#197 - Han Henze discussed almost 50 years in the business

0:00 Hello. And thank you for joining me today on geezers of Gear. Episode number 197, today's podcast is brought to you by main light looking for exceptional value and flexibility in your lighting. Rental needs, main light, your trusted lighting, rental partner is now offering long-term leasing. You can now take advantage of up to 60% off, rental list, price with even greater discounts available after 52 weeks with this attractive, leasing options. And designed for a minimum term of 26 weeks, you'll find featured items from moving lights, leading consoles, truss and led inventory allowing your company to stretch its capital expenditures even further as a lighting rental partner, main light combines the resources of a national company with the Personal Touch of a local provider by consistently purchasing the latest technology and lighting truss and consoles from the newest trussing to a full array of lighting consoles your life. We'll have the tech it needs to reach Peak Performance, main light.

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1:55 France Ayrton has specialized in developing intelligent LED lighting solutions. For the entertainment and Architectural Industries are tens R&D Department both. Some of the finest experts in the fields of mechanical electronic and software engineering who translate new technology and avant-garde development Concepts into unique and original products from the moment of launch Ayrton Solutions, almost instantly became the choice of lighting designers and television production theater and high-profile events. Be sure to check out the latest latest ip65 Ayrton products, including the new Revival profile and Argos 6 wash for more information, visit www.aotw.tv you Hello, and again, welcome to episode number 197 pretty excited today.

3:17 I've got Han henze on really great guy. Been around the industry since I believe the 70s long time, and really good guy. Everybody knows. I'm everybody loves him. He's just one of those guys kind of reminds me a little bit of Bob. Harmon in Hawaii. Speaking of Ayrton has anyone seen these light shows coming out of Pro-Lite this past week in Germany? You know, Pro-Lite Ting and sound is obviously a huge Stone Frankfurt. Germany. I've been there 10 times myself but this Ayrton light show that they did as part of their Booth was incredible. Robi also didn't an amazing amazing show and others. I'm a huge fan of these trade show lighting, show extravaganzas and I'm happy to see them in full force again I mean for a while I think we went to these corporate sort of stand still products on podium.

4:11 Sort of booths. And I'm not a fan of those. I understand you need to have meeting tables and things like that, so that people can sit and talk about, you know, the year in business orders or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, I want to entertain people. I want people to be entertained on a booth. I want to be entertained on a booth when I'm there to look at stuff. And I don't know. I've always been a fan of it. I obviously put on a few of the really good ones. I was a part of them. I was lucky enough. Enough to be in a position to to do those back in the 90s and so, yeah, I love it. I love that that they're back in full force and again, I loved the Ayrton one, I loved the rob1.

4:55 I don't know that I've seen many of the I saw some stuff from clay Paki. That looked pretty cool, but it was more of sort of a as I recall it was a more stationary looking thing. It wasn't a show. So yeah, check that stuff out. I'm sure you can find it on YouTube, Facebook, whatever. Wherever, Get your video content and speaking of trade shows and speaking of pro light and sound, I've been reading a lot of comments online, talking about pro light, being a much smaller show this year, especially particularly with regard to audio companies who have bailed on the show. There apparently wasn't as much of an audio presents this year and it used to be a pretty big audio show. It was real big audio, real big lighting. And apparently this year, a lot of the audio companies Moved over to is in Spain and that has become a much more significant show from what I'm hearing.

5:49 It's more expensive. It's a very expensive show for manufacturers to do so it's harder. But, you know, I got a lot of these sort of quality versus quantity. Visitors, sort of comments from manufacturers this year which tells me a show is shrinking either that or it's a show being done during covid because we used to hear that about ldi and stuff when covid-19 on, but When you hear a show post covid that is that people are commenting, you know, the it wasn't as many people but they were good people. That to me is saying that a show is in a bit of trouble and so it looks like pro light and sound or Lighting and Sound. I'm not sure how they say it but it looks like it might be in a little bit of trouble.

6:33 I hope not because I think it's a great show as much as Frankfurt may not be my favorite place to go for a show. Ona kind of sounds like a better place to go for a show but you know, I've always loved that show. I think it's a great show and and I hope they figure out whatever. This problem is with the audio companies, ditching them and I hope lighting companies continue to support it as well. So let's see what happens next year. If anyone has comments on that or knowledge of it, please reach out to me. We can maybe do a follow-up podcast and talk a little bit about what's going on at Pro-Lite. Maybe even someone from pro-life hears this and we Can do a quick podcast about it, but yeah, again, especially audio Brands.

7:16 Maybe I'll talk to an audio brand and get them on the podcast and we can talk about that show and why is see has been better for them. We'll see another thing that I'm going to be very careful to tread through is without mentioning any Brands. I'm really disappointed to see some of the blatant copying going on again. And it reminds me of The late 90s, maybe early 2000s. When people weren't even trying to hide the fact that they were copying a product, pretty much identical product. It happened a lot, with the Italians. Italians were buying components from the same suppliers and then just sort of reshaping them into a different, but the same product, obviously a lot with some of the Asian companies Chinese manufacturers. And but recently, I'm seeing some stuff that You know, it's just bothering me a bit and one of the reasons it's bothering me.

8:14 One of the things I've always loved about our industry is the Innovation and really cool development. That goes on lots of cool products. Come out, lots of really, really great designs and ideas go into those products, you know, when you see things that you just go. Wow, that's really cool. And I've seen a few of them recently. You know certainly again going back to the Italians. Clay pakhi has always been an innovator, they've always been a little more Pricey than most companies. But there's a reason behind that. They're spending a huge amount of money on R&D and Innovation. And so, you know, one of the most recent examples of this problem that I've seen was a clay Packy product, I'm not even going to say what product it was, but it's a product that they showed at ldi, I believe, for the first time last year and was really cool was very different, very Innovative, a very crazy, wrinkle on some products that were already. He's out on the market, but very unique. And suddenly this year, I saw at Pro-Lite another rather large manufacturer who has the same product and I've only seen it on video and pictures and it looks identical to me. So that concerns me.

9:31 I mean again, because what do companies do, when product start getting ripped off, they either lawyer up and go to court, or they back off on Innovation. And I think either one of those things is bad. For us, bad for the market. And so, if you want Innovation to continue happening, if you want new products and new features to keep coming out at a high rate stuff that makes you go. Wow, then you have to support manufacturers who are coming out with those products, you have to pay slightly higher prices and and pay for that Innovation. Because when you pay for copies, what you're doing is, you're supporting the other side of that, you're supporting the side. That's not spending the money on Innovation. And so again, Again I'm not I'm not pointing fingers at any particular manufacturer. I think as an industry we've all done it. I think it's a problematic thing. I think it's why a lot of companies end up in court. I was talking to somebody yesterday about a, I guess there's something going on between Roscoe and etc' right now.

10:26 It's got something to do with ET C. Putting the Rosco colors in their console, and Rosco says that that's a breach of their intellectual Properties by using the Rosco numbers in your console. It's a funny one. Because again I'm not taking sides on this and I'm not a lawyer, I don't know anything. I'm just some dumb guy with a big mouth and a microphone but to me, you know, Roscoe used to be proud of the fact that people used our numbers on colors and the thing was, I guess it's supported their revenue back then because they were selling gel in those are colors and now they're not selling gel. So they're trying to find a way to I guess.

11:08 Monetize that Rosco chart or the the color swatch or whatever you want to call it. And so maybe they're going to charge manufacturers, I guess to put that in consoles which will probably just push manufacturers to create another coloring system. But anyways, again lawyers I've got a lot of experience, you know, I have sued a couple of the largest companies in the world and so sadly, I have some experience and nobody And, you know, I hate to be, you know, to say something so silly and generic, but nobody wins in that situation, you spend lots of money and at the end of the day, the one who's got the, most money, usually can Outlast the other one and ends up winning. And in that case, everyone spent way too much money, the lawyers got rich, and none of the problems were solved, so I don't like it.

12:02 So, anyways, let's move on to today's episode. Number 197 with Han and Z. Well, hello there, mr. Han. Angie, how are you today? I'm well how are you? I'm freaking fantastic. Any better. They'd be a Wednesday or Thursday. What day is it today? Wednesday. Yes it is it bad that we both have to think about it. Well I'm a little lost in the days of the week because I've been recuperating from this workplace injury so a lot of my time has been right here in our home and you know I fractured my pelvis and my left arm I can't tell all imagine people say, I fractured my pelvis like so easily and I think about where the Bell Is what that might feel like you know it's like it's the most searing pain.

12:58 You can imagine. How many think about it, what? So yeah, I was at the CMT Music Awards in Austin. They decided to do that show an Austin this year. And I'd actually finished my part working with Tom, Kenny lighting director on an outdoor stage and we shot that in the middle of the week. And Then we also shot a Crossroads and then I came over to the arena to do. The main show per se the the content we produce Tan on the outdoor stage was going to be inserted in the main show, right? Anyway, I was up on the stage, you know, helping the gaffer actually lighting director pickles, doing some Focus work and I kind I was up stage and they were loading up, which band was it?

13:49 I think it was the Tribute band for Skynyrd, which had all these, you know Pickers from way back / was one some of the guys from scanner. Anyway, it was like a all-star band set up. I'm just kind of up there looking at this gear going. Wow, that's that's a nice equipment. You know, a lot of vintage equipment and then I realize I found in the way and I turned to take a step to go kind of further off stage. Age and upstage left and their remember, there was a trust our there and a curtain. And I look down at the curtain and usually the curtain lands on the deck, right?

14:34 So I took a step with my left foot and there was no deck there, I fell off into a hole on my left side and yeah, fractured my pelvis and my left arm and I'm guessing you couldn't even move, right? Like you couldn't get No, no, no. They had to put me on a stretcher and went through the University of Texas had like a medical team there and they kind of evaluating then they transported me. So, I was in the hospital for three days and Austin boy, and then fortunately, where the pelvis was broken. The doctors told me, it was a non load-bearing area. So in other words, I could get up and walk if I could stand the pain.

