I'd never played before.

21:22 I played a tiny bit of guitar, like just goofing around at home or whatever. But so yeah, I had, I went and took bass lessons and and learned, you know, Dong Dong, Dong, Dong, Dong, Dong, like the most basic bass stuff I could. And then over time, I really got into playing the bass and I got kind of good at it and I decided I wanted to be a bass player. I didn't want to be a singer. I was a bass player singer for a long time. And then I started taking gigs as just a bass player and some background vocals. But that was about it. And then I just decided that, you know, I was on the road making $200 a week, but my bar tab was 250 and so I needed a job.

22:05 So I went and got a job in a music store and that led to lighting and onward. So. That's my life story. Well, I I knew we were kindred spirits. I I too, play bass. I just haven't had a chance to play in a very long time because I've been on the road. But that's actually how. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of it. Was one of those things in high school where I was like, man, I'd want to, you know, in in middle school we had to do like the the band, right? And I was that obnoxious kid that's like, I want to play the snare drum. So literally I would take a snare drum, bring it home and do like just it. Just a snare drum, not a full kit, a snare drum. And my parents were like, that's it. I would kill you.

22:50 And think like a think like a 6th, 7th, 8th grader, like hopped up on sugar being like, so when I went to high school, I mean also like when it comes to music, I always just kind of heard the baseline. Like it always kind of had a more forward sound to me in the in the, in the songs, so. So one day I left high school, you know, freshman year of high school, I went to Guitar Center and I got APB, you know, a crappy hundred $150.00 PB Bass. And I was like when I just started fuzzing around with it and just kind of became something I like to do. And I think I could never read sheet music, but I always, I could always hear it and replicate it. So, so being able to do that, help me with my musicality going forward in the lighting career, starting in theater where I started but ultimately carrying over to concert, touring and. Other, I mean, you know, I think bass and drums. Like I've known a lot of LDS who who were either part time for fun drummers or were drummers before they became LDS or whatever.

24:03 And I think, you know, obviously being part of the rhythm section really, you know, obviously gives you some some better timing and stuff. And I think it it fits, you know, like you like that sort of changing thing and and like you said sort of forward. So yeah, I mean, but I I fell into it. I mean he literally fired the guy and handed me a bass guitar and said learn to play it. And you know, later on in life like today I probably own 2 bass guitars, maybe 3 bass guitars. I can't remember and about 10 guitars and so if I ever pick up something to just goof around, it's usually an electric guitar, sometimes an acoustic guitar.

24:45 Well, it's it's always hard like to pick up like I have my bass, I have a trainer bass cab in my office, which is probably the worst place. It's two eighteens. But I. Have a trainer 218 bass cabinet. Oh dear. Boom. Boom. Oh my God. And I have AI have a Schecter 5 string and that that low B, Oh my God, when you hit that, it rattles. Yeah, my neighbors. Fall off the wall behind. You. Yeah. But I mean, it's like you hit it on the head. It's kind of like I feel like to be a good concert. Lighting this or just lighting designer that's dealing with music, to have a rhythm section background is going to just serve you. It's going to serve you so much.

25:33 I think that's why I'm so good at. I feel like I'm very good at busking shows because I know I can follow the drummer and I know where the song is going to go, you know? I just it's just a feeling that I have. So, you know, I know this is a really stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So I always I always see these busking competitions and stuff at LDI. But what is busking a show? Because I mean, I know what a busker is, a street performer or whatever. So is busking basically just walking up and doing lights? Well I mean it's it's you don't have anything programmed. I mean you have your punt page programs. I mean Emily, in your podcast with her she talks about when she does you know shows she's playing the lights like and that's exactly what you're doing. You're you're, you're playing the lights like a member of the band, except you don't have anything programmed. You're just when you push a button, it's going to stroke. When you move that fader up, it's going to do something. So, yeah, I mean it's that's kind of just. It's kind of like jamming.

26:38 Yeah, I mean, that's basically what it is. It's just a freestyle form. And you know, honestly, like when I first started with the Cult, that was all it was. It was you don't have a lighting rig. You can bring a console if you want, but you're not going to have time to program anything. We're not going to production rehearsals. We're just hitting the road. We're going. And. I just said yeah, And then depending on where the venue is, if they don't have anything, we would advance of a light plot, you know, something basic. But yeah, it would literally be rolling up in the entire day. On my first tour with the cult, I was just everyday building up and building up more my punt file. So by the end of it, I just had everything accessible to me and you know, knowing the music at that point, I mean, again, being a musician, I can pick up music really quickly. So if I hear a song two or three times, I know the structure, I know where fills are going, I know the the direction it's going, and then I find it's kind of, it becomes a little more cohesive.

27:42 So I know that you know this song is going to be blue and gold with some white accent hits, and I'll start to be able to replicate that. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So going backwards here a little bit back to Nam, did did you do training at Nam? Because I know you do. You do a bunch of hog training, right? Yeah, no, at Nam they didn't have. I don't think they had any any console training. They might have had ACT, might have had some MA. But honestly this year I was really kind of disappointed at Nam, not at Nam, but it's just there weren't a lot of vendors that we had in previous years. And I get it, ISC is going on.

28:26 You know, we just had LDI. But like the the idea of Nam as a kind of crossroads it, it kind of sets it up that it would be a perfect show for our industry. Because you have your artists doing endorsement deals, your tour managers are there, your production managers are there. So you know, instead of sending them a a YouTube clip or like a website to go check out about a new product you might want to use on a tour, want to take them over to the booth? Show them the fixture. You have a good thought. It's a nice thought, but in reality, like, you know, it's just not the core audience. And so I it's funny 'cause I talked about this on the intro Nam. I've been literally doing booths at the Nam show since 1992 and that was when I was early with Martin's distributor Trackman. And you know, I remember we used to be in the exit of the Convention Center that faced towards the right, towards the Hilton Lounge.

