#186 - Mickey Williams / Gig Life

0:01 Hello. And thank you for joining me today on geezers of Gear episode number 186. Today's episode is brought to you, by act entertainment. Are you a student thinking about a career, in live entertainment, or an educator with students, who might be act entertainment? And act Academy are proud to have partnered with ma lighting International to offer the new professionals bundle to students and Educators in North America. This new bundle puts the power of the ma viskiki and act Academy's. Beginner learning path in your hands at a very special price just for you together. They can help you unlock your future of playback, programming and design.

0:47 Check out the new bundle and all of the other learning resources at act Academy today. Okay, here we are on gives of Gear episode number 186 and so thanks for joining me today and another great guest actually a gentleman, I don't know.

1:38 So I'm looking forward to talking to him and learning a bit about them and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute. But first of course, I want to talk about a couple of of things. So it is February 14th today. Happy Valentine's Day, everyone. And of course, the Super Bowl happened, two days ago today is Tuesday, it happened on Sunday. And for those of you who are not in North America, you may not care, but the Super Bowl is one of the largest in sporting events in the world. I think it might be the largest single sporting event in the world. And, you know, it's just It's a pretty big deal every year. It's just one of those things that we get pretty excited about over here.

2:21 It's a football game but it's also an extravaganza. It's a huge event. All the stars come out and and you know, the funny thing about the Super Bowl is not only is the halftime show really as big as the game, but the commercials are as big as the game. And so it's funny because you know for a sporting event, usually the commercials are really just a good time to go grab another beer. Or or another slice of pizza or some more wings. But instead people are actually glued to the television to watch these commercials. And there were some really good ones this year in a couple of Music, based ones one, the one with Paul Stanley and Ozzy Osbourne, where they're saying you can't call people in your workplace rock stars you can't use that word. You know you're they're not rock stars. They're just people who did a good job or whatever we're rock stars like what did you do to become a rockstar? It's pretty funny.

3:13 It's a great commercial if you if you Paul Stanley, rock star commercial, you'll probably find it on YouTube or whatever and then the other one is Dave Grohl where he's talking about Canadian music and and Canada in general and it's a Crown Royal at I think or some whiskey at, I believe it's Crown Royal, but another really good music based commercial. So again, I mean, you can probably Google those. I'm sure they're all over YouTube and other platforms as well. The Thoughts on the game, you know, I'd love to get messages emails, whatever feedback from you on your thoughts on the game.

3:53 I thought it had the possibility of being one of the better games that's happened at least in the last 15 or 20 years. I was not a fan of the call at the end and I had no, what do you, whatever you want to call it, dog in this hunt or horse in this race or whatever, you know, for me, I didn't care who won. I just Like to watch a good entertaining game and I thought it was a great entertaining game and then for an official with a couple of minutes left to not allow them to play the game out calling what was arguably a penalty you know even the guy who did it said yeah it was definitely a penalty but they hadn't called that penalty through the whole game.

4:35 Why would you call it with two minutes left? You know, when it had all of the makings of an epic finish like it was going to be a huge finish. Regardless of which team won and it probably still would have been Kansas City. But, you know, bummer bummer that it ended that way. Bummer that it was a controversial call, you know, the officials I think have done a relatively miserable job overall this year. And you know, I know it's shocking that someone would complain about officials in a football game, but here I am. And so the game aside, what did you think of the halftime show? And again, it seems to be a very controversial topic because people are split on You know, of course, old school.

5:17 Folks want to see the Rolling Stones and they want Prince brought back from the grave because Prince was the greatest show ever. And I happen to agree, I think Prince was an incredible. It's a hard one to beat that halftime show. You know, I personally liked the Michael Jackson one even though a lot of people didn't, the stones were amazing, Paul McCartney was amazing. You know, I thought the Justin Timberlake thing with Janet Jackson was amazing, even with the traversée on the wardrobe malfunction there that she had, which wasn't much of a malfunction at all. It was planned, obviously, you know, where did this one rate on all of those?

5:58 I got, to be honest. I'm not a Rihanna fan, I don't like her music. I don't really know her music. Of course, I've heard some of the songs that work work, work work that one. I've heard that a billion times. I'm not a fan. Do I think it was pretty awesome. That a woman went On one of those Decks that most of us would be scared to death to fly around on and she's I don't know how pregnant but she was obviously quite pregnant, you know, good honor. I mean that's fantastic that she was able to go up there and perform the way she did on those flying decks. And and again, not my music, not my thing, you know, if it was Mick Jagger floating around on those decks.

6:42 I would have thought it was the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life but Because it was Rihanna Met, didn't do much for me. The guys, in the marshmallow, Michelin outfits, didn't do nothing for me. And guys, girls, I don't know what those people were to be perfectly honest. I think, you know, it was all over the place, but I didn't get it. And so, yeah, I mean, but moving on, from the music and the actual performers the show was incredible, you know, was it up there with the best ones ever? I don't know. Like, I try not to rate them like that, because they're all different, you know, I thought the one last year was incredible. I didn't love the music in that one either, but I liked it better than this because I like the old school rap stuff, it's pretty cool.

