#187 - Fausto Orsatti, truly one of our industry pioneers in product development

0:01 Thank you for joining us today on gays of Gear episode number 187 with Fausto. Orsatti, today's podcast is brought to you by main light. Main light is a lighting, rental partner who combines the resources of a national company with the Personal Touch of a local provider to achieve that objective. Main light is proud to have opened three new locations in the last two years with their fourth location opening February 20th in Teterboro New. New Jersey, Main light is equally dedicated to expanding their rental inventory. They consistently purchase the latest equipment and lighting truss and consoles from the newest trusting solutions to the full array of leading control consoles. Your lighting will have the technological support, it needs to reach Peak Performance.

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1:48 Well, hi and welcome again to episode 187. Pretty excited about today. Tadesse today's guest is another one of those favorite people of mine in the entire industry. I've known this is Faust or Saudi, I've known him for more than 30 years. Fausto, is based in Northern Italy, I believe he's still in the little town where Komar was based, which is custo goffredo, which is very near Lago. Di Garda Garda lake, and one of my favorite places in the world. I love the people there. I really enjoyed my time working with Fausto at Komar and again, I just I've known them more than 30 years. I think I worked with him for a handful of years. I've always found him to be one of the smartest and most passionate people.

2:39 In the industry and also deadly loyal. I mean he worked with with kalmar for I believe more than 25 years. So anyways, this should be a really great discussion. I hope you enjoy it and please welcome. My good friend file store. Sorry. Okay, so here we are. Fausto ciao, how are you? Joel Mozilla I'm fine. You know, it's really okay. It's been way too long since I've said Chow Fausto. I used to enjoy saying that about 25 times a day when we work together. Well that was fun. Time of our life. Yeah I see remember that as a real pleasure. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. You know it's funny too because you and Kiara both helped me to learn enough Italian so that I could not get screwed by the door. Oh so like Kiara told me how to say, you know, vent, they chant o ML and stuff like that.

3:36 And so I knew numbers in Ian and, you know, I knew a few things how to go to the bathroom or order food or something. I knew enough Italian to, to be able to get around Italy without getting killed and to be able to get around Como Amar without did or oh, you know, laughing because he just got me again or something even though I'm sure he did. No, no you you have you have it. Remember, you always have the advantage that the world is forced to speak English. Little except the door. Well, if it will accept him, accept wacky and accept those guys that don't care.

4:16 I mean, the world Italians. Yeah, the world has as to speak your language. So we're trying hard but whenever they're not native? Yeah. Yeah. No. I completely agree. Hang on a second because I'm seeing a anomaly here on the audio and I just want to make sure it's okay. Oh no, we're fine, sorry about that. So, Yeah, I mean, the Dora was really funny because you guys would always tell me, sort of, in the background, the truth. And, and the door would tell me this thing, waving his arms around in Italian, and I would speak in English, and he would, then have Kiara say it back to him, but gr would tell me more cell, he understands everything you're saying, you know, he understands perfect English and but you know, I mean, I love that guy like he was sort of a Like he was just a character the Douro doing and I say, was he still alive? Of course, we're going to talk about him, but he He just is like that Macho, Italian guy that everyone would picture you know like nicer than a mafia guy. Not like a mafia guy but just you know tough guy man's man kind of person, you know, and I just I really enjoyed being around and I learned a lot from him and I really, really enjoyed being around him.

5:42 For the time I was Well, it's good to know that you have a good memory and it's good to know that you have. Understood perfectly. How He act because, you know, it's part of the history and thank God personal like him existed back in the days. Well, without people like him, there wouldn't be people like you and people like me, you know we leave your room, we learned from very tough people, you know people who yelled at us and wave their arms around and we're very passionate. And you know, I believe in in that method of learning, I believe in that method.

6:23 I communicate My son. Similarly sometimes still today and I remember when I first got with my girlfriend, she used to say Marcel, you're way too hard on Jeremy with the racing stuff and I would look at her. Like do you realize like how dangerous what he is doing is and and how like the tiniest little bit of a difference in speed or in times takes you from 1st to 12th and he wants to be first. So, These are the things that he has to do. He has to pay attention to the tiniest details and so when he's not paying attention, sometimes you have to wave your arms a little bit. And let him know, right?

7:04 As long as long as he, you know, you watch the reaction of Jeremy because you know, either there are people that get I would say stimulated if that's the right word. But you you the most important thing is that you when you know people and I'm sure, you know, your son, you you have to make sure you you do something if you yell at him you yet because that's what he needs to do better, right. You know. And and I think that this is what we have to learn. Because we are both father of, you know, obviously guys hold is Martina 17. She will turn Point 18 easier. Okay.

7:46 Yeah, Jeremy is one year older than her, so Jeremy. Yeah. April, I do remember that, you know, we had, we had the event very, very that we was in a very similar situation. Yeah. Well I'm worth similar age so it had a similar impact on our lives. I think in talking with you earlier I know that we both transitioned from a very stressful job where we had to be in the office 12, 16 hours a day and stuff like that, where and we were traveling constantly, Stantly and stuff. We both were able to pull back and be able to be a part of our children's lives. It's funny, but we followed a very similar path.

8:28 Yeah, you might like like like we said, yeah, very, very similar. Yeah, it's important. So you know, I know you probably don't even want to go here, but I want to go all the way back to the very beginning where you started in the lighting business and because honestly I don't even know the answer to this so more than anything I'm just personally curious how How you know you because I think you went to like some kind of Technical College or something and then you left there and next thing you know, you're in the lighting business so how did that happen? I was a DJ on three radio stations. It was the moment for, you know, for when Italy started to have radio station and the vision for every radio DJ was too became a TV person, one day, Because you know that was the beginning of the we call them free radio station, you know, not public and and I was studying as an electronic engineer and you know electronic warfare passion. I had quite a success as DJ and in the move the ideal move for me would have been too became these Coatings a you know because that's where you making more money at that time. Yeah.

9:52 In the club's I tried I tried and boy that was a disaster. You know, you haven't seen me dancing but I don't I don't have to read the, you know, I don't feel the rhythm. Yeah. And and at that time there was a little company close to my where I live that, you know, was building lights for Club where I try to, you know, to I try as a radio DJ and good radio DJ, I became a claim a club DJ. So I saw these These Guys in in you know, in the in the lighting and I said you know what, why don't treat my electronic?

10:35 You know, passion into it? And during my summer, I started playing with the lights and stuff like that and was really the very beginning of the Disco time. I'm talking about when, when we was watching movies like Saturday Night Fever. So everything was starting at that time. So there was when was that like late 70s, early 80s? Yes. No, no, 70. So we're talking about I was really a kid because I was the the might beginning on In the company was when I was really, I was study during the day in the morning and and working in the afternoon because that would then became my passion and, and there was only one mechanical thing, one mechanical technician in the company.

11:26 And in, I became the electronic electrical Electronic Engineer. So, it was a technical office, found one who bears and that was that was calmer. That was going on. Yeah. And so was it did or oh, at that time. Who hired you or was it? Someone else? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it was, it was the man. It was the man I met. And he told me, you come here and stop this stupid business that you do with the radio, you know, don't waste your time, we need, we need we need you here. I said man, you know I have to study at University so I went to the university but then When you start traveling me around the world and plus we had to design. The very beginning, we had to design, we was too and we had to design to article 44 for Carla.

12:22 Yeah, that's for the DJ. I mean DJ that was the DJ range. Yeah. And and Karma that was the the professional rate. So to technician the design, three range of products for three different brands. Yeah, that's Yeah. And so the, so all of the Disco stuff was under tasks back, then, I didn't realize that the the, the Disco, the first disco staff was really calling on. Okay, we start to record but then when Karma started to be more, a kind of professional, we open a different different brand called Tas that was making smoke machines and really discussed of chiggers Stuff. Yeah, yeah.

13:10 And so my I was really designing in the night as I remember that. In, in the night, we had the The shift for for the Disco stuff. And during the day we had the sheet. We was designing Karma and Theatrical stuff. So in that was, you know, a lot. There was really a lot of Need for two guys and you know. Yeah, yeah. So I was fine. You know, I want to, I want to move back to products here in a minute. But first, I want to talk because we keep mentioning the Douro and and, of course we're talking about Bruno the door. Oh, who is the was the Well, he wasn't actually the founder.

13:51 It's a crazy story that the foundation of calm are, right? It was I forget that was found in anything. Well, it's cost, efficient electronic, my coochie. So the it was found by a guy called micucci, but you know, I don't know. The old story. What I know is that one day? The Douro took it from Milan to, to cast a gofredo that is the place where coma was, you know, but I mean, we are referring to the original General kornél. Yeah, that was in like one of the main, you know, something right. E will obviously the girl didn't. It was found in the 30 but then you move I move too because they're afraid in the seventh, right? And that was really the moment the moment where these girls started, you know, we I still remember people, taking the taking the lights on, not really finish because they had to add the show that night.

14:46 I mean, it's right now there is a An incredible abundance of four products of the time. People was killing themselves to get some money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you I think kind of entered the business really early obviously, from a manufacturing standpoint in automated lighting. Like, you're, you're literally one of the earliest probably designers of automated lighting which is really interesting and I want to get through a lot of the sort of history of not just automated lights, but Kumar was also, So famous for some of your very large like effects fiction fixtures and you know, the big centerpieces and stuff you and Clay Paki obviously. And and so you know, you got into the business at a time where some of the greatest Visionaries ever. I mean, probably arguably the greatest Visionaries ever in the business were sort of getting started in these small businesses that then became much larger businesses Bruno diderot. Bella View from high-end and I know you've got some stories there.

15:53 I'm sure who else like by ADI, Bucky basically the found the founder of the industry. And then if I'm PR because you know, there was a moment not sell that you because you I heard a lot of your stories and you have the American Vision. Yeah, but you were oh it was. The people don't understand that the communication at the time was different. We to call United States. We spend a fortune. You know, it's not like right now people are talking or they do videos but life is different. Yeah, at that time, we had like a light life here in Italy, or I would say Europe and Carmen, klepacki was a kind of the very beginning of the industry.