29:28 And this was back in the day when the Hilton Lounge was like manic. You know, it was just complete mayhem in there as soon as the show ended. And but so, you know, we were right by the exit. And I remember one day Eddie Van Halen walking in and coming to our booth and going, whoa, this stuff's pretty cool. And I mean, this is like 1993 or something, right? And he's like this stuff's pretty cool. What what's going on here? And you know, I'm like, you know, it's Van Halen and he's asking me questions about lights. What do I do? And had like a had a 15 minute conversation with Eddie Van Halen about moving lights, right. It was so cool. But what we always counted on was like the music store from the Midwest somewhere who just tripped over your booth and went, oh, I've been meaning to get into lighting, you know, But like the way I described it on the on the intro, I don't know what the, what the attendance was this year, but I mean I think it's usually around 100,000 people at NAMM or whatever over the four days. 100 to 200 to 200,000, I mean, but The thing is they come from all over the world like you get people from Africa there from you know Eastern Europe and it it's a it's, you know you get House of worship people you have your DJ people.

30:46 The I think 2019 or 2020 right before we got locked down there, we had a NAMM show and it was because it's in January. And I want to say that was I think the biggest showing like we had. You know Chevey was the Chevey was kind of always there. They weren't there this year, but Elation had a pretty big booth American DJ, you know SGMGLP. They were all there and Four Wall was actually there doing the their used lighting thing and they had a good amount of sales from from what I was told they actually gave like a 10% you know discount so they could track their sales and see if it was worth it.

31:31 And you know they said in in a week you know DJ is coming up wanting to buy like you know LED cars or you know they ended up doing really, really well and then the pandemic hit and then that just kind of I think the any forward momentum that we got coming up that way kind of just. Yeah, but here's here's the problem. So you know, let's imagine, you know, I don't know what some really expensive shopping would be in New York, but like the equivalent of what is it Madison Ave. or something like that, you know? 5th Ave. Or? 5th Ave. Yeah, something like that. So imagine putting a store there on 5th Ave. where you know that only about 3% or 2% of the traffic walking by is even remotely interested in your product because you're you're a bit of an A strange product for that industry or that market or whatever, right. That's what Nam is to lighting companies. You know it, it's it's not their core audience. About 95% of the people coming to that show have no interest whatsoever in lighting.

32:39 So you're you're spending big money, the same money that a guitar company or an amplifier company or a drum company would be spending for the 95% audience, you're spending for the 5% audience. And so it's not always the greatest value. Like you're just looking for that accidental deal that trips over you or whatever. But you know, I talked to several manufacturers, they said it was busy, but it was like me, you know, it it wasn't incredible from a business standpoint or anything. I just see like there's just some energy to Nam that like I'd like LDI. Don't get me wrong. One of the things I like about LDI is just seeing all my friends who I I haven't seen in a year and unfortunately I didn't get a chance to go to a lot of LD is in recent years or or in past years because the time it's always right in the middle of tour. And you know it's weird because everyone goes I, you know, the people, the audience is actually coming to Nam. They're just coming for the Parnellis. Like if you knew the industry that the the amount of people in our industry that were in that room, like OK, like why not set it up, make the investment and really push to make it worthwhile to have you know, Rob Koenig with like the Metallica production team was there.

34:02 People would love to sell products to those guys. You know, you had young aspiring talent there that would love to get their hands on some of this stuff. And really the only representation was SGM had a booth, GLP had a booth, ADJ had a booth, and everything else was like Chinese knockoff. Well, which was? Let me put it to you this way, Matt. So a booth the size of an act or a robe at at LDI. Let's talk about LDI, actually. There too, Yeah. Yeah. So let let's talk about LDI. A booth the size of ROBE or ACT, they're spending almost $1,000,000 on that booth. And so that's not something that you can do lots and lots of times.

34:51 Generally you're not going to make back anywhere near your investment on orders that you get at that show. So you're really investing in the year of business, not not just in that show of business. And you know, Nam, probably for me, the first few years we did it, it worked out pretty well because we were one of very few lighting companies there. And like I said, the old music store from the Midwest somewhere was tripping over us and going, yeah, I want some of that stuff in my store. I want to sell some club lights or whatever, right. And this was early in the industry and now though, you know, everyone has access to these products, those companies are not really there to meet with lighting companies. They're there to meet with their top guitar vendors or whatever vendor.

35:39 So I don't know, like I wish it would work. I wish it would work because it should, you know and but it's just such a big investment and it's right after LDI and I don't know if it'll ever work, but I wish it would because I love the Nam show. I went to a whole bunch of Nam shows as a music vendor before I ever did it as a lighting company and then I did it for 10 years as a lighting company too. So yeah. It's just I like the energy. I like seeing the people that I wouldn't normally see walking by a giant drums circle. That's pretty cool. That's very cool. It's a very. I like the sense of community and the wayback totally hear what? You're saying, Yeah, I'll go back to the Wayback Machine. So when I first started going as a music company I was, I mean this is probably this is well before you were born I think. So this was like the the early to mid 80s was the first time I went to the Nam show.

36:35 Probably 8382 was my first Nam show and I. Was one. I was one. There you go. So I remembered there would be times when I'd be standing at the Bank of payphones talking to my girlfriend and I'd be like, whoa, there's, you know, Joe Satriani, whoa, there's Eddie Van Halen, whoa, there's so and so whoever, right? And it was just all mini skirts and rock stars. It was such a fun show. And then party at the Hill at at the Hilton Lounge across the street afterwards. And and then, you know, you'd go out to local clubs and see, you know, just the craziest huge bands playing at these clubs. Or they'd have these throw togethers where it's, you know, Van Halen and and Seymour Duncan and Leslie W from Mountain and like just all these people that are jamming, you know, and you're just like wow, this is so cool to experience this. Yeah, it was fun.

37:34 I mean, it is cool. It is cool because I did get to see some people that I tour with. Yeah, you know, audio, the audio guys, some musicians. So it was, you know? It it's a cool. Show I got my yeah I got I got my 2 days of awesome and yeah and and Parnelli love. Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome. Hopefully you'll be on the on the Parnelli list soon, so keep working hard, young feller. Speaking of thanks Dad. Speaking of being young, you're part of a younger generation who, you know, I always talk about on on this podcast how people got into the business and and the fact that it's usually just a real weird lucky thing where you're sitting at a pub and some guy next to you, you know, works for some big band or something and says hey, you want a job, I need a guy to do this or whatever, right?