7:27 But from a show standpoint, you know, this was right up there. This was really really good. Those floating decks from Tate were incredible. The stage. I think it's all access that. Did it incredible? Really good job. You know, I think people know by now, how much time you're allowed to get that in and A out. It's it's unreal like how that all has to come together and and then strike at the end and get off the field and the limitations that you have with what you do to the field and on the field and stuff, the field is, you know, sacred ground. So you can't mess with that. So the stage was cool. The lighting was was very cool. I think it was a shit ton of those new VL fixtures or not, so new anymore, but I think they're called 3600.

8:12 There was hundreds of those. You know that there was a lot of automation going on from, I forget the companies that were doing it but I think it was prgs followspot system, the what's it called? Ground support and then the other one, the one from Europe which named always escapes me but really, really super cool. And you know just I thought it was a very cool looking show. I thought the fireworks, of course, we're incredible from pyrotechnic. Oh And yeah, so for me, you know, I give it claps, I think it was very good. I enjoyed it again.

8:54 Not so much on the music but for sure on the show and so this week I actually have three episodes, I think I'm going to kick out. I've got this one today and then I've got one on racing, believe it or not. We are actually going to get my son on a podcast, which I've been bugging them to do for a year and he's finally going to do and he's going to talk about his He's in this year in Europe and what's going on over there? And how that's all going to work out. So I hope you'll listen to that one but more exciting. For me is I have Faust orsatti recording tomorrow and Fausto. For those of you who know him, I don't have to tell you but for those who don't know, him fausto's been in our industry. I'm going to guess here.

9:37 I think it's very close to 50 years. It's definitely 45 how old is he? I'm trying To think how old he is, at least 40 call it. And so you know, he started at Komar when Komar. First got into, I think even before their first moving lights. And so, you know, he's been an engineer and a very smart guy in our industry for a very long time. I'm really looking forward to having him on. And, of course, today I have a gentleman named Mick Williams, who operates kind of a gigging employment agency and he'll probably kill me for saying that because I think on his website, he says, we're not a gigging. Employment Agency, we're more than that.

10:18 So we're going to learn about that today. His company's called gig life. I was intrigued. I thought we should discuss this since you know, we're always talking about gear. We're always talking about shortages of gear how you know post covid, it's been a huge problem, getting gear. But of course the other possibly even bigger problem has been humans, you know, getting people continuing to bring people in the industry and manage those people and get them on gigs and match people with gigs and stuff. So that's that's what he's doing. And so I look forward to talking about it with a true bona fide expert for once. So, there you go. Welcome Nick Williams. So, welcome aboard here, Mick. And I've just learned that it's actually Mickey, right? It's like yes, sir, Mickey I've been calling you Mick through the introduction that I just did. So I hope I didn't offend anyone but welcome and and I'm glad to have you on your one of the few people. I Out on that.

11:16 I really had no knowledge of and didn't know prior to bringing them on. So I'm kind of looking forward to learning along with our audience. You know, about sort of your history and learning a lot about the labor market as well, which is a Hot Topic these days obviously sure. Sure, absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think you're either in exactly the perfect place or you're a masochist. So I want to figure out which it is by the end of this podcast. All right? Yeah. So You know, first I know that, you know, by Geezer standards, you're kind of young and and so you've been in the business I think around 10 or 12 years, right? Yes, as I bet, it's about been about 10 years. I did my first gig in 2012, a little over two hours, I should say.

12:03 So going on, 11 years now. Yep. So how why, what got you into this business? It's actually a family families. What got me into the business prior to that? You know what my background is really? Corporate corporate banking, I worked for marketing advertising company owned a couple of my own businesses and it's my parents actually my stepdad more, specifically, he's been in the business for quite some time. He used to work for an old Amphitheatre that's in Columbus, Ohio, which is woven from, and he was working in ticket sales there. So he kind of knew the industry worked in the industries. An old radio DJ, you know, work in Southeast. Ohio is an old disc jockey Be so fun. Yeah, so that's kind of how I got into it. He got into the labor business, working for a company back, back in 2012 13, 14 somewhere around there. Okay, and he basically called me up one day and said hey I have this gig.

13:03 It's a buckeye country Festival, you want to come work it with me, okay? So I'm like, sure what are we doing? Is like I'll show you when we get there and so that was my experience, you know, my first gig is a festival. And I'm there and I'm working be stage and I've got the easiest gig you've ever you could ever ask for his back line for be stage. Oh, that's so that, that was kind of when I fell in love with with with Live Events and I was your father-in-law's company called it's show Pros. Okay. And it doesn't still do it. Yeah, they're still in business. I actually just left there at the end of last year and then I started my own company in January. So gig life is as relatively young you know we just opened up in January of this year. It's our last year 2007.

13:47 This year of this year though your brand-new. You're like a month old. Yeah. So my company. Yes, absolutely. Wow, you heard it here first folks that's wild. So has that created? Is there something going on in your family now like is, is that problematic because you're doing basically the same thing, right? I wouldn't say it's problematic, you know, things just were not working out between the three of us my parents and I, and yeah. Sorry there was time for me to go on my own and I kind of these things made it higher. I wanted to do things that's cool. And obviously right now in the labor market, it's big enough that, you know, competition is welcome, I guess you would say, absolutely absolutely. Wow.