15:22 Yeah. And it wouldn't it wouldn't make him furniture at anything other than nothing. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, the next day here they are the physical therapy. Nurses are trying to get me up out of bed and walking and I think I cannot do this. This this was the beginning of April 5 weeks and now you're walking and stuff. I can walk pretty good, you know, I transition from a wheelchair to a cane and my steps are pretty smooth. You know, I don't look like one of my PT therapists who are saying, don't walk like grandpa in the old sitcom.

16:09 Can't remember which one it was but, you know, he kind of lurching around and yeah, but So that's looking much better. Now, my left arm I haven't been released to load it up, so that makes it really challenging, you know, even using a computer, whatever they said, you can pick up anything, nothing heavier than a cup of coffee. No tea. So that's that's my reward. You break your arm here in the elbow Rotator. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a bone. It wraps around like that boy. So it's just, it's from what I saw.

16:51 The x-rays and pretty clean fracture just sort of a straight. Yeah, but if you will, and I don't think the bone actually displays but, you know, they, the doctors just don't want me. Loading it up and put pressure on. So hopefully next week I'll be released to go back to light duty work. At least I've got some projects coming up. Yeah, And I want to get back on location and damn, I'm sorry you had to go through that. Does the I don't even know if this is a good question to ask or not. But does the production take care of you in that type of a situation? Or are you just on your own insurance and stuff? How does well? So, fortunately on this production was on a pink contract through iatse, okay, which you may be familiar with so that contract goes through payroll.

17:44 All company called cast and crew. Okay. So they are the responsible party as far as workman's comp is concerned. Okay. And I've had tremendous backup from not only the folks that are work with its EMT. But also the people at casterly crew, there's multiple like account managers and nurses and everybody's following up on my progress and that's amazing. And and frankly had I've had had to spend very Little money on my own behalf and or said you have to know. Yeah, no I mean it it's one of the things that, you know, you hear horror stories in our industry of people with no savings, no insurance, you know, the typical Gypsy, you know, Roadie person, right?

18:31 Yeah and it scares the hell out of me, you know? Like I the last thing I want is to see someone, you know, who can't afford to deal with some sort of an illness or injury or whatever and I I've heard of loads of people getting hurt on Productions that were just basically, you know, flip the bird, you know, ya know, I can relate to that because one of my early jobs after moving to Nashville, I was basically told that when I went from a salaried situation to like you know gig and the artist basically told us look you don't, we don't I'm not going to carry any kind of insurance on this you guys.

19:16 So you need to go out and get your own insurance which actually was a great thing because it prompted me to seek health insurance which at the time was When I was a younger man and I remember it took us a while to kind of find it. Yes. A this is back in the 80s and also in the insurance company for an order for me to get to health insurance and made me take out a life insurance policy, which I really didn't want to do because I was so young and that I kept up all those years and actually was able to cash it in for real. The good return.

19:59 Oh, well, good, yeah, this is about 10 years ago. Okay, for you. Good for you. I love when people can spend their own life insurance while they're still alive. Yeah. Yeah. As long as there's money somewhere for someone to bury you, you know, who we're not responsible to feed the people around us for the rest of their lives. They can go fend for themselves like we did, right? So that's that's actually a really good segue to kind of Lead in, if you want to talk about my early career, know I'd love to because honestly I don't I you know I've known you because we've done business for the last 10 years or so but I don't go further back than that.

20:40 Yeah, I don't need 800, I don't really know, you know, where you started and how you started and and you know, just given your age similar to mine. I'm guessing, you know, you came from either you were a musician and you know, realized Used, it wasn't going to pay well, see, you found a different route or something? Is that a familiar story? Pretty, pretty much. Yeah, I played rock guitar and bands in high school, right? And it was me, my Junior and Senior year and, you know, started buying guitars and amps and all that stuff. And when I graduated from high school, this was in San Antonio, Texas.

21:27 And that would have been the It's 70s. You know I graduated in 75 it's kind of Tonio at that period of time was like a test bed or hard work Rock acts, they had a station down there, an FM station Kiss radio which was actually the first Ki SS radio and they would bring in a lot of Canadian acts. Actually detest them in that market because of all the Military bases. The demographics. There were really good for testing out, new bands and material. Wasn't it? Triumph that kind of broken San Antonio rushing to remember that from there?

22:12 From that sort of biopic thing that they did recently occupied. They broke them and San Antonio Rush some other American acts you know that some of them became Quite famous others. Not so much. Yeah. So there was a really diverse and lucrative market market for up-and-coming acts in San Antonio that period of time thing. So after a while I was playing in these bands, I decided to start lighting my band.

22:52 Right? Cuz, you know, didn't have any lights and I saw were a couple other groups and bars had used just like flood light fixtures, you know, your regular screw base. Flood lights had made these boxes. With one end open, you can put three of those ceramic floodlight receptacles in there. Go ahead and put your red was my room with my lighting rig, when I was a kid too. Absolutely. Exactly. And you just ran what three Edison chords, right? All the way back to something, whether It was a foot switch on the stage for me for me, I actually made my own console which was basically I think it had eight household switches and they were gang together on two plugs because I knew I could get you know if I could find the solid 15, 20 amp receptacle somewhere I could plug just about anything. I wanted in four on one side and four on another and so yeah made my own board and Had those floodlights. I acquired was, she's at term some theatrical fixtures along the way.

24:04 Yeah, they confirm a lure to, I think I had. And so really what happened was very soon. After high school, I was playing in this band and we were pretty good. I thought we were good and somebody had a Beer party said, told me that I suck at Guitar, so it's kind of stuck with me. I'm like, well, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am. Yeah. And so, I kind of graduated from playing into working for bands. Whether some bands, I was like, the backline guy, but mostly doing lighting and eventually actually got A house gig at one Club in San Antonio, so that had been my first paying job doing lighting. Well, then that would have been in those early days like that was, you were such a rarity, right? So like when, when people in town heard that this guy henze had, you know, some experience or knowledge and lighting suddenly, it was like, hey, aren't you that lighting guy, you know, and suddenly you've got opportunities to work with You want?

25:24 Yeah. It's, you know, some of the better bands, local bands would have lining guides, others wouldn't, I'd say the vast majority did and so I did that. And I also during that period of time when I, when I got out of high school, in order to make a living because that lighting stuff been paid crap, I was running, heavy equipment, doing construction, work, running loaders. And, you know, No track hoes and graters and all that stuff during the day. So I work at 10:00 hour 12 hour shift during the day and then go work in the club not. Oh yeah. Burning the candle at 0 to be a kid again, right? Totally.

26:10 I saw that was Challenging and I didn't sleep much. Yeah. And there may have been substances at the time. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. But me either eventually this other lighting guy. I had met approached me and said he said two things. He said I need a guy to come run a follow spot. And I was super show, and if you're good at it, I've got a road job for you. So your sound cut out for a second.

26:51 Are you said in an Alice? Cooper show. Yeah, propolis spot files, powered our supership but a carbon Arc, which I did. I had no idea, you know how carbon are well, many danger you were getting yourself into, I was ready to try and What's really interesting about this club? And you can Google it. It was a club called Randy's Rodeo. It's probably the biggest Club in San Antonio, at the time, the Sex Pistols played one of their, oh, few shows there. And here's another connection. Before I talk to this fellow about these two jobs run, follow spot in the subsequent wrote or I had gone down there and done a rush show with some of my equipment. Went and helped out another lighting guy from another local band who was opening for Rush and guess who the LD was Howard on the ladder.

27:50 Yeah. Now he, by the way, that's another really great podcasts. He listened to. He tells a couple stories on there that had me in stitches. One in particular, about a pony, you got it here that I'm telling you. It's a good one. Yeah. so, Anyway, I went, and I did the Alice Cooper show learned how to run the fall spot and keep the park in the right spot. And, you know, when to change the rods and all that stuff. And then I went from that, this can't remember his name for the life of the sld for this local band that. Okay, I'm going to train you To take my place as I don't want to tour with these guys anymore.

28:37 So the group was called the American Peddlers and really interesting bunch of guys, they were older you know in their mid-thirties here I would have been 23 at the time 24 and we're talking this was at the beginning of 1982 and These guys in this band could play, they had a little rock show, that was like covers and they had their own material. Then they also had they could do a country show. I mean, they can play country music, really decent.

29:18 If they, if they were booked in a country bar, they do that and put on that cowboy boots. And nobody would know the difference even though they had the long hair and everything and then they also had this like a Trilogy that was more like Dinner Show where it was three parts where you started off with the 50 and then they did the 60s, you know, with intermissions in between, and we did curtains, you know, little black box, and had the lighting and special effects and Mirrorball everything that worked really well for the trilogy show. So, they least guys they they knew what they were doing. They knew how to put on a decent show and do. So I think he trained me maybe one day. And then I went out on the road with them and they actually had some really decent equipment.

30:14 They had cd80 Democrats. I don't you remember those? Yeah, that's old, codger. Yeah. And two of those packs 12-way packs and they had the Strand board that would communicate with them because it is a special protocol is a little micro Flex connector and strand board was called a man tricks I believe and to see. But you could actually program looks on faders. I mean, it was state-of-the-art stuff for that time and then they own to follow spots to regular Troopers.

30:57 They had some wrong time. We're trusting and Park Hands, multi cable, which I've never seen before. Like, this is wonderful. You know, I could do six circuits also and so the band owned, all the gear they toured with all their own gear. Okay, cool. So and what else? You know, special effects. They had pyro pack. Flash pods with a little controller and all that stuff and dry ice machine, you know everything you needed to. To really do an interesting and full-featured type show. So they generally toward at like military installations Air Force clubs, especially some army bases, and then we would do regular clubs on the side.

31:51 And they had had a silver eagle used bus that they got from another touring act with a big trailer behind it. We had Genie Towers. We used to put super Towers in The Bays of the bus. His each other couldn't even close the doors on the bus because the genie Towers were much too crazy. But but Ron tower on top of the trailer and strap it down. And was like, what kind of venues the airman's clubs could be pretty big. Surprisingly. I remember the one at Lackland, in San Antonio was huge Club. Hold probably five, six hundred Air Force, you know, they're all In training at that point and very enthusiastic. Here's, I was think about this, they to get the power for the dimmer packs, right?