38:25 And next thing you know, you're a touring guy and you've made a 40 year career out of it, but you're part of a younger generation who who was actually able to study lighting design and I think you did that at Boston University, right? Yeah, yeah. I went there for theater. Yeah, back in I was there 1999 to 2003. It was great. It was it. It, you know, it's this, this industry. Like I the best way to describe it is this industry found me because I didn't get into this until high school where I was looking for something. I was, you know, I went to a new high school. I wanted to do something different, so I joined the football team.

39:07 Right. So we played and then after football was done, I was like, what am I going to do with myself? Like, I'm just bored. So I I walked by one day, saw a poster for Dracula that my school was doing. And I went to go see it. And I was like, wow, this is amazing because it was a school where they actually invested in the arts still and joined the stage crew and just started building sets, painting sets. And then I had the option in my junior and senior year to start taking, you know, more classes basically. So I took, you know, costume design, masks and make up, scenic design, lighting design, and it just kind of stuck, you know, I just really was like getting up an inkling for lighting. I just, it was, I was passionate about it and we were getting ready to do a festival where we're having a bunch of schools come and compete and the lighting designer. For the school at the time, got sick and my teacher was like, well, you're up.

40:11 So basically. I got bumped into that, got put in a high pressure situation, knocked it out of the park and then at that point I was like, this is really what I want to do. So at that point I was applying to colleges, didn't really know what I wanted to do in college. And then at that point, I was like, I want to go for lighting design. So applied to BUBC Holy Cross mostly like northeast schools got into BU and that was the best thing that could have happened to me. I got in at a school that had a major regional theater where we were getting Broadway lighting designers coming in and designing shows. I got to assist them.

40:52 I got to watch them in their process. I got to focus lights for them, which is, you know, it's just, it's amazing. Fast forward graduated college and then just immediately hit the ground running, started like sending resumes. I mean, I really didn't have much of A resume. I had my college stuff and some stuff I was doing over the summer, but just sent my resume out and was like begging people to hire me. Eventually, you know, I got calls and I worked on shows and I built up a resume and my name got out there. But one thing I will say about theater is that it just doesn't pay well. Like you would spend 3 months on a show and get $500. Like that's just the way it is.

41:38 And you know, if there's one good thing the pandemic taught us is knowing yourself worth, right? You know, knowing what you're worth and what a living wage is. Well, we didn't do that. Like I would go from 1 gig, open a show, get in my car, pound a Red Bull, drive 4 hours to Vermont to design another show that I spent three days sleepless, tacking a show, then drive home, have one day off, do my laundry, go someplace. It was just, you know, at one point I was doing 35 almost 3540 shows a year, which is basically I was in fact almost every week of that year. It's just not. It's not.

42:19 And making enough to survive to pay your rent, put gas in the car and eat. I mean that's. Why though? Why? Why? Why do you have to leave theater and go to, like, you know, corporate or rock'n'roll to make any money? Well, I it's the so. So if you look at it right, so if you look at, let's look at concert touring, right, let's say you know AB or a Lister lighting director is making somewhere between 3:00 to $5000 a week, right? That's a week you would, if you were lucky, doing a major regional theater and spending at this point, like the rates have changed obviously with inflation. But at this point, like if you're going to do a Broadway show or Alert B, you're going to probably be making four $5000 for the show and that's about, you know anywhere from four to six month commitment with production meetings, reading scripts, drafting your light plots, talking to shops. You know it's just it it and ultimately what you're doing. It's crazy ultimately like you would hope that you have multiple ones going on at the same time. So like you have your meeting and then you're going into tack and it it just it layers out that way. But you know when you're only making $500, trust me, I I would like go to New York City to work on an Off Off Broadway show, just to get an off Off Broadway

43:51 show credit where I'm getting $250 because that's all the producer. Had is that just because, is that because of the the economics of a theater show like is or did someone just, you know, did you just get shoved down the line to where you know everybody gets paid before the tech crew? No, I think it's, I mean, even actors, you look at actors, they don't get paid nearly what they're worth. I mean that's why these summer stock theaters, you know, these kids are making, you know, maybe 100 and 5200 bucks a week, but they're getting housing provided and they're getting to do their art. That's kind of the selling point, right? But I mean, it's not, listen, I love theater, and I'm actually getting ready to do a theater show in about a month.

44:36 I'm doing beautiful The Carole King musical because I can, you know, being being able, coming from a theater background, it allowed me to kind of train my eyes to be able to work in multiple disciplinary things within lighting. So like I could do concert touring, I could do corporate, I can do fashion, I can do, you know, I I my, my skill set is such that I'm not just I I came up into this industry being educated. So I think that really helped me to be able to diversify my strengths within life. So it's not. Absolutely.

45:16 And I think, you know, it's different. You get some kids now, they're coming in. You know, they they go to school. They get like a basic tech theater education and you know, a lot of things that are a lot of companies like cruise ships are really hunting to find people. So they're getting these young kids in and kind of shaping them in a certain way. Same thing goes with shops, you know, you get these kids coming in coiling cables and then magically they get the opportunity to be like an L3 on on a major tour. You know, I think it's it's all the it's just the hustle, you know, It's just whatever you need to do to hustle and. So is theatre still like, is theatre still like your your, you know, main love that you'd love to go back to when you have the opportunity?

46:03 Is it that kind of a thing or is it just another gig? No, I mean, nothing for me is ever just a gig. Even when it comes down to corporate, because I I I care too much. Even if my name is like, nobody's going to know who designed this. I just I I just care too much like to to just go. It's fine. I don't think you can care too much, you know, I think, I think it's a good thing. And that's what keeps you getting hired is when you care and people know that you give a shit, right? Yeah, well, I would, yeah, I would hope so. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, for me, I whenever I came, like there was a good chunk of time that I didn't do theater, 'cause I was just focused. I was like the concert tour and stuff that's just coming in.