14:34 So so you're in Columbus and they're also in Columbus, their company started in Columbus. They do have an office in Columbus as well, but they're Florida as well. Okay? Okay, cool. Good interesting. So the company's brand new. So, you know, do you have some built-in clients just from having been in the business, 10 years and taken really good care of people or do you have to go out prospecting for clients? Now, a little bit of both little bit of both, you know, obviously I needed to let people know that I was in business for myself. I actually just did my first gig this past week. I was a corporate gig which is my main background, is in corporate audio-visual. Okay, and that's when I started, as mainly what I did. And then, you know, after this shutdowns and covid, we got more into rock and roll and the festivals and fairs. So it's kind of been full circle. Now, I'm getting back into the corporate audio-visual, which is as where, you know, I started and right. And we had a gig last week, so, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's congratulations and good luck to you on that. Obviously, I think, you know, it's a great time obviously to start in that business because Cuz there's just a huge need all circles.

15:49 Like, I mean, you know, festivals need more people and companies that Supply festivals with people need more people, you know. And and so you're kind of like a Marketplace. I mean, you're not totally dissimilar to what I do with gear source, which is sort of connect, people who need stuff with people who have stuff. So you're a Marketplace for talent in a sense, or 44 crew people. Yes. And so is the bigger problem for you. So by the way, we could have a separate conversation offline about this because I have a huge amount of experience in it. 20 years in Marketplace experience but every Marketplace has something that's called the cold start problem which is usually which is its compared to like a chicken and egg problem.

16:39 Basically, so you either have customers and you need product or you. Of product and you need customers. And so which is a bigger problem for you. Is it the Cargobob need for crew? I have the need for for customers at the moment. I've got plenty of crew. Okay, so just a little bit of history on my experience as a crew chief and it can labor coordinator and managing shows. Last year I did over 200 shows by myself, manager Burr, or I recruited tired and coordinated over 1,000. New hires. Wow. And I love Sho Pros. We had about 1,500 people active in our payroll and before I started there was maybe a hundred. So I, you know, I've grown quite a bit. I've done everything from Arena shows to festivals to helping out with the van Gogh experience. So my experience with managing labor in and managing labor and coordinating labor is is fast.

17:41 I mean, I can do it. I know that I have the experience, it's really just letting people know. Oh, that I'm out there because I've got a labor pool of over 3,000 people across the country. Yeah, so that's just where I'm at. I mean I've got plenty of Labor. I know the players. I just need to plug them in. Yeah. And so just so I understand how this works with a company like yours if I am putting on a festival or I'm a sound company or whatever it is and I need to hire labor. Am I paying you or am? I paying the people directly? Preferably, if the way that I do it is through me. Yeah. And the reason why is so I can put them on W4 so I can pay them. Take their taxes out properly.

18:22 Whichever stayed. I'm in making sure that I'm taking out their taxes, properly. Yeah, well, so the insurance part, you know, making sure they're properly. Insured, making sure they have workers comp protecting the employees. Yeah, a lot more like the union, you know, that's the way we would do it. I don't really do the 1099 contractors stuff, very rarely, but most That I hire are going to be W to employees. Wow. And I think that helps with both with both sides because it helps protect the worker because right now, that's one of the things that we're seeing in the industry is that the workers are starting to have a lot more pole in the industry, they're demanding more money. Yeah, there's an antique more protection. They're there. They have the upper hand, I think I've noticed the swing and in a lot of the the movers and shakers in the industry or slowly coming around to that. You know, they got to pay a little bit more of the 1099, people across the country and having shows and 40 different states and stuffs in the past, it's going to be in the past. I mean, people are going to get started getting in trouble for that kind of stuff.

19:25 Yeah, they really need to be careful when they are 10 1919, you know, thousands of contractors across the country, it gets pretty messy. So yeah, I've stopped doing all that it's by the books, legitimate, they added. The reason I do this is because I grew up as You know, I started the bottom of this industry working as a stagehand. Yeah, there in the trenches building stages and I see these people struggle that love this industry. Okay. But it's a tough industry to survive unless you become specialized and you continue to network and progress. It's a taut. And you know this. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm at. It's good, it's good. But when it's not, it's really bad through, you know, like I literally, you know, talked some people down off the bridge during covid. You know, people who hadn't seen a paycheck in 12 months. You know, that's difficult.

20:20 It was wrong. It was really rough. And we did like you said, you'll be lost a lot of good people and I was one of the challenges that I faced when I came back from covid was okay. Now I need to hire and I was it was like starting over. It really was. I mean all the old list I had were just they were bad. I had to basically build a whole new roster locally where I'm based and And we grew Nationwide. Yeah, I went from working regionally 45 states to over twenty six states in one year too. And that's the explosive growth that the industry's scene and there's a lot of labor companies like me that are seeing the same kind of growth. So when you say, you're paying people on W-2s, are you paying full time salaries to people whether or not they work? Not necessarily it's more like They're just they get their taxes taken out so it's an hourly. W2 still?

