#195 - Jim Marlowe... one of the godfathers of HD projection

0:01 Thank you for joining us today on geezers of Gear. Episode. Number 195, today's podcast is brought to you by act entertainment, the new Robert Juliet, Sully for see, Zoom profile is likely exactly the fixture you've been looking for. Whether you're seeking versatility or trying to match fixtures in an existing rig, Robert Juliet's color, software allows you to create the exact color and fade characteristics. You want making it possible for the Sully E4 C to emulate other Luminaires. You already own and achieving that exact look, you need why settle for just one or two fixture types. When you can have them all in one with the Robert Juliet, for see Zoom available. Now, from act entertainment at www.oxnardhyundai.com. And also, please, visit coffee cult.com coffee with a K cult, with a K.com and search for geezers grind, the reviews are coming in.

1:01 In people seem to love this coffee, almost as much as I do and remember proceeds go to Robi backstage and support folks in our industry with medical or other challenges.

1:41 Well, hey and hello. And thanks for joining me again. Today, I will warn you today, might get a little bit noisy. I do have painters in the building today, so I apologize if you do hear background noise today. But I always try to keep it to a minimum. So, here we go. Anyways, the Parnelli Awards just happened, any surprises. I mean, not for me. I pretty much knew who The winners were going to be, I think, but just to go through a few of these, the Visionary award, my friend old friend, Kenny wit, right, who I haven't seen in years, who's enjoying, I think his retirement Lighting Company, the are Bandit lights, the new Nook, schoenfeld lighting designer of the Year award.

2:29 Alec Takahashi production designer of the Year. Travis surely sound company of the Year sound image. I'm not All of these. By the way, I'm just grabbing some of the highlights front-of-house mixer of the Year. John Lemon video production company of the year so low Tech stage lighting or sorry staging company of the Year. All access of course rigging company of the Year. ARS Atlanta rigging systems set constructions, who else? I'll give you a couple guesses. Come on I'll wait. Of course, we know what state the Patrick Stansfield production manager?

3:11 The Year Nicole Massey? Patrick Stansfield tour manager, the year, mark Oglesby Trucking Company upstaging, yes, indispensable technology, lighting rob4, the be MFL follow spot which of course is an amazing piece of equipment. We sell tons of them on gear source and expensive. Technology audio Allen & Heath for the advantageous console version. 1.2 indispensable, technology video row, of course, Vang. Banish v8t LED panels and staging and effects. Tyler trust for the GT truss. Awesome. And congratulations to everyone.

3:54 Speaking of the personalities, I've been speaking with a couple friends about this. Mostly people who had to go out there either to accept or to present or to be a part of the Parnell. He's but have absolutely nothing to do with Nan and I was in disagreement with this from the beginning. I know there was probably politics or something that led to the Parnell. He's moving from ldi to nam. I wish they'd move back to ldi. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. So, you know, I know there's competing entities behind all of this and there's, again some politics in it. But, you know, now I'm never became the Sound and Lighting Mecca, that it was meant to become or that they thought it would become from what I understand, hardly any lighting.

4:44 Companies, were there this year, hardly any of the large large sound? Companies were there this year and so, I don't know. Like, for me, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Move it back to ldi. And speaking of audio, audio gear seems to be really ramping up right now and I don't know if it's cause of Summer touring season or what it is. But we've seen some large liner a deals on gear Source in the past couple of weeks. And so I'm not going to advertise but If you happen to be looking for a liner a package, we've got them. And we've got some really cool deals right now and some gear available that I wouldn't have expected to be available at this time of year. So today's episode is one of those ones I like to dive into because it's a person.

5:30 I did not know at all previously. So today's guest is Jim Marlo, who is a technical director, production designer operations manager and was a very early mover in digital HD. Ejection as well and has some really great stories in history and experience with regard to HD projection from you know, back in the 80s and 90s and so please welcome Jim Marlowe. Hey Jim. Welcome, how are you? I'm good. How are you? It's, I'm doing great, thanks. It's a beautiful day. It's been raining for a week, solid in South Florida. So it's nice that it's sunny and fairly perfect temperature today, I'm happy guy.

6:15 And yes, a little Misty up here and Shrub Oak. New York Shrub, Oak. I've never heard of it. Where's that? It's a near Peekskill. Okay, Yorktown Heights? Yeah, Westchester, yeah, nice, nice. you know, it's funny, I mentioned this on our little preach at thing, but it's not often where I get to bring people on geezers of gear, who, I don't know, who I have, no relationship, no past, no history with, and in sort of learning about you leading up to this, this podcast, you know, you've had quite an incredible career and, and you continue to and so I'm really looking forward to, you know, getting to know you on this on this podcast and, and And I think our audience will enjoy it as well. So, yeah.

7:04 Well as I said, the name Jesus a gear caught me right away. I was like I gotta talk to this. Yeah. Well we're all geezers we're all getting there at this point, right? Absolutely. Yes. But I mean you know again it's just weird for me to meet people in our industry. I've been in the industry in this country because I come from Canada originally, but I've been in the industry in this country for 32 years now And and yeah, so it's always fun to meet new people. So, you know, your early story, I always love how people got into the business like quite often. They started as a DJ, they started as a musician and realized they couldn't make any money as a musician and so they either went the way of lighting or sound or staging or video or whatever yours is a little bit different though, right? Yeah.