46:43 You know, I was, you know, 2008, 18, I was, I was lighting director on Evanescence 2019. I was, you know, got into lighting directing and you know Alice In Chains and then that kind of folded over to where it was kind of a design. It was a very Gray muddy area on that, but but it was all this stuff. It just kept coming, You know, phone calls kept coming, opportunities kept coming. And trust me, there were theaters that reached out to me and said, can you do the show? And, you know, I tried to make it work. And it's, you know, I think in the last, you know, six years I've probably done about 6 to 10 theater shows, which it's, I like it.

47:31 I want to keep doing it. It is a passion of mine. But you know, I still love being in front of house and hearing the go house lights go for show, the lights flashing out, the crowd just going insane and getting those butterflies in my stomach. It's it's one of the it's it's better than than drinking. You know, I I don't do drugs but it's better than like that. Whatever. You do. Don't. Don't say it's better than sex, 'cause I know you have a girlfriend now and that can cause you some issues. Don't say that. It's not. It's not. So. No, it's just it's it's it's I just love, I I just love what we do, you know it's just it's such a great.

48:14 Yeah, no, it's cool. I mean, you know, I've never been an LD who has stood at the console and you know, called cues and called house lights out or whatever. But I've been standing front of house and been part of that. And it's, it's even exciting for me watching, you know, and praying that whatever lights that I sold to that production work, you know, they come on when when he calls that cue or whatever, right? Absolutely. But so your your first tour, I think tours that you did were actually theater tours, not rock'n'roll tours, right? Yeah my first tour was I was the lighting designer for the Moscow Ballet which was kind of an amazing experience.

48:57 I was I I worked at a as a house LD at some people in your podcast would know Social Music Circus in up in Boston just South Shore. I was also the house LD at Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom. A couple of Any's in Boston and one of the one of the production managers of Social Music Circus. It's a it's a summer venue, so in the winter nobody's working. So he got a job at with this company in Western Mass that are producers for the Moscow Ballet and he said, hey, you're great LD do you want to come out and do this? And I was like, hell yeah, I do. So that was kind of a baptism by fire. I was basically on the road from end of September through New Year's and we were touring two different shows we're doing Sleeping Beauty and The Nutcracker and we went everywhere from Regina or Regina. Sorry.

49:59 Regina to yeah. I mean and it was it was like a rock'n'roll tour. We never did a sit down. It was it was you know 6:00 AM load insurance you know 2 show days sometimes pack it all out into the truck move on. So trust me, I definitely learned. You know, I cut my teeth in touring that way. Did. Did you tour on buses at that time though? Yeah, funny story. Our tour bus on the Moscow Belly tour was the Hanson Bop tour bus in their music that they're shooting the water, that they're shooting the water guns out of the windows, Yeah.

50:40 That's hilarious. Yeah, it was pretty funny. So let me ask you, because I'm really curious and it's another stupid Marcel question, but living on a tour bus for a ballet? Different than living on a tour bus for the cult. Well, so we did we the the no, not really. Like we still have our crew members. We had, you know, we had a stage manager lighting sound merch. I just feel like the people would be so much more cultured, you know, on a on a ballet tour than a rock'n'roll tour. Like less drugs, less, less nonsense, less. You know of all the bad stuff.

51:24 I mean, I think the worst we did was smoke pot like and we we would drink like, but it wasn't. It wasn't like. I don't think we really had time to party our face off like. I mean, you want to talk about grueling? I think we had maybe four days off that entire run. One of them was Thanksgiving, one of them was Christmas. But we did actually. We had a great time. We got to we convinced our production manager to ride our bus to Key West for Christmas. We parked up in an RV slot and and basically for Christmas dinner we caught fish and grilled them on the beach. It was. Pretty. That's awesome. It was pretty cool. Wow. But yeah, I mean it, it's, I mean, a roadie is a roadie.

52:06 Even though, even if they're theater roadies, you know. They're. I know. I again. It was fun. Stupid Marcel question, but I I just. Wanted to ask a question. Well, you know, I, like, I've always been intrigued by the idea of a tour bus, you know, with eight of your closest friends in bunks and stuff. You know, but because I've never done it, like I've toured with bands as a band member. But we never had AI, never made it to the point of a tour bus. We were in like a school bus with the gear in the back and the people in the front. And you know, you either slept on speaker cabinets in the back or you slept on a seat in the front. And and that was about, you know, as as fancy as touring got for me. But so that first tour, did you, did you go, Oh yeah, this is what I want to do.

52:54 Yeah, because I liked, I liked the waking up in a different city, but it was the same task, you know what I mean? It's like you, we got to do the same thing, we got to achieve the same goal, but it's a different 4 walls. Every day you're dealing with a different crew. So at a very young age I I learned, I got a temperament for being able to work with stage hands. And you know when you're walking into, you know, Local 2, Local 3, Local 1 here as a young kid and you're the head electrician slash lighting designer and you're talking to these guys that have 40 years on you and are, you know, gruff. You learn how to, you learn how to to to play.

53:38 You know the rules. You know when to push and you know when to you know what hell to die on this. You learn that really quick. That's that's, yeah, that's a good point. So I think at a young age, like being able to do that was, you know, I, and I think I started when I was doing that. It was, I want to say it was like 2627. So I didn't start touring as a kid, but I did. I did learn, you know, baptism by fire. Like I didn't have that shop work. I didn't have that experience. Like I'd I'd always wanted to go concert touring. Like I would go see like Dave Matthews Band concerts.

54:20 Like they were my like Grateful Dead when I was a kid, right. So I would go to, I would go to like, you know, 200 shows and I'd always be like, oh man, this lighting is so cool. I would love to do this. And you know who my grateful? Dead was Grateful Dead. Yeah, I'm old now. I was never a Grateful Dead guy. I was never a weed guy. So I didn't get the Grateful Dead, you know, It just didn't like I loved Supertramp. I loved more. I don't know, just I loved bands that I thought were good musicians and stuff and and made a really nice polished sound and stuff. I didn't like jam bands. I I'd never been a Dave Matthews fan, was never really a black crow's fan, was never really a counting crow's fan like all these jam bands. Just never really did anything for me. And that's that.