21:11 Yes, now really do I say, yeah, you're not, you're not putting them on X salary whether or not, they work during those times. And sometimes you make out, and sometimes they make out its, they're still booking hours. Yeah, it's still booked by the hour, but the thing is, is that me as if I'm telling people where they need to be, what time to be there, when to take a break when to eat, yeah, they're no longer a contractor, right? So Legally. I need to take taxes out, and I need to make sure that I'm providing them with those basic benefits. Yeah, you can get in trouble when you're when you're basically having employees, but you're paying them on 1099s for long periods of time can certainly get in a bit of trouble with that.

21:55 Wow. So So you said the you need more customers. And so that's probably where most of your focus is is going out to a lot of those you know whether it's a tour or it's a whatever it is and and saying hey here I am. Yep. Yeah and I'll tell you do prospecting is my main goal right now. I got a lot of good stuff in the works. I think this is going to be a good year. You know typically in the midwest it's a little All right now. So march/april things will really pick up. Yeah, they will, you know, it's been it's been a little lately last couple years they've been a lot of last-minute bookings you know? And because labor has been in short supply. Yeah.

22:43 So people are finding that their labor resources will, you know, they either book too late or they might fall through or, you know, their shows fall a little short sometimes and that's where I can. I'll pick up some of the slack and bring in some people. Yeah I have a I have a A friend down here in Florida who has a as a labor company. And I saw him last week and an event and we were talking and I said, you must be killing it and he goes, man, it's so hard right now. You have no idea because, you know, he's struggling to get people then half the time. The people he gets her a little bit flaky and they don't show up on time or they show up stoned or they show up, you know, whatever or they you know, they're klutzes and they fall and hurt themselves or drops. Thing or whatever, you know, just all kinds of different problems that he's having in the past 18, 24 months that he didn't have prior to that for the most part, right? So and I think a lot of that comes from just bringing new people into the industry, right?

23:45 Like trying to expand your labor pool, which doesn't sound like it's that much of a problem for you. Like, it sounds like you've got access to great people. It's just more on the other side, but You know if and when that is a problem. Like when you are short on people or when you see a problem coming or something like covid-19, has people left the industry, do you have some way of bringing in new people and training them and making sure that they're you know safe and and not going to injure somebody else on the job or screw something up like how are you dealing with all that stuff? Why is, you know, it depends on the event. I mean, when you're talking corporate versus rock and roll, you know, you're talking to your porn animals there. It's like, so I can touch base quickly on the corporate stuff where I'm finding most success on the corporate stuff is just traditional labor.

24:44 Recruiting, you know, using things like the online job, job postings, job boards. Yeah, indeed indeed. Just good old-fashioned resumes and sourcing text that way, but the me Your schools are good to, you know, you have like Full Sail, Ohio Media School, the media Schools. They're really good. A lot of the the students to go through those those they want to be, you know, producers and they want to work in the television and broadcast it stuff like that. Well, what they don't know is there's this whole other industry of audio-visual, then they make pretty good money. So that, you know, companies like Encore and smart Source, they need audio visual text.

25:25 And so I've been communicating a lot but these schools saying, hey, you know, bring some of your students in let's train them through the audiovisual gigs that we get. And then you know, we opened our eyes to a whole another source of income for them that hey if broadcast doesn't work out or if you know I can't get a job working for this TV you know sports check for Fox News or something. Yeah I'm going to fall back on on that side. Now as far as the staging stuff goes well sorry to interrupt but the other thing It's really important about what you just said is, is, you know, people come out of school and they want to start at the top of the food chain or whatever. And I get it, you know, there's their eyes are huge, you know.

26:05 They're, they're, they're like, I'm going to go work for ESPN. The problem is, you know, you got to kind of take some baby steps to get up there. But one of the great things about coming in and doing a sort of shows through a labor company like yours or even, you know, through a company who just does different Shows or whatever is you build your network and and you you're not only learning but you're proving yourself to some people and then, you know, later on, they go oh I remember that kid. He worked for me on a, you know, whatever show and he did a really good job and I remember he said this thing that really, you know turned me on to that kid. So I'll take him on any of my shows that kind of stuff is gold.

26:50 Like, that's the value that you. Those are the checks you can cash later in your career, right? That's what I'm trying to do. You know, is, is I value the people that are working for me, you know, people that I'm working with and helped help build them up and help them be successful in this business because it's about the numbers to me. Yeah, it could be successful and they can make a career out of this, they can get to where they want to be, and I can help with that. That means more to me than just accidentally. Yeah together. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. That's that's all there is to it. Like, I mean, you know, I started in this industry and and have worked in it for a very long time. Trying really hard.

27:33 Every step of the way to take care of people and do the right things and work harder than the people around me and stuff. And that gets you, you become memorable at some point whether you're remembered for good or bad things. I don't know. But you know, you become memorable and then you know, when you try to get somebody on the phone, it's easier to get them on the phone or you try to get a gig. It's easier to get that gig. You jump to the front of the line because you've done something. Remarkable in the past or whatever. Right. Right. So yeah. So I mean, You know, tell me, give me some sort of education on the the business because I really don't know very much about the labor market. Like, I know that we're constantly dealing with supply chain issues and stuff, when it comes to gear, and my focus has primarily been on gear, while, you know, every time I do one of these podcasts, I'll ask whether it's a lighting designer or an audio engineer or someone who owns a touring company, or whatever it is, I'll say, Say you know, is it gear or people? What's your bigger problem right now? And, you know, they really have to think about it because the answer is both but, you know, I think they're sort of neck-and-neck, right.