7:59 Yeah, I knew pretty early on that. I wanted to work in the business and I have been a musician and actor and all that stuff as well. But I wanted to work in the business pretty early on. I knew that and was looking for an Avenue to find a way to do it. Yeah. And as I mentioned in little thing the blurb I sent you, I was in college studying theater and music and play writing and all that and started hanging out in the scene shop. So they would ask me to hold the other end of the piece of wood or hold the ladder while they climb the paying a light or something like that and eventually Of the off on me. Hmm. Yeah, nice. Yeah. So you didn't actually go to school. Like, you didn't take technical theater like no, no, I learned from the other students.

8:41 There. That's how I learned and then they are some of the people who actually connected me to the business after I got out of college to. Yeah, very cool. So, getting out of college, this is, you know I'm not going to try and age you or anything but I'm guessing late 80s. Oh no, no no. No. We're talking mid 70s. Oh geez. You're glad I got out of college in late, mid-70s and my first job was working in a college theater. I would 1979 at Fairleigh Dickinson University in Madison, huh? And what was that, what were you doing there? I was assistant, technical director.

9:22 So building scenery hanging lights, you know, assisting teaching and and you got You develop those skills just from people throwing Jabs at you while you were in college and saying, hey, look over here. You know, come move these lights or whatever. Yeah, I ended up starting to do shows. I did Off-Broadway show and I was still in college. We did a show with Pinky Lee called Las Vegas, laughs, Ins at the playhouse, on the ball, in Bergen County. Yeah. So it just started doing shows and working on stuff and picked it up. Yeah. So your first Gag was technical director at a theater and this detective assistant technical director and so how'd that go?

10:10 That was it was rough at first my friends used to make jokes that I've got like the book the scenic book open to the next page that the system page after what the students are working on it. That's funny but you know I obviously pick it up pretty quickly. You know, learn how to build flats and obviously Unite On how to do painting scenery. And I know most like how to use power tools and all that but I'm not a carpenter. I don't I don't really like carpentry right right. So it was a big miss the way to get into the business. Yeah yeah. Well that's good. So what did that lead to what was next? I read that you you found your way into rock and roll. Somehow straight out of was that straight out of that theater.

10:51 I wish I literally had just parted ways with them and I was at it. Jerry Garcia show at the Capital Theater in Passaic New Jersey. And a friend of mine that had worked within the college student comes walking across the aisle in front of me. So I say hello to him. So I'm working here at the Capital Theater. The next thing I know I got home from the concert and somebody said oh this guy's on the phone for you. So I had to vote on. What are you doing, Saturday? I have a showdown in Ashbury Park. I'm so I'll do it interesting and that led to almost all of my career opportunities for most of the rest of my life basically. Yeah, that's another story in itself. Yeah, but you mentioned somewhere in one of the papers that I read that you got on the House crew with, with John Share. Yeah, that was that was the day.

11:42 Oh that's the one. Yeah, the guy asked me to come work for them on that Saturday. Huh. Like what? You know this was like a concert was on a Wednesday and I get the call when I got one cool Correctional my name down. Yeah and that like I said from the people I met and the things I did in those two years Years of working in rock and roll led to almost all of my career opportunities for the next 20 years. Amazing. And then those like, you know, those connections from twenty years left for the rest, you know? Yeah. So when you were working with John or for John or on that house Crew, That's I think when you got introduced a video, right? Yeah, that that was, I was starting to do The Rock videos because Literally when MTV took off, okay? And I had when I was still working at the college, I had done a rock video with the guys that were down the hall. There is funny because that's where my office was, was also the underground theater and a classroom and the right down the hall in the same building with the television Department, okay? And the guys cheer mangino said, hey, you know, you should learn video and I would like that.

12:58 Be cool. So we end up making a Iraq video of my band for this thing called MADtv, which was Jersey City, State College now, Jersey City University and it was on local cable access, you know, and it made me want to do more with rock video. And then, when the opportunity came up to work with the John chair group, I was already interested in that with the chemical bond Arc entertainment at the time. And I was already interested in doing the rock and roll video stuff. So literally started doing Be video as it was just beginning. And when you say doing video, what were you doing? Well, these days, we do major shoots for things.

13:38 We did the Billy Idol Rebel. Yo, MTV video is Right shot as your role me. I was gonna help her and I do anything able. I said, well, the first thing you do is you bring in all the band gear and you set it all up, you know, that you're bringing all all the video gear and they set it up. You don't set up video game for thing, you know, you're, you're putting doing the lighting focus in. You're covering up things with black cloth so that you can be seen on camera and they're just working basically, but it gave me the bug and that was one and I decided intense education as well. You know, when you're when you're on site, when those videos are happening and stuff, you're learning the terminology, you're learning the people, you're learning the equipment, you know? It's that's high-value stuff obviously and then you see it, you see it on TV and you realize that you were part of something that's like now.

14:29 High-end are top-notch you were there when on the Rebel Yell video. Yeah, I work in Rebel. Yeah. Yeah. They shine that video a thousand times probably was in. It was in the movie Bay. They actually the kids are in their little flop house and he's staying at when he becomes an adult and they're watching it on TV. Yeah. So I would laughing. So yeah. It's very common. Very well-known video. Yeah. No, I mean, I remember when it came out, I've seen it a thousand times since then, it's, yeah, it's obviously. We part of my you cooked as you say part of my you yeah, I heard that song about 400 times in two days and they played it over and over and over again. Well, imagine being him, he's like, in his, whatever, 70s now or something and he's still gotta sing it every night, so God bless them, you know?