32:49 You know, because you're looking at with the number instrument, they had maybe 200 amps and we had feeder, but there was never a dedicated disconnect for that. So they had one set of Cam locks with giant alligator clips. It and they, we would open up a panel kid, you not open up the panel, go on the line side and clamp pose as a Taylor Swift, you'd be like doing this and Sparks Fly. Oh my God. Yeah, you know, I mean, it might explain some things, but when I was in bands, half the time, for some reason, I was always the guy that had to go up to the bartender and I was in the band, I was a member of the band, right?

33:37 But the lighting guy wouldn't do it in the sound guy, wouldn't do it. So I'd have to go up to the bartender and ask him to turn off the power on the stage, you know, so that we could connect to the to the thing on the stage, right? And so I'd go do that. That and then I have to go and connect to the onto the, whatever the hell it's called. And of course, half the time it was still hot and I'd be like, nah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, are you sure it's off? Oh yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, you know, and then you know buddy I don't know that I owned an amp probe.

34:19 Not at that time. You just basically turn everything on and you know, ask him behind If you're using the same disconnect as far, okay. Is everything on. Are we going to trip any Breakers? Yeah I think I'm gonna catch on fire. That's about all you could do. But yeah, so these guys in this band they've been doing this this touring for quite some time and that actually had made themselves a little niche in San Antonio through the guys in the band were promoters as well. Okay. And they they would get contracts to do touring a national touring Act. In the same venue that they work with their group, right?

34:59 And they would promote them and those contracts would usually be buyer provides. In other words, they the promoter would provide the gear there for me and the sound guy, they would send us out to do these other shows. We did shows for like dr. Hook Eddie Raven was a country act Reba McEntire. Fire back when she was a McIntyre. Yeah. And then they landed. For shows with Louise Mandrell, one of the mandrel assistance, right? The brunette. So we went out and took a U-Haul with all their gear and went out and did these series of shows and the last one was in Louisiana, I think and they the production guy and the guys in the band had all been coming up to me after the show's Main, and you do really good job working.

36:02 Clyde's. We don't have anybody. We need somebody. Well, sure enough. If that last show they approached me and the tour manager production, guys that look come with me out the bus. Louise wants to talk to you, I went out there and since I look really like you, you do a great job. Move to Nashville. You can work with us all the time, and I'm like, hell yeah. There you go. There's your brake home. Yeah. Big-time big-time Break Stuff. And you were in your mid-20s and you got to go home and tell your parents. I've got a real job. Finally, whatever. Yeah, good news is, I've got a job, the bad news is its in Nashville. Yeah.

36:44 Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. And, you know, I think my parents had already they'd moved out of San Antonio - oh, I was living had been living on my own until, you know, it wasn't that part of a pill and of course. Yeah. So you're just glad you've been in Nashville, a long time, Then yeah. Since Karen huh? An 82. Wow. Before. It was kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't much of a dragon went. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the whole, the whole country touring thing has changed so much because I remember like back in the day when it was TLS or banded and, you know, a dozen intelli beams, you know, and that was a pretty big country show, you know, was Was, you know, yeah. 40 40 or 50 pars and and and a dozen intelli beams and that was pretty much everybody like all the big country artist.

37:42 That's what they were touring with. You know, to me, it didn't really lighting didn't rate with most of the groups, especially, you know, lower level groups or even the mid-level group, lighting wasn't that important to you. Get really into the 2000. I mean, even prior that. Now, some of the bigger groups. Yeah. Oakridge Boys. You know in the 90s who else, you know, some of the really big Acts. They yeah. They had big rigs. Yeah. And we can talk about those as we get down the timeline. Yeah, it just didn't seem to be that important.

38:22 I used to really frustrate me really did because, you know, especially when you go off to do a like a one-off and you don't have your gear with you and the promoter. You know it's buyer provides a don't stuff is a bunch of junk and you expect, you know, yeah, I'd like to do a good job, same time I think. You know, like the nostalgic side of me, you know, as much as I've made loads of money selling lighting for Big Country acts and stuff, I think the rawness, and, and just the down and dirty, rawness of a Country tour back. Then compared to today, where they're just like rock and roll shows or pop shows today.

39:04 Right there, the same thing. Basically, you know, big video screen, loads of moving lights, probably bigger in most cases than the Rock shows, because they're making so much money. But it was just quite a back then, like, you know, it was just different, they were much more raw. And it was about the music and, and the sort of mood, not not necessarily the show and great. Yeah. So the and another aspect of all that is and I was very fortunate for my career, to take that path is that you learn what I would call the meat and potatoes. Early. You know I mean how to put a system together with just conventionals and you know have it interesting how not to give it all up on the first song and how how to hook all that stuff up? Make it work you know whenever you just walk into a gig and it's in disarray or they unload the trucks and nothing's prep, you know, that's what we had to do that all the time. Right?

40:10 So I thought, oh yeah. I toured started touring with Louise. And here's a funny note, one of the first things they asked me they said, okay, we're going to go out and We're going to start a run. We're going to travel from Nashville to Los Angeles and do a show at Disneyland. And they're going to have all the lights we need there, right? Okay. Great. And then, we're going to go from there to Portland. Maine. I'm like, isn't that like all the way across the country? And yeah, and they, you know, production guy said what?

40:52 And, you know, after that, we're going to be doing a whole bunch of county fairs state fairs. And you know, all the lights you'll need will be there. What it would, what can you think of that? You would need to do the best job? And the first thing I thought of was intercom because in those types of, you know, especially the fares, the intercom is always crap, right? So say, yeah, give me a clear calm system with two Bell packs and headsets for the follow spots, some cable and my own headset that Helped tremendously and then the other really good call. I don't know that I would have thought of that one but that's a good call very good.

41:34 The other the other item was a big 12-foot, A-frame ladder with the extension that goes up the middle. So you can get that joker like 16 feet in it, you know. Yeah. Because I knew those fairs, you're going to get some rickety piece of junk, the ladder, you know, and not be able to reach any that this is forget it. Yeah. So and they went out and bought that stuff and they put us in this truck. It was like a Castaway truck from Statler Brothers. They, you know, that they had grown out of it Mercedes-Benz. It was a Furniture truck, right? With the overhang over the cab and they had cut it where you've got sleeping quarters.

42:21 Yeah. Well it, what the, what they had neglected to do is to make a pathway from Driver's compartment into the sleeper, so when you got in the sleeper it was like it was like a door with the latches that the latches were on the outside. So when me and Dan, the production guy went and looked at this truck were like, okay, you get in the sleeper, you go on, you know, five 600 miles. He got some guy driving. How the hell do you get his attention? You know. No cell phones or anything like that? We didn't we didn't have radios. Yeah, how do you How do you get his attention? If somebody is, you know, in trouble, or you got to stop, you know, use the restroom or whatever. So we put these it did have like those slap glass windows like you see in old style campers, really crank them up and we could just see reaching out through those and getting arms all, cut the hell.

43:19 So, we eliminated those and put this Plexi on there, that way we could reach the latch on the outside to open the door. And also We could wave at the driver in the rearview mirror. Hey stop. Oh my goodness. What a system that is. We called it. The death Truck. Yeah. And we put we will put white Gaff tape on the side and put in Sharpie on their skull and crossbones death truck and we were driving through weigh stations and that was the one that you had to go from California to Maine in. Holy shit. When we left, welcome to Turin, son. What's my first show with her?

43:59 You know, as an employee there Disneyland was, like, I went from, you know, meat and potatoes lighting to this incredible set up the river stage or everything pops out of these boxes, all these pars and leak owes. And, you know, they got a computer console and then Gladiators so far away, you can't see the thing, you know. Do they all sort of much are they? I've walked up there and I go guys, you know, what do I do? How do how do you know I didn't, you know, it was like trying to figure out how do I explain them, you know what I do for her show and they're just like, you know, just tell us the colors you want for the songs and then Q the follow spot.

44:49 So it'll be really easy and it was it was super easy and and it was just amazing. Variants. And, you know, I realize that technology right there, could be your friend, you know, what the proper guys in the right places, you know, they could work really well. Yeah, so yeah, went from that to Portland and then all those fairs now, eventually, I think it was the following year, Louise and her husband Archie been decided to do like this Vegas type stroke. They really wanted to Jazz it up, they went out and had risers, fabricated me, and Dan Waters, made the engineering drawing for these risers, literally on a napkin, and their truck stopped, and gave it to a local manufacturing company for the risers.

45:40 They would stand up on their backs and roll off. They're really cool. We had a plexiglass I On the front of the Riser. Louise was backlit with many broads. Had a couple of the old boys, the Rosco smoke machine. The first one that came out. I remember, I can't remember how the heck we were triggering those things though because it was just a remote. And what else typically tubes? You may have those original rope light. Yeah, that goes all the way across the apron. And then on the edging, on the rise, ER, I had a little little controller for that we had pyro and what else confetti cannon. So we had this whole special effects package that we could come in and add, you know, using the house system and really make it, you know, a cool show, you know. And I mean we take this stuff into state fairs county fairs and the people just, you know, they never seen anything like it.

46:47 They were just blown away. Yeah, but controlling all that crap because this is, you know, you didn't have a board back then that would control all those different devices. So each one of those devices that is separate controller for it, which got be pretty crazy. Yeah. What up trying to trying to do an on dim over here? Typically to changing great over here and oh don't forget the Pyro Q, you know? Yeah. So what was touring like back then? From a, from a living standpoint, like you weren't on tour buses where you were, you staying in half decent hotels or well. Most of the time we're on the truck oh really? Well, yeah.

47:30 I mean we did get hotel rooms, you know, I would say maybe once a week but I mean, we were hit. I think that that second year I was with, or we did almost 200 show. I mean, it was, it was crazy him, by the way, remember I warned you about the roofing guy above my head. So yeah, he's just decided to come back and tweak some stuff apparently. So he was gone an hour ago, but now he's back. So I might mute my mic and between talk, okay, no worries. So yeah, it was a great learning experience. Plus it got you to Nashville.