16:49 The requirement been much older company found on theaters and follow spots and in these cool effects that we was manufacturing like laid-back, he started later making stuff like golden scan and but we had the same distributor, there was reach a better view in the United States. We so high and system was up. Yeah, that's a crazy scientist itself, right? That Richard Bellevue One of the founders of high-end systems was the original or not? The original, but was the comb, our distributor, the klepacki distributor, both of you? Yeah. They they was buying like an ember of an incredible number of products and Reacher was really asking questions.

17:36 You can we get him started? I think. Yeah, and if I'm Pierre de the founder of Ayrton was our friends distributor for just the government distributor. Yeah. Then we had a moment when we did the Olympic Games and even Bruner why are they? There was the founder, the guy that did the queen Tower in lights you know the Twin Towers in. Yeah Bruno Bruno is a Global Offensive. It was was a good friend of mine really and and we did a lot of things together. So these guys they all basically, I was the young guy, working hard.

18:18 Those guys was the owners of the company. Not only thought even was even was our distributor, right? And we in several occasion, we was we was together. I mean because at the end of the day, we was working together. Yeah. It was really working together and I still remember when Richard gave me, The first mobile phone you know the moment where the mobile phone was like like just the battery was big like like our yeah and it will me are you can cool your house from here. I said by preacher. How can you know I don't know what is that because America was really Advance on and In basically when he presented the Delevingne, in a secret room, that was basically you know a comparative of of the core line clip. A key products because we've invented the mirror, the end of the day and you didn't tell me I was still happy falling falling home from this then that I couldn't care less about in television.

19:24 You know there was not a problem for me. Initially I wouldn't say copy because there was a lot of different things but you you will not hear different stories from our. Yeah. You were his inspiration. You possibly. It's that time we were the only thing is that both click back he and comer lost. Versus antenna being, you know, I mean, because the number of mirrors that the Richard, Richard and the height system, people, serving were pretty big. Yeah. Yeah. The entire beam was was obviously a runaway success. It was wild. But, you know, it's funny you talk about these other manufacturers and how close you are to the, to the founders and to the teams at those companies, but you're physically close to them as well.

20:13 Like I remember, I think the first time I came to visit Kumar I remember like okay over there, there's clay Paki over there, that's sgm over there. This is didn't for an American. Yeah. Back in the day, back in the day, you had like Co F and and lamp. Oh, and all of these other companies, like, literally in walking distance right around your factory. You know, I always thought that that was really interesting, I mean, it's similar to China, you know? It has factories all very close like that in many ways, but, you know, it's not like that in America.

20:54 Obviously, like we have one manufacturer in Austin, Texas. We have one manufacturer in Madison. Wisconsin, we have one manufacturer like it just is a much more spread out business here. I guess it really you. You are absolutely right. It reminds me China. You know, if you look at our industry or It's really an industry that moves by Fades. You know, there are phases. Although industry there was the Italian moment in right now is the China moment and the thing that is happening in China is the people that works for a company that go and work for another company. So they move from one company to another and but over here, we had the sort of agreement, you know?

21:40 Very it was very careful not to lose. Technicians for one or the other company we try we try do it was very awesome. Honor involved. Yeah. There was a lot of honor and you know all the pattern I had you know we when we had a problem with any of these guys, the first thing that you do you call them and say okay you know that we pay them that so you don't you don't start with me. Yeah, you call you call the person. You don't call the attorney, the law office. You call the person and you About it. Hey, you stepped on my toes here, you want to pull back on that a little bit. But the other thing is like, so not only were the factories all similarly positioned, which reminds me of China, but the suppliers like everybody, you know, Komar would come out with a new product, that was cutting-edge, very different, very unique, very fresh, and then a bunch of other companies would have a very similar-looking feature set with the same prisms or the same something like, you know, parts.

22:45 It's seemed to be interchangeable at times between different manufacturers. Well, we'll try not, not to be. There was a sort of cooperation, but I don't see any any technology interchange, you know, and we all try to have different vendors but I'm what you have to remember. And for that time because now I'm hearing a lot about these Manufacturing in China and stuff like that, but remember, that in those days there was only two lamp manufacturer So we're talking about companies that goes to the same brand or the same company in China. And in Boise, there is moving heads manufactured by the same Factory.

23:35 Boy, can you imagine it means at that time there was only to let manufacturer boy, so you either use a larger more use Phillips? Yeah. So, what's the deal? So if at the end of the day, you have the same engine, you have to do. A lot. Too personal to customize wine that was, you know, that was one of the things I always thought was so cool about Bruno did or oh was that you know that crazy Optical bench that he had where he would just interchange different reflectors and different lenses. And he just had a vision of how to get the most out of a lamp. I think at the time, you know, and yeah but we did the there was like a I think was a good team. Yeah, good team.

24:24 That can they can handle any kind of request, you know, and it was really the original, this industry. Yeah. Yeah. But I so that's what I feel. I know you're like me a little bit where, you know, like you talked about Packy and, and Bellevue and did or o and BR D and all these, you know, I don't know. Did you ever work with Peter? Johansen. Probably not, right? No. They Martin was always seen as the competitive to the comes from the bottom. Yeah they were involved in you to your Ferrari or Lamborghini. I mean it was the it was the the company they started with low price saying stuff like that. Where?

25:10 Yeah yeah. So you by the way Joseph you know that you know the Joseph from from Ruben was our our Manufacturing for. Yeah, I do. Yeah, your your task fixtures, which then became the copper wire Pro Series. This is just to tell you how close all of these companies are and and, and, you know, and junga in China. So we know each other pretty well. Oh, yeah, yeah. But do you think that It's one of the things that the industry is kind of missing a little bit today, is that sort of visionary, passionate founder, you know, especially now that you know, there's, there's more private equity and investors and bankers involved and and less passionate Founders.

26:06 I guess. Like do you miss that? I miss that. I am not missing. The founder of I'm missing. The creativity. I mean, I, it's the the That period of time. Just for your knowledge. We when my first my first show because I tried to press the button of the of a controller. You know, I love ya. I love pressing the button anymore people and I was very happy but 16:16 mirror lights was, you know, a big show right now.

26:47 You have thousands humor so the in that sense, a lot of things have changed. Yeah, but when you are talking, when you Talking about that period of time. We was who was having a lot of fun. I know just to mention the ATC founder. We our industry is found on fun and it was fine right now. I see that it's about members you know I mean and the thing is that the thing is nobody want to do if you are making a life that is a little bit smaller or bigger or more powerful.

27:30 You know that you would sell it because there is a market for it, right? We was making things that probably had no Market, you know? Because you had no idea, you know, what's the, how many, how many part LED? That is one of the product that I have vented. Yeah. Would would you sell the market was Zero? There was none in the market, you know, you invent something? What's the what's the market? It's all about. About. It's a genuine product. It's something that you create because you feel, well, actually, our distributor, the time said to me, I, you know, we need we may need a trust owner that sits on and then we translate it into a product but nobody was asking me.

28:20 Okay, if we do that, I'm any, we will sell in the year. How many? What would, what would be the profit margin? Okay, there's no Market may see you. What I like about. What I do right now is that I listen to the people that allowed me to do the same thing that we was doing after time having a vision, we have the vision and we create something new. Yeah, we I do a lot of new things now Like I was doing at the time, and I love that, but I'm really missing when I walk through the exhibition's is that I see fantastic piece of art. I mean, there are few companies that if you want, we can mention the really build very solid robust, long-lasting products. Yeah, they are bigger smaller brighter. It's all about it.

29:18 Nothing that really grabs my attention. Should honestly? No, but I'll give you an example. Like so, I was able to visit the Ayrton headquarters in Paris and, you know, even back when we were working together, I wasn't the most technical person. So, I couldn't tell you how a product was built. I couldn't even tell you how it worked, but I could look at it and kind of understand where the problems were and stuff like that. I looked inside some of the fixtures that the Ayrton headquarters, I can't believe how well, Oh, things are built today. Like how well designed they are on the inside of the product and I agree any things they pack into the investigation.

30:00 I agree. 100% sure, but we think about the audience. Think about the audience. Yeah. That I always think about the customer. The customer for me, is the audience the onliest look. Smaller Sharpie or a well-packed are tiny. Yeah. Okay. It's it's like a ca-7. I mean, the end of the day it's a boom. It's a beam that moves and we had me and you, we had the chance to add the zoom into a fixture before, there was no Zoom fiction. Yeah, and when you, when you zoom wide, we want an award for zooming y-yeah That was revolutionary and right now, you know, they they still Zoom wider.

30:51 I mean it's more, it's more accurate is better. But I if if I move myself into the audience I don't know that the light is lighter more compact or I see a like the moon's the and the global that rotates. No, I understand and I love real Innovation, you know that I participate to I think 14 or something like that, Awards, of technical Innovation. And they all come from from me, listening to the customer. Basically, because that was the main thing. No, I mean, you're honestly without blowing too much. Smoke up your skirt there, mr.

31:33 Fausto, you, you are probably from a engineering or you know product development standpoint you listen better than anyone ever My career like I remember thin Callister up at Martin when we would tell him we want a fixture that's about this big and it needs to do these five things really well we would end up with a fixture that was about you know, 20 feet long and didn't do any of the things we asked for it was pretty or whatever. You know like maybe it did some other cool stuff but it wasn't what we asked for and you know, hence, you know, we asked for a cyber light and we got the pal, you know. No.

32:14 So very, very different product from a cyber light. The pal was successful in its own, right. I mean, it was a nightmare of a light, but, but it was, it was quite Successful by Martin's terms, but you always listen to, and, and I mean, you always got very close to the bullseye. Like, if we were asking you for this, you gave us this and it was exactly what we asked for and usually had some surprises that were a little better than what we asked for. But now I loved that process. When I was working on, I love listening. I I think that one of the key point of all my career, that I'm very proud of, by the way, it was listening to Distributors like in designer customers.

33:08 Division division of those guys that I just mentioned. It's very important because they give me that are more technical the possibility of using my technical skills and transform their need into a product. Right? I love. I love to listen to problems or it's I don't know. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Is it exactly right? No, you're a Solutions guy. But here's the thing. Meet me at least inning to listen to a problem. Or, you know, that show is boring for me. It's equal. Okay, what can I do to make it less boring? Yeah. And there are people that the things about smaller, bigger more gobos boy. I cannot see the governing.