28:48 Yeah, they are. I mean, you know, I don't really deal whole lot with the gear side. Yeah, the really been on on that side of the business. It's primarily been in labor. Yeah, I've worked for some some companies and help them with their inventory, you know, loading unloading trucks Warehouse, stuff got familiar with their gear and I was far as the, you know, the that part of it. I really don't know a whole lot about the labor. I mean, it's a tough situation to be in because You know, laborers at a premium it really is and I think that people are finding that out and so all I can say is that it's just, it's not cheap anymore. Yeah. People are starting to realize that and it's because the laborers, have the upper hand because they know that they can demand more money.

29:37 And so it's kind of like you got in my opinion at this point is that you pay for what you get I mean where are we at now as far as like you know, a typical And what are they making a day or whatever? I would say 25 to 30 an hour? Yeah. Is the, I think the most people are shooting for about $30 an hour. Yeah, they Jam, which is about half of that, right? Yeah. I mean, I used to, prior to covid you're looking at 17 to 22. Yeah. Well we're paying anywhere from 25 to 30 an hour and consistent so it's gone up quite a bit and who absorbs that additional cost. Is it the is it the Aunt. Is it the mean is it the end consumer? That's a good question.

30:24 I think that I know, but for me it's a little bit of both. Some of the clients were able to get them to negotiate higher rates to cover some of those costs because you know, that's everything's gone up. Yeah, you know pull everything in general just with inflation in general but a lot of it has been us assuming those costs just because we want to continue doing business. Yeah. So it's kind of a mixed. You got companies that are still paying kind of similars, you know, rates to what they Paid prior to covid and then there's companies are realizing that they can't continue to do that if they want to continue to get Quality Labor. Yeah. And that's really what the problem is because when I go out there and tell people well the jobs only going to pay 18, 19, 20 dollars an hour that really limits the quality of Labor that I'm going to get which is really going to reflect on the show and it just in my opinion is it's a headache.

31:14 It's a hassle. And if you want to write a true quality professional production, yeah then get rid of that and In Europe, just pay people decent wage and it all come. It's very cliche but you do get what you pay for. You know you pay peanuts you get monkeys or however that goes but you know and I would think like one of the things for corporate shows. You don't want guys showing up with, you know, a Harley-Davidson t-shirt and the crack of their ass hanging out of their jeans or whatever, right. Like you want nice show blacks and nice and clean and their hair tucked back behind their head or whatever, right? Because the corporate clients going to see those people. Exactly. I was going to say, it's not our clients.

31:54 It's their client. It's the they have the rules. You know? No, piercings. No. You know, they're wanting really, that's still a bang. It really is. I ran into a problem at a hotel and there was a facial, piercings was a thing. Hmm. And to me, that was, you know, it was asinine. I'm like, really. This is, you know, 2022, it's like, but it's still a thing and it's unfortunate. It's what this is. I mean, I could see Disney or something, but I that surprises me that that that would be an issue. About mention the hotel. But yes, it was a hotel and it is under little rules, you know? That's interesting. And they actually said something about it to stay. Did my dad now we since then, you know, you know, everything's good now.

32:36 We work through it. But yeah, my guy said home for facial facial piercings and I was like, hey Lee really, that's what causes the, how hard I work to provide quality paper for you guys, and these guys are Great Tech. I mean, yeah, easy, and he has a nose piercing in a A scene in you're going to send him home. Yeah. I mean that's, you know, again maybe in 1985 or something but you know like II don't know, it can't still be the same, but I remember Disney employees couldn't have hair past their shoulders and I doubt it's still the same today, but, like, even lighting designers sound Engineers Talent, you know, men couldn't have their hair past their shoulders and they couldn't have earrings. And in their ears.

33:23 I'm not even talking about facial, I'm just saying an earring in your ear, you couldn't have again. I'm sure that rule has changed, you know. With it is. It's becoming a lot more. Yeah. A lot more accepting. Let's just. Yeah, you know there's there's a lot more crossover now between you know Festival people. You know tour people and corporate AV, there's a lot more in my opinion. I don't know. It might have always been this way. I don't know. But, you know, a lot of the people that I employed they They can do it all. Yeah they can they can run a corporate breakout room but they can also go you know, climb the stage if they yeah they will. They're willing to do it. These people are cross-trained and a lot of different aspects of the business which is pretty cool. Yeah, you're not Union, are you?

34:08 I am not. I mean, I'm on the the call list for my local 12 in Columbus, but I never did really go to Union because I've been working for my family's business and yeah I felt really wasn't the right thing to do to be Union and run a private company so yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah covid had to have changed things in a big way like first of all you know, you were working for your family business. Are you guys pretty much shut down during covid? No. Yeah, absolutely. Like completely shut down. Yes. Yeah, we were working. I remember I was just talking about girlfriend about this earlier today but it was March 7th 2020.