48:13 Yeah. You know and it was well is that a cool place to come to Nashville? Like what are a cool time to come to Nashville or was that pretty sleepy at that point? Still? It was kind of sleepy. I mean, you know, Broadway was Broadway, a lot of honky-tonks down there. Yeah the Ryman was in a very sad State at that point they weren't even using In the Ryman, the Opry show was over, at Opryland park in that what they call the Opry today, which is the big stage and I believe TNN, the Nashville network was already up and running, okay? So that and that actually worked out really well for me. Because at the end of that second year with Louise like we're talking about earlier, she's laid us off from our salary and said well you can come back next tour and I'll hire you but you're done.

49:14 And this was like in middle of November. So here I was in Nashville without a job. So I went to The union hall and applied for a job and started working, you know, they didn't give me a union card right away or anything like that. You had to work certain amount of days or whatever, you know, meet all their requirements, go up for the vote, all that stuff, which I would really wasn't interested in all I wanted is work. Yeah. And so, while I was doing that, you know, I was exposed to some really big shows in the Auditorium there, like Van Halen 1984, I worked at, so just a monster. So when you say you work the show super you like a stagehand at that point or yeah.

50:08 On the lighting crew. Yeah. Okay, basically. Yeah, they started bringing in. They think that show pre-rigged at six in the morning for a mother grid about an hour after that. Trusted lighting truss is started coming in when Other good would go up and Marcel from that period on. They would bring in me tracks with lamp bars, non-stop one right after the other, it was like through lunch at like 3:00 wasn't that the one where there was like eight hundred pilot or something? It's insane. I can't remember. But it was a lot of a lot of land. Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

50:49 And and they lied. The crew, they were working them and shift. So you'd work the morning with one guy you know. Hanging powerbars is one right after another trust and fly up. Here's another one. Bam, bam, bam and also in this guy would leave, you're going. Okay, where do you go? Here comes another guy because you know they were doing, we're literally working nonstop, you know, I mean there may have been a break what a four or five hour break while they went from one city to another. It's just crazy. Yeah. What I was I was at the Genesis tour in 1984 the big first moving light tour. Yeah, and that that's where I.

51:36 I'm pretty sure I first saw Bill ones first time I saw any moving light. Yeah, and I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of that rig, of course. Yeah. It's just yeah, it was wild. Yeah, that's what gives me goosebumps. Because the crowd there, they just stole it is. Didn't look at the light rig? It just well, that was just such a big evolution for shows, like just it was like, whoa, we just went to a whole different level now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're sure. And so, I was getting a good exposure to the other side of the industry, you know, where the he was way out there and scale with much larger doing those types of shows and then also with the Union I started doing television stuff, you know, at local venues with tienen lighting directors, you know and you know at first I was kind of kind of sorted sort of interested in it but yeah I really like a rock and roll stuff you know you're glad that's okay, I'll go out, make a few Bots or whatever.

52:54 Right. Didn't think there was much art to it per se. Yeah. You know, was it? Do you remember, was it a different pay scale or anything or were you being paid the same? Whether you went on a TV on those you knew calls. It could be all over the map. Pretty much generally The Rock shows didn't pay as well. Yeah, you know depending on what position you were in? Yeah you know if that's what I was thinking like maybe it wasn't as fun but you made more money. No, The Rock stuff did not pay as well as TV. Yeah, he there. But you know, I back then, I didn't really care that much about the money. Yeah, yeah. So let's getting starting to get exposure to television and I think that the third year, I looked worked for Louise, we ended up doing some bigger shows where she was like a support act. They used to have this big tour called Marlboro country music. To her, okay?

53:54 And every year they would go out, you know, with a headliner and then pick up support acts, you know, they do probably, I don't know, it's probably 30 or 40 shows around the country and it it was big production. But remember Louise was booked on one and Someplace on the east coast. And we were the very first brute with the lowest group on the bill, right? So when they brought her band here to the stage for sound check, they literally had 15 minutes and I walked out the front of house.

54:35 Here's this giant Park and and it had vo ones on it rigged. And I'm going. Fifteen minutes. What can I get done? And guess who the programmer was? It was Jim wait Jesus. Oh yeah. And he said look, you need to look at these lights. He's moving lights as what you need to find. One or two, maybe three things that they'll do really well. That maybe you don't have that particular kind of light in the rig and use those likes to do that purpose. Maybe another purpose.

55:16 Let me program that today and then the next time you come back we'll get a couple more end and just build off of that and which was really kind of revolutionary thing because, you know, most of the guys that I've seen that when they walk in with moving lights with first-time, first thing they do is try to make them value right there. Moving little shit out of move Gotta Move. Yeah, that was that was not what I think what I did was that, that particular system Didn't have an audience wants on it from some odd reason, okay? That's it. Jim no audience license, use them for audience, like I said, yeah, great bam.

55:57 And that's what we did and then each time we would pick back up. Same thing, we do it a little bit more, do a stage wash, maybe do another stage wash and just methodically work your way into it to where your they serve a purpose rather than just willy-nilly. You know, did it all begin for point where the artist was saying to you? Hey why don't we have those other lights this time? You know, I really like those other lights or whatever like we're not at that time Louise was always more conscious of the follow spot. I remember that about her because man I tell you that those follow spots weren't spot on. Yeah, I would hear about it, you know, it's because she's old school.

56:46 I don't know if you've ever recognize this is that the old-school performers Apollo spots are their comfort zone, right? And if that spot is not on them at the right time, sometimes is even the right color, you know, they'll know it, you know, I'm not supposed to be in red right now supposed to be pink. Well, if you listen to smeaton's podcast, that he did with me, he talks a lot about that. Like, because he dealt with a lot of the, the Divas, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah. And you know, like Diana Ross and and whoever I don't even remember but, you know, he said that was always sort of the thing, the follow spots and especially you know, the color and the color that they didn't want, like never put green on me or never put this on me or whatever.

57:33 And they were very, very particular about that. If they ever saw a picture anything of that. Yeah, with particular color or, you know, whatever. So yeah, I can see it being pretty. Pretty intense about the follow spots for sure. Yeah. Generally the more traditional artists, you know, they just wanted them white, you know, open white and you know, I could sometimes talk them into, you know, a Flesh Pink. You know, that makes you look better, you know. And then if it was some kind of real emotional ballad or something, maybe get into a nice lavender, you know, you can usually justify those kind of things. But at that point, I never a really worked with anybody where you get to truly saturated colors on your Paula spot. I like watching.

58:24 Film of the older rock shows, where those of these had so much latitude on the follow spot treatment of talent and with good film, I mean, the one that really comes to mind. Think of, as Led Zeppelin Song, Remains the saying where the LDS using super saturated colors and it just looks so good. Yeah, you know? Yeah, it's a cloud. That's a good one. Yes, so great. Were you ever getting? So I mean you were bouncing back and forth between being in LD with, with Louise and and being, you know, doing shows as a hand or a part of the lighting crew or whatever had you decided by that point, basically, I want to be an LD. Like this is like where you starting to try and develop a tingle a little bit, and it was like a I don't want to go back to that.

59:19 I want to do this. Well, it's funny because a couple more senior guys at that, the union said we were out. Out on a called setting up some big HMI lights for tienen and we're in the back of the truck, you know? And they go hey hon, you know, you can come work with us. And and do that all the time and make plenty of money and not travel. And I said no, no. I think I'd rather travel. Yeah, you had the bug. I remember that specifically. Yeah, yeah. So so I stuck it out with Louise till the end of 84 and I think her career was starting to taper off the venue's from Britain getting crappier and crappier, I don't know what my reasons were but you know, I've walked away from that.

1:00:11 It ran its and yeah and then I think probably through my connections and working with the guys that tienen, there was a another lighting vendor and natural colored lights up owned by a fellow named Bob roach who recently passed? Yeah, yeah. I remember. And Minion. I knew Bobby. Yeah. Did you? Yeah. Unfortunate. But he heard me that would be the beginning of 85 and he had just landed an account for this Christian rock, group called Petra huh? That was huge the original Christian rock group really? Yeah well I think scriber came out maybe a year or two the same time but yeah I just was I mean they leaned into the Christian side a little more than striper.

1:01:09 Didn't really hide the fact that they were a Christian rock band but they went out as a heavy metal. You know Glam band not as a Christian band whereas Petra was a Christian band so very much so and so Bob went out and he the gear that he had up to that point. I think he had a little bit of PRP trust had a lot of Television stuff. And but he went out and bought. It must have been at least 30 sections of Thomas trust, you know, fully hum double-loaded. He got voiced, probably two dozen hoist. He bought three dimmer acts that he put on that show. LM Iraq's color scrollers, which were the original color map packs, right?

1:02:08 He bought two um 500's which was the state-of-the-art console at the time or Sith and I mean we was all these really cool toys when they hired me, you know, to whiting direct that show was going to take it over after associate is designed it. I'm like, yeah, I'm on board and they I was there, the day, they will those Stresses in the warehouse and we started building that system. I mean up I was like a total babe in Toyland you know I mean this is great for you it's real gear. Yeah yeah real gear and so we put that show together, you know and it's like 350 lights you know it's big rig. Some interesting.

1:03:04 The gear we had, I remember we had a it was the Democrats were DMX which was kind of knew at that point, right? And we had a an, a to d converter shoes will patch you ever remember that? I don't know, but it would allow you to soft patch dimmers two channels on the able board. So you came in with the 90 channels of analog and outputted. IMX back to the demo rack. So, and we had three trust follow spots and we hit the road with all that stuff. I think we're in for trucks MSI, sound the bulk of the crew were born again, Christian texts that okay, the band had picked up, you know, subsequent Ooh, that.

1:04:05 And here we were, we were contractors working for the companies. The MSI crew. They were their own thing lights up. We were on thing, right? We weren't it wouldn't expected of us too. How should I say be born again or to pray at the beginning of every show? Well, they did have prayer meetings after load out, which was actually quite nuts because the poor Christian Roadies, they never got any sleep, which was dangerous, because they drove trucks also. But so, Because of the churches and everything we had Wednesdays and Sundays off.