55:08 That's the beauty of it. Like you don't need to like everything that's out there. That's why there's lots of different stuff. So you've you, you've toured. What was your first rock'n'roll tour? OK, so it was Neon Trees back in 2011, 2012? Oh, some really recent. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would say, yeah, I mean 1010 years. Yeah. I mean it was like, you know, working at Hampton Beach Casino, Ballroom, working at, you know, all these other places being where I mastered my punting craft. You know, bands would be like, oh, wow, those lights were actually, it's like we're carrying our own lighting person. Give me your card.

55:54 So I handed out cards left, right and center. And one of my one person, a friend of mine now basically said this band's looking for an LD. Are you are you interested? Like you know they're coming to Boston in four days. Can you meet them at Paradise and, you know see if it's a good fit? Went there, talked to the lead singer, talked to a couple of the members of the band, Walked around with the production manager. Just kept trying to you know he's feeling me out of as production managers do and you know the next morning I got a phone call saying you know we want to replace this guy, we want you in.

56:34 Can you be in Norfolk at the Norva in two days and I would you replace, OK. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to, all right? I can't say that I can't. It was just, you know, he was an older gentleman. This was a younger band and they're just aesthetics didn't clash. They clash. They didn't. They didn't melt and blend together. So. So you know having somebody you know within their age range that has an aesthetic that we could really push things. The challenge to that was, you know back then we didn't have previs. You know, previs is a relatively new thing So and he was on a AVO I want to say and I'm by no means like the killer AVO guy. And I was like, can I get my own console? And at that time Hog Three was still out there. Hog Four had not existed yet.

57:28 So I got myself a Hog Three and literally day one set up the floor package the way I wanted the floor package to be set up that it wasn't prepped properly. So I had to re prep it. And then I just sat down and started programming and I probably got through five songs and then the rest of the show I just punted. And then each day I would set up program a little bit more, you know, punch what I didn't have and just kind of built the show as I went. And unfortunately that that was a reoccurring theme for me. IIA lot of my friends called me the Doctor because several bands, you know, in this time period would call me to fix shows. You know, they hired a young kid who didn't know what they were doing or whatever.

58:10 So I would be brought in and I'd have to redesign the show from scratch. So I I got really good at that. Yeah. No previous just going in there and. That's a good thing, though. That's a really good thing. I mean you know I think you know guys like Cosmo have have done so great at just being adaptable and and you know like Cosmo when he first came on my podcast he said, you know I just say yes and then I figure it out. I say yes to everything and I figure it out you know and that's it's it's a good attitude to have and this fix it doctor guy is also a really good thing. You know, it's it's, I think it's good to become known as a guy who can come in and solve some problems and fix some stuff and and make you happy, you know, yeah. So I mean and even if it's you know, you would hope it would be a long term thing like you come in, you, you fix it. They're happy with it.

59:05 You know I remember the first night another bands I work for Mr. Wives. I met them at Boston Calling and, you know, four days later they were like, hey, are you available? And we'd like you to come out and replace this. You know, this person, he's just young. He didn't, he didn't prep any of his limbs. Everything was loose cable. So when you would open up the trunk, you would be just like a Stinger and you're just like what is going on here? So the loadings would take 8 hours. And then it was, it was not good. So you know the first night that I did the show, like, I'm, you know, you take your shower, you're getting on the bus, getting ready to roll. And the guitar players, like, he knew I was there because I was above him and he just flew open the curtain to the bunk and he was like this photo, this photo is amazing. You make me look like a God.

59:52 And I was like that's the best compliment you could get right now that that there's in one night, one show that, you know, they they're happy with it. That's cool. So. And you hope that that relationship continues and you get to keep working with those bands. Yeah. So. Yeah, now that's really cool. And I mean you did some, you did some cool stuff. Maroon 5 of an Essence. I was lighting director on Maroon 5. That was a demphis design way back, way back in the day. That was the first time I got to meet and work with Joe Cabrera. He was that was an amazing experience. I had to. I had to learn MA for that. So I knew just enough MA to be dangerous. Yeah, so.

1:00:38 Wow, I forgot about Demphis. Yeah, yeah, that's a sad one. Yep. Absolutely. So how'd you How'd you get into the cult? How'd that happen? So the tour manager for the Cult used to tour manage Alice In Chains and we were wrapping up the Alice In Chains Rainier Fog tour in 2019. And I'm trying to remember who I think it's actually like Court Lawrence actually I think recommended like he was, he wasn't available and he reached out to me or put out feelers and somebody recommended me because they knew my tour was coming to an end and put me in touch with the tour manager.

1:01:26 The tour manager had actually, you know, a couple years earlier, stopped tour managing Alice in Chain. So he's like, OK, we have that connection and you know I took over Alice In Chains from Marty Postma. He was like, I love Marty Postma. So we got that bond going and then basically we just, we would talk on the phone and it was a European Tour and they were ultimately looking for auk tour. Ultimately they were trying to find Auk designer. So they didn't have to pay for for flights because it was a small tour. It's only like 2, 1/2 weeks. And he was like, so after about, like, I want to say 5 phone conversations, he was like, what's preventing me from hiring you? And I was like a plane ticket. And he was like, you're in.

1:02:09 All right, we're getting you a flight and we'll see you in three weeks. That's hilarious. I mean it's, you know it's sometimes you got to work for it, but. And when was that? What? What year was that? 2019 So the fall oh. You've been with the Cult for a long time, then for four or five years. Well, I mean, we did have that. Yeah, Yeah. Pause. Yeah, yeah. You came right back with them after it, right? They didn't find somebody during Covad to bump you. Yeah. No, that's good. I mean, The thing is, The thing is, I really in that camp, like, it's, you know, there are different dynamics, right? And there are a lot of people who are listening to this podcast that have probably worked with that band and know the dynamics within that band. But there's something about like, yes, it can get stressful. Yes, it can get confusing because one person is saying one thing and another person is saying another. But the thing that I've always discovered with that band is there's just something about when they're playing and when you're doing your show.