33:54 That's another. Yeah, yeah. Now but here's the problem and so I'll play Devil's Advocate a little bit and I don't know if that translates in Italian at all but the problem is and I was there during the Did Oro years when you're very passionate and you listen to everything that the customers say and you don't have a commercial value that you place on a product. In other words, if we build this, I will sell this many, you know, to me, you have to connect those dots because otherwise, what ends up happening is, what was happening with Komar at the time, which was you'd either have 17 versions of the same. Duct or you'd have like member that light that he made for lighting buildings on the sea.

34:42 And I think you sold 12 of them and, you know, those those sit on your books as big bling you like, you are money. You are, you are absolutely right in this one. I, you know, I'm very happy to that because you're referring to The period of time that we was working together, you know be before basically the Venture Capital Community Advocate me. Yeah that was the real, you know, origin of the industry. But then I spend 10 years with people that really work, only on money. They have it. And the combination, the combination of the two is what made me the person I am today. So I care about the vision, but I always Want to have every turn.

35:35 So there is a Visionary part and none of the to, I think they are the best way to approach our industry. Yeah. But the combination of the two is important. Perfect. Yeah. Because if you, if you create the most beautiful product ever created but nobody buys it what have you done, you know, you mean I mention I mentioned the pilate LED or I can mention to you, the let go there was to my, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Action of products. Yeah. We sold thousands. Yeah. And and the reason the industry working by the way I know. But that's it almost incredible because when you're talking about LED I'm one of the person that really has in my garden. Protested are there since 20 years always on? Yeah, so if you say, if you're telling me how long the LED lost, yeah, I will tell you exactly. Men was the result is and is not a curve, in a book and so, I learn.

36:36 You're right, it means if you're talking about the year 2000, it's one story. But then, I had another experience and I, you know, you're right when what you said is totally right, what you said. It is okay, you cannot do super psyche. When when you, when you came in the company saying, you know, but this is not bright enough. Okay. And I said, what, we just put two Labs, you know, and we got along the line. There was really funny but that was a I think it's a great day I think is mmm that was a killer and amazing. We do so but that you know we didn't thought about how many we can tell that was really very creative, so yeah.

37:18 I learned not to be the technical office of virtual world you know, and and that's what I do right now. You know and I do it right now and we did it for about 10 minutes. It's such a fine balance though, it really is and so I actually want to get into product more in depth because again you I think unlike most product designers or Engineers or you know people who saw the creation of these things or made the creation of these things happen. You know you you truly were there at the The beginning of the industry for moving lights. And so let me first ask you in your opinion because I know there's a lot of controversy around this who made the first moving light, Very nice.

38:01 Not moving head. Moving light. Moving. Like if you're talking about the first movie night and you include into the moving light, the mirrors. Yes. Robot was the first one. Come on robot. Yeah. So are you familiar with the one though? Because isn't there one that was in like Michigan. I forget the name of it. It was called the Cyclops or something. I forget it had a funny name but there was one that was made in Michigan. That was ridiculous. It had no, there is liability. The reason the reason possibility that somebody At that time, America was, we couldn't see United States. So if in a United States or somebody in China with, you know, in that it was making a mirror light. But as far as, you know, a commercially viable, sellable product, the cam, our robot was the first one. And so I've no doubt about it.

39:07 If you're talking about a moving mirror because when you say well moving moving, light to me is really Now is eager within beam of light that? Yeah. So when that happened, how did that happen? Like how did the idea happened? Why did the idea how it was? It was very dense, very easy, you know, the we had We had the club closed through the town that wanted something special because they had like an open and, and they want, you know, there was Gobo colors was not enough for them because we was already manufacturing stuff. That was like, changing color, changing homework. Yeah.

39:53 And we said, okay, let's see what else can we do? So we said, okay, we put a mirror in front of the light and we said, okay, we Would be for you the club with Coca-Cola saying so and would be 20 pieces of that light for their cup. It was not a coincidence. So there was a guy knocking the door saying I want something different. Can you build for me something different? But how did you, how did you come up with the idea of, we're going to make a mirror that's going to reflect the beam and it, we're going to have control over how the mirror is moving and reflecting. But yeah, I mean, we already had we operate just We had gobos that was moving with models.

40:35 We had color that was moving with mortars. The lamp. So the next physical things that you can change is is moving moving, moving moving the mean and you know, with this guy, knocking the door we said, okay, let's move it. You know, it's the next it's a logical step is not, nothing is not, it is not something, you know, I can tell you a story that, you know, we broke a mirror in the bathroom and it happened. That every fact. No but that's not true. We physically went into, okay. Lights can move.

41:16 So we want to animate, we want to animate a club. How can you animate the club? If you, you can light, you can change color, you can change images and then you move. There is no other physical. There's no other physical things that you can do like yeah. I mean you make it sound. So obvious but when you look backwards at it, when all of the time from the beginning of time, until that moment nobody had ever was automated the movement of a beam of light like that controllably and yet you guys did it. So to me like, that's an incredible.

41:57 Its independence is controller. The first controller was controlling for lights. Yeah. How many channels each light? Well, it was not the neck, so when we was not talking about channels, there was no DMX game after, okay? It was probably very cold, okay? And and you could, you could program those for, I still remember the bathrooms that I was pressing to control that and I was really a kid. So really, really young boy. It was a robot controller, right? It's like yeah, they're little control. Yeah, I remember it because there was a club in Canada.

42:38 I was in in Calgary at the time and there was a club I think in Edmonton that put in Colmar robots and I remember just seeing them and going, what the hell is that? That is you, you, you you, you see that it's the game. What I'm telling you is that you have a guy owner of Club, knock on the door and asking you something new and I listen to them. Yeah, means they did. That's the constant of my life. Is that the Is perfect. We did ever is problem solving the guy had a problem. If you look back, you know, on the few stories we are, you know, and I know we're running out of time but you know I mean is the constant, you know, there is a customer that has a need and I listened to the need and translated into a product, you know, that's the process that I love, you know, that's what I always did. You know that even the reason of the Change of my life is being because I was listening to the president of Marta, he was standing, it was telling me eight hours to. But with all your experience, what you want to do because I can you can you can do anything in my company. But do you now like sort of smile or pat yourself on the back when you think about the fact that I created the first moving light or the first, you know, automated beam of light or whatever you want to call it, like dude, I know I absolutely feel.

44:08 I learn that be the first doesn't doesn't count. Yeah because you know be the first me the pot light LED be the first with the let go with the First with the with the robot, the First with well name. Some and yeah, be the first Biddeford with the zoom you was with me with the zoom. We did the first Zoom lights and the one that really sold the lot was with the - hey, so it's what I'm really proud of is that this is all part of the experience. Audience? And I learn that patenting. Something in Italy doesn't pay back be the first doesn't pay back. You have to have and that's what I'm that's what I do. Now you have everything. Yeah you can be the first but you have to have the market ready for it.

44:54 You have to make good amount of money, not too much, because you have to watch exactly what the production, of course. Yeah. And and I love to share, I love to share, you know, I love to share everything I learned. So, if we go back to that column, our robot was it. Liable. No. And was that because of heat and stuff like, because it was just constantly bouncing, absolutely not, is because we design it for we design for the club, so it was designed with the effects. It anytime, right? No, it is made with this, we designer with the technology that was available in the cost was right. So we was using several markers, right? So when clay package saw the idea and made the Golden scam. They made it with a more reliable technology but it was it wasn't.

45:46 We knew that, you know, the servomotor is very easy to change. I mean you and we as we expected, designed light for a club, not for not for the not for the people world, when the world was started to sell in TV studios, we went and use a different technology so we knew what we was doing and to keep the price down. Dick time. We just to give you an idea, you know, one stepper motor back in the days was costing more than a hundred dollar. You cannot use the stepper motor with for stepper motor. It cost you like a moving head today. So and you know, and the value of 100 dollar, you know, is not the value you ever.

46:28 Yeah. So we use the technology there was no it is the fact is that people are talking but they don't know exactly the Genesis we did something. We knew what we were doing but then When the product became bigger than we expected. Yeah, I mean, it's no other than other than the robots one of the other things I saw around that time and I think you were selling them through high end or what were they called it? The time black stone or LightWave reason. I still no visual. Yeah. So was all those re fixtures the sort of flat like multi Ray, I think it was called, maybe there are a little more T raised on. Different that they're the best one was called versatile. Right.

47:13 That actually even a are the revamp with with LEDs lately. Yeah. Right. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Those were beautiful. And, and, you know, and then I mean, like I just saw Komar as being sort of like the Lamborghini like, especially when I got into lighting, installations was probably the late 80s. And at that time you know Martin really wasn't out yet with a moving light and so you had clay Paki you had kalmar and reliability will especially by the time the light got to Canada. Reliability was always a bit questionable with some of that stuff.

47:59 It reminded me of maybe a Lamborghini or a Ferrari where they're beautiful. They're amazing to drive, it's an unbelievable experience, but it did. So if you that time you know back in the days we when we hand like a depend depends really on the on the availability of Technology. The world's technologies that was not really but forget the Heat or stuff like that. So the real problem was that the availability of Correct price. Technology was a kind of not really super reliable. Yes, but that was designed for clubs.

48:42 Yeah, so it's a kind of with instruction manual. You could easily repair like a set of a marker or in it was cheaper to repair. It means you cannot sell a light with for stepper motor if the cost is that high because you will Ever by? Yeah you don't you don't want to build something that it's impossible to purchase one. That was obviously the opportunity that Peter Johansson's saw and stepped into when he created the robo scan, because it was robot and golden scan, Robo, scan, and, and that was where the name came from. He was obviously, you know, looking at how you guys did things and figure out a way to really cheap it down. And, you know, those original Robo, scans weren't the most. Label products either, but they were a lot less money and you know what he found is really, really jumped into an opportunity that was left.

49:42 Yeah. By the the manufacture of their Top Line and ET de right. I have a lot of, I have a lot of respect for for, for the marketing guy. Yeah, I mean, you know, while you guys and and klepacki were focused on selling, hundreds of golden scans or robots, he Was selling thousands of cheap little Robo scans to everyone, right to small. Hey, DJ, is that it's something that if you look at the history of our industry it always happen. Yeah. The problem always come from from the bottom, you know, and because now marked well not now. But, you know, later Martin Martin was was high and the problem came from relationship.