34:51 I was setting up for the Arnold Expo in Columbus Ohio, which is the bodybuilding competition. Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenegger. And that's the day that we got the call that the event that we were setting up for which was a cheerleading competition was canceled. So we just done, we had just finished Finished setting up the load in and two days later we came in, we loaded it out, didn't even have an event but that was the first major event across the country. If anyone remembers that started the domino effect of everything else, canceling it was so over the next week or two. I'm sitting there with my with my family and we're just watching a news this events, canceled that Ben's canceled Facebook, social media and were like, oh my God, what are we going to do? And that point, you know, we were just starting to to take off.

35:38 We had just decided to take the company National because prior to covid. We were really just a regional player based out of Ohio, a little bit of regional work stuff in the midwest. Yeah and then so it was a two thousand eighteen or nineteen. We decided we were going to go National so we just started put a national footprint out there. So it really it sucked. I'm not gonna lie. It is hard. And for over a year, we were just adding water. So you guys didn't try and pivot and do labor for hospitals or something like no, no. I mean, I yeah, I know it I ended up getting a job and just find out through it, you know. Luckily my mom was a retired teacher, so she had some income, she was able to support herself though. You know, and well but the best it was it was it was awful but it was a blessing.

36:28 Blessing. Because after things open back up after covid, things went gangbusters. And we've since then growing the company tremendously Wade, still allow me to gain so much more experience and understanding and able to open my own business. Yeah, I can continue to grow myself. That's that's awesome. So, during covid, did you also have like, your, your stack of Diaries, the people that Work for you, where they come in to go and please help me, you know, I need a gig. I need a gig like they're there for, I mean. Yeah. There were people that were, I mean, the river and, you know, it was a rough time for all of us. I know a lot of people went out shorted or dashing and yeah, we in and just anything to good to make end. Yeah.

37:16 That was the only good news is, because everybody became remote and and stayed at home and stuff. It opened up a lot of Amazon, jobs, and doordash and all that. And, you know, I guess for A laborer, who's used to making 17, 18 bucks? An hour? That's probably reasonable money to go do those things. And in some cases, I know guys who you know, worked for staging companies and left, and went to Amazon, and never came back, because they're making more money, it's a cleaner job. They've got benefits, it's full time. They don't have to hustle for work, you know, so I get it right, but it's know you probably don't know.

37:57 Young lady named sooner Ruthie She's a lighting designer who she's done, kiss and Coldplay and the Muse. And lots of lots of big acts, really one of the most talented lighting designers out there, but I was talking with sooner about it. And she said, one of the problems in our industry is that people think we're a bunch of carnies, you know. They think that it's just for fun, right? And they don't realize that you can come into this industry. Make Seventy-five to a hundred thousand dollars fairly quickly and stay in the industry all the way into your 60s or 70s and do very well.

38:39 It's a really good gig and you can see the world on the touring side of it specifically but you can see the world and do things that you never would have done. Had you not joined the industry and she said so it's not just training, it's also education. So it's going out to those schools like you talked about and saying Hey, you know, here's an opportunity. I know you all want to be movie directors and producers and stuff. But here's an opportunity to stick your toe in the water and get on some of these shows and get close to this gear and get close to the people that will make a difference in your life. Right? Absolutely. So education education is a big thing and I, you know, through the the impact that covid had where everybody ended up short on people, I know a lot of regional like touring companies, lighting companies, sound companies AV Companies who have had sort of like job fairs and where they bring people in and they have classes like, you'll go through a couple of these different classes where you can see how things are done or learn about learn about audio, learn about lighting, learn about staging.

39:45 And then at the end, they go, okay, which discipline would you be interested in joining in to, you know, I want to get into staging that looks fun, you know? So I mean to me the whole Even thing is a pretty important aspect of making sure that our business stays healthy, we have to constantly be turning new people in as people are either aging out of it or just joining different Industries or whatever. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with that and that's something that really is something that I stand behind and I want to get more involved with that coming up with ideas on how to do that. Is a challenge one. Is I have though as far as training new people and what I what I try to do to myself is like if I'm doing a Rina shows or if I'm doing like rock and roll and stuff, you know this goes along with Tori and stuff because this leads right into it, right?

40:39 Yeah I think a good way a good way for stagehands to get started in general. Is an arena show is a perfect place for people to get started. I know that sounds crazy but you know when you got 100 people working there you start people lo you start them as pushers, okay? You got to start them in there don't you know, maybe put them on the carb team having build a stage, hire more people that are experienced and not in bring people in that way. So Arena shows in my opinion or perfect ways to get people in the door and get to get a good understanding of how a show goes from start to finish. Yeah. And as far as corporate work, The what I try to do is I try to get people into the hotel's as just a general set. Strike Tech by shows that have maybe a half a dozen.

41:23 You know, 8 10 12, set strike, text may be setting up a big General Session, some breakout rooms and get them in that way. Obviously have more experienced hands there to help them do the on-site training for me. So I'm one person I can't really do a whole lot when it comes to me. Yeah. You know what, I wish I was at a time so you know working with companies like Encore with, you know, they've got so many hotels. If you have if you work with Encore, that's a great place to get audio-visual. People trained in and through their been use build relationships with them and say, Hey, you know, one day, while we set a couple days aside and just go over some basic audio visual stuff. Yeah. Even the Arenas and stuff, we should be doing trainings at the here at the arena. Is it? And having some of those hands on training we should be doing that.