15:21 Yeah. I've seen recent video of him and he still sounds and looks like a like a rock star, you know, good for him. It's still a badass. Yeah, so I mean that that gave you like you said that probably gave you the bug to access more video, get into more videos. So where'd that go like Well, I was still working doing Scenic when when opportunities presented itself and I was working as a freelancer for a company called the theater machine, okay? Woman named Pat Moser and we were on a job in the city, it was called The Care Bears and strawberry shortcakes and it was an industrial.

16:05 But you know, it was like a Broadway play, but it was only half hour long and had all the scenery was like full-size scenery. So we Built it all and installed it there and the people who did the AV for the event was staging techniques. Okay, as I mentioned a little piece of writing that I wrote, it says we saw them there and they were wearing their there's satin jackets, who they just looked really cool here. Like, I mean, the other guy who worked with, we want to be in on that, you know, how do we get in on that? So then a friend of mine that I was working with at at the Capital Theater and for John chair called me up and he had two days of work as a freely, its Scenic car. They're at stake techniques.

16:46 Did I was I interested. I said yes. So it worked and then it became two more days, it was four days. And then the four days, the guy who was in charge, there said, you can either have your check mail, or you can come and pick it up. And I just said, well probably come and pick it up, might be a good idea. You know, it might be a good way to get in on this. No and I had made friends with Leon Chang, who's good friend and we hit it off. And so, when I got there to pick up my check, The door opens this Leon, he says fed his work, he says ask him about it, so I meet Fred, we go up in the elevator to the office, to pick up the check. And, and the way back down, I said, holy and sacred work next week. It's just yeah.

17:27 So we go back over to where the scenic shot was and he hands me. A key to the building and he says, if you're in first make coffee. Yeah. And I went and I was there for 11 years. Thanks Nicole. Yeah. And eventually took over their video department and that's how oh my goodness. That's how I finally got into the Field. They wanted to get into. Yes what I mean, you know, there's a common sort of theme or thread on a lot of the podcasts that I record especially with old school folks like me like you where You know, and it's a certain type of effort and an attitude and a say, yes attitude about everything. Like, do you know how to do this? Oh yeah. I know how to do that and then you go and read the manual to try and figure out how to do it, right? But it seems like you have that same thing. Like people you didn't bang on doors and Chase opportunities. They came to you just because you were putting in such you know, good work elsewhere and people notice that and when Hey, let's grab that guy.

18:29 You know, before somebody else does Yeah. Well as a staffer, I always tell the people that I work for the work with those, the Freelancers I've always told him, you only have one job and that's to pick up the phone and say yes. Yeah. Obviously, as you were saying, you have to learn it. You have to back it up. It's not enough to show up, although that helps you show up on time and the old days, that was everything. Now, apparently, not so much, but see you show up on time. But then, at some point you're gonna be tested. Yeah, gonna want to know if you know how to do it. You know how to do it. Everyone's gonna be like, whoa. You know what? Yeah, we want that guy, like you said, that's becomes a thing. Yeah, well, I mean, aside from all the safety, concerns and compliance and all the different things, you know, I just, I think it's too easy, you know?

19:16 And I hate to say the younger folks. Today it's not, it's not got anything to do with age, it's attitude, right? But I think it's too easy to say, no, no, that's not my like everyone wants to stay in their Lane. It seems not. Not everyone. But there's a lot of people that really want to know. No, that's not my job, that's that department. Or that's that department or, you know, different Union or whatever it is, right? Whereas yeah, that's always been my MO is just, you know, you need help. Let me figure it out, you know, I'll come and help you. So I've been, I've been very fortunate, I work with, you know, SSA management person. I work with a lot of younger people who are excellent, who were meant mentees of mine that I don't.

20:02 There's one difference. I noticed it's a lot easier to get work than it was in those days in those days you didn't really had to beat the, you know, the path to find anything. Yeah, now there's there's you know, so much work out there and if you're halfway interested in it you're going to find someone who's willing to hire you. And then of course, the other side of it is they all want a lot of money now. I don't blame them but it's like when they, when I think of what I was working for back then, you know, and it was even though obviously money was different. Then yeah. You still wasn't a lot of money back then. You know, they people acted like they were doing you a favor to let you work in the business? Yeah, yeah. Now it's that's very different like, you know, right now it's a really bizarre world on how much money people want today.

20:47 Oh yeah. And in some cases, they're worth it, you know, certainly in some cases, they're worth that money, but in other cases, those people, you know, a year from now, or I don't know what's going to happen with the economy. But at some point, those people might not Get the call because people have a long memory in this business, you know, and you know weren't you that guy who tripled your rate you know on that next show to me and yeah, yeah. Okay. Held my feet to the fire. Yeah, you screwed me on that job because you got 50 bucks a day more from the other guy or whatever. Now, I mean, I've heard so many different stories, both on this podcast and just friends of mine and stuff. And, you know, I guess if the artists Making more money and the lighting vendor and the video vendor and the sound vendor are making more money than absolutely. The people should be making more money to but my concern is always, who's paying for this and, you know, today, it's the person buying the ticket is paying for most of it, right. I don't think that's going to last forever. Like I just don't think we can fill stadiums and Arenas and buildings.