50:28 A and those are the guys, it was come from the bottom and in our Well then became probably or I mean and month in problem. Arrived from Rome be. So it's a wave and I'm sure the right now, there are other people that want to jump in. And, you know, that's why I, you know, I don't know if you want to go there now. Yeah, we absolutely want to. But first first I want to go into. So you had, you know, moving lights and disco lights and and the Rays and all of those things. But you also, like you said earlier, at the same time, you had a theater line that you were putting together Other. And so, was that? Because the Douro loved theater or because you guys saw an opportunity, what inspired you guys to do a line of theater stuff, somebody else locking the door asking for it, you have to like yeah.

51:18 So we had people praying us to manufacture something for for in and actually you know the history of climate is very close to the pier. So the the first, well, I'm sure. Sure, that, you know, that the little deleted source for the meaning source for, right? It's the we our meaning to us for is From the 80s 70. So I still have a couple of my house and there are very, very small like Compact and in that is always been in the corner product, you know? We we started as a theatrical company. Yeah.

52:01 So you could see here in Italy, the old historical theaters, they all have some historical core product and the still up and running. I mean when when you're talking the disco disco club came because of the ennead, the market needs and what theater was really the original of the company. Yeah. So theaters followed spots and those one was, you can still see, you know, here there is a theater next to me, they still have, followed spot that they still are repairing and it's probably 50 years old. Yeah, yeah.

52:43 And and if this is absolutely there, these are the two. When you're talking about robot, you're talking about something that is unreliable. When you're talking about that you have to go when you do is stuff that lasts forever. Yeah and and now there is the all-in-one with zoom, everything included profile that that is always being the European Standard and for folding one. He's always been. It's actually the source for that change the standard into the barrel. Yeah. And there'll be less it, but they start the standards. Always been holding one and now it's getting bad like your colon which is incredible. That this is that's that's the started this year who you know? It's I'm sure that the mobile phone now they're getting bigger but there would be a day that they comes. Morgue and Mason.

53:38 Yeah, it's I don't like the the flat, you know, the flat area that we are living right now in the show business. But other than that, well, I would like to move that you speak about flat. It's funny because I was just having this conversation with someone about the field of light, you know, like in a moving light and you remember, as well as I do. We used to have to do these shootouts with other products and like these Disney LDS or television, or theater Aldi's, would say. Say okay, show me, show me how flat the field is in, you know, whatever color temperature or whatever, and they would measure, you know, Center to Edge and all of these different things. And it was so important that the Senator Senator edge to edge was so very close, right?

54:27 Like they wanted the flattest field and Clay Packy always one and it drove me crazy because I was like why is this so important? Why is this so important? And so now I'm sure you know where I'm With this now with LED fixtures, lighting designers are complaining that there's no hot spot. It is, you know, Marcel, I'm not a lighting designer and I admired the lighting designer, I listened to them. And I know that there are two schools. There is, there is the school of people that wants the hot spot and be. And and there is a school or people that want to have the infield. And and you know that there are manufacturer of moving as that do even the LED work that the ND filter of. Yeah, yeah.

55:15 They're adding a filter generator hotspot but this is Is this is again, we're back into the region, listening to, listen to those guys. Is what I love and it's not the one on his right? And the other one is wrong, but that can is, it means you probably have an app, they can drive you into bankruptcy as well, so they can drive vehicles. Me. Yes, by listening to them, not me, but not me. We think we do my experience, they drive me. They can drive you to bankruptcy too, because if you're constantly listening, they're always going to want the one thing you don't have. And then again, if we have That is where discussion if I add that one thing. How many will you buy? Oh, I'm not going to buy any but I'll spec it on my shows and you know so sometimes that works out sometimes it doesn't it's a very I admire I admire I admire that I can do stuff because means they do what I'm not it.

56:07 They do what I'm not able to do. So there is always been the is like is like in the the Racing Car you, I'm sure you love somebody. He knows how to drive the car and somebody knows how to build a car of course. Yeah, I love to build the car, but I took, I cannot drive it fast, you know? And and I admire people that press the button and make a good show. And so, I listened to them and just for your knowledge, when we saw the The spot, the center spot of of the of the ATC source for the region. The original one. Yeah. he said, boy that That's very, you know, that's very not even and because we were manufacturing profile, that was absolutely even. And we was challenged by the lighting designer, the theater, like anxiety, make the feel even. And I honestly, I think that source for was a successful problem.

57:11 What do you think? Yeah okay. Okay so the reality the reality is that Even field is successful. If that's what you're looking for, and hotspot is successful. Is this what you're looking for, right? Yeah, I mean, you have to find a way to accomplish both because like you said there's two schools and and if you just don't listen to one of them you're going to lose that business and it's not worth it 100%. So you know, I want to quickly go through like some of the products that you were a part of, you know, we've mentioned the robot. The very first automated moving light of Of any kind which is, you know, completely incredible. Like if I were you I would retire right now and have that on my headstone of my grave.

57:58 Was this man invented the first moving your light? But first of all these little is don't me. But it's a team will be very small team of people that I don't want to take credit, they thought of anything that but I want to go through some of your accomplishments here that I can recall anyways from a list and so One that I'm not sure younger people who will be listening to, this will say what the heck is that? So there was a product called the net and the NAT had this incredible looking Periscope head and it literally was a periscope and I want to hear why and how that was developed but it was it was incredible as far as the things that it could do differently than a moving mirror and differently than a moving head.

58:47 Like just some of the movements were just So unique with that product, and it was such a cool product and you know, unfortunately, you know it didn't last that long, I guess from a standpoint of Commercial Success, you sold a whole bunch of them for some big tours and stuff. I think Wiseman was was working with you at the time and helped get the idea to Market in a pretty bad. I love your wife, if one day, you will see him. Tell him that. I love it. I'll tell me. I'll tell him to listen to this. I love wise, man, and he took me to the United States with the net. Yeah.

59:28 And it took me 2, is, is Lake and on a limo is a, is school, is a great guy. He is a great guy. Now, he's, I talked to most every day. I love John, and, and he's one of my favorite people, but, you know, the cool thing about John, or one of the cool things about John, is he can get anyone on the phone. He He doesn't care. He's like a pit bull. He'll go you point them in a direction and he'll go through the wall to get to that person or whatever. Right? And so when you get them a new product that's Innovative and creative and wild like the NAT was you know you're going to get some success but so why did that product happen? What problem are you solving?

1:00:15 Well, the thing is that we had in mind that range of products. First of all, the any tea was a range of product was a static profile. We call flags and stuff like that. So it was the idea was to have a more modular system. So color coral mixing was the same on every product. Lamp was the same on every product, the mirror, you know, old modular. So you use the module and you're building a profile, While you another module. I mean I'm not talking about modularity between different products. I'm talking about, man, the only manufacturing standpoint and on a rental company standpoint. You buy a range of product that all use similar component, right?

1:00:57 So we had so lamp cover mixing dimmer module called mixing Global and then you can either have a static product. That was cool. Not PC or not. Mmm, mirror movement. So, you had a mirror infirm or you had the Periscope? Yeah, the Periscope was the was the Dual system was really Innovative and he was actually successful, you know, the because we started actually, we took some some, some jobs on Olympic Games because one of the any tea was for K. So we the the smallness was a 1K tungsten to a 4K. Start.

1:01:39 So I'm talking about probably the brightest light you ever saw in your life that will never be anything like that. The reason for the Periscope was we try to generate a new movement, you know we will do with the fact that very light was patenting. The moving head and teal high-end system, don't show the world that everybody could and Martin Show the world that we could manufacture and moving. And moving head, we was finding a way around the moving mirror to move the Beam without moving the mirror. So we decided to go for the Periscope and we achieve 360° movement, without moving any element. We just by moving, just moving somewhere else.

1:02:22 And here's so it's a way around the very light patent. If I have to tell you what, the real reason was, is work around a very light batter, but it's incredible like it. When I see Innovation like that, that's the stuff that makes me wonder what was going on in that room at the time. Like, was everybody smoking some kind of funny Italian we door or drinking things. We know we had we had to find a way. It's so like when you invent things, everything is crazy. Especially for leader companies and for, you know, with the responsibility we had to design stuff. There was a market need, you know, everybody there shows that was looking at, you know, moving mirrors, beams the moves with the mirrors and we have like our mirror. Yeah.

1:03:16 Static. And then there was like these Trend with very light, and we eat that happened. Way before Martin. And I system started with a removable with they're moving lights. So the end we knew a guy that had a sort of an idea. And in we work, we work together with these guy that actually it's a British guy at very smart one and we said, okay let's let's try to develop that and we manufacture moldings and stuff like that. So basically, we Vest in an idea that was, you know I tend to us. It was good.

1:04:01 Tell you B to win. Tony will tell ya. Tony to tell you right? I forgot about that. Didn't I think design He was he was actually the one that, you know, it's very difficult because the calculation of the motors, the positioning with the two Motors, one more term need to know where the other is. So it's very sophisticated grandma and it is incredible. So what's the idea generally that the body would go up would be like vertical? And then the head would be below it so that it could sort of mimic the movement of a moving head. Was that the general idea do you? You you you don't want to move you don't dare deal.

1:04:43 Was not really to mimic the movement at what we, because the, the beauty of that movement is that the movement was different, right? So, you and that was also the problem of the system because at that time, microprocessor was not as powerful as right now. So, you have right now, I guarantee made that, you know, can can do anything basically Yeah, because the power of the calculation is very high. Yeah. So when, when we was at that time you had either more by dimensional mirror or three-dimensional movement with the moving with the moving heads. But that was, you know, you need a very complicated, right? Calculation right to to go for three-dimensional. Yeah.

1:05:38 And in this was, there was different again. So that was really different for a lighting designer. You never know if If the beam comes from One Direction or the other direction. Yeah, no. It's again, it's one of those Innovations where you look at it and go. Well, that's different, you know, and I mean it seems like Komar did so many of those, you know, you guys were a very, very Innovative company. Like I think Komar was the innovator and Clay Packy was sort of the Perfecter, you know, like clay package was able to take somebody's ideas. Make them prettier whereas probably over here over here we always had the same kind of philosophy. We was the rock and roll company and there was the TV company. Yeah, we was theater, theater and rock and roll. There was more the the theater and but we without big competition.