42:06 Absolutely. I mean there's definitely some liability issues when it comes to some of those things. Of course like you put you know, you got an Show going in, it's pretty hectic. There's a lot of people moving pretty quickly and stuff and some green people can certainly get in the way real quickly and accidents happen and stuff. But like, I've thought of ideas, like, you know, even just basic simple job fairs, like, putting ads in local papers saying, hey, there's a job fair. Do you want to join the entertainment business and get involved at the ground level and make up to 50 thousand dollars a year in your first year or whatever. Free. You know the first 50 people are free or something like that for this job fair and you have 75 80 100 people show up and you really just go through. Hey, you know, here's a slide show. Here's these are some of the things we do. Here's what it looks like.

43:01 Here's what the job, looks like, blah blah, blah. Sign up here. And if nothing else you got new people on your, you know, call sheets or whatever, right. And and probably Out of the, you know, 50 people who show up 15 people are 20 people sign up and out of those 20, probably like three or four or five may stick it out and actually say, hey, you got anything for me? Hey, you got anything for me and eventually they turn into something, but that would be one way to do it. You know, another thing would be to pair up with the schools and actually go to the school and say Hey I want to come in and do a speaking thing for you know, People that haven't decided what they want to do with their life or whatever, but yet they're ready to graduate, you know, can I come in and speak to these classes or these types of people or whatever it is? Yeah.

43:56 And that's what I'm going to do. That's what I plan on doing. Yeah. I know years when you're small yeah it ended. The biggest problem is that we're all so busy. Yeah. It must be specially. You know, pose covid. It's been just just Balls to the walls. They really has is they are so much work. And everyone is so busy and it's just finding the time to do this stuff. Yeah. You know and putting the time that you know, the time they offered in the, the salesman in me and I've been a sales guy, my whole entire career. Basically, I'm a entrepreneur but I've always been a sales guy but the sales guy and me tells me stop prospecting and you'll have nothing but free time in the future because you won't have any shows, right?

44:36 So you should always be prospecting. You should always be trying to fill those those lists with people and stuff. If and, you know, whether it's a half hour a day or two hours a week or whatever it is, but, you know, figure out a way to schedule, time to do those things because you have to constantly be refreshing your lead list or whatever, right? It's super, super important. There was something else I wanted to say, and I forgot while you were talking and I didn't want to interrupt, but yeah. Oh, what about, you know? And it's not my greatest topic or anything because I think it happens naturally. But what about diversity? Like, are you looking, have you done anything with either trying to promote for young women or people of color or, you know, any other group sort of to to help add more diversity to, you know your list? Have I done anything specific to do that? No, but do I hire equally?

45:41 Absolutely? Yeah, it's me. That none of us has ever been an issue and never will be. We hire, if you are Willing to, you know, work and and you're, you know, you have the qualifications, you know, or your The Experience depending on what you're doing, you know, we'll let anyone that wants to do this. Try this. Yeah, we are the at the industry, they always like to say, you know, like we're you know, we're a second chance business, you know, will give anyone a chance to prove themselves, right? Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's no, you know, there's no. Yeah. Well I mean that might be another Other another way to bring in more people is you know again going back to that job.

46:23 Fair thing go out and post ads, you know, in inner-city neighborhoods and stuff where, you know, people don't have a lot of opportunities or they don't think they have a lot of opportunities and say, Hey, you have just as much opportunity as the guy who lives over there across the street in the nice neighborhood. You know? Come come try this, you know this might be a great career for you. That's a great idea that definitely is that I won't charge you for that one. Mickey that's a freebie, you know? But as they get better, as my ideas get better, I'm going to have to start charging you. That's, that's where the business guy and meek. Yeah, I'd like to see. I'd like to see labor providers be treated more than just the numbers people. You know what I mean? Because your ideas are all good in Grand.

47:04 A lot of the lot of my clients, I'm not speaking badly about it. It's just, they, they, they think that, you know, it's just, it's if I want to do those kinds of things and provide that kind of quality of service as a temporary labels labor provider, it's good for the for the for the corporate side but in the staging World a lot of it's just a numbers game especially for a lot of companies. It's just a numbers game. Yeah and I don't really want it to be that way because I really truly want to hire the best possible people I can. Yeah. So you know these ideas are great. And if you're going to be saying numbers game, do you mean like they want the lowest? Price that will not necessarily no no I mean a numbers game like I need 250 people for a Stadium built.

47:44 Yeah. You get them wherever you, get them. Yeah. Local know if you can so it's like well we do what we do, our best to make it work. No, I get it, I get it. You know, and again, I don't know, I don't know your business. So I'm just throwing ideas out there that just pop into my head and say, hey, let's go grow this thing. You know, what's so other than just the the crazy amount of demand And maybe, you know, some of the attrition that's happened in the labor market or whatever, what are some things that have really changed since covid? What are some things have really changed? Yeah. Like I mentioned before, I think, I think the biggest change that I've seen is is the fact that the labor has an upper hand now that they are demanding more demanding, more money, they're demanding more as far as benefits, but that should be your job harder, right?