1:04:51 Right? And that would be our days and basically what the production manager told us was, look you guys. You secular gais on these days off. Just leave the hotel. We don't want to see you. Do your thing, go have your fun, and then come back and be ready to work the next morning. But that's what we did. And I had Pat Brennan was my electrician done quite well. I had Bobby care already and we had, we have really good times on Wednesdays and Sundays. Yeah, I would, yeah, yeah, I remember a friend of mine.

1:05:32 One of his first tours was he went out with striper and he was one of the guys who really early got into sampling and adding like sampled kick drums to the Dram to make it like just have that real fat and and clicky kind of bass drum sound. And so he got striper into using these sample drum sounds. And so, you know, he was like a guy that they loved on the tour and stuff. But he was telling me that, like, at the time, and I can't remember when this was probably late 80s, early 90s. He was telling me that, you know, it was very, very strict. Like, no alcohol, no cursing.

1:06:16 No girls. No like no no no no, no nothing, right? Yeah, no cussing, no smoking, no drinking, no women, nothing. No fun. Oh yeah, no fun. Yeah, Wednesday and Sunday. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it was. Unfortunately, the tour didn't do very well because the band was relying on the churches, the book The Show, So they weren't going through regular promoters. So if the church is dropping off, oh yeah, we started out, you know, selling Seven eight thousand seats and then it just started getting smaller and smaller.

1:07:01 So bam wanted to put the system back, kind of redesigned it did you know, a stripped-down version of it and kind of hang up held onto it, you know, till the summer time and eventually at one point I'm like, this is not for me. Yeah. You know, it's just become so Troublesome and just not enough meat on it. They the truth. Yeah. So, That would have been the end of 85. And I went out, and I did some television treats for Bob for lights up, you know, with pnn and got exposed to that a little bit more, right? And then at the end of 85 Bob called me up, I was on the road thinking Orlando.

1:07:51 He said, look, I need you to come on back. Because I've got a new door for you and I said, well who's it with? And he goes The Judds. I didn't know who they were. He had no idea that's so came back and it was a Kenny G. Steve Cohen design which was really cool. And interesting had like everything was based around this kind of quarter pie shape. We had pods with Par 46 ACLS and them clustered. For those, we had rollers a lot of soft goods.

1:08:35 A pink carpet is all really soft and feminine but it look just gorgeous really good-looking show. But we had a lot of we had to fabricate in the shop, you know, the custom pods and stuff like that. And You know, once we got him to rehearsal, I think it was about the time I got on the bus to go. Do the first tour. I finally ask. Okay, what's my deal there? And they said oh you just got hired by the band's management you're on salary. Oh yeah. So you're already working and you hadn't worked out a deal. Yeah, you didn't know what you're gonna be, okay. You 12 little too much, huh? Yeah again important.

1:09:20 Yeah. I get it. But I mean, ultimately, I know those, those kind of deals are still out there for the very first, the top-level guys, you know, get retainers to get full salary year round. They're just hard to come by and I wrote I wrote that for 11 years. Wow, yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So what was what what what you were LD or director? I was 12. So you kind of start to see a pattern develop here, right? You see where the band will bring in a designer right designers show, maybe Q, it maybe not even cute or whatever and off the design to a lighting director, that was my role, right?

1:10:08 So I think by the time I took the over that first judge design, I've kind of had it ingrained in me as my job was to replicate that design. Sign as closely as possible every night, right? That's what I was there for, you know, and if it meant using other gear or whatever because we couldn't use our gear, it was incumbent on me to find a way to recreate that. Look a little back to that, right, right. So, you know, everyone swallowed, I would bad a new song. Obviously, you got to got to do something to make it.

1:10:50 To have a look. So, you know, that, we're designing of song or whatever. Yeah. So, you know it I guess you could look at it as taking a backseat, But ultimately, you're out there doing a job here, working with the audit artist your, you know, what the crowd is seeing, you know, with the product that you've reproduced. Yeah. You know, every day, the way this industry Works to is, you know, the moment that you go in and chop, the designers legs out, you know, no, you don't do that. You've created and he won't for life. At that point, right?

1:11:31 Totally. And there's a very recent story that I'm quite aware of that I won't share with you right now. But yeah I mean it's you know if you're there to support the designer you don't go in there and say, Hey, you know, you could get rid of this guy and I'll do it for you for half as much money and yeah, no, no, no, don't do that. That is the sensible thing. You know what I mean? Like in many of these situations, you don't need a designer and a director necessarily but and the director half the time is As talented as the designer, if not more. So totally, but totally. But yeah, but I mean, it's a symbiotic, relationship, you know, and it's a respect thing, right? So, yeah, absolutely.

1:12:12 Yeah. So, yeah, you know, I thought that that design was so unusual. Interesting and cool that I really wanted to use it as much as possible. Unfortunately, the contracts that those, that their management and Sighing initially early in their career were catching up and they were all buyer provide fed system sat in the truck three-quarters of the time. And unfortunately, that really hurt lights up because they had cut a deal where they only got paid when we use the system boy. That's a terrible deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is out of our shop. We can't use it on anything else but we only get paid if, you know, in the audience Chance that the venue hasn't provided boy, what a lousy deal.

1:13:06 And I frankly our production manager wouldn't help in either because just because he didn't want to have to deal with it. Yeah, so yeah, we we that first year 86, you know, it got used, rarely 87. We changed it up a little Kenny G. Canaan in town, with change. Some color went from paint, the like some Purple or whatever. And but it was more the same. We're hardly ever used in the system and it was at the two-thirds of the way through that tour, that lights up holding.

1:13:46 Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately Bob God, Rest Your Soul, you did a shitty deal Jesus but uh, But what here's here's the really interesting thing, you know, a lot of that, that equipment that he acquired bought, you know, not only for Petra before the judge later. All kind of came through the Bandit way Thomas and Bandit and all that. Yeah. Well, guess who ended up with the system in the company? Who, and it lights? I Really they literally came out And Recent research, stencil the cases from lights up abandoned mines. I kept the same Tech which by that time was Donnie Lockridge. It's just great.

1:14:35 It was no change. It was just a different company. So and so, they established a relationship with the Jabs at that time, went quite well for a pretty long time. So you are on payroll with The Judds, for 11 years, you got Two regular paycheck every month. Whether they toured or not, they probably toward most of the time. Yep. Now that being said, was it comparable to what a freelance guy would get? Ya freelance LD at the time, maybe what 2,500 bucks a week or so I've been at the top tier. No yeah but it was a solid check and he came every week. Yeah well yeah you don't have to go out and hunt for four gigs of Time.

1:15:23 And yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of those gigs went away. If they still existed, they went away during covid, you know. Like, oh yeah, bands were just like I'm out. You know, they were tagging out those deals real quick, a few of them, like, I've heard of some really good situations where folks got paid all the way through covid but not that many. So so at what go? Oh I'm sorry go on oh you're right, go ahead. No, so I'm I mean there's a lot that happened in between there and and and starting key light and I want to get into key light. Oh, okay sure. But what, what are we missing between the mid-80s and and key light because I think that was around what two thousand two or three or something. Yeah, yeah well it's just judge a couple of different designs with, you know, I think candy gram came back a couple of times.

1:16:22 Designed with them. A couple of times we transition into moving lives and part of that was, we would when we went to the casinos to get a little more bang for the buck, we'd bring in a moving light system and really at the time, very light and and Orpheus, we're pretty much comparable and cost and equipment was pretty comparable, you know, Pasquale. Up to versus a v01 or what have you, but what kind of push the very light? Way was a trucking actually, as most of the keynote casinos, it was cheaper to truck it from Dallas than it was from the bay area.

1:17:10 So I actually starting at that time this have been like 88 I started to get in training. On very light equipment. I was one, I was told I was one of the first ld's to actually run the v01 board because you know, in the beginning, only their guys are in that board. Yeah, well we were so cheap, you know, our management said we'll use the system but you got to let it home on run it. So they trained me on that and Let's see that went. Well, we transition to Artisan and later model l2s. They hard?

1:17:54 Peter Morris become InDesign. One year. I think that would have been 89, which was a blast I loved working with Peter. I still like, he's just such a great great and he's never going to come kick. You off the board and say, let me take over. I'm going to show you what I need. You don't know how to turn the boat on, but I've learned so much working from Peter on his methodology on how to break down music and what to call the pieces because I had no idea. Yeah, this is a tag, this is, you know, whatever. Yeah, you know. So all that was just a huge learning experience for me and something else I'll never forget. So, That led up to you know Naomi's illness with hepatitis. We went out to do the farewell tour which actually lasted about two years.

1:18:58 During that time without a couple of videos, one of which Alan Branton was involved in and that's where I met Alan. So talk about done some stuff, huh? Yeah. When it came time to do the final show in Murfreesboro Allen, Brandon came in, brought his team kept me on the conventional board right for the last show. So big set, we added a ton more Bearer light and you know that was a great experience for me super emotional, nobody knew what was going to happen after that with Wynonna and everything.

1:19:40 The whole crew speaking out. Yeah. You know we don't know if we're going to all get fired or whatever so we get through that at the huge success and You know, Alan was super pleased. I remember talking to him a couple days later and then well, what what's going to happen to me? And, you know, and he said, well, their manager asked me about you, what, you know, what your skill set was, and I told them you were the best in the business. So that was a huge and I was helpful. Yeah. So we kept our jobs. We rolled into Wynonna.

1:20:21 One designed her debut tour. Of course I operated it following. That was the black and white or which combination of black and Wynonna, right? Peter Moores design, Mike's, Winterset, huge system. OB system would tell us cans and Vera life scrollers and just everything you can think of And that lasted for a year was pretty successful and then what would have followed that would have been a sort of a cut down here because she got pregnant, she kept me on salary. I went and did other stores while I was on salary with her. What's the stipulation?