1:06:36 Yeah, there is a lot of love because in the company's yeah. So yeah yeah your Lamborghini and therefore re maybe yeah it's a kind of weird. It's a very, it's a very similar story. It's really it's really similar. Is that? So, moving down, the list here is see F12 and CF7 with CF standing for carbon fiber, of course. And so why carbon fiber when it's so expensive? Its first of all because we had to need, you know I don't know if you if you heard the Millennium though if you know what the Millennium of course or now it's going by the way, I know this story, I know this story but it's for the purpose of our audience.

1:07:20 So I want to make sure that other people hear what I already know and it ought to Arena they had they had no possibility of lifting the Obviously the fixture because of the weight, so they need a product that maximum was 20 kilos. So we had, we had, we had a goal. The goal was 20 kilos, so and we had to build something very bright. That weights, 20 kilos. And and the only material that is really light and robust and chemical resistance is, is a carbon fiber.

1:08:06 So we went to a company. It was actually manufacturing skins for Lamborghini and Ferrari, and we had, we had them made skins for our kind of a fixer and the cfp Was waiting. 20 kilos. So it's again there was a need of somebody and we found we found the solution. Was I love that I, you know, was it the washer? The hard Edge that came first wash. Yeah, I thought wash that was a that wash was fantastic product.

1:08:48 Like at the time that was a shocking product. It was just beautiful. There was nothing like it. Beautiful to look at this beautiful performance to this still is still working. Yeah, I mean the the good thing is that the I still, you know, there are people that ask me for four parts and and there's still 20 kilos. Yeah, it's still very bright and it's still 20 kilos. Yeah. It's that was a beautiful product and you know the seventh the CF 12 for me anyway. It's the hard Edge, wasn't quite as beautiful and it probably, you know, wasn't as commercially viable either.

1:09:34 And so right around the time we were starting, you guys were starting to look at doing sort of a scaled-down version of that, but with zoom in, with all these other things and, and that was where the CF7 came from, which also won another series of awards, Yeah, yeah that gives you beautiful fixture, did we have some problems? You know that like you know one of the things I learned going through the CF7, I learned it before with Martin and and in other situations, but I especially learned it with the CF7 is for every action, you know, there's there's some sort of a compromise or a reaction or whatever, right? So if we choose to do this, here's what it's going to cost us over here and whether that's in Will cost or you know, something else some other performance is less because we decided to focus on this one instead and so we ran into a few of those things on the see f7s.

1:10:33 But, you know, CF7 was doomed by other people being fast to Market. I guess we didn't have enough time to sell the number of see f7s that we felt. We really could have sold in an open market because Cuz the Mac 2000 came and just you know they had so much of a machine behind that product a marketing and selling machine and they just sold tens of thousands of them in no time. Yeah. In and we did thought we were as a technical office for for, for those guys that, you know, they took any possible Advantage for. Yeah, from a design.

1:11:13 You know, that's why I will never do the same mistake again. Yeah. Of be the first, you know, you telling you that will be the first without everything that You need to have around as a make, any sense actually gets its what is really blocking the industry right now or in my vision is that nobody want to be the first again. Yeah. Well over here in America there's there's always a saying that you know, you don't want to be a Pioneer, they're the ones with all the arrows in their back, you know, and it's true. I mean, you know, I've been first to Market in a lot of different areas.

1:11:55 Ria's that CF7 was one of them. You know my LED company over here was one of them. We were very very early and what we were doing, but we were too early and it was very expensive, it was very complicated. Getting customers is really hard because you have to do too much storytelling and too much selling just to win a job. You're better off letting somebody else take all the pain and spend all the money and create the market and then go and steal it from them. Yeah, that's that's really the, the portion of Life. First lighting life that we been talking so far, and If you look at the innovation of the second part of my life, that didn't happen again because you know, the number of pilot LED.

1:12:44 We saw the lad could that is been sold. They the number was really up and with the the third portion of my life, things are even better because you know as long as you learn or at least that's my philosophy every time that I do something, I should learn something. Yeah. And and I think that what I'm doing right now is really the combination. Ian of all these things, you know, that sometimes me and you we talked about life and as long as you don't don't make the same mistake. But I also have to tell you that it's a lot of fun. You know, the moment that you need this type of mistakes and this type of innovation you know I when you see your things and it's not you don't do anything for money. Sometimes you just do you love which at least that's the way I am.

1:13:39 Yeah I love what I do and when you see something and you see people happy about the creativity or I'll Of that moment. But I love money though because we did the same thing again with LED Co, you know, we decided hey let's go Take On The World and tell the whole world that you don't need to buy Source fours anymore. You need to buy the LED version of it, which was a beautiful product. I mean, it was so beautifully designed everything, looked beautiful. And by the way, you could use your same source for tubes that you already had, you know, I thought that that was just he's one of the nicest products. You made like just a beautiful, beautiful product very well named great brand.

1:14:24 And it was such a hard battle because we were solving a problem that the world didn't know they had yet, you know, the world didn't really decide. I need an LED leko, we decided that and so we were trying to force them into our decision. And the thing, my cell is that at the moment The well, we touch base on that a couple of times in this conversation. There was to land manufacturer. So if I add new Shield, that was three then. We enter into the world of LEDs and there are hundreds of manufacture of LEDs with a lot of different Technologies and a lot of different options.

1:15:13 And when I see, when we came up with the idea of the lift cord, I couldn't resist to wait for somebody else because I saw an engine and when I, when I saw the engine the LED engine, you know, I start thinking about slim small, lightweight long lasting, you know, And so I had to do something, you know, you cannot wait till somebody else does it before you because they, you know, it's my passion, it's my question, it's against your character. It's against everything that you believe, right. When I when I left my previous job you know a Karma that we mentioned so far and you know, right now it's a couple different company owned by different people. Yes, it's our our column and let's say that's not a saying. One coin.

1:16:10 Yeah, so the think the thing is that when I left and I saw that nobody is doing is using the new engine. These this incredible number of engines to create something totally different and I see I see LED moving heads right now that weight 50 kilos. Yeah, I mean I I feel that we lose the The purpose of of we don't have a lamp now, okay? We don't have a lamp that was hot and big and so we had to make a big women are now why why there's no men are so big, you know, and I And have you seen any flat light?

1:17:00 I mean their million things that can be done and that, you know, I I love to, I love to see this Innovation. We do all all the things that are happening right now. There are millions of things that can be done. Yeah, and I don't see that happening, but boy, I thought your agenda. But no, no, it's good. I love all this stuff, but it's funny because again, there's two different sort of Worlds. You know, there's the world that wants things, bigger and brighter all the time, right? Like more lumens, more lumens, and then I talked to a lot of let's call them classic designers, who say, Lights are getting too bright. You know, it's getting to a point where you're creating audience, fatigue with these lights because they're just constantly looking at these big bright in your face, lights all the time.

1:17:49 And if you're not doing a stadium show, you don't need 50 thousand lumens in a moving light and and then, you know, again, the other side says, no, no, keep making them brighter, I can always dim them, you know, and so I don't know, like it wasn't. The purpose of having a digital source that Waits at the end of the day. When I move that light weight 50 kilos. Yeah, I mean, the purpose of the last government Parliament, Fausto a perfect moving light, that's twenty thousand lumens. How much should it way? It's something, it's something that I can lift. So it's a one person physically.

1:18:30 It's something that I can lift. It means I do it all day. I don't know. Maybe 15 kilos. Okay. I mean, I think, I think that anything that Waits The needs to be a good person to need to be lifted. Yeah, it's a waitron, the other problem that companies are having and, and I've seen it with Martin, I've seen it with Ayrton, I've seen it all of the companies is that all of this Fancy new trust from these Tyler GT trust guys or whatever the lights, don't fit in the truss now because they're getting too damn big and so they can't turn in the trust. So now they have to put in limits in the software so that they don't bump into the trust's when they're moving and stuff. You know, to me again, like, you really have to think. Do I need every single feature in every single light? Like, it's like every light now has frame. And shutters and zoom, and this, and that, and all of these different things.

1:19:32 Because if I don't, listen, you're going to lose the job to the other company, right? So very similar, you know, back in the, in the, in the funny day or the the days where we came up with the pilot that lady or the let go, you know, that they weren't, you know, you should see the people, you know, on cruise lines when they saw the light was not hot or, you know, they could see the first line that was not hog and was light and was mold. I mean, that's the real Innovation. I'm proud of, you know, when when we could we could fit We could treat the customer need. I mean, they sometimes you should be surprised people.

1:20:14 You know, we really Innovation, you surprise people. Yeah. And sometimes you just listen to them or and then you add your, you had your touch. And and in my today's world, I give all this to everybody, you know? I mean, anybody that comes to me with a problem. I try to. So I want to get your view on something patents and and the whole image. Electoral property idea and stuff. So, you know, one thing I'll always remember is you and I had a conversation, got it had to be 15 years ago about the color kinetics patents which then became the Phillips patents for LED.

1:20:54 And I remember you saying to me because you know, I was telling you that companies here in the United States. European companies are afraid to do business here because they're afraid to be super-weird Bicolor kinetics. So, you know, a lot of really cool LED products were being developed in Europe, but nobody wanted to sell them in the United States because they were afraid of color kinetics. And so, I actually did something really creative at the time, I went to color kinetics and I got a licensing agreement from them and I can't remember the exact number, let's call it five percent. So what I did is I voluntarily paid them five percent on any LED product that we sold And any of the products that were within my brand, we're covered under under their patents. So we were, we were licensed under their patents. So any European company could come to me. And as long as we covered their five percent, they were covered to sell in the United States.

1:21:54 So that was a pretty, pretty Innovative approach to get around it because some of their licensing fees were ridiculous like 15% or something. But, so I remember talking to you about that and you said Marcel, this is so stupid. Because I think it's pwm, right? And and you said, pwm is something that I learned in textbooks in the 1970s and these people have patents for it. Now, this is insane. So what what are your thoughts on think it's like are they necessary are? Do they actually protect? You are they still worth it today? In this fast-moving the remember that we leaving. I live in Italy. So life in Italy about patent is not Oh easy because I could have patent a lot of things and I stopped actually patented because you the most important thing that I learned from these core kinetics fight is that you have to fight. You have to, you can patent anything and you. You are right.

