#194 - Roland Greil on designing for Rammstein, The Stones, Adelle, Genesis and more

0:00 Thank you for joining us today on geezers of Gear. Episode. Number 194 today's podcast is brought to you by stratum Productions bringing Clarity and order to the chaotic event industry. Stratum is your single Source Pro AV El rental and design resource proudly servicing shows and special events throughout North America. Founded in the Heartland, the company's Midwestern values, Relentless pursuit of perfection and And ship driven customer focus helps separate them from the rest from the first downbeat to the final curtain call. The stratum pro team of Industry Titans are committed to providing the best gear and Technical Support available to help you. Create immersive events that will leave Crews thankful and crowds speechless to learn more about this great company. Please visit stratum Pro.com also please visit Coffee cult.com, that is coffee with K and cult with K coffee, cult.com and search for geezers grind, it's a killer blend. That's not too strong, but we'll definitely get you going every morning and proceeds from the sales of this coffee, go to row be backstage to support people in this industry with medical or other life challenges.

1:22 So please visit coffee cult.com and by geezers grind today. Well, hello there. And again, thank you for joining me today on Jesus Gear episode number 194.

2:04 And so this week I believe Nam opens. Today, I'm recording this on April 13th, 2023. And now I'm starts today, National Association of Music merchants. And as a side story, I actually grew up going to that show. I know people who know, me know that I grew up in the The music retail business selling guitars and amplifiers, and that kind of stuff. And prior to that, of course, I was a professional musician, but I think I went to my first NAMM Show around, maybe 1986 CAT5. Probably 84, even a long, long time ago, and it was a different show back then. I mean, it was cool.

2:51 You'd be walking down the aisles and bump. To Eddie Van Halen or all kinds of, just crazy talented, amazing people. And at the time, it was very hard for end-users to get into the show. It was very sort of exclusive to music retailers, and manufacturers. And then, you know, invited rock stars and stuff. So it was always a really, really cool show where you saw lots and lots of famous guitar Heroes and stuff and the parties were legendary. I mean, You know, Kramer guitars used to have an unbelievable party where, again, Eddie Van Halen, and all the, all the sort of Big Cheese guitar Slingers from back then would play at these parties. And very, very cool events to go to the show was amazing. And I actually believe that I went to one of the very first NAMM shows as well, where they started to have a lighting section.

3:49 And if I remember correctly, Early. It was just kind of they were scattered about and then what they did is now I'm decided hey we're going to organize this and go after more lighting manufacturers and stuff. So they created a lighting section and the first year as I recall, they had it downstairs. So you had to go to the basement of NAMM to try and find lighting companies, and it was pretty, pretty empty down there for the most part and pretty lonely. And so that was in, I'm guessing maybe 93. For it was early to mid 90s and since that time name has really grown to become a pretty important show and now the personality Parnelli awards are during The NAMM Show.

4:35 And, you know, they're really converging the musical instrument world with the progear world and it's pretty easy for lighting to get lost in that, you know, especially pro lighting because, you know, the Big Ten. Twelve thousand dollar light fixtures, don't sell in music stores and So I don't know that name is the greatest show for that kind of stuff. Name is a big organization and lots, and lots of people, but, you know, if one out of every five thousand people is actually interested in lighting, you know, it's a lot of expense because you're paying the same amount of money that Roland and and Fender guitars and Gibson guitars are paying per square foot basically, but they obviously are getting 4999 out of those five thousand people and you're getting one. And so, I don't know that the value is great for manufacturers, I guess we'll wait and see. I know probably companies like a DJ, maybe even shove a mega light, those types of companies that have sort of the lower end music store types of products, they would do really well at this show, as far as the top Pro Brands, I don't know, I'd have to talk to them and see what they think, but if you're going have fun.

5:46 I wish I was going but I just have to be in the office this week. I was gone last week to England and so yeah. I'm stuck here. Speaking of shows, Pro-Lite is this month? April 25th to 28th in Frankfort who's going so gear Source, I believe will have a presence there. Sarah, who is our Biz Dev rep in Europe, I believe Sarah will be going to the show so you can connect with Sarah through Sarah gear. Source.com I would expect and set up an appointment or whatever sit and talk with her have a beer, whatever it is. There's a great lady, she's very big part of our team and and she's very thorough, so I'm sure she'd be happy to sit with you. It's a great show.

6:33 I mean, if you've been to Pro-Lite, it's sort of like NAMM times five or six, you know, they've got all of these massive halls and you got to take buses between the halls and it's just, it's an easy show to get lost in. It's a massive, massive showing you spent half your day on buses or walking between these halls and stuff, but it's a cool I'll show, it's a very exciting show, a lot of fun, a lot of fun. After hours to, and I've been several times, I just haven't managed to find a really good reason to go back to Europe here in a couple of weeks so I likely will not be going this year. Maybe go back next year gear. One of our favorite topics is finding its way back to some weird version of normal and so on gear Source. My company we are seeing normal listings again. Lots and lots more listings.

7:25 Lots of the good stuff that for the last two years was non-existent. We're starting to see more of it, big sound systems, big line array systems that you know like K2 systems and stuff that people are really looking for lots more of the LA, a acts and stuff coming about, which is good because those things just were gold over the last 18 months, you couldn't get them either from the manufacturer or from us and now we're starting to see them available so that's good, you know I think on something Things the prices are still up pretty high, but sort of stable at this point, you know, it's not like prices are still climbing and gears wildly unavailable and stuff like that. It's gotten back to a point where if you want something you can pretty much get it fairly quickly. And yeah.

8:11 So, I mean, we're seeing sort of a robust uptick in business things are going well and it's an exciting time. So, and what else did I want to talk to you? Speaking of sound. So my last podcast I believe it was probably 193 was with a company out of Calgary Canada. My home town called PK sound, really cool company. If you haven't heard of these guys or you didn't hear the podcast, maybe go back and listen to episode 193 with Jeremy. Who's the founder of PK sound. And so, the really cool thing that PK sound has, is it's a line array and you hang it straight.

8:52 And then You basically analyze the room and then the system moves itself into a curved array and angles itself based on what the settings need to be for that room. So you don't have to drop it again and adjust the bars and all that stuff. It's all completely automated and motorized really, really cool and you know great sounding stuff. They use the same drivers as D and B all powered boxes really, really, really nice stuff. So check out PK sound, I think It's something that you would probably find pretty interesting. And so today, I'm really excited actually about the guests we have today. I'm so happy that he was able to find the time to do this a designer, I've been following for a while. I love his work, I love the size of some of his work, all of his work actually he's one of these guys that gets to do these monster monster things and so this gentleman can be found today working with some of Of the most successful artists and shows in the world of music, including Adele Phil Collins Rammstein and the Rolling Stones and so please welcome mr. Rowland Grill.

10:10 Roland. Hello, how are you? Very good indeed, very good and pleasure to be here with you today. Is it morning afternoon or evening where you are? It's evening actually tested our family dinner which is one of the great things of being at home because you do your office work during the day. And, and you have a lovely family dinner and then you look after you yes, business, which is perfectly slots in after the little one goes to bath. So at home in Munich at the moment, which is cool. Perfect, perfect. So you're in the city? I remember. You're hearing somewhere that you live in the mountains, or near the mountains, or mmm. Basically, I grew up very much in a Countryside in between Munich and the mountains.

10:53 So I've always been a mountain boy in our day and age a little bit outside of Munich and small town, but literally I think five miles to the city limits of Munich, which gives me the best of both worlds. You have old amenities of somebody's in the big city but when I open up my door too, My house, it's all green fields, and woods and nice. Nice trails to walk and a good combination, that's good. Yeah, I I'm a mountain guy too. So, I was born and raised and grew up in Calgary Canada. And so, I have a house just outside of Calgary in the mountains and love it.

11:35 You know, I go there for the summer, and I'm leaving in another few weeks to go until October and I just loved it up there. I just A different feeling. Like some people love to look out at the ocean. I like that too. But I just something about mountains that do it for me. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I even whatever that's 13 years or 12 years ago, I took a little break from our crazy industry to recharge, the batteries, and the went to Alaska to stay for free and a half months over the winter in Alaska ago. No Machining and heli-skiing and through all my dollars into heli, blades and had a hell of a time. So, how the mountains do Do it for me was that I was recharged and full steam ahead. Alaska, hella skiing in Alaska.

12:20 Geez, there you go like there's a lot of hella skiing around where where I have my house and I've done it not recently because the older I get the harder it is to prepare my legs just for regular skiing. Now you know because I can't ski, I can still from a talent standpoint, I can still ski at the level that I did when I was 20 years. Old. But from a fitness standpoint you know my legs are just so tired, so quickly. So I just I don't trust myself to go heli-skiing anymore. It's just I think I would have an epic crash. Hmm. All right. Fair enough. An epic crashes have less appeal, the older I get, you know, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I got you.

13:07 Yeah, so you've been very busy. I appreciate you taking the time to, you know. Oh, to schedule this in the middle of all the little things that you're working on these days. So so you know, I want to if you've ever heard any of my podcast, I like to kind of talk through a little bit about your story, how you got into it, you know, I you've probably told it before so I apologize but my audience probably hasn't heard it. I heard a rumor that you actually either wanted to or started out as an audio guy. I wanted to be an audio guy. I mean that's a long long time ago. I had this come-to-jesus moment when I was about I think seven or eight years old my old man good old dad took me to a country western country and western concert in the area where I grew up, literally, small gig German country and western, it's not at all comparable to what it is in the states. Obviously.

14:06 Yeah. There are those more or less cover bands. And it's all a very Small, amateur level seen but there's a scene and it like, is it American country music or is it German similar? Yeah, our takes on chairman, takes an American country music. Most of them are horrible, to be honest. Very cheesy and I can vary from country out there which I really love and I've got a lot of respect for, but it would say 80% of the country in western brands. Our country banned in Germany, they are cover bands are playing everything from Johnny Cash to graph.

14:47 Brooks, and possibly nowadays. Also some some using of the younger guys out there, not being into one in whatever 25 years now. Yeah. But nevertheless that that specific country and western concert. I don't remember the band's name or anything little Roland sword is sound engineer behind us. Mixing board actually and Ed was aside the come to Moment where I said, it's like, I want to be a sound engineer. This is my, my plan for my future. I abandon all the plans of getting a firefighter or race car driver or astronaut or whatever. And I wanted to be a sound engineer. And so that was the mission from that point onwards.

15:27 And then forward with a fast forward of whatever 23 years started to shoulder and build my own little homemade Lighting systems for my my room. My kids room at my parents house and Then I started to rent that out to friends who celebrated any parties or did any parties started to work as and local state hand and unique. Never got paid for it. But nevertheless, I felt like the king of the world working at and Tina Turner show. Nevertheless, I just put up 10,000 folding chairs. It was my job, but nevertheless, I was merging working there. I did other things I did, you know, I was very, very small, skinny kid when I was like, 14 15 or whatever. And I got hired by a promoter in Calgary Canada to work security at concerts and I'm thinking me security, little long-haired, skinny kid.

16:23 You know I couldn't have stopped anybody or anything from happening. I don't know how I got hired as security but usually I ended up putting away chairs. Yeah. Fair enough. Lighting. Some companies started to work for them to in local gigs and round about the age of 17, 18 little bit before I graduated school or finished school, I thought sound is fun, but sound is not necessarily great of enough for me, it was like, literally, because sound At least in a lifestyle and environment you need expertise and there's absolutely no knowledge needed to do it without any doubts. But it is, it's a very academic process because your mission is to transport whatever is happening on stage. Even if there's a band playing or a musical or whatever in the boss best possible, All the way to to the audience and make it making hearable.

17:27 I never thought of it like that like a you know you're exactly right. Like sound is basically it's either good sound or bad sound, there's not creative ways of manipulating, the sound or whatever, it's good sound or bad sound. If you're a good sound guy or girl you're going to make it sound really good but there's there's not a lot of creativity to that I agree with you. That's a very, very good point. I've never thought of it that way. I mean it's different. If you, if you think About the studio engineer. So there's creativity degraded, great new music and how you mix it and now he whatever more in-depth channeling and stuff, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But the life environment at least for me, it wasn't enough. So I moved on to lighting and then really pretty much worked my way up through the food chain, is like virtually from working on small gigs around here rigging lights, and pulling cables and pushing boxes to ring. Lights and pushing boxes on tours in Germany than on an international scale and moved on from there and some order to programming side of things and more taking thing nitty-gritty stuff.

18:35 Yeah. I'm not going to ask you your age but what when you got started doing all that stuff? Was that pre moving lights or where they're already moving? Was It was kind of the time were like, literally moving lights were around mostly very light is a moving. Light is a moving Even had it was only very loud when I started basically and they were scanners but it was still predominantly times with generics with Parkins moles Lee goes, all that stuff. So very old-school. And yeah, when I really got kind of involved in the industry, it was still amazing to have whatever 8 scanners on your tour, or on your show and it was because again, when I started, I was not doing well. Soldier, Phil Collins or Genesis or whatever picture shows job is the back at that, they already played with bigger automated rakes.

19:30 Yeah, it was far off the scale that was like, yeah, different planet. So and I'm, I'm thankful that I started to learn to work with generics and move conventional lighting, because it gives you a think, a good background, and a lot of rules and approaches, which you take with conventionals and generic. You can easily translate into the world of I agree. Automated lighting and make a difference. Yeah, no. I completely agree with you and and I would have to say, you know, without shaming any younger people or anything that I generally appreciate shows done by people who had done it before without moving lights, I generally like those shows more because they use moving lights more, I don't know.

20:20 It's just different, it's more. Nuance. And and unless, just in your face, kind of, you know, moving them, just because they can move kind of thing, right? It just seems more planned and, and more, I don't know, creative more theatrical, whatever you want to call it. 100% 100%, is like I've done for the last forever 15 years of time, quite a few lectures around the world. And what I love to say is like, literally, it's not a moving light because It has to move toward, right? It is it's an automated light which can you can use it in multiple focuses and in multiple colors and everything. But sometimes, having whatever a big value or a great effect could be awesome, but it doesn't need to move all the way from the show.

21:09 You know, it's funny takes when I've had really, really early Vera light people on the podcast. And we talked about that and, you know, originally, they were move in black and, you know, when they were When the the stuff for Genesis in the very early days and you know, somebody saw one that there was a mistake or a failure or something and it moved with the light, still on, without the shutter closed. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa wait what did I just see? You know and once once that cat got out of the bag, you know, then it was like okay these things need to move with the light on and but that's not how it was intended. It was just supposed to reposition, it wasn't supposed to be a moving.

21:52 Beam. So it's kind of a funny thing. So what was your what was like your first Big Show or your first tour? Or like the first thing when you went? Wow this is it like this is really what I want to do forever. As a tour awesomely for Floyd. Floyd when they took pure balls in the 94, 95, something like that. Which has always again, as a young younger kid. Yeah, again, was, I think with my dad back in the day because that obviously, what Brickman did for them was pretty outstanding, especially, especially for that time.

22:32 And then obviously, I was already kind of in kind of drawn in Were any kind of technology which was related to two shows, or do the event world or show world? Don't determine world. What about the first way of you actually did that? You worked on? First, memorable thing. The first like bigger memorable show or tour possibly, it was working for a German artist and I was a Lampe actually kind of Peter maathai. Big test in Germany, Austria Switzerland sir. Okay, nobody will know him abroad but nevertheless, he feels Arenas and back in the day, he even filled stadiums over here as a germanized. The German artist.

23:21 Yeah. And I was out on the road as the simple lamb. People think well, I'll a reading lights and the show was done by my by now. Dear friend couldn't exactly the term old German. LD again, somebody's in big in the German Market. Never really made it out of the German Market or didn't want to. Yeah. And he did a fabulous job because he picked on especially what we just said. A little very theatrical approach. Like literally lights, don't need. Move. It's all about Great Looks and in the combination chest, there was some magic in it because the lighting is created and it was a simple but still good-looking set design combined with the music which was performed in a very cool way. Was just one of those magical moments which he again kind of convinced me 100% of done the right decision to not go to university and take or do a study in get a doctor or something like that.

24:19 And at the end, End of the day like literally convinced come my way and it showed me where I want to head, I mean, was always this step-by-step process because when you're working on those tours, then you obviously looking at when I get back behind the board at some point and you want to program it and then you do that. And then, you start to look, look out in the world and see that. Obviously, in terms of the life entertainment Market, decide of Ramstein, Germany is very much or Germany. Switzerland, Austria is Much main cloth or a very small Market because you've got bigger acts over here and they fill stadiums and they feel Arenas, no problem, but they do it within the free German speaking countries.

25:04 Such as Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Yeah, so we are not necessarily the hot spot for the international touring, senior, International live entertainment. See ya. So you, you obviously, I could kind of very much attracted to work in, either in the UK, or in In the u.s. to get leave that bubble of Germany into work, for some bigger names and choose improper touring where you're out on the road for a year or travel around the world. Yeah. And it was all those steps and then I moved on and I mean I've always been a little little kind of had the luck at the right moments of time to meet the right people who gave me chances and we took me under their wings and gave me chances to break out of our national Market into the more International Market.

25:50 I'm guessing it was more than just luck, you know, I've read a lot of things about you and heard some interviews and stuff and people tend to really be sort of attached to just your general attitude and how nice of a person you are, how easy you are to work with and how good you are to work with. And I think that you know, and I'm going to sound really old but young kids these days really need to learn that like they need to learn first of all that That you should say yes. A lot. You know, you should you should always try and figure out a way to do it. If somebody asks, you do you know how to do this? You should say oh yeah, yep, I can do that and then go figure it out really quickly. Right.

26:32 Yep. Within safety. You know, boundaries of course, but but the other one is, you know, pardon my French but don't be an asshole. Basically, you know, be a nice person and in hundreds of people want to work with and share a bus with God forbid or or whatever. You seem to be one of those guys. And, and I think that obviously helps absolutely, I tried my best and I mean, thanks God. Again, I learned, I had to be honored to learn from quite a few. Really good people, but learn obviously the, the craft of either programming or designing, or working, as a Lampe back in the day, it doesn't matter. But I were foremost, I also learned how to to act and behave within our industry and how to, I think.

27:21 The high go up in the ranks. If you can say, that way the day by day, gets more important to be in Humble, nice human being. And, yeah, it's more about the political things and also accepted some point. That ultimately, we are all service providers. We are, you know, the role of Designing Big Show's. Yes, you are a creative. Yes, you are a designer but you're not an artist. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. It's never about us or nearly never about us except you're doing whatever one of those lighting festivals where you lied to Red Square in Moscow. Or yeah, something like that.

28:01 There you pause the light in the middle of. Yeah, exactly. No, it's funny. I there's a few designers I could mention who do think that there are they artists, you know, and I won't mention who they are, but everyone knows some of them for sure. But I mean, you're exactly right. You know, just being humble and and being a A nice enough person. But the other thing that I've read about you was, you know, your management of budgets to like, you know, sometimes I know designers, who say, well, absolutely not, if I can't get those hundred fixtures, I cannot make this show work, you know, and you seem to be the guy who says, okay. Well, you know, if we're losing x amount of dollars from the budget, you know, let me figure out what I can do. And yeah, you just make it work, right? 100% And I I mean in my in my opinion, or in my point of from my point of view, the work design is by delivered by definition, an art form that technically needs to work. And that all obviously means that it needs to technically you work within the reserve that kind of the restraints you have in terms of Irina size venues I have something that can put. It also obviously indicates our includes that. It needs to work within a given budget and it's very important. I think that's 100% because it doesn't matter if you're doing a small theater project or if you doing some of the biggest touring shows out there Rammstein or something like that or Genesis, which I had the

29:33 honor to do but even they are you there is a budget limit. Especially nowadays is that is our especially the music industry has changed. As most of the artists are nearly all the artists nowadays make their money by doing live shows and any kind of album was always more to promote New, Life shows the opposite way round is here, I think as it has been. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You see where you toward to sell records? Now you you tour to make money and selling records is just sort of an art form. It's not really a profit Center. So absolutely, so unless you Taylor Swift, I guess Taylor Swift. Yeah, money on everything she touches. But yeah, it's a exceptions to Giroud to the rule. Yeah, for sure.

30:20 So, how do money so you've got to deliver within your restrained, of course? Yeah. Now, and again, I mean, don't be an asshole, be a nice person that that people want to tour with and want to be around and, you know and you know, I read that I don't know if it was on your website or something, but I read lots of, you know, just testimonials and comments from people just saying, you know, he's just a great person and you know that matters. I mean, because in our industry there are some who are not unfortunately. So so, you know, I'm fast-forwarding a little bit, I think. But, well, first, I want to ask you, you know, you went from being what, you're calling a Lampe to being a programmer.

31:05 I guess what was the first console? That you programmed? Very first console, very lucky. You won't know it is from JB or it was on a generic side. It was I thinking Eva lights and sapphires or 120 Channel console, which just got the makes onboard. So, in my very early days, we still used analog consoles. Nevertheless, the index was around already, so it was not before that time in terms of intelligent automation, mated lighting isn't shabby lighting something, which was a very small controller. I remember that all.

31:45 Yeah, or the scan Commander then Stan Commander obviously, exactly. Moving on to them a dance game commander and then there's the whole industry progress, we all promised to hold up to spec. Basically, a very short stem, don't talk one but that wasn't really in. That was also the time when this thing was out, I wasn't really in the Sure. Yeah, I talked to was the one where? My programming career really started. Yeah. God with yeah. Hug to. I've talked about this with other people before, but hog, too. I think changed the industry in that programmers were suddenly being paid as programmers, you know? And, and it became like a real art form. And a real, you know, a job where you could actually make a better day rate than just being a lighting Tech or whatever. Right.

32:41 And yeah, yeah. Hog to seem to really change that. And I remember people, you know, it became a marketplace where it was like, hey, do you know any hog programmers do you know any hog programmers? And, you know, I was always connecting programmers with shows who needed programmers and stuff. So yeah, hog to seem to change that. So, I mean, in Germany, do you even have a choice of console anymore or is it just an MA console and that's it. And nowadays, I think Tamar, the market is pretty much dictated by Ma. I mean, there are still a few others out there. There are few chances consoles out there that are very lucky. A few Flying Pig consoles out there, but pretty much at least at a certain scale of show.

33:30 Yeah. Is the same as anywhere in the world. Yeah. Yeah. The weapon of choice is an MA. So our um, a two or a three I mean, as I don't program that many shows by myself anymore, to be honest in the only show in the last whatever 56 years, our program by myself was also the video game gun stones, and still program by myself? Yeah, I stayed with them, a two to a certain degree because it did everything for me and known entity fun. Exactly. And it's I think them a free platform will be great and is already great and will be absolutely The Next Step. As with a lot of things you need time to, he's stopped, I didn't learn it, you know, dive into it and make it work and then you've got to use it.

34:20 I mean, there's this, you've got to have to be in the saddle and use it to, to really get efficient on it. Yeah, yeah. People people have such opinions on that. I love to ask the question because, you know, like, I know some people who are very qualified, very fast programmers on the ma to, and Muscle memory. You know, you know, every movement that you need to make it's all muscle memory. You've done it so many times and ma3 you have to stop everything and think about it and you got to do things and it's a different syntax and all of this stuff and so it's it's not that it's better or worse. It's just, you know, an annoyance, right? Because they're just so used to it, right?

35:01 So the big difference, if you compare it, when it all changed from ma 1 to M A 2 and that will still my Heavy programming days. Basically. Somewhat, 10 years ago, we hit every limit you can with ma-1 consoles. So, they were just on the limit in terms of performance and what they could do. And what you could achieve of them and you've built systems, which were really not stable anymore because they were just out of their comfort zone. And yeah, there was a need to move on to em. Ay, 2. Because the ma to platform add more performance. You, it was the better tool. To program this size of Rick's, we were there back in the day, controlling that is slightly different.

35:46 I think for 95% of all shows around the world doesn't matter in which part of the industry, without any problem, you can run it on to. So it will tie take a little more time. And as you say, the muscle memory is the one thing. But it's also about finding the time and also the motivation to learn them from you. If you don't need to learn something new. They will do it because it will be better. Progress. Has all their ideas were are good so well it's also the ma to consoles are going to be dying, you know, because they can't they can only support them so long and so people are already running.

36:29 Ma threes with ma to software. A lot of them obviously, and eventually, I think it's just going to make so much sense and a lot of the designers I talk to now have already switched over. In there on ma3 now, you know, they just took some downtime figured out the console, got comfortable with it, and went out and toured with it. You know, we also really bad timing thing I think for for ma lighting because of covid, you know, right when they came out with the console, everyone stop touring. So nobody was using it and you know, so it was a very problematic time for that to happen. Not that I feel sorry for them because now they're selling as many consoles as they can produce. But yeah.

37:12 So when did you how like obviously it was a very good luck thing or a very positive thing that you connected with Patrick and Adam and so how and when did that take place? Whoo, it's a good time for some question because I can't tell you exactly how it happened. I first of all, I connected with that and that's somewhat by now. I think nearly 20 years ago, or something like that, or 18 years, but we didn't work together to start with if it's like, literally, we stayed in contact and we thought we liked each other and down the road.

37:54 When Adam was then heavily working for, Patrick is his associate in co-designer, the running his own entity back in a There was a need for some visualization work at Patrick's and for showing Brazil or something like that it was. And in those days I did quite a bit of visualization work for myself but also for other people with wysiwyg and then later on reviews provision and things like that. So it all started with Adam who have been in contact Loosely over the years putting me in touch with Patrick to do a bit of reading. Enduring when visualization work for him and we did that and that kind of worked out well.

38:36 So we did more, I did more resilient Nation work for them and ultimately that led to the next step ultimately to that they needed somebody the lighting director or programmer for a very small show and then we jump into that that water together, and try it out that water together to work on a real show. Not only putting renderings together, It seems that it worked out as well as well. And also we figured out that from a personality standpoint, we ticked and it all grew from there. And that was literally. Now, first show was about 15 years ago. 16 years somewhere, round about that region when we successfully run and yeah, and literally from from small shows, it evolved into bigger shows and evolve.

39:30 First of all, to just, take out shows for them. Who were somebody else program? Then I got more on the programming side, moved on to do the design, work for them work as an associate up to the point like projects would like whatever Rammstein or are Genesis which we code is on door. So you literally mean Patrick co-designed, and I'm very thankful for for both of them. Adam as well as Patrick because they've been first of all, sir. Were influential in my career there and they opened up doors and I mean, obviously to put whatever Rolling Stones on your credit list and having worked with those guys open stores to other projects internationally. Yeah.

40:14 And opens up the door to the wider world and is out of all that foremost, I learned a lot from them. I learned a lot about lighting as well as about. I can't imagine. Yeah, how does that work Tocco? Designing a A show like the size of Rammstein with with Patrick Woodruff, you know, are like, who sends the first idea? And then, how does that? Is it a collaboration? Is it, you know, he just kind of gives you really high level stuff and then you send it back to him with all the details filled in or how does it work on every project? Some sometimes I'm some possibly not so much but there are some projects. He's got a big eyed He's got the high-level idea. And you just kind of Refine it and give it some life. Yeah, on other shows like whatever ramps a instance we all we all started on a or even Genesis we started on a clean, white canvas and the good thing is they were both able to I think switch off our our egos and just play that creative ping-pong and ultimately in this is also the take on any project. I do which I've learned over the years, it doesn't matter who's got an Idea as long as the idea is, this is beneficial to the show or to their project here in on that ski. And then if you, if you can switch your ego off at that point of time in The Wider

41:47 group, as well, with the set designer, a production designer with the production manager, everybody in the perfect world with everybody and sit around a table and chest. Do some brainstorming and share ideas and played a ping-pong. That is a great breeding ground for great ideas to grow. Yeah, to really create some magic and this is exactly. I mean, one of the cool things about the collaboration I had with Patrick over the years it's like actually that we when we co.design stuff it was always on that level and there's like literally it was like playing ping pong. He had an idea. Greg, let's do it this way. I had an idea. All right it shouldn't put it. That way and I'll give you ever say no to one of Patrick woodruff's ideas. Honestly I'm I'm an honest person so we are all humans and even the Patrick would have sometimes possibly at least in my eyes at that point of time has got an idea which is not the greatest I think or is possibly a wrong wrong way to go and it suggests it's an open discussion board without any ego. So there's nothing wrong about saying no to some some. Yeah, or at least share your opinion about it in vice versa, if you, if you here.

43:03 Here at that level to share ideas away that your you also can criticize or be criticized. And it's perfect because it's just so interesting, though. Because Patrick is such a legend, you know, Patrick has done this at such a high level for such a long time. So, I would think that I'd be sweating a little bit and maybe shaking and saying, but Patrick, do you think maybe this would be a better idea? And then like, don't hit me, you know, Things about my dear friend, Patrick is like he's been without any doubt. Very successful over a very long period of time. Possibly one of the most successful out there, at least over the years. Yeah.

43:47 But nevertheless, he's a human being and he's a great character. He's most of the times down to earth, so it's It's a great relationship which I really feel humbled that we were able to create this, good relationship. And so obviously you still doesn't start that way. It builds over the years and yeah, one probably you earned that his trust and respect very early on and that carried you through there like he knows when rolling brings an idea to the table, it's probably not a stupid idea. I'm going to listen to it and then maybe add my color to it or whatever. But You know you're going to be treated as an equal. Not as not as you know, a junior designer or something but what was I going to say?

44:35 So if I look at a video of Genesis or a picture of Genesis like are there elements that you could point out and say that was my idea that was Patrick's idea that was my idea or did it all just blend together? As well as I would say. It's better both moment in the show is like this is quite a few things where it all Blends together. Yeah, there are moments, which is or even possibly sometimes songs or PODS of the show with a good family that was done by myself and there's parts of this. Her actually, that is Patrick thing. Yeah, but again, ultimately down down the road. It doesn't matter because as long as you achieve a great result, or a better result by sharing thoughts, and Hiring creative ideas. We can only be better, I think.

45:24 Yeah. So for both ends, ultimately, Yeah, that's that's really cool. So, you know what? Like maybe from earlier on maybe from Recently, but what's like some of the big things or one of the big things that you learned from working with, you know, Patrick Woodruff with a legend like, what's, what are a couple of the biggest things that you? You have taken away from that. Possibly the biggest thing overall. I've taken away from my long-term relationship and friendship. Chip with Patrick is how you really kind of sell yourself, how you behave, how you deal with your clients or artists, or you talk to them, how how you do all these communication birth?

46:09 Because, I mean, it's quite an interesting part on bigger shows and the bigger shows I getting the less you're really designing, is if you're in the role of a co-designer or lead designer. Yeah, because you're more and more slipping into the role of this political The interface between the end client who could be one artist, or it could be a group of people. Yeah. And basically, the team, which is really doing the work, which is programming it or your associate is einar who makes meeting really work and being that interface and and being that person, what I've learned to do, you always?

46:50 It's got a good overview over the bigger picture so it's not only that moment it's never only about lighting. It's always the bigger picture which includes all visual elements and it and again also that The most important part of any show is not our lighting or not our production design, or nor our, whatever special effects, it's the guy who's on deck or on the stage or the group or whatever it is. Those are I think the few things I really, really appreciate or a really took away from ya working with somebody who's been successful over such a long time.

47:32 Yeah that's that's amazing. I mean what I say you know, again what a killer opportunity and and, you know, you bring so much to the table as well, but, you know, it's just such a killer opportunity to pair a pair up with somebody at the level of Patrick Woodruff, you know, he's like you said, arguably the biggest name, you know, for a very, very long career and and he he has sort of risen out of just the stones being the stones designer, you know, like I think That was one of the things that Brickman, maybe had a little trouble with is getting away from being Pink, Floyd's, lighting designer, and creating a new Mark Brickman, when Pink Floyd disappeared and where Patrick Woodruff has been very successful, you know, even into some architectural projects and things.

48:25 He's been very successful. So yeah, that's cool. You were you were like a really early Pioneer in the use of servers, right? I would say so, yeah, it was a Pioneer, don't know, but for sure, one of the first guys who played around with video or the integration of video into the lighting world and merging those two worlds. And yeah, I will get somewhere late nineties 98 to 99. That's pretty early started. We started to play around with very, very rudimental, Vijay tools and triggered videos by midi keyboards, which we put next to Claudia, you notice.

49:07 It's out a whole idea, started because we wanted to have control over that and got involved with rigid police their land in the UK food, and later on create a catalyst. Yeah. Possibly one of the very first uses of catalysts or however it was. It was cold, Sam's called something like that before it was pull Catalyst and I imported, and to start to really control video from a lighting board and because Then I thought he's in the early in my career, that it's whatever we create, it's not only about lighting. It's also the video part. It's just that part. It's all one thing and nothing against vidiots, but there are very at least.

49:52 Back in the day, there were more very much about their world and water LED screens. Now put the brightness up to 11 and you don't see any lighting anymore. So there was no real kind of Really working together of those two visual elements. So we re I really like the idea of getting more control of video. And yeah, we I mean and nowadays it has progressed so much. And again, with what I've done over the last five to ten years, I possibly it overtook me big time but we started back in the day. There's definitely paid dividends now because there's so much amazing.

50:35 Out there from different companies where disguise on the hippo and however, they all cold and has really formed and own industry within the industry. Yeah, media server programmers and all the stuff they're also doing this merge between servers and VR and AR and he has great. Yeah. Now it's going to be interesting to see where some of that technology goes like where you have like multiple formats happening where people Are wearing goggles at a concert or you know just different things like that. Like I can see this getting just nuts over the next 10 years, 15 years and consoles programming themselves.

51:17 I was talking to somebody about that on a podcast. Recently, you know, with all the advancements in AI, it's not going to be very long before the design or just talks to the console and the console programs itself, you know, I'm sure it's coming soon, you know, probably within the next couple of years Years. So video. You know, what would your opinion? And I know you you're interesting because you cross over like you're you do video for the stones, you're a lighting designer more or less video like do we need more or less video again it all comes down to what kind of show you want to create and what kind of artist you've got on on the deck, there are shows modern shows whatever any one of the younger pop artists where it is every ride.

52:09 In the world to create this very digital feel of using video as scenery and creating massive screens. Nevertheless, if you then if you on the other end of the spectrum, think about a proper rock band or metal band, whatever. Rammstein is a great example. Because in Ramstein things God we work with them band who doesn't like video at all which is I think a perfect fit because that kind of music that kind of stuff there. Trying to produce if anything but digital, it's very analog. It's rock and roll straight in your face. So you want to have a big massive architectural set and you want to have really strong lighting, you want to have pyro effects but what you don't want to have it or achieve is a huge television screen, which yeah, again, it wouldn't wouldn't be the right tool. It always comes down.

53:03 And I mean, if I, if I have a general take on design, anyway, it's not technical to Odd with because you design a show or you design a basic look for a show, you've got this image in your head or possibly as a sketch on your Sketchbook or possibly as a render doesn't matter. But you've got to certain look you want to achieve and this look then dictates what kind of tools are needed and it could be video but it could be no video at all. So there's yeah again it all comes down what the job needs. Not not just used to video because video is cheap a nowadays and you couldn't could afford whatever a few hundred square meters of LED wall.

53:50 And there's great amazing video products out there. Transparent screens with high resolutions in our days and lightweight screens and stuff which even kind of as flexible. And you can do lovely curve But ultimately that doesn't matter if it's a video a lot. And in my opinion never use Elegy for technology sake, it's all about using technology for a reason. The reason is always too great. Look, you're striving for or you want to achieve. Yeah, but so, you know, it's an interesting topic and again, I hate to keep bringing up Mark Brickman's name, but we had this conversation where, you know, the younger pop bands, like you said, they'd love to have this visual element and and lots of movement, and colorful things on the screens and lots of screens Oh, and maybe that fits really well, but when you get to a classic artists like the stones and you know, so I happen to love the design with the like for big iPhone video screens, right? And but I was talking to Brickman about it and Brickman said, I had a bit of a problem with it, and I said, why? And he said, because those video screens made Mick Jagger look small.

55:05 And he had a very interesting point because when you look at the stage, you see this tiny little Mick Jagger. And then you see these huge images of like stuff on the screens. And so, you know, he said, I would be fine with those screens if they were, I mag. But because they were sort of a combination of all kinds of things. It just tended to make Mick Jagger look small. So, it was an interesting comment. I mean, not that his opinion means everything, you know, it's just an opinion, of course. but, He's not wrong if I look at I mean we toured no filter design were just talking about. Yeah. For I think four years 17, 18, 19 and 21 are four years.

55:48 Educating taught the same design but what? Obviously evolved over the year years was first of all the video content a little bit. And also what we did with those walls when we started in in 17, it was mostly using them as As this big Scenic Elements which ultimately translates and I get pregnant point there, it translates into making the musician on stage. Look small compared to this, right? I right hours of video but down the road we started possibly worth having 50% content on and 50%. I make either I make only but or most of the times, I make em better embedded into content immersed into play. I saw some of that.

56:38 Yeah, which is already, I think the right way to go, but ultimately the years this show in this design progress, I think we got more and more I make back in. I make always used in a way that it didn't look like a big belly screen because it's something I I don't like at all. And thanks God. Patrick doesn't like either to have a huge tiny screen and possibly normal 8:44 format. Yeah, that's wrong. And there are even if you have a screen which has got exactly those the scale or this this measurement, there are still easy ways to get out of this little loophole and to putting whatever a little gradient around to hold. I'm accusing.

57:26 Yeah tinting the Makes always make it feel more like a beautiful art piece which is in the background. Obviously still being able to transport the important information which is Keith Richards playing a solo. Yeah. Or whatever is in important indication, you know, like you said, it's different. It's always different. It depends on the artist. It depends on the situation, obviously, you know, in a stadium. You're going to have different needs than in an arena or whatever. But yeah, I mean, Mean it, you know, for an EDM Artists, for example, you want the craziest images and and all kinds of really crazy content and stuff because everybody in the audience is stoned out of their brains on Molly looking up at these screens going. Whoa you know and and the artist is is a DJ so you know it's not Mick Jagger right very different. Yeah absolutely yeah now that's that's a that's a cool thought like video it seems like we've gone through these these Ends with video when when LED screens first came available and I don't know if you remember what was it element Labs their stealth screen when people started using that like crazy and just putting video on anything they could.

58:40 And it just kind of really took over from lighting and like you said, they kept getting higher in their nits and brighter. And now you had the screens getting brighter. So the lights had to get brighter and it just became like this in your face. Like oh my God. It's bright. Like you couldn't see. The artist because there was just so many lights, blasting you in the face all the time. And then it seems like we've gotten back to a point where it's a really nice blend right now. Like the shows that I'm seeing now video is being executed in a much more. I wouldn't say subtle it's not subtle at all but it's just better blended with the lighting. It's not like competing with the lighting and lighting is not trying to outdo the video. It just seems to be nicely put together now. For the reason.

59:27 I think that. Yeah, the most popular now, but that's the way to go. I mean, this is a side. Even though you're possibly only the lighting designer, you always should keep in the back of your head. Did you always love? You should keep the bigger picture in the back of your head. Basically the bigger picture is anything. Our eyes. He's or if you talking about a broadcaster or a TV production, anything the camera sees and Sometimes I like to put on my, my audience, and my punter classes, which is literally, because if I go to a show, obviously me is coming from our industry. We go into a show and you look around, it's like, wow, there's the news moving, like, there's this great thing and he's using dead. Why is he doing that?

1:00:11 But if you don't have our background, you'd go into a show to foremost. See your artist. Enjoy a lovely evening and be hopefully be immersed into the show by by some lovely visuals, but you don't take or you. Don't pay any attention on the kind of technology which is used in zone of the Fall. So, yeah, always about the whole thing, and they don't really differentiate between lighting or video. They what they see is always kind of the sum of all different visual elements. But yeah, lighting. Which is video, which is your set production design, which is any specialist in experience, its anything. Experience and all part of an experience. They're all components elements, exactly. Those components need to work together. Yeah, really great magic, in this amazing moments, or amazing looks on shows, or it has to work together and it has to work for whatever action is happening on stage. Yeah, and I wouldn't even limited to two. Any kind of rock and roll stuff for music stuff. It doesn't matter if there's a band on stage or if there's a theatrical piece.

1:01:23 Happening on stage, or if it's a musical or if it's even a boring corporate gig, where they present the new Chevrolet something again, there it is all about the car and it has two. We just create this visual picture frame around it and all elements of the visual picture frame should work together in the best possible way to give the artist or whatever. The action stage is the best possible canvas to really draw the detail. And it's funny that you're in Germany, but you Elected an American car for your example. A Chevrolet, like, I like American cars, and I like American Motor Sports. Yeah, for that reason.

1:02:04 Yeah, even so I'm driving. I'm driving the trim. And one. Yeah, me as well as well. I'm a big fan of German cars, you know, it's just German cars to me. Like, when you pull the door it goes. Whoop, it closes like with it, boom, and it's solid, and there's no rattles after it closes, you know, with a Ford or a GM or something, you close the Or and it rattles 45 minutes after, you know, they're just not built quite as solid, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So Rammstein, which you've corrected me on, I was calling them Rammstein, which I guess is wrong, but Rob jumps down from Stein. So that came to you through Patrick correct?

1:02:47 Yes. And no, I mean, it was basically that the initial contact was from Maya. Back in the day, I had four years somewhere for five years, where I Channel all my own business through Woodruff passive design, Patrick's Anatomy company as well where we we kind of collaborated, 100%, which was ended by covid album, Italy. But that's a different story. And I think the very initial contact. Was my dear old friend. Nicholas sobotka. Who's Rammstein production manager? Okay, and we chatted about Ramstein and we chatted about Out the day of possibly heading out again and that they could possibly want. Did they were interested in possibly changing their design. Team to just do something different because, yeah, not not for any bad reason.

1:03:37 Because I think what Roy did for them, they were abandoned did for them for some wood 10 or 15 years. He spent with them is outstanding, and I think Roy was influential in the the visual appearance of the band big time. So there was no no, no no. Bad blood or no reason to move on just because they were not happy, they just wanted to have something different and gotten different options. So this is what's the really kind of? The starting point of the conversation we had and then obviously as I was with Patrick in full-time, kind of permalinks and unique, hold it in new words that obviously went through the wbb Raider. And basically it went from there and then obviously Patrick got involved as well.

1:04:26 Because before I'm detecting those patterning myself to start with, but from the get-go, it was kind of very, very obvious that this production will only be a success if we also got a sparing partner in terms of production design, because yeah, so I contacted my my friend Florian Vita Who funny enough is from the same city. Basically really grew up in Munich Munich kind of immunity homey as well, but he's always been over in the in the broadcast industry. He's been big, I mean, broadcast World, who's possibly the moment at least the most successful or most most sought-after production designer worldwide, doesn't matter if in Europe or in the states. Nevertheless, rock and roll was a little, a little new for for him, but we brought him on board and he brought so much to that project.

1:05:27 I mean, ultimately, the great thing was, again, the three of us had dragged myself as well as Florian. We switched off our all our egos and plated ping-pong together to create what ultimately was then. Decided by the band to take out. What about all the Scenic Design? Well Florence. It's the needy and greedy that detail. Work is Florian and who know who knows his main kind of In-House art directors as co-designer. Super super talented man, from Community as well. And there was ultimately the three of us created the bigger picture, high level idea of where it should go.

1:06:15 So we had to the idea of building a tower Our are very dystopian Tower. Yeah, I had always seen any kind of weeks and really detail work than was done by floor and and Kuno. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how our you're talking about the the monster structure in the center of the stage. Well, yeah, that thing's outrageous. Like that's that. And then I don't know if it's like sound delay Towers or something, where you've got the Pyro coming out of the top of those. That show just blows my mind like, you know, and I've never seen it live, I've only seen it on video, but it blows my mind.

1:06:55 I mean, the Pyro is outrageous. The lighting is outrageous. The, the scenic designs are outrageous, the the costumes are outrageous. Just as a visual thing, it's just like mind-blowing you know and I have no idea what the hell the band is saying, you know like what is it? What is du hast mean anyways? Direct translation would be you've got me. Okay. Okay. And but it's ultimately that band is a proper playground for any grade of this industry because there are there you've got every right in the world to go to town in terms of visual Extravaganza and you really can take it to an extreme. And for a good reason, Thursday, What what they created over the years has been a very visual language and yeah I think at least at some parts of the career it was It was kind of fundamental to their success to do those crazy live shows and yeah and even in the smallest scale they did crazy things. I mean I guess there's boundaries that you have to stay within like you couldn't have a white set. You couldn't have pink lights, you know it has to be it's an industrial metal band, right?

1:08:16 Like It's not have that industrial look and they got their band corporate identity. We want to call it that way and within this band corporate identity, which they created mostly by themselves, helped a lot by /. I actually, I think. Yeah, just gives you definitely a direction and you can't break out completely, but you can put your own twist on it and you can take it too. It's could say to another level but you can and really progress on it and I think that is what we've achieved very very, very well together within the team of myself, Patrick and Florian but also the band by them, by their spy themselves because they're very involved in the whole process, really they called in the design aspect of it and the creative project.

1:09:10 Oh that's cool. Which member of the band. It's mostly Paul on the lighting side, one of their guitar guitarists, you super interested, but all of them have got an opinion, that's good, but in opinion in a very good way. So, and I mean, they've grown from literally playing in front of whatever 10 people in their very first early stages of their career, to what they are now, by far the most successful German act over the years, but they've always been very involved in to Especially pyrotechnics by themselves or especially, they can also their pyro because it's pretty incredible. It's amazing, it's funny enough. It's the company of the production manager because he founded in downtimes is being an E coli. Nicholas sobotka has been with from Stan, I think since the mid-90s or somewhere like that.

1:10:06 So also early stages and at some point they got they hit some limits in terms of what is Is. Achievable in terms of special effects and he had the thought that he could do it better. And he could because for some, some special effect, I think he's one of the best guys out there. So he founded his own company. I think originally, they only work with Ramstein but obviously, down the road. Did they ventured out as well? And it's called ffp. It's Berlin and Los angeles-based, and we're doing quite a bit of quite a bit of work. I mean, Roy got them involved as in been quite a few of his shows. So just really last year.

1:10:49 Yeah, they also did Lady Gaga. They did work for kiss post office and it's killer. It's just like, completely outrageous. I love it. So that show, like, so first of all, when did ROMs Rammstein get this big like when did they go from playing in regular Arenas like every other German act or whatever to being this massive stadiums? Sensation, when did that happen? It's it was, it's a process which happened over the years. I mean, I think the band was founded, don't know me down in that. In the, in the very early 90s. Literally, I mean, they all play together in different constellations in the 80s in the eastern part of Germany, before the Wall came down. Yeah, so this is where we'd all regions and it's all these from this very small rock and Roll punk rock scene from the East Germany, back in the days they started. And they got successful with saying it needs to know on a national level in the early mid 90s. And from there on continued by the late 90s. They were already doing Arenas and big Festival headlined. Slots in Europe.

1:12:11 And then they this it's a long story, but for everybody who's listening it's very worthwhile watching this documentary, really good film documentary film called Rammstein America. And that is to our film about how they broke into the American Market, which is obviously a difficult Market to break into and especially considering that they don't speak any English. Seeing any of your song, is it exactly that they got? Well, I think one one song Which is kind of English, but everything else, it's German and it's interesting how they took on it because when they have already been very very successful in Europe and in Russia and in in our end of the world, they wanted to break America and they go got over there and they played in a club in New York in front of 20, people, or 30 people. All this sort of started all started off from scratch to a certain degree again.

1:13:11 But they had so much commitment and obviously the act by itself works because it's really kind of in it's cool. It's were really groovy music, it works. It is, it is basically it's making fun of German stereotypes all the way through marching and yanking that way is nobody speaks in Germany metadata. Yeah. And that all combined with their very theatrical approach of doing live shows. It's got every right in the world to kind of be successful anywhere in the world. But if do they do stadiums everywhere though or just in Europe? There's no, I mean, when when we started to work with them and I mean, the beer still, or were still our New Kids on the Block with them because we just designed this tour, which is too loud for them.

1:14:02 That was their very first own stadium production before and they played, they played the biggest festivals in the world all around. The world they played in front of whatever 100,000 people are 200,000 people. In the end Russia, they played all the big big shows whatever at least a bigger the big metal show. Let's put it that way. Yeah and festivals. But from the point of view from the point of view of touring and touring Productions their limit was Arenas basically did Arenas and Festival. Yeah, so it was for them. It was a step up in terms of venue size and to really put together Own stadium production. Yapping was their first year of doing stadiums and I mean, proof of concept was that literally that first tour sold out in a heartbeat and still.

1:14:51 Now they're on the third third year running Europe with this show, how going, I think to most places they're going this year, they've been to and even if the third year, there are still they sell a show out and that's on that seem like it's and do you have two rigs like leapfrogging each other? Or is there days between shows or how does it work? It is, it isn't. Let's, let's put it that way. It isn't light, take on Stadium touring, but a very healthy way. And I think something most Productions in our day and age to, they got to steal sets, so full to for steelhead. So they leap frogging sort of you can do whatever to free for sure. Free shows a week or something like that. Yeah, they got a little bit of advanced production. Mostly cables a few lights, but very minimal. They're very, very minimal and then it's one big Universal Productions production, where they carry lighting rig, all the special effects PA system.

1:15:56 Most of the set or the cladding of the steel structure is also on, on a newer Universal. And so with this two-and-a-half-hour one-and-a-half shows which they're touring the can still do free shows a week which is I think a fair lie and that's, that's pretty cool. Yeah, they do no stupid stuff. Like whatever touring stadiums on that scale back to back which others have done and have to have done successfully. But then obviously, then requires a lot more money to be spent and possibly the lot more money. You spend doesn't make it worthwhile but they added income. Yeah. So I mean last question on Rammstein just because Interested, but does it make you like a national hero or whatever?

1:16:43 Now that you're working with the, the band that you know, is the Pinnacle of success in Germany? I wouldn't say so. And I so I see myself never as Nero. I'm just but it's really the most important lighting design job in Germany, Germany. In terms of touring, for sure. Yeah, it was I've been there or been together with Patrick up in the first German designer because they had a thing for the last fifteen, 15, odd years before nineteen thirty, two thousand late 90s.

1:17:29 I would have cut to look it up. They work with Leroy and very successfully. Yeah, Leroy did amazing work for them. Yeah, so it must have been somewhere in the late. Mind. Is that the whole show was designed by German last time? Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. Obviously, makes you feel a little proud to be honest? Yeah. Yeah. It has to. It has to, you know, I'm Canadian. So I, you know, I guess it would be similar to, I don't know, rush or something in Canada, but even not even close. Because Canada doesn't have any big Stadium stuff like that. Right? But, yeah, I know that's really, really, super interesting. I want to see that show live at some point. I'd love to see it in Europe.

1:18:09 No, not not here in the US and Europe where it's like a cultural phenomenon sort of, you know, it's like yeah, that'd be pretty fun. So speaking of like German bands and stuff do you know a metal band called destruction? I read about them, and I think, in my youth, I've listened to a bit of metal had won album of them. I don't really remember much more. I mean, they do all the festivals all the, you know. You guys are so big on these metal festivals. Like when metal was totally dead in the rest of the world, Germany, it was still alive and well, yep. Yeah. And these. So, anyways, my one of my good friends from Canada that I kind of grew up with is the drummer in that band in destruction heel. And I think he's married now to a German girl. And so he's been with Destruction for, I don't know, 10 years or something, very small. Well yeah, so I like to end each episode with just basically your go to gear.

1:19:14 So, you know, the gear that you have to have on every show like, call it five things, five pieces of equipment that you won't do a show without or can't do a show without Out, right, depends on the show. I mean, we could talk about a concert, I would say any show needs moles in any shape or form in nowadays, things. God. Now, we got some LEDs substitutes, which work as a mold, I would put in there, you need some kind of instruments, doesn't matter if they're automated or not to do a proper key lighting for your band and beside of that, a comfy chair to sit in front of house. Not the first person who has said that, I would guess. So, I learned one thing from from from Patrick which I tried to do.

1:20:03 Also, my own projects, is to get a comfy couch on top of that, at least, for programming, not for during a shower, but programming. Yeah. And it's our own, your own Comfort, but it's also psychologically, a great great asset. If you're talking to your client. And he, or she comes out to front of house and we can put on my couch, the couch. That's a lot. And a good team around. You have a console gaming console and console, let's put it in the console of the choice of your programmer. And if your program, if they were programming myself and ma yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

1:20:44 Cool. Did I miss anything? I don't know. Like, I tried to go through your career when I, when I Was preparing for this and you've done so many things, I mean, obviously, Adele is another one But and there's there's an artist. I think it's a French artist or something that's huge. I mean, maybe it's a German a woman Elena Fisher is a journey. A German artist. Yeah. I got a few bits and pieces for her also quite a big show. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I was blessed to do some interesting stuff and now a day and age. It's not about the size anymore because as we all have or everybody has I had a face in my life where it was All about Size Matters and yeah, bigger shows but by now it's more about the quality of the show and it all comes down to the quality of the people you're working with. On one side within your team or within the team of creatives or production, but also on the client side or on the other end of the cable is of the artist.

1:21:47 And if you work with the right people, it doesn't matter. It could be a very, very small show as long as you achieve something which is special or this is Magic if you can achieve that. And that the best breeding ground is working with cool people. This is what I'm striving for that's that's when you've won life, I guess. Is when you really enjoy the people that you're working with and everyone respects each other. So if you had to choose one of your shows you know 22 if you were to get hit by a bus tomorrow, God forbid and one show had to be the one that you're remembered for, what would it be? Welcome you to the last Genesis. Yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful show. Unbelievable talked about it before we started recording, but it was sad to see Phil Collins.

1:22:36 You know, unable to perform like he would have liked to, obviously, but visually what? A beautiful show. Thank you. And then it was also, it was, it was a big, big challenge. I mean, Patrick has worked with them, at least twice before, but I was a new kid in town. New Kid in this camp. I work with the Phil Collins group for, for a few years, but obviously doing Genesis, which isn't heavily influential. And within our part of the industry, as so in terms of lighting and they've always pushed the boundaries they've always been groundbreaking for a lot of things doesn't matter, whose think about back in the early 80s with very lives later on with you possibly that the first band who tore bigger video screens and Zone in the fall.

1:23:26 Yeah, that was some big shoes to fill to a certain degree and some big challenge, especially nowadays because and nowadays, it's a little different more difficult to create something groundbreaking because there's a lot of Technology out there. Yeah, every little slap in Munich uses. Moving not so nothing special. Yeah, to fill those shoes. And I think, within the team we work together on there with Patrick and Jeremy Lloyd from WonderWorks of detecting design. Also the production and the Band. By itself, we achieved achieved in a really cool way to be Progressive, and also take Genesis into the 21st century to bridge to put a bridge in between their Heritage and their long-standing careers. But also you had mccollins fulfill some playing the drums. Yeah, actually.

1:24:20 And so you've got to basically a 20 year old kid. On stage playing drums, super talented but there's just to generate two generations on that can be there was cool and it was emotional it's like possibly at some point it was possibly at some point. I will have the same moment with the stones or any other of his horoscope and Stones can't wear forever. Although they've been trying to pretty much one year ago, end of end of March Oh, that the O2 Arena and the last night hit was like evening the night was still. Yeah, it felt a little different, but the next morning when you realized, you just done the last show of one of the last remaining, big, giant sand in the pop / rock music roll. Yeah.

1:25:15 Wow. Yeah. Now it's and unfortunately, you know, you're a bit younger than me but at my age like a lot of my heroes are starting to die now. Now you know it my musical heroes are starting to die and and retire for sure. It's sad, you know, it's sad it's every time someone dies you're like oh wow I remember the first time I heard that song Or that song or whatever right? And yeah so going out and touring with those I can imagine it would be very emotional Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, well, I appreciate you doing this very much Roland. I've enjoyed learning a bit about your career and certainly a lot more about some of these bands and stuff.

1:26:04 So, yeah, thank you so much for doing it. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for inviting me to chat with you and thanks for recording. All those things for generations to come. Hopefully you could listen to That and yeah, whatever tenuous time, absolutely, that's the whole idea is just storing these things in a vault, you know, everyone's stories and stuff because we're not going to be around forever and, you know, let's face it. The young kids need our help. These days 100% 100% need to be guided event. Well, thank you so much and safe travels and enjoy a few days off here. Thank you. Alright. Have a good one. Take care. All right.

1:26:45 Bye-bye.