21:57 Like we are today for a, you know, in the long I just don't see it, I don't know, I could be. Well, that's the reason I that's the reason I went into corporate because of course, I know who's paying that. Yeah, I don't feel bad. You know, I had at one time I was working Staffing and so it. So, you know, ask you guys to know take a cut in pay for this job, so we can land this job and they wanted me to like, cut everyone, my five dollars an hour and it was the client was like a Max or something. Yeah, I am. I'm not going to ask my people to give up money for a Maxwell because somebody screwed up and needs to cover their ass with a budget cut somewhere else, you know? Oh, yeah.

22:42 I mean, that's, that's terrible. So in the notes that you sent me prior, you sent a really interesting comparison where you were comparing older audio technology. That, you know, and I by the way, I agree with this, you know, both lighting technology and video technology. A heck of a lot faster in most cases than audio you no audio I can think of two or three major shifts in audio you know, obviously going from stacked speaker, arrays to line arrays, from analog controls and consoles and everything else to digital. But beyond that, like a speaker is a speaker. A microphone is a microphone, they don't change that much, but you used a specific A story or, you know, just an anecdote or whatever you want to call it around a microphone, a share that with me.

23:41 Yeah, absolutely researching. I was doing a presentation at the school of audio engineering and I was trying to tell the people there, know what a Vu is all about. And so while researching that I found out that the sm57 and the sm58 greatest microphone, In the world. Yeah, initially, the fancy is not necessarily the best, but definitely the greatest thing they've done. The most shows. They work the hardest. They're practically indestructible. Yeah. That the roots of those micro loans were from like 1937 and then they were, you know, upgraded to the unit 93, which was sitting at 50s. I believe, if I remember correctly and that since then, they haven't changed at all. Yeah.

24:28 And, and the comparison was to that and video technology. Ecology, would you like me to continue that story because that is oh, no, absolutely. It's all using story. So, when I was getting involved with video, it's taking techniques, we had a job for IBM and this is 90 January 1988 and we needed to project a single image from a projector up to a screen. And you know, we think everyone thinks like, well, that's everyone. Does that, you know? Like in those things you did computer graphics. Books were just like bright colors and they were very basic. They were the same rate as straight video and one of the reasons what's up Ram.

25:11 There wasn't a lot of ram. So you couldn't really store images and stuff like that and you know, and your video RAM. They didn't even really use video RAM them. You couldn't store an image in the ram, to put it up on the screen. So right, they just develop this technology and it was the IBM. Ps/2 Model, 25, which had an internal monitor. Like the Oh Max, you know? And so in order to get the image out of, it didn't have any video display and you couldn't plug anything into it. You had to take the ribbon cable out from inside the inside the computer and put another ribbon Cable in that. Also, had a breakout cable that went to a computer interface and the computer interface was called a covid.

25:51 My goodness. Yeah, ironically, yes. And so you go to the covid and then that would output RGB and sink and then you would go to a projector. The only projector that they had available that could do. That was a 600. Lumen 3-gun CRT projector man obviously 600 lumens is very dim. Most commercial desktop you know protectors nowadays at least three or four thousand lumens right? Yeah. And they CRT projector at three different colors that had to be aligned in a grid to make the image. It took hours to just even get an image on the screen. I remember I used to have I've won under a coffee table in my house.

26:34 Like it was a coffee table with a built-in RGB projector underneath that, that aimed at a screen on the wall in the picture was crap and it wasn't very bright and I couldn't even write literally in those days. They had to turn off the lights. Yeah. Just to show any kind of image. Yeah, so we ended up projecting this at an IBM meeting and at the time a color image coming out. Computer was unheard of so even the executives and IBM had never seen it. This was all, you know, laboratory stuff, they were just developing. So the guy who's the presenter is at this meeting of IBM, Executives, in Atlanta, January 1988, and he points to the little monitor on the actual computer and he says and color image of a photo can appear on this screen and he points to the little screen. And the image pops up of a woman wearing a hat. Yeah, you may have even seen this picture, it's a famous still image.

27:37 Did you'll still image and the entire audience goes like like that. And it goes and that image there can appear on this screen here and he points to the projection screen and the image pops up on the screen and buddy. It's stands up instantaneously and start to standing ovation. Oh my goodness. Oh my God, never seen anything like that before. So fast forward 15 years. So now we're talking, this is 2002 to December, so almost exactly 15 years and James Cameron's Expedition. Bismarck was being shown at the national museum of natural history for the Discovery Channel.

28:20 Okay. And we showed a segment of it in 3D HD, which means full moving images, you know, not only that, but three days, so they Studio projectors one. Just doing the horizontal and the other ones doing the vertical and you are polarized glasses. So you can see it and those projectors were twelve thousand, lumens each? Yeah. Wow. Nowadays all talk about but you don't know. They said was incredible. Yeah, and so we showed that the 3D clip of the James Cameron's movie up on the screen again, Standing Ovation. Brown son, goes to the feet cheering and Applauding ends up because they'd never seen anything like that.