1:22:53 But if you don't have ten lawyers, you first of all, you have to pay for the palate, second, you have to pay for the Defenders. And when you defended, there is a possibility that you lose, because maybe Phillips has 20 lawyers, and they're probably better than than mine and, and they don't look at every single page of the pattern. So I learn myself unlike probably richer Richard. I mean, invalid, you, I don't I offer my ideas and I don't, I want to be part of the company and health company to do something. But I don't care about being the guy that button because I'm not able to to I'm not able to to Define for the pattern like a no.

1:23:48 But fucking on anything and I never saw anybody is their standard. I never ceiling. Is there still value in Patton's today there is a lot. Lot of value in the patterns. And, and if you have The money you need to do the full process. So you have to know you have to know that you. This is the amount of money you don't have to think that the moment that you pattern, this is the amount of money you're going to spend, you know, you patent an idea. But then you have to know that the moment that you need to, you know, to use that button, you need to spend more money and then these things never end. So if you if your company has enough money to cover all.

1:24:31 These expenses. You buy them. If if you, if you are not ready to spend this amount of money, you're wasting your time. Yeah II. Don't know, I'm on the fence a little bit because you know, problem number one is that I think when you're patenting things you're basically slowing down or stopping the Innovative process and lights and sound and all of the technology in our industry where a very A Small industry. So we're not like pharmaceutical drugs is different. Pharmaceutical drugs. Yes, you have to get patents because you're spending hundred million dollars to create a product and you want to at least collect back 200 million before, you know, the Chinese come and kill your market, right?

1:25:20 So, that's different. But in our industry, that's very small, where you're really never going to recover all of your money from all of your Innovations. It just doesn't happen by patenting. Like, if you think of We slow down the progress of LED in the beginning because of what Phillips did, because of the whatever it was, 117 patents, they owned or whatever. You know to me that's not good for the industry. That's not good for even just LED as a whole, this Yae progress, I love to share, you know, what will I learn is a right now, I am in my new career, I r&i help every company that ask me for any help or, you know, share, I love to share more than protect because patenting is a protection.

1:26:15 So I don't care, you know, I don't care. I love this industry and I want to see this industry to progress, but, but even the thing about defending those patents, you know, and I don't even know if I ever shared this story and I'm not going to say it right now. But you know II trademarked. I came up with a Trademark for a part of my business at one point in 2015 or 16. And one of the largest companies in the world, literally the largest company in the world stole it. And all of a sudden I saw them advertising with my brand that I had trademarked and I was like well this is strange. So I called my lawyer and said you know I guess we should just change the name and they said no, no you this is your trademark and so you know we sent them a letter try to settle. They basically Luckily told me to get lost. And so we had to hire an attorney and go after them because the thing was I couldn't use the name anymore because now the biggest company in the world was using this name. So it was useless to me and yet, you know, I'm sitting here looking at my trademark for the name right now and so I sued them.

1:27:26 Ultimately, and I lost and I didn't lose, I had to give up because basically all they Do is they try to kill you? They try to crush you and put you out of business even though you own the trademark, you own the patent. We are. We went through the same same experience, you know? And and you know Dimension not the trademark but the LED five that you was mentioning not. Not just we had, we been slowed down by that. Yeah. But we've been slowed down by a company that was selling us. Lamps LEDs and then eventually they even bought a moving head company.

1:28:09 I mean, we've been slowed down by as a buyer that is also a competitor that avoid. You know what you want. You should I clean your car to you, you need to wash your car. What else should I do? Well and also these companies who don't seem to have a problem suing their customers. I don't understand this like, how can you, how can you sue your customers, you know, because they don't show it to you because I went to that the answer to you that, you know, it's a different division with the same name on it though. It's on LOL. This is different division. You know you say but you know, you even when, you know, they tried that, there is a guy knocking the door and they want to, they want your money and then there is another guy from the same company. They want to sell you something and say, you know, can you talk to the other guy?

1:28:54 Maybe you send me something? If these are the guys that stop water from believe and there is a different division, the answer is always has a different Vision. So So, you know, we've all gone through in the past these problems with China, where, you know, China didn't really care if you had a patent or didn't really care. If you had a brand even, you know, I remember at one point here in the United States, there was, there was track spots when the track spot was really big. The high-end track spot. I remember there was a track spot that came in from China that said, manufactured in Austin, Texas, China. And and it It even had a little QC sticker on it.

1:29:36 That was member. What was his name, Woody? You remember Woody State rides me? Yeah. It had Woody's initials on the on the inspection sticker inside it, you know, they just copied it completely right? So China I assume has changed now from a standpoint of being respectful towards intellectual property. China is China, is totally changed. Totally China is now, manufacturing is a manufacturing machine and you don't stop them. You know, they are, there are good companies that you can talk to and they care a lot about patents.

1:30:22 Yeah. And there are small companies that they don't care about patents and and you buy good product by product is basically it. It's all in one so you cannot refer to China. You have to refer to specific games and, you know, I get what you're saying. Any, there's any good news then C and then there's us. And then there's still the bandits the the guys who steal other people's designs and copy their product. They can you can you can say like we was referring to eat that lie and even in Italy when you mentioned some of them Man Factory in Italy you can refer to the map to the Italian manufacturer because it was all different and it's a small country in China.

1:31:09 You cannot refer to the Chinese manufacturer or to the Chinese market. It's huge and yeah and where you have to refer to specific ones. We're having a problem now on gear source with where companies are selling counterfeit consoles, Like Grand Ma consoles or what's the other one, the one that Chauvet owns. Now, the Australian company. Control companies gents. No, no, no, Jen swab, what is it? Yes. No not generally or straight and I know anyways campuses they weren't Australian where they are.

1:31:51 Where they know they're British British right. But you know so we're seeing these copy consoles. Come up, Ava lights. You know, and they don't always tell you that. It's a counterfeit so it gets to the customer who bought it and the buyer goes, wait a second, this isn't an MA console but the seller is putting it on as an Ma they're not putting it on. As a counterfeit copy of an MA console and it creates a lot of problems because then you know, of course we have to return it and blah blah blah. But yeah I mean consoles, it's incredible. How heavily those are being copied right now. Not just like the beat the beat desks.

1:32:34 I don't believe would be be a big issue because, you know, the right now guys, like I made, they have such a advanced software that they can, they can they can stop that. Yeah, I mean, it's, you cannot copy that. Say are and loaded? Yeah. No they are the mains. Where's the? I think. At the moment, the Grande Meg. Discover that they are is like there are many locks that you can put into a softer in order not to work with any other Hardware. Yeah. I don't know what they're doing about it, but it is a real problem. So if they want to, if they just, if you advise them that they will, they will find a way for ya know. We do every time, every time we find one, we tell the manufacturer, we let them know and it goes away. So software is a little bit easier. Daniel, you know, the than lot, of course. Yeah, of course.

1:33:34 So, tell me about your current business, obviously, you know, that's why we're here. So, I had to go through your past because it's pretty important, you know, you were there, when candles were being used to Light Theaters. So we had to talk about the beginning. But so from what I understand, let me just explain it quickly and you can tell me how wrong I am. You're basically, you're designing, Products for other manufacturers in all kinds of different disciplines indoor-outdoor commercial architectural, theatrical, rock and roll. Whatever and so you're designing products handing it to them and they put it into their own Manufacturing. Well, depending on what?

1:34:22 What somebody needs. You know that let's say that what I tried to do for first of all, having having had like a logo on my t-shirt for for many years. I didn't like to move into another, you know, into another manufacturer or another, I choose to I you know when as I told you the the mighty president said to me about what you want to do and I said well I never I never asked myself what I really want to do so and so for the first time I went away and I said okay look folks about you want to really what you what you like to do and not what you have to do.

1:35:04 Yeah. First time in my life that I did and I said, you know what, I would love to improve the industry. You know, I would love to give what I learned to somebody. It's like when you when you I'm sure that you do the same with Jeremy, you know you have your, you have your kids and you want him to start knowing everything. You learn you know and you don't want that, you don't want him to start from the beginning because that, you know, will be very difficult. So I said, okay, that's what I want to do. I want a group. I want a group with some good people, you know, from my mind. Past and let's do something that is beneficial to everybody.

1:35:47 And, and also, I want to save the Italian knowledge because, you know, I want to make sure that Italy doesn't like, wise doesn't die. Yeah. Because, you know, it's very easy that, you know, all the knowledge goes in the garbage. So, I grew with some other with a, with a team of My vision very good guys. And and we are offering services that the lighting industry wants. And basically you come to me with your issue, Or in and I try I try to do my project.

1:36:33 Let's call it project. Where I step by step you. Tell me the task and I Deliver you. What's your name? Yeah, can be new products. It can be a marketing plan. Strategically plan or it could be a merge of our industry knowledge with other Industries. Like I'm developing displays that talks to motorized beds for the hospital's. Just to give you an example because, mm, mm. Oh, Motorized bed, use stepper Motors. The display is the same display that you use on a moving lights. So I just want to tell you that our industry can give a lot to the lighting industry and others because you know, merging our experience in LED 25 years of LED always owned in my garden. The first thing that you do, you just Talk to me. Architectural design lights that they don't know nothing about you know, electronica.

1:37:48 And and they, they ask us. What should I do to have a battery lies, the last, and what are the condition that you can find in Dubai if you want to, if you want to have an LED, the last very long and so what is the heat management that you recommend? And you remember that we did another. Another award-winning was the reflection that was like, one of the Product, you know that I love and where you know you have 200 watt LED in a center of a reflector that bounce back and you get like a perfect event field. Okay?

1:38:30 What you want and need that perfect in any field you want? What is your, what is your need? That can be a lighting designer, want something special, or in, you know, I'm proud of saving. Portion of the Italian like a business because you know, that's another thing that I'm very proud of. You know, that there was really a long period of time where Italy was. I wouldn't say dominating that together with other countries. We the like industry was here and still the architectural night is here. There is there are a lot of big manufacturer that the talks to me in every in every segment and and I'm kind of love what I what I do and what we Did myself, you know?