1:21:15 The stipulation was if she says jump I got to say how high I got to come back and meet We drop everything. I did Little Texas, Tim McGraw designed for little Texas. That was a great tour 96. I came back. She came back, she done having babies. We did that a new album Revelation store. I designed it finally. Oh, wow. And yeah, it's really cool system. We had tracking pods and sixes and fives Bo fives and sixes. I used what were the HP? He's not some are golden golden tan. Mike swynford set.

1:22:02 It was a beautiful show and At the end of that tour. We've been struggling to get health insurance for ever from her management company and they just wouldn't do it. So I cut a deal with very light and at the end of that tour, I trained being Spurlock who's one of my ver like text operate that show. We redesigned the show slightly different configuration. It was quicker or whatever and it off the dean and I went to work Was time. It very light, really just because you couldn't get health insurance Well, it's pretty important because it was very expensive. Yeah, the time and and the very light deal with it hasn't gone down.

1:22:52 Any now I'll tell you that to the very light bill was comparable to what she was paying. So I it just was a win-win. Yeah. And there are some other factors there had gotten sober and being in that mix was probably not going to help that. Yeah. So they're like sent me out on Vince, Gill took over design from Sparky. Unfortunately, that didn't last very long, he came back. But that's whenever I started doing a lot of TV with Alan Bratton Peterson all that violence award show and that's when my really my exposure to moving lights and television really wants the moving lights. Yeah, yeah.

1:23:40 So that was huge. That's a great opportunity. You know. All those big shows. The big award shows with Alan, if I've been stuck on the road doing concert touring, I would have never gotten that exposure right to it lighting, somebody's face. Yeah. That's what that's all about. Alan will tell you, it's not about the wide shot, it's about potential. Yeah. That's what that's what do. You attribute? Your success in staying employed. You know without big gaps in between and all that stuff is it is it like hard work and to now NASA T is it you know just always saying yes is it what is it or is it just a combination of all those? Well I mean I used to think a lot of it was just luck and in the right place the right time and knowing the right people is and roll.

1:24:31 Yeah, skill set even within the lighting realm, there are all types of disciplines are lighting, you know, concert lighting you got special events. You got caught. Brittany. Got television and there's some guys that thought they do. They all they do is Corporate? Yes. All they know how to do. Yeah. You know. So it's having a good mix of all that. Yeah, I think it is really important and there's a lot of these out there that do Swiss army knife of lighting guys. Yeah, totally. So the very light thing went well, unfortunately, the Nashville shop At which, you know, it changed into vlps. Yeah.

1:25:18 Right. Virtuoso came out which I actually was part of the demo team for a while demonstrating the virtuoso DX. Great board. Did some tours with Mary Chapin Carpenter on the virtuoso DX, some of them were a land-grant institutions Ein last year was my design and then at one point, probably Lee. Been 2000. Maybe very light decided to take all their Road staff that works full-time and put them on as needed basis or contract. So they basically kind of kicked us out the door, you know? Maybe they will, they tell you, you're going to make more money, right?

1:26:13 Yeah, you know. So, So that's when I form key light. And yeah, and my first piece of equipment was a virtuoso DX that I bought through Bandit whites because they were very light dealer and so kind of limped along but that board, you know, still getting calls from Allen and all those guys to go out and do shows, you know, mainly using very light beer. And then I finally got the gumption to go out and buy some lights in the first lines. I bought from you for Turbo sybers, that Chaz had put on your site. Oh, really remember that fibers?

1:26:59 Yeah, I don't fly. Yeah. It was 12 fixtures. And so that kind of set that in motion into the Moonlight world, that's amazing. So One thing this is a funny story and it has a lot to do with this. The sex I had in my small business, I drove up with this little crappie jig and the producer showed up. It was had his own little company. I was sitting outside the arena and my truck and he pulls up in this big Hummer this giant brand-new Hummer and you know, George Bush has just done the new tax cuts and all this stuff I guess.

1:27:43 That would have been what? Early 2000. Yeah. So this guy gets out you know it's exact hey man I'm all this and he knows you could have one of these too. George Bush will buy it for you and he goes with the new depreciation schedule. You can buy this for business purposes and write the whole thing off. At the end of the year, I'm like that just doesn't make sense. So I kind of got the wheels turning right and Found out for my tax account.

1:28:26 Yes. You can do that. However, if you ever sell that truck that's capital gains and you'll have to pay taxes on every bit of that. But what it said in motion was Because of the different depreciation levels. There's three different schedules at that time. I don't know. Now, you can play that from year to year. So if I bought another group of Lights from you that I got 30 Studio colors. Yeah. Paid 50k or whatever. Yeah. Use those lights all year long, make bunch of rental, money from them, right? I go, I take another depreciation schedule, or it Maps it out over five years or whatever. Then a couple years down the line. I stole them.

1:29:17 I can actually sell them at a loss and come out ahead on my taxes, that's wild. Yeah. And I remember when that was kind of going crazy, because I remember all the guys that were buying, these Wicked, beautiful, trucks and stuff. Oh, yeah. And they were just like Hey, I gotta do it. It's free what? But missing the point I'm trying to make is that that served me really, really well. Moving forward. Yeah, being able to take those groups of light and use the depreciation. Yeah, and I did that really well until the flood hit. Yeah. And a skill in 2010.

1:29:59 So what happened? How did that hit you so bad? Well, I had my gear down at the Mitchell Group. Which is down on Cowan Street. Just literally few steps away from soundcheck and It came up in the warehouse like 45 feet high and I had just about all my gear was in there and at the time I think I had 60 60 heads. I had consoles. The only Council a lot was a ma-1 light for that was 35 K right there. I knew I'd get you one for about 1,000 bucks now. Maybe less.

1:30:44 But Yeah, I'm pretty much lost everything. Now, the good news out of all that was So that's 2010. Iams insured, at least. It was but excluded for flood. So when I called the insurance agent up, right? It was Hartford. I said, okay, you know, this has happened. What am I going to get out of this? And he goes, he actually went down there to look at the stuff and then we talked and he said, well unfortunately, you're excluded for flood. I'm like If I'm not going to get coverage for flood, what do I get coverage for? He goes all well, sinkholes think of us up on you? Yeah, there you go.

1:31:34 Oh my God, nothing out of insurance for that and you have virtually 100% loss. Yeah, yeah. Only the only piece of equipment that was out on tour was a Ma-1 full-size that was what 50,000 dollar board. Yeah. And The rest of the gear, I brought it over my house. I rented a shipping container and put it in there and started working on it trying to salvage. It it was just awful but was going to say was a good news. Was I was Full-time, CMP, they hired me in 2008 and Studio lighting designer, okay? And so that business was kind of a side business at that point and my house wasn't flooded.

1:32:27 I had a full-time job. So in that regard, I was fortunate because a lot of people didn't have that. Yeah, you know a lot of people lost everything period. Yeah, I was brutal time. No good. Buddy of mine. How Mandy, you know him I do he bought had some bl3 case spots and he actually took those eight lives and strip them down. Completely replaced. All the steppers and made good money off of them. For next 10 years, you want to hear a quick crazy story. So when Hurricane Katrina hit, you know, New Orleans and and Biloxi and all that stuff, We got a call about six months after Katrina, from a salver, and the salver had taken over The Grand Biloxi casino, and they had the insurance had just settled and everything. But the stuff had been sitting exposed in The Grand Biloxi casino in Biloxi and so, like a whole wall was gone out of the place and it was just the Gulf of Mexico right there, you know. Oh and and so between actual water coming into the venue and just exposed to Salt Air and all that stuff. It was it was a bad situation.

1:33:51 So they called us and said look, here's the situation, you know, come and see what you can see will give you 24 hours or will give you a day of Daylight to come in and take whatever you want to take out of there. Give me a price and so we worked out a number and it was as I recall it was probably 30 VL 3000's, maybe twenty four washes, a v dusk sound system. All the amp racks consoles, some follow spots. It was a lot of gear. It was quite a bit of gear and so you know we we had this this side business that did these types of liquidations cleaned the gear up and then would put it up for sale on gear Source this stuff.

1:34:38 We had no idea what we were getting into. You couldn't plug in anything and see if it I worked or anything, right? It was just it had literally been sitting six months exposed and so we bring it all back to South Florida and I get a call from David million. He says, you got any vol 3 thousands? And I said, no, and I go wait a second. Actually I have like, you know, 48 fixtures or whatever washes in spots that just came out of the Grand Biloxi. We haven't even tested anything yet and he said, well, do me a favor just like plug-in like Eight of them and tell me if they turn on or not and we plug in the first eight and I think all eight of them turned on. Yeah, and he goes, okay, I'll take them from you for x amount of dollars per light.

1:35:24 And I don't remember, I think at the time vol 3 thousands were the hottest thing and they were selling for like 6 grand on the used Market or 6500, BTUs Market, I think I sold them to him for 2,000 or 2,500 or something, but he had to take them all. So he took all of them he used out. Of the call it 48 fixtures. He used like 40 on a gig that weekend. Wow. And so he used these for like a year and then resold them on gear source for like, you know thirty five hundred or thousand bucks each or something, right? Yeah. Because by then, he had replaced, any Rusty screws or Rusty parts, or separate or whatever it was. But I mean it was just a crazy story like I the V task system sold within a couple weeks and it's sold to Claire Wing. I think it was like 175 Grand or something for like a three hundred thousand three hundred fifty thousand dollar. Vetoes Greg, everything worked perfectly, none of the speakers were blown or anything it was pretty cool. I mean it was wildly.

1:36:24 What I went through I went I heard stories that down at the opera house, they had mostly very light system and they were taking down instruments that were up, you know, the Opera House, the stage, the water came up to about the stage level. And I believe his what I saw and pictures do anything, that was on the floor, whatever got saturated. However, they had all this equipment up in the air, they literally went in there and took those instruments down and threw them in dumpsters. Yeah. Wow that's crazy. Yeah I didn't give anybody a chance to. I think there was this big concern about the because that flood you know, was the Cumberland and all the effluent that's in the Cumberland and believe me, the mud and stuff I found in my lights, it was bad stuff and stuff. Did you get your stuff working?