29:04 So as as the show ends, I'm wrapping up cables over by my station, breaking down everything and some standard wants to talk to me. So I just give him like one of the easier to hold on for a minute. And then I finish rolling. Kate the cable up and I looked up and it's James Cameron. Whoa. And he says, to me goes, it looked good. And I said, Thank you. And that was the extent of our conversation, but the point I needed, I know the point being between showing that single image in 88 and doing 3D HD in 2002 was 15 years to poo. And the to the industry had not only taken off, but it had exploded, you know?

29:49 And now, the incremental increases in resolution, you know, another Timmy actually do 8K fast forward to today. And I mean, it's unbelievable like between the media Over the power of these media servers that people are using the projection all being, you know, laser projection. And I mean if image mapping in a woman's mapping, yeah, they some of that mapping stuff just blows me away like some of the outdoor mapping jobs that are you just blow me away. You know, like I watch videos I go down these rabbit holes of videos of mapping projects outside.

30:31 Side especially in Europe. They get really big into that stuff like a castle or something like that. Yeah solar and exacting in Paris or something. They love that stuff and it just looks so cool but yeah I mean the video technology continues to just move at a crazy clip so yeah I went oh it's out at infocomm and I think it was 2019 and I went and saw 8K projection, an AK LED monitor Yeah, and he Ka LED wall, you know, of LED panels. Yeah. And and I came back to corporate AV where I was working and I had a training session and I was doing nothing with 4K video and I said, well, I'll explain them myself with so they take a projection.

31:20 I saw this AK monitor, I say k LED. Well, I said, now, you don't have to worry about 8K, right? At this moment that something in the future. But what it does tell you is you Have to worry about 4K. And that's what that's what we're seeing now. You know, I have people sometimes a me feed from a camera. Oh can you put this up on the screen? And I can't because the projectors HD only and they're giving me a camera that's outputting 84k or UHD you know, 3840 by 2160 I can't put up on the screen. I'm sorry. But I can't, you know, and it's something that you have to be aware of and it's important. And yeah, yeah.

32:01 I'll tell you as a user, you know, just like a consumer individual video has been one of the most frustrating things that I've ever had to deal with in that, you know, between, you know, the different formats and everything else. But like, in my last house that I had, I put a Crestron system in. This was in 2005, in 2005. Crestron was still state-of-the-art. Right? And I don't know maybe it is again today, but it certainly wasn't in between time but You know, I put a Crestron system and cost me a fortune, by the time. They finally finished the job, like, eight months later, or whatever. Because it was a new home, it was new construction.

32:43 It was already basically obsolete, like, half the stuff I had. There was a model to x dot for. And I had the 2 x dot to, you know, or whatever, right? And and plus like there was new technology coming online as far as sources and those sources were all He not compatible with my Crestron system and I was like, what the heck and then, you know, just that you had to call people every time something, you know, you wanted to add a component to it, you had to call a programmer and get them out to it, drove me nuts. And, you know, now I have Sonos and, you know, like cable companies and stuff have figured out how to stream things on multiple TVs, and positraction, travels across your house.

33:26 Wirelessly, you don't need any of that stuff anymore. Forget Crestron. And I'm I'm sorry if they're, you know, friends of yours in there. Listening. Who cares? They piss me off. I'll tell you I'll tell you what I found out with like installs. This is something that's really come important to me recently. And in all these locations, I go to wear either. You're going to try to upgrade their facilities or there. They want you to use their existing facility. Yeah, you know, is that there's what I call institutional Amnesia, and the people who were there, When the is the equipment was installed are no longer there and and the people who maintain this facility or wherever you are have not done due diligence to get the information to keep the information, so that they know how all this gear works for them.

34:17 New person is trained on this gear, so that when you come in, they know what they're doing. So a lot of times, a lot of this year's not useful anymore. Yeah. Because nobody knows how to use, you know, and they're asking you to like, you know, even like oh can you just, you know? Checked, you know, on the screen and bringing your own projector and stuff because they can't figure out how to turn on their own projectors that are in their building. Yeah, a lot of times they are obsolete to, but you know, that nobody knows anymore how to do it and that's really a shame. And it does go back to the holding about, you know, valuing people too because, you know, saw that. No one is indispensable. Well, apparently you might be wrong because you just cost your company a million dollars, you know, by getting rid of this. Yeah, no I think it's also the pace. At which things continue to move, you know, it's like manufacturers keep growing every year over year over year over year you know they don't want to talk about an installation that happened seven years ago.

35:11 They want to sell you a new projector. Absolutely. And so I'm not blaming them. I mean, that's just that's how the world works. That's Commerce, right? But yeah, I mean, it is challenging, and it's funny because that exact story you just said happened with me with that house. So after I sold the House. They had already closed on the house, the buyer of the house calls me and says, hey this Crestron stuff that's in the house, and I'm like, nope. And he goes, excuse me. And I said, I have no interest in trying to figure it out trying to talk you through it. You know. I'm not gonna be able to help you with now, I'm sorry. You're just going to have to find a contractor. You know, if it were me I'd replace it all. I didn't charge you for it when you bought the house so it was a Dawson, get rid of it all you know and and just go to Something much simpler.

36:02 So, here we are. That recently with the install that little sound controller, that ran the different rooms, you have the wall controls and like that, it shorted out, and we're trying to find a report first. We send it out someplace that they could repair it, you know, you know, and they said they looked at him, the manufacturing got out of business. They sold their part of the business to somebody else. No. Miss looking to support this product, you know. So we've answered and said, they could Pare teather like months. They said, oh yeah, we're not gonna be able to repair that. Yeah, we finally found a used one and installed it and it worked, you know, and everyone was happy, but I can't say how long that's gonna last. Yeah, yeah.