1:03:06 I have never had more fun in my life lighting a band than lighting the cult. I just there's something about it. They're they're that old school rock band that doesn't play the tracks. And while they might flub a note here or there every once in a while, they especially after. The pandemic? Especially after the pandemic they are playing and they sound like 30 years ago, it's like it's absolutely amazing and the energy that they give on stage every night is just, it's just amazing. So when you when you talk about a dynamic, is that like Ian Aspery and and what's the other guy's name like they don't get along well or something? No. No, they do.

1:03:48 It's just, you know, Ian has. The thing that I like about Ian is he's an artist like through and through. Like we will get into deep conversations about, you know, design concepts like he his, his big influences are like 9 inch nails and Bow house, right? So he keeps sending me, so we're on a tour where we have this big sepia backdrop that's a mountain and it has the Sonic Temple logo on it, right? And he keeps sending me these Bauhaus 9 inch nail photos and says I want my show to look like that. And I said OK, what is the, what is the overarching theme that you're seeing in all of these photos? That's really that that you want and he goes, you clearly have the answer to this why don't you just tell me and I said negative space there's darkness there's black there's there's like an infinite in infinitesimal amount of space back there and it just goes Meanwhile we have a backdrop that even when you completely black out the the stage you can still see it.

1:04:49 So you know that at least got us into a conversation where I could production design and be. We then started getting, we got rid of that backdrop and we brought in this, we went to rent, I went to rent what and got this amazing backdrop. It was called black camo chaos and it looks like an old Austrian drape and it had, it's made out of tank camo netting and it's painted in peers and blacks and Grays and it's all swag. So it looks very gothic but when you turn the lights off or you don't light it, it completely goes away. So you just have this infant, this infinite blackness back there. And from that moment we were able to really start crafting a design for this band that I wasn't competing with, this sepia toned backdrop that really didn't, to me, didn't really speak to what this band was anymore.

1:05:40 I feel like they've they've evolved into like going, you know, they're technically a goth band, right? Goth rock or whatever. But I still see them as like they're you know, especially like the hits that they play. It doesn't seem very gothy to me, you know like Firewoman, she sells sanctuary. That stuff is to me that's rock'n'roll. That's like 80s rocks, eighties, 90's rock, you know. But what we just did this 40th anniversary of of death cult where it was all the Dreamtime record where it's like 83rd dream Dreamtime Christians like all that stuff that is that the sounds that like new Wave you know post punk goth sounds that that like when they say they're goth, I'm like yes that is 100% goth.

1:06:30 Yeah, and we were able to really achieve some cool stuff on this last. So let me ask you, because I I was, you know, I was a minor cult fan I would say, but I didn't know about this Death cult thing. And when I first saw you going out to tour with death cult, I'm like, is this the same band or what is it? And so I Googled it and and so they were. That was the original version of the cult, right? Was. Yeah. Well, there was Southern, yeah, it was Southern Death Cult was or yes, Southern Death Cult was the first iteration and then some members fell off. I believe that was Ian's original band. Then Billy came in and then they created, you know, they basically dropped the Southern and just named it Death Cult. And that's that's kind of like where they found their sound and they did one album which was this death cult stuff and then basically they dropped to the death and just became the cult after that.

1:07:31 So it's just it's a it's it's just a growth process like us as artists, as me, as a designer, as an artist like you grow, you develop, you rebrand. That's kind of what they. Did so when when they went out and toured as Death Cult, did they just play that one album? Pretty much they they basically played that album they played She Sells, Sanctuary Rain. They basically said they weren't going to play anything past Rain, The The Rain where the album That Rain is on. And then they played Ed Spirit Walker I think was another song that they played on there. But I mean it was like 17 or 18 songs. I mean it was it was a pretty pretty. I mean also those songs, you know some of them are shorter than others.

1:08:16 So the set, you know, while if you're doing, you know, Firewoman or you know any of the older songs that are definitely like 5 to 6 minutes long, these songs, some of them are like two or three minutes long. So, you know, the set times kind of truncate themselves, but you know, I mean. But is it basically just the same fans? Like, they just go, oh, the cult is back again and this time they're back as the death cult. And so I'm just going to get tickets again, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. These the The thing is, this is the first time this band has played these songs in 40, you know, 3930. 8 to 40, something like that. Give or take. So the nostalgia of these people coming to and and the band made an effort to play smaller rooms. They wanted to play rooms that they played back then. So.

1:09:06 You know we're in. But in a sense, it's kind of like KISS saying we're going to do just the Destroyer album or whatever, right? And going into exactly which a lot of sort of classic rock bands are starting to do now. Like, I just saw one the other day who's going, oh, an 80s band, who was it? Rat. Rat Or he's touring Rat with and they're doing the entire Out of the Cellar album. And you know, but a lot of Sebastian Bach is doing it too. He's doing the the first Skid Row album, which I forget what it's called. I was never a huge fan, but yeah, so that's that's cool.

1:09:46 So, but I mean, was it the same design or did you actually change up the design too? So the challenge so the challenge for that show was we in the middle of the it's. So in October we went out to do a West Coast run with just straight up cult. But in the middle of that we did a show at the Ace Hotel in LA that was Death cult. It was we were doing one night in LA, this death cult show, and I had to basically start programming these songs with the existing cult rig and then when I went to the Uki adapted it.

1:10:26 So the one cool, one of the cool things about Ian is he's like he he wants it to be as hazy as the cemetery on stage. He told me that he's like, I don't, I want it to be dark, I don't want front light. So that's a challenge to get let the audience be able to see them, see them without pissing off, you know, the talent. I mean, I saw pictures. I just thought maybe you were a shady designer or something. I could never see the band. No, I'm kidding. You could actually see the The crazy thing is you could actually, you actually could see them. I and I would, you know, I would. My front light color choices were always really important. They were not overly saturated, but like it was a blue with, you know, a little paler blue than I would use in a, you know, fully saturated blue. Yeah, and it was it would, you know, it would be enough for them to feel comfortable on stage. The other thing is he loves strobes. So I had to you know in my initial cult design, I had eight JDC ones on this.