1:37:25 I like I said, how did I mean myself? And just got to the point Marcel were, I would work a full shift down at the studio, and come back home and work on moving lights for 45 hours after about a week of that. That's it. I can't live like this, I can't do it. Yeah. So you know I sold some other lives to some other guys for pennies on the dollar and yeah, just got rid of that. This one worth it. I did. I limped along like that a little bit, I bought some more. Fixtures from freed some Malaysian spots. Yeah and I've tried to run them through through CMT but their production was doing much. So eventually it just got to the point where kind of sold everything off and, you know, I could still use the name of the business of doing my contract work, but even that after a while carrying the insurance and then all the taxes associated with small business.

1:38:23 Yeah, it's not With it, it's not worth it. You know. So you just cry can just yeah, with turned it off. Didn't you end up at Morris at some point? I did. I did 2019. I work there all year. Ahead of lighting department, it was super intense. We had some major clients Kenny Chesney Old Dominion, Florida. Georgia Line. All those are 300-400 light system. Yeah, we Sent out BTS that year or six shows around the world. It was like 600 like system.

1:39:05 So you know I was managing at one point I counted up all the freelance and staff and permit Lance workers I was were like 60 or reporting to me. Wow. And so, The only way I could make my way through that Marcel was you know fortunately I had the background of running my own small business but the whole managing Personnel like that. It's that's a lot. Yeah. So well you've been there. Yeah. I mean what's the most employees? You've had under your well I've had a couple of companies but at the same time maybe 50. Yeah.

1:39:50 Just in gear Source. I think we got up to about 20. T. At one point. We're at about 14 right now because we run a different ship now. So it we don't need quite as many people but right. But yeah, it's it's tough. I mean, everyone thinks you're a business owner, hon. You got it may do you know, you work twice as hard as anybody else to, usually make half as much as anybody else. You get all the stress hardly any of the, the joy. And yeah, I mean, I'm not complaining. Planing because it's all I know how to do anymore. I don't know that I could be an employee anymore, but you know, it's certainly not as glamorous as it appears, you know.

1:40:34 It's a lot of hard work and stuff. You know, we had the best year that come in ever had at the end of 2019. We were prepping, Kenny Chesney to go out yet again, when covid hit and it just kind of turned into. Dumping, you know, with all the zoom calls, you know, with no business. Yeah, I mean, you know what I mean? It's just got to be Surprisingly more stressful to deal with than actually being in the shop. Yeah, it went weird. They're like yeah, I bore they sold to so low-tech. It went weird and and, you know, they were like I remember we got a call from them and they said, we want to sell I don't remember. I think it was like 400 clay Paki. I forget which fixture.

1:41:23 It was Meet those me. So see ya at a price that was like, 40% below the market price and we went. Those will sell pretty quick and they did, we were selling them as fast as they would let us sell them. And, and then all of a sudden, you know, I started hearing rumors about so low Tech coming in and then, you know, we got a call saying, hey guys, we don't want to sell anything else, you know, everything's off the table, so then yeah, it quick. So I just bailed out and frankly, I went back The doing something. Totally different than the lighting. I did the heavy equipment thing and it was really hard work. Yeah, but I was, I was in a cab.

1:42:08 I myself. Was that? Because of covid was that? Yeah. Because colleges killed our industry, so you had to Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. And, and like you say it's something I enjoy, you know, I like running machine but, yeah, just a lot of fun. It's what every kid wants to do is drive one of those things with the big thing in the front and, you know, Pick up a boulder bigger than a car. There's not many things more masculine fun than that, right? You know, you know but in the meantime, I was still doing gigs, you know, and I'd already developed a really strong relationship with Tom. Kenny, why was that CMP we'd already been doing you know, artist of the year together and Crossroads you know, me working as a lot of director or gaffer or whatever implementing his designs doing.

1:42:58 His drawings. So even even through all that was, we maintain a good relationship. I would take as much time off as I can take, you know, and do gigs local gigs with them. Yeah. And make nice little lumps of money, you know, which and and plus keep one foot in the business. Yeah. And so you know, and that's kind of where I'm at now. I mean it's interesting Somebody made the comment. I thought you were retired. No, not really. I don't know that I'll ever retire. Yeah, I'll keep doing this as long as I can. Yeah.

1:43:40 And you know, it's really enjoyed. I was so fortunate. Last year was my best year ever as just as for services work. Yeah, you know, excluding key light and rentals and all that. Yeah, just do engage. Last year was the best year ever. That's fantastic. I actually designed three television shows. I did the tribute for Naomi Judd, at the Ryman, another one for Loretta Lynn at the upper house and then kind of a really full circle experience for me, we went back to the Murphy Center and did a another final show with Wynonna in tribute to Naomi.

1:44:28 Me. So the pay-per-view that we did what 30 years ago were basically kind of doing it again. So for CMT, with all these guest artists and designed with pretty large rig, I had Fuji their programming. Wonderful programming. Can Hudson was on another board and it just, I put everything I had on the table to get it done and it turned out really, really good. That's awesome. It's really cool. So, you know this year, are you a heavy equipment guy or a lighting guy? What are you doing? A mighty God. I don't think I'll go back to that. I was so worried about getting hurt out there on those machines and that's incredible, isn't it?

1:45:17 Yeah, that's wild. I mean you've done some incredible stuff. It's so cool. And and I mean the longevity and the fact that even through covid you've never really been out of work, you know? So that to me, says, a lot like, you know, the guys that I know who are like, for six months, trying to find a gig or whatever. There's a reason, you know, they're sadly, there's no reason you should probably change something in the way that you're doing things, you know. And one of the one of the themes that always seems to sort of thread through everything. Cosmo was one of the guys who said it, most of the LDS and people who come on my podcast, say it is, is just say, yes, you know, that's one of the The one of the things that you need to learn to do is just say yes to everything. And if you don't know how to do it, go figure it out quickly, you know.

1:46:06 And right, there's there's many times when you actually have to kind of Subjugate or come off of your vision because the customer wants something else. I mean, you know what, I, you know, a producer, a director, you know, even though you've created something, you think is stunning and amazing and all this. And they have an idea that like, who, yeah. You know, you really don't want to do that, sometimes you have to do it, you know, boss, exactly. Some people seem to forget that, you know, you're not the star. You're not the boss.

1:46:47 They are. Oh yeah. Right. You're just supposed to make them look really good to their Vision. You know, they're the one with the vision. Not necessarily you, unless they just say, I don't got anything. Please tell me what I can do. Tell me what I need to look like, tell me which song to sing. Yeah. Doesn't happen very often I guess. No, no, yeah. So I like to, I like to end each one of these with this, like go to gear. I'm a gear guy, obviously. Yeah. So what if you have to design a show right now? Give me your three pieces of gear that you got to have for every show whether it's specific to manufacturer. So, let's do that. Okay. So because I'm television guy, we're going to start with the key light.

1:47:31 And right now, I think. For the long throw applications. It's got to be the new Row. V Forte is a stunning light. Yes, really good. I mean right behind it. My second choice is a proteus Maxima. I mean they're both great choices, they're both really really, really really are. Yeah and then as far as a backlight, Same thing in a longer Pro application, usually don't need the Firepower that you need from your key lines.

1:48:14 Although Fork again is a good pic but if it's a shorter throw application, I would use the Spree or feel 2600, you know, both to those are really good lives that's in the profile. Is, that's really where my realm is. Whenever an LD hires me, is the lighting director on a television job. He expects me to light the faces, anything that hits the talent, I'm responsible for that. Yeah, and then, And then, all the flashy stuff is somebody else? Yeah, that's yeah. You know, but we got our key light. We got our backlight.

1:48:54 I have to pick a wash fixture which What do you know what? I really like the razor. 60, as just as a wash picture. I know it doesn't pixelate like the other guy. Did you raise their 760? Because we do that for a second. Yeah. Razor 764 a relation. Of course. Yeah. That's not really it. The field and everything. It's just it's really nice. Yeah. Oh that's a fantastic fixture. What about control? What do you use them for a console?

1:49:34 These days. Stone grinding. Make three and ma2 mode. I haven't totally taken the leap into M83 mode yet. I will eventually. Yeah it's just learning a lot of its or right. Yeah it's tough to tell you wouldn't believe how many boards I've read? Ya know, I would believe it, I would believe it, but you gotta do it right? I mean it's like yeah you have to I was doing my half-hour on Facebook this morning at some point and I saw some LD who's out on shows somewhere in Europe right now or something. And he goes. Hey everyone. Quick who can tell me how to learn a Cam sis board really quickly. What's the best way to dive into a camps as board? I've got a gig like next week or whatever and I need to know how to run that board and yeah.

1:50:25 I mean it's crazy but it is, I mean, you gotta like I said, say yes right? And then go figure it out with a board. It's a little tougher. I mean, well, I was spoiled because in on the very light consoles, we had the training and they sent you down for two or three days. Yeah, and then you took a test at the end they took, Played a song say okay. You design a show. Yeah, with this console, but we want you to do this this and this we won't use macros and you want to use effects here. Yeah. And you had all that laid out in front of you and you've got to step up to the plate, you know, and they would rate, that's a pretty luxurious way to learn. You know, you're getting paid for it and you're in a nice shop and all that stuff.

1:51:06 Like a lot of guys, I know they borrow a console for two or three days from a shop and they just dive into it for 18 hours a day. Yeah. And that's all yeah, I'm with the offline visualizers. It's yeah, it's doable. Yeah. But having an instructor there to walk you through each and every element of the console. Yeah. I mean now with a like a grand in May that would be like a week because it does so much so much. Yeah. And and then beyond that to retain, all that information to take it with you and do a job is that in itself is Turtle. Yeah, because if you aren't doing job after job after job on that platform, you're going to lose.