36:44 Now it's true. It's true. And it's, you know, again I was, I was part of the lighting business on the manufacturer side from 1991 until about 2002, I guess, and that during that time, That was sort of the Heyday of automated lighting going from just very light to being, you know, Vera light plus Martin and high-end and all of these other companies and stuff moved very very quickly, you know, and it was like, you know, you'd sell somebody a light and actually the technology didn't move as fast as it is today in some cases because with LEDs. Now, you know, they're constantly finding ways to make brighter chips or better this or better color rendering Enduring, or whatever it is, or they add a lime chip, in to make, you know, new colors or whatever.

37:36 I'll try pilot. It's a big one. The ultraviolet is another one. And so, it just seems like, what used to be like a lifespan or a good rental. Span on a fixture of like, 7 8, 9 years now has become like five years, you know, and it's only hot for two years where it used to be hot for four or five years, you know. So like you know, companies up by you, I remember Bash. Bought like intelli beings really really early. They bought like hundreds of intelli beams and they rented them for probably 10 12 years. I'm sure prg bought them when they bought bash, you know? So I was working it.

38:16 I was working at a corporate AV and we were sending out going sending a driver out to pick up some rentals at Altman and absent-mindedly. I told you I oh yeah I just have to go to the bash. He's like what's best? No, no, and apparently Altman's. No longer renting here in the New York area. Either say well, they moved to like Denver or something. Yeah, everybody that's the sales, I believe, but yeah, everything changes. Yeah, no dings people continue, you know, I was talking about saving techniques now, Randy will passed away speaking. Want to mention somebody's name and he had been one of the guy likes of stating for many years, right?

38:56 And the end up closing the New York office. Now, you know, Seattle still. Out there and they're still doing jobs for Microsoft and such like that and Seattle. And I'm sure they probably doing very well, you know, but that was a major transition to, you know, like a lot of these companies that I grew up working for, don't exist anymore. Yeah, you never worked at World stage at all to do. Speaking of we did. I worked there for eight. Well, it was sharp at the time, but I worked there for eight days. Wow. And they said it wouldn't last. Exactly. There's a guy that worked at a corporate EV that only lasted a week and some debts. He's the gold standard there, very funny. No like oh wow, hopefully you'll make it longer than Rudy you know.

39:44 But yeah I wish I was there working part-time, you know, freelance and they told me well if you get it, you know, a full-time offer, let us know, you know. All right you know I want to make days later it's like I got a full-time offer. Like all right. See you know it's like Fine, bye-bye. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. That's I was talking to somebody about world stage yesterday and You know, it's a terrible story. I mean, so many of those stories are terrible. It's, you know, it's one of my pet peeves about our industry being so propped up by private Equity right now and, and debt, you know, debt being a big one. Yeah, but you know, like you were just talking about video like video is a tough one because you buy it a video projector, you know, five years later, you sell it for call it twenty thousand dollars, but the new one to replace it is 120,000.

40:39 And then you repeat that same process over and over again and you hope you're making enough money on the rentals to make that worthwhile. But you know, as far as an asset, just a buy and sell asset. It doesn't look real good on the books because the value has dropped. So heavily by the time you sell it. Well, that's why a lot of the people I know work rely on companies, like rent X and Nationwide for Led walls or video projectors. Because, you know, they're always going to have the top notch latest. Greatest. And if you try to pursue that and you try to, you know, keep keep up with that. You're gonna, you're gonna go into data, set is painful process and as we learn from, you know, the pandemic. Yeah.

41:21 Anybody who was left hanging out with debt and in 2020. Yeah, well, they got screwed. I got screwed. Of course because they weren't, there was no money coming in for at least a year, you know, and and you're hoping all, I have this new great LED wall. That's gonna make me a fortune, you know, and everybody's going to A new ship, you know, and it's .7 bitch. You know dot b dot pitch and everything is like no. You just bought the most expensive boat anchor in the world because by the time it came back out from the other end there was something new out. Yeah. Why I won't mention any names, but I spoke with one company. In particular that took delivery on a huge amount of stuff. It was, you know, five six million dollars. For a small privately funded company to take dead on 2 by 6 million dollars.

42:15 Worth of gear was really difficult. But, you know, he did it because it made sense for their future and 2020 was projected to be a record year for them. And so he took on this, this really difficult debt. Got the product so by the beginning or middle of 21, a new model came out of that product. And so now not only His road cases never opened or used, you know, because the product was still brand new, but now there was a newer version. So what he bought call it ten thousand dollars was now worth $5000. He hadn't even started paying for it yet, you know? I mean it was just like such a terrible story, you know, just as sad sad story.

43:00 So yeah. I mean that's why there's so much private equity in our industry. Now is because if you want to compete with companies like Ian wide or like for wall or like you know, the the Behemoth companies. So, low-tech prg, if you want to compete with those companies, you know, the biggest difference between you and them isn't necessarily the quality of your people, or your ability to do the job, it's the gear, you know? And and they have in some cases, they have access to endless supplies of capital to buy gear and you don't. And so, you either have to go out and cross ran it, which makes it more difficult for you to be competitive, or, you know, or you gotta, you know, put your house in hock, you know, and go buy the gear on some kind of credit or whatever. But it's a challenging challenging business when you're competing against heavily, funded private Equity backed companies, But to get back to the sm57 in the sm58, that is the key by the stuff that will stay the same by drape. Yeah, drape is going to stay the same, you know, by screams now, yes, they went from 4:3 to 16:9, but other than that, they haven't really changed that much. So that was a big change.