1:11:25 I added four more. I added a bunch more mega points on towers. You know I I just, I kept the the core of what I had in my programming, but I just beefed it up, you know and I caught I think I had some Tetra ones that unfortunately the vendor didn't have so I just caught them. The Tetra ones were like lighting the back line and we didn't need to do that, so. It. Was all in a hot floor. I actually my I brought my fly rig console which I built, which is great, you know it fits in a 1637 Pelican and I can fly anywhere in the world with it. It is 64 universes more than AMA 3 full size.

1:12:06 Wow, have you never had any pressure to like, learn an MA console? Or do you know an MA console well enough to run a show or? I can run a show but I can't program a show on it. And I I see my whole thing is I'd rather be really good at one thing than just OK and others. I you know I picked up learning Hog in college. We got an amazing capital improvement grant when I was in college and my first moving lights console was a Hog 500. So basically that's what I learned on. So I felt really comfortable like being you know 20 plus years. That's what I felt comfortable on. Obviously a Hog 500 is a huge, huge leaps and bounds to you know a Hog 4 right now.

1:12:56 But it's just it's just what I feel comfortable with. I can program just as good of a show as anyone on an MA. It's it. It it's not a it's not a Hog 3. And I'm sure the MA family of people would love that the Hog 3 happens, because it it they they did get the lion's share of Hog 3 programmers moving over to the Ms. Yeah, yeah, they lost their, they lost their market really quickly on the hog three, you know, because the hog two owned the market. I mean like literally 98% of the console market was hog two and then hog three happened and it kind of went let's let's create like these fingers of lots of different stuff out there, you know, because the hog. Three.

1:13:42 Well, you know, had. Some issues. You know, I will say just to any manufacturer listening here, don't ever put a three in the name of your your product. There's the Mac 3, the Hog 3. Yeah, yeah. And other threes, yeah. Another three. How many? How many enemies you want to make on one podcast. We got to be careful. Yeah, it's. All about the lobby. No, I mean, honestly, it's, you know, it's we can all razz each other. I get so much crap for being guy, but you know, there's plenty of work and I like being known as one of the guys to to be able to come in and do it. So it's also nice to be important to your vendor, you know what I mean? Like you can call, ETC.

1:14:29 And say, hey, here's some things that I'd like to see changed. Or, you know, I'm sure they're probably going to talk to you when they're creating the Hog 5. If they probably already are creating the Hog 5, but you know, I'm sure they're going to, I'm sure they're going to talk to you because you've been one of their most loyal users, you know, still to this. Day. I mean there are more, there are more of us out there. I'm just going to let you know, but. No, no, I mean, we sell used hog fours as fast as we get them. So I know there's lots of lots of happy users of hog fours. But but yeah, I mean, I I just wonder like as a guy in New York who's, you know, looking to put food on the table and stuff, are you forced to at some point learn the MA2MA3MA whatever? And it doesn't seem like it.

1:15:17 Yeah, I mean, I survived a global pandemic living in New York City and I found barely, somehow found a way, barely, barely, somehow, somehow found a way to pay my rent. So. Yeah, I mean I wanted to talk about that cuz I actually every once in a while I go back and watch some of the zoom calls that I recorded. I didn't record them all, but I recorded some of them. I saw one saw one of your ones that you posted on Instagram on the geezers Instagram and it's just there's a it's zoomed in on like four of us. It's Marcia Stern and me up at the top. And I just, I'm like, yeah, well, I think that's. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how we met? Like on those zoom calls? Like, I don't think I knew you before that and I didn't know you.

1:16:00 We got to know each other pretty well and became friends. Yeah. And I wanted to say thank you so very much for doing those because it was such AI looked forward to those every week. Like that was like my me too, my touch with reality. Yeah, no, me too. I looked forward to it as well. I mean a lot of us, we were sort of going through detox or or you know, whatever you want to call it. I mean it was just like, you know, everything's gone. Like, you know, my whole life is gone. All my friends are gone. What do I do? I mean, you could still talk to your friends, but it just wasn't the same. But you know where that whole idea came from was I owned a franchise company as well and and it was actually had just wound down. But I still knew a lot of people in the franchise business. And one of my franchise friends said I was just on a zoom happy hour.

1:16:57 And I said what's a zoom happy hour? And they said, Oh yeah, everybody just goes on there and drinks. And I said, well jeez, I got to do a zoom happy hour for for my industry because everyone loves to drink in my industry and and nobody's got anything to do right now. We're completely shut down. And so it just started as that, you know, it was just like, hey, I threw, I threw it out there and see if anybody shows up and I think the first week like 10 or 15 people showed up and the next week it was 20 and the next week it was 25 and. I mean we had up to, we had up to 100 at 1:00. Point I I think I had over 100 'cause I had to upgrade zoom for a bit there and pay for the over 101. And but you know it it some weeks got a little tense because we were also going through an election period and and you know so not everyone agreed on everything politically of course and and socially Like there were some some people who were really into some social topics and some people who were a little bit against them And and it was funny because you know some people were more vocal than others on the other side, especially like on the call it the Trump mega side or whatever and didn't really say much but I'd get calls from those people after the podcast going, you know, that that asshole said blah, blah, blah and and I'm like why don't you just discuss it during the thing and and you know I guess it was really hard

1:18:27 cuz it was a it was a toxic environment, you know. Yeah. Well, it doesn't help when you start talking politics and you're drinking. Right, right. And you know, I remember one time the most tense it ever got. I was actually at a racetrack. Go figure. And. Watching your son. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember Greg Jones from Martin Goes. So I just want to ask a question, where's everybody on masking? And I was just like, oh, we shouldn't go there. And then I think it was Koenig who went, why not? And I said because we promised we'd never talk about politics or anything divisive or.