1:51:52 You're not going to retain all that information. Yeah. Muscle memory and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, I talked to so many designers and operators and directors and stuff about, you know, the switch to the ma3 from the ma2. And to me, I, you know, I'm an idiot. Like, I just think, well, why wouldn't you just do it. It's got new stuff in it, right? I love new stuff. Who doesn't love new stuff? Tough. But the thing is like, I'm used to all the buttons where they are. I'm used to certain tactile oil and all of those tips and you're moving so fast. It's all like right from muscle memory, right? And now all of a sudden it's a different syntax. It's a different, you know, you press this button twice instead of once or you got to press this one and then this one, instead of this one and then this one or whatever. And so yeah, I mean that really a trip to be A lot like that made people pissed right off like the guys pissed, right off, you guys and girls?

1:52:51 Sorry, I'm not trying to be sexist, but yeah. So you know Ma has fought an uphill battle on that and plus they got the worst timing in the world because they launched the ma3 and then covid hits, you know? Oh yeah. So it's not like people could immediately go out and learn the thing and use it because they had a year off or almost two years in some cases. Cases so weird. Well, the Lucky Guy's. It has a board that home that was our chance to learn it. Yeah. There were a couple of them that did, you know. And I've talked to him about about the whole ma3 thing and it's a different Beast.

1:53:31 It's so but I will have to learn eventually if I want to continue to run these boards. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's where it is well and then I know some guys that are like up there in years who are like, Screw it. You know, I'm not going to learn it. I don't want to learn another board right now, that's just where I'm at, you know, and I get it, you know, it's like me with snowboarding, you know. I don't want to learn to snowboard. I've been skiing since I was eight or nine years old, I don't feel like, falling down and hurting myself at this point, you know, doesn't make sense. Well, we didn't really get to touch our know about. We have to, we got to talk about Racing for a few other sports. Yeah, we would be remiss to not.

1:54:15 At least touch on racing because I know that you're I know you love the autocross stuff. Have you Advanced Beyond autocross or do you still do autocross? Well, you know, about six seven years ago. My wife bought me a package to the Porsche sports driving school barber. Yeah, for a weekend. Barber to good Lord. Yeah, let's let's go. That's for school at Barber is unbelievable. Let's let's drive a 911s. Yeah. Or a caiman as or let's get in a four-door Panamera S and go 130 miles an hour around that track and do the e-cars to the electric ones. Oh yeah, they've got them out there at the school and, you know, it was such a cool experience. The you do the skid pad, heel-toe shifting, launch control, and a 911 turbo.

1:55:10 That is awesome. When did you do that? Oh, it was It's got a been seven years ago at least and so for people who don't know, Barber is this track. That's in Alabama, that is unfreakin believable. Like the guy who owns it must be a trillionaire because he has just, it's like a country club for racing, but yes, but times 10, you know, it's like the landscaping and The Hardscape is just on. It's it's like, you know, Augusta. That's sort of what it looks like. You know, it's so beautiful and waterfall, you know, Jeremy, my son the first time he drove Barber, he goes Dad. I said what he's like, you know, I'm driving around the track. And I'm seeing like waterfalls and beautiful birds and trees and stuff.

1:56:02 This place is nice and I'm like what are you doing? Looking at scenery, you know, knucklehead but we we paid a little extra and instructor that's what we're doing. We're doing follows on the track, right? The instructors in the GT3 you know and say I'm in a 911s and there's three or four was behind the instructor instructor you know you're following him and you'll make a couple of laps and then we'll move you up the next car behind them. Whatever. And say me said, yeah, this guy is in there, he's got one hand on the wheel. One hand on the walkie-talkie because he's watching you in the mirror. Yeah. Don't don't drive like mr. Magoo. Yeah hands you know. He's going 130 miles an hour around the track. Not even really, even looking at the track. Yeah.

1:56:50 Is he knows it so well and that's why it's a. Did you ever get to break loose? Or did you always have to do lead follow? Yeah, you always have. Yeah, yeah. Whoo. Yeah. Yeah. Those brand-new Porsche has they're not going to let. Yeah. Yeah that's that's sucks though. That would have been fun if you because I mean it's so amazing to just go out and drive. And Lead follow. But when you have to figure out where the lines are and everything on your own, and we're to break and where to enter and exit the turn and all that stuff, it's just a different level. Well, so it was pretty easy for me after doing cuz I'd have been doing autocross for five or six years at least. And so people who don't know autocross is what it's basically, a Time course, and a large asphalt area could be a parking lot or And use pylons or cones to Define your course, the courses by scca rules should not exceed highway speed, so 70 miles per hour.

1:57:57 So you're probably never going to get out of second gear and it's all time. That's not wheel the wheel and the it's broken down into different classes, so you'll be competing against cars in the same class, the horsepower handling And then there's prepared modified. It's apples for apples, but it really comes down to drivers skill and because it's so precise it comes down to a thousandth of a second as far as your you're standing and it's relatively inexpensive. Although some of the guys that our way into it Ben 10's of 20 of 30, that's 1,000, anything a motor sports is like that. Like you're doing cheap or you can go crazy, you know, and I mean, the thing about autocross it always turned me off was just the amount of waiting.

1:58:55 Like you end up waiting in line forever to get up and get your chance to one run. Run one lap around this, this autocross track, did you not so did you drive an autocross course I did and like a mini or something? I think it was a mini, like, literally probably 30 years ago, did you not get this huge Adrenaline Rush right when you're leaving the line and you're thinking about the course and everything, You know probably not. No, I don't think so. That's unfortunate. So I did. Yeah, yeah, no, I know how people love it. It just it never appealed to me for some reason. Like the whole one lap thing, you know, I need 24 laps just to get interested, you know, and get excited. And then start really hammer and when the tires are warm, you know?

1:59:41 So the difference for me, a barber, I thought it was fun. And challenging and exciting. However, I got motion sickness. Did you really in the driver's seat kit was because I do in the passenger seat, not in the driver's seat. I think it was a Contours because Barbara's got a lot of change. What's the amount of adrenaline and and stress and everything else that you're going to? Like I don't want to wreck this hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Yeah did you go to the course you probably went to the museum at Barber? I didn't have a chance for some people. They kept god, listen to what are you doing? Well is one thing after another if you were not on the road course, you were doing the skid pad or they just kept on taking out to go back and just go to that museum.

2:00:28 It is unreal. I mean there's like every motorcycle that was ever made like from the very first one, which is like a bike with a tiny little motor on it. Yeah, you know, they have every motor the like literally thousands of staff Act up motorcycles in this unbelievable Museum. Formula cars being in from the ceiling and stuff because they just got no more room left, you know. It's on with the the owner to motorcycle guy, right? Yeah, yeah, that's what I heard, yeah. I know. It's a yeah, you know what else up by you near Nashville, my son went up there for for just some testing before he was leaving for England. A couple years ago, he was going to England to race in something called the formula.

2:01:12 Festival. And he had never driven in a Formula Ford before, and so he's going over to race. The biggest Formula Ford race in the world, which is a very historic fifty-year-old race that runs once a year and you get formula. You get Formula 1 drivers driving in it and stuff. It's crazy. It's such a cool race in England every year, but he was going to race in that and he'd never driven in a, he'd never even sat in a Formula Ford. And so, We actually bought a car for real cheap, and we went to do some testing in Tennessee at a place called pole star. I think it's called pole star.

2:01:53 It's like, yeah, you got to look this place up. I'm telling you it's a great place that you will end up spending the rest of your retirement money there. Yeah, but it's called pole star. And they have a school there, where you can race in open-wheel, cars, or you can drive in open-wheel cars in a school and but you're not going to lead follow. You're actually out there driving the thing. And, of course, it's a course, it's a track and it's a crazy gnarly little the hard to drive track, it's like a go-kart track but for open-wheel cars Oh, okay. I mean, you can take other cars out there to like, you know, because so yeah, I would look into that. Like the people that run it or really nice people, it seemed like it was very moderately priced and stuff. It wasn't expensive and you can drive their car and go out and they'll they'll kind of show you the ropes and then you just go out and drive it.

2:02:45 And yeah, well I've never been an open-wheel car. You know I'm pretty much stuck. Duck with the lappa dated Porsches, mainly from the eighties, you know, 944s 924. Yeah, they're, they're they're they're great old cars. I can buy inexpensive and picks him up and, you know, either track them or just keep them on the street, you know, and pass them on to somebody else because where I find them as in fields and neglected, and I was like Farm cars and stuff and then I read them up. And yeah, that's cool. Little abandoned puppies to me, you know?

2:03:26 Well, you know what, that's a great hobby. I've got a friend who does it with, you know, old Cutlass and like the 60s and 70s American cars and he does very well. He buys it, he cleans it up a bit drives it for six months or a year and then sells it usually for a fairly handy profit. So it does really really well with them because he knows the market like he's buying very specific cars that he knows everything about so yeah and That's where I'm at with these, I know, know my way around them, so good. Yeah, you know, I can go out there and just kind of look the thing over even though it's covered with dirt and, you know, my stropping zone, the interior whatever.

2:04:07 Yeah. You know, you can kind of, you can see the signs of a Hidden Gem. Yeah in there. Yeah. What's it called? When a great hobby? I wish I knew how to do any of that stuff. But I don't I just need to. I need to be the guy on the other end that buys it from a Han after you've fixed it up. And Cleaned it and made it nice and make a nice profit off of me. That's unfortunate. You're when you're ready for report when you're ready for a Porsche be. Come see me? Yeah. I'm not much of a guy. I don't know why you could be. Yeah. All right, hon. Will II appreciate you doing this very much? It's been fun and humor. So here in your story and nice to nice to see you, I haven't seen you in a hundred years. So thank thank you for your support over the years. You guys did make some really good deals and supported my business and, and others, you know, Bob Warden, really helped me.

2:05:01 Yeah, some of the guys that freed sales, they helped me out. You know, I was never a dealer, but I still able to get that pricing. Yeah, so, you know, that's that's that means a lot. Well, you know what? When you're a good, dude, most people do want to help you and you're going, you, I actually at the front end of all of this. I do a little intro and I compared you to Bob Harmon, you know, because you're just a guy that's been around the business of very long time, you'd never screw anybody. You're a good dude you work hard and that's you and that's Bob Harmon and you kind of look similar to this. Oh, ok. Awesome. All right hon, thank you very much, buddy. All right. Have a great day sir.

2:05:42 Bye-bye.