44:21 Yeah. But by things that won't change and rent the rest because otherwise you're going to have last year's model. Anyhow, I had that as a snack, same conversation also Yesterday. So somebody setting up a company and they're setting it up, not based on buying, a whole bunch of hardware. On the expensive side, they're buying the infrastructure, they're buying cabling, they're buying, you know, all of the infrastructure stuff like you said screen guessing get trucks, you know, yeah, truck. Yeah, I heard drivers. You know? Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, and then text about it, everyone's using Freelancers for the most part. Nowadays, you know. But that has been Yeah, it's back and forth and everyone says, oh well you know I can pay this guy this much and I can charge this much today for him.

45:09 It's worth having him on Snap. Yeah. Until until the pandemic hits, you know and then the other one is like well I only hire people when I need them. So you know, I can pay them whatever they want as long as I can build more to the client than what I'm paying them. Yeah, but it's very alluring though. When when you're looking at one job, like, let's say you own a small video shop and somebody wants Us to rent an LED screen and, you know, you're looking at the numbers and you're going. Okay, wait. This job is an eight-week rental that's going to pay for 50% or 40% of the cost of the screen. So yes, I have to come up with a million dollars to buy this screen, but it's going to be 40 percent paid for, you know, I need to do this instead of just taking your profit and running on one where your cross renting it and you're going to make 20 30. On top of the Cross rental or whatever. And so what happens is, then that job cancels in two weeks or something, you know?

46:09 And now, the math doesn't work quite the same as it did or, you know, something else happens, inevitably things happen, right? So, yeah, it's a difficult Choice. Well, that used to be even more prevalent, because you knew that, you know, 5 or 10 days in this thing is going to be paid for it. You can't charge that kind of money anymore. Tend to get this, you know, like attend a rental on this is paid for it and now they say that's not the story. Yeah, yeah. No. It's very, very true. It's used to be a big guy used to be big motivator. The people would like, okay, I can make most of my money back on this purse, right? Oh, you know. Yeah, it's kind of like, if you people said you have this stuff, you say, yes and you don't really have it, but you're already getting quote for it, you're ready to, you know, buy it if they confirm. Yeah.

46:58 So there they want you to tell it. Tell them that you Me and you tell them to have it and you want to buy it, but you can't buy it till they could firm. And it's me like a catch-22. It's or they show up in your shop like two hours later and go. Okay, show it to me. Oh no, it's out on a job. I don't have to tell course, which show, I'll go over and see it. Oh no, no, it's out of state. And now your life just keeps getting worse. Well that it never helps to lie unless you have to in which case just don't blink you know that yeah sort of like poker right? the one I am one with said something similar is like a lens or something, cause we're going to be a rental company and the somebody needs their two of the same lenses for like a month.

47:45 These people have one for one day. Yeah. Let it go. And say hey it never came back you know like we're still waiting for them to return it. Yeah, I was lying but tell him you know that. Yeah, we really value this other random more than your rental is this worse. Like yeah. You know that then you're like kind of insulting them in. Yeah, kind of yeah. So over the years you moved from literally the stage where you were a performer To sort of the show production side of things to the shop where I think you still are today like along the way, do you miss the past? Like when you when you go from the stage to the production side of it you know go from the front of the stage to behind the stage.

48:29 You know do you miss being on the stage when you go from the production side to going into the shop? Do you miss going out on Productions? You know what I mean? Yeah, well I think I I've done almost every position in the industry. I've been to salesperson? Yeah, I've been a on-site technician. Yeah, I've been in the warehouse. I've been, you know, operations, I've run organizations like that. I've never really been a driver. I had my own HD company for a while, but it wasn't highly successful. So, I don't know how, you know, I guess I was an owner so they count sort of. Yeah. But I find that what? It really makes me.

49:11 Feel best is if I can work a balance between working in the office and going out on shows once in a while. Yeah, going on show all the time you would get beat up you know it's a rough life. It is it's not a life or a geezer like us. A person's life is you're doing all kinds of weird hours, you know, and this one's a Morning Show so you get a 6 a.m. and it doesn't lunch and you're already breaking down by two in the afternoon. But this one goes in at 190, we Art 27. It's not over till 11:00 and you're probably not going to get home till like 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, you know. So that becomes rough. Now you're doing it once in a while, it's great. Yeah, and if you work in the office all the time, same thing it's mundane and it's, you know, drudgery and it starts to wear down on you everyday, go ahead and out and how, you know. And so either one is too much at some points of doing, both of them is really the best of both, right? Yeah.

50:11 I still we have other guys that corporate TV. We have a band. We actually go out and play music in public sometimes it's cool. What kind of music is Americana? You know, rock the younger guys. It's cool because it's a multi-generational young guys. Do a lot of 90s and 2000 type music. You know, what do you mean? Indie pop. I grew up listening to the Grateful Dead. No, but what do you play with instrument? I play Blues Harmonica. Okay. Some vocals. Yeah, I've done that since I was teenager. So huh, I'm actually pretty good at it yet. Cool. That's fine. Interesting.