48:44 Because across the board. It's changed like whether somebody's getting those labor people directly or they're getting them through you. The price has gone up. The price has gone up their Landing better, you know, higher minimums. When I first started it was for our minimum. Well, I'll the god. They it's pretty much standard is a five hour minimum. So you got five and ten, our work minimums. Yeah. Commanding over to their demanding over time after midnight. Just just a demands from the labor perspective has changed a lot. Yeah. People are not as willing to work for a lot of the things that they work for prior to covid, which has makes my job a challenge. Absolutely. Yeah. Your huh?

49:24 And then I've got a lot of clients that aren't willing to necessarily meet those demands and so that affects my ability to provide them with Quality Labor, right? Yeah. So when a client comes to you, are they basically dictating the price to like are they saying we need 100 people at X dollars. Yeah, I mean it's all negotiable. So, you know, I have my standard my general rates, but if they're say, this is what willing to pay, okay? Well I've got to figure out how I can pay x amount based on what they're paying me, make it all work so that I can keep myself in business and make a problem. Yeah, the living. Yeah, interesting. I mean it sounds like a really interesting but difficult business. I mean every business I guess from the outside looks like, hey Mick, he's just taking money out of these guys Pockets. He's not doing any work.

50:14 Work. But at the end of the day it sounds like your jobs really tough actually and you know, you have to you have to make to sales for every sale because first of all you got to sell the laborer on coming to work with you and then you got to sell the buyer on buying those laborers from you and then you got to do all the background stuff with collecting and paying out the taxes and all the regulatory stuff and insurances. Are you doing health insurance to or when you say insurance, is it liability? Terrence there's liability for now. Health insurance will come to get to that point. But that is, that is a something we would like to offer is health insurance. It's more challenging obviously when it's not full time people but I know there are systems out there that work but yeah, it's amazing to me that health insurance isn't more important. Like you know, whenever we've given people the option to either be an employee and have taxes taken out a W-2 or being a 10 99, a lot of times they take the 1099 approach because they're either shorting the government on taxes or something.

51:21 But even that's changing, you know, like internationally. I know that's become a big issue lately, where, you know, we used to, if we had contractors, who worked for us. In other countries, we paid them and, you know, they're responsible for their own taxes, right? But now, what's happened is, governments are forcing you to have them sign a form that similar. 1099 where their government basically gets, you know, gets a notice saying, hey this person's being paid by a foreign entity and they're not paying taxes. So, you know, darn government. Always figures it out sooner or later, right. Now, I think the biggest thing is in your right.

52:03 You mentioned that, you know, people feel like labor providers might just be trying to take advantage of a laborers, but I don't see it that way. I see it as myself is much much like the Union My job is to just be a liaison between the labor and the production company or the the producer or whatever because it's necessary. I mean if you're going to if you're at or for example you're going all across the country. I mean just the amount of time and effort it would take to hire people and all these different local markets and that's face and not everybody wants to use the union. It's just what it is. Okay that way for as long as I've been in the business I'm sure it's been out of the late.

52:44 Since the beginning, Lettin my eyes, it's about taking care of the laborer first and foremost because if we don't take care of the laborer they're not going to take you know who's going to put the show together. Yeah, the end of the day and that's where my job. I feel like my job and responsibility is to to provide as much value for the labourer so that they can then provide value to the clients. Yeah, it's that. That's, I mean, obviously, if you keep your people happy, they're going to keep your clients happy and Nobody wins at that point. Do you have any intentions or desires or thoughts to expand into like more specialized labor? As far as like whether it's lighting operators video directors of years, I've had ideas on that and in fact on the on the audiovisual side, we do provide operators.

53:36 Okay, so people, we do provide all that, I thought about maybe getting into more specialized like headhunting. If the companies looking for something specific for a tour, I can use my network to maybe find them a lighting designer, or an audio engineer or something. Like Maybe doing that on a contractual basis but we already do. We do provide Specialists, we do that cool interest up. Well, I mean it sounds sounds like a great business. Sounds like a lot of work and I mean I knew it was but I didn't really know that much about it. So have I missing it missed anything that That we should be sharing here or should be talking about. I think we pretty much covered it. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it.

54:24 It sounds like, it sounds like you're onto something really good. And, and I didn't realize your business was only a month old, even though you've been in the industry for 10 years, you obviously know what you're doing. So you know to go out and start your own business, like your site didn't look brand-new to me it looked like you kind of have been in business a while and and know your shit. So yeah, I mean best of luck to you. Well thank you. I appreciate your time and I appreciate being on your show, ya know? And and I you know, keep in touch. You know, keep me updated with what's going on. If I can ever help with anything. You know, I've got a pretty big network of people as well. So how do people get in touch with you, if either a, they're looking for labor or be there, looking to join the industry or become a laborer, just go to my website. Gig life llc.com You can contact me if you're looking for labor and if you want to get on the roster to work with us, then there's also a link as well.

55:26 So just so you just got a lot of form and that gets you still gotta perform. Yep. You put your city, your state, you live in your email phone number and your Specialties and if we get something around your way, will give you a call. Very cool. Well I appreciate you and best of luck in your new business and like I said, keep in touch. All right, appreciate you man up. Thanks.