1:19:10 And he goes, well, why the fuck should masks be political or or divisive? And I went, well, this is exactly why we shouldn't talk about this, right? Let's just stay friendly. Why not? And then it got a little bit ugly and finally I was like, guys, I'm just going to end the call because I don't want to argue. Like I don't want to be in this position. I I love all of you and you know, so and and I'm the same today. Like I I'm getting ready to start shutting down Facebook here soon because it's going to start getting the same way again and I just don't want to be a part of that. Yeah. Sometimes a digital detox is a good thing to have. You know it's. But you know, the other thing that I I remembered while I was prepping for this podcast was you were a big part of the We Make Events thing. And you know, when when that idea first started circulating, you raised your hand instantly and said, Yep, I'm in. I want to be a part of it.

1:20:04 And you became part of that initial sort of exploratory discussion that we had and and. It gave me, I mean I got to say like especially for our industry, it gave me so much purpose especially when it's like every day it's like the same. So what are you going to do? It's like, yeah, it's it, it was, it was so amazing to be able to get on phone calls with people and and plan and and just bring a lighting, I mean. Things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know it was probably the first time in history that, you know, that many lighting people were so excited to work for free, you know, and, but, but it really was like, I mean people seeing lighting companies loading up trucks full of lights.

1:20:48 I mean some of these gigs were big, you know, and they were loading up lights and trusts and all kinds of stuff and programming and everything. And they were so happy to do it. It's it's the proudest I've ever been in my career and and the most happy I've ever been to be a part of something. Like I remember saying to my girlfriend the night that it was going on and I was watching the the Christian Jackson live stream thing, I remember saying to my girlfriend, you know, this is definitely a pinch me moment, like something that hopefully we never have to do again, but I'm so happy that I was a part of it, you know? I mean, the camaraderie, like the people that I met in this industry, like the people that I would probably never meet, you know that you're friends with obviously, because you're just so connected.

1:21:34 But like Norm Schwab and like all the West Coast light switch people and you know just it just all of those people you know coming together and and you know it was just it was it it was so amazing. I actually still over. Here. Marsha Marsha gave me these. These are the Gobos. Yeah, she gave me some too, but I never got smart enough to frame them, so I'm going to have to do that. That's a great idea. That's a really cool idea. Yeah, she sent me a. T-shirt and some Gobos. Yeah. It's nice to be able to just look at it and remember and like kind of smile. You know it's just there was a it it I definitely like. I just remember when we were in New York City and like you know Herrick was going around taking photos of like putting the We Make Events logo on the theaters and then you know somebody called us or something and said the Empire State Building just went red.

1:22:26 The Empire State Building that was like, Oh my God, it's amazing. And having that Madison Square Garden and just, you know, it was no, it was getting a little teary. Eyed dude it was it was crazy. It was again. I mean, I was probably up 24 hours at one point And and you know, because there was just a lot going on like coordinating a lot of different people and different things and media and, you know, trying to do this broadcast thing with Christian and I had no idea what I was doing And and thank God he kind of did. And no, I mean it. The coolest thing ever. I I wish it would have swung the politicians a little more than it did. But you can talk to people from outside our industry today about that And they go, oh, you were a part of that. That's really cool.

1:23:14 I remember that. You know, I saw so and so was red or whatever. So yeah, that was cool. But you were a big part of that. You were. You were right there at the front end of it. So you know, part of the sort of Core 4 or 8 or whatever it was, I don't remember. I think they were like either eight or ten of us. Yeah, it was like Chris Hassan and, yeah, a bunch of. Chris Hassan, Marsha. And. Me, Cosmo, Brad Nelms, of course, who became the leader of it when I couldn't do it anymore because it was just too much. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was fun. It was fun. It was great. Yeah, we went to war together, brother. We absolutely did. It was fun and sometimes we didn't agree on everything, but we found a way to the end of it somehow, you know? Compromise.

1:23:59 Compromise. Well, that's what this industry's about, right? Getting it done. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you taking some time today, Mr. Matt. Absolutely. It's been fun to get you on. Finally. I I thought you were just too young, you know, So I had to wait until you aged a bit. I see a little tiny bit of. Gray in your beard? I'm not that. Young, tiny bit of Gray in your beard and you got a girlfriend now and stuff, so you know you're definitely, you've matured, young man, yeah. A little bit older, a little bit wiser. Is she sick of the touring business yet? It's always a, it's always a challenge. Like you know, we met, we actually met during the pandemic and you know it was I I I've never not been truthful about what I do and and the extent of my traveling. I have cut back a little bit on my traveling. I've been a little more selective on jobs. Like before we dated, you know, before the pandemic. I would just take whatever I could because why not? Yeah, but I miss, you know, I do miss being home, but I also miss being on the road.

1:25:04 And it's not, it's not because I want to escape anything going on here. I I absolutely love being home. I just love lighting. I love it's part. Of your life. It's a big. Part of your life. Yeah, I mean, what are you going to do? It's a big part of your life and it's amazing when you find somebody who is understanding about it. You know and and can deal with it. You know not everyone can obviously. It's a it's a tough lifestyle to be a part of. I mean I'm not it's not all roses and unicorns and stuff. You know it's there are days where it's you know I'm five time you know 5 hour time difference or you know and you know getting getting able to have those conversations. You know, it's it can be, it can be a challenge, but you know it's it's it's all about compromise and trying to make it work.

1:25:50 You know and hopefully and hopefully we can you know, keep on trucking down this road. Well, and and having the discipline and and, you know, just care to to, you know get up at the right time to make sure you make that call or whatever, like you know, the windows and to hit those windows and stuff. Like it's hard. I mean, again, especially when you're in Europe and she's probably got a regular good job and you know, she goes to work and so, yeah, well, good luck to you with that. Seems like you guys are having. Fun. I see your pictures, so yeah. We're Tran. We're Tran. Cool. All right, buddy. Well, it's good to see you, my friends. And you as well. All right, talk to. You soon? All right, buddy.