50:52 So I mean, this has been a lot of fun. I have enjoyed it. I've enjoyed getting to know you and hear about your past and stuff. So I got this thing that I like to do at the end of every, every one of my podcast sort of on a, you know, I'm from the gear space so kind of what's your go-to gear and so three pieces, Of gear that you've got to take. Or you've got to put on every show that goes out the door. That's right. Interesting. All right. Well I'm gonna deviate a little bit but I'm a projection guy. Do you know? I'm okay with flat screens. And I'm okay with LED walls. I love to work with the projector. I do that, I do some theater stuff for four, shows in the city and I love to do anything with the projector on it. Yeah.

51:38 If I could, I would take a pair of pants, you know. Obviously if you're doing a big show you want the biggest and brightest you know that you can possibly get in the warehouse or bread. Into whatever. Yeah, and you want to blow blow a hole through the screen but these, the little projectors are fun for like the theater stuff. And somebody says though, because she could carry them in your hand, you can slap him down anywhere, you can throw them up on the screen. So we're on a wall. Yeah, you know, and so I do like that as well. I like that little toy protector. So yeah, they have, I wanted a corporate equal, the IP 4700, which is forty seven, hundred Lumen, which almost 5,000. So, it's pretty bright. Yeah. Lot brighter than the 600. Yeah.

52:19 Lumens that really is back when incredible. Yeah. Why you hate us? Look, it's good. Look at flat screens. You just mentioned flat screens but it blows my mind every time I go to Costco, you know, because again I'm an old guy. I remember the first plasma I bought. It was a 42-inch Panasonic and I think it really depends. Well, it was for my house, right? And I think I paid about 7,500 bucks for it. Oh yeah. And I know they were more than that at one point but But 7,500 bucks for a freakin like 70 pound Panasonic that wasn't that great looking to begin with. And and now you're going to Costco and you can get like a freaking 85-inch. You know, LED that looks kick ass and it's HD 4K. And it's like less than a thousand bucks or whatever, you know.

53:09 Yeah, I bought. I bought a 42 recently for my living room and I paid 181 died. Oh, it's incredible, isn't it? And Looks way better than the one that I had. I'm sure of it, you know, and it's probably got built-in Netflix or something, you know, I had nothing built in. So all right, so getting back to what I would bring on a show nowadays. One of the keys I'm if it's at all possible, I'd like to be a projector show ya. Then one of the other things nowadays, you have to have converters, you have to be able to convert from hd-sdi to HDMI and you have to be able to convert maybe Brands and models. Eels and stuff. If you can well the decimator is very popular unit. The Asha makes a high five and a half five and those are also available in 4k and 3G and everything but you gotta have those.

54:02 Yeah. Go anywhere without some night theatrics makes a nice one and there's a one-way only, the and so is the eyes of with the decimator good, because you're too way, okay? You can go from HDMI to 80s. The I go from HDS. STI to HDMI and even make one that has a built-in scalars. Nice. No just your levels and framerates stuff like that. So that is critical nowadays you know and also DA's of course you know the extra on 3G da is very nice. Distribution. Amplifier is you're going to go to multiple screens nowadays. Everybody's got to have here and there over there and over here. Yeah, so flow signal flow becomes really, the key, you know, it's getting out of whatever unit you have a switcher.

54:47 Or a laptop and then getting into the distribution of a fire and then getting into all the different screens whether they're HD SDI inputs or HDMI inputs, most of the flat screens or HDMI and, yeah, the projectors are hd-sdi and it's matter of mastering that signal flow. And so you have to have lots of toys. Yeah. And you will be use any media servers or is that more for rock and roll shows. It's funny you should mention it. I am actually a media server guy. From way back when I was talking about the doing the 3D HD for James Cameron and 2002. Those were qubit servers. They literally had to sink together to play because you could play Both Sides. You know, that have to match up frame for frame. And so that was human, was one that they were using for digital cinema at the time.

55:39 So I learned how to do that. I actually did a version of back then of Quadrophenia with a Vela server. The quad decoder, which output at the four screens at the time. So and then nowadays, everything is done on playback Pro for video playback, which is sort of like server. It's, you know, Mac and it has a software named. You load all the clips, everything's done with clams. I mean, you know, obviously I'm not using video decks, you know? And so everything's a clip it at one point or not a nowadays. But that's something like I said, I've been doing for over 20 years, I wrote articles for TV, technology magazine, about servers and stuff like that. So, Wow. Yeah, I don't even think about it anymore. I did the Grass Valley. Turbo I was using that like 10 15 years ago, huh? Is that in Serbian service for over 20 years? You can do a nice a while.

56:28 Yeah, yeah, he's that's why maquis. And we have now verified verified Geezer. Well, I'd be on your show. Yeah. Well, I very much appreciate you coming on and taking the time to do this and I've enjoyed getting to know you and I had a great time. Yeah. Yeah. And you know cool I mean reach out if I can ever help you with anything obviously and appreciate and yeah it's been fun. I'll point the point people you're way too. If some comes I appreciate it and I will I'll send you a link to the finished product to the podcast.

57:09 It'll go up later today and then also will tag you on socials and stuff. So, of course, and I will share with you. Perfect. It's wonderful. Well thank you Jim. You have an amazing rest of your week and I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much.