1:39:15 Because it's it's all about passion and giving away. A heat sink or your your experience. In this heat dissipation or is not given away, you know, you are capitalizing in and you share. Yeah, I'm not really jealous of what I learned at all. Yeah, but so, I mean, like you said it, it's not necessarily just product design, like sometimes people want a strategic plan, they want you to get involved in their strategic plan, Maybe Even helping them set up manufacturing on something or like have you had companies come to you that say we love this product but it's always breaking.

1:39:59 You know, we need we need to change something about it because absolutely absolutely or over your you know what I want is it's a moving like they like the cost that amount of money and it doesn't break. Yeah. So, okay. You, there can be another /. It's cannot say problem solving, but it's sharing. Ideas, basically what they did for all. My life successfully is listening to people and giving them solution. Yeah. And and I love that because that makes my experience beneficial, you know? I it's funny because what you're doing, I have I have a friend here in Florida.

1:40:39 He's an Italian guy who his family was in the furniture business in Italy, and he became very fascinated from a young age in. Meaning furniture. And so in Italy, you know, there was a market for very beautiful custom furniture. And so when he came to the United States, he started working with some of the furniture distributors and stuff like that. But then he started a company basically, to help design Italian products within Chinese manufacturing ranges or Vietnamese or whatever, wherever they were coming from, but they're all. They've all got Italian name. Eames and and some of its outdoor furniture, you know, very expensive, patio furniture or for cruise ships or something. Some of it's like, beautiful hotel furniture. He's killing it.

1:41:30 He's doing so well and it's the same basic idea. It's like rescuing that Italian mentality of design and Technical, and stuff like that, and then spreading it out over, you know, a bigger field, I guess, I feel that retain What you learn that is useless. Keep your experience for yourself, doesn't doesn't help anybody. So, what I see now is really these everybody's reluctant into new stuff in the show business that you like, you know, I'm talking about the show business of the time, you know, it when I when I share, you know, let's do something new you have.

1:42:19 Have you have come? It's very difficult and any has to come from the company. I mean, it is, it should be the Konami offering that but I see that really stagnant and I don't like it. I very much prefer other segments that are really welcoming Innovation. Innovation is really appreciated because you know LED laser basically. When you go to the dentist you you need an LED, you have an l Laser point in your, in your mouth. Yeah. So when I'm talking about LEDs or the experience, we have myself, I'm talking about something that can be used as.

1:43:01 We're not only in the shoulder, I love the show lighting and I wish that somebody will listen to this podcast and say, okay, what can we do new? Because that's what really is killing me when I go to the exhibition, you know, I see fantastic machines, but nothing It is really. Yeah. Knew that that's been that way now for I don't know 10 years or something where it's just like tiny little incremental stuff that's added. You know, oh Lars has 12 gobos. There's is only 11, you know, or a different Aura. Has an LED source and it leaves of source. Okay. With okay. But what What's the outcome?

1:43:43 You know what, what I see that is really different. You know, you have to tell me what, what you get, you know, what, you, you know, they won't world of the lighting designer. Then love the creativity, you know? And, and challenging companies right now. You know, I see an Bouncing movie Mirrors that, you know, is the same very light was doing in the 80s. Yeah. And so there's no nobody want to risk anything. Yeah. And it's sad because if you just take one of these big Venture Capital company and the probably makes money.

1:44:24 I hope they make a lot of money buying companies in our industry. If they just devote a little portion of their profit to a little office that just take cares about Innovation, you have only one you have the company. That makes a lot of money with the standard product but then reinvest a portion of their revenue into the future but that's in otherwise there's no future, you know, that everybody's going. It's a very good point. Like I think you've just stumbled onto something which is quite important, which is that we come from a background where you had a Founder, who was very innovative.

1:45:04 A very passionate very Visionary, you know, big Vision. I'm not saying there are none of those today. But what I'm saying is once you bring in venture capital or private Equity, it becomes all about just growing the dollars and growing the profitability, right? So the I think the inspiration or desire to invest, huge money into Innovation becomes much less They just want a million dollar of profit. They can. You can you cannot have a lot of You know, let's say me to company or second company, you know, everybody likes to be second or you know, nobody want to be the first, okay?

1:45:51 So there would be a lot of second when you build an industry with a lot of second. Okay. No. Nobody would be the Tesla. You know, Tesla was the first so you they spend it. That invested a lot of money Tesla. It's the first. We've been the first with all the product you mentioned and all of the other part and you know, and Innovation than I did. Going with your help and somebody else help. You know, that was, you know, we spend time we devote time resources into something that we believe right now. I see our, I mean, our extinguished because right now, I'm thank God, you know? I'm I'm really doing a lot of things in other segments.

1:46:32 Yeah, but the in these specific segments will choose. What I see is that we have created created a lot of second company. You know, the one that the the one that really they're very good and making very good things. They I love, I love the technology, I love the reliability, I love the compact figure I because I love the inside because everything is good. Lovely. They are room. Good fantastic, you know. Everything is good. Have a good day is good. They're all good. Really good. You know, they all good and they are and they are.

1:47:13 So you're going down into the brain and the but when I'm when I look at the show, you know, we just finished the sanremo festival. It's probably the biggest Festival in Europe together with the what the Eurozone contest is a lot of money but the the salary Festivals really story. Cool. And it's very good lights. a lot of Technology you I can see a lot of Technology right there but the audience Doesn't see anything different from last year. Yeah, that's it. So when you, when you invest in technology you are investing in.

1:47:55 Okay, there is like the there will be a day that I can talk to a Grand Ma and it does the show without pressing any button, okay? But the show would be the same. It's time. Saving you are sitting in the audience that will look at this and Raymond festival or the viña Del Mar festival or whatever that I participated and we'll see the same show. Yeah, they will see the same effect since the video. It means the video really breakthrough. And if you remember when we did the, the ACL, that was the first being because that's the other thing because Sharpie came after the beam and the beam came from our product and and believe you with a monster, it built the monster will using it for Nellie.

1:48:45 Yeah. We designed the beam we all went into the beam because we have to break through the brightness of the video. So there was a change. That was a che a needed change. When we did the Infiniti the Infiniti and effect, a special effect, There was a being inside a wash because we had to break through the the video LED because the video LED was very bright, so you're building something. So, bright in the background that you know, 500 wall Gobo doesn't, you don't see it, you don't see it anymore. So the words that was a big change. The last big change I saw is at the beams and the beams was complimentary to the video.

1:49:33 So that was the last time that we participate to a really big change. Then we went into technology. Yeah. Technology, you know, I guess one of the other things is the faces of these lights where they've got the different, you know, effects on the face of the like pancake wash light, right? With the LED. Oh yeah. This is on that, you know. Yeah, there's a Honda, and I mean, I think the be, I was probably the first one, that sort of kind of did it, but Really high-end Bellevue did one that had like rings around the LEDs. You know, that's sort of innovative because you can look up at the rig and you get a different effect from those things, but I agree with you.

1:50:18 Like, I mean, I think everything is good right now, but nothing is blowing my mind. Like, I walk around out ldi, everything is starting to look pretty much the same. It's all really really good. You know, it honestly blows me away. How good Some of the stuff is because remember I sold Martin, you know, in the early days and also get if you, if you talk about technology. Yeah. And an improvement of to, to a perfect machine, you know, right now we're talking about machines that are really Extremely well designed. I mean, I don't see anybody manufacturing something that breaks or stuff that I or, you know, I've I have no experience, but you have more. So where does it go from there?

1:51:06 So, where do we go? What what's like, what would you love to see? Do you, you know, I guess you don't want to give away your ideas but ground. Yeah, I'm wondering where they go with this stuff. Aye-aye-aye I can tell you what, I really wish to see but it just something that I cannot share on the podcast. You know, it's funny because on this podcast, I used to do something with, you know, people who came on, you know. What's the one thing that hasn't been invented that you'd like to see invented and who was it? Richard Kadeem. I think, said, bending light, the ability to bend light.

1:51:49 I'd love to see that. And I was like, how the hell, yeah. Of, I need to trust owner. You know, it's very simple. My need to trust honor that happened to be the pilot LED. Yeah, I mean, the pilot LED was well known as a trust owner and we made it IP rated. You know, we made it known. I created, I created that was really one of one of I'm very proud of That program. And It's how you the capacity of translating.

1:52:34 I need to trust owner in to make it led IP rated not manipulated. So the what I what I what I love about United States and that's very different from America because the Italian like desire without offending anybody. Yeah, I've learned everything from the United States and so I am missing, you know, those conversation with the guys in in that we mentioned several times during this podcast, I they was just telling me I need to drop their I don't I need something that's the fits into the trust and Trust on the trust, that's very simple.

1:53:15 It was a very simple conversation or when you came with your friend and say I mean double of the light then was my job to make two lamps. color changing your the, you ask for double of the life, then my job is to transfer that into A product that will produc yeah. Knowing what we have available in terms of technology and and I love that, you know, it's it's when a lot of things can be designed especially now with in every all of these invention that you that we mentioned was done with tool and manufacturer. There was copying each other right now, we thousands of manufacturer of digital sources.

1:54:03 Can you imagine what can be done? Makes it It's what about unlimited? One of the so you mentioned wait wait is obviously something where I think they need to make big advancements. Wait and Silent. The new IP rated lights are fantastic. Yeah, are. But but now that we have IP rated lights, it doesn't Wireless become more important. So, you know, not just wireless data transmission, but Wireless power as well. And to a point where you can just literally, We put lights anywhere and you can power them and communicate with them from. Oh yeah. That these will be the, the moment that you have batteries that last longer and stuff like that. There would be many things that the technology will allow you to.

1:54:54 To have them board on on on the industry that you love. That is the show like a business there. That is, like technological Improvement. What? I'm talking to you about, is that what is the benefit, okay? I understand the benefit of a rental company, the use a moving head with the battery and I be rated and it's beneficial to him. But what about the audience? So we all paid by the ticket of the the of my daughter and your son that goes to the show and pay the ticket. They don't know nothing about how compact the light is. They don't care about the fact that is IP rating or not. These are technological changes that are allowed by powerful microprocessor.

1:55:44 This is, you know, it's the new model, but will you draw your Mac 2K in the garbage? Just Ancient a competitor X contracted because right now I have no competitor and love that. Yeah, so the, you know, I mean, will you try your Mac 2000's imperfectly? Wait, 30 kilos, you know them, you know, them by name because you, you and you've been using for 20 years, your lovely, moving heads, they make enough lights. So what the audience, what my daughter and your Son, see different in that Stadium. When you when you see a very compact moving head. One of these moving head, that works perfectly and they don't. Yeah.

1:56:38 But I don't want to make some visual you know, to me to me. I want to do something new. Something new was zooming, the light was moving, the games was changing the color changing the global. You know that's then was really what I invented in the past but My company's what I would call the food chain gets very complicated because the lighting designer wants these four things, and then the venue might want these four things. And then the lighting company, the rental company wants these four things and the lighting manufacturer wants these four things and they need to make x amount of profit. So, by the time everyone gets what they want, you end up with a Mac to K, you know, or like someone has to compromise. Mais somewhere and that's seems to be where we're at today. You know, we've got a bunch of really, really fabulous vanilla gelato, you know, and I want stretch at Ella or something, right?

1:57:38 Like I want I want something a little more exciting and, you know, I think in some sense, we're in the best place by far that we've ever been in the moving light business, because everything is good. Like I haven't seen a terrible moving light in a long time. And but, you know, nothing is like, just mind-blowing, you know? And, whereas we used to measure the show and see a mind-blowing product, right? At least, at least there was one light in, you know, back in the days when, you know, I was involved in the industry like deeply wearing like a company teacher in our up to vice president.

1:58:24 Every show there was at least one really product that everybody has to have like a product that somebody want to copy because that was really the problem. Lately with the Venture Capital company. I think that's that we we can name where the problem is is that everybody want to be second. You know you. Okay, you invent and I probably could have it's much better. It's a great observation. Everybody wants to be second and I think you're right. Like I think you're exactly like me. Just my impression of being second then than being first. You know. Yeah and in the end and when when you have like a sales team like we was used to have and you say okay we if we do that product how many how many you will sell okay if you know the target, you know the price you know how many Goebbels you know you know which piece of the cage you are eating but what about if I invent something new?

1:59:26 So what is the cake? What is the portion of the K? You want nobody? Nobody will. Nobody will nobody will answer. We have any will answer but is that fun for you know, I mean we had a lot of fun me, a new person. We had a lot of hell. Yeah. Me the guy said Noel Gary and Nate. We had a lot of fun. You know I'm talking about and believe you myself even paired, big fights a lot of fun. Yeah. A lot of fun. This is a fun industry or if the moment There is no more fun. It's evident, is the last one.

2:00:09 Yeah. So what do you think, asking slightly different question here? What do you, what are your thoughts on the state of the business today? The industry? You're talking about the show, like in business show, lighting business. I think that after covid is is actually good. My knowledge based on my feeling I think that covid-19 terrible but cleans the industry and right now basically what I see all around the world is that every singer, every everybody want to be on poor.

2:00:50 So that would be a law. A lot of companies that really have to Buy stuff and and it's very good for for companies that decide to sell use here. So I think I know I have a friend that will have a very good ear. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, so, here's, here's the, Again, The Devil's Advocate side of that is, you know, one of the things it did for individuals covid did for individuals was the rich people got much richer and the people in the middle for the most part got poorer. Right? And so, I think ultimately, the same thing is going to happen to rental companies. I think the largest who have private Equity behind them and they have the ability to spend whatever they need to spend to buy the newest product, or whatever. They're going to do really well, the companies who don't have access to Capital, or they ran up too much debt during covid because they just needed to survive. So they had to borrow money just to pay their rent and to pay their salaries or whatever those Annie's. I think this year we're going to see more and more of them really struggling because they can't afford to buy another million dollars or two million dollars worth of moving, lights to try and compete with the bigger companies, right? And so I agree with you 100% but it's always been like that. You may say.

2:02:14 So this is not, this is not different. Yeah I just think the separation is growing, you know, the same as it did. Like I said for individuals, billionaires are bigger Billionaire's. Now And you know people who had fifty thousand dollars in the bank now have ten thousand dollars in the bank and you know, so I just see that the Gap in between seems to be expanding and it's a very old, it's a very old thing because you don't want to be stuck in the middle. You if you can be either is more is more but I don't I don't see. Obviously, I don't live in the United States. Maybe I wish, but I don't because of the weather is much better or you leave them.

2:02:58 There it is quite nice. Probably the food is better here but it whether it is much better there. I miss the pumpkin ravioli. What? Come, you know, it's very easy, you just hang from the the, the you don't, you don't want to be that company. That is not good for. This move, the there's more venue and or you, you don't want to be that middle one that has all the problems of one side than the other side. And then the other thing that I see is that when I, when I open my mind to the lighting world, is that the lights goes basically everywhere. So, and I see that the business is doing extremely well. In many other segments, is not just The show like in business, it means if you if you look at just the show lighting business, you're looking at a very small portion of of the lights in general.

2:03:59 Yeah, yeah, I agree and you will assume it, there will be extremely healthy and when you learn about how to connect the max2 movie life, there are bridges around the world that needs DMX connection to call change the bridge and in then, you the in, I feel that we're very lucky because we are in we spend our life in an industry. That is lovely. Yeah and it lights makes people happy. You know, I always feel that lights is the opposite of the dark and dark is equal to you're scared.

2:04:44 You are worried. You light is always joy and happiness and and we are there. We are right there. We have the luck. We are, we are so, I'm so proud. You know all switching the light on yeah. Whenever, you know, I just finished a solar simulator just to give you an example and using the will discharge lamp. So the lamps the lamps, the LED, all the tungsten lamp, they all have. we learn a lot by any source and every time you switch the light on, even in your, in your house is the opposite of Of something bad. I mean, you don't want to leave in the dark. I don't know.

2:05:35 I don't know how to say that in a better English, but, you know, I mean, the best thing, I get what you're saying, I completely get what you're saying, we believe in the light and the moment, we I switch the light on. I still remember, you know, places where in Turkey, you know, I switch the light on for show and, or in the Vina Del Mar Festival. You switch the light on and people start clapping hands. Everybody's happy. So if one light Is broke, who cares? You know, the we are giving Joy to the people and that happens even if you do the light for an obstacle. So yeah, so I always say to the sound guys that nobody goes home, remembering the sound for sure.

2:06:16 Nobody goes, home and tells their family, or their wife, or their friends, or whatever, all the sound was incredible. No, it's always the lighting, the lasers, the Pyro, it's something Visual and, you know, to be a part of that. You know, I mean, especially when I was working with manufacturers, call them are included to be at a show when the house lights go off and your lights go on. It's like you know sometimes when I was with Martin, I was just happy that the lights went on. I was like oh thank God so. Well you see remember the beginning? Yeah let me ask you one more question because I'm taking way too much of your time here but you know, I know you've always been a really good person.

2:06:59 A family person, a person. That all the people around you could rely on. So do you get involved in giving back somehow like whether it's through Technical Training or through supporting Charities, or whatever it is? Is there anything that I do? I do? I do. I love I tried to give away as as much as I can, but in any Any charity Institute that is next to me. Means what I do. I support I received a lot by this industry, by the people of this industry. And and by my community because remember I still live in the town that you was visiting, right? When the original of the of the pointer grapes. Oh, I love that place.

2:07:54 I miss it. And and my father He passed away a couple of years ago and he was the founder of a charity institution that helps old people or people that needs transport system to go to the hospitals to. And right now, those guys have more than 100 cars. Wow. The end and they give service to the old guys that Need. Special help or any in here, in town, you can see where your money goes or where they've, they have invested and I love, I love giving away as much as I can in terms of. Well, first of all, I believe that the most important thing that I can give away and not money, but is my time. Yeah.

2:08:59 And you know what? Because my Valium my value, you know, if obviously, if you need money, This one has to give you, but the most important thing is, when I really care about you, I spent some time to you. And so I think Sean who's a racing driver so I promise you, I need money. I know that's always. Always need money and I have a fantastic daughter there. Also needs a lot of money because she will, she will start with the university. So, myself, vice versa, if you're thinking If you're thinking about giving away some money, just for charity purposes, think about my daughter for and likewise likewise to you. I'm happy to compare the costs at some point of University versus Motorsports, you know, Casey the Motorsport. It's probably the most expensive know I learned Sports. I live in a place where they have. So Wellington Florida, where I live. They call it the cold weather equestrian capital of the world Horses are apparently more expensive than racing especially Polo like to put a polo team on the field is five or six million dollars a season and and well thing good you're doing good you your son is not into idiot host now and would he would later find your parents he would have

2:10:32 died and my daughter, my daughter either, you know. Right now we're all in the middle of these like which university should I choose and all It's tough. So, where is she going? Do you know? She didn't decide yet. You should send her to America for a year. She can come live with Uncle Marcel. Well, I hope to keep her like close to me for for as much as I can because this year is in Italy. At when she turns 18, she will be start driving the car. So we have and not racing car. Everything Changes at that point when they start driving the car because you Control where they go anymore. You know, when I have to drive them there, I can control it but when she can drive her so far, so far, I'm in, I'm in the mood and I'm good. But, no, really.

2:11:23 I, I love my community and and I try to do as much as I can for my community. Amazing, I love that. First of all, thank you so much for doing this. I know I've been asking you for four years and and I feel like we could talk three more hours because we didn't get into to half of the stuff I wanted to talk about but I know we both have other things that we have to do. So thank you so much. I appreciate this. I really I really enjoy myself to talking to you, like, you know, like at the club, you know, friends and just like, we're just waiting. Just means we're just missing a glass of wine and that would be the next one. Yeah. Well for me, it's still only 2:30 in the afternoon. So I think that would make me an alcoholic if I was drinking wine.

2:12:11 Don't do it during the next time. Good, you lots of water next time. We'll do it on a Saturday or something. So I can drink wine at 2:00 in the afternoon, and not feel bad about it now. So, thank you so much. Camilla, tell my friend. Thank you. All right. Ciao, ciao, bye.

2:13:09